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Is CCP a slave to Vista and microsoft?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.03.15 19:58:00 - [151] Originally by: Qolde Originally by: DirtyHarry You are all talking as if you are actually gonna be forced to buy vista lol I don't even want to have to consider it as requirement for a game. It's simply retarded that the only way to legally get DirectX is to buy a crap OS. The technology can be separated as Wine/Cedega proves, but why are MS being asshats about it and not just making it cross platform? Ah, oh yes. Because they know their product is inferior, so they wave money at the devs and all is well... except that my computer has a cough. Some weird virus going around. My one biggest beef about Vista is the whole issue with DirectX 10. Microsoft has long said it would be too much of a technical hurdle to get it into XP, and that might be true, but it seems like it's motivated more to get people to upgrade. Meaning dollar signs is the primary motivator. Truly, what reason does a gamer need to upgrade their XP system (which is probably running relatively stable at the moment) to Vista? None. Developers will move to DX10 when Microsoft starts to whittle away support for older APIs and operating systems, and suddenly the only place to put a game no a PC will be Vista. Forced upgrades for the lose. Now all that being said, I'm pretty sure CCP will do some amazing things with DX10 in their Vista client. I'd upgrade for that alone. Well, that and my current PC is starting to slowly die from old age. But you sure won't see me running out to drop a few grand on a Vista-capable gaming machine so I can play Crysis. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Reuv Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.03.15 20:36:00 - [152] Originally by: Impericus Because i dont use MS OS anymore.... and I dont intend to support them. Aww all the MS haters are coming out of the woodwork, isn't that cute. Y'all can always pick up a PS3 since windows is the debil. Anyone will complain about anything, given the chance.
ceaon Gallente Porandor	Posted - 2007.03.15 20:43:00 - [153] i will run eve on vista if vista become open source http://bob.justgotowned.com/
Bish Ounen Gallente Omni-Core Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2007.03.15 20:50:00 - [154] What kills me about it is that CCP is spending the time and money to make 2 brand new clients with brand new graphics. One in DX9, and one in DX10. The ONLY DIFFERENCE is that the DX9 one won't be able to use the "walk around in stations" feature, and the DX10 one will. The updates are otherwise functionally identical. Why choose DX10 over OpenGL? As another poster has already stated, OpenGL is already well ahead of DX10 in 3D prowess. CCP could have done much more with an OpenGL setup than they will ever be able to do with a DX10 setup, so there is no technical reason why they should pick DX10 over OpenGL. OpenGL is available on more than one platform, so this opens up their marketing potential. More available machines to play EVE on means more potential clients for EVE. From a marketing perspective choosing DX10 makes no sense either. If it makes less sense technically, and less sense for Marketing, why in the world would they choose the inferior DX10 over OpenGL? Well, several possibilities come to mind: - Training: It's possible that most of their staff is trained on Direct X development tools, and the costs of training up staff for new development software are too high. This kind of internal pressure would explain the move to DX10, but does not explain the reasoning behind leaving off content for DX9 users. I think we can list this as a side factor, and not the primary factor in the decision. - Familiarity / Laziness: Again, this is another internal pressure that was probably part of the decision. But like the "Training" section above, does not explain the DX10/DX9 content disparity, and so cannot be properly listed as a primary portion of the decision. - Money/Pressure from Microsoft: Microsoft is well known for it's willingness to use it's market dominance in less than scrupulous ways. Right now Microsoft is under tremendous pressure from Mac and Linux for the Desktop marketplace. They are already getting trounced in the browser wars by Firefox, and some of their long-standing partners in the PC and Server world are now also selling Linux. They need to do everything they can to maintain their position as market leader. With the Delays in Vista they needed something beyond the function of the Operating system itself to convince people to move to Vista. Games and DX10 are their hook. But if no one uses DX10, they are sunk. I think we have a situation here where CCP was either granted some favors, or flat-out bribed to make the new EVE feature-set a DX10-only thing. Money from Microsoft is the only proper explanation for this type of behavior. It explains the choice of less-featured DX10 over OpenGL, and it absolutely explains the content disparity between DX10 and DX9 clients. Have no doubts about it. CCP was bought off by MS to make the new content DX10 only. There simply isn't any other explanation that fits. Now. HAVING SAID ALL THAT: This is CCP's game. They have a right to develop it in any way that they want. It is simply frustrating for us that want to move AWAY from DRM encumbered and crappy operating systems towards something with more liberty. We would also like to be able to play EVE with all the features available. It just seems a shame to us that our money isn't as good as Microsoft's.
