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Unconspicous Alt Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 27	Posted - 2016.06.22 10:24:24 - [1] - Quote ... immortal words as said by the cat in Tom & Jerry after being blown up :) Or, at least this is the conclusion after reading the quoted blog statements below and having no reply from the devs regarding the monumental lies that caused so many players to spend the equivalent of 2 to 20 months subscription price to build or buy defenseless structures. https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/building-your-citadel-one-block-at-a-time/ "New structure hulls are going to replace Starbases, Outposts and Deployables over time (please refer to the end of this blog for more details)." "While the medium structures should be similar to a fully fitted Starbase" The medium structure ( astrahus ) is far from having the capabilities of a fully fitted starbase. https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/back-into-the-structure/ "Structure combat is more exciting: Structure combat leaves a lot to be desired, as the AI target selection is lacking, while defensive options are limited and not that effective." *As they are now, the citadels are a lot LESS effective in defense compared to POSes.* Before thinking about locking this thread : note that it was written, against my better judgement, at a GM's suggestion after several petitions. I think he really believes, the poor guy, that the devs do not know about this issue and will actually bother to answer.
Warrior Xena Crown Solutions TOGETHER WE STAND 36	Posted - 2016.06.22 10:46:53 - [2] - Quote You must be new if you still believe CCP's posts. They are meant to fool inexperienced players. Just a tad above Jita local. Here is another in the "how great is a citadel" subject that has no correspondence in reality : There are offensive modules, but also modules for remote repair. you can find it here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=478634&find=unread
Khan Wrenth Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation 616	Posted - 2016.06.22 11:11:07 - [3] - Quote I won't believe it! No matter what they say, I KNOW, for fact, that it is not butter. Okay, I don't know what specifically inspired the spawning of this thread. I have some very limited experience defending an Astrahus with my corpmates, so I'll speak on what my experience has taught me. The way this "citadel" thing ended up playing out is like this - for all intents and purposes, the citadel basically acts like a big ship. By that, I mean, you need to have it fitted right, you need someone in there that has the SP, and you need to know what you're doing. When it comes to citadel defense, it's basically a very large, immobile ship, that is only utilized correctly when someone with tactical forethought or experience is manning the guns. By itself, it cannot do much except repel an attack by a small, disorganized, and inexperienced force. Any real commitment to an attacking force, and you have to field a proper defense fleet keeping in mind that the citadel needs to synergize with your fleet. Think of it as fielding a capital ship: you need to have support on field that can help a capital land shots, right? Same deal here. It's a defense force multiplier, not a force unto itself. And yes, not all that great a multiplier either. But this is EvE, people should be expected to be fielding spaceships, it's not a tower defense game. I hope you didn't yourself plop down the isk to invest in these only to be disappointed. It's wise in EvE to let the hilariously rich people play with the new toys and/or mechanics first and figure out the nuances as such. Like, the way Drifters were wrecking ships left and right. If Devs promised some things from the onset, and those promises didn't pan out, please don't direct too much ire at the devs for it. Yes, they should probably scale back promises and expectations a bit, but they have a game to sell, and modesty rarely sells well. Beyond that, they probably had every intention of following through with their (however vague) promises about citadel capability, only to find that making the structures have so much power may have completely broken something. So, after finding this problem, they have to scale back until they find a decent balance point. When things like citadels are released, and people don't riot about overpowered toys suddenly flooding space, that's the result of a lot of behind-the-scenes quality assurance and testing, making sure stuff works properly. And after they get the new toys in the ballpark of where they think they should be, those toys get released to SiSi to see what the creative playerbase can do with them. That live testing gives them the information they need to finally adjust things to their liking. It's a complicated process, lots of things can go wrong along the way, especially power levels of new things that pose a threat to throw everything out of whack. Try to be understanding and patient with the process; as it is not an easy one to go through and impossible to every truly master. Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.

CCP Darwin C C P C C P Alliance 2118	Posted - 2016.06.22 11:19:04 - [4] - Quote Quote: New structure hulls are going to replace Starbases, Outposts and Deployables over time (emphasis mine.) This time has not yet arrived. In the meantime, please feel most welcome to construct a player-owned-starbase our outpost if they fit your needs better. CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Technical Artist, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins

Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 3311	Posted - 2016.06.22 11:20:20 - [5] - Quote Khan Wrenth wrote: If Devs promised some things from the onset, and those promises didn't pan out, please don't direct too much ire at the devs for it. Yes, they should probably scale back promises and expectations a bit, but they have a game to sell, and modesty rarely sells well. Beyond that, they probably had every intention of following through with their (however vague) promises about citadel capability, only to find that making the structures have so much power may have completely broken something. So, after finding this problem, they have to scale back until they find a decent balance point. When things like citadels are released, and people don't riot about overpowered toys suddenly flooding space, that's the result of a lot of behind-the-scenes quality assurance and testing, making sure stuff works properly. And after they get the new toys in the ballpark of where they think they should be, those toys get released to SiSi to see what the creative playerbase can do with them. That live testing gives them the information they need to finally adjust things to their liking. It's a complicated process, lots of things can go wrong along the way, especially power levels of new things that pose a threat to throw everything out of whack. Try to be understanding and patient with the process; as it is not an easy one to go through and impossible to every truly master. Quite frankly, the ire should be directed at the Devs. We repeatedly told them at every stage of development, and gave them the numbers to show that Citadels were monumentally too weak compared to POS. They refused to listen and only ever tested with XL Citadels in Nullsec vs a fleet where they actually are decent due to the doomsday, and ignored all the other sizes & locations with regards to balancing. So yes, the Devs to deserve Ire over Citadels, I've got months left on them since I use 12 month subscriptions, but between this and daily XP grinds being introduced unless something amazing comes I'm going to be gone in a few months since their direction of development has become more and more neglectful of anyone but the null blocs.
Anke Eyrou Hades Sisters 72	Posted - 2016.06.22 11:37:52 - [6] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: So yes, the Devs to deserve Ire over Citadels, I've got months left on them since I use 12 month subscriptions, but between this and daily XP grinds being introduced unless something amazing comes I'm going to be gone in a few months since their direction of development has become more and more neglectful of anyone but the null blocs. If your leaving Can I have your stuff? I expect to get this post deleted or locked. So much for freedom of expression.
Unconspicous Alt Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 28	Posted - 2016.06.22 11:40:05 - [7] - Quote Khan Wrenth wrote: By itself, it cannot do much except repel an attack by a small, disorganized, and inexperienced force. Any real commitment to an attacking force, and you have to field a proper defense fleet keeping in mind that the citadel needs to synergize with your fleet. Think of it as fielding a capital ship: you need to have support on field that can help a capital land shots, right? Same deal here. It's a defense force multiplier, not a force unto itself. And yes, not all that great a multiplier either. However, they have advertised medium citadels as being "replacements for full-fitted POS", and not "a big immobile thing that can be destroyed within half an hour by a 5 BS fleet if you do not field your own ships in defense". I completely understand the need to field defenses against a large fleet. But a medium citadel needs that against a fleet that would have absolutely no chance against a "fully fitted POS". As shown repeatedly in forums, even since this expansion was only on sisi was even in tests, medium and large citadels defenses are completely inadequate against subcap fleets.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 3315	Posted - 2016.06.22 12:02:05 - [8] - Quote Anke Eyrou wrote: If your leaving Can I have your stuff? No, my stuff will be kept on my characters, since even if I let the accounts lapse, I may still come back at some point later if I see the development direction which has caused me to cancel changed. And I want it still there then, since I don't have much stuff :P
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 58	Posted - 2016.06.22 12:06:55 - [9] - Quote TBH my main problem with Citadels is that everything stored inside them is magically 100% safe no matter what, and can even be transported an infinite distance from inside a secluded wormhole to a safe npc-owned station instantaneously if/when the citadel is destroyed. This is 100% against what has up until recently been a fairly core principle in EVE: Anything player owned is at risk, and anything inside a player owned structure/vessel is also at risk. Even in sov space, your items may not get given to the conquerors - but they are locked inside a building you can no longer access. Similarly the POS towers these aim to eventually replace? They destroy or drop every single player owned item inside when they are destroyed. Citadels should either be able to defend themselves or provide 100% safe storage for player items. NOT BOTH. So stop whining and luxuriate in the fact that you have something no EVE player has ever had before - ZERO RISK. (yeah yeah I know the structures cost money - but you can store an infinite value of things inside without risk - and people do so in the ones that actually get used for tax free trading/etc near jita)
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 3315	Posted - 2016.06.22 12:10:13 - [10] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: TBH my main problem with Citadels is that everything stored inside them is magically 100% safe no matter what, and can even be transported an infinite distance from inside a secluded wormhole to a safe npc-owned station instantaneously if/when the citadel is destroyed. 1. No they can't. WH Citadels don't have asset safety. 2. Without asset safety anywhere else, people simply would never put items in them, just like people don't put much into POS's. No, your anecdote of the single POS with value in K space doesn't count, on the whole, people simply don't put stuff in POS, people wouldn't put stuff in Citadels and Markets in Citadels could never happen. 3. Citadels are a replacement for POS, Outposts and intended for players to move out of NPC stations, therefore there has to be a balance of mechanics between the three. 4. 15% of item value is not Zero risk. Effectively you lost 15% of what you had in the Citadel.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 58	Posted - 2016.06.22 12:23:01 - [11] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: TBH my main problem with Citadels is that everything stored inside them is magically 100% safe no matter what, and can even be transported an infinite distance from inside a secluded wormhole to a safe npc-owned station instantaneously if/when the citadel is destroyed. 1. No they can't. WH Citadels don't have asset safety. 2. Without asset safety anywhere else, people simply would never put items in them, just like people don't put much into POS's. No, your anecdote of the single POS with value in K space doesn't count, on the whole, people simply don't put stuff in POS, people wouldn't put stuff in Citadels and Markets in Citadels could never happen. 3. Citadels are a replacement for POS, Outposts and intended for players to move out of NPC stations, therefore there has to be a balance of mechanics between the three. 4. 15% of item value is not Zero risk. Effectively you lost 15% of what you had in the Citadel. Well then in the interest of balance - even the smallest Citadel puts up far more of a fight than an NPC station or a Player Owned Outpost without a defense fleet. So once again my core point remains: Stop whining and enjoy your new OP toy.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 3316	Posted - 2016.06.22 12:33:08 - [12] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Well then in the interest of balance - even the smallest Citadel puts up far more of a fight than an NPC station or a Player Owned Outpost without a defense fleet. So once again my core point remains: Stop whining and enjoy your new OP toy. Except you manage to fail to have any clue how they actually work, and how they are not OP at all. That or in classic EVE style you are actually a Null bloc player posting on an alt to lobby for the game to suit you rather than any care about actually good gameplay. For Citadels to be able to perform their intended purpose they need to be sufficiently dangerous to remove station campers, & to act as a significant force multiplier, otherwise it's simply who has the bigger blob, which is always a terrible mechanic.
Dark Apprentice Home of the brave 0	Posted - 2016.06.22 12:35:56 - [13] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Well then in the interest of balance - even the smallest Citadel puts up far more of a fight than an NPC station or a Player Owned Outpost without a defense fleet. A player owned outpost needs a large capitals/supercap fleet to be destroyed. As i have tested myself on sisi, one medium citadel cannot destroy one bhaalgorn, let alone defend against a fleet of more. As we have seen on the live server, one medium citadel PLUS 2 carriers could not destroy even one ship from a fleet of 11 subcaps containing 3 guardians, two faction battleships and 6 hacs. So its does not perform very good as force multiplier either. I suggest you try it before making a statement.
ube smoked State War Academy Caldari State 7	Posted - 2016.06.22 12:39:08 - [14] - Quote Citadels = Pinatas in space. A total joke when it comes to self defense.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 58	Posted - 2016.06.22 12:50:11 - [15] - Quote Dark Apprentice wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Well then in the interest of balance - even the smallest Citadel puts up far more of a fight than an NPC station or a Player Owned Outpost without a defense fleet. A player owned outpost needs a large capitals/supercap fleet to be destroyed. As i have tested myself on sisi, one medium citadel cannot destroy one bhaalgorn, let alone defend against a fleet of more. As we have seen on the live server, one medium citadel PLUS 2 carriers could not destroy even one ship from a fleet of 11 subcaps containing 3 guardians, two faction battleships and 6 hacs. So its does not perform very good as force multiplier either. I suggest you try it before making a statement. An undefended player owned outpost requires any solo ship to destroy. They don't fight back. Learn 2 EVE. I am also inclined to believe that your fittings on both your citadel and your carriers suck - along with your skills. Though I will grant you that the modern carrier is not designed to fight a heavy RR fleet. You would have done better with almost any other support ships. I have no use for a Citadel, so I see no reason to get one. They don't even draw fights, because despite all your whining about how weak they are, they are everywhere and very few people bother to waste the time destroying them. You also have extremely generous invulnerability windows/etc for your citadels. Plus lets not forget the magical damage-limiting that means you can only deal an extremely limited amount of DPS to the structure. Citadels are in fact CCP's first step in attempting to remove the "who has the bigger blob" factor from structure warfare.... Perhaps I'm not the only one who hasn't bothered to research them. You guys are clearly just grasping at straws to give yourself reasons to whine, and ignoring all of the unprecedented benefits that are being thrown at you with these new structures. HTFU or GTFO. This is EVE.
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 8120	Posted - 2016.06.22 13:12:56 - [16] - Quote Wait, are you telling me CCP spent a lot of time and effort hyping a new feature, ignored substantial player feedback regarding it's shortcomings, and then delivered an incomplete mess that does not work as advertised? Next thing you'll say is that they released it on a day that ends in "y". Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
Unconspicous Alt Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 31	Posted - 2016.06.22 13:13:43 - [17] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: An undefended player owned outpost requires any solo ship to destroy. They don't fight back. Learn 2 EVE. On the contrary. You should read more before saying anything here. Like you showed you have no idea about asset safety, not you show you do not know about outposts. http://www.eve-guides.com/outposts/FAQ.php To take over ( an indestructible ) outpost you first need to destroy the POSes that keep the sov. Dirty Forum Alt wrote: You guys are clearly just grasping at straws to give yourself reasons to whine, and ignoring all of the unprecedented benefits that are being thrown at you with these new structures. HTFU or GTFO. This is EVE. First you show you do not know eve, then you admit you are discussing citadels defenses when you have never tried one, and now you start cursing. Good way to show your real IQ man.
