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Taking away T2 BPO's

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Hilabana Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.03.15 14:10:00 - [1] I was shock to read the end of T2 BPO's is at hand .. removing the blueprint original lottery was put in the DEV Blog ! So i have work 4 years in a game to have some other person in the game mess up the 2 Bil ISK of work i have put into working for the R&D's and the 3 T2 BPO's that i now have will be taken away from me ? and every other long time player ? it is far to late for me and many other player to take all them points we have with our R&D and use them some other way! There comes a point in a game when new players can not have and do what the older long time players can do that is a fact of life in any thing you see. So it this now a way to mute all the older players skill and all the time and ISK they spent to cut us all out ? Just so the new players can do what a old player thats been playing for years can do ? Thanks a lot for the time Thief!
Nero Scuro Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.15 14:15:00 - [2] So you want messed up, retarded gameplay mechanics to remain in place just so you can keep all your imaginary play money? It's a game. Stop being so selfish. ___ Nice one CCP
Captin Lawdogg Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.15 14:17:00 - [3] Edited by: Captin Lawdogg on 15/03/2007 14:14:49 Its called a monopoly, its not allowed in RL and should not be allowed in a game either imo, all it does is make prices skyrocket, which is great for the seller but very bad for everyone else. T2 BPO holders currently have a monoply on the market, its is very difficult if not impossible for anyone else to get a T2 Bpo unless they have billions of isk to purchase it.
Hilabana Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.03.15 14:19:00 - [4] Originally by: Captin Lawdogg Its called a monopoly, its not allowed in RL and should not be allowed in a game either imo, all it does is make prices skyrocket, which is great for the seller but very bad for everyone else. It is called long term Investment ! its only a Monopoly when one person has them All !!
Hilabana Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.03.15 14:20:00 - [5] And i have been Giving away FREE BPC's for over 3 years now ! So i was never getting rich from it ..
Captin Lawdogg Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.15 14:21:00 - [6] Originally by: Hilabana Originally by: Captin Lawdogg Its called a monopoly, its not allowed in RL and should not be allowed in a game either imo, all it does is make prices skyrocket, which is great for the seller but very bad for everyone else. It is called long term Investment ! its only a Monopoly when one person has them All !! You sound very bitter, have some tea and relax, its just a game...

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2007.03.15 14:21:00 - [7] Excuse a noob... but where did it say that the current BPO's was going to be removed or even converted into BPCs? I scanned through the devblogs again and saw no such word, but maybe I'm too wasted to read right? Help me help you .

Hilabana Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.03.15 14:26:00 - [8] Originally by: Chribba Excuse a noob... but where did it say that the current BPO's was going to be removed or even converted into BPCs? I scanned through the devblogs again and saw no such word, but maybe I'm too wasted to read right? Hi Boss It says removing the blueprint original lottery ! So what every T2 BPO you have in the Que then will no longer be there at all ! When a T2 BPO is in Que with a R&D agent you have to built up the points to get the agent to turn over that T2 BPO. The problem is not every one knows how to build up the points to get the Turn Over when there in Que !
Serapis Aote Minmatar TBC Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.15 14:26:00 - [9] Edited by: Serapis Aote on 15/03/2007 14:23:42 Originally by: Hilabana I was shock to read the end of T2 BPO's is at hand .. removing the blueprint original lottery was put in the DEV Blog ! So i have work 4 years in a game to have some other person in the game mess up the 2 Bil ISK of work i have put into working for the R&D's and the 3 T2 BPO's that i now have will be taken away from me ? and every other long time player ? it is far to late for me and many other player to take all them points we have with our R&D and use them some other way! There comes a point in a game when new players can not have and do what the older long time players can do that is a fact of life in any thing you see. So it this now a way to mute all the older players skill and all the time and ISK they spent to cut us all out ? Just so the new players can do what a old player thats been playing for years can do ? Thanks a lot for the time Thief! The system is messed up...they are trying to fix it. Deal with it. Stop being a selfish tool, and realize some things have to be done to make the overall game better. And by the way. Locking new players out content forever = eventual dead MMORPG Give me 5 good reasons why the current T2 lottery system is better than then a properly exectued invention system (without the t2 bpo holders), and I will shut up. The 5 points should adress the overall game mechanics of each system and which is better, not who will or will not be screwed over by it, just tell me why lottery and t2 BPO's is such a brilliant way to do it.
Trilliam Blackthorn	Posted - 2007.03.15 14:26:00 - [10] Quote: There comes a point in a game when new players can not have and do what the older long time players can do Actually....it's called BALANCING THE GAME. For eve to be balanced, anything one player has achieved MUST be able to be achievable by any other player, either through time or effort (or both). Anything less is simply hard-coding an insurmountable advantage directly into the game. With that in mind, do honestly think "older" players should be granted advantages that new players cannot have simply because you "got here first"? If so, do you think that will be a strong selling point to grow the user base?

Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.03.15 14:26:00 - [11] Originally by: Hilabana I was shock to read the end of T2 BPO's is at hand .. removing the blueprint original lottery was put in the DEV Blog ! So i have work 4 years in a game to have some other person in the game mess up the 2 Bil ISK of work i have put into working for the R&D's and the 3 T2 BPO's that i now have will be taken away from me ? and every other long time player ? it is far to late for me and many other player to take all them points we have with our R&D and use them some other way! There comes a point in a game when new players can not have and do what the older long time players can do that is a fact of life in any thing you see. So it this now a way to mute all the older players skill and all the time and ISK they spent to cut us all out ? Just so the new players can do what a old player thats been playing for years can do ? Thanks a lot for the time Thief! Afaik, the current T2 BPOs won't be removed. It would be utter crap for those that will win BPos in the coming months. The only thing that will change is that there will be no more BPO to win with the lottery. And the masses that whine about how CCP should remove the current blueprints are: a/ Jealous b/ Ignorants about the fact that only a small number of T2 blueprint really are money-makers c/ Ignorants about that fact that inventions will kill the huge profits those BPOs owners can make currently. ------------------------------------------ A big nuke may be nice in a strategy game, but something like this in a game where every unit is a player, and each death costly, is insane.
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.03.15 14:29:00 - [12] Edited by: DarkMatter on 15/03/2007 14:27:16 Originally by: Chribba Excuse a noob... but where did it say that the current BPO's was going to be removed or even converted into BPCs? I scanned through the devblogs again and saw no such word, but maybe I'm too wasted to read right? I don't believe CCP has answered what exactly will happen to the existing BPO's... I'd imagine they would have to dissolve them into BPC's at some point in time... or make invention more profitable than BPO's, as Invention requires much more work and investment capital... No more free ISK printing machines... They simply can't leave them in, would not be fair at all... As it stands now, some T2 BPO holders have made a profit on their BPO's that would take someone using Invention 10 years to make... So they need to go IMO... Building the homestead
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.03.15 14:30:00 - [13] I've read al the forums on this and I don't see that the T2 BPO's will be eliminated. Just the lottery. But I Pray that the T2 BPO's will be destroyed! Eliminating any new T2 BPO's means the existing ones become priceless. Invention can NEVER compete with a T2 BPO holder. The farthest I'm willing to go in showing mercy to T2 BPO holders is to have the BPO's take damage similar to how Crystals do. That way, you might get lucky and produce off of them for a long time - but they might blow up tommorrow too.
meowmixmeow Gun Metal Priests The Makhai	Posted - 2007.03.15 14:30:00 - [14] Some examples of useless t2 bpo's Gatling Pulse Laser II Micro Graviton Smartbomb II Micro Proton Smartbomb II Quad Beam Laser II .. --- ___ Your signature here... Click here for details 75mil ISK offered ___
meowmixmeow Gun Metal Priests The Makhai	Posted - 2007.03.15 14:31:00 - [15] Originally by: Princess Jodi I've read al the forums on this and I don't see that the T2 BPO's will be eliminated. Just the lottery. But I Pray that the T2 BPO's will be destroyed! Eliminating any new T2 BPO's means the existing ones become priceless. Invention can NEVER compete with a T2 BPO holder. The farthest I'm willing to go in showing mercy to T2 BPO holders is to have the BPO's take damage similar to how Crystals do. That way, you might get lucky and produce off of them for a long time - but they might blow up tommorrow too. If you had them you wouldn't say that.. it all comes down to jealously. --- ___ Your signature here... Click here for details 75mil ISK offered ___
Ifni Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.03.15 14:36:00 - [16] Originally by: Hilabana I was shock to read the end of T2 BPO's is at hand .. removing the blueprint original lottery was put in the DEV Blog ! So i have work 4 years in a game to have some other person in the game mess up the 2 Bil ISK of work i have put into working for the R&D's and the 3 T2 BPO's that i now have will be taken away from me ? and every other long time player ? it is far to late for me and many other player to take all them points we have with our R&D and use them some other way! There comes a point in a game when new players can not have and do what the older long time players can do that is a fact of life in any thing you see. So it this now a way to mute all the older players skill and all the time and ISK they spent to cut us all out ? Just so the new players can do what a old player thats been playing for years can do ? Thanks a lot for the time Thief! 1.) EVE hasn't even been live for 4 years. 2.) The devs haven't said what is going to happen to existing t2 bpo's. 3.) 2 billion isn't really much these days. You take what is offered. And that must sometimes be enough.

CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2007.03.15 14:40:00 - [17] Originally by: Hilabana Originally by: Captin Lawdogg Its called a monopoly, its not allowed in RL and should not be allowed in a game either imo, all it does is make prices skyrocket, which is great for the seller but very bad for everyone else. It is called long term Investment ! its only a Monopoly when one person has them All !! It's pretty much a oligopoly currently, which is pretty much as bad as a monopoly. Wrangler Assistant Community Manager EVE Online Contact Support - Contact Moderators - Report Bug - Submit News Leads - Knowledge Base Player Guide - Policies - Join ISD - Fan Submissions - DevFinder LiteÖ

Captin Lawdogg Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.15 14:59:00 - [18] Edited by: Captin Lawdogg on 15/03/2007 14:55:29 Originally by: CCP Wrangler Originally by: Hilabana Originally by: Captin Lawdogg Its called a monopoly, its not allowed in RL and should not be allowed in a game either imo, all it does is make prices skyrocket, which is great for the seller but very bad for everyone else. It is called long term Investment ! its only a Monopoly when one person has them All !! It's pretty much a oligopoly currently, which is pretty much as bad as a monopoly. Wow, I learned a new word today, I knew I should have payed more attention in economics "oligopoly" is the perfect word to describe the current state of the T2 BPO market.
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.03.15 15:13:00 - [19] Originally by: CCP Wrangler It's pretty much a oligopoly currently, which is pretty much as bad as a monopoly. If it is so bad, why don't you release the BPOs to the NPC market at appropriate prices? Just removing the BPO lottery won't really cheer up those people who are now thinking that the whole thing was rigged.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.03.15 15:14:00 - [20] Originally by: CCP Wrangler It's pretty much a oligopoly currently, which is pretty much as bad as a monopoly. A don't agree with that term. In a true oligopoly, the poor/newest has absolutely no chances to take power away from the rich/old, short of taking up arms and do a revolution. In Eve, any corp determined to get some T2 Bpos could do isks-earning corp operations for a month, (or XX players running lv4 in high-sec for 3 weeks), to come up with enough money to get some interesting BPOs (like AF or interdictor blueprints). Sure, it require efforts and teamplay, but you have to do just that if you want to grab power in this game anyway. ------------------------------------------ A big nuke may be nice in a strategy game, but something like this in a game where every unit is a player, and each death costly, is insane.

Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.03.15 15:18:00 - [21] Originally by: Pan Crastus If it is so bad, why don't you release the BPOs to the NPC market at appropriate prices? Just removing the BPO lottery won't really cheer up those people who are now thinking that the whole thing was rigged. Oh really? What would, then? Nothing, that's what. This at least puts control of the T2 market more in the player's hands, for better or worse. I'm not saying the system would be perfect on day one, but you have to start somewhere. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Laboratus Gallente BGG Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.03.15 15:26:00 - [22] Originally by: Captin Lawdogg Edited by: Captin Lawdogg on 15/03/2007 14:14:49 Its called a monopoly, its not allowed in RL and should not be allowed in a game either imo, all it does is make prices skyrocket, which is great for the seller but very bad for everyone else. T2 BPO holders currently have a monoply on the market, its is very difficult if not impossible for anyone else to get a T2 Bpo unless they have billions of isk to purchase it. Not quite true. The exploitation of a monopoly causes inefficiences in the market. Some natural monopolies make prices go down. For example in national telephone, railroad, power networks, or municipal water, sewer etc... where there is no point in maintaining several overlapping systems. Wiki linkie ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.03.15 15:34:00 - [23] There is really no other option than to take them away at a certain point in time... The ones who really fear this are the alliances who don't agree with having a strong industrial base who bought up a lot of the ship BPO's, now they will actually have to work hard with invention to field all those T2 fleets... For alliances & corps who embrace industry, this will not be a problem... It will remove a lot of the pretenders from empire building IMO... The ones who farm complexes & buy T2 BPO's & such. Oh yeah, remove static complexes too... This will weed out the industrially weak corps and alliances, the ones who are PvP 100% of the time and hate having industry players in their alliance, etc... A system where hard work & dilligence is always the way to go over a crappy system like the T2 lottery that has plauged this game for so long... Building the homestead
Laboratus Gallente BGG Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.03.15 15:36:00 - [24] Edited by: Laboratus on 15/03/2007 15:34:03 Originally by: CCP Wrangler It's pretty much a oligopoly currently, which is pretty much as bad as a monopoly. Ogliopoly is not so bad. According to Kotler: "Pure ogliopoly consists of a few companie producing essentially the same commodity. Such companies would find it hard to charge anything more than the going price. The only way to gain a competitive advantage is through lower costs." The "problem" with the current market is demand >> supply. A single T2 BPO can only produce so many runs in any given amount of time and they are not in constant use... The amount of items produced is artificially limited by the BPOs more than by their holders... There is a maximum amount of how many can be manufactured, but the demand is growing all the time. After all, the use of T2 items is no longer an advantage on the field, it is a requirement to being succesful... Originally by: DarkMatter There is really no other option than to take them away at a certain point in time... The ones who really fear this are the alliances who don't agree with having a strong industrial base who bought up a lot of the ship BPO's, now they will actually have to work hard with invention to field all those T2 fleets... For alliances & corps who embrace industry, this will not be a problem... It will remove a lot of the pretenders from empire building IMO... The ones who farm complexes & buy T2 BPO's & such. Oh yeah, remove static complexes too... This will weed out the industrially weak corps and alliances, the ones who are PvP 100% of the time and hate having industry players in their alliance, etc... A system where hard work & dilligence is always the way to go over a crappy system like the T2 lottery that has plauged this game for so long... Again, taking the T2 BPOs away, would only rise T2 prices, not help the player base in any significant way... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
prathe Minmatar Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.03.15 15:38:00 - [25] Originally by: Chribba Excuse a noob... but where did it say that the current BPO's was going to be removed or even converted into BPCs? I scanned through the devblogs again and saw no such word, but maybe I'm too wasted to read right? hate to break it to all the kill the bpo'ers out there but bpo's arent going out of game bpo lotery is accelerated to deliver all the newly seeded ones to players b4 the LOTTERY is ended the bpo's will remain but the lottery is done after that the only way to get into t2 production is to get datacore and do invention all t2 bpo's will be remaining in game reading comprehension FTW
T2 BPO	Posted - 2007.03.15 15:44:00 - [26] I wonder what would be the alternative if T2 BPO's were removed from the game - replacement with max run BPC's for current T2 BPO holders? IF. I know they aren't being removed don't bother replying with such. ________ Save me!
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.15 15:45:00 - [27] Originally by: Princess Jodi I've read al the forums on this and I don't see that the T2 BPO's will be eliminated. Just the lottery. But I Pray that the T2 BPO's will be destroyed! Eliminating any new T2 BPO's means the existing ones become priceless. Invention can NEVER compete with a T2 BPO holder. The farthest I'm willing to go in showing mercy to T2 BPO holders is to have the BPO's take damage similar to how Crystals do. That way, you might get lucky and produce off of them for a long time - but they might blow up tommorrow too. Why almost all the "destroy T2 BPO" people sprout this idiocy? Becoming priceless? No one will pay a T2 BPO more than the possible return in 1 year (and that is the current price). But the return will decrease for the invention effect, so T2 BPO will decrease in value. Destroyng/removing the BPO will only make some item totally scarce. I have got a Quake L BPO some day ago. After looking the skill required and the isk return I have put that on a shelve, later I will start producion, but for now I will train other skill before that. Do you think that someone will invent a BPC for something with a return of 200% and very little market? (build price for unit 260 isk, sell at 500 isk, if it sell) CCP should put to 0 (and better that that if starting from well researched T1 BPC) the ME and PE of the T2 BPC produced from invention and give some clear idea on the chances of success/copyes produced, so that people following the invention path have a good base to make the cost/reward analysis. That will help a lot. And a steady influx of BPO to keep a decent base in game or a system to get BPO from invention will be good things too. BTW: I have started research with my first character in May 2006, got more than 1 agent in September, now I have 14, and I have got 2 BPO so far. So it is hardly inaccessible for a newcomers, it only require to dedicate time and effort to it. All this whining about "it is not possible to get BPO" is like people whining "but I can't pilot a capitol ship after 2 month of play, waah, I will never have access to high end content", "waah can't use a covetor with my 1 month old character". Train for it and you can do it.
Laboratus Gallente BGG Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.03.15 15:54:00 - [28] Originally by: Venkul Mul stuff I think that they should rather let the T2 BPCs gained from invention retain the runs, ME and PE from the T1 BPC it was made from... Would be better... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Val Oman Delta Desperados	Posted - 2007.03.15 15:55:00 - [29] One should have to do some work to get such a high value item in an MMO. Sorry, but getting standings up, training skills and putting some agents on autopilot is not the level of effort the T2 BPOs deserved. I have had 5 R&D agents running for over a year, it took me a weekend to set them up. The new system using invention is fun, fair and interdependent. The lottery system was single player game stuff, the new system is MMO. Sorry you are getting screwed now with this 'nurf'. But many more people have been screwed by the lottery system than what this 'nurf' will do to a few.
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.03.15 16:00:00 - [30] Edited by: DarkMatter on 15/03/2007 15:57:36 Originally by: prathe Originally by: Chribba Excuse a noob... but where did it say that the current BPO's was going to be removed or even converted into BPCs? I scanned through the devblogs again and saw no such word, but maybe I'm too wasted to read right? hate to break it to all the kill the bpo'ers out there but bpo's arent going out of game bpo lotery is accelerated to deliver all the newly seeded ones to players b4 the LOTTERY is ended the bpo's will remain but the lottery is done after that the only way to get into t2 production is to get datacore and do invention all t2 bpo's will be remaining in game reading comprehension FTW Please give us a link where they explicitly say the will NOT be removing them. Quote: Again, taking the T2 BPOs away, would only rise T2 prices, not help the player base in any significant way... Once they revamp the joke of an invention system and introduce reverse engineering, things will be fine. Building the homestead

