And it will produce a hilarious killmail for somebody's cane.

Yes, canes and drakes are the lucky recipient of the role "pwnage on the cheap," to the detriment of tier 1s, might I add.

And it's not all tier 2s, btw. Harby is fine as is. And Myrm needs a drone buff.

Diversity. When they got introduced they completely messed up the balance between cruisers/HACS and BCs, Then the Myrm got nerfed (too harshly imo, should have kept 100m3 bandwidth) but most are out of whack. I'm sure I don't have to explain that if a certain ship type is the go-to answer for just about any question it needs adjustment.

Drakes and Canes are too good, Harb is only good because Scorch is OP and the Myrm is actually a tad weak. Dropping a mid slot from the Drake and removing the damage bonus from the Cane while allowing for a 7th turret slot would make them less OP and still more than good enough.

The Cane fitting a couple of Nano's can pretty much out run any non Minmatar Cruisers and Armor Cruisers. It has 1.5-2x the DPS 1.5-3x the tank and better range them most cruisers. The Drake hangs around lobbing incredible accurate Missiles to ridiculous ranges that match or out dmg most Cruisers with a massive battleship tank and it is not exactly slow.

The only cruisers that get serious use are EWAR, Logi, Kiters and Sig Tankers. Leaves a lot of Slow Armor Cruisers sitting around wondering why Capsuleers just don't touch them like they used too.

The Tier System and bad roles have kept a lot of Cruisers out of the fight. Now Battlecruisers... 2 Battlecruisers to be accurate have become what is akin to the Standard of EVE while what should be the standard (Cruisers) are left to rot.

I hope they rebalance Cruiser roles so the Nanocane can not "Do it all but better" for every non Cynabal out there.

Comments:
- T1 cruisers whether armor or shield fit would remain useless if we deleted every Hurricane and Drake from the game. This is not a compelling argument.

- Discussing damage and damage projection is interesting, but you seem to be making an argument that the Drake has a role that would otherwise be useful for T1 cruisers. This would continue to be true even if the most dire of "Nerf Drake" threads were to take place. This is also not a compelling argument.

- Discussing slow armor cruisers isn't terribly interesting either. Pretty much nothing sub-battleship is armor tanked anymore and that has nothing to do with Tier 2 Battlecruisers... deleting all battlecruisers from the game would not change this.

- Talking about how the tier system obsoletes ships is kind of like talking about how the sun shines or how the earth spins. Its a simple fact and not terribly interesting to the discussion. This exact same argument is frequently used to argue that Tier 1 BCs should be boosted to Tier 2 levels.

-teir 2 and teir 3 Destroyers!!! (I want my destroyer with 6-8 bonused medium gunz!!!!)

-T2 Destroyers that do some thing besides decloak, activate MWD&ISL ,4,3,2,1,cloak

-T2 Destroyers that do some thing besides decloak, activate MWD&ISL ,4,3,2,1,upgrade clone

Comments:
- T1 cruisers are useless. Even if we deleted all tier 2 BCs from the game, they would remain useless. I do not see this as a compelling argument.
- HACs still have many roles that cannot be filled by BCs of any tier.
- The Myrm nerf has literally nothing to do with anything. Furthermore, it didn't need nerfed. It was then and still is outclassed by the Drake.
- You claim that Drakes and Canes are too good, but you don't say why. You are attempting to prove this by assertion.

Again, you failed to answer my question: What roles to Tier 2 BCs take from other ships that they would ever have legitimately filled?

-Liang

Comments:
- T1 cruisers are useless. Even if we deleted all tier 2 BCs from the game, they would remain useless. I do not see this as a compelling argument.
- HACs still have many roles that cannot be filled by BCs of any tier.
- The Myrm nerf has literally nothing to do with anything. Furthermore, it didn't need nerfed. It was then and still is outclassed by the Drake.
- You claim that Drakes and Canes are too good, but you don't say why. You are attempting to prove this by assertion.

Again, you failed to answer my question: What roles to Tier 2 BCs take from other ships that they would ever have legitimately filled?

-Liang

Well their IS one thing that needs a tech one/cheep verson of that works...............



Logi ships, skill intensive/skill dead-end, hi cost/low inshure ability. honestly its a roll that to meany pilots wait to long to get in to (me inculded). If the made navy BC and gave them rep-bonuses and tank bonuses ( but not a role bonuse letting you use large reps/rep insane distances/transfure cap at a bonus) I would be ok with it. Other wise I would RAGE at navy/faction BC's!!

Why not navy versions of the tier 1 BCs?
Navy Ferox, Brutix, Cyclone and Prophecy wouldn't be as overpowered as a navy drake or cane.

A compelling Arguement to what?

I don't want Battlecruisers deleted. Sure some balance in nerfing some aspects and buffing others would help.

The problem in my mind is not the just the Drake but Heavy Missiles. They do what Guns can not without the range bonus. Missile Ships that have the velocity bonus should be more viable then they are since the Drake has all but proven it is not a very important bonus when it comes to Heavy Missiles.

I <3 my Drake very much. I want to love the ships that are not flown.

No but that should not be the case. Armor Cruisers are fitting for Shield and the ones that don't Kite melt.

