I love to see a fleet issue hurricane or navy issue drake

Lets take the two ships that are ruining the game and make better versions.

That way no one will have to fly anything else ever.

Lets take the two ships that are ruining the game and make better versions.

That way no one will have to fly anything else ever.

I'd like a navy myrm. Maybe it could be un-drone-bw-nerfed as a navy hull.

Why not navy versions of the tier 1 BCs?
Navy Ferox, Brutix, Cyclone and Prophecy wouldn't be as overpowered as a navy drake or cane.

Navy versions of Tier 1 BCs would be nice - although I'll admit I'd prefer they buffed the originals rather than introduce more.

Yep, it was too quiet. Surprised another of these **** "I wanna wanna tech II, tech III, faction, pirate Draek" threads took so long to hit S&M again. But here it is.

No, no you can't have a better draek with which to load more LSE and SPR and tank more pve content with. Get lost.

I want a Brutix with an 8th high (incl turret) and 6th (or even 7th!) low.

I can haz?

-Liang

And it will produce a hilarious killmail for somebody's cane.

So it ******* begins.

See you two on page ten... =/

The fact that I don't have to go "are you ********? Tier 2s are already so imbalanced it's sick, they should actually be nerfed. And you want BETTER ones?" because others already did so restored some of my faith in humanity. If only a little bit.

What roles to Tier 2 BCs take from other ships that they would ever have legitimately filled?

-Liang

What roles to Tier 2 BCs take from other ships that they would ever have legitimately filled?

-Liang

What roles to Tier 2 BCs take from other ships that they would ever have legitimately filled?

-Liang

And it will produce a hilarious killmail for somebody's cane.

Yes, canes and drakes are the lucky recipient of the role "pwnage on the cheap," to the detriment of tier 1s, might I add.

And it's not all tier 2s, btw. Harby is fine as is. And Myrm needs a drone buff.

Diversity. When they got introduced they completely messed up the balance between cruisers/HACS and BCs, Then the Myrm got nerfed (too harshly imo, should have kept 100m3 bandwidth) but most are out of whack. I'm sure I don't have to explain that if a certain ship type is the go-to answer for just about any question it needs adjustment.

Drakes and Canes are too good, Harb is only good because Scorch is OP and the Myrm is actually a tad weak. Dropping a mid slot from the Drake and removing the damage bonus from the Cane while allowing for a 7th turret slot would make them less OP and still more than good enough.

The Cane fitting a couple of Nano's can pretty much out run any non Minmatar Cruisers and Armor Cruisers. It has 1.5-2x the DPS 1.5-3x the tank and better range them most cruisers. The Drake hangs around lobbing incredible accurate Missiles to ridiculous ranges that match or out dmg most Cruisers with a massive battleship tank and it is not exactly slow.

The only cruisers that get serious use are EWAR, Logi, Kiters and Sig Tankers. Leaves a lot of Slow Armor Cruisers sitting around wondering why Capsuleers just don't touch them like they used too.

The Tier System and bad roles have kept a lot of Cruisers out of the fight. Now Battlecruisers... 2 Battlecruisers to be accurate have become what is akin to the Standard of EVE while what should be the standard (Cruisers) are left to rot.

I hope they rebalance Cruiser roles so the Nanocane can not "Do it all but better" for every non Cynabal out there.

Comments:
- T1 cruisers whether armor or shield fit would remain useless if we deleted every Hurricane and Drake from the game. This is not a compelling argument.

- Discussing damage and damage projection is interesting, but you seem to be making an argument that the Drake has a role that would otherwise be useful for T1 cruisers. This would continue to be true even if the most dire of "Nerf Drake" threads were to take place. This is also not a compelling argument.

- Discussing slow armor cruisers isn't terribly interesting either. Pretty much nothing sub-battleship is armor tanked anymore and that has nothing to do with Tier 2 Battlecruisers... deleting all battlecruisers from the game would not change this.