Bad Bobby Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust 1360	Posted - 2016.06.22 13:19:00 - [18] - Quote CCP Darwin wrote: Quote: New structure hulls are going to replace Starbases, Outposts and Deployables over time (emphasis mine.) This time has not yet arrived. And yet you've already removed functionality. You see the problem? You remove stuff before you are in a position to replace it. You made an already sparse part of the game less than it was and expect us to wait for multiple years before you replace it. CCP Darwin wrote: In the meantime, please feel most welcome to construct a player-owned-starbase our outpost if they fit your needs better. Put back all the functionality you removed and that might be an answer. But in reality there is no structure that does all that a POS used to do.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 58	Posted - 2016.06.22 13:20:59 - [19] - Quote Unconspicous Alt wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: An undefended player owned outpost requires any solo ship to destroy. They don't fight back. Learn 2 EVE. On the contrary. You should read more before saying anything here. Like you showed you have no idea about asset safety, not you show you do not know about outposts. http://www.eve-guides.com/outposts/FAQ.php To take over ( an indestructible ) outpost you first need to destroy the POSes that keep the sov. Dirty Forum Alt wrote: You guys are clearly just grasping at straws to give yourself reasons to whine, and ignoring all of the unprecedented benefits that are being thrown at you with these new structures. HTFU or GTFO. This is EVE. First you show you do not know eve, then you admit you are discussing citadels defenses when you have never tried one, and now you start cursing. Good way to show your real IQ man. #1 - Destroy was Dark's word, not mine... #2 - Uh...no...you don't have to kill any POSes.... You have to take down a few other undefended structures... Still doable solo if nobody opposes you, and it doesn't even take all that long with the new mechanics - just the timer game mainly. Perhaps you should read up on sov mechanics if you wish to keep debating this? You are literally citing a non-official game guide from *2008* to support your argument now......... #3 - You seem to be the one who doesn't know EVE... #4 - I don't need to know the defenses - I know they have defenses, and in my opinion that already makes them too powerful given the other benefits. Again - stop whining.
Jack Hayson La Luna Negro inPanic 384	Posted - 2016.06.22 13:23:19 - [20] - Quote Bad Bobby wrote: And yet you've already removed functionality. Which functionality did they remove?
Bad Bobby Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust 1360	Posted - 2016.06.22 13:31:43 - [21] - Quote Jack Hayson wrote: Bad Bobby wrote: And yet you've already removed functionality. Which functionality did they remove? A lot of industry functionality, including the ability to rent out research and industry services to other players. They also made it so that POS no longer act as a driver for industrial activity to spread out in the game. An odd thing to do, but they did it anyway.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 58	Posted - 2016.06.22 13:34:37 - [22] - Quote Jack Hayson wrote: Bad Bobby wrote: And yet you've already removed functionality. Which functionality did they remove? They removed his ability to remotely run jobs with all of his BPOs safely inside a nearby invulnerably NPC station. That is why he is whining (and presumably why he built a citadel) Plus the industry rebalances that make it more open to everyone without a POS needed.
Dartgnan Black Wormholes of Apocrypha TOGETHER WE STAND 1	Posted - 2016.06.22 13:36:59 - [23] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: They removed his ability to remotely run jobs with all of his BPOs safely inside a nearby invulnerably NPC station. That is why he is whining (and presumably why he built a citadel) Yeah mainly because you can run science jobs in a citadel, right ? Dirty Forum Alt wrote: #2 - Uh...no...you don't have to kill any POSes.... You have to take down a few other undefended structures... Still doable solo if nobody opposes you, and it doesn't even take all that long with the new mechanics - just the timer game mainly. lol you become funnier with every post. You are the superhero that can take solo a player outpost... just that you haven't tried yet :) If you were not so bored, the entire eve should fear you ! What did you smoke ?
Soldarius O C C U P Y Test Alliance Please Ignore 1511	Posted - 2016.06.22 13:41:09 - [24] - Quote https://zkillboard.com/system/30000250/ship/35833/ Looks pretty exciting to me. Our Fortizar in P3EN-E gets about 10 kills a day; mostly solo. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 58	Posted - 2016.06.22 13:44:55 - [25] - Quote Soldarius wrote: https://zkillboard.com/system/30000250/ship/35833/ Looks pretty exciting to me. Our Fortizar in P3EN-E gets about 10 kills a day; mostly solo. Impossible. They are 100% defenseless and useless. Ask anybody else here
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 58	Posted - 2016.06.22 13:45:50 - [26] - Quote Dartgnan wrote: lol you become funnier with every post. You are the superhero that can take solo a player outpost... just that you haven't tried yet :) If you were not so bored, the entire eve should fear you ! What did you smoke ? You don't even need a gun anymore... It isn't even combat... Are you people literally this clueless about current game mechanics?
Dartgnan Black Wormholes of Apocrypha TOGETHER WE STAND 1	Posted - 2016.06.22 13:45:52 - [27] - Quote Soldarius wrote: https://zkillboard.com/system/30000250/ship/35833/ Looks pretty exciting to me. Our Fortizar in P3EN-E gets about 10 kills a day; mostly solo. how many are from ships that attack it within the invulnerability window ?
Bad Bobby Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust 1360	Posted - 2016.06.22 13:46:41 - [28] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Jack Hayson wrote: Bad Bobby wrote: And yet you've already removed functionality. Which functionality did they remove? They removed his ability to remotely run jobs with all of his BPOs safely inside a nearby invulnerably NPC station. Well... they made it so you have to do that in an NPC station at a much lower cost than before. That was really a buff from my point of view. Sure, there is risk involved with POS use now, but it's entirely manageable. I see that all as good stuff, I like things getting blown up and things getting risked. Dirty Forum Alt wrote: That is why he is whining (and presumably why he built a citadel) I am not whining, I am merely responding to what I perceive as a disingenuous post by a Dev by pointing out that he's on the wrong side of the argument. I have not built a citadel, I prefer to use someone elses at the moment. Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Plus the industry rebalances that make it more open to everyone without a POS needed. That was a good thing. The fact that they also made it so you could put unlimited volume through a single POS was not a good thing.
Jack Hayson La Luna Negro inPanic 384	Posted - 2016.06.22 13:46:50 - [29] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: They removed his ability to remotely run jobs with all of his BPOs safely inside a nearby invulnerably NPC station. That is why he is whining (and presumably why he built a citadel) Plus the industry rebalances that make it more open to everyone without a POS needed. Ah ok, so it's just some left over salt from the industry revamp and has actually nothing to do with citadels. Was already starting to wonder if I had missed something in the patch notes...
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 3320	Posted - 2016.06.22 14:42:43 - [30] - Quote Soldarius wrote: https://zkillboard.com/system/30000250/ship/35833/ Looks pretty exciting to me. Our Fortizar in P3EN-E gets about 10 kills a day; mostly solo. Oh look, a Null Citadel abusing drag bubbles near a gate is getting frigate kills, and a lone cruiser kill...... Obviously Citadels are balanced in all areas of space. Really? That's the best argument you can come up with when using drag bubbles onto a citadel because CCP didn't think about that abuse of the system that it's a fair representation of how a Citadel can actually defend itself or act as a force multiplier against an attack..... Especially since we've already said Citadels in Null are in a better state than Citadels elsewhere, because they get better defence modules in Null like AOE weapons such as bomb launchers, a smart bomb type weapon, and the XL gets a doomsday. Totally applies to Citadels elsewhere. Thanks for utterly making my point though when you resort to such a weak argument. Jack Hayson wrote: Ah ok, so it's just some left over salt from the industry revamp and has actually nothing to do with citadels. Was already starting to wonder if I had missed something in the patch notes... Try actually reading the actual players reply to you, not the forum alt who is just trolling and abusing everyone.
Pandora Carrollon Kingsman Tailors 381	Posted - 2016.06.22 14:44:22 - [31] - Quote You guys are aware that POS's are still viable and operating... as well as Citadels being the first of many planned structures? They aren't going to pull the older stuff until all the newer stuff is operating properly and balanced properly (which is isn't, and they know it.) You guys also should be aware that the intent is to force players that own these fixtures to actively defend them, right? They also want to generate large conflicts in what would normally be fairly placid areas by having competing structures in those areas. If you actually pay attention to the DEV posts and read the subtexts of their comments you will learn what they are doing and why fairly easy. Their primary comments are subject to being 'true to intent' at that very moment. One week later it could be completely wrong, but the subtext rarely changes. Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game -- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14210	Posted - 2016.06.22 15:03:25 - [32] - Quote This thread boils down to the fact that CCP screwed up a long time ago and allowed really powerful, really useful and totally autonomous (defense wise) POSes to exist, especially in high sec. Now they are fixing that by (slowly) replacing them with structures that you have to actively defend (with real people no less) and that don't totally secure players industrial activities like the old POSes do. It's yet another example of something I've noticed more than a few times in my EVE life: "when you (CCP) give people stuff that is too good, too easy, too useful, you create a firestorm of spergy angst from some people when you take it away, because they feel entitled to it now, since it was you who gave it to them". It's really no different than what was displayed in this thread where people were complaining about the NPC capitals that now show up in null sec, since they have this nasty habit of killing the too easy .afk ratting boats some people have come to rely on for income. Eventually, people will adjust to the new reality where things aren't handed to them like it was in the past (yes, POS defense fall into this catagory, automated "Death Star" defenses are BAD for a game like this). But it would really really really be nice if CCP would learn to not hand out over-powered bullcrap that creates feelings of entitlement in the 1st place.
Dartgnan Black Wormholes of Apocrypha TOGETHER WE STAND 1	Posted - 2016.06.22 15:12:11 - [33] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Now they are fixing that by (slowly) replacing them with structures that you have to actively defend (with real people no less) Because most of the playerbase has nothing else to do in life but stay and babysit bitships and bitstructures :)
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 60	Posted - 2016.06.22 15:18:43 - [34] - Quote Dartgnan wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Now they are fixing that by (slowly) replacing them with structures that you have to actively defend (with real people no less) Because most of the playerbase has nothing else to do in life but stay and babysit bitships and bitstructures :) If you can't be bothered to pull together a defense fleet with over a week's notice AT A TIME YOU GOT TO SPECIFY - you don't deserve to save your structure.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14210	Posted - 2016.06.22 15:23:20 - [35] - Quote Dartgnan wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Now they are fixing that by (slowly) replacing them with structures that you have to actively defend (with real people no less) Because most of the playerbase has nothing else to do in life but stay and babysit bitships and bitstructures :) It's ironic, I post about people feeling like they are entitled to something, and a couple minutes later someone posts proving my point. Thanks.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14210	Posted - 2016.06.22 15:27:54 - [36] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Dartgnan wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Now they are fixing that by (slowly) replacing them with structures that you have to actively defend (with real people no less) Because most of the playerbase has nothing else to do in life but stay and babysit bitships and bitstructures :) If you can't be bothered to pull together a defense fleet with over a week's notice AT A TIME YOU GOT TO SPECIFY - you don't deserve to save your structure. Dirty damn alt, expecting people in high sec (the part of space with the most characters in it) to actually get to know other human beings for the purposes of mutual defense of multi-billion isk structures... WTF is wrong with you sir and/or madam? Don't you know that CCP is obligated to do all the hard work of playing a video game for them (especially since that's what they have been doing thus far with POSes that take care of themselves while they slept) rather than expecting them to gasp actually figure things out? Off the the re-education camp with you!
bardghost Isu Unity of Suns Warped Intentions 26	Posted - 2016.06.22 15:44:38 - [37] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Dartgnan wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Now they are fixing that by (slowly) replacing them with structures that you have to actively defend (with real people no less) Because most of the playerbase has nothing else to do in life but stay and babysit bitships and bitstructures :) If you can't be bothered to pull together a defense fleet with over a week's notice AT A TIME YOU GOT TO SPECIFY - you don't deserve to save your structure. Dirty damn alt, expecting people in high sec (the part of space with the most characters in it) to actually get to know other human beings for the purposes of mutual defense of multi-billion isk structures... WTF is wrong with you sir and/or madam? Don't you know that CCP is obligated to do all the hard work of playing a video game for them (especially since that's what they have been doing thus far with POSes that take care of themselves while they slept) rather than expecting them to gasp actually figure things out? Off the the re-education camp with you! Oh, I'm sorry that High-sec isn't for you to play in. I preferred it up there. Constant war-decs were crap but heh, We were always able to pull together about 20 guys who all had different play-styles and time-zones to defend against 40 T3 cruisers that belong to people that have nothing better to do than spend 50+ mil on a war-dec and then sit in a trade hub everyday picking off the odd person.. Not every fricking person plays this game for the PvP aspect, I'll accept its part of it and I do join in if needed, However not everyone wants to play that way. Hey because something isn't null-sec and isn't PvP must mean that a bunch of no-life idiots must be the ones doing it.. That seems to be the attitude of a lot of people now and its really beginning to **** me off. I've even heard people questioning if CCP take the same stance because all the attention goes to 0.0. and theres never really concern for any of the rest of the playerbase. There's No Kill Like Overkill !
