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Templer Relleg
x13
Privateer Alliance
   |
Posted - 2007.03.08 18:23:00 -
[1]
Well, its a really simpel question.
What do you think about the current state of the rigs ccp?
Here im thinking price wise ofc.
Atm. a price ranging from 10mill to 50+ mil for these things, i think is pretty much too much. I remember that it were stated that rigs is supposed to be affordable. Fitting a module that you cant change onto a ship, that also have massive penalty(Ofc. you can train it to level 5), and cost way more then the normal cruiser itself, im not a big fan of.
So ccp, what do you tink of the way rigs are now? Are you looking into boosting it?
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CrayC
Gallente
CrayC Inc.
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Posted - 2007.03.08 18:29:00 -
[2]
Two hints for ya:
Playerdriven Market.
Rigs are new toys.
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Templer Relleg
x13
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 18:32:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Templer Relleg on 08/03/2007 18:31:30
 Originally by: CrayC
Two hints for ya:
Playerdriven Market.
Rigs are new toys.
O really? Then why did CCP then increase the amount of salvaged materials less then a month i believe it were, after relevations went live? It could just aswell have been because those 2 things you talk about(Yes, i DID take them into consideration)
But if you did your homework, you would notice that the prices of some rigs arent dropping anymore, some are even getting even more expensive, during the last 5 days, according to the market.
Yes, the price have dropped alot since release, but the price doesnt seem to be moving that much. If price stays within a 5mill pricerange of the current, i think its way too much.
Im wondering what ccp thinks.
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Paigan
Amarr
Katsu Corporation
Pure.
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Posted - 2007.03.08 18:37:00 -
[4]
"player driven market" is NOT the holy absolute excuse for all senseless prices.
player driven market only means, that the price adjusts freely according to the drop rate of the production items.
And that is still way too low (and way to uncomfortable to loot, tbh).
With a price from still 10-40mil for even the T1 ones, rigs are only relevant for three groups of people:
- mission runners / PvEers
- capital pilots
- T2 BPO design-error money-printer owners
For the normal all-day-pvp guy, they're still not reasonably usable.
Price for the T1 rigs would have to drop around 5mio, better less, in order to make them relevant at least for BS.
To make them usable on Frigs (that, by some weird cause, need the same type and number of rigs as BSs do), they would have do drop to around 100K.
Just another thing that CCPs completely messed up.
But, as i'm part of group 1 and as well group 2, i can live with it.
--
This game is still in beta stage |
Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
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Posted - 2007.03.08 18:56:00 -
[5]
LOL, I have Tech 1 frigs with up to three rigs fitted on them.
Hell, I LOST a Tech 1 frig with two rigs on it the other day. And it was worth every penny.
------------------
Ironfleet.com
Proposal: Automated Ore Return Vehicles |
Eralus
|
Posted - 2007.03.08 18:56:00 -
[6]
If you think rigs are too expensive, there is one reason for this opinion and one reason only:
You are a poor player.
If you were not a poor player, you would figure out how to use the price of rigs to make yourself some money.
And, who cares if rigs are too expensive for some players to use? There's nothing wrong with that.
This is just another variation of the standard whine:
"(Item X) is too expensive for me to use! CCP should fix it so I can use it!"
For Item X, insert:
Capital Ships
Tech 2 Cruisers
+5 Implants
Rigs
Faction Launchers
etc. etc. etc.
Some items are harder to get than others. Rigs are harder to get than regular mods. That's the way it should be. If you can't afford rigs, WORK HARDER. Or WORK SMARTER.
_____
Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear. |
Paigan
Amarr
Katsu Corporation
Pure.
|
Posted - 2007.03.08 19:02:00 -
[7]
Saying that some stuff is not worth its price does not have anything to do with one's personal wealth.
Instead, is has to do with cost-value ratio.
paying 40mil to make a 200K frig 2% better (overall) is simply beyond any reason.
No matter if one has only 10mil isk, or 10 billion. The ratio stays the same.
A stupid but rich player might not consider it anymore.
A clever player will always consider this.
You, sir, must have a nice way of thinking regarding this point. ^^
--
This game is still in beta stage |
Crydawner
|
Posted - 2007.03.08 19:03:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Eralus
If you think rigs are too expensive, there is one reason for this opinion and one reason only:
You are a poor player.
If you were not a poor player, you would figure out how to use the price of rigs to make yourself some money.
And, who cares if rigs are too expensive for some players to use? There's nothing wrong with that.
This is just another variation of the standard whine:
"(Item X) is too expensive for me to use! CCP should fix it so I can use it!"
For Item X, insert:
Capital Ships
Tech 2 Cruisers
+5 Implants
Rigs
Faction Launchers
etc. etc. etc.
Some items are harder to get than others. Rigs are harder to get than regular mods. That's the way it should be. If you can't afford rigs, WORK HARDER. Or WORK SMARTER.
when i saw the price of a faction missile launcher i just thought "oh well i'll train for a tech II launcher and get the RoF bonus from missile specialisation, and i'll be able to use tech II ammo in it" ^.^
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Jaggeh
Gallente
Furious Angels
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:26:00 -
[9]
rigs are not meant for everyone. its a simple fact.
If the prices drop too far it will no longer be viable for people to 'waste' time collecting salvage except to make for themselves, meaning supply will dry out and the prices will go up.
As rigs are still relatively new the market is STILL balancing and probably wont normalize for another few months, as it is i think most rigs are hitting their desired cost.
Drone rigs on average are 10m each, i dont make them anymore because they arent cost effective for the number of parts required.
If you want a price drop and the supply to remain in tact 2 things are required.
1. Half part usage to contruct the rigs.
2. Double salvage drops.
at that point rigs will be so cheap that people will be using them in everything even a newbie ship 
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Furious Angels are recruiting
Carpe Pugya Pyga - Seize the Buttocks
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Captain Jaikken
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:35:00 -
[10]
I think rigs should come in sizes like everything else. If they were only intended for battleships and hacs and stuff why even give smaller ships rig slots? At the moment theres no reason to use them on frigates or cruisers because the rigs cost a few times what the ship did. If they made rigs come in other sizes that could only be fit on certain ships and requires less parts to build it would make it viable to use rigs on any ship.
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Captain Jaikken
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:39:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Captain Jaikken on 08/03/2007 19:36:22
Originally by: Eralus
If you think rigs are too expensive, there is one reason for this opinion and one reason only:
You are a poor player. Quote:
I'm getting "lern2play" flashbacks of the WoW forums...
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Jaggeh
Gallente
Furious Angels
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:43:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Jaggeh on 08/03/2007 19:41:20
Originally by: Captain Jaikken
I think rigs should come in sizes like everything else. If they were only intended for battleships and hacs and stuff why even give smaller ships rig slots?
ive said it before and ill say it till im blue in the face.