Impericus	Posted - 2007.03.15 22:05:00 - [155] Originally by: Bish Ounen What kills me about it is that CCP is spending the time and money to make 2 brand new clients with brand new graphics. One in DX9, and one in DX10. The ONLY DIFFERENCE is that the DX9 one won't be able to use the "walk around in stations" feature, and the DX10 one will. The updates are otherwise functionally identical. Why choose DX10 over OpenGL? As another poster has already stated, OpenGL is already well ahead of DX10 in 3D prowess. CCP could have done much more with an OpenGL setup than they will ever be able to do with a DX10 setup, so there is no technical reason why they should pick DX10 over OpenGL. OpenGL is available on more than one platform, so this opens up their marketing potential. More available machines to play EVE on means more potential clients for EVE. From a marketing perspective choosing DX10 makes no sense either. If it makes less sense technically, and less sense for Marketing, why in the world would they choose the inferior DX10 over OpenGL? Well, several possibilities come to mind: - Training: It's possible that most of their staff is trained on Direct X development tools, and the costs of training up staff for new development software are too high. This kind of internal pressure would explain the move to DX10, but does not explain the reasoning behind leaving off content for DX9 users. I think we can list this as a side factor, and not the primary factor in the decision. - Familiarity / Laziness: Again, this is another internal pressure that was probably part of the decision. But like the "Training" section above, does not explain the DX10/DX9 content disparity, and so cannot be properly listed as a primary portion of the decision. - Money/Pressure from Microsoft: Microsoft is well known for it's willingness to use it's market dominance in less than scrupulous ways. Right now Microsoft is under tremendous pressure from Mac and Linux for the Desktop marketplace. They are already getting trounced in the browser wars by Firefox, and some of their long-standing partners in the PC and Server world are now also selling Linux. They need to do everything they can to maintain their position as market leader. With the Delays in Vista they needed something beyond the function of the Operating system itself to convince people to move to Vista. Games and DX10 are their hook. But if no one uses DX10, they are sunk. I think we have a situation here where CCP was either granted some favors, or flat-out bribed to make the new EVE feature-set a DX10-only thing. Money from Microsoft is the only proper explanation for this type of behavior. It explains the choice of less-featured DX10 over OpenGL, and it absolutely explains the content disparity between DX10 and DX9 clients. Have no doubts about it. CCP was bought off by MS to make the new content DX10 only. There simply isn't any other explanation that fits. Now. HAVING SAID ALL THAT: This is CCP's game. They have a right to develop it in any way that they want. It is simply frustrating for us that want to move AWAY from DRM encumbered and crappy operating systems towards something with more liberty. We would also like to be able to play EVE with all the features available. It just seems a shame to us that our money isn't as good as Microsoft's. wouldnt surprise me if this was the case...
Taedrin Gallente Mercatoris Technologies	Posted - 2007.03.15 22:07:00 - [156] Wait a second guys, I'm no fan of Vista (mostly because it's supposedly a memory/CPU hog), but I SERIOUSLY doubt that Microsoft "bought out" CCP. How much money would Microsoft have to shell out to do that? If Vista is such a horrible operating system, switching to Vista will cause customers to leave. And if customers leave, then CCP loses money. Therefore, in order for Microsoft to "buy out" CCP, they must give CCP more money than CCP would lose by switching to Vista. Unless CCP is too stupid to realise that they would lose money by forcing users to switch to an bad operating system. But I trust CCP's shareholders to be greedy enough to know otherwise. Furthermore, why would Microsoft "buy out" CCP? CCP has less than 200,000 active accounts, a considerable amount of which are (BoB) alts. That means that "buying out" CCP would net them 100,000 more customers - most of which would probably eventually switch over to Vista anyways (it's the same thing that happened with 95, 98 and XP). And if Microsoft were "buying out" CCP, who else are they buying out? Electronic Arts? Sierra? Vivendi? To put it bluntly, it's not in CCP's best interest to make a client for Vista, just because Microsoft offered them a bit of money. It would have to be enough money to make even Linus Torvald sweat a little. Most likely, CCP is making a Vista client because they predict that Vista is going to become the new dominant home operating system, or because DirectX 10 offers something that DirectX 9 doesn't. Whether we M$ haters like it or not. And as for OpenGL, that would probably require CCP to scrap their entire engine. "Upgrading" to DirectX 10 is a lot easier than having to rewrite the entire engine from scratch using an entirely different API. By sticking with DirectX, they can keep the basic design of the engine the same. Now, all this being said, I'm all for CCP switching over to OpenGL and avoiding Vista like the plague. But let's face it - they are their own masters, they can do what they want to. I know that DRM thing about Vista is a pain, but as has been said before, nobody is forcing you to buy Vista. There are thousands of Linux distros out there, and you can make a lot of stuff happen with WINE these days.