Taipan Gedscho Perkone	Posted - 2007.03.15 16:13:00 - [31] when i entered eve, i knew there was research, and i saw that there a named t1 items. i cant tell you how surprised i was, when i found out, that researching BPs only affects mineral cost and production time. imho its really dumb that npcs drop better t1 stuff than one can produce. imho it should be the other way round. if youre into t1 production, the only thing thats worth building, is stuff that npcs dont drop. unless youre in a backwater system where you need to build everything you go through on your own. anyways: dont let us only research ME and PE but named stuff, and after you reached some certain level of "quality" finally and slowly let us research it into t2. of course there is a noticeable possibility im failing to see the big picture here. Only you can save mmorpgs - Stop crying for nerfs today!
Laboratus Gallente BGG Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.03.15 16:16:00 - [32] Originally by: DarkMatter Once they revamp the joke of an invention system and introduce reverse engineering, things will be fine. Reducing supply always makes the ask price go up. Not to mention that removing BPOs will remove excisting industry structures, as the ppl who produced the components can no longer sell them with previous certanty. And unless the BPCs have enough runs to be in the cooker for about a month or so contineusly, production will be limited pretty much to own use or friends. Too much hassle otherwise and there still are easier ways of making isk. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Seeker Kervos	Posted - 2007.03.15 16:20:00 - [33] Originally by: Hilabana I was shock to read the end of T2 BPO's is at hand .. removing the blueprint original lottery was put in the DEV Blog ! Yes, they are removing the lottery, but this is a good thing as it was not a fair system. Originally by: Hilabana So i have work 4 years in a game to have some other person in the game mess up the 2 Bil ISK of work i have put into working for the R&D's and the 3 T2 BPO's that i now have will be taken away from me ? and every other long time player ? The dev have not said anything about what they would do with the current bpo. My guess is that they are going to stay, the reason being that its better for the community as a hole. If you remove the T2 bpo, the price of t2 item will sky rocket. Modules like miner II that cost 90k isk would cost close to 1 mill. Item that are not popular would dissapear from market. That would not be good. The t2 bpo create a baseline for the market and invention will create competition on popular items to keep the price at an acceptible level. Originally by: Hilabana it is far to late for me and many other player to take all them points we have with our R&D and use them some other way! Why dont you use those point you have to get datacore. You can sell the datacore for isk, and im sure some folks have made a billion isk just by doing that. Or you could have used those datacore to do invention and made isk selling t2 items like I have. BTW I have no t2 bpo and I have faith in invention.
Rab	Posted - 2007.03.15 16:24:00 - [34] There are many ways to reduce the power and affectiveness of a T2 BPO over time and stitching up the hundreds of owners of ok but not insanely good bpos that they paid fair money for in isk or RPs, for example adding the T3 and rumoured T4 and T5, add more cosmos, complex and other rare items and of course improve invention so that it takes the insane profits off the worst offenders and allows people to attain any T2 item for under 5-10x its basic material cost, or whatever works in the end. Trying to spite the Hulk and Cap Recharger 2 bpo owners by stitching up the thousands that earn 7 mil a week on their purchased bpo would be a mistake IMO. Theres always haves in games, and have nots. Lucky drops, organised teams, elite 3+ year old groups controlling complexes in space, lucky ganking in high sec, conning some honest owner of an item with stupid contract loopholes, buying isk with GTCs, running multiple accounts with RL cash, these all result in haves and have nots, at least with BPOs you can earn your isk and buy in on some scale. disclaimer: no, I never won a bpo, yes, I have had 5 research agents and many RPs, yes, I own parts of a few BPOs that were bought with earned isk to use and invest in. - In an infinite universe, everything is definite. -
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.15 16:24:00 - [35] Originally by: Venkul Mul Why almost all the "destroy T2 BPO" people sprout this idiocy? Becoming priceless? No one will pay a T2 BPO more than the possible return in 1 year (and that is the current price). But the return will decrease for the invention effect, so T2 BPO will decrease in value. Destroyng/removing the BPO will only make some item totally scarce. As the current system stands and the lottery is ended and the existing T2 BPOs are left in game they will be near priceless (doubt anyone would ever buy a T2 Micro Smartbomb but still...). With a BPO I can research it for ME and PE to make it as efficient as it can be lowering my production costs. With Invention I need to spend a lot of money and time just to get a limited run BPC. That BPC cannot be improved and indeed comes out with dramatically worse stats than a fully researched BPO. Once I have used up my limited runs I need to go back to spending money and time if I want to produce any more. The BPO holder can cook items day and night for no more than the mat costs. So, Invention will nerf some T2 prices that enjoy absurd profit margins. But Invention as it stands today will NEVER be able to compete with a BPO holder. They will still essentially be granted a built in profit margin for life as no one can EVER compete on a level playing field no matter how well they play the game or what they do. When the Invention BPC guy builds an item and adds in all costs associated to determine a price that price will always be higher than what the BPO holder could do. BPO holder merely undercuts the Invention price by a smidge and they can go to the bank forever. This is fair in your mind? Either a new way to introduce BPOs into the game (via as a chance from Invention or something else) or current BPOs need to be removed.
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.03.15 16:25:00 - [36] Originally by: Laboratus Originally by: DarkMatter Once they revamp the joke of an invention system and introduce reverse engineering, things will be fine. Reducing supply always makes the ask price go up. Not to mention that removing BPOs will remove excisting industry structures, as the ppl who produced the components can no longer sell them with previous certanty. And unless the BPCs have enough runs to be in the cooker for about a month or so contineusly, production will be limited pretty much to own use or friends. Too much hassle otherwise and there still are easier ways of making isk. Oh well, things change, ppl will just have to adapt! Once invention is rolling, and is tweaked to not be so absurdly cost-ineffective, there will be no problems with supply... Building the homestead
Lemen Meringue Cult of Lemen	Posted - 2007.03.15 16:27:00 - [37] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: CCP Wrangler It's pretty much a oligopoly currently, which is pretty much as bad as a monopoly. If it is so bad, why don't you release the BPOs to the NPC market at appropriate prices? Just removing the BPO lottery won't really cheer up those people who are now thinking that the whole thing was rigged. No need to go that far. Just change the RP system to be like the new LP system. You save em up, and you go to a RP store to buy the BPO you want. Just get rid of the lottery- anyone given time can own any T2 BPO they want.
Xade Caldari K.T.P	Posted - 2007.03.15 16:27:00 - [38] Edited by: Xade on 15/03/2007 16:24:33 Originally by: Captin Lawdogg Edited by: Captin Lawdogg on 15/03/2007 14:14:49 Its called a monopoly, its not allowed in RL and should not be allowed in a game either imo, all it does is make prices skyrocket, which is great for the seller but very bad for everyone else. T2 BPO holders currently have a monoply on the market, its is very difficult if not impossible for anyone else to get a T2 Bpo unless they have billions of isk to purchase it. What are you talking about ? Do you know how the lottery works ? The lottery isn't based on how much isk you have its random. Its not a monopoly. Most types of BPO'S have loads originals distributed among the eve community which means multiple people are able to produce them. With regards to people buying them well my guess is if you got a T2 bpo yourself you probably wouldn't think twice about selling it, because thats what most people do. Most people go for short term riches but the smart people hang onto their bpo's, have played for years and thats why they are now able to buy other peoples bpo's now. Tbh anyway i think the op of this post has got it wrong. CCP have stated they will speed up the process of issuing the remainder of the bpo's before bringing in invention 100%. This indicates to me that the BPO's will remain in the game other wise why bother distributing the unseeded ones ? its more like invention replaces the lottery. T2 Bpo's will remain in game but the scrapping of the lottery means no more new BPO's will be available. However anything new seeded in the game will be only obtained as a bpc through the invention system.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.15 16:29:00 - [39] Originally by: Val Oman One should have to do some work to get such a high value item in an MMO. Sorry, but getting standings up, training skills and putting some agents on autopilot is not the level of effort the T2 BPOs deserved. I have had 5 R&D agents running for over a year, it took me a weekend to set them up. The new system using invention is fun, fair and interdependent. The lottery system was single player game stuff, the new system is MMO. Sorry you are getting screwed now with this 'nurf'. But many more people have been screwed by the lottery system than what this 'nurf' will do to a few. Your memory is a bit faulty. You can't train the needed skill in 1 week, even with +10 implants. 5 agents for 1 character require about 1 month, and the skill used for research is a t 4, not 5.
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.03.15 16:32:00 - [40] Originally by: Lemen Meringue Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: CCP Wrangler It's pretty much a oligopoly currently, which is pretty much as bad as a monopoly. If it is so bad, why don't you release the BPOs to the NPC market at appropriate prices? Just removing the BPO lottery won't really cheer up those people who are now thinking that the whole thing was rigged. No need to go that far. Just change the RP system to be like the new LP system. You save em up, and you go to a RP store to buy the BPO you want. Just get rid of the lottery- anyone given time can own any T2 BPO they want. You don't want that... Accumulation of BPO's in this game will not work... Agents handing out BPC's would be ok, but can't do that either, that's what invention is for... CCP has already turned RP's into datacores, that's pretty much in stone. Now all they need to do is close the gap between Invention & BPO holders profit margins to a more respectable level, then in time change the BPO's into BPC's. You could do this over a 1 year span, and it would be pretty transparent to everyone except the lucky bastards who are used to printing ISK, now they have to do some work for that ISK, boo ******* hoo... Building the homestead

Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.15 16:45:00 - [41] Originally by: Laboratus Originally by: Captin Lawdogg Edited by: Captin Lawdogg on 15/03/2007 14:14:49 Its called a monopoly, its not allowed in RL and should not be allowed in a game either imo, all it does is make prices skyrocket, which is great for the seller but very bad for everyone else. T2 BPO holders currently have a monoply on the market, its is very difficult if not impossible for anyone else to get a T2 Bpo unless they have billions of isk to purchase it. Not quite true. The exploitation of a monopoly causes inefficiences in the market. Some natural monopolies make prices go down. For example in national telephone, railroad, power networks, or municipal water, sewer etc... where there is no point in maintaining several overlapping systems. Wiki linkie The monopolies you speak of are heavily regulated (and in the case of the US the state run rail system is hugely inefficient and always losing money). If Hulk BPO owners want to be subjected to having their prices set by the EVE community I could live with that .
Cougem Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.15 16:49:00 - [42] I would increase the T2 BP drop rate massively, but make every T2 BP a BPC, rather than a BPO. The market wouldn't be flooded with items because CCP could control the drop rate, but the monopoly/oligopoly would be broken, as there are rivalling sellers. Also, it'd make it much easier for new players, as the older players would be spending their RPs much more often on BPCs, bringing them more inline with the noobs. Just my 2 cents anyway, though I confess I'm not very qualified to talk.
Decrepus Raiders of the Lost Cans	Posted - 2007.03.15 16:52:00 - [43] I have only been playing a few months but what exactly is the problem? I run a T2 fitting and I never minded the prices I pay. A few hours ratting in 0.0 pay for them, which isn't hard to do over the course of a week. If I PvPed more than I do now, I would simply fit cheaper instead of crying when I lose my ship. I just lost a full rack of T2 hammerheads to smartbombs the other day. I didn't get mad. I simply used the ransom that same guy paid yesterday to rebuy them.
Wizzkidy Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.03.15 16:57:00 - [44] Edited by: Wizzkidy on 15/03/2007 16:53:14 The only people that moan about CCP maybe deciding to remove BPO's from game are the people that don't have to put any work into the game to get billions upon billions of ISK. You can see it clear as day. Someone moans "oh no DONT remove BPO's (basicly saying I have one and I want my free ISK) this is not right and CCP will decide at some point what to do with these BPO's and I for one say turn them into BPC's (a high number of runs of course) but without this things will never change in the T2 market.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.03.15 17:03:00 - [45] Originally by: Wizzkidy Edited by: Wizzkidy on 15/03/2007 16:53:14 The only people that moan about CCP maybe deciding to remove BPO's from game are the people that don't have to put any work into the game to get billions upon billions of ISK. You can see it clear as day. Yes, the corps that worked months/years to acquire a T2 BPO portfolio sure didn't work for...Wait a minute ! ------------------------------------------ A big nuke may be nice in a strategy game, but something like this in a game where every unit is a player, and each death costly, is insane.
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.03.15 17:09:00 - [46] Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Wizzkidy Edited by: Wizzkidy on 15/03/2007 16:53:14 The only people that moan about CCP maybe deciding to remove BPO's from game are the people that don't have to put any work into the game to get billions upon billions of ISK. You can see it clear as day. Yes, the corps that worked months/years to acquire a T2 BPO portfolio sure didn't work for...Wait a minute ! Many ppl have been screwed by CCP, too bad for those who made that risky investment they don't always turn out you know... Building the homestead
Powdder CL0CKW0RK 0RANGE	Posted - 2007.03.15 17:12:00 - [47] Originally by: Hilabana I was shock to read the end of T2 BPO's is at hand .. removing the blueprint original lottery was put in the DEV Blog ! So i have work 4 years in a game to have some other person in the game mess up the 2 Bil ISK of work i have put into working for the R&D's and the 3 T2 BPO's that i now have will be taken away from me ? and every other long time player ? it is far to late for me and many other player to take all them points we have with our R&D and use them some other way! There comes a point in a game when new players can not have and do what the older long time players can do that is a fact of life in any thing you see. So it this now a way to mute all the older players skill and all the time and ISK they spent to cut us all out ? Just so the new players can do what a old player thats been playing for years can do ? Thanks a lot for the time Thief! wait.. let me get this right. you dont like it because you have 3 t2 obp and your gonna loose those right, and the fact that you have been playing for year? I have been playing since 2003, and have YET to get a t2 obp, and i have 3 research agents, and i do the missions almost every damed day. bottom line your incredibly lucky, congratulations. now if every long time player where given 3 t2 obp i guess you would have a probelm now would you?? I guess that billions of isk you make off them is kinda influnecing your ranking is that correct???????
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.15 17:12:00 - [48] Originally by: Humpalot Originally by: Venkul Mul Why almost all the "destroy T2 BPO" people sprout this idiocy? Becoming priceless? No one will pay a T2 BPO more than the possible return in 1 year (and that is the current price). But the return will decrease for the invention effect, so T2 BPO will decrease in value. Destroyng/removing the BPO will only make some item totally scarce. As the current system stands and the lottery is ended and the existing T2 BPOs are left in game they will be near priceless (doubt anyone would ever buy a T2 Micro Smartbomb but still...). With a BPO I can research it for ME and PE to make it as efficient as it can be lowering my production costs. With Invention I need to spend a lot of money and time just to get a limited run BPC. That BPC cannot be improved and indeed comes out with dramatically worse stats than a fully researched BPO. Once I have used up my limited runs I need to go back to spending money and time if I want to produce any more. The BPO holder can cook items day and night for no more than the mat costs. So, Invention will nerf some T2 prices that enjoy absurd profit margins. But Invention as it stands today will NEVER be able to compete with a BPO holder. They will still essentially be granted a built in profit margin for life as no one can EVER compete on a level playing field no matter how well they play the game or what they do. When the Invention BPC guy builds an item and adds in all costs associated to determine a price that price will always be higher than what the BPO holder could do. BPO holder merely undercuts the Invention price by a smidge and they can go to the bank forever. This is fair in your mind? Either a new way to introduce BPOs into the game (via as a chance from Invention or something else) or current BPOs need to be removed. Again, you are using a valid reasoning to support a totally false conclusion: - T2 BPO will become priceless - false conclusion T2 BPO will have a value of about 1 year of gain from production at most, probably less. The idea of removing T2 BPO means simply that price will raise instead of lowering. Production become unstable and scarce, most items will never be produced for the market. As a lot of people has pointed out the advantage of the person going the invention route is flexibility and the option to go for mass production, as they can use the data interface for multiple research, for the same t2 item or different ones. The BPO give lower costs, but a fixed production rate and a fixed product. I think that BPO should continue to enter the game, by invention or by R&D is indifferent to me (and here we have the same opinion, I see). Better if it is a system more documented than the current one so people will know that there is a x% chance of getting a BPO doing this and that. One of the big bug of the lottery system is that no one know really if there are system to increase the chance of success and a lot of speculations runn around. But removing them, after people has worked for them and on them (doing ME and PE research had a steep time requirement) seem only a petty revenge from people thinking they have been wronged as they haven't get them (and most of the people lamenting that has done nothing to get them). And again, I think it will be very important giving the % of success and productions runs of the inventions jobs, as currently most of the information is very nebulous.
Vasiliyan PAX Interstellar Services Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.15 17:40:00 - [49] Originally by: Hilabana [ The problem is not every one knows how to build up the points to get the Turn Over when there in Queue ! You're not guaranteed to get a blueprint from the lottery, I'm sure there are people who have been researching since day one and not got one.
Mistress Suffering Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2007.03.15 17:48:00 - [50] I'd like to simply see straight T2 BPOs added to the research and invention system. That way there would be a way to introduce more of them to the market, people of all experience levels could work hard and acquire them, and the existing BPOs would gradually drop in value over time. Seems like the least destructive solution that still solves the problem effectively.