Something CCP wants to look into and I agree fully.

It may not be interesting but it is a part of what has helped to kill off non kiting Cruisers.

It can be used to buff Battlecruisers but have you seen the HP, Capacitor, Fitting and DPS the Tier 2's Sport. All Cruisers for having about or less then half of everything they have is a little speed, sig and scan res. Made less important by Nano's and Sebo's that fit in there extra slots.

I am not going to pretend I have the answers I will say that Cruisers getting love so they become a viable small gang boat / fleet choice along side Battlecruisers would be a big plus and provide much more tactics in EVE Warfare. Something I hope CCP looks into.

- The T1 cruisers are mostly useless because of the tier 2 BCs. Vexor, Rupture, Thorax (small gang of Ion thoraxes with ECM drones is fun), Moa to an extend in a "please shoot me, I must be an idiot and I probably even fit rails, honestly" role can still do fine. They are cheap fun and I'm sure they will lose out against superior "stats" in most cases but that doesn't dismiss them just because of that.

- The only HACs still having a role are the ones with some weirdo gimmick like massive range or speed, the others are mostly pushed into oblivion by the BC's effectiveness and affordability. Just because there's some left that work doesn't mean the BC didn't fck them over, going "HACS are fine, look at the Vaga and Zealot" doesn't say much other than "the rest is mostly forgotten".

- Myrm nerf was mentioned in a "the new BCs were too good and they managed to nerf the most ****** one" so I mostly agree with you there. I do think that with 100m3 bandwidth and 200m3 bay it would be fine. Also, Myrm not being up to par with the Drake isn't a Myrm issue, it's a Drake issue.

- Drake has too much tank going, possibly combined with tackle. I'm sure we won't have to explain this revelation to you. Removing a midslot doesn't make it useless at all but it does force the pilot to make choices making it more on par with the rest. The Cane has too much dps/volley (combi of raw dps, damage selection and effective range) combined with too much versatility due to those 2 highs. Removing the Damage bonus (not rof) and allowing for a 7th turret lowers both dps as volley a bit while making it not so ridiculously versatile.

The "role" they removed is more than just that; they essentially removed the ships from the game, so it's even worse. They're too good, too powerful and too affordable. Rather than a "BUFF EVERYTHING ELSE" I'd opt for a "nerf the offenders", in this case Drake and Cane (and in a broader sense Scorch and ACs but that's probably beyond the scope of this thread). Diversity is good, fun and interesting. "everybody" flying Drakes&Canes isn't.

Again, totally deleting Tier 2 BCs from the game wouldn't save T1 cruisers... so please don't use T1 cruisers as an example for why we should nerf only tier 2 BCs.

People continue to fly gun ships, and will continue to do it. Missiles and guns are different, and to me thats totally ok.

Here's my prediction of a Tier 2 BC nerf:
- Overall accomplishes nothing on its own. T1 cruisers and HACs are buffed to be viable for the roles people are demanding for them. Battlcruisers still out tank and DPS them but do not match there new roles.
- Encourages PVP because effective and cheap hulls are available at every price range.
- Encourages many of the more risky types of PVE because of new effective and cheap hulls. Many types of PvE are Balanced to meet this
- Enrages some invigorates others a huge portion of the player base changes there tactics

T1 cruisers would still be totally obsolete if we deleted all Tier 2 BCs from the game. Both sets of faction cruisers, pirate cruisers, T2 cruisers, Tier 1 BCs, and Command Ships totally obsolete them all on their own. Hell, a well flown AF has a pretty good chance of taking down even the "Best" T1 cruiser.

-Liang

I have *A LOT* of ships. My current hangar in Amamake:
...
- Thorax
- Celestis
- 60 Ruptures
...
I'd say that bringing in a few dozen Harpies, Celestis, Moas, and Thoraxes is high on my list of things to do.

-Liang

My god your like a don't get it machine today.

Talking about deleting Battlecruisers all the time. The only one who is mentioning deleting them is you as you think anyone suggested it for a second.

You keep talking about the uselessness of T1 Cruisers as an example in your argument. I said I am gonna bold and capitalize this for you (THEY NEED A BUFF).

Buffing 6 of the Battlecruisers to the OPness of the Drake and Cane will not help Balance them with Cruisers which you admit is an issue. Proper Cruiser roles that are effective and manageable Battlecruisers for there cost will

/Whoosh

I am not talking about what you fly at all. I am talking range in specific what range is effective. Heavies hit to Fleet Ranges and bonused Heavies go past fleet ranges. If they put a Range Bonus on a Drake you would consider that a nerf and that is the problem.

Range Bonuses do not help Heavy Missiles in a realistic way.

Another take.

Wat?

But it has nothing at all to do with a battlecruiser thread.

Do we even need Navy BC's?

So... what? I pay a little more for a Navy Drake that is a little better than a normal Drake although serves the same role. But... it wont be as good as a Tengu but it will be a little cheaper.

BIG WOOP.

How about: Fix Black ops and keep looking at Gallente hulls instead. Gees.

I'd expect a navy BC to run somewhere in the neighborhood of 250-300M ISK if it was priced similarly to other ships with navy versions.

-Liang