Trinity Faetal Gallente 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.03.15 22:12:00 - [157] don't anger the Dark Shikari, you won't like him when he's angry. stupid unix boy -- Enjoy The Silence
Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2007.03.15 22:25:00 - [158] Originally by: Trinity Faetal don't anger the Dark Shikari, you won't like him when he's angry. stupid unix boy What will he do? Intimidate me with commands that have two dozen options? Originally by: Diana Marc Notice that BoB is agreeing with RA's concern. That's like Elrond and Sauron agreeing to reduce carbon emissions.
Sable Lowell Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.15 22:35:00 - [159] Originally by: Laboratus Are there any plans of developing a linux client? Are you polish, or just that dumb?
Masheine	Posted - 2007.03.15 22:58:00 - [160] This thread is proof that using Linux causes brain damage.

Xander XacXorien	Posted - 2007.03.15 22:58:00 - [161] What was the difference between Windows 98 and Windows XP ? Your PC had to have more memory and a bigger CPU for functionally little difference. What will the difference between Windows XP and Vista be ? More of the same ? I guess so. On top of this you'll move from a stable environment to an unstable one AND have to upgrade all your other software. New hardware and new software just to be able to launch the same programs,,, hmmmm. I'm not an advocate of Microsoft "Progress", seems as though all this involves is perminantly running tasks hogging memory and cpu doing dubiously suspect stuff - looks at the 10+ services I end almost every time I start my PC. All of which you don't need to run Eve, all using memory and doing sweet FA. The point some people seem to be missing is you buy Vista in the name of "Progress" and find you've gone to an operating system that takes more resources simply to run. I will probably go Vista sometime within the next 2 years. However I just resent the fact the operating never gets slimmer or optimised, it always gets bigger and slower. Why can't we have a games version of windows with all the junk chucked out ?
Sable Lowell Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.15 23:16:00 - [162] Edited by: Sable Lowell on 15/03/2007 23:14:56 With correct hardware and software that utilizes Vista correctly, it is actually faster. It is very different than current versions of windows. for one thing, it is way more stable. one example is that drivers are no longer kernel based, so if you graphics card messes up, you computer doesn't go boom, it just restarts the graphics and you're good to go. It is more secure (a lot of the security can be disabled). One reason why things run much slower is because software and hardware is not compatible, there's a lot of small things that are different, such as the fact that programs are not allowed to write to the registry or the program files directory (which Microsoft has been warning software developers to not do for years, it is the developers fault, not MS) A majority of the bad rep Vista is getting is because of the DRM issue. yes, it is very restrictive, but it's also not all Microsoft's fault. And as for MS forcing media manufacturer's into using their DRM, that is false. They can still use the current DRM or not use one at all. Vista makes it available, media companies utilize it. As for the argument of DX10 vs. OpenGL, i do not know enough about the two to say much, but there are 2 things that I have found. The first was I have never seen an MMO look so good as the WIC does using DX10. If OpenGL is far superior, why does it not look better? And from what I've found on Google, OpenGL takes a lot more resources and higher requirements to provide the same graphics that DX10 does, so you can make better graphics in DX, making it available to a wider player base that do not have brand new computers. I could keep going on and on about why the features Vista implemented are good, and I can also go on and on why they are bad. As for me, I won't be upgrading to Vista anytime soon, I have no need to. I will when the majority of new games require it though. And also, CCP cannot support Linux or Mac with WIC since DX10 is owned by MS. I think Vista is really cool, and really ****ty at the same time. There are reasons why they did everything, some good, some bad, some greedy. For 90% of you posting on here, do your own damn research, you have no idea what you are talking about, you just read a paragraph from something and then jump on the "OMG I hate M$" bandwagon, when if you were smart, you would do your own research, and realize the truth. Edit: And no, I am not pro-MS or pro-Vista. I am, however, anti-idiocy that comes from most people who post about how they hate Microsoft, when they don't have a clue what they are trolling about.