RIGS ARE VIABLE ON EVERY SHIP
make them yourself. if you dont like the cost others charge for something then easy make it yourself. the skills required to make them are the same required to use them and people refusing to make for themselves and cry about cost need to put up or shut up. i make all my own rigs (have yet to buy 1) and i make all the rigs for my corp (who have also yet to buy 1) and i sell rigs to others for 10-15% below the market average in their home area.
i could understand complaints if everything you needed to make them was restricted and hard to get but its not, it just requires effort which you arent willing to put in.
sigh [/soapbox]
---------------------------------------
Furious Angels are recruiting
Carpe Pugya Pyga - Seize the Buttocks
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:45:00 -
[13]
well... balancing between profitable niche for salvagers and "cheap" rigs is an ugly job, certainly...
personally, i'd say 20mil is a good level, and some rigs have reached that, while still leaving ~10-20% markup for dedicated wreckdiggers and producers.
however, the ingredients are out of whack here and there; cap recharge rig vs cap amount rig would be the most famous example: the one with the "weaker" positive bonus (+15%) takes more than twice as many ingredients as the more powerful one with the negative bonus (-15%).
i admit, i never found an approach to understand overall (much) higher requirements for cap amount compared to recharge rate to begin with (cap skills, batteries vs rechargers, now rigs)
anyhow, one way or the other: drop rates seem to be quite ok these days (except for the often mentioned armor plates and the size of metal scrap) - but the recipes could need a (lto of) tweaking here and there
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AvatarADV
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:45:00 -
[14]
Much as I hate to say it, the OP has a bit of a point.
If you look at the salvaged items market, most of the "rig-type-specific" items have plummeted in price, some of which you can barely give away. There are only two classes of (T1) salvaged items that have maintained a relatively high price... melted capacitor consoles (which are the "specific" item for energy grid rigs, the no-downside category), and the "general purpose" salvaged items used in a variety of rig classes. Specifically, burnt logic circuits and fried interface circuits are still selling for 50k+ each, meaning many rigs have a production cost in excess of 10 million even excluding their "individual" item. And those are buy prices, not sell ones!
Yes, most (T1) rigs aren't -that- expensive to produce. Yes, you can get the items for cheaper prices if you're a careful buyer. Yes, there's a sweet chunk of change to be made. (How do you think I paid for my Dom? ;p) And I have to give this much to the devs - there's a low barrier of entry to rig production and salvaging, and practically anybody can play. If you REALLY REALLY want a rig, you can just sock your salvage away until your salvage pile is big enough, then buy a cheap rig BPO and bang it out. So I'm not really complaining per se.
It would be nice to have a bit more diversity in the rig market, such that "undervalued" rigs would have all their salvage components' prices fall to the point where they would be potentially-useful even for cheap ships. However, so long as there's something of a "monoculture" with the parts involved - and there are only two or three T1 rigs that DON'T use burnt logic circuits or fried interface circuits - prices are going to continue to be pulled upwards by people replacing cap rechargers on capital ships.
Presumably there's more of the burnt/fried/tripped/charred drops than a random share would suggest, but they're definitely the limiting factor in rig production at this point. On the other hand, I've been bringing home a bunch of them in the last few days, so maybe it's been resolved in the last patch with the salvage drop reallocation, and the market's just slower to react in the common category because of all the pent-up rig demand? Be interesting to see.
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General Apocalypse
Amarr
The Merchant Marines
Miners With Attitude
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:47:00 -
[15]
Rigs are GREAT the way they are rigt now.
And they are also cheap compared whit what they can offer.
You don't have the money to build them go rat & do missions . I got a friend that's 4 days old and he made 2 rigs worth of parts just from salvaging the newb area . 
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Templer Relleg
x13
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:47:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jaggeh
Edited by: Jaggeh on 08/03/2007 19:41:20
Originally by: Captain Jaikken
I think rigs should come in sizes like everything else. If they were only intended for battleships and hacs and stuff why even give smaller ships rig slots?
ive said it before and ill say it till im blue in the face.
RIGS ARE VIABLE ON EVERY SHIP
make them yourself. if you dont like the cost others charge for something then easy make it yourself. the skills required to make them are the same required to use them and people refusing to make for themselves and cry about cost need to put up or shut up. i make all my own rigs (have yet to buy 1) and i make all the rigs for my corp (who have also yet to buy 1) and i sell rigs to others for 10-15% below the market average in their home area.
i could understand complaints if everything you needed to make them was restricted and hard to get but its not, it just requires effort which you arent willing to put in.
sigh [/soapbox]
Its like saying that the stuff you mine, are free to your self, cos you didnt spend money on it?
But as pointed out, its all about cost efficency.
With the minerals you can mine/salvage, you could build for yourself(People who use the termonlogy that the things you mine yourself are free) at, according to your wallet, no cost.
But you could sell it. So in fact the things that you have mined, have a value. You could just aswell have bought them with isk. In the other case, you payed with your time.
Time is money.
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Templer Relleg
x13
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:50:00 -
[17]
Originally by: General Apocalypse
Rigs are GREAT the way they are rigt now.
And they are also cheap compared whit what they can offer.
You don't have the money to build them go rat & do missions . I got a friend that's 4 days old and he made 2 rigs worth of parts just from salvaging the newb area .
So, im not that poor(I have 1bill, excluding assets). And i dont think that they are that cost effective. The money you spend, versus what you get, is not right.
For the price of one speed rig for instance, i could get over 2 cruisers. I could get like 5-6 vexors!
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Antares Andaris
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:51:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jaggeh
rigs are not meant for everyone. its a simple fact.
True, true
Most of EVE is only affordable for T2 BPO owners.
Who else would fit stuff like faction hardener and rigs on frigs.
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Neon Genesis
Gallente
The Landed Gentry
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:52:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Jaggeh
If the prices drop too far it will no longer be viable for people to 'waste' time collecting salvage except to make for themselves, meaning supply will dry out and the prices will go up.
So surely more people would then salvage and make rigs again? 
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Antares Andaris
|
Posted - 2007.03.08 19:57:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Jaggeh
...
make them yourself.
If you "make them yourself" they are STILL valuable items ranging from
10-50 mil. Just because you make them yourself doesnt mean that
they are "for free".
Considering stuff you build on your own for free is one of the
most stupid ideas one can have in EVE.
This would mean that a looted Estamels invu field is also "free" and
it doesnt matter if you fit it on a frig.
Nobody would think this way when it comes to faction stuff...
so why think that way with other stuff you can loot/mine/just-takes-time-to-get
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Templer Relleg
x13
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:58:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Neon Genesis
Originally by: Jaggeh
If the prices drop too far it will no longer be viable for people to 'waste' time collecting salvage except to make for themselves, meaning supply will dry out and the prices will go up.
So surely more people would then salvage and make rigs again?
Yes. Thats player-driven market in play!
There will ALWAYS be a balance, where theres money, theres people. When theres too many people in the same area trying to do the same work, some people will leave. If then 50% of all the players stop doing rigs, theres a huge profit margin to be found again, and people will make them. At some point, this will balance it, and make it stable.
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Kaptein Trefot
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:59:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Jaggeh
make them yourself. if you dont like the cost others charge for something then easy make it yourself. the skills required to make them are the same required to use them and people refusing to make for themselves and cry about cost need to put up or shut up. i make all my own rigs (have yet to buy 1) and i make all the rigs for my corp (who have also yet to buy 1) and i sell rigs to others for 10-15% below the market average in their home area.