fisty Aliastra	Posted - 2007.03.15 17:56:00 - [51] Originally by: Hilabana Originally by: Captin Lawdogg Its called a monopoly, its not allowed in RL and should not be allowed in a game either imo, all it does is make prices skyrocket, which is great for the seller but very bad for everyone else. It is called long term Investment ! its only a Monopoly when one person has them All !! monopoly= atleast 25% or more of market share... get a clue Ciao
Harry Paratesteas Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.03.15 18:26:00 - [52] Edited by: Harry Paratesteas on 15/03/2007 18:34:35 Edited by: Harry Paratesteas on 15/03/2007 18:22:51 Originally by: Trilliam Blackthorn Quote: There comes a point in a game when new players can not have and do what the older long time players can do Actually....it's called BALANCING THE GAME. For eve to be balanced, anything one player has achieved MUST be able to be achievable by any other player, either through time or effort (or both). Anything less is simply hard-coding an insurmountable advantage directly into the game. With that in mind, do honestly think "older" players should be granted advantages that new players cannot have simply because you "got here first"? If so, do you think that will be a strong selling point to grow the user base? Eve is a time skill based game. Older players are going to have advantages that newbs do not. They have invested the time & money to get there. If a new player doesn't see this and isn't patient enough, then this isnt the game for them and yes I'm a newb. Only 4 months old. Edit: As far as I'm concern, They should seed all T2 BPOs on the market and introduce T3 BPC only through invention and that's the only way anyone can get T3. No lottery, nothing. Now that would make a clean blank slate for everyone. It also takes into effect that those that devote their time to getting a T3 BPC, get their just reward. Harry Paratesteas War Correspondent
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.15 18:39:00 - [53] Originally by: Harry Paratesteas Edited by: Harry Paratesteas on 15/03/2007 18:22:51 Originally by: Trilliam Blackthorn Quote: There comes a point in a game when new players can not have and do what the older long time players can do Actually....it's called BALANCING THE GAME. For eve to be balanced, anything one player has achieved MUST be able to be achievable by any other player, either through time or effort (or both). Anything less is simply hard-coding an insurmountable advantage directly into the game. With that in mind, do honestly think "older" players should be granted advantages that new players cannot have simply because you "got here first"? If so, do you think that will be a strong selling point to grow the user base? Eve is a time skill based game. Older players are going to have advantages that newbs do not. They have invested the time & money to get there. If a new player doesn't see this and isn't patient enough, then this isnt the game for them and yes I'm a newb. Only 4 months old. but the new player will NEVER EVER be able to have it. Not even if they play for 340 years! If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.03.15 18:39:00 - [54] All the bpos still in the queue will stay in the queue and be 'won' under the old lottery rules. Personally I think all t2 bpos should be deleted. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Star Commander Got Corp?
Lemen Meringue Cult of Lemen	Posted - 2007.03.15 19:27:00 - [55] Originally by: DarkMatter Originally by: Lemen Meringue No need to go that far. Just change the RP system to be like the new LP system. You save em up, and you go to a RP store to buy the BPO you want. Just get rid of the lottery- anyone given time can own any T2 BPO they want. You don't want that... Accumulation of BPO's in this game will not work... How so? Works fine for T1 BPOs. Margins will be thin, equipment will be readily available, and you can still make a lot of money if you find a niche market. In reality they only really have two good options: 1) remove all t2 bpos and make invention the only way to get t2 stuff- that way it is fair for everyone going forward (obv people with t2 bpos now get hosed) or 2) make the bpos available so their new players have the same opportunity to acquire them as the old players did.
Laboratus Gallente BGG Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.03.15 19:33:00 - [56] Originally by: Humpalot The monopolies you speak of are heavily regulated (and in the case of the US the state run rail system is hugely inefficient and always losing money). If Hulk BPO owners want to be subjected to having their prices set by the EVE community I could live with that . Imagine how much money they would be losing and what it would look like, if you had 2, 3 or 4 railway lines in every place where there is one Anyway. Those are the simplest examples of monopolies. If you look through the link and read up a bit, you will find that natural monopolies can form in any market area, where economics of scale are larger than the cost of mass production to the point where supply meets demand. There are other forms of monopolies as well, and I agree that unregulated or artificially created monopolies cause inefficiences. Monopolies such as these are very common in, say software, music or movie industries, where the production and distribution is limited to the holders of the copyright, enabling price, availability and production amount control from the producing companies, damaging the overall economy through an exploited monopoly. However, I do belive in the case of the T2 market, the excistance of the T2 BPOs will keep the T2 component market stable and cause competition in that end with the BPO and BPC producers, shifting the advantage a bit there and the added produced amount will bring the price of the T2 items down, even though the T2 BPC producers can never really compete in price with the BPO producers, since they have costs from the production of the BPC in it self. If that price is low enough, T2 prices will crash... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Skarsnik Caldari A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.03.15 20:03:00 - [57] Originally by: Kagura Nikon but the new player will NEVER EVER be able to have it. Not even if they play for 340 years! Actually if that new player works hard for isk and makes a good offer to a T2 BPO holder who is willing to sell why shouldn't they be able to EVER get it? ------------- EVE-Ink Tattoo Project
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.03.15 20:25:00 - [58] Originally by: DarkMatter Originally by: Shadowsword Yes, the corps that worked months/years to acquire a T2 BPO portfolio sure didn't work for...Wait a minute ! Many ppl have been screwed by CCP, too bad for those who made that risky investment they don't always turn out you know... Remind me what the argumentation behind removing T2 Bpos is? Oh yes, people who didn't make any efforts fear that they'll be screwed by those who made efforts and/or are jealous of them... kinda ironic, don't you think? ------------------------------------------ A big nuke may be nice in a strategy game, but something like this in a game where every unit is a player, and each death costly, is insane.
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.15 20:39:00 - [59] Originally by: Shadowsword Remind me what the argumentation behind removing T2 Bpos is? Oh yes, people who didn't make any efforts fear that they'll be screwed by those who made efforts and/or are jealous of them... kinda ironic, don't you think? The argument is that in the future no one, regardless of how much work they put in, will be able to compete on anything approaching a level playing field with those who do have such BPOs (assuming there is no way to get a new BPO).
ED Grubermann Boot To The Head	Posted - 2007.03.15 20:59:00 - [60] one of my alts have 6 agents running now for RP... i'm saving these, hoping to get a t2 bpo, but if not, then i got a good head start on the improved invention system they will implement. the only real work in aquiring these agents, and any bpo's i might be lucky to get, was to get the 40 million for the skill book, and spending a few weeks getting high enough standing with the corporation. so the only people who have worked hard to aquire t2 bpo's, are the ones who have raised a huge amount of cash and bought these off of another player. i would love to see the bpo's converted into max run bpc's, but another way to eliminate the bpo owners ogligacy or what it was called, is to make a routine seeding like the t2 lottery, but of pure bpc's, and make them pop out regularly. That way everyone could be lucky to get a t2 bpc without having to spend insane amounts of cash on it.

AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.15 21:31:00 - [61] yar!....remove all T2 BPOs and watch faction gear become cheaper overnight.
maria stallion Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.15 21:36:00 - [62] if the tech2 bpo where removed the tech2 market would crash. no more cheap tech2 stuff, not only the vagabonds will be expensive then, but everything :P
Nacho Star	Posted - 2007.03.15 21:51:00 - [63] I say take them away. As a seasoned MMO player, I scoff at games where older players are given advantages that newer players will NEVER obtain. You will find my views almost universal among newer players. The old saying in MMOs sticks: When players are faced with only losing, they choose not to compete. Meaning...a whole lot of newer players will just quit. Why start a game where the wealth will always be in someone else's hands???
Allen Deckard Gallente WTB Supplies	Posted - 2007.03.15 21:59:00 - [64] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: CCP Wrangler It's pretty much a oligopoly currently, which is pretty much as bad as a monopoly. If it is so bad, why don't you release the BPOs to the NPC market at appropriate prices? Just removing the BPO lottery won't really cheer up those people who are now thinking that the whole thing was rigged. oh yippee another t1 market. Kentucky where the goats roam and the rednecks run free
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.03.15 22:05:00 - [65] Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: CCP Wrangler It's pretty much a oligopoly currently, which is pretty much as bad as a monopoly. A don't agree with that term. In a true oligopoly, the poor/newest has absolutely no chances to take power away from the rich/old, short of taking up arms and do a revolution. That is completely untrue in economics. The Airlines Industry is an Oligopoly, and you'll find that plenty of smaller airlines exist and can grow, despite the grip the major players have. TV and Phone services are the same way. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Kruugore Minmatar Vigilant Justice	Posted - 2007.03.15 22:20:00 - [66] If they were going to remove T2 BPO's. They shoudl convert them to T2 BPC's that would be able to produce items for at LEAST 1 year. Because that is what BPO's are priced at. EVE Vault, A Great Community
Gemini Zero Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.03.15 22:23:00 - [67] Originally by: Kruugore If they were going to remove T2 BPO's. They shoudl convert them to T2 BPC's that would be able to produce items for at LEAST 1 year. Because that is what BPO's are priced at. Initiating a new change that won't really effect anything for a year is not very 'need for speed' now is it??
Nacho Star	Posted - 2007.03.15 22:38:00 - [68] That's a little off-topic...and if you're interested, listen to a chat from the head of marketing at Airtran. I did and learned a few things like...they fly point to point direct instead of hubs and it saves a ton of money. They implemented the anywhere for $99 deal which all the other airlines followed...which is why all flights are now priced the same... Airtran just busted up the market from high-priced airfares. Without them, you would still pay an arm and a leg for air travel.
Haloe Minmatar Yakuza Corp Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.16 00:36:00 - [69] Edited by: Haloe on 16/03/2007 00:37:06 I don't have a T2 BPO. Hmmm, I don't even have a T1 BPO. Yet I make ISK, a fair amount by any standard... enough to play the game. I joined Eve late 2005 and I don't feel 'left behind' or 'hard done by'. I chose to specialise in a particular ship type and can fly them very well. While these 'rich T2 guys' are investing in time sinks like capital ships, I'm having a whale of a time. The lottery is/was imperfect. It's going away and CCP have offered up the alternative of invention. This will balance the market over time as the procedures are fine-tuned both by CCP and the player base. I am sure that some guys out there worked very hard to earn the ISK to buy their T2 BPO's - taking these away would achieve nothing. IMO keep them in the game but never replace BPO's again, whether they are destroyed or lie stagnant. Over time they will dwindle... but in a fair manner. I love this game. Edit: A lot of guys are speculating that some alliances are privy to informatioon from devs about the future of T2 - and that's why they're selling their T2 BPO's. My opinion: it's not about T2 at all. T3 is coming guys and there will be no BPO's. It will all be invention. And it will do to T2 what T2 did to T1 AKA: Sell your T2 BPO's while people are still paying. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Prophet Jurah Amarr	Posted - 2007.03.16 01:57:00 - [70] Originally by: Hilabana I was shock to read the end of T2 BPO's is at hand .. removing the blueprint original lottery was put in the DEV Blog ! So i have work 4 years in a game to have some other person in the game mess up the 2 Bil ISK of work i have put into working for the R&D's and the 3 T2 BPO's that i now have will be taken away from me ? and every other long time player ? it is far to late for me and many other player to take all them points we have with our R&D and use them some other way! There comes a point in a game when new players can not have and do what the older long time players can do that is a fact of life in any thing you see. So it this now a way to mute all the older players skill and all the time and ISK they spent to cut us all out ? Just so the new players can do what a old player thats been playing for years can do ? Thanks a lot for the time Thief! It has nothing to do with new players. It has to do with the fact that the lottery was badly designed and leads to things costing many times what they should. It also has to do with the imbalance of having something that you can make retarded amounts of profit from with very little work. There will always be things older players can do that new players can't, but this was just a bad system and needed to go.