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 60	Posted - 2016.06.22 15:53:32 - [38] - Quote bardghost Isu wrote: I preferred it up there. Constant war-decs were crap but heh, We were always able to pull together about 20 guys who all had different play-styles and time-zones to defend against 40 T3 cruisers that belong to people that have nothing better to do than spend 50+ mil on a war-dec and then sit in a trade hub everyday picking off the odd person.. Not every fricking person plays this game for the PvP aspect, I'll accept its part of it and I do join in if needed, However not everyone wants to play that way. Hey because something isn't null-sec and isn't PvP must mean that a bunch of no-life idiots must be the ones doing it.. That seems to be the attitude of a lot of people now and its really beginning to **** me off. I've even heard people questioning if CCP take the same stance because all the attention goes to 0.0. and theres never really concern for any of the rest of the playerbase. So stop flying to the trade hub for a week - how is that a threat to your Citadel? Also what purpose does your Citadel even serve if you have 20 people who go do their own thing and never use it? This whiny and overly defensive attitude, coupled with frankly disturbing amounts of rage/anger directed towards people who barely even acknowledge your existence at all.... This is why everyone treats you like a no-life idiot.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14214	Posted - 2016.06.22 15:58:38 - [39] - Quote bardghost Isu wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Dartgnan wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Now they are fixing that by (slowly) replacing them with structures that you have to actively defend (with real people no less) Because most of the playerbase has nothing else to do in life but stay and babysit bitships and bitstructures :) If you can't be bothered to pull together a defense fleet with over a week's notice AT A TIME YOU GOT TO SPECIFY - you don't deserve to save your structure. Dirty damn alt, expecting people in high sec (the part of space with the most characters in it) to actually get to know other human beings for the purposes of mutual defense of multi-billion isk structures... WTF is wrong with you sir and/or madam? Don't you know that CCP is obligated to do all the hard work of playing a video game for them (especially since that's what they have been doing thus far with POSes that take care of themselves while they slept) rather than expecting them to gasp actually figure things out? Off the the re-education camp with you! Oh, I'm sorry that High-sec isn't for you to play in. I preferred it up there. Constant war-decs were crap but heh, We were always able to pull together about 20 guys who all had different play-styles and time-zones to defend against 40 T3 cruisers that belong to people that have nothing better to do than spend 50+ mil on a war-dec and then sit in a trade hub everyday picking off the odd person.. Not every fricking person plays this game for the PvP aspect, I'll accept its part of it and I do join in if needed, However not everyone wants to play that way. Hey because something isn't null-sec and isn't PvP must mean that a bunch of no-life idiots must be the ones doing it.. That seems to be the attitude of a lot of people now and its really beginning to **** me off. I've even heard people questioning if CCP take the same stance because all the attention goes to 0.0. and theres never really concern for any of the rest of the playerbase. Why does this "you must want to PVP me" nonsense always come up? Let me set you straight, it you aren't a Guristas Pirate or a member of the Angel Cartel, (or a real player screwing around nin my ratting system), I don't want to shoot you. I don't care what group you join, where or how you play. Simply saying that getting mad (about the fact that an MMO MIGHT require some cooperation between actual people to keep multi-billion) is pretty damn dumb, but par for the course when it comes to high sec people.
bardghost Isu Unity of Suns Warped Intentions 26	Posted - 2016.06.22 16:09:29 - [40] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: bardghost Isu wrote: Oh, I'm sorry that High-sec isn't for you to play in. I preferred it up there. Constant war-decs were crap but heh, We were always able to pull together about 20 guys who all had different play-styles and time-zones to defend against 40 T3 cruisers that belong to people that have nothing better to do than spend 50+ mil on a war-dec and then sit in a trade hub everyday picking off the odd person.. Not every fricking person plays this game for the PvP aspect, I'll accept its part of it and I do join in if needed, However not everyone wants to play that way. Hey because something isn't null-sec and isn't PvP must mean that a bunch of no-life idiots must be the ones doing it.. That seems to be the attitude of a lot of people now and its really beginning to **** me off. I've even heard people questioning if CCP take the same stance because all the attention goes to 0.0. and theres never really concern for any of the rest of the playerbase. Why does this "you must want to PVP me" nonsense always come up? Let me set you straight, it you aren't a Guristas Pirate or a member of the Angel Cartel, (or a real player screwing around nin my ratting system), I don't want to shoot you. I don't care what group you join, where or how you play. Simply saying that getting mad (about the fact that an MMO MIGHT require some cooperation between actual people to keep multi-billion) is pretty damn dumb, but par for the course when it comes to high sec people. I think I probably went a little off topic a minute ago. And I wasn't neccesarily saying that you want me to PvP, But there are groups out there with the attitude that the game is for PvP players only and anyone else are "Fags,Idiots, Etc... I know a lot of People in High-sec that co-operate its not as rare as you think, However the issue that someone is trying to raise is that Citadels against capital fleets can hold there ground in null, Anything above the astrahus can hold its ground in high-sec. But the astrahus is not what CCP had claimed it was going to be. And when you are in a battle there is no point having it there, It doesn't force multiply, If anything it drags you into a locked in fight for something that melts to even a small fleet, It doesn't even have 3/4 of the functionality it was origionally going to have , They are quite honestly pointless for anyone to have unless you just need to refine ore and store some ships, Oh wait a POS can do that for 1/3rd the cost and Doesn't get you excited for upcoming features that get pulled. ( BEFORE Anyone says that stuff is coming, I have seen plenty of modules that have just been scrapped from citadels altogether, What happened to manufacturing in one ? Theres not even the button for it anymore, For me so much of what made them something I wanted has been lost..) There's No Kill Like Overkill !
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 62	Posted - 2016.06.22 16:27:25 - [41] - Quote bardghost Isu wrote: But the astrahus is not what CCP had claimed it was going to be. This seems to be people's primary objection to the citadels. Not that there is anything wrong with them really, just that people EXPECTED more out of them based on preliminary dev posts. What really perplexes me is why anyone is still surprised by this sort of thing.... There are of course hundreds of broken promises/dreams I could use as examples, but there is one that stands out the most as far as how ridiculously excited everyone got over it, and how disappointing it really turned out to be: Walking In Stations Just be glad they are as close to what was advertised as they are. And seriously, stop whining, it isn't going to do you any good. It just makes people want to give you something to cry about.
Smendrik Von'Smendle Nutt 2 Butt 12	Posted - 2016.06.22 16:33:19 - [42] - Quote So you didn't get something as advertised? Oh boo hoo at least just take your 1000km drag bubble and be happy with that!
Joey Bags School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 44	Posted - 2016.06.22 16:36:47 - [43] - Quote My two ISK. The entirety of citadel features and benefits has not released yet and that is why outposts and POS's are still there and deployable. It's a new toy ATM and not a replacement for existing structures. Given what CCP has done in the past and some of their stated goals for the future it is obvious that citadels are meant to work as a SOV mechanic to reduce the amount of SOV many of the super alliances hold. It is a fairly difficult (and it should be difficult) task to conquer SOV from even a moderately sized alliance and practically impossible to dislodge SOV from some of the giant sized ones (NIP agreements and coalitions notwithstanding). You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose but you can't pick your friends nose. Unless you podded them...and collected their corpse.
Chewytowel Haklar KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 189	Posted - 2016.06.22 16:50:19 - [44] - Quote I do not believe the voices in my head, they tell me things see. The voices also tell me that I will be able to make a Stargate to a private part of the universe where no one can hurt me. No more bad touch it said. I DON'T BELIEVE IT!
bardghost Isu Unity of Suns Warped Intentions 26	Posted - 2016.06.22 16:56:38 - [45] - Quote Smendrik Von'Smendle wrote: So you didn't get something as advertised? Oh boo hoo just take your 1000km drag bubble and be happy with that! Well that's the point people are making, That cant be done in High-sec (Not sure about low) a fair few people feel that they've been screwed over by the devs There's No Kill Like Overkill !
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 63	Posted - 2016.06.22 17:01:08 - [46] - Quote bardghost Isu wrote: Smendrik Von'Smendle wrote: So you didn't get something as advertised? Oh boo hoo just take your 1000km drag bubble and be happy with that! Well that's the point people are making, That cant be done in High-sec (Not sure about low) a fair few people feel that they've been screwed over by the devs TBH the only "broken promise" i've even seen in this thread is that it isn't as good as a maxed out large faction tower deathstar POS.... It is the smallest citadel people are whining about (presumably they are too poor for the large one?) - and it is pretty comparable in defenses to a maxed out non-faction small/medium POS... (which are routinely killed with 3-5 ships when people are bored). Plus of course all the other OP features that make it invulnerable 99% of the time and limit damage so 5 ships or 500 do the same damage to it, etc... Did CCP actually specify a large faction deathstar as the POS it would be equivalent to? Or did they do exactly as advertised and make it roughly equivalent to a similarly sized POS?
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14216	Posted - 2016.06.22 17:20:40 - [47] - Quote I think there is a reason most of the complaining about Astrahuses comes from high sec, and that is that the average high sec player has an 'all or nothing' type attitude. The Medium Citadel is perfectly defensible, it just won't let you solo blap a well prepared attacking fleet like a POS can. High Sec players put them up like they do POSes and expect to be able to leverage the game's mechanics to keep them safe. But medium citadels don't work like that. in ALL parts of space they require a defense fleet to ensure their survival. That all or nothing attitude is Pervasive in high sec, you can see it with high sec miners ("even if i tank my mining ship, they will just bring more ganking ships so why bother tanking it, ill just fit for max yield!"), haulers ("I can still be bumped even if i bring a webbing alt, even with the anti-bumping warp mechanic, so CCP needs to do more!") and mission runners ("they are going to gank me anyways, might as well put that gist x type booster on"). And now with high sec Medium Citadel owners... In other words, it's not the nature of the Medium Citadel, it' the natures of the high sec players who complain about them even when they see others of us outside of high sec using them easily. There is no help for that.
Pax Deltari NPC Corp Worst Corp No Doubt 54	Posted - 2016.06.22 17:27:22 - [48] - Quote They did't make it equivalent to an equally priced POS. Also it's interesting how walking in stations has plagued CCP. No one actually gives a **** about being able to walk in stations. It's just a symbol for broken promises.
Unconspicous Alt Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 34	Posted - 2016.06.22 17:31:48 - [49] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: It is the smallest citadel people are whining about (presumably they are too poor for the large one?) - and it is pretty comparable in defenses to a maxed out non-faction small/medium POS... (which are routinely killed with 3-5 ships when people are bored). Did CCP actually specify a large faction deathstar as the POS it would be equivalent to? Or did they do exactly as advertised and make it roughly equivalent to a similarly sized POS? "While the medium structures should be similar to a fully fitted Starbase". However what most people fail to realize is that even the large citadel ( fortizar ), with all the battle rigs, nullsec and skill bonuses, can be easily destroyed by the same number of subcaps ( < 10 ). Might get lucky and destroy the ships that come closer than 20km with the point defense battery but otherwise the 4 antisubcap missiles and one bomb launcher ( can only fit one ) cannot destroy even one faction fitted battleship. Try it on the test server if you dont believe it. If that happens in a w-system that offers bonuses for shield/armor, only very badly fitted ships can be lost against that citadel. More is described here in a test server feedback post that predates the launch of the expansion. My favorite is this one "One of my sivpuls was able to tank a keepstar when confiq to anti sub cap while double webbed and scrammed.. "
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 153	Posted - 2016.06.22 17:49:15 - [50] - Quote Pax Deltari wrote: They did't make it equivalent to an equally priced POS. Also it's interesting how walking in stations has plagued CCP. No one actually gives a **** about being able to walk in stations. It's just a symbol for broken promises. I care about walking in stations. Poor Gadget is starting to put on some space pounds. --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14216	Posted - 2016.06.22 17:53:54 - [51] - Quote Unconspicous Alt wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: It is the smallest citadel people are whining about (presumably they are too poor for the large one?) - and it is pretty comparable in defenses to a maxed out non-faction small/medium POS... (which are routinely killed with 3-5 ships when people are bored). Did CCP actually specify a large faction deathstar as the POS it would be equivalent to? Or did they do exactly as advertised and make it roughly equivalent to a similarly sized POS? "While the medium structures should be similar to a fully fitted Starbase". However what most people here fail to realize is that even the large citadel ( fortizar ), with all the battle rigs, nullsec and skill bonuses, can be easily destroyed by the same number of subcaps ( < 10 ). Might get lucky and destroy the ships that come closer than 20km with the point defense battery but otherwise the 4 antisubcap missiles and one bomb launcher ( can only fit one ) cannot destroy even one faction fitted battleship. Try it on the test server if you dont believe it. If that happens in a w-system that offers bonuses for shield/armor, only very badly fitted ships can be lost against that citadel. More is described here in a test server feedback post that predates the launch of the expansion. My favorite is this one "One of my sivpuls was able to tank a keepstar when confiq to anti sub cap while double webbed and scrammed.. " The TL;DR of this post should be "but I shouldn't have to make friends, the old system let me blap people solo"! At no point do people like this examine the idea that maybe what they could do in the past was the thing that was broken, not the new thing they are complaining about.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 63	Posted - 2016.06.22 17:55:19 - [52] - Quote Pax Deltari wrote: They did't make it equivalent to an equally priced POS. Also it's interesting how walking in stations has plagued CCP. No one actually gives a **** about being able to walk in stations. It's just a symbol for broken promises. CCP does not set prices. Players do. Give it time and the price will fall. It is not CCP's fault that you are an impatient idiot.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 63	Posted - 2016.06.22 18:03:17 - [53] - Quote Unconspicous Alt wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: It is the smallest citadel people are whining about (presumably they are too poor for the large one?) - and it is pretty comparable in defenses to a maxed out non-faction small/medium POS... (which are routinely killed with 3-5 ships when people are bored). Did CCP actually specify a large faction deathstar as the POS it would be equivalent to? Or did they do exactly as advertised and make it roughly equivalent to a similarly sized POS? "While the medium structures should be similar to a fully fitted Starbase". However what most people here fail to realize is that even the large citadel ( fortizar ), with all the battle rigs, nullsec and skill bonuses, can be easily destroyed by the same number of subcaps ( < 10 ). Might get lucky and destroy the ships that come closer than 20km with the point defense battery but otherwise the 4 antisubcap missiles and one bomb launcher ( can only fit one ) cannot destroy even one faction fitted battleship. Try it on the test server if you dont believe it. If that happens in a w-system that offers bonuses for shield/armor, only very badly fitted ships can be lost against that citadel. More is described here in a test server feedback post that predates the launch of the expansion. My favorite is this one "One of my sivpuls was able to tank a keepstar when confiq to anti sub cap while double webbed and scrammed.. " You clearly suck. NOBODY has killed one yet with less than 15 people - and that one wasn't even fit. AT ALL. The average number of players being used is between 50 and 500 (for a Fortizar). The largest citadel is the Keepstar (so far) - and NOBODY HAS KILLED ONE. AT ALL. The only citadel dieing to small fleets AT ALL is the astrahus - and as advertized it is equivalent to a small/medium POS and can be killed by 3-5 people. You are also continuing to ignore the fact that only 5-10 people are allowed to apply damage to your stupid citadel at any given time. Even if they bring 100, 90% of their damage is just magically ignored... If a giant blob wants to kill your Citadel, they should be allowed to apply full dps and wipe it out in 30 seconds. They should also be able to shoot it at any time - not just when you feel it is convenient for you to have it vulnerable. Citadels are broken - they are far too safe and secure. Whiners like you do not deserve these benefits and protections from CCP. I demand a nerf.