[/quote
The expression 'time is money' comes to mind. For most ppl its hardly any cheaper to make em themselves as the time it takes to do so is isk lost to timewaste.
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Jaggeh
Gallente
Furious Angels
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:08:00 -
[23]
time is money for sure.
if im doing a mission in a battleship it takes me X time to complete without looting.
if i loot in the battleship i have to sacrifice a slot for a tractor making the mission take longer due to lower dps.
so it takes X+1
if i can do the same mission without looting in the battleship, then turn around and loot it in the same time with a destroyer kitted out then im not sinking any time into it and it is essentially free.
---------------------------------------
Furious Angels are recruiting
Carpe Pugya Pyga - Seize the Buttocks
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Templer Relleg
x13
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:12:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Jaggeh
time is money for sure.
if im doing a mission in a battleship it takes me X time to complete without looting.
if i loot in the battleship i have to sacrifice a slot for a tractor making the mission take longer due to lower dps.
so it takes X+1
if i can do the same mission without looting in the battleship, then turn around and loot it in the same time with a destroyer kitted out then im not sinking any time into it and it is essentially free.
That would require a second account, which cost isk unless you pay CC.
But still, the things that you gather, you could sell. So this thing that you think you got for free, could bring you in xx mill 
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:20:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 08/03/2007 20:19:13
Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 08/03/2007 20:18:39
In my opinion, rigs have 3 problems, though overall I like the concept.
1. They aren't balanced among themselves. A few rigs are completely superior to all the rest.
2. Their cost doesn't scale up with ship size. i.e., rigging a frigate and a battleship will set you back the same amount of isk. Unfortunately I don't see any good way around this now without completely overhauling everything.
3. Salvaging and thus rigs are a net addition to grind time in this game. If you use rigs, you're probably grinding more than you were before they existed, whether it's through making them yourself or buying them. (People who are raking in isk from the rig or component market may be a partial exception to this for now.) Nor is salvaging itself particularly interesting in any way. A couple of fixes would be
- Make salvaging a little faster, at least with the right skills and equipment.
- Give rigs a chance, even just 10%, of surviving ship destruction.
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2007.03.08 20:21:00 -
[26]
God. I'm only half way into this thread and already there are arugments which are brain-hurting stupid.
"If rigs are too expensive, make your own"
- The (ISK) value of a rig is determined by the market. A rig is not worth more or less because you made it yourself. Minerals you mine yourself are not free.
"If you can't afford them you are poor"
- As pointed out in another post, rigs being too expensive is a question of cost-effectiveness, not whether an individual can afford them.
"Rigs are not supposed to be for everyone"
- Yes, yes they are. See that tier 1 frigate? See it's rig slots? STFU.
-
If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine. |
The Slayer
Caldari
The Black Rabbits
Fatal Persuasion
|
Posted - 2007.03.08 20:23:00 -
[27]
If you do not think they are worth the price they are currently going for, do not buy them. Enough players DO think they are worth this price tho, which is why the price aint dropping.
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Templer Relleg
x13
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:24:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
"Rigs are not supposed to be for everyone"
- Yes, yes they are. See that tier 1 frigate? See it's rig slots? STFU.
Indeed. Thats what im trying to point out. But as it is now, its not the case.
I also remembering a dev stating that rigs are supposed to be affordable for everybody, and widely used. Just like hardwireings are today(They hardly cost anything, 10mill max), and they give bonuses across all the ships you use, with NO penalty.
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Ker Ching
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:25:00 -
[29]
Can I just say, as a rig producer.........
Get off your lazy arse. Salvage stuff. Buy a BPO (quite cheap and plentiful). Make your own!
The main reason rigs are expensive isn't because the producers are making a killing. It's because of the price salvage is selling for. FICs and ATBs are still going for over 100k per unit. Stick 130-200 in a rig and the price soon adds up.
So, I say again.....BUILD YOUR OWN!
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Brutor Shaun
Minmatar
Freelancers UK Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:27:00 -
[30]
Alt post! Ker Ching is me. Sorry.
My skills
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Templer Relleg
x13
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:27:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Ker Ching
Can I just say, as a rig producer.........
Get off your lazy arse. Salvage stuff. Buy a BPO (quite cheap and plentiful). Make your own!
The main reason rigs are expensive isn't because the producers are making a killing. It's because of the price salvage is selling for. FICs and ATBs are still going for over 100k per unit. Stick 130-200 in a rig and the price soon adds up.
So, I say again.....BUILD YOUR OWN!
You just didnt read the posts, did you?
Because i build my own, they arent worth less then what they got for on the market.
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Brutor Shaun
Minmatar
Freelancers UK Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:29:00 -
[32]
They're worth whatever value you put on your salvaging time. If you salvage with an alt while running missions with your main, the salvage is pretty much 'free'.
My skills
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Templer Relleg
x13
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:31:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Brutor Shaun
They're worth whatever value you put on your salvaging time. If you salvage with an alt while running missions with your main, the salvage is pretty much 'free'.
No, because if i sold them at the market, i could earn xx mill. Yes, its out of the blue, but its still a profit.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:32:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Brutor Shaun
They're worth whatever value you put on your salvaging time. If you salvage with an alt while running missions with your main, the salvage is pretty much 'free'.
But this thread is questioning the ISK value, which is determined by the market.
-
If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine. |
Jinx Barker
GFB Scientific
Interstellar Corporate Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:54:00 -
[35]
T1 Rig Market is fine. I see ample supply of things to build them, and mission runners are really banging stuff out.
My main concern is with T2 Rig components. I recently got involved in invention, hapily invented a T2 Rig BPO - and realised that the it would cost me 500 million ISK to build a T2 Rig (single t2 Rig) vs 40-50 mill for a T1 model.
Again, at 400 mill a pop T2 Rig building is broken and I hold a sincere hope that CCP will address the issue.
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Max Hardcase
Art of War
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:59:00 -
[36]
I could see rigs for specific size classes with reduced build requirements.
Say 40% for frig size stuff ( small weapon rigs, +40 cap, +5 powergrid etc etc ).
And 75% for cruiser sized rigs.
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MrTripps
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.08 21:17:00 -
[37]
While I do think that rigs are too expensive I believe fixing that problem should be left to the market. It doesn't take much in the way of SP to salvage and gobs of ISK can be made from it. Those with lots of SP (and presumably ISK) don't really care that rigs cost so much. In a sense, rigs and salvaging are a form of market based wealth redistribution. Certain drops could be adjusted, but overall I think the system works well.
Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell |
Rudy Metallo
Minmatar
G.H.O.S.T
|
Posted - 2007.03.08 21:19:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Rudy Metallo on 08/03/2007 21:17:26
Originally by: Eralus
If you think rigs are too expensive, there is one reason for this opinion and one reason only:
You are a poor player.
If you were not a poor player, you would figure out how to use the price of rigs to make yourself some money.
And, who cares if rigs are too expensive for some players to use? There's nothing wrong with that.
This is just another variation of the standard whine:
"(Item X) is too expensive for me to use! CCP should fix it so I can use it!"