- Talking about how the tier system obsoletes ships is kind of like talking about how the sun shines or how the earth spins. Its a simple fact and not terribly interesting to the discussion. This exact same argument is frequently used to argue that Tier 1 BCs should be boosted to Tier 2 levels.

-teir 2 and teir 3 Destroyers!!! (I want my destroyer with 6-8 bonused medium gunz!!!!)

-T2 Destroyers that do some thing besides decloak, activate MWD&ISL ,4,3,2,1,cloak

-T2 Destroyers that do some thing besides decloak, activate MWD&ISL ,4,3,2,1,upgrade clone

Comments:
- T1 cruisers are useless. Even if we deleted all tier 2 BCs from the game, they would remain useless. I do not see this as a compelling argument.
- HACs still have many roles that cannot be filled by BCs of any tier.
- The Myrm nerf has literally nothing to do with anything. Furthermore, it didn't need nerfed. It was then and still is outclassed by the Drake.
- You claim that Drakes and Canes are too good, but you don't say why. You are attempting to prove this by assertion.

Again, you failed to answer my question: What roles to Tier 2 BCs take from other ships that they would ever have legitimately filled?

-Liang

Comments:
- T1 cruisers are useless. Even if we deleted all tier 2 BCs from the game, they would remain useless. I do not see this as a compelling argument.
- HACs still have many roles that cannot be filled by BCs of any tier.
- The Myrm nerf has literally nothing to do with anything. Furthermore, it didn't need nerfed. It was then and still is outclassed by the Drake.
- You claim that Drakes and Canes are too good, but you don't say why. You are attempting to prove this by assertion.

Again, you failed to answer my question: What roles to Tier 2 BCs take from other ships that they would ever have legitimately filled?

-Liang

Well their IS one thing that needs a tech one/cheep verson of that works...............



Logi ships, skill intensive/skill dead-end, hi cost/low inshure ability. honestly its a roll that to meany pilots wait to long to get in to (me inculded). If the made navy BC and gave them rep-bonuses and tank bonuses ( but not a role bonuse letting you use large reps/rep insane distances/transfure cap at a bonus) I would be ok with it. Other wise I would RAGE at navy/faction BC's!!

Why not navy versions of the tier 1 BCs?
Navy Ferox, Brutix, Cyclone and Prophecy wouldn't be as overpowered as a navy drake or cane.

A compelling Arguement to what?

I don't want Battlecruisers deleted. Sure some balance in nerfing some aspects and buffing others would help.

The problem in my mind is not the just the Drake but Heavy Missiles. They do what Guns can not without the range bonus. Missile Ships that have the velocity bonus should be more viable then they are since the Drake has all but proven it is not a very important bonus when it comes to Heavy Missiles.

I <3 my Drake very much. I want to love the ships that are not flown.

No but that should not be the case. Armor Cruisers are fitting for Shield and the ones that don't Kite melt.

Something CCP wants to look into and I agree fully.

It may not be interesting but it is a part of what has helped to kill off non kiting Cruisers.

It can be used to buff Battlecruisers but have you seen the HP, Capacitor, Fitting and DPS the Tier 2's Sport. All Cruisers for having about or less then half of everything they have is a little speed, sig and scan res. Made less important by Nano's and Sebo's that fit in there extra slots.

I am not going to pretend I have the answers I will say that Cruisers getting love so they become a viable small gang boat / fleet choice along side Battlecruisers would be a big plus and provide much more tactics in EVE Warfare. Something I hope CCP looks into.

- The T1 cruisers are mostly useless because of the tier 2 BCs. Vexor, Rupture, Thorax (small gang of Ion thoraxes with ECM drones is fun), Moa to an extend in a "please shoot me, I must be an idiot and I probably even fit rails, honestly" role can still do fine. They are cheap fun and I'm sure they will lose out against superior "stats" in most cases but that doesn't dismiss them just because of that.