Fumya Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 0	Posted - 2016.06.22 18:15:56 - [54] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: You clearly suck. NOBODY has killed one yet with less than 15 people - and that one wasn't even fit. AT ALL. The average number of players being used is between 50 and 500 (for a Fortizar). The largest citadel is the Keepstar (so far) - and NOBODY HAS KILLED ONE. AT ALL. The only citadel dieing to small fleets AT ALL is the astrahus - and as advertized it is equivalent to a small/medium POS and can be killed by 3-5 people. You are also continuing to ignore the fact that only 5-10 people are allowed to apply damage to your stupid citadel at any given time. Even if they bring 100, 90% of their damage is just magically ignored... If a giant blob wants to kill your Citadel, they should be allowed to apply full dps and wipe it out in 30 seconds. They should also be able to shoot it at any time - not just when you feel it is convenient for you to have it vulnerable. Citadels are broken - they are far too safe and secure. Whiners like you do not deserve these benefits and protections from CCP. I demand a nerf. I usually do not write on forums but this time i feel compelled to tell you that you are an idiot. No matter how polite have people replied to you, you resort to cursing and offense towards anyone that does not share your opinion. That is, beside that fact that you have been several times ranting way past the subject of the OP, and also have already proved at least twice that you have no idea what you are talking about. You were presented with evidence but refuse to read it or try it on the test server. You also impose, by a very rude language, your opinion about things you yourself admit have not even try yet. Obviously the OP and the rest of the people here are too polite to tell you in the face, but i cannot refrain myself to inform you that you are by far the biggest imbecile i have seen in these forums until now.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 64	Posted - 2016.06.22 18:20:08 - [55] - Quote Fumya wrote: and also have already proved at least twice that you have no idea what you are talking about. Are you referring to the posts claiming I'm wrong based on mechanics from 2008? You realize that was 8 ***ING YEARS AGO right? The game has changed since then... The fact that you are too pathetically stupid and lazy to look up the current* mechanics does not mean we all travel back in time to the mechanics you think are still in use....seriously.... All that has been proven is that I am 100% right, and you idiots will persist in believing whatever you want to believe regardless of evidence. As for my abrasive manner - I have little patience for idiots. I also feel compelled to inform you that you are one of the idiots here.
Fumya Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 0	Posted - 2016.06.22 18:26:14 - [56] - Quote I am referring to these posts, you imbecile. Learn to treat people in a polite manner so you can look like you have more than 4 neurons in that pitiful brain of yours. Dirty Forum Alt wrote: TBH my main problem with Citadels is that everything stored inside them is magically 100% safe no matter what, and can even be transported an infinite distance from inside a secluded wormhole to a safe npc-owned station An undefended player owned outpost requires any solo ship to destroy.Learn 2 EVE. I am also inclined to believe that your fittings on both your citadel and your carriers suck - along with your skills. You guys are clearly just grasping at straws to give yourself reasons to whine, and ignoring all of the unprecedented benefits that are being thrown at you with these new structures. HTFU or GTFO. It is not CCP's fault that you are an impatient idiot. That is why he is whining (and presumably why he built a citadel) Are you people literally this clueless about current game mechanics? This whiny and overly defensive attitude[...] This is why everyone treats you like a no-life idiot. You clearly suck. Whiners like you do not deserve these benefits and protections from CCP. I demand a nerf.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 64	Posted - 2016.06.22 18:28:18 - [57] - Quote Fumya wrote: I am referring to these posts, you imbecile. Learn to treat people in a polite manner so you can look like you have more than 4 neurons in that pitiful brain of yours. Dirty Forum Alt wrote: TBH my main problem with Citadels is that everything stored inside them is magically 100% safe no matter what, and can even be transported an infinite distance from inside a secluded wormhole to a safe npc-owned station An undefended player owned outpost requires any solo ship to destroy.Learn 2 EVE. I am also inclined to believe that your fittings on both your citadel and your carriers suck - along with your skills. You guys are clearly just grasping at straws to give yourself reasons to whine, and ignoring all of the unprecedented benefits that are being thrown at you with these new structures. HTFU or GTFO. It is not CCP's fault that you are an impatient idiot. That is why he is whining (and presumably why he built a citadel) Are you people literally this clueless about current game mechanics? This whiny and overly defensive attitude[...] This is why everyone treats you like a no-life idiot. You clearly suck. Whiners like you do not deserve these benefits and protections from CCP. I demand a nerf. So I didn't know the items weren't safe inside of a wh - that is the only thing I was wrong about....and it isn't even relevant to the topic at hand...You really are grasping at straws...
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 8123	Posted - 2016.06.22 18:28:30 - [58] - Quote #clawsarecomingout Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
Unconspicous Alt Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 34	Posted - 2016.06.22 18:34:36 - [59] - Quote Fumya wrote: Obviously the OP and the rest of the people here are too polite to tell you in the face, Thank you but please do not bother. Everyone here already has a very good idea about this guy's real intelligence. For the such like him, the best way is to ignore them. They do not write anything worth reading anyways.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 64	Posted - 2016.06.22 18:35:07 - [60] - Quote Doc Fury wrote: #clawsarecomingout Indeed. If people put half this much effort into defending their citadels instead of trying to defend their imaginary grievances against CCP and crying they wouldn't have anything to worry about
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 64	Posted - 2016.06.22 18:40:39 - [61] - Quote Unconspicous Alt wrote: Fumya wrote: Obviously the OP and the rest of the people here are too polite to tell you in the face, Thank you but please do not bother. Everyone here already has a very good idea about this guy's real intelligence. For the such like him, the best way is to ignore them. They do not write anything worth reading anyways. I tell you what, I'm willing to put the time in if you are - eve-mail me on your main character with the location of your astrahus and I'll come over so you can demonstrate its combat capabilities to me. If after said testing I concur that it is weaker than a standard medium POS, I'll publicly post here renouncing my comments. If not, you have to do so yourself. Deal?
Bootis Society of the Hilbert space 1	Posted - 2016.06.22 18:58:02 - [62] - Quote Doc Fury wrote: Wait, are you telling Doc that CCP spent a lot of time and effort hyping a new feature, ignored substantial player feedback regarding it's shortcomings, and then delivered an incomplete mess that does not work as advertised? Next thing you'll say is that they released it on a day that ends in "y". LMFAO!
Pandora Carrollon Kingsman Tailors 382	Posted - 2016.06.22 19:23:14 - [63] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: I think there is a reason most of the complaining about Astrahuses comes from high sec, and that is that the average high sec player has an 'all or nothing' type attitude. The Medium Citadel is perfectly defensible, it just won't let you solo blap a well prepared attacking fleet like a POS can. High Sec players put them up like they do POSes and expect to be able to leverage the game's mechanics to keep them safe. But medium citadels don't work like that. in ALL parts of space they require a defense fleet to ensure their survival. That all or nothing attitude is Pervasive in high sec, you can see it with high sec miners ("even if i tank my mining ship, they will just bring more ganking ships so why bother tanking it, ill just fit for max yield!"), haulers ("I can still be bumped even if i bring a webbing alt, even with the anti-bumping warp mechanic, so CCP needs to do more!") and mission runners ("they are going to gank me anyways, might as well put that gist x type booster on"). And now with high sec Medium Citadel owners... In other words, it's not the nature of the Medium Citadel, it' the natures of the high sec players who complain about them even when they see others of us outside of high sec using them easily. There is no help for that. Jenn, you've been giving good advice but stereotyping all HiSec players as entitled idiots doesn't help. As one of those HiSec idiots, I feel anything but entitled. The only real benefit I'm getting from HiSec is a reduction of risk allowing me to fit ships more effectively to purpose. War Dec mayhem generally limits the utility of what you're trying to imply is the case in HiSec, it isn't. A War Dec almost immediately turns HiSec into NullSec for the two parties involved. Most HiSec players realize this. What is true is that players really don't know how to defend a Citadel yet, especially the small Astrahaus. It is not, and was not, intended to be an equal to a POS as has been stated many times already. The Simple Reality: If you are a HiSec corp with an Astrahaus, and you are under War Dec, you must have a fleet defense available any time the Citadel is in it's vulnerable window. If there is no War Dec on you, your Citadel is pretty darned safe in HiSec. There... even us HiSec idiots can understand that... entitled or not! Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game -- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 65	Posted - 2016.06.22 19:50:20 - [64] - Quote Pandora Carrollon wrote: Jenn, you've been giving good advice but stereotyping all HiSec players as entitled idiots doesn't help. Some of us have bittervet trained to level 5. I personally have it at level 6 Pandora Carrollon wrote: As one of those HiSec idiots, I feel anything but entitled. The only real benefit I'm getting from HiSec is a reduction of risk allowing me to fit ships more effectively to purpose. War Dec mayhem generally limits the utility of what you're trying to imply is the case in HiSec, it isn't. A War Dec almost immediately turns HiSec into NullSec for the two parties involved. Most HiSec players realize this. You are a minority in my experience. Pandora Carrollon wrote: What is true is that players really don't know how to defend a Citadel yet, especially the small Astrahaus. It is not, and was not, intended to be an equal to a POS as has been stated many times already. The Simple Reality: If you are a HiSec corp with an Astrahaus, and you are under War Dec, you must have a fleet defense available any time the Citadel is in it's vulnerable window. If there is no War Dec on you, your Citadel is pretty darned safe in HiSec. There... even us HiSec idiots can understand that... entitled or not! A good summary. o7
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 6192	Posted - 2016.06.22 20:48:52 - [65] - Quote Citadels were advertised as the first of the new structures, designed to be the safest (asset recovery system), and primarily function as offices. The Fortizar is best compared to a Gallente Outpost, and there is no equivalent for the other two sizes. When compared to a player-owned starbase (POS) used as a base of operations, citadels are definitely a functionality improvement. Anyone that has lived out of arrays in w-space will surely agree. [I lived in w-space for nearly my first 3 years.] As for the perceived weakness of citadels, the vast majority of destroyed citadels has been during their first repair timer, when citadels are the weakest and completely defenseless. Fish in a barrel are more defensive. When operational, the contained assets have been recoverable, unlike when losing a POS. Personally, I could sit watching citadel flak cannons obliterating random small fleets all day. Citadels falling to organized concerted efforts, is definitely an improvement over invulnerable outposts. At that I have to state that CCP delivered as advertised, and that I'm eager to see the new industry (fall) and mining (winter) structures, as well as the others (e.g. medium and large stargate BPOs are in the SiSi database). Until then, the bulk of POS functionality won't exist. About the only thing I do hope CCP consider for the future, are SMALLER structures, that are intended to be more temporary. An Astrahaus is definitely a superior replacement for my small reprocessing POS, but I honestly think it is overkill for that role.