Prophet Jurah Amarr	Posted - 2007.03.16 02:04:00 - [71] Originally by: meowmixmeow Originally by: Princess Jodi I've read al the forums on this and I don't see that the T2 BPO's will be eliminated. Just the lottery. But I Pray that the T2 BPO's will be destroyed! Eliminating any new T2 BPO's means the existing ones become priceless. Invention can NEVER compete with a T2 BPO holder. The farthest I'm willing to go in showing mercy to T2 BPO holders is to have the BPO's take damage similar to how Crystals do. That way, you might get lucky and produce off of them for a long time - but they might blow up tommorrow too. If you had them you wouldn't say that.. it all comes down to jealously. And if you didn't have them you would. In case you haven't noticed there are way more people that don't.
Trask Kilraen The Older Gamers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.03.16 03:30:00 - [72] Thee problem with the lottery is that customers aren;t getting what they paid for. You can theoretically build an R&D toon and over a period of YEARS, never get a T2 BPO. Meanwhile the next guy can theoretically get one a week after he starts his one R&D agent. It's random. And while skills can increase your chance of getting one, skills don't guarantee anything. Better to move to a BPC system (a little easier than current invention) that is based on relatively predictable skills. Economies can only function when supply can be adjusted to meet demand. With the current system, supply is fixed, resulting in artificial price pressures. The T1 eceonomy largely works.... trust the player base.
Captain BlueBeard	Posted - 2007.03.16 16:37:00 - [73] Originally by: Princess Jodi I've read al the forums on this and I don't see that the T2 BPO's will be eliminated. Just the lottery. But I Pray that the T2 BPO's will be destroyed! Eliminating any new T2 BPO's means the existing ones become priceless. Invention can NEVER compete with a T2 BPO holder. The farthest I'm willing to go in showing mercy to T2 BPO holders is to have the BPO's take damage similar to how Crystals do. That way, you might get lucky and produce off of them for a long time - but they might blow up tommorrow too. Invention will compete just fine with the greatly overpriced T2 items!! The key is to be sure you invent items that demand will never drop below a certain price for.... I.E. HACs, Hulks, and a few other items.
BIG Brain Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.16 16:53:00 - [74] 2007.03.13 14:02 Our research has been fruitful. I believe we could have a patentable 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II Blueprint. Contact me as soon as possible if you're interested. No, Not now! don't take it away from me after all these years of research. 50800RP's... BIG Lottery BIG Deal
Izzy Pol Fear and Loathing in LoneTrek	Posted - 2007.03.16 17:34:00 - [75] Originally by: BIG Brain 2007.03.13 14:02 Our research has been fruitful. I believe we could have a patentable 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II Blueprint. Contact me as soon as possible if you're interested. No, Not now! don't take it away from me after all these years of research. 50800RP's... Ooh, thats a nice one, grats. I'll give you eleventybillion ISK for it. Just set it up as a private auction to my corp yadayada
K'lairne	Posted - 2007.03.16 17:46:00 - [76] i aggree with hilabana because yes he is one of the long time playas and he has spent so much time doing this but to take it out of the game is stupid . if eve wants to create a game like life it should keep the blue print system the way it is . life is not balanced and it never will be , therefor eve should not be balanced but with a little chance of everyone becomeing rich . Even though in life becomeing rich like in eve is impossiable but if we couldnt all become rich the game would be crap . if eve becomes balanced who knows what could happen !!!
Jalen Rose Bre-X Heavy Industries	Posted - 2007.03.16 18:02:00 - [77] Removing t2 bpo's from the game would remove the core, organized and reliable production supply from the market. Prices would go up. As an r&d character for almost 3 years now, having recently finally gotten a bpo from my agent, I'd feel extremely cheated as well for having spent 3 years playing this game to get my carrot simply to have it taken away. However from experience it takes good logistics to produce and also to market t2 product. Not all t2 bpo's are created equal. The "isk printing" bpo's are not the rule but the exception. Many t2 products would not be manufactured at all with the economics of invention, prices would need to rise to provide incentive. Saying this though, invention should be tweaked instead to allow the players of eve to be an appendix for t2 production. Balance it such that yes it will be easier and more and more cost effective to use invention so that players can keep prices in check on those products that some perceive as over priced. With the new system CCP merely needs to make invention more economically viable as an alternative to t2. Keeping bpo's and making it so r&d characters can actually be scientists rather than waiting for their lotto ticket is good. It also doesn't give 3 year old researchers like me a kick in the junk after finally having some success with the lottery.
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.16 18:14:00 - [78] Originally by: Haloe Edit: A lot of guys are speculating that some alliances are privy to informatioon from devs about the future of T2 - and that's why they're selling their T2 BPO's. My opinion: it's not about T2 at all. T3 is coming guys and there will be no BPO's. It will all be invention. And it will do to T2 what T2 did to T1 AKA: Sell your T2 BPO's while people are still paying. T3 may well be all invention (we don't know yet but seems reasonable). Nevertheless if T3 is like T2 then T3 will be built on the back of T2 items. That means that T2 will become even more lucrative since not only will you have the market to actually use T2 mods on your ships (or T2 ships themselves) you will have a market seeking T2 items in order to conjure up T3 items. If no more T2 BPOs are ever introduced those who do have them will have a built in ISK printing machine for little to no effort. Invention and the BPCs it turns out can not compete with a T2 BPO holder...not even close as it stands today. Only insofar as T2 BPO holders may not be able to keep up with demand will an Invention market be able to exist but still those T2 BPO holders will be making profits FAR in excess of those done by invention. If no more T2 BPOs are let in but those out allowed to remain those with BPOs will have a literally insurmountable advantage in the markets.
Nacho Star	Posted - 2007.03.16 18:22:00 - [79] Originally by: K'lairne i aggree with hilabana because yes he is one of the long time playas and he has spent so much time doing this but to take it out of the game is stupid . if eve wants to create a game like life it should keep the blue print system the way it is . life is not balanced and it never will be , therefor eve should not be balanced but with a little chance of everyone becomeing rich . Even though in life becomeing rich like in eve is impossiable but if we couldnt all become rich the game would be crap . if eve becomes balanced who knows what could happen !!! I agree with your "like-life comment." Let me reverse engineer T2 BPOs which you research so I can get them produced far cheaper from a third-world country. Life isn't fair...like you said and in real life, I would be able to duplicate or change one part of the design and come up with my own.
DrEiak Amarr IONSTAR Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.17 01:18:00 - [80] That is not true, I did R&D for 5 months and won my T2 ship BPO, I havnt even gotten it out of research to make one yet, so saying players cant get into T2 lottery is rediculous. People on eve today are just freaking lazy, get off your freaking ass and get some goddamn R&D agents... I am tired of things getting changed because the people *****ing are too lazy to earn, and too poor to buy isk (NOT that i support that). But seriously, if your lazy dont complain, if you have a VALID argument make it. INVENTION was a good idea, but removing T2 lottery is ripping off the 7 million SP i had to invest, and 1000s of cargo missions i ran to be able to compete with the big dawgs.....

Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.03.17 02:42:00 - [81] It never fails to amaze me how the people with the least understanding of how the economy works in this game are most always the most vocal about destroying T2 BPO's. How about we remove all BPO's from EVE, and only have BPC's available eh? How about we pick whatever it is your character does to make a living in EVE and decide that your capacity to make isk that way is unfair and do away with it. Sure, lets do away with the T2 BPO's and watch the T2 market devolve into something truly hilarious. Lets cut to the meat of it, shall we? As Invention gets tweaked into shape, the highest priced T2 items will by neccesity drop drastically in price. In fact, most everything T2 will drop in price unless the price is already in the gutter (this would include over half of the T2 items currently being produced). T2 BPO owners will have a slight advantage over Inventers, but due to the slow pace of production with a T2 BPO, it will hardly be the mythical "ISK printing machine" people fantisize about (and yes, we in the industry know that aside from a handful of cases T2 production is a far cry from and isk printing machine... but it's pointless to confuse people with the facts). Hopefully, thanks to Invention, you people will have the chance to find out first hand just how full of crap you have been since T2 production began. It should be highly amusing to watch.
Haloe Yakuza Corp	Posted - 2007.03.17 02:54:00 - [82] Originally by: Humpalot Originally by: Haloe Edit: A lot of guys are speculating that some alliances are privy to informatioon from devs about the future of T2 - and that's why they're selling their T2 BPO's. My opinion: it's not about T2 at all. T3 is coming guys and there will be no BPO's. It will all be invention. And it will do to T2 what T2 did to T1 AKA: Sell your T2 BPO's while people are still paying. T3 may well be all invention (we don't know yet but seems reasonable). Nevertheless if T3 is like T2 then T3 will be built on the back of T2 items. That means that T2 will become even more lucrative since not only will you have the market to actually use T2 mods on your ships (or T2 ships themselves) you will have a market seeking T2 items in order to conjure up T3 items. If no more T2 BPOs are ever introduced those who do have them will have a built in ISK printing machine for little to no effort. Invention and the BPCs it turns out can not compete with a T2 BPO holder...not even close as it stands today. Only insofar as T2 BPO holders may not be able to keep up with demand will an Invention market be able to exist but still those T2 BPO holders will be making profits FAR in excess of those done by invention. If no more T2 BPOs are let in but those out allowed to remain those with BPOs will have a literally insurmountable advantage in the markets. I read your post a couple of times. You make sense. BUT. Nothing in Eve is insurmountable. I think T3 will be beyond what the relationship is between T2 and T1 currently. T3 (imo) is going to be a combination of exploration, invention, salvaging, research, and teamwork. Every single item is going to represent a monumental effort by a team of people. And (hint hint CCP) it will be worth it. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bohoba Caldari Dragons United Pure.	Posted - 2007.03.17 03:22:00 - [83] Ok been playing eve for 3 years now I just made me a char on my 3rd account to train in RD agents, now my Q is what is the point of RD agents going to be then you don't need them to train a skill the T2 lotto was the only reason I was going to do this but now I might as well just stick to PVP :) darn it was the only thing in eve I had not played with and now it's gone :( Get Into the Game it makes it fun for all
Haloe Yakuza Corp	Posted - 2007.03.17 03:27:00 - [84] Originally by: Bohoba Ok been playing eve for 3 years now I just made me a char on my 3rd account to train in RD agents, now my Q is what is the point of RD agents going to be then you don't need them to train a skill the T2 lotto was the only reason I was going to do this but now I might as well just stick to PVP :) darn it was the only thing in eve I had not played with and now it's gone :( Spend RP's to get free datacores. Sell for super-ISK. Easy money. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2007.03.17 03:28:00 - [85] Originally by: Nero Scuro So you want messed up, snip gameplay mechanics to remain in place just so you can keep all your imaginary snip money? It's a game. snip Play nice, he is entitled to his opinion without getting flamed - Wrangler This is actually funnier with the snips "If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor." -Albert Einstein Member of the [UTSFAH] corp.
Achyra Webmistress	Posted - 2007.03.17 04:26:00 - [86] Quote: Please give us a link where they explicitly say the will NOT be removing them. Please give us a link where the devs have explicitly stated that they will not be going to each player's RL home and giving them an ice cream cone. Please give us a link where the devs have explicitly stated that they will not be changing the color of space from black to orange with purple polka-dots. Please give us a link where the devs have explicitly stated that they will not be raising the monthly fee for EVE to $1500 starting next month. If you can't provide these links, then the only assumption that we can all make is that those things will be happening.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks	Posted - 2007.03.17 04:34:00 - [87] Originally by: Jalen Rose Removing t2 bpo's from the game would remove the core, organized and reliable production supply from the market. Prices would go up. As an r&d character for almost 3 years now, having recently finally gotten a bpo from my agent, I'd feel extremely cheated as well for having spent 3 years playing this game to get my carrot simply to have it taken away. However from experience it takes good logistics to produce and also to market t2 product. Not all t2 bpo's are created equal. The "isk printing" bpo's are not the rule but the exception. Many t2 products would not be manufactured at all with the economics of invention, prices would need to rise to provide incentive. Saying this though, invention should be tweaked instead to allow the players of eve to be an appendix for t2 production. Balance it such that yes it will be easier and more and more cost effective to use invention so that players can keep prices in check on those products that some perceive as over priced. With the new system CCP merely needs to make invention more economically viable as an alternative to t2. Keeping bpo's and making it so r&d characters can actually be scientists rather than waiting for their lotto ticket is good. It also doesn't give 3 year old researchers like me a kick in the junk after finally having some success with the lottery. This^^^^ so yeah: Leave the T2 BPOs, let fixed invention handle the highest priced goods, problem solved. I'm sure CCP will leave them the way they are anyhow, and just fix invention, it's really the only logical course of action.
Kruugore Minmatar Vigilant Justice	Posted - 2007.03.17 04:54:00 - [88] Originally by: Nero Scuro So you want messed up, snip gameplay mechanics to remain in place just so you can keep all your imaginary snip money? It's a game. snip Play nice, he is entitled to his opinion without getting flamed - Wrangler I find Irony in the content of your post given your sig. It's very amusing Nero Scuro. EVE Vault, A Great Community
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.17 04:55:00 - [89] Originally by: Ranger 1 It never fails to amaze me how the people with the least understanding of how the economy works in this game are most always the most vocal about destroying T2 BPO's. It never fails to amaze me the number of people who claim to have a good grasp on economics seem to miss the most obvious, Econ-101 points. Quote: Lets cut to the meat of it, shall we? As Invention gets tweaked into shape, the highest priced T2 items will by neccesity drop drastically in price. In fact, most everything T2 will drop in price unless the price is already in the gutter (this would include over half of the T2 items currently being produced). T2 BPO owners will have a slight advantage over Inventers, but due to the slow pace of production with a T2 BPO, it will hardly be the mythical "ISK printing machine" people fantisize about (and yes, we in the industry know that aside from a handful of cases T2 production is a far cry from and isk printing machine... but it's pointless to confuse people with the facts). Unless you tweak Invention to produce perfect ME/PE BPOs it will never, ever, be as profitable as owning a BPO. Or, put another way, a BPO owner will always be able to undercut the price of someone building with Invention. As it stands the person using Invention to build can never produce an item as efficiently as a BPO holder. Their ME/PE will be garbage in comparison. They also have neverending costs associated with getting one BPC after another (gathering all the mats to Invent the BPC, failed goes at making the BPC, time to run the Invention job, etc.) and this is all before building one single item. Once they get their BPC it still cannot produce an item as cheaply or quickly as the BPO holder can. Yes Invention will bring down prices on the absurdly priced uber T2 ISK machines (Hulk for example). Eventually however prices will drop to below what it costs a person using Invention to produce that item and people will stop bothering to Invent that item. Prices will normalize around there and it will be a price point that is still lucrative for the BPO holder (just not as insanely lucrative in some cases). The only real way Invention people will find a market is if the BPO holders cannot meet demand. Then prices will rise till enough people feel it is worth the effort to Invent and the market finds its equilibrium point.
Kruugore Minmatar Vigilant Justice	Posted - 2007.03.17 04:55:00 - [90] Originally by: Gemini Zero Originally by: Kruugore If they were going to remove T2 BPO's. They shoudl convert them to T2 BPC's that would be able to produce items for at LEAST 1 year. Because that is what BPO's are priced at. Initiating a new change that won't really effect anything for a year is not very 'need for speed' now is it?? No, but it's fair. But since we dont' know what's going to happen I've held off buying T2 BPO's that come up for auction. EVE Vault, A Great Community

bogir War And Peace Construction	Posted - 2007.03.17 05:23:00 - [91] Edited by: bogir on 17/03/2007 05:23:18 I do NOT have any T2 BPOs.. yes i have some R&D agents. yes i looked in to the invention.. as it is now.. there are a WAY higher demand on a lot of T2 items.. the resion is a bigger bace of players in eve. when i started eve over a year ago, there was under hafe of the player bace as there is now.. i have NO problems whit the way the lottery is now... they shout just seed a LOT more BPOs in to the game.. and the invention systen is allso oki... its the price of datacores and the low number of runs of the BPC we get there is the problem.. if you seed more T2 BPOs and more datacors aka lower RP price of em to 50 a pop and increase drop rate the price will go down, higher the number of runs on a the BPC allso.. then all can get there hans on em - and there will be produced more of the T2 stuff. aka the demand will be lower. sins way more players will make the stuff. i dont relly see the problems. do you guys allso cry each time some random persion wins the lotttery and get 300mill$ out of the blue????? STOP crying and just play the game. Edit - if / when the T3 stuff come out.. then make the only way to get it invention.
Shi Thead Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.17 06:02:00 - [92] Do not remove the T2 BPO's. In fact, seed the market with them at npc stations. Change invention to where it is used to get bpc's for faction ships, equipment.
bogir War And Peace Construction	Posted - 2007.03.17 07:27:00 - [93] Originally by: Shi Thead Do not remove the T2 BPO's. In fact, seed the market with them at npc stations. Change invention to where it is used to get bpc's for faction ships, equipment. problem whit seeding em at NPC. then its just the new T1 marked.. and invention for faction stuff.. aka then thats it no longer "hard to get"
Kwame	Posted - 2007.03.17 07:54:00 - [94] Originally by: Harry Paratesteas Edited by: Harry Paratesteas on 15/03/2007 18:34:35 Edited by: Harry Paratesteas on 15/03/2007 18:22:51 Edit: As far as I'm concern, They should seed all T2 BPOs on the market and introduce T3 BPC only through invention and that's the only way anyone can get T3. No lottery, nothing. Now that would make a clean blank slate for everyone. It also takes into effect that those that devote their time to getting a T3 BPC, get their just reward. Best answer I've read to solve the T2/Lottery problem.
Gaurav ETERNAL EQUINOX	Posted - 2007.03.17 07:56:00 - [95] Kwame is my alt.
Sovy Kurosei Amarr Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.17 07:59:00 - [96] Originally by: Kwame Originally by: Harry Paratesteas Edit: As far as I'm concern, They should seed all T2 BPOs on the market and introduce T3 BPC only through invention and that's the only way anyone can get T3. No lottery, nothing. Now that would make a clean blank slate for everyone. It also takes into effect that those that devote their time to getting a T3 BPC, get their just reward. Best answer I've read to solve the T2/Lottery problem. This isn't solving the T2 problem. By leaving T2 alone and going to T3 you are just ignoring T2, not fixing it. ___________________ Feel free to contact me in-game or join my public channel THERI-Public.
Callthetruth Caldari Logical Logtistics	Posted - 2007.03.17 08:01:00 - [97] t2 BPOs will be convered into something like 10000 run BPCs - it will happen one dt without notice a few weeks befor a big patch when invention comes in. So NOW is a good time to sell to those that dont know
Gaurav ETERNAL EQUINOX	Posted - 2007.03.17 08:30:00 - [98] Edited by: Gaurav on 17/03/2007 08:30:37 Originally by: Sovy Kurosei Originally by: Kwame Originally by: Harry Paratesteas Edit: As far as I'm concern, They should seed all T2 BPOs on the market and introduce T3 BPC only through invention and that's the only way anyone can get T3. No lottery, nothing. Now that would make a clean blank slate for everyone. It also takes into effect that those that devote their time to getting a T3 BPC, get their just reward. Best answer I've read to solve the T2/Lottery problem. This isn't solving the T2 problem. By leaving T2 alone and going to T3 you are just ignoring T2, not fixing it. By seeding T2 BPOs on the market I think he means seeding them through the NPCs. If this is still doing nothing with the T2 BPOs, then explain please. If CCP wants a working economy in EVE they should look into Perfect competition. 1. All firms sell an identical product. 2. All firms are price takers. 3. All firms have a relatively small market share. 4. Buyers know the nature of the product being sold and the prices charged by each firm. 5. The industry is characterized by freedom of entry and exit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_competition
bogir War And Peace Construction	Posted - 2007.03.17 09:02:00 - [99] new pacth info for Invention: Invention * The research point cost to purchase datacores from research agents has been decreased dramatically. * Decryptors now add to the max runs outcome of the blueprints as originally intended. * The limit of data cores you can buy each day has been raised to 4000. * Drop rate of Encryption Method skills has been increased. * Drop rate of data cores has been increased. * The invention requirements of the 75mm Railgun have been corrected. * The Hulk is now listed as a variant for T1 mining barges and can be invented as a result. form pacth note... this is drop the price of datacores and make it so we can compeat just a littel whit a T2 BPO.. cant wait to see whats happens
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.17 09:10:00 - [100] Originally by: Humpalot Quote: Lets cut to the meat of it, shall we? As Invention gets tweaked into shape, the highest priced T2 items will by neccesity drop drastically in price. In fact, most everything T2 will drop in price unless the price is already in the gutter (this would include over half of the T2 items currently being produced). T2 BPO owners will have a slight advantage over Inventers, but due to the slow pace of production with a T2 BPO, it will hardly be the mythical "ISK printing machine" people fantisize about (and yes, we in the industry know that aside from a handful of cases T2 production is a far cry from and isk printing machine... but it's pointless to confuse people with the facts). Unless you tweak Invention to produce perfect ME/PE BPOs it will never, ever, be as profitable as owning a BPO. Or, put another way, a BPO owner will always be able to undercut the price of someone building with Invention. As it stands the person using Invention to build can never produce an item as efficiently as a BPO holder. Their ME/PE will be garbage in comparison. They also have neverending costs associated with getting one BPC after another (gathering all the mats to Invent the BPC, failed goes at making the BPC, time to run the Invention job, etc.) and this is all before building one single item. Once they get their BPC it still cannot produce an item as cheaply or quickly as the BPO holder can. Yes Invention will bring down prices on the absurdly priced uber T2 ISK machines (Hulk for example). Eventually however prices will drop to below what it costs a person using Invention to produce that item and people will stop bothering to Invent that item. Prices will normalize around there and it will be a price point that is still lucrative for the BPO holder (just not as insanely lucrative in some cases). The only real way Invention people will find a market is if the BPO holders cannot meet demand. Then prices will rise till enough people feel it is worth the effort to Invent and the market finds its equilibrium point. That is exactly were it should go. Current prices of some item are inflated as production is lower than demand. Invention will move the price to the point where production cost with invention + reasonable gain meet demand. But that will work only on seriously overpriced items. If you remove the T2 BPO the items with a low margin will go up in price as very little people will invent them. It is possible that the items with very high margin will go down the same, but I dubt it, as production will be discontinue and people will put the item produced on sale at the highest price they will see in the item history. When the price go down the inventor will simply change the item he is researching, till the price go up again, so a system based on invention alone will see a "flavor of the month" product, changing from month to month as the higher priced items change. Instead, it the T2 BPO stay in game, the BPO owner, that can't change his production, will lower his prices to sell them, and as most of the people willing and capable of paying high prices will have brought the items when there were a glut on market from invention, he should keep the price low to sell what he produce. This situation will both reduce the T2 BPO owner income and the market prices of T2 items. Inventors will get less from T2, but will have the capacity to follow the market trends, researcing only the big profit items. To me it seem a win/win situation: T2 BPO owners get a good income, inventors get a good income (with more work, but they can change production easily), costumers get cheaper good. The only point I strongly agree with most people in this thread is that the invention end result should not have negative PE an ME, and instead it should have positive ones based on the original BPC.