- The only HACs still having a role are the ones with some weirdo gimmick like massive range or speed, the others are mostly pushed into oblivion by the BC's effectiveness and affordability. Just because there's some left that work doesn't mean the BC didn't fck them over, going "HACS are fine, look at the Vaga and Zealot" doesn't say much other than "the rest is mostly forgotten".

- Myrm nerf was mentioned in a "the new BCs were too good and they managed to nerf the most ****** one" so I mostly agree with you there. I do think that with 100m3 bandwidth and 200m3 bay it would be fine. Also, Myrm not being up to par with the Drake isn't a Myrm issue, it's a Drake issue.

- Drake has too much tank going, possibly combined with tackle. I'm sure we won't have to explain this revelation to you. Removing a midslot doesn't make it useless at all but it does force the pilot to make choices making it more on par with the rest. The Cane has too much dps/volley (combi of raw dps, damage selection and effective range) combined with too much versatility due to those 2 highs. Removing the Damage bonus (not rof) and allowing for a 7th turret lowers both dps as volley a bit while making it not so ridiculously versatile.

The "role" they removed is more than just that; they essentially removed the ships from the game, so it's even worse. They're too good, too powerful and too affordable. Rather than a "BUFF EVERYTHING ELSE" I'd opt for a "nerf the offenders", in this case Drake and Cane (and in a broader sense Scorch and ACs but that's probably beyond the scope of this thread). Diversity is good, fun and interesting. "everybody" flying Drakes&Canes isn't.

Again, totally deleting Tier 2 BCs from the game wouldn't save T1 cruisers... so please don't use T1 cruisers as an example for why we should nerf only tier 2 BCs.

People continue to fly gun ships, and will continue to do it. Missiles and guns are different, and to me thats totally ok.

Here's my prediction of a Tier 2 BC nerf:
- Overall accomplishes nothing on its own. T1 cruisers and HACs are buffed to be viable for the roles people are demanding for them. Battlcruisers still out tank and DPS them but do not match there new roles.
- Encourages PVP because effective and cheap hulls are available at every price range.
- Encourages many of the more risky types of PVE because of new effective and cheap hulls. Many types of PvE are Balanced to meet this
- Enrages some invigorates others a huge portion of the player base changes there tactics

T1 cruisers would still be totally obsolete if we deleted all Tier 2 BCs from the game. Both sets of faction cruisers, pirate cruisers, T2 cruisers, Tier 1 BCs, and Command Ships totally obsolete them all on their own. Hell, a well flown AF has a pretty good chance of taking down even the "Best" T1 cruiser.

-Liang

I have *A LOT* of ships. My current hangar in Amamake:
...
- Thorax
- Celestis
- 60 Ruptures
...
I'd say that bringing in a few dozen Harpies, Celestis, Moas, and Thoraxes is high on my list of things to do.

-Liang

My god your like a don't get it machine today.

Talking about deleting Battlecruisers all the time. The only one who is mentioning deleting them is you as you think anyone suggested it for a second.

You keep talking about the uselessness of T1 Cruisers as an example in your argument. I said I am gonna bold and capitalize this for you (THEY NEED A BUFF).

Buffing 6 of the Battlecruisers to the OPness of the Drake and Cane will not help Balance them with Cruisers which you admit is an issue. Proper Cruiser roles that are effective and manageable Battlecruisers for there cost will

/Whoosh

I am not talking about what you fly at all. I am talking range in specific what range is effective. Heavies hit to Fleet Ranges and bonused Heavies go past fleet ranges. If they put a Range Bonus on a Drake you would consider that a nerf and that is the problem.

Range Bonuses do not help Heavy Missiles in a realistic way.

Another take.

Wat?

But it has nothing at all to do with a battlecruiser thread.

Do we even need Navy BC's?

So... what? I pay a little more for a Navy Drake that is a little better than a normal Drake although serves the same role. But... it wont be as good as a Tengu but it will be a little cheaper.

BIG WOOP.

How about: Fix Black ops and keep looking at Gallente hulls instead. Gees.

I'd expect a navy BC to run somewhere in the neighborhood of 250-300M ISK if it was priced similarly to other ships with navy versions.