Sustrai Aditua Intandofisa 312	Posted - 2016.06.22 20:55:09 - [66] - Quote Soldarius wrote: https://zkillboard.com/system/30000250/ship/35833/ Looks pretty exciting to me. Our Fortizar in P3EN-E gets about 10 kills a day; mostly solo. Hilarious. If we get chased by zombies, I'm tripping you.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 3332	Posted - 2016.06.22 22:03:23 - [67] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: The only citadel dieing to small fleets AT ALL is the astrahus - and as advertized it is equivalent to a small/medium POS and can be killed by 3-5 people. Except has has been specifically quoted in this thread by multiple people already, it was advertised as equal to a L POS. And it's not equal to a M Pos with guns at all, maybe a small POS. This is directly against what CCP said, and the Citadel was also meant to act as a force multiplier helping the defence fleet hit well above it's size. This also has not happened. The L & XL are also similarly gimped in highsec, no-one has attacked the ones near Jita because they belong to the same groups that run around smashing everyone else's toys. It's nothing to do with entitlement, Jenn has just turned into a broken record on that front with no mind to what the actual complaint is, and is actually to do with actually wanting a structure which is useful and matches CCP's claims as to how it will help defence fleets in all areas of space. Living in Null should not be compulsory to get anywhere in EVE.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 66	Posted - 2016.06.22 22:25:24 - [68] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: The only citadel dieing to small fleets AT ALL is the astrahus - and as advertized it is equivalent to a small/medium POS and can be killed by 3-5 people. Except has has been specifically quoted in this thread by multiple people already, it was advertised as equal to a L POS. And it's not equal to a M Pos with guns at all, maybe a small POS. This is directly against what CCP said, and the Citadel was also meant to act as a force multiplier helping the defence fleet hit well above it's size. This also has not happened. The L & XL are also similarly gimped in highsec, no-one has attacked the ones near Jita because they belong to the same groups that run around smashing everyone else's toys. It's nothing to do with entitlement, Jenn has just turned into a broken record on that front with no mind to what the actual complaint is, and is actually to do with actually wanting a structure which is useful and matches CCP's claims as to how it will help defence fleets in all areas of space. Living in Null should not be compulsory to get anywhere in EVE. Actually everyone keeps just saying "a POS" - as if there were only 1 type in the entire game. And while I know that is the direction we are heading with the new structures, it is NOT true of the old ones. Unless I've missed something in the walls of ranting from you and your ilk, NOBODY ever specified a large one, least of all CCP. Do you actually have a link to that dev post? Also, how far before the release was the post? early dev work? just before release? We already know you guys are trying to live 8 years in the past in 2008, so please BE SPECIFIC. Clearly you haven't killed enough medium POSes to know how weak they really are. A Citadel is roughly the equivalent of having a sieged dreadnaught on your side, but with a bit more dps and tank. In high sec. If that isn't enough for you, too bad. Some force multipliers are bigger than others - just because an astrahus can't counter-balance a full heavy armor gang that could take down the average large POS does NOT mean it isn't acting as a force multiplier. It just isn't as big of a multiplier as you want it to be. The massively positive kill ratios of all citadel types larger than the astrahus (which tbh I'm blaming on the fact that all the noobs and morons like you are using them) is ample proof that they do work as force multipliers when used correctly. Additionally, unlike POSes, the citadels don't have fixed stats. They are only as good as YOU FIT THEM TO BE. And only as good as YOUR SKILL AT CONTROLLING THEM. A good analogy would perhaps be that a good merc in a faction fit machariel can kill your entire corporation - but YOU in your faction fit missioning machariel will die to his assault frigate every time. They are only as good as their fit and their pilot allow them to be. If you aren't getting good results out of the equipment, there is a good chance it is YOUR FAULT for sucking at EVE. Personally, I can't find a single Fortizar kill in high sec since their release. And the number of Astrahus kills is pretty low given how many citadels have already sprung up. Stats aside, the biggest defense you have with these citadels is the fact that since none of the items stored in them can ever drop, the only reward for an annoying 2 weeks of war + timers is the module drop from the citadel itself - so most PvP groups have simply decided they aren't worth bothering with. As such, they (once again) don't need any combat defenses. Nobody even wants to kill them in high sec for the most part. Leading me, once again, to my core point: S T O P - W H I N I N G
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 66	Posted - 2016.06.22 23:00:16 - [69] - Quote For the record, I actually went and read the dev blog linked in the OP, and it turns out that he missed an important part of the quote. The full quote is as follows: CCP Dev Team: Team Game of Drones wrote: We want to cover a very broad price tag with new structures. While the medium structures should be similar to a fully fitted Starbase... CCP Dev Team: Team Game of Drones wrote: Medium Structure hulls will cost around 350-700m ISK in materials to build. And looking at the materials required in the handy TABLE they provided, a miracle occurred and they DID NOT CHANGE. So, if you weren't so impatient, the final researched product, once demand settles, is only going to cost 350-700 million isk. CCP made no mention whatsoever of the combat capabilities being in any way related to or similar to any POS of any kind. EVER. Thus proving that you are all ranting and raving not because CCP lied to you - but because you clearly CAN NOT READ. Q. E. D. edit: And since a Large Control Tower with no defenses of any kind costs 5-600 million isk - this is in fact the cost equivalent of a fully fitted out *MEDIUM* tower.
Captain Tardbar Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 1147	Posted - 2016.06.23 03:49:08 - [70] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: The only citadel dieing to small fleets AT ALL is the astrahus - and as advertized it is equivalent to a small/medium POS and can be killed by 3-5 people. Except has has been specifically quoted in this thread by multiple people already, it was advertised as equal to a L POS. And it's not equal to a M Pos with guns at all, maybe a small POS. This is directly against what CCP said, and the Citadel was also meant to act as a force multiplier helping the defence fleet hit well above it's size. This also has not happened. The L & XL are also similarly gimped in highsec, no-one has attacked the ones near Jita because they belong to the same groups that run around smashing everyone else's toys. It's nothing to do with entitlement, Jenn has just turned into a broken record on that front with no mind to what the actual complaint is, and is actually to do with actually wanting a structure which is useful and matches CCP's claims as to how it will help defence fleets in all areas of space. Living in Null should not be compulsory to get anywhere in EVE. Yeah. I can't remember, but I think I made my sig because of Jenn or people who used that word too much. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
DeMichael Crimson Republic University Minmatar Republic 55533	Posted - 2016.06.23 07:11:14 - [71] - Quote Chewytowel Haklar wrote: Unconspicous Alt wrote: DO NOT BELIEVE IT ... immortal words as said by the cat in Tom & Jerry after being blown up :) I do not believe the voices in my head, they tell me things see. The voices also tell me that I will be able to make a Stargate to a private part of the universe where no one can hurt me. No more bad touch it said. I DON'T BELIEVE IT! But............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... I Want To Believe DMC 'The Plan' \| California Eve Players \| Proposal - The Endless Battle
Mike Adoulin Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters 1804	Posted - 2016.06.23 07:53:14 - [72] - Quote I like being able to finally look out the windows and see what's outside. Citadels rock. Everything in EVE is a trap. And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:) You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg. Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14219	Posted - 2016.06.23 12:36:12 - [73] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: It's nothing to do with entitlement, Jenn has just turned into a broken record on that front with no mind to what the actual complaint is, and is actually to do with actually wanting a structure which is useful and matches CCP's claims as to how it will help defence fleets in all areas of space. Living in Null should not be compulsory to get anywhere in EVE. How does null have anything to do with it, other than the fact that in null (and low and WH space) people don't actually put up structures they cannot defend. I think that's the main point. One of the side effects of the protections of high sec is that the people who play there exclusively sometimes don't learn key lessons about the game, because high sec's mechanics up till now have shielded them from having to learn, unlike the rest of EVE space were you learn or go broke. What's worse is their tendency to put the blame on others (like CCP) rather than themselves , fostering this false and juvenile feeling of 'oppression' like we see in the above quoted comment. CCP has said for a long time that they were moving the game away from NPC based protections and more towards player actions. This is the real unspoken issue here, these high sec players (again, notice that the ONLY people complaining or in high sec) have hidden behind the npc's skirts (in forms like CONCORD and automated POS defenses) for so long that the idea of CCP correcting these mistakes and making players do things for themselves ticks them off. Thus this thread. Medium Citadels work fine, I named out 1st one in Vale of the Silent and it's still there, because we defend it.. If you can't provide a small remote repping or logi supported covering force or don't have the isk reserves to hire mercenaries to do that, don't put them up in the 1st place. Invest in a Fortizar instead, none of those have been killed in high sec as far as I'm concerned. But whatever you do, for BoB's sake stop whining and drop that entitled (omg there's that word again) attitude.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 68	Posted - 2016.06.23 12:43:48 - [74] - Quote Captain Tardbar wrote: Yeah. I can't remember, but I think I made my sig because of Jenn or people who used that word too much. I have not until this point used the word "entitlement" in any of my posts. I'm even willing to agree with you that perhaps Jenn does over-use it some - and generalizes a bit far, since of course not everyone in high sec is like that. As previously mentioned, this is a classic symptom of advanced bittervet syndrome - which tends to be an unavoidable product of playing EVE long term. This doesn't mean that Jenn is wrong however, merely that he is speaking in general/stereotypical terms and ignoring the exceptions/outliers. General usage aside however, in THIS instance people are literally complaining because they didn't get something that THEY WERE NEVER PROMISED. It was NEVER EVEN HINTED AT. They just ASSUMED that they were ENTITLED to it. And that, my good sir, is in fact the very definition of ENTITLEMENT.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14219	Posted - 2016.06.23 12:50:38 - [75] - Quote For the record I've never ever said "everyone in high sec". However I think we all know that there is a 'high sec only/casual only/solo only/ME only" class that lives mostly (not exclusively) in high sec. Those are the ones I'm talking about, and not even all of them because I personally know people like that who don't think the world owes them something.
Unconspicous Alt Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 54	Posted - 2016.06.23 13:46:26 - [76] - Quote Ok posts from brainless highshool bullies aside, my conclusion is the following : At least for now, citadels do NOT replace the POSes in any other regard than large-anchorable-hangars in space. They cannot be used for manufacturing or research. They have nowhere near the defense capabilities of POSes, and any test on sisi ( for people that are interested in something else than exposing their 2 neurons way of thinking without actually trying ) can show that. The reason there are no fortizar kills after the initial vulnerability period is that nobody has attacked one that belongs to a small corporation yet. And most likely there will not be for a time, since most people with brains will research and think twice before investing 20 bil in something they cannot defend. I completely understand the way a citadel works. As a new item in eve, they are fine. They fill a new niche, as better homes for alliances that can put up a defense fleet. As replacement for POSes however, they do not work as indended. Most of the POSes in hisec and w-space belong to very small corporations from 1 to 10 people who never wanted something else, or tried and got tired of CTAs and being hunted in nullsec, or simply do not want pvp. Players who have a busy RL and invest at most 3-5 hours per week in this game. They will rarely, if ever, be able to field even 4-5 ships in defense of their new structures. Also, a weird thing, some of them even take vacations 1-2 weeks at a time and go camping, hiking or relax with their families somewhere where there is no internet access. Who will man their citadel defenses then ? For those players, once the POSes are gone, if they still do not want nullsec, the game is pretty much over. If a large POS could have been destroyed only by an organized fleet of 15-20 people ( and with a good risk of losing some ships ), a citadel is easy prey for any 4-5 man gang. What i cannot get is the need of a noisy part of the eve players to impose their way of thinking and style of playing against the others. They do not understand that some of them simply do not like nullsec and pvp, and, when they fail to convince them, they start using words like "idiots", "whiners" and the such. They gloat when they see a change in the game that makes their life harder, without thinking that, with that part of the playerbase gone, they will have to do the very thing they hate : mining, researching and manufacturing. When i saw in Niarja a bunch of pirates obliterating a freighter, there was one comment on local from the freighter's pilot : "gf" and several from the pirates, most with the same meaning "thanks for the loot, you f***ing carebear loser". You know, nobody is calling you idiots because you do not want to live in hisec. Try show some maturity and respect the other players as they respect you.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 68	Posted - 2016.06.23 13:55:02 - [77] - Quote Unconspicous Alt wrote: What i cannot get is the need of a noisy part of the eve players to impose their way of thinking and style of playing against the others. They do not understand that some of them simply do not like nullsec and pvp, and, when they fail to convince them, they start using words like "idiots", "whiners" and the such. They gloat when they see a change in the game that makes their life harder, without thinking that, with that part of the playerbase gone, they will have to do the very thing they hate : mining, researching and manufacturing. When i saw in Niarja a bunch of pirates obliterating a freighter, there was one comment on local from the freighter's pilot : "gf" and several from the pirates, most with the same meaning "thanks for the loot, you f**ing carebear loser". You know, nobody is calling you idiots because you do not want to live in hisec. Try show some maturity and respect the other players as they respect you. I live in high sec. I haven't always, but over half my EVE life has been spent there, and I live there now. So I assure you, I'm not biased against you because you live in high sec. But I* can't understand why you are complaining that citadels don't replace POSes - since nobody ever said they would... The Mobile Depot did not 100% replace Orcas + Rorquals + Carriers - does that mean we need to start a thread complaining about how awful and useless the Mobile Depot is? I suggest you go back and re-read the dev post on the first page of this thread. Citadels are working exactly as intended. They were never intended to 100% replace POSes + Outposts + NPC stations in 1 new object - they are just the first item in a long list that CCP has released to eventually replace those things. But I suppose the Dev's are just high school bullies as well? Perhaps you should go back to WoW.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14222	Posted - 2016.06.23 14:25:48 - [78] - Quote Unconspicous Alt wrote: Ok posts from brainless highshool bullies aside, this is my conclusion in regards to CCP's blog statements. Team Game of Drones wrote: New structure hulls are going to replace Starbases, Outposts and Deployables over time CCP FAQ wrote: What do the size differences mean for Citadels? Medium sized Citadel structures will be around 5-25km in diameter and are tailored for individual or small groups of players. They will be able to fit some appropriate defenses to offer resistance against most kind of assaults including capital ships. At least for now, citadels do NOT replace the POSes in any other regard than large-anchorable-hangars in space. They cannot be used for manufacturing or research. They have nowhere near the defense capabilities of POSes ( ESPECIALLY for "Individual players" ), and any test on sisi ( for people that are interested in something else than exposing their 2 neurons way of thinking without actually trying ) can show that. The reason there are no fortizar kills after the initial vulnerability period is that nobody has attacked one that belongs to a small corporation yet. And most likely there will not be for a time, since most people with brains will research and think twice before investing 20 bil in something they cannot defend. I completely understand the way a citadel works. As a new item in eve, they are fine. They fill a new niche, as better homes for alliances that can put up a defense fleet. As replacement for POSes however, they do not work as indended. Most of the POSes in hisec and w-space belong to very small corporations from 1 to 10 people who never wanted something else, or tried and got tired of CTAs and being hunted in nullsec, or simply do not want pvp. Players who have a busy RL and invest at most 3-5 hours per week in this game. They will rarely, if ever, be able to field even 4-5 ships in defense of their new structures. Also, a weird thing, some of them even take vacations 1-2 weeks at a time and go camping, hiking or relax with their families somewhere where there is no internet access. Who will man their citadel defenses then ? For those players, once the POSes are gone, if they still do not want nullsec, the game is pretty much over. If a large POS could have been destroyed only by an organized fleet of 15-20 people ( and with a good risk of losing some ships ), a citadel is easy prey for any 4-5 man gang. What i cannot get is the need of a noisy part of the eve players to impose their way of thinking and style of playing against the others. They do not understand that some of them simply do not like nullsec and pvp, and, when they fail to convince them, they start using words like "idiots", "whiners" and the such. They gloat when they see a change in the game that makes their life harder, without thinking that, with that part of the playerbase gone, they will have to do the very thing they hate : mining, researching and manufacturing. When i saw in Niarja a bunch of pirates obliterating a freighter, there was one comment on local from the freighter's pilot : "gf" and several from the pirates, most with the same meaning "thanks for the loot, you f*ing carebear loser". You know, nobody is calling you idiots because you do not want to live in hisec. Try show some maturity and respect the other players as they respect you. Of course some will reply to this post with their usual brainless comments, but, unless i see something worthy to discuss, i will not bother to. I have graduated highschool long ago :) This post is the perfect example of the kinds of high sec people I'm talking about: -Personal issues (but i want to go fishing/camping but can't because of space structures!!!) seen as something CCP needs to fix for them? Check -Preoccupation with the idea that someone doesn't like their "playstyle" because they explained the realities of EVE to them? Check -Rejecting simple logical solutions to their problem (if you can't defend it don't put it up!*) for nonsense 'reasons' that resmeble crying and a feeling of entitlement*? Oh so Check -Defaulting to calling people "bullies" because those people explained that they are being silly? SJW check -Pretending that they speak for "the player base" (and offering up the empty "people will quit the game" threat) rather than being truthful and saying "this is just my personal opinion, but I don't like this"? Double Check -Acting like the problem is pvp or null sec when niether pvp nor null sec has anything to do with it (although they DID choose to play a pvp-centric game btw)? Final ultimate Check. In other words, typical high sec poster. Yea it's a generalization, it just also happens to be true as anyone who spends any time in GD can attest.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 68	Posted - 2016.06.23 14:33:09 - [79] - Quote Since you edited your post after I replied, I'll address this as well: Team Game of Drones wrote: New structure hulls are going to replace Starbases, Outposts and Deployables over time As the dev emphasized for you, the key words are OVER TIME! CCP FAQ wrote: What do the size differences mean for Citadels? Medium sized Citadel structures will be around 5-25km in diameter and are tailored for individual or small groups of players. They will be able to fit some appropriate defenses to offer resistance against most kind of assaults including capital ships. They do this. They hit capital sized ships much better than subcapitals, and they do apply effects to subcapitals as well, though you might derive more from the e-war modules than the capital sized weaponry as a high-sec force multiplier. As previously stated, when fit for damage dealing they are roughly equivalent to a sieged dreadnought, but with more HP and a little more dps... So they are a bit better than having an extra capital ship on your side - even in high sec. Nowhere was anything mentioned that said their abilities would be in any way similar to or related to POS defenses. You just made that up.