Qolde Minmatar Rising Knights SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.15 23:17:00 - [163] How much is 1 million us dollars in eve subs? How much is 1 mil to MS? Anyway, it's not upgrading to DX10 that's so bothersome as using DX over OpenGL in the FIRST Place. Back before OpenGL 2.0, yet after DX6 I think it was(really not sure), DirectX was actually slightly better for like a year or so. MS used this to fill developers heads with the crap that made them switch to it over OpenGL. So now you have this sad generation of games that only work on windows, and will be relegated to the realms of emulators like every other piece of software built on proprietary junk before them. Switching to OpenGL is said to not be so hard, because once you understand one, the other isn't too different. Fix Inertia Stabs!!!
Qolde Minmatar Rising Knights SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.15 23:20:00 - [164] Oh, and every single good "new" feature that Vista has, has been on either Mac or Linux for a while now. Every bad feature is MS' own abominations that nobody wants anyway.
Sable Lowell Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.15 23:24:00 - [165] Originally by: Qolde Oh, and every single good "new" feature that Vista has, has been on either Mac or Linux for a while now. Every bad feature is MS' own abominations that nobody wants anyway. Any specific examples that are not part of natural progression?
Anatolius Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.15 23:26:00 - [166] Originally by: Qolde Switching to OpenGL is said to not be so hard, because once you understand one, the other isn't too different. Switching now would be an ungodly time-consuming project. Not that I wouldn't mind seeing it done... DirectX.. Well, I can't say authoritatively whether it's Microsoft (DX), nVidia (drivers) or retarded engineers (actual hardware), but I've had plenty of problems with DirectX over the years. Never had any problems running anything that uses OpenGL. Unfortunately, years after a game is released is a really poor time to be switching between DX/OpenGL. Hideous amounts of code would have to be modified. Modified code means testing. Both mean stupid amounts of time consumed. Stupid amounts of time consumed means less fun happy forward progress with the rest of EVE. "If God be for us, whom can be against us?"
Mintaric	Posted - 2007.03.16 00:02:00 - [167] I am running Vista Ultimate 64 now. It is a rock solid OS. Never crashes, never locks up. Haven't encountered any bugs with it. However, drivers are buggy and I blame hardware vendors for not getting their act together. In my case I have drivers for all of my hardware and it's running great. This is not the case for everyone but drivers are maturing. For me gaming in Vista as at the same speed as gaming in XP. No difference at all. There is alot to like about Vista and there are some irritating things but mostly I think it's a positive.
Mintaric	Posted - 2007.03.16 00:04:00 - [168] Originally by: Qolde Oh, and every single good "new" feature that Vista has, has been on either Mac or Linux for a while now. Every bad feature is MS' own abominations that nobody wants anyway. Not true at all. Several featurs in Windows are lacking in Linux and OSX, several more have been copied. Of course Windows has copied from others as well. It's the way things go. Linux is just a pain in the ass and not worth my time and until I can run OSX on a PC of my choice i'm not going to use it.
annab Amarr FireStar Inc	Posted - 2007.03.16 00:28:00 - [169] Edited by: annab on 16/03/2007 00:30:42 Edited by: annab on 16/03/2007 00:26:38 I have vista ultimate on a laptop for work. Its ok. 1. DMC I can understand why they added it as a independent games developer who make his own games. It is a bit of a **** take when someone buys the game and starts selling copies on his/her site. Although taking the fecker to court was worth it. Go my money back. I could have put the time and money in to something else. We are talking ú300 not much to most people but to an independent developer you may as well have given him my budget for my next game. However going as far as to stop/degrade content is a step too far. I would have gone for a bit of code that sends the users location and name to company and let them decide what to do. Saves so much time. 2. DX10 well having looked at the idea behind it you has more power and easier programming. Sounds good from where I'm standing. ItÆs until you get to the documentation. Around 90% of my old code will need to be reworked including my games. Well fun just waiting for the DX10 version update for my tools. DX9 emulator on DX10 works ok but I'm not happy with it due to the lower speed. This is more due to drivers being crap. DX10 vs DX9 See the difference just put your mouse on pics. Just two reasons I'll be upgrading in a years time. 1. Drives. 2. Bugs in its program. I remember when XP was new and had all the bad drivers and bugs. Lets wait two or three months then see where everything is at.