For Item X, insert:
Capital Ships
Tech 2 Cruisers
+5 Implants
Rigs
Faction Launchers
etc. etc. etc.
Some items are harder to get than others. Rigs are harder to get than regular mods. That's the way it should be. If you can't afford rigs, WORK HARDER. Or WORK SMARTER.
Doesn't justify 10mil prices. 5mil I can understand, maybe even 7.5 for some of the upperends. But Rigs TAKE AWAY from your ship as well as add to it, which should justify a drop in price.
The only things I've ever heard anyone complain about price wise on your list is t2 cruisers and Rigs. As for t2 cruisers, most cost more than t2 BC's. What's wrong with this picture? But that's another subject.
Faction mod prices I can somewhat understand, because they give a lot more stat-wise for t1 skills. But rigs arent from faction rats, or any of that. The salvage is common enough, people just dont have the time nor the patience to sit and wait for the salvaging to be done. Just like some people dont have patience for mining and manufacturing. But you dont see mod prices skyhigh (except for a few t2 mods, but that, again, is a different story).
But no, I dont think CCP should fix it. On the whole, I agree with your argument. The market will adjust accordingly.
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Bigoleed
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Posted - 2007.03.08 21:50:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Bigoleed on 08/03/2007 21:49:56
Originally by: Ker Ching
Can I just say, as a rig producer.........
Get off your lazy arse. Salvage stuff. Buy a BPO (quite cheap and plentiful). Make your own!
The main reason rigs are expensive isn't because the producers are making a killing. It's because of the price salvage is selling for. FICs and ATBs are still going for over 100k per unit. Stick 130-200 in a rig and the price soon adds up.
So, I say again.....BUILD YOUR OWN!
Only person to get it right in the thread so far. Sure - you can argue its still worth xx amount - but its only worth what will be paid - if you dont want to pay it - follow that advice.
On another note - this market is going to crash - um within a week at most IMO. Once it reaches that level - I imagine that CCP can tweak the salvage drop ratio again - if they dont like the price range. Tweaking the economy of newly implemented items must happen slow - that said - I really hope they make the other 90% of the rigs worthwhile.
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Templer Relleg
x13
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 22:02:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Bigoleed
Edited by: Bigoleed on 08/03/2007 21:49:56
Originally by: Ker Ching
Can I just say, as a rig producer.........
Get off your lazy arse. Salvage stuff. Buy a BPO (quite cheap and plentiful). Make your own!
The main reason rigs are expensive isn't because the producers are making a killing. It's because of the price salvage is selling for. FICs and ATBs are still going for over 100k per unit. Stick 130-200 in a rig and the price soon adds up.
So, I say again.....BUILD YOUR OWN!
Only person to get it right in the thread so far. Sure - you can argue its still worth xx amount - but its only worth what will be paid - if you dont want to pay it - follow that advice.
And you are not the only one who got it wrong 
Just because you loot something for free, the item is NOT worthless. It have a real value.
Alot of people in here needs Economics 101
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Clara Lemonte
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.03.08 22:03:00 -
[41]
people should really start to get a grip...
whats with the whole they are not worth 60 mil?
there are people buying them at that prices , so OBVIOUSLY, to SOME, THEY ARE WORTH THAT MUCH.
just because you think they are not worth their price doesnt change that... so you find they are too expensive, fine, you dont ahve to stuff something into these rigslots on your ship...
seems some people still havent grasped the market dynamics... if product X is avaialable at a certain price, you are left with 3 options.
1) buy it if you think its worth it.
2) dont buy it if you think its not worth it
3) moan on some forum on how unfair the price is and wait for a government to regulate the price? HELLO? where do you people live?
sometimes you really gotta wonder at some folks logic....
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.03.08 22:04:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Clara Lemonte
people should really start to get a grip...
whats with the whole they are not worth 60 mil?
there are people buying them at that prices , so OBVIOUSLY, to SOME, THEY ARE WORTH THAT MUCH.
just because you think they are not worth their price doesnt change that... so you find they are too expensive, fine, you dont ahve to stuff something into these rigslots on your ship...
seems some people still havent grasped the market dynamics... if product X is avaialable at a certain price, you are left with 3 options.
1) buy it if you think its worth it.
2) dont buy it if you think its not worth it
3) moan on some forum on how unfair the price is and wait for a government to regulate the price? HELLO? where do you people live?
sometimes you really gotta wonder at some folks logic....
You are confusing personal value, market value and cost-effectiveness.
You are saying the market value is ok because it is determined by the personal value they hold for people, but this thread is about cost-effectiveness, not either of the other 2.
-
If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine. |
Kumu Honua
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Posted - 2007.03.08 22:44:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Kumu Honua on 08/03/2007 22:43:45
The reason for the prices of rigs:
1) Horrible distribution of material requirements. When every single rig needs the same 1 or 2 pieces in quantities of a hundred or so, demand is sky high. Influx of these pieces determine how many can be made and how often.
2) Materials with lower drop rates. Melted Capacitor Consoles are a major example, but also suffer from point #3. If you need 20 of these and market price is 500K per, that's 10m to build not counting the other ~150 pieces you need.
3) Unequal perceived usefulness of rigs. No one buys mining drone rigs because a mining ship generally needs all the cpu it can muster for those lasers, and the rig takes away from that. Thus, no one uses it. Cargohold Optimization and the engineering rigs are also in this category, but for another reason. They either have no penalty, or one that is acceptable for the ship it's used on.
Till those points are addressed (And others in this thread), rigs will not drop a whole lot. Especially for the rigs that are popular.
I would overhaul the entire thing.
Rigs with different sizes.
Spread the wealth on materials required.
Review the bonus/penalties to see if they are balanced.
Adjust the flow of bits and pieces. If something has too much influx, adjust. Too little, adjust.
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Diragi
Strife Mercenaries Inc.
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Posted - 2007.03.08 22:51:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Paigan
paying 40mil to make a 200K frig 2% better (overall) is simply beyond any reason.
No matter if one has only 10mil isk, or 10 billion. The ratio stays the same.
Rigs are way, way better than 2% (if pick the right ones).
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heheheh
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Posted - 2007.03.09 02:03:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Eralus
If you think rigs are too expensive, there is one reason for this opinion and one reason only:
You are a poor player.
If you were not a poor player, you would figure out how to use the price of rigs to make yourself some money.
And, who cares if rigs are too expensive for some players to use? There's nothing wrong with that.
This is just another variation of the standard whine:
"(Item X) is too expensive for me to use! CCP should fix it so I can use it!"
For Item X, insert:
Capital Ships
Tech 2 Cruisers
+5 Implants
Rigs
Faction Launchers
etc. etc. etc.
Some items are harder to get than others. Rigs are harder to get than regular mods. That's the way it should be. If you can't afford rigs, WORK HARDER. Or WORK SMARTER.
strange you must be seeing things because i see whine nowhere, read it again properly this time and try to comprehend the whole post a bit better than you did the first time.
Work smarter ?
what?