Fyt 284 The Stone Cutters Guild Requiem Eternal 17	Posted - 2016.06.23 14:36:27 - [80] - Quote CCP Darwin wrote: Quote: New structure hulls are going to replace Starbases, Outposts and Deployables over time (emphasis mine.) This time has not yet arrived. In the meantime, please feel most welcome to construct a player-owned-starbase our outpost if they fit your needs better. I don't think they ever will to be honest, but I am speaking of one piece of functionality in particular: the ability to store a super capital. Sure you can dock them up in keepstars, but the price point of a keepstar keeps them far out of reach of most alliances, where as right now, I can go out and buy a XLSMA pos w/ faction guns for just over 1b isk. (Yes, I know someone can buy a sitter toon and safe log it off a citadel, but even that is flawed since ships can be bumped off a citadel.)
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 69	Posted - 2016.06.23 14:39:49 - [81] - Quote Fyt 284 wrote: CCP Darwin wrote: Quote: New structure hulls are going to replace Starbases, Outposts and Deployables over time (emphasis mine.) This time has not yet arrived. In the meantime, please feel most welcome to construct a player-owned-starbase our outpost if they fit your needs better. I don't think they ever will to be honest, but I am speaking of one piece of functionality in particular: the ability to store a super capital. Sure you can dock them up in keepstars, but the price point of a keepstar keeps them far out of reach of most alliances, where as right now, I can go out and buy a XLSMA pos w/ faction guns for just over 1b isk. (Yes, I know someone can buy a sitter toon and safe log it off a citadel, but even that is flawed since ships can be bumped off a citadel.) If your alliance can afford a titan, it can afford a keepstar. Particularly as the eventual price is estimated at only around 70 billion isk. I know of at least 2 keepstars already in operation, and neither is owned by a gigantic alliance by any means. Also lets not forget that 1 keepstar replaces an infinite number of XLSMA's. Small groups won't use this - but bigger ones will. edit: Also the fairly major factor that you don't need to own sov to set one up - lets not forget that. Plus it essentially has the combat abilities of an extra fully fit titan (for less isk) - which you can not say of your large pos. It won't be "the same" - but it is actually added functionality already in a lot of ways, not just a replacement.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14222	Posted - 2016.06.23 14:44:28 - [82] - Quote Fyt 284 wrote: CCP Darwin wrote: Quote: New structure hulls are going to replace Starbases, Outposts and Deployables over time (emphasis mine.) This time has not yet arrived. In the meantime, please feel most welcome to construct a player-owned-starbase our outpost if they fit your needs better. I don't think they ever will to be honest, but I am speaking of one piece of functionality in particular: the ability to store a super capital. Sure you can dock them up in keepstars, but the price point of a keepstar keeps them far out of reach of most alliances, where as right now, I can go out and buy a XLSMA pos w/ faction guns for just over 1b isk. (Yes, I know someone can buy a sitter toon and safe log it off a citadel, but even that is flawed since ships can be bumped off a citadel.) The question should be "is it balanced that right now I can secure a 20 billion isk ship that can wreck whole fleets of sub caps by spending a mere 1 bil isk and it will even kill people who try to attack it while I'm away?". I think that if one wants to play with super caps, one should have to invest a lot in it's safety. It's like I said earlier, in the past CCP screwed up and made things too easy/too cheap/too safe to do (and as evidenced from the above quoted post not just in high sec), and now there is this expectation (cough feeling of entitlement* cough*) that that state of affairs will continue. IMO it shouldn't.
Fyt 284 The Stone Cutters Guild Requiem Eternal 17	Posted - 2016.06.23 15:02:27 - [83] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Fyt 284 wrote: CCP Darwin wrote: Quote: New structure hulls are going to replace Starbases, Outposts and Deployables over time (emphasis mine.) This time has not yet arrived. In the meantime, please feel most welcome to construct a player-owned-starbase our outpost if they fit your needs better. I don't think they ever will to be honest, but I am speaking of one piece of functionality in particular: the ability to store a super capital. Sure you can dock them up in keepstars, but the price point of a keepstar keeps them far out of reach of most alliances, where as right now, I can go out and buy a XLSMA pos w/ faction guns for just over 1b isk. (Yes, I know someone can buy a sitter toon and safe log it off a citadel, but even that is flawed since ships can be bumped off a citadel.) If your alliance can afford a titan, it can afford a keepstar. Particularly as the eventual price is estimated at only around 70 billion isk. I know of at least 2 keepstars already in operation, and neither is owned by a gigantic alliance by any means. Also lets not forget that 1 keepstar replaces an infinite number of XLSMA's. Small groups won't use this - but bigger ones will. edit: Also the fairly major factor that you don't need to own sov to set one up - lets not forget that. Plus it essentially has the combat abilities of an extra fully fit titan (for less isk) - which you can not say of your large pos. It won't be "the same" - but it is actually added functionality already in a lot of ways, not just a replacement. Our alliance CAN'T afford a Titan, but we have several super carriers. And you don't need sov to setup a POS or a citadel. Basically what this mandates is "Join up with a mega-coalition that can afford a keepstar", "pay 15 bucks a month and spend 26b isk for a character you can't actually use to do anything", or "Be able to only fly a supercarrier until it dies in a fire, and you are out 30b." None of these choices are decent choices from a gameplay perspective. Also @Jenn : If you look at the nerfs coming to carriers / supers, you'll find that there isn't going to be anymore wrecking of subcap fleets from carriers or supers anymore.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 70	Posted - 2016.06.23 15:15:48 - [84] - Quote Fyt 284 wrote: Our alliance CAN'T afford a Titan, but we have several super carriers. And you don't need sov to setup a POS or a citadel. Basically what this mandates is "Join up with a mega-coalition that can afford a keepstar", "pay 15 bucks a month and spend 26b isk for a character you can't actually use to do anything", or "Be able to only fly a supercarrier until it dies in a fire, and you are out 30b." None of these choices are decent choices from a gameplay perspective. Also @Jenn : If you look at the nerfs coming to carriers / supers, you'll find that there isn't going to be anymore wrecking of subcap fleets from carriers or supers anymore. Well I've never wasted the isk on a super-capital, since I generally fly solo and have no use for one. Interesting insight. However, from everyone I've ever met who tries to use a supercapital in any small group...that is pretty much their experience with current mechanics as well....so it still isn't really a change. Super-caps are just fairly useless without being in a big group - in general. Particularly after the upcoming nerfs you mentioned that are going to remove your current ability to solo-pwn in them. So yeah, it kind of sucks for small groups like you...but you have bigger issues than just citadels.
Dark Apprentice Home of the brave 6	Posted - 2016.06.23 15:41:50 - [85] - Quote I wonder why, if you look at all the threads about this subject, there always are small corporations asking for better defense, while only members of big alliances like goonswarm or tapi are jamming fists into their mouths ? [ refraining from telling again to monsieur all-too-present here what his babbling actually shows about his iq ] "i am always right and you all idiots are wrong" / "i know all about citadels but never tried one" / "i know all about supercaps but never had one" / "quit whining ( because i cannot take my eyes of this thread and i forbid you to whine )" / "citadels are not supposed to replace POSes YET ( ouch but didn't i say "never" a few posts above ? )" / "why do you spend so much effort to try to make your point ( while i have wrote almost half of the text here )" / "people that take vacations do not belong in this game" / "people that do not want to pvp do not belong in this game" etc
Fyt 284 The Stone Cutters Guild Requiem Eternal 17	Posted - 2016.06.23 15:50:36 - [86] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Fyt 284 wrote: Our alliance CAN'T afford a Titan, but we have several super carriers. And you don't need sov to setup a POS or a citadel. Basically what this mandates is "Join up with a mega-coalition that can afford a keepstar", "pay 15 bucks a month and spend 26b isk for a character you can't actually use to do anything", or "Be able to only fly a supercarrier until it dies in a fire, and you are out 30b." None of these choices are decent choices from a gameplay perspective. Also @Jenn : If you look at the nerfs coming to carriers / supers, you'll find that there isn't going to be anymore wrecking of subcap fleets from carriers or supers anymore. Well I've never wasted the isk on a super-capital, since I generally fly solo and have no use for one. Interesting insight. However, from everyone I've ever met who tries to use a supercapital in any small group...that is pretty much their experience with current mechanics as well....so it still isn't really a change. Super-caps are just fairly useless without being in a big group - in general. Particularly after the upcoming nerfs you mentioned that are going to remove your current ability to solo-pwn in them. So yeah, it kind of sucks for small groups like you...but you have bigger issues than just citadels. I normally fly a supercarrier with a small group, where we typically drop them ratting carriers. (we typically have about 5 people in a group): https://zkillboard.com/kill/54707825/ for example. Are you saying that since we don't have a huge group that we should just sell our supers and deal with it? A ship type should not be limited by the size of an alliance in terms of usefulness, that just makes it so megabloc coalitions get more powerful. Hell, if I absolutely needed to (say to make a fuel run) I can drop a small pos from my super, eject, and go about my business with the super remaining relatively safe as long as the pos stayed up. (Not saying that its a good idea, but it is still at least an option) Citadels will eventually remove the ability to do this, and that is NOT a good thing. (Not to mention the whole 24 hours anchoring thing, which makes moving a super safely a LOT more difficult)
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 70	Posted - 2016.06.23 15:56:04 - [87] - Quote Dark Apprentice wrote: I wonder why, if you look at all the threads about this subject, there always are small corporations asking for better defense, while only members of big alliances like goonswarm or tapi are jamming fists into their mouths ? [ refraining from telling again to monsieur all-too-present here what his babbling actually shows about his iq ] "i am always right and you all idiots are wrong" / "i know all about citadels but never tried one" / "i know all about supercaps but never had one" / "quit whining ( because i cannot take my eyes of this thread and i forbid you to whine )" / "citadels are not supposed to replace POSes YET ( ouch but didn't i say "never" a few posts above ? )" / "why do you spend so much effort to try to make your point ( while i have wrote almost half of the text here )" / "people that take vacations do not belong in this game" / "people that do not want to pvp do not belong in this game" etc The name of this character should tell you something...it has nothing better to do than to post excessively upon topics that catch my eye, however mundane they may in fact be. Your litany is fairly incoherent, but I'll attempt to address your points in order: 1) As stated, I have a 1 person corporation in high sec. Not sure why that is so confusing to you all...But thank you for continuing to insist that I, as a solo pilot, have as much combat capability as all 15,000 members of Goonswarm put together. I'm flattered. 2) It is true, I am right, and you are an idiot. 3) Never said I know all about them, I know enough about them 4) See above 5) If you would all quit whining, people wouldn't want to hurt you so much in game our on the forums... 6) Citadels are not supposed to replace POSes. Full Stop. New structures will eventually replace POSes, but not just citadels. Seriously - learn to read... 7) Turns out I'm a nice guy who is willing to share my wisdom to help you guys learn. Not my fault you have your heads shoved so far up your ***es you can't see it or accept it. 8) That wasn't even me who talked about that... 9) Again, not even me....