-Liang

Sounds about right. Point I was making; do we really need Navy BC's, especially in the face of other changes that would be more welcome?

Yes, it would probably be nice but I could pimp a drake to about 300 mil and it'd probably fill the role.

Who else thinks this would be a good add on to the game faction battlecruiser.

I love to see a fleet issue hurricane or navy issue drake

Fleet issue cyclone and fleet issue ferox and brutix and prophecy maybe.

Drake and cane are already too good to need a navy version.

IMO, there already exists an enhanced version of the Cyclone, Ferox, Prophecy and Brutix.... The command ships.

A navy issue cane, drake, myrm, and harbinger would be more logical imo. Maybe the command ships need a boost... lol

Navy Battlecruisers concerns me in that it would be equal or superior to field command ships. Command ships need buffing for the costs and the skill prerequisite needed to fly them.

Either Navy Battlecruisers have to be gimped, or Tech 2 Field Command Ships need to be buffed.

Navy Battlecruisers concerns me in that it would be equal or superior to field command ships. Command ships need buffing for the costs and the skill prerequisite needed to fly them.

Either Navy Battlecruisers have to be gimped, or Tech 2 Field Command Ships need to be buffed.

[Brutix Navy Issue, Active T2]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Nanobot Accelerator I


Hammerhead II x5
Hammerhead II x5

Yes, I need this. I needs my fix, baby

-Liang

Nerfing them could make it easier to balance Cruisers. [...]

I am not of course saying nerf everyone the same but bonus adjustments to make some more useful and others more in line with a Battlecruiser baseline if you would. You don't have to bring them all in line with the best but you don't need to bring them in line with the worst ether.

Decide exactly how useful you want them to be then buff Cruisers accordingly.

No, it wouldn't, and why should it? They are two. Distinct.Classes. Of ships.

Yes, you are. Your picking of BCs as some kind of baseline--for a chassis that costs 1/4 as much and takes little time to train into, vs. a chassis that costs 4x more and needs high skills to get the most out of is proof of this. Your "baseline" is completely arbitrary. Why nerf-bat BCs to cruiser levels when,

A) That many cruisers are useless pieces of shite isn't any of the BCs' fault--nerfing BCs will not change or improve this, only improving the cruisers will.
B) The--arguably only--Tech I cruiser that really works is the one that is most focussed around an explicit role, and that's the Caldari Blackbird, with its' Tech II variants expanding on this, at much greater cost. Why can't this be done for all cruisers?

Yes, indeed: But deciding how cruisers should be buffed, and then doing it has nothing to do with BCs.

I would rather see the tier 1 BCs as faction issues. It would be fun to have a Fleet Cyclone. Maybe make them a little more viable since the tier 2 BCs usually make the tier 1 BCs obsolete.

Clearly sir, you've never fought a properly fitted Cyclone. Or fought against one for that matter.

+1 for Tier 1's, maybe a Myrm, maybe a Harby.
No navy issue drakes or canes please.

Command ships use Command links.

navy ships would not step on the toes of their role.

Who else thinks this would be a good add on to the game faction battlecruiser.

I love to see a fleet issue hurricane or navy issue drake

Command ships use Command links.

navy ships would not step on the toes of their role. Tech 3 cruisers already did that.

making navy BCs would be no different then what we have now in terms of Navy cruisers vs HACs etc.

If anything the Harbinger, Drake and Hurricane should be nerfed (loosing a slot at least). They are way too popular atm and obsolete too many other ships. If these three were brought inline, there would be more diversity in space than can be achieved by adding better hulls of these ships.

any one more thing.... "The existence of Tier 2 Battlecruisers is totally immaterial to whether or not T1 cruisers are useful." just stop Liang...

The absolution should be given another gun since the sleipnir has one more turret and bigger drone bay than the hurricane, while the absolution has one less turret and smaller drone bay. The absolution should be given more grid and cpu to accomodate the 7th turret.