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heheheh
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Posted - 2007.03.09 02:05:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Clara Lemonte
sometimes you really gotta wonder at some folks logic....
yep too right,
your logic is incorrect,
just because people pay a price, does not mean that they think its worth it, i dont think beer is worth ú2 a pint, but i still pay it.
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Lachesis Moirae
Anqara Expeditions
The OSS
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Posted - 2007.03.09 02:19:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Kumu Honua
Rigs with different sizes.
Review the bonus/penalties to see if they are balanced. Having the penalty based on the class of rig was lazy.
If these get changed, you need to add 2 more things to that list:
1. Allow rigs to be removed without destroying them. If a module is nerfed for the application you're using it for, you can remove it and use it somewhere else. If a rig is nerfed for the application you're using it in, you're SOL. Either remove it and lose millions (possibly a whole lot more for T2 rigs), or leave it in and have a non-optimum rig setup.
2. Rigs should be in wrecks just like modules. If I wtfpwn a Domi equipped with three C3 rigs, each of them should have a chance of being destroyed or ending up in the wreck.
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Nalar Marnith
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.03.09 02:28:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
i admit, i never found an approach to understand overall (much) higher requirements for cap amount compared to recharge rate to begin with (cap skills, batteries vs rechargers, now rigs)
Simply put, increasing the size of your cap increases the recharge rate by the same amount.
If your cap is 10% larger, and it recharges in the same amount of time, it must recharge 10% more per second.
This means you get a cap recharge AND cap size bonus. Hence batteries > rechargers.
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Shismo
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Posted - 2007.03.09 02:31:00 -
[49]
1. Make salvagers a mid slot item
2. Limit number per ship to 1
3. Increase sucsess rate by 5 times
4. Cut all rig components required down to 1/4rd of the current
5. Alow anyone to make rigs out of the components on the spot, in space, like you would expect a bunch of junk getting thrown togeather to be.
6. Alow rigs to be 'overwriten' (but not removed)- doing this recovers a random amount of the components of the replaced rig
7. When a ship is destroyed rigs have a chance of falling appart and a large/small quantity of the salvage used in them can be regained while salvaging the wreck IN ADDITION to the normal salvage you would get for a destroyed ship - there is also a chance (rare) the entire rig is found as a normal loot item. - this rare chance also applys to rats, who are assumed to also be using rigs.
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Pax Althaleen
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.03.09 02:32:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Ker Ching
Can I just say, as a rig producer.........
Get off your lazy arse. Salvage stuff. Buy a BPO (quite cheap and plentiful). Make your own!
The main reason rigs are expensive isn't because the producers are making a killing. It's because of the price salvage is selling for. FICs and ATBs are still going for over 100k per unit. Stick 130-200 in a rig and the price soon adds up.
So, I say again.....BUILD YOUR OWN!
/Signed...
Check this if you think its way out of line. I made a Rig for a friend of mine - Anti-Thermic Pump I - And when all was said and done It cost Me 17 Million approx. to make the Rig for Him. We then bantered on about Price and We settled on 20 Million ISK.
That means 3 Million profit on a 20 Million ISK Rig.
Simply put, the time it took to gather/salvage those Comps plus the transport of them to My Manufacturing Hub was way over that. Now if You consider that on average I can make 1 to 5 Million ISK/Hour Missioning or Ratting in Low Sec - I lost money or time making that Rig for Him...
Overpriced? Not likely. Efforts such as this in game need to be rewarded or what's the flippin' point...
Like someone has already said - Train up and get some BPOs while You still can, so You can make Your own.
I'm not trying to flame anyone here but c'mon Peeps - Rig making is NOT easy or cheap, and so You MUST be payed for Your time and effort when Manufacturing them for the Comunity at large...
Sincerely and Respectfully,
Pax Althaleen
Holder - House Althaleen |
Nalar Marnith
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.03.09 03:31:00 -
[51]
As I see it rigs are cost effective for BS and similarly priced ships. Not so for anything smaller, and I think that opinion is held by a lot of people here.
I happily paid 20m for a CCC rig. I'll salvage for other rigs I need tho because it's cheaper (I don't make that much ISK/hr, so a few hours salvaging for a rig is cost effective).
Rigs need to drop in price by a LOT to be worth chucking on frigs.
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Vincent Almasy
Gallente
The Underground
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Posted - 2007.03.09 04:29:00 -
[52]
Rig Reason
the price difference in some named units over T1 of the same unit are millions, let alone getting into faction but that is the real difference? Sometimes that difference is less then 10% but the price difference can be 20 or more million a percent.
if you don't like the prices and don't want them, be quiet.
if you don't like the prices but want them, mission grind and make the parts yourself. Time is money so you's making 50k+ on average a salvaged piece.
if you don't care about the price and don't want them, you are already quiet.
if you don't care about the price and want them, you already bought/built one.
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Maeltstome
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Posted - 2007.03.09 04:34:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Eralus
If you think rigs are too expensive, there is one reason for this opinion and one reason only:
You are a poor player.
If you were not a poor player, you would figure out how to use the price of rigs to make yourself some money.
Its 700mil (thats 0.7bil) isk for a cap rig Tech II. That was never the intention.
Now go back to your CNR and ***** more LVL 4's in your priavte little world.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.03.09 04:56:00 -
[54]
It's late, I'm angry and tired.
This thread is full of morons as opposed to reasonable people like the O.P. for instance.
Problem is, you need wrecks to get salvage components, and most "wrecks" generated gave a good deal of ISK to the one "creating" them in the first place, and you have the alternative to either salvage or go destroy more ships... you will do whatever it is that makes you more money.
Therefore, as long as drop rates remain constant, the "basket price" of a typical salvage session will be about the same as how much ISK you could have made ignoring salvage and going hunting again.
The PRICE of the RIG COMPONENTS is determined by the market, depending on WHAT rigs are useful (so which components are used in them and which aren't) and what the "basket price" of a salvage session is... which is a NON-NEGOTIABLE price.
If you make less money by salvaging, you no longer salvage, period.
Well, that unless you're really STUPID or in a special situation, like, for instance, being the newbie that runs behind a corpmate's ratting/missioning operation.
Wether you salvage yourself, buy salvage components from the market, build rigs yourself or buy them ready built... IT DOESN'T MAKE A DAMN DIFFERENCE as the ISK value is the GORRAM SAME, you stupid twits.
As for rigs "not being for everybody", whoever says that one more time after the arguments already presented gets the "absolute freaking moron" thread award.
But in case you missed it, here's some of them again:
FACT 1 : CCP personnel SAID IN THE FORUM when rigs were being first tested on SiSi that their intended purpose was to greatly vary the setups you see in PvP for all classes of ships, ESPECIALLY the smaller/cheaper ones.
FACT 2 : all ships have rig slots. Even T1 frigates. That cost under 300k ISK a piece. Rigs should have comparable prices.
FACT 3 : *MOST* rigs are useless on large ships (or grossly overclassed by a handfull of rigs like CCC/SMC), and a vast majority of rigs only make ANY sense whatsoever on FRIGATES
In closing, a salute to the OP for bringing up this subject up from the grave of "ignored land" yet again... but I fear all of this is in vain, nobody seems to be listening... or whoever listens doesn't have the brain to understand it.