Dartgnan Black Wormholes of Apocrypha TOGETHER WE STAND 10	Posted - 2016.06.23 15:57:05 - [88] - Quote Dark Apprentice wrote: I wonder why, if you look at all the threads about this subject, there always are small corporations asking for better defense, while only members of big alliances like goonswarm or tapi are jamming fists into their mouths ? [ refraining from telling again to monsieur all-too-present here what his babbling actually shows about his iq ] "i am always right and you all idiots are wrong" / "i know all about citadels but never tried one" / "i know all about supercaps but never had one" / "quit whining ( because i cannot take my eyes off this thread and i forbid you to whine here )" / "citadels are not supposed to replace POSes YET ( ouch but didn't i say "never" a few posts above ? )" / "why do you spend so much effort to try to make your point ( while i have wrote almost half of the text here )" / "people that take vacations do not belong in this game" / "people that do not want to pvp do not belong in this game" / "is better to spend 140 bil for an xl citadel to park your 20 bil supercap than 1 bil for a POS" etc you forgot about "i can solo destroy an outpost"
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 70	Posted - 2016.06.23 15:58:37 - [89] - Quote Dartgnan wrote: Dark Apprentice wrote: I wonder why, if you look at all the threads about this subject, there always are small corporations asking for better defense, while only members of big alliances like goonswarm or tapi are jamming fists into their mouths ? [ refraining from telling again to monsieur all-too-present here what his babbling actually shows about his iq ] "i am always right and you all idiots are wrong" / "i know all about citadels but never tried one" / "i know all about supercaps but never had one" / "quit whining ( because i cannot take my eyes off this thread and i forbid you to whine here )" / "citadels are not supposed to replace POSes YET ( ouch but didn't i say "never" a few posts above ? )" / "why do you spend so much effort to try to make your point ( while i have wrote almost half of the text here )" / "people that take vacations do not belong in this game" / "people that do not want to pvp do not belong in this game" / "is better to spend 140 bil for an xl citadel to park your 20 bil supercap than 1 bil for a POS" etc you forgot about "i can solo destroy an outpost" Once again, the current mechanics allow any solo ship with an entosis link to solo-conquer systems if they are not defended. Stop citing the game mechanics from 2008, they have changed MANY TIMES since then. You are the dumbest person in this entire thread.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 70	Posted - 2016.06.23 16:01:38 - [90] - Quote Fyt 284 wrote: I normally fly a supercarrier with a small group, where we typically drop them ratting carriers. (we typically have about 5 people in a group): https://zkillboard.com/kill/54707825/ for example. Are you saying that since we don't have a huge group that we should just sell our supers and deal with it? A ship type should not be limited by the size of an alliance in terms of usefulness, that just makes it so megabloc coalitions get more powerful. Hell, if I absolutely needed to (say to make a fuel run) I can drop a small pos from my super, eject, and go about my business with the super remaining relatively safe as long as the pos stayed up. (Not saying that its a good idea, but it is still at least an option) Citadels will eventually remove the ability to do this, and that is NOT a good thing. (Not to mention the whole 24 hours anchoring thing, which makes moving a super safely a LOT more difficult) Edit : I forgot to mention, even if we did have the money for a keepstar, how the hell would we keep it alive? As soon as it got out that a small alliance was anchoring a keepstar, every swinging **** around would show up for the anchoring timer, and we'd be completely unable to defend it, whereas a large pos can be put up without anyone even realizing you'd done so. You in fact have the most valid points in this entire thread - even though they aren't really what the OP had in mind. I would advise you to watch carefully what new structures CCP releases in their ongoing attempts to replace existing POSes, outposts, and NPC stations. Please keep in mind that Citadels are not the end of this process, they are just the first of several new structure types - there may be something that replaces this functionality before they are finished. I agree, groups like yours are a minority that may well get screwed over by CCP in this process - but it hasn't happened yet, so your best bet is to try to provide input to avoid it and just enjoy the current mechanics while you have them.
Dartgnan Black Wormholes of Apocrypha TOGETHER WE STAND 10	Posted - 2016.06.23 16:05:08 - [91] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: You are the dumbest person in this entire thread. Takes one to know one :)
Neph Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 336	Posted - 2016.06.23 16:07:12 - [92] - Quote Correct me if I'm wrong, but once tethering tech has been fully implemented, will you not be able to use even medium citadels to protect supercaps? ~ Gariushi YC110 // Midular YC115 // Yanala YC115 ~ GÇ£Sitasutone nabeliwatsa-shogi; Otre Jaitovalte hessami-ettogi useuus sufat. Eika, hakkit garuketsi.GÇ¥ -Yakiya Tovil-Toba-taisoka
Fyt 284 The Stone Cutters Guild Requiem Eternal 18	Posted - 2016.06.23 16:10:16 - [93] - Quote Neph wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but once tethering tech has been fully implemented, will you not be able to use even medium citadels to protect supercaps? While you are still in them, yes (assuming CCP ever adds antibumping). You will not however be able to leave it unless you have an XL.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 71	Posted - 2016.06.23 16:10:30 - [94] - Quote Neph wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but once tethering tech has been fully implemented, will you not be able to use even medium citadels to protect supercaps? I believe you are correct - though he did already address that by stating that you can still be bumped out of tethering range. Not sure if that is true or not, but if it is true then it isn't a very good option for a super-pilot. v0v
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 71	Posted - 2016.06.23 16:30:09 - [95] - Quote Dartgnan wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: You are the dumbest person in this entire thread. Takes one to know one :) Excellent comeback. I haven't heard that one since I was about 12 years old...and it was pretty lame even then. Incidentally, if you want your astrahus to have any defenses....you have to FIT IT.... Seriously...you guys don't even put a single module or rig on your Citadels and you complain about them not defending themselves??? https://zkillboard.com/kill/54543084/
Dartgnan Black Wormholes of Apocrypha TOGETHER WE STAND 10	Posted - 2016.06.23 16:37:19 - [96] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Excellent comeback. I haven't heard that one since I was about 12 years old... oh you mean last month ? Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Incidentally, if you want your astrahus to have any defenses....you have to FIT IT.... Seriously...you guys don't even put a single module or rig on your Citadels and you complain about them not defending themselves??? https://zkillboard.com/kill/54543084/ Well now that i have read about you i would not expect to know about a thing before you talk so knowledgeable about it, so let me humbly tell to the expert : you cannot fit a citadel during the initial vulnerability window or when it takes damage.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 72	Posted - 2016.06.23 16:41:03 - [97] - Quote Dartgnan wrote: Well now that i have read about you i would not expect to know about a thing before you talk so knowledgeable about it, so let me humbly tell to the expert : you cannot fit a citadel during the initial vulnerability window or when it takes damage. I don't particularly care tbh - just found it amusing.
Dark Apprentice Home of the brave 7	Posted - 2016.06.23 16:46:57 - [98] - Quote Dartgnan wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Incidentally, if you want your astrahus to have any defenses....you have to FIT IT.... Seriously...you guys don't even put a single module or rig on your Citadels and you complain about them not defending themselves??? https://zkillboard.com/kill/54543084/ Well now that i have read about you i would not expect to know about a thing before you talk so knowledgeable about it, so let me humbly tell to the expert : you cannot fit a citadel during the initial vulnerability window or when it takes damage. No mate you do not understand : all the citadels destroyed were not fitted because all the owners were simply too idiots, while this guy comes now and enlightens us all. I am very amused how he proves to be an idiot with each one of his posts and he still does not realize how lame he is and continues to do it...
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14227	Posted - 2016.06.23 16:49:43 - [99] - Quote Dartgnan wrote: Well now that i have read about you i would not expect to know about a thing before you talk so knowledgeable about it, so let me humbly tell to the expert : you cannot fit a citadel during the initial vulnerability window or when it takes damage. So your group or someone in it planted a medium citadel in a wormhole without being able to defend it? When my corp planted our 1st Astrahus we made sure we had a bunch of hard core friendly space mofos with us just in case. Makes you stance in this tread make sense though. Those who can, do, while those who can't make forum posts complaining about those who could...
Eli Stan Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 512	Posted - 2016.06.23 16:55:40 - [100] - Quote Regarding citadel combat capabilities: All sizes are monsters against capital ships, even mediums. (Although obviously mediums chew through capitals much more slowly than extra-larges.) If any attacker goes against a citadel with capital ships, they are almost guaranteed to lose more in ISK than the defenders. Against subcaps, a lone medium citadel is about as good or slightly better than a lone dread. They both cost about the same, so that seems reasonable. (In fact before inflation hit citadel construction materials, they were quite a bit less expensive than the dreads they have similar capabilities of.) It's just that lone dreads are unable to break multiple subcap logi, just like citadels are unable to break multiple subcap logi. The problem isn't the capabilities dreads or citadels have against subcaps - it's the strength of subcap logi. CCP has fixed logi issues in capitals via the FAX and triage changes, in the AT by banning more than one logi, but they need to address subcap logi too IMO. Large and extra-large citadels are better against subcaps than mediums obviously, but again are unable to do much against a solid logi wing. If an attacker brings subcap logi, all citadel defenders need a mandatory support fleet. Citadels are new - CCP has been focusing on defect fixes so far. Their balance pass hasn't come yet. CCP may very well decide to increase anti-subcap application. It's too early to start crying about their combat capability or lack thereof. Whether citadels are appropriate replacements for POSes, Outposts, NPC stations and the like - not yet, not entirely. As CCP has said, those things will come "over time."
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 74	Posted - 2016.06.23 16:58:17 - [101] - Quote Dark Apprentice wrote: No mate you do not understand : all the citadels destroyed were not fitted because all the owners were simply too idiots, while this guy comes now and enlightens us all. I am very amused how he proves to be an idiot with each one of his posts and he still does not realize how lame he is and continues to do it... Had you bothered to read my posts you would know by now that I quoted the full quote from the dev post and confirmed that CCP never promised you anything about the combat effectiveness of Citadels at all. Sadly you are all too busy calling me names to actually care about the topic. Once again proving that you are, you guessed it, idiots.
Shayla Etherodyne Delta Laroth Industries Voxis Accord 84	Posted - 2016.06.23 18:13:07 - [102] - Quote Soldarius wrote: https://zkillboard.com/system/30000250/ship/35833/ Looks pretty exciting to me. Our Fortizar in P3EN-E gets about 10 kills a day; mostly solo. Waving around how good is a citadel in a system called "pene" .... I thought it was a joke post. Link to the translation of that word in Google translator: https://translate.google.it/?hl=it#it/en/pene Now I suspect that the name of that system was some Dev joke.
Mara Pahrdi The Order of Anoyia 1135	Posted - 2016.06.23 21:07:00 - [103] - Quote CCP Darwin wrote: Quote: New structure hulls are going to replace Starbases, Outposts and Deployables over time (emphasis mine.) This time has not yet arrived. Wait. What? Are you telling us, that we will eventually get modular POSes an not stationary bait ships with modules? Remove insurance.
Jennifer Maxwell Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 371	Posted - 2016.06.24 21:09:09 - [104] - Quote CCP Darwin wrote: Quote: New structure hulls are going to replace Starbases, Outposts and Deployables over time (emphasis mine.) This time has not yet arrived. In the meantime, please feel most welcome to construct a player-owned-starbase our outpost if they fit your needs better. I'd like to ask you to rethink your guys' decision to make capitals ECM immune. I do believe it was stated before that they weren't going to be immune anymore, and if it was this is obviously going against what was promised. But more than that, ECM is a major defense that citadels have against offending ships, even capitals (or they used to be when you could use ECM). I permajammed a nag that was trying to assault my astrahus, up until they refit for sensor boosters and brought in an opposing fleet. Speaking of fleets, mediums are unable to contend. The application of the missiles is horrible. Entire fighter squads get wiped out in seconds when even a small enemy fleet assigns their drones to kill them. Unless you guys are planning on super buffing citadels, then they are just not strong enough to deal with how people wage war.
Sustrai Aditua Intandofisa 319	Posted - 2016.06.25 20:12:46 - [105] - Quote I BELIEVE! I BELIEVE! If we get chased by zombies, I'm tripping you.
Linus Gorp Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker 275	Posted - 2016.06.25 20:25:40 - [106] - Quote Sustrai Aditua wrote: I BELIEVE! I BELIEVE! Tempelman N wrote: NO NOT BELIVEING! When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Eli Stan Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 515	Posted - 2016.06.25 20:40:01 - [107] - Quote Jennifer Maxwell wrote: I permajammed a nag that was trying to assault my astrahus, up until they refit for sensor boosters and brought in an opposing fleet. How was your Astrahus fit? In the 30 minutes it takes to reinforce one, you should have been able to do enough damage to a seiged dread to kill it.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 88	Posted - 2016.06.25 21:13:39 - [108] - Quote Eli Stan wrote: Jennifer Maxwell wrote: I permajammed a nag that was trying to assault my astrahus, up until they refit for sensor boosters and brought in an opposing fleet. How was your Astrahus fit? In the 30 minutes it takes to reinforce one, you should have been able to do enough damage to a seiged dread to kill it. [sarcasm] Haven't you been paying attention? These people have done EXTENSIVE TESTING and PROVED 100% that the astrahus could not possibly hurt a fly, let alone a dread. No matter what fitting is used, they are weaker than a small POS. [/sarcasm] Seriously though - they probably had it full e-war fit, which would be just neuts in the high slots. Just a guess though
Sustrai Aditua Intandofisa 319	Posted - 2016.06.25 23:34:49 - [109] - Quote Linus Gorp wrote: Sustrai Aditua wrote: I BELIEVE! I BELIEVE! When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate. Mind if I ask, "Huh?" Oh, by the way, "the literate" is plural. The literate are.... "A literate" is singular. A literate is.... When you correct someone's English do it properly. If we get chased by zombies, I'm tripping you.
Eli Stan Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 515	Posted - 2016.06.26 03:51:37 - [110] - Quote Sustrai Aditua wrote: Linus Gorp wrote: Sustrai Aditua wrote: I BELIEVE! I BELIEVE! When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate. Mind if I ask, "Huh?" Oh, by the way, "the literate" is plural. The literate are.... "A literate" is singular. A literate is.... When you correct someone's English do it properly. I suspect it's shortened from "the literate person is..." as opposed to "the literate people are..." or "the literates are..." So singular instead of plural seems more correct to me. YMMV.
Jennifer Maxwell Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 373	Posted - 2016.06.26 05:00:50 - [111] - Quote Eli Stan wrote: Jennifer Maxwell wrote: I permajammed a nag that was trying to assault my astrahus, up until they refit for sensor boosters and brought in an opposing fleet. How was your Astrahus fit? In the 30 minutes it takes to reinforce one, you should have been able to do enough damage to a seiged dread to kill it. Two subcap missiles, two heavy neuts, four ECM modules, damage and powergrid/capacitor. With the supporting fleet my fighters couldn't stay out long enough, and the missiles were being repped through. They could field more caps too, and were seen moving FAX machines in so they could presumably field those, but they were struggling against the dps cap so they chose to bring a carrier instead, the fighters of which I kept killing. The defense timer was just about to tick over about an hour and fifteen minutes after they started since they were struggling to keep the dread locked and I was forcing the rest of what they had off, but then they brought in some friends and that was that.