The nighthawk deserves another missile, I don't see a reason why it has less missiles than the drake. 7 heavy missiles will make the nighthawk worth using, it also needs a bit more grid and cpu.

[

Sigh. Another one. What ships do you feel that they obsolete for the role they are supposed to fill?



Its true and you know it. We could delete all tier 2 BCs from the game tomorrow - or nerf them to have 1 high/mid/low each - and T1 cruisers would STILL be a bad choice 100% of the time.

-Liang

Would game mechanics allow something like a 'deep space battlecruiser'?

You could make something that operated akin to a capital ship in that it couldn't travel into high-sec, maybe had some scanning bonuses, +1 default warp core stabilizer, was a little nerfed for a BC, but had like an outrageously low mass so that you could take them in and out of WH's without worrying about collapsing them...

Just trying to get creative, don't know if it is necessary...

Sigh. Another one. What ships do you feel that they obsolete for the role they are supposed to fill?

-Liang

Any smaller hull that doesn't do the nano-kiting-sniping thing or doesn't do a support role is outclassed by a harby, drake or cane. This ranges from T1 frigs to T2 hac's to tech1 BC's. The smaller snipers are outclassed at sniping by the tech3 BC's and the drake-harby-cane nano-kite themselves very well.

It would be really nice if CCP showed any love for missile pilots.. so I am all for anything that will make an affordable missile boat with good damage. Nerfing the naga before it launched was really mean, I trained for t2 torps in anticipation even tested it on sisi. So a faction/navy drake will make me happy...

So basically what you're telling me is that T1 frigates are useless as DPS ships because tier 2 battlecruisers make them so.

Ok.

-Liang

No, I'm saying outside of a few specific roles and/or BS-hulls, the cane, drake and harby are your goto hulls for all situations.

No, I'm saying outside of a few specific roles and/or BS-hulls, the cane, drake and harby are your goto hulls for all situations.

So basically what you're telling me is that T1 frigates are useless as DPS ships because tier 2 battlecruisers make them so.

Ok.

-Liang

Does a "properly fitted Cyclone" include a faction fit, blue pill, crystal set, and tengu+loki booster?

-Liang

Really don't get the "nerf drake/cane/harb because XXX sucks" crowd. The tier 2 BC's are very well-balanced IMO, Myrm might be slightly underwhelming, but that's not due to the other 3 ships, more to do with the current state of the game.

Also, fail logic is fail. IMO, most BS can do the tank and spank role better than tier 2 BC (more EHP more DPS) therefore BS should be nerfed too amirite? And let's not forget about capitals, those have even bigger EHP and more DPS than tier 2 BC's. In fact, let's make ALL ships have the same EHP and DPS, regardless of ship size, that would be 'balanced' amirite?

Let me tell you a little story:

Long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away, CCP introduced a whole new class of battlecruisers. Back then, everyone thought, "WOW hurricane, WOW myrmidon, WOW harbinger, meh PVE drake poo poo"... Since that mythical time when tier 2 battlecruisers were introduced, we've seen myrm drone bandwidth nerf, nano-balancing, scorch OP buff, AC OP buff... Those were the days when flying a drake meant you were a PVE noob. Since then, we have had no changes to the drake, while the mindset of people playing have changed according to buffs/nerfs to the other races.

So all of a sudden, people start realizing the drake is actually a pretty damn good ship, and therefore must be nerfed? Give me a break. Maybe the other ships should be looked at again, seeing as how the drake has not been as greatly affected by all the changes in the past.

Also, my heart says YES to navy/faction/t2 drake, but my head says NO. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Really don't get the "nerf drake/cane/harb because XXX sucks" crowd. The tier 2 BC's are very well-balanced IMO, Myrm might be slightly underwhelming, but that's not due to the other 3 ships, more to do with the current state of the game.

Also, fail logic is fail. IMO, most BS can do the tank and spank role better than tier 2 BC (more EHP more DPS) therefore BS should be nerfed too amirite?