_
MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Templer Relleg
x13
Privateer Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.03.09 06:30:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Akita T
It's late, I'm angry and tired.
This thread is full of morons as opposed to reasonable people like the O.P. for instance.
Problem is, you need wrecks to get salvage components, and most "wrecks" generated gave a good deal of ISK to the one "creating" them in the first place, and you have the alternative to either salvage or go destroy more ships... you will do whatever it is that makes you more money.
Therefore, as long as drop rates remain constant, the "basket price" of a typical salvage session will be about the same as how much ISK you could have made ignoring salvage and going hunting again.
The PRICE of the RIG COMPONENTS is determined by the market, depending on WHAT rigs are useful (so which components are used in them and which aren't) and what the "basket price" of a salvage session is... which is a NON-NEGOTIABLE price.
If you make less money by salvaging, you no longer salvage, period.
Well, that unless you're really STUPID or in a special situation, like, for instance, being the newbie that runs behind a corpmate's ratting/missioning operation.
Wether you salvage yourself, buy salvage components from the market, build rigs yourself or buy them ready built... IT DOESN'T MAKE A DAMN DIFFERENCE as the ISK value is the GORRAM SAME, you stupid twits.
As for rigs "not being for everybody", whoever says that one more time after the arguments already presented gets the "absolute freaking moron" thread award.
But in case you missed it, here's some of them again:
FACT 1 : CCP personnel SAID IN THE FORUM when rigs were being first tested on SiSi that their intended purpose was to greatly vary the setups you see in PvP for all classes of ships, ESPECIALLY the smaller/cheaper ones.
FACT 2 : all ships have rig slots. Even T1 frigates. That cost under 300k ISK a piece. Rigs should have comparable prices.
FACT 3 : *MOST* rigs are useless on large ships (or grossly overclassed by a handfull of rigs like CCC/SMC), and a vast majority of rigs only make ANY sense whatsoever on FRIGATES
In closing, a salute to the OP for bringing up this subject up from the grave of "ignored land" yet again... but I fear all of this is in vain, nobody seems to be listening... or whoever listens doesn't have the brain to understand it.
Fantastic post!
People who flame me: Try and re-read my post. Im asking CCP something. Whatever i think its worth it or not. I sincerely give MY opinion on this topic which is quite clear. But hence the topic title, its says "CCP" in there, so this post is really aimed at getting a dev to answer me, what they think about rigs as it is, and what they are gonna do.
Again, i must thank the quoted post for summing up what we are saying in a fantastic way!
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Awox
Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2007.03.09 07:21:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Paigan
With a price from still 10-40mil for even the T1 ones, rigs are only relevant for three groups of people:
- mission runners / PvEers
- capital pilots
- T2 BPO design-error money-printer owners
For the normal all-day-pvp guy, they're still not reasonably usable.
..
Just another thing that CCPs completely messed up.
But, as i'm part of group 1 and as well group 2, i can live with it.
I'm not in any of those groups, an all-day-pvp guy as you would say. I can afford them just fine. All of my ships are rigged. Even my interceptors, interdictors, assault frigates and battlecruisers are rigged.
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Awox
Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2007.03.09 07:27:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Akita T
But in case you missed it, here's some of them again:
FACT 1 : CCP personnel SAID IN THE FORUM when rigs were being first tested on SiSi that their intended purpose was to greatly vary the setups you see in PvP for all classes of ships, ESPECIALLY the smaller/cheaper ones.
Yeah, and they do that. My small ship setups have varied greatly thanks to the various rigs available. Why haven't yours?
Originally by: Akita T
FACT 2 : all ships have rig slots. Even T1 frigates. That cost under 300k ISK a piece. Rigs should have comparable prices.
Why is that? Some frigates cost more than cruisers and BC even but most frigates cannot kill cruisers let alone battlecruisers. So why should small stuff always be cheap?
Originally by: Akita T
FACT 3 : *MOST* rigs are useless on large ships (or grossly overclassed by a handfull of rigs like CCC/SMC), and a vast majority of rigs only make ANY sense whatsoever on FRIGATES
I'd like a show of hands from everyone who puts CCC on their PvP battleship.. right, not many. Maybe capitals or mission runners, or maybe abaddons who can't hold their cap (lol amarr) those rigs aren't suitable for PvP with the oh so popular nosferatus.
If you think a rig works better on a frigate, keep it on a frigate.. doesn't that make sense?
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EscapeArtist
Caldari
GeoTech
Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.09 07:30:00 -
[58]
In my mind, rigs where suppose to cost a lot less than they do now. I believe I read somewhere maybe a DevBlog or something way before Rev. went live, that they where supposed to be cheap and easy none reusable plug-inÆs for ships... Ergo fetching the same sort of price a normal parts (100-1m isk).
Of course the price will be higher on release, just look at the prices of the tier 3 BS when rev. went live, but at present, I can not see the price of rigs dropping unless the salvage system is changed. I do make my own rigs, but you have to run one hell of a lot of missions to build even a few rigs.
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I am Legend |
Kaptein Trefot
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Posted - 2007.03.09 10:33:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Kaptein Trefot on 09/03/2007 10:30:03
I think the current prices are fine for BS class ships, but it seems rather stupid that the same rigs that fits a BS also fit a fr.
As has already been suggested make them size dependant;
Fr = small rigs
De = med rigs
Cr/BC = large rigs
BS = x-large rigs
Cap ships = cap rigs (shockingly)
Increase the dropping rate and ajust the needed component ratio between the different sized rigs.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.03.09 12:45:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Awox
Some frigates cost more than cruisers and BC even but most frigates cannot kill cruisers let alone battlecruisers. So why should small stuff always be cheap?
REALLY ?
When was the last time you triple-rigged your Rifter, Kestrel, Incursus or Punisher ?
Or for that matter, when did you last time triple-rigged your Vexor, Caracal, Rupture or Maller ?
Wait, you didn't ? And you're only talking T2 SHIPS below battlecruiser class here ?
Well, that would certainly explain it.
Problem is, it's THOSE "dirt cheap" ships rigs were supposed to help most.
And due to the PRICE EFFECTIVENESS, it makes almost no sense to fit out a 0.3-6 mil ship with 30-100 mil worth of rigs only to barely increase its potential, when you could easily buy and fit a higher class ship several times over for that money.
_
MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2007.03.09 12:58:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Shismo
1. Make salvagers a mid slot item
2. Limit number per ship to 1
3. Increase sucsess rate by 5 times
4. Cut all rig components required down to 1/4rd of the current
5. Alow anyone to make rigs out of the components on the spot, in space, like you would expect a bunch of junk getting thrown togeather to be.
6. Alow rigs to be 'overwriten' (but not removed)- doing this recovers a random amount of the components of the replaced rig
7. When a ship is destroyed rigs have a chance of falling appart and a large/small quantity of the salvage used in them can be regained while salvaging the wreck IN ADDITION to the normal salvage you would get for a destroyed ship - there is also a chance (rare) the entire rig is found as a normal loot item. - this rare chance also applys to rats, who are assumed to also be using rigs.
QFT.