Dartgnan Black Wormholes of Apocrypha TOGETHER WE STAND 17	Posted - 2016.06.26 06:27:23 - [112] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: [sarcasm] Haven't you been paying attention? These people have done EXTENSIVE TESTING and PROVED 100% that the astrahus could not possibly hurt a fly, let alone a dread. No matter what fitting is used, they are weaker than a small POS. [/sarcasm] Actually you are the one not paying attention, or having a VERY short memory ( no surprises here ). It was mentioned several times that the citadels are very weak against SUB-CAPITALS, while the anti-cap weapons are very efficient.
Dark Apprentice Home of the brave 12	Posted - 2016.06.26 06:32:14 - [113] - Quote Dartgnan wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: [sarcasm] Haven't you been paying attention? These people have done EXTENSIVE TESTING and PROVED 100% that the astrahus could not possibly hurt a fly, let alone a dread. No matter what fitting is used, they are weaker than a small POS. [/sarcasm] Actually you are the one not paying attention, or having a VERY short memory ( no surprises here ). It was mentioned several times that the citadels are very weak against SUB-CAPITALS, while the anti-cap weapons are very efficient. Don't bother mate. We are the "idiots", and he is "the one". He can change everything just by looking at it.
Dartgnan Black Wormholes of Apocrypha TOGETHER WE STAND 17	Posted - 2016.06.26 06:35:31 - [114] - Quote Dark Apprentice wrote: Don't bother mate. We are the "idiots", and he is "the one". He can change everything just by looking at it. Yeah no wonder the devs do not watch these threads. Every time a legitimate problem is raised, one of these guys starts ranting and brings everything to their kindergarten level.
John Volan Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2016.06.26 07:50:58 - [115] - Quote Dartgnan wrote: Dark Apprentice wrote: Don't bother mate. We are the "idiots", and he is "the one". He can change everything just by looking at it. Yeah no wonder the devs do not watch these threads. Every time a legitimate problem is raised, one of these guys starts ranting and brings everything to their kindergarten level. Never argue with idiots, they'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Personally I like the changes because they're broad and sweeping and shake things up, good or bad. As someone who's just come back to the game it makes it exciting to see where it goes from here. Also, cut the Devs some slack, balancing an mmo is incredibly hard at any time but even more so for an established ecosystem like Eve.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 90	Posted - 2016.06.26 16:26:34 - [116] - Quote What "legitimate problem" was raised again? That the devs gave you exactly 100% what they promised with Citadels? The only problems raised in this thread are that you guys are greedy, entitled idiots who expected a lot of things that were never even hinted at. You can persist in calling me names and sticking your heads in the sand - but it doesn't make you any less wrong.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 90	Posted - 2016.06.26 16:28:29 - [117] - Quote As far as the dev's not watching these threads, I turn your attention to page 1: CCP Darwin wrote: Quote: New structure hulls are going to replace Starbases, Outposts and Deployables over time (emphasis mine.) This time has not yet arrived. In the meantime, please feel most welcome to construct a player-owned-starbase our outpost if they fit your needs better. Where the dev in fact told you exactly what I have been telling you, albeit in a nicer, more polite/professional way. I presume the devs are discouraged from insulting their customers - even when the customers are as deserving of insults as you lot.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1852	Posted - 2016.06.26 17:22:11 - [118] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Soldarius wrote: https://zkillboard.com/system/30000250/ship/35833/ Looks pretty exciting to me. Our Fortizar in P3EN-E gets about 10 kills a day; mostly solo. Oh look, a Null Citadel abusing drag bubbles near a gate is getting frigate kills, and a lone cruiser kill...... Obviously Citadels are balanced in all areas of space. Really? That's the best argument you can come up with when using drag bubbles onto a citadel because CCP didn't think about that abuse of the system that it's a fair representation of how a Citadel can actually defend itself or act as a force multiplier against an attack..... Especially since we've already said Citadels in Null are in a better state than Citadels elsewhere, because they get better defence modules in Null like AOE weapons such as bomb launchers, a smart bomb type weapon, and the XL gets a doomsday. Totally applies to Citadels elsewhere. Thanks for utterly making my point though when you resort to such a weak argument. Jack Hayson wrote: Ah ok, so it's just some left over salt from the industry revamp and has actually nothing to do with citadels. Was already starting to wonder if I had missed something in the patch notes... Try actually reading the actual players reply to you, not the forum alt who is just trolling and abusing everyone. I think that pretty much nailed it... Re-quoted as it was such an awesome retort !!!! COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Sustrai Aditua Intandofisa 321	Posted - 2016.06.26 18:10:43 - [119] - Quote Eli Stan wrote: Sustrai Aditua wrote: Linus Gorp wrote: Sustrai Aditua wrote: I BELIEVE! I BELIEVE! When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate. Mind if I ask, "Huh?" Oh, by the way, "the literate" is plural. The literate are.... "A literate" is singular. A literate is.... When you correct someone's English do it properly. I suspect it's shortened from "the literate person is..." as opposed to "the literate people are..." or "the literates are..." So singular instead of plural seems more correct to me. YMMV. LOL, if we got to do English the way it "seems" then we'd all have passed with A+ . Fortunately for civilization, such is not the case. Intention has nothing to do with it. What winds up in print is all there is. Take it from an editor. If we get chased by zombies, I'm tripping you.
Eli Stan Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 516	Posted - 2016.06.26 19:15:31 - [120] - Quote Jennifer Maxwell wrote: Eli Stan wrote: Jennifer Maxwell wrote: I permajammed a nag that was trying to assault my astrahus, up until they refit for sensor boosters and brought in an opposing fleet. How was your Astrahus fit? In the 30 minutes it takes to reinforce one, you should have been able to do enough damage to a seiged dread to kill it. Two subcap missiles, two heavy neuts, four ECM modules, damage and powergrid/capacitor. With the supporting fleet my fighters couldn't stay out long enough, and the missiles were being repped through. They could field more caps too, and were seen moving FAX machines in so they could presumably field those, but they were struggling against the dps cap so they chose to bring a carrier instead, the fighters of which I kept killing. The defense timer was just about to tick over about an hour and fifteen minutes after they started since they were struggling to keep the dread locked and I was forcing the rest of what they had off, but then they brought in some friends and that was that. Ah, yeah, that sort of fit isn't going to do much at all against any committed attacker, I think. The subcap missile launchers are trash against subcaps, doing only about as much damage as one or two battleships which can easily be countered by a few logi, and obviously trash against dreads like the Nag you were fighting. The ECM mods do well to remove four hostile ships from the fight, but that's only temporary unlike actually destroying ships. Finally, heavy neuts have a decent cycle time but take several cycles to cap out anything. Instead, for your next Astrahus try two anti-capital launchers (they would have been able to kill that Nag), an XL neut, and a bomb launcher. For the mids, at least one scram, one web, and one TP - for the final mid you can do either another TP or another web. With web and TP, the anti-cap launchers actually do as much damage against subcaps as the anti-subcap launchers. You'll still lose the Astrahus to a subcap fleet with logi support without getting any kills if you're on your own, but you'll take out enough caps sent against you to at least make your kb not-red if they go that route.
Eli Stan Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 516	Posted - 2016.06.26 19:16:37 - [121] - Quote Sustrai Aditua wrote: Eli Stan wrote: Sustrai Aditua wrote: Linus Gorp wrote: Sustrai Aditua wrote: I BELIEVE! I BELIEVE! When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate. Mind if I ask, "Huh?" Oh, by the way, "the literate" is plural. The literate are.... "A literate" is singular. A literate is.... When you correct someone's English do it properly. I suspect it's shortened from "the literate person is..." as opposed to "the literate people are..." or "the literates are..." So singular instead of plural seems more correct to me. YMMV. LOL, if we got to do English the way it "seems" then we'd all have passed with A+ . Fortunately for civilization, such is not the case. Intention has nothing to do with it. What winds up in print is all there is. Take it from an editor. Can you reference a source to support your claim it should be plural? Sorry, argument via authority doesn't cut it.
Violet Hurst Fedaya Recon 85	Posted - 2016.06.26 19:20:08 - [122] - Quote Eli Stan wrote: Can you reference a source to support your claim it should be plural? Sorry, argument via authority doesn't cut it. ...was about to ask for the same. "A good, a bad and an ugly" just doesn't sound right.
Linus Gorp Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker 276	Posted - 2016.06.26 21:32:45 - [123] - Quote Eli Stan wrote: Sustrai Aditua wrote: Eli Stan wrote: Sustrai Aditua wrote: Linus Gorp wrote: When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate. Mind if I ask, "Huh?" Oh, by the way, "the literate" is plural. The literate are.... "A literate" is singular. A literate is.... When you correct someone's English do it properly. I suspect it's shortened from "the literate person is..." as opposed to "the literate people are..." or "the literates are..." So singular instead of plural seems more correct to me. YMMV. LOL, if we got to do English the way it "seems" then we'd all have passed with A+ . Fortunately for civilization, such is not the case. Intention has nothing to do with it. What winds up in print is all there is. Take it from an editor. Can you reference a source to support your claim it should be plural? Sorry, argument via authority doesn't cut it. The grammar in my signature is correct as is. He's not the first to believe I got it wrong and certainly not the last to be proven wrong in his believe. When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy 10110	Posted - 2016.06.26 21:44:11 - [124] - Quote popcorn Forum lurking is better than most TV dramas How did you Veterans start? The Mustache and Beard Thread
John Volan Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2016.06.26 21:55:48 - [125] - Quote Linus Gorp wrote: ... The grammar in my signature is correct as is. He's not the first to believe I got it wrong and certainly not the last to be proven wrong in his believe. *belief Sorry, couldn't resist.
Linus Gorp Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker 276	Posted - 2016.06.26 22:12:17 - [126] - Quote John Volan wrote: Linus Gorp wrote: ... The grammar in my signature is correct as is. He's not the first to believe I got it wrong and certainly not the last to be proven wrong in his believe. *belief Sorry, couldn't resist. That's what I get for posting in the middle of the night :P When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Eli Stan Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 516	Posted - 2016.06.26 23:02:42 - [127] - Quote 1 AM grammar best grammar.
Linus Gorp Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker 277	Posted - 2016.06.26 23:30:07 - [128] - Quote Eli Stan wrote: 1 AM grammar best grammar. It's the same with writing code, really. When I write it during the day, it works flawlessly. When I write it during the night, I might as well just trash it all and start anew the next day When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Jennifer Maxwell Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 376	Posted - 2016.06.27 00:12:25 - [129] - Quote Eli Stan wrote: Jennifer Maxwell wrote: Eli Stan wrote: Jennifer Maxwell wrote: I permajammed a nag that was trying to assault my astrahus, up until they refit for sensor boosters and brought in an opposing fleet. How was your Astrahus fit? In the 30 minutes it takes to reinforce one, you should have been able to do enough damage to a seiged dread to kill it. Two subcap missiles, two heavy neuts, four ECM modules, damage and powergrid/capacitor. With the supporting fleet my fighters couldn't stay out long enough, and the missiles were being repped through. They could field more caps too, and were seen moving FAX machines in so they could presumably field those, but they were struggling against the dps cap so they chose to bring a carrier instead, the fighters of which I kept killing. The defense timer was just about to tick over about an hour and fifteen minutes after they started since they were struggling to keep the dread locked and I was forcing the rest of what they had off, but then they brought in some friends and that was that. Ah, yeah, that sort of fit isn't going to do much at all against any committed attacker, I think. The subcap missile launchers are trash against subcaps, doing only about as much damage as one or two battleships which can easily be countered by a few logi, and obviously trash against dreads like the Nag you were fighting. The ECM mods do well to remove four hostile ships from the fight, but that's only temporary unlike actually destroying ships. Finally, heavy neuts have a decent cycle time but take several cycles to cap out anything. Instead, for your next Astrahus try two anti-capital launchers (they would have been able to kill that Nag), an XL neut, and a bomb launcher. For the mids, at least one scram, one web, and one TP - for the final mid you can do either another TP or another web. With web and TP, the anti-cap launchers actually do as much damage against subcaps as the anti-subcap launchers. You'll still lose the Astrahus to a subcap fleet with logi support without getting any kills if you're on your own, but you'll take out enough caps sent against you to at least make your kb not-red if they go that route. I didn't actually lose that citadel, they never showed for the second timer because I actually had a small fleet to assist me that time, plus it was an hour later than the last one and they were already complaining a ton about how tired they were the first go around. They were US, and I put the timers into AUTZ cause very few people around that timezone wanted to muster for an unimportant citadel in an unimportant system. It only got attacked because a new group moved in and wanted their new home clean. We eventually negotiated a citadel mutual defense thing. I'll definitely keep your fit on hand, but I'm partial to ECM personally cause I used to be a Falcon/Rook pilot for a long time. Plus, now that it's gotten attacked once, I've moved the timers to a time our main coalition fleet can support. I probably will upgrade to anti cap batteries though.
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 6216	Posted - 2016.06.27 22:12:36 - [130] - Quote Eli Stan wrote: 1 AM grammar best grammar. "Look, lady, I only speak two languages: English, and bad English!" - Korben Dallas
KaarBaak Squirrel Team 365	Posted - 2016.06.27 22:59:13 - [131] - Quote Linus Gorp wrote: Eli Stan wrote: Sustrai Aditua wrote: [quote=Eli Stan][quote=Sustrai Aditua]LOL, if we got to do English the way it "seems" then we'd all have passed with A+ . Fortunately for civilization, such is not the case. Intention has nothing to do with it. What winds up in print is all there is. Take it from an editor. Can you reference a source to support your claim it should be plural? Sorry, argument via authority doesn't cut it. The grammar in my signature is correct as is. He's not the first to believe I got it wrong and certainly not the last to be proven wrong in his belief. The word "being" seems superfluous. Dum Spiro Spero Not getting SP for not killing a rat is like not getting ore for not mining an asteroid.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 95	Posted - 2016.06.27 23:04:08 - [132] - Quote KaarBaak wrote: The word "being" seems superfluous. And yet not grammatically incorrect. Yay English?

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