ghosttr Amarr The Silent Rage FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.16 00:29:00 - [170] I think a better graphical version should be available but I dont think we should have to install such garbage as windows visa on our machines. I had it installed for about a week then i reverted back to xp. It was about the slowest os i had ever experienced, took more resources, and gave nothing but nag screens, it also didnt seem to like overclocking. Its a bigger slower os with nothing to offer but more hassle and slower loadtimes. I dont want to miss the walking in stations, but i refuse to install that garbage on my pc. I think ccp should seriously reconsider using something more flexible such as opengl. That way eve can be easily ported to other operating systems. CCP has always been great at supporting a wide variety of sytems, and i think that they should continue to support a wide variety of systems instead of limiting eve to a small amount of people on a small amount of systems. HELP FIX THE DRONE REGIONS!!!

Billl Gates	Posted - 2007.03.16 00:32:00 - [171] Bow down to me, mortals.
4rc4ng3L Gallente Eternal Rising EternalRising	Posted - 2007.03.16 00:44:00 - [172] Originally by: Billl Gates Bow down to me, mortals. bows Death is the only true freedom, brought on by our own ignorance.... Welcome to the "free" world in which we live...*
Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2007.03.16 06:55:00 - [173] Originally by: Mintaric Not true at all. Several featurs in Windows are lacking in Linux and OSX, several more have been copied. Lets see if I got this part right: you are saying that either or both, Linux and OS X, copied features available in Windows Vista? Is that the correct interpretation of what you said? Originally by: Diana Marc Notice that BoB is agreeing with RA's concern. That's like Elrond and Sauron agreeing to reduce carbon emissions.
Vladimir Ilych Gradient	Posted - 2007.03.16 08:27:00 - [174] Originally by: Nicocat Originally by: Xtro 2 Try being cursed like me, i have XP and Vista 64bit editions, in this scenario, Vista is a complete nightmare to maintain. As I understand it, 64 bit drivers (especially graphics ones) are broken more than interdictors in Vista. Might explain that. eh? I run XP x86 and Vista x64 on the same box. It works perfectly. No problem with graphics drivers at all. Indeed Vista now downloads the latest 3rd party drivers for all your hardware from the windows update site (as they now HAVE to be signed off by MS. A good thing IMHO) What make of gfx card are you using?
Pepe Prawn	Posted - 2007.03.16 08:44:00 - [175] Quote: They will not, however, have access to the station-based gameplay Good. If i wanted "station-based gameplay" i will go play sims. I am not a shrimp! I am a king prawn, okay?
Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2007.03.16 08:45:00 - [176] Originally by: Vladimir Ilych [...]as they now HAVE to be signed off by MS. A good thing IMHO[...] On the flip side - not a good thing. It virtually allows MS to control who enters the video card market and who doesn't. Heh. Would you look at that? I've added something tin-foil hat worthy to this thread. Originally by: Diana Marc Notice that BoB is agreeing with RA's concern. That's like Elrond and Sauron agreeing to reduce carbon emissions.
Laboratus Gallente BGG Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.03.16 08:50:00 - [177] Edited by: Laboratus on 16/03/2007 08:46:32 I'm not really into windows, but his hot sister DirectX... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats

Redundancy	Posted - 2007.03.16 09:55:00 - [178] Someone got their wires crossed... There are currently no plans to require DX10 for any gameplay feature.

Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2007.03.16 10:00:00 - [179] Originally by: Redundancy Someone got their wires crossed... There are currently no plans to require DX10 for any gameplay feature. Thanks! Only took us 7 pages to get that. Originally by: Diana Marc Notice that BoB is agreeing with RA's concern. That's like Elrond and Sauron agreeing to reduce carbon emissions.

Redundancy	Posted - 2007.03.16 10:04:00 - [180] Originally by: Victor Valka Only took us 7 pages to get that. Was ill yesterday, so no forum whoring for me.




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I am not a shrimp! I am a king prawn, okay?