I would add to this that rigs, from what I have read, were designed to be a way to adapt any type of ship to a specialisation. Not to give the isk-*****rs and e-bay buyers yet another bit of e-peen. It would be nice for once in the f***ing history of eve that something new was put into the game that you don't have to spend either time (salvaging + buying) or isk (inflated market price) on. I pvp 23/7, although I'm only on for an hour a day max. I can't afford to keep up with market prices on many things, including t2 and faction. Fair enough, I don't always use t2, and i hardly ever use faction. Rigs, however, are not meant to be part of the elite of eve. So don't put them there.
/rant off
On the bright side I fully expect rigs to be down to 5 mil a pop soon. And with any luck the others apart from CCCs, speed rigs, and tanking ones, will be viable by then.
sgb
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Admiral Pieg
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.03.09 13:24:00 -
[62]
I wish ccp would have done large medium and small rigs that require different ammounts of materials to craft. I mean who in their right mind puts a righ on their enyo when you can buy 2 enyos + fitting for the same price?
______________
Pod from above. |
Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
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Posted - 2007.03.09 20:07:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Akita T
REALLY ?
When was the last time you triple-rigged your Rifter, Kestrel, Incursus or Punisher ?
I have a triple rigged Merlin. And if I lose it, I'll go right out and build another one. I use it daily. For what I use it for, it's highly-cost effective.
------------------
Ironfleet.com
Proposal: Automated Ore Return Vehicles |
Akira2501
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Posted - 2007.03.10 04:07:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Akira2501 on 10/03/2007 04:05:19
RIG BPOs are cheap, and components are abundant on missions. The problem is that so many players simply ôcanÆt be botheredö to salvage. I hear it all the time.
If your too lazy to salvage, and too cheap to pay, I donÆt know what to tell you.
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Kellaen
Gallente
Teeth Of The Hydra
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Posted - 2007.03.10 04:47:00 -
[65]
If rigs drop to 5 mil they won't be worth the time to salvage for a producer. So either you can salvage your own or pay the prices on the market.
****ty profit = less people salvage = one of two things happen at this point in the game:
People come to the forums en-mass and whine rigs are too expensive, CCP massively increases drop rates.
People come to the forums en-mass and whine rigs are too expensive, because supply <<<< demand from such low margins that industrial players don't waste their time salvaging. |
Vincent Almasy
Gallente
The Underground
|
Posted - 2007.03.10 05:00:00 -
[66]
I have a question, with all this should of, would of, and what CCP ment to happen means nothing once it's in players hands. Look at T2, did CCP mean to have people charching sometimes 5000% production cost, or that people would pay this much for 2% better item?
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Templer Relleg
x13
Privateer Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.03.10 07:52:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Vincent Almasy
I have a question, with all this should of, would of, and what CCP ment to happen means nothing once it's in players hands. Look at T2, did CCP mean to have people charching sometimes 5000% production cost, or that people would pay this much for 2% better item?
Its not like theres a 2% gain from T1 to t2. I believe we are talking over 20% gain.
Also 1 t2 module will rather turn the tide into your favor in a fight, and cost less then 10mill in most cases.
This is not the case for rigs. Rigs is between 2 and 20% gain, for 10mill+. And its a 1-time use. Any mistake, and you lost your money.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2007.03.10 09:32:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Kellaen
If rigs drop to 5 mil they won't be worth the time to salvage for a producer. So either you can salvage your own or pay the prices on the market.
****ty profit = less people salvage = one of two things happen at this point in the game:
People come to the forums en-mass and whine rigs are too expensive, CCP massively increases drop rates.
People come to the forums en-mass and whine rigs are too expensive, because supply <<<< demand from such low margins that industrial players don't waste their time salvaging.
You're either stupid or have no clue about the EVE economy, do you know that ?
No, you wouldn't know, that was a rethorical question anyway.
But here's a NON-rethorical "problem" for you...
If the rate of COMPONENTS dropped from salvage is INCREASED by a factor of say 50... does that make SALVAGING any more or less profitable ?
No, really, I mean it, what if even a frigate wreck you salvage will ALWAYS give you at least 10 circuits and 5 other assorted parts, and what if you could get as many as 800 circuits from a lucky BS wreck salvage ?
Here's a hint: the prices for salvaged material will drop AROUND 50-fold too (a bit less to be honest), but will become a bit more omogenized (no more "wow must have melted capacitor console screw the rest").
Next problem for you... after that huge increase in salvage material drops, and subsequent decrease in salvage component prices... how much will a rig cost, and will it be more or less profitable to salvage ?
Hint 1 : how about an almost 50-fold decrease in rig price components coupled with a 50-fold increase in the amounts supplied making them cost almost 50 times less ?
Hint 2 : with people being more reckless and regarding them as throwaways, demand side will spike hugely, so the price will not be THAT much lower
Bottom line, if you heavily INCREASE the salvage drop rates, there is NO CHANGE to the profitability of salvaging at all... there is only an increase in rig turnover rate and a decrease in price.
But MANUFACTURING rigs or salvaging wrecks is as profitable as it ever was, it can only INCREASE profitability to be honest.
_
MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Templer Relleg
x13
Privateer Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.03.10 09:52:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Kellaen
If rigs drop to 5 mil they won't be worth the time to salvage for a producer. So either you can salvage your own or pay the prices on the market.
****ty profit = less people salvage = one of two things happen at this point in the game:
People come to the forums en-mass and whine rigs are too expensive, CCP massively increases drop rates.
People come to the forums en-mass and whine rigs are too expensive, because supply <<<< demand from such low margins that industrial players don't waste their time salvaging.
You're either stupid or have no clue about the EVE economy, do you know that ?
No, you wouldn't know, that was a rethorical question anyway.
But here's a NON-rethorical "problem" for you...
If the rate of COMPONENTS dropped from salvage is INCREASED by a factor of say 50... does that make SALVAGING any more or less profitable ?
No, really, I mean it, what if even a frigate wreck you salvage will ALWAYS give you at least 10 circuits and 5 other assorted parts, and what if you could get as many as 800 circuits from a lucky BS wreck salvage ?
Here's a hint: the prices for salvaged material will drop AROUND 50-fold too (a bit less to be honest), but will become a bit more omogenized (no more "wow must have melted capacitor console screw the rest").
Next problem for you... after that huge increase in salvage material drops, and subsequent decrease in salvage component prices... how much will a rig cost, and will it be more or less profitable to salvage ?
Hint 1 : how about an almost 50-fold decrease in rig price components coupled with a 50-fold increase in the amounts supplied making them cost almost 50 times less ?
Hint 2 : with people being more reckless and regarding them as throwaways, demand side will spike hugely, so the price will not be THAT much lower
Bottom line, if you heavily INCREASE the salvage drop rates, there is NO CHANGE to the profitability of salvaging at all... there is only an increase in rig turnover rate and a decrease in price.
But MANUFACTURING rigs or salvaging wrecks is as profitable as it ever was, it can only INCREASE profitability to be honest.
So true. If theres a 50-80% decrease in prices of the rigs, i believe we will see that 100% more will buy them, thats double demand!
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Zernmorx
Dark Reality
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Posted - 2007.03.10 11:40:00 -
[70]
Empire mission runners can always contact "Scrapper Corps" and set up deals to have thier loot repro'd and wrecks salvaged. If you don't want to waste the time training, looting, or salvaging; you can always make a little extra isk by having someone who will, do it for you.
Many of the people who would like to salvage usually have to kill thier own rats. Most people willing to salvage can barely run lvl 2 missions because they are either new characters or industialists. If the people actually blowing stuff in lvl 4's would give the people who would do it more wrecks at a faster pace, over time the components would drop in value thus making rigs cheaper.
Empire Salvaging Service available, contact ingame. |
Chewan Mesa
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.03.10 13:57:00 -
[71]
Hhmm, a general problem seems to be that most people can deal with paying 10-20mil for a rig to fit on their BS, sine the ship itself costs 100mil+ (tier2), add to that a full rack of 1400mm IIs and 10mil for a rig are peanuts.
Now, I can understand people who think 10mil/rig for a kestrel is a bit much, you wouldnt fit 5 heavy launcher IIs on one even if it was possible either.
This then either means that CCP missed out making different rig-sizes or messed the drop-rate up, so its not cost-effective to fit a frigate or cruiser (tech I) with a rack of rigs.
On the other hand, maybe CCP did intend these prices, and wants to leave it up to the eve economy to have more people gather resources and manufacture them if there's a demand for cheap rigs for frigs.
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Jack Icegaard
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Posted - 2007.03.10 15:34:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Kellaen
If rigs drop to 5 mil they won't be worth the time to salvage for a producer. So either you can salvage your own or pay the prices on the market.
****ty profit = less people salvage = one of two things happen at this point in the game:
People come to the forums en-mass and whine rigs are too expensive, CCP massively increases drop rates.
People come to the forums en-mass and whine rigs are too expensive, because supply <<<< demand from such low margins that industrial players don't waste their time salvaging.
You're either stupid or have no clue about the EVE economy, do you know that ?
No, you wouldn't know, that was a rethorical question anyway.
But here's a NON-rethorical "problem" for you...
If the rate of COMPONENTS dropped from salvage is INCREASED by a factor of say 50... does that make SALVAGING any more or less profitable ?
No, really, I mean it, what if even a frigate wreck you salvage will ALWAYS give you at least 10 circuits and 5 other assorted parts, and what if you could get as many as 800 circuits from a lucky BS wreck salvage ?
Here's a hint: the prices for salvaged material will drop AROUND 50-fold too (a bit less to be honest), but will become a bit more omogenized (no more "wow must have melted capacitor console screw the rest").
Next problem for you... after that huge increase in salvage material drops, and subsequent decrease in salvage component prices... how much will a rig cost, and will it be more or less profitable to salvage ?
Hint 1 : how about an almost 50-fold decrease in rig price components coupled with a 50-fold increase in the amounts supplied making them cost almost 50 times less ?
Hint 2 : with people being more reckless and regarding them as throwaways, demand side will spike hugely, so the price will not be THAT much lower
Bottom line, if you heavily INCREASE the salvage drop rates, there is NO CHANGE to the profitability of salvaging at all... there is only an increase in rig turnover rate and a decrease in price.
But MANUFACTURING rigs or salvaging wrecks is as profitable as it ever was, it can only INCREASE profitability to be honest.
You can probably increase the drop rate without decreasing the profit for those that salvage and produce rigs to a certain degree. But there is an optimum and beyond that point, an increased drop rate will decrease the profit of salvaging and building rigs.
In the long run, the demand for rigs follows the demand for new ships. If the supply of rig materials goes beyond what is needed to replace ship losses there will be very little profit involved with rig building. A increase of a factor 50 will most likely mean less profit for rig builders.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.03.10 17:01:00 -
[73]
Ships are lost constantly, and it's the smaller classes of ships like T1 frigates that are lost more often than, say, battleships.
Also, rigs can't be unplugged, you can only repackage ship, losing all rigs in the process.
You're now extremely careful not to repackage a ship due to insurance voiding and existing pricey rigs destruction... but there are enough people that DON'T insure their ships and would like to swap around rigs for various occasions.
Depending on ship (hey, even most battleships costs less as 3 CCC rigs right now), you would have probably bought a fresh ship before, and kept two separate styles of rigging, one on each ship... with very cheap rigs, you'll probably just repackage and fit the other rig set instead.
The demand for rigs is not constant, it is heavily dependant on price.
And the cheaper they are, the more they get used, and the faster they end up either discarded or destroyed, increasing demand heavily.
_
MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Jack Icegaard
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Posted - 2007.03.10 18:42:00 -
[74]
I think we all can agree that the Dev's have a very effective tool to manipulate rig prices. By increasing salvage drop-rate, prices will go down. Hence, its reasonable to assume that the price level on rigs that the Dev's intend us to have, is easily gouged by the drop-rate they set.
Personally, i don't want rigs to be so cheap that it is economically feasible to change rigs on a ship that cost less than 50 million. That is my personal preference. Some here argue that its not cost effective to fit rigs on a T1 cruiser (not to mention a frigate), with the current prices. The fact that you can by 5 cruisers for the price of a rig, does not necessarily mean, that its not cost effective to fit rigs to the ship. Its all depends what the alternative is.
Sure, if i have the alternative to buy a t2 cruiser that without rigs will better do the job of the t1, 3*rig-fitted cruiser for the same price, then its not cost effective.
But there are other aspects. Example:
A t2 cruiser signals high SP char and a kick ass ship. Many gangs will put a lot of effort into hunting an expensive ship as they provide kill mails of high status. A t1 cruiser is more likely to be engaged with more favorable odds where the rigs may be the edge that hands us you the victory.
Look at high end named modules. The best one often cost 4 times the price of the next best one. Why pay 8 million for a module that only is a little better than one you can buy for 2 million? Its the same with training time. Getting the last 20% out of a skill takes 5 times as long as the first 80%. The reason why players are willing to pay these prices or take all that time to train to level 5 ,is linked to the fact that a very small margin may be the difference between losing a fight and winning one.
Lets say you are marathon runner and regularly compete against someone who is 5% faster than you. Will he win 5% more than you. No, he will likely beat you 90% of all times. So, by just training to be being a little bit faster may increase your results dramatically.
Yes, i know, fighting in eve is not this simplistic. What i tried to do with this rant is to explain why rigs are cost effective even at relatively high prices.
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Clavius XIV
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.10 19:18:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Clavius XIV on 10/03/2007 19:16:00
Current rig prices are fine for fitting out a BS. Not so much for fitting out a frig.
CCP could introduce new BPOs, or add an additional optional build component (similar to how invention decryptors work)... which introduce sized rigs. You get 4 cruiser rigs for the components of one BS rig, and 4 frigate rigs for the material of one Crusier rig.
To make things backwards compatable with current rigs, you can fit BS rigs on anything, cruiser rigs on BC or smaller and frig rigs on destroyer or smaller, so current rigs on frigs continue to work.
This means your average BS rig will run 25 mil, crusier rig 8 mil and frig rig 2 mil.
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