Lord Boxxer	Posted - 2007.03.17 11:38:00 - [101] Originally by: meowmixmeow Some examples of useless t2 bpo's Gatling Pulse Laser II Micro Graviton Smartbomb II Micro Proton Smartbomb II Quad Beam Laser II .. Gatling Pulse Laser II is such a great weapon really
Lord Boxxer	Posted - 2007.03.17 11:38:00 - [102] Originally by: meowmixmeow Some examples of useless t2 bpo's Gatling Pulse Laser II Micro Graviton Smartbomb II Micro Proton Smartbomb II Quad Beam Laser II .. Gatling Pulse Laser II is such a great weapon really
papaPadla Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.17 15:31:00 - [103] Originally by: Hilabana I was shock to read the end of T2 BPO's is at hand .. removing the blueprint original lottery was put in the DEV Blog ! So i have work 4 years in a game to have some other person in the game mess up the 2 Bil ISK of work i have put into working for the R&D's and the 3 T2 BPO's that i now have will be taken away from me ? and every other long time player ? it is far to late for me and many other player to take all them points we have with our R&D and use them some other way! There comes a point in a game when new players can not have and do what the older long time players can do that is a fact of life in any thing you see. So it this now a way to mute all the older players skill and all the time and ISK they spent to cut us all out ? Just so the new players can do what a old player thats been playing for years can do ? Thanks a lot for the time Thief! I think that your huge 2 bil investment is of big concern to everyone... grow up... the problem here is the players with 2000 bilions invested in this -------------------------------------
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.17 16:10:00 - [104] Originally by: bogir new pacth info for Invention: Invention * The research point cost to purchase datacores from research agents has been decreased dramatically. * Decryptors now add to the max runs outcome of the blueprints as originally intended. * The limit of data cores you can buy each day has been raised to 4000. * Drop rate of Encryption Method skills has been increased. * Drop rate of data cores has been increased. * The invention requirements of the 75mm Railgun have been corrected. * The Hulk is now listed as a variant for T1 mining barges and can be invented as a result. form pacth note... this is drop the price of datacores and make it so we can compeat just a littel whit a T2 BPO.. cant wait to see whats happens Even if datacores were free Invention still cannot compete effectively. There is the added time just to do Invention and the BPC you get is always crap in ME/PE versus what a BPO can do.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.17 16:17:00 - [105] So invention should be 0 cost and give high ME and PE BPC, other requests?
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.17 16:19:00 - [106] Originally by: Venkul Mul stuff I agree with much of what you are saying but I think it still misses the point. If T2 BPOs stop being seeded then nothing I ever do will ever be able to compete with those already fortunate enough to have a T2 BPO. It is not a matter of being lazy on my part. Nothing I do can ever compete...ever. You will have hard coded an inherent advantage to some few that no amount of good gameplay on anyone else's part can overcome. I do agree with you and worry that if production were left solely to Invention you would see wild swings in availability (and hence prices) of items as people switched to item-of-the-month. That would not be good. However, have you also considered that T2 BPO holders will likely become reluctant to hand out BPCs? Why would a BPO holder hand you a tool to undercut their own production/pricing? It would be silly. At the least you will likely see prices rise on T2 BPCs such that the cost of Inventing them again reinforces the inflated prices T2 currently enjoys. Honestly I think removing T2 BPOs is not the right way to go but is preferrable to handing a built in advantage to certain players forever. I think the best solution is some new way to continue to introrduce BPOs into the playerbase (via as a chance occurrence of Invention although that seems a bit like the lottery in another guise...open to suggestions).
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.17 16:40:00 - [107] Originally by: Humpalot Originally by: Venkul Mul stuff I agree with much of what you are saying but I think it still misses the point. If T2 BPOs stop being seeded then nothing I ever do will ever be able to compete with those already fortunate enough to have a T2 BPO. It is not a matter of being lazy on my part. Nothing I do can ever compete...ever. You will have hard coded an inherent advantage to some few that no amount of good gameplay on anyone else's part can overcome. I do agree with you and worry that if production were left solely to Invention you would see wild swings in availability (and hence prices) of items as people switched to item-of-the-month. That would not be good. However, have you also considered that T2 BPO holders will likely become reluctant to hand out BPCs? Why would a BPO holder hand you a tool to undercut their own production/pricing? It would be silly. At the least you will likely see prices rise on T2 BPCs such that the cost of Inventing them again reinforces the inflated prices T2 currently enjoys. Honestly I think removing T2 BPOs is not the right way to go but is preferrable to handing a built in advantage to certain players forever. I think the best solution is some new way to continue to introrduce BPOs into the playerbase (via as a chance occurrence of Invention although that seems a bit like the lottery in another guise...open to suggestions). You can be sure that no T2 BPO holder will make copyes, but for a very basic reason: making a 1 run copi of T2 BPO require a longer time than producing 1 run of material, so the BPC would cost the same or more than the produced item. Putting the T2 BPO on market don't seem a solution too. I prefer a chance to get a T2 BPO through invention. An idea could be to put a T1 BPO to "cook" with a R&D agend for x time (RP point based?), to get the T2 BPO. All the RP produced are used on the BPO, and the BPO is locked to the agent, so the player researcher as real costs (no use of the BPO, no RP point accrued), eventually a ISK cost or some decent research missions (like 1 every week but requiring some effort). If the player researcher and the R&D agent will both need the relevant skills it could be very interesting (the t2 BPO I have seen require multiple science skills),as the player need to search and "befriend" the right agent . An important thing is some clear information on the time/RP needed, if there is a chance of failure, ecc. I feel that a small number of T2 BPO entering the game will be always needed, and the lottery isn't the best sistem for that. My apologies as in some of my replyes I have been a bit hard.
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.03.17 16:49:00 - [108] Originally by: Sovy Kurosei Originally by: Kwame Originally by: Harry Paratesteas Edit: As far as I'm concern, They should seed all T2 BPOs on the market and introduce T3 BPC only through invention and that's the only way anyone can get T3. No lottery, nothing. Now that would make a clean blank slate for everyone. It also takes into effect that those that devote their time to getting a T3 BPC, get their just reward. Best answer I've read to solve the T2/Lottery problem. This isn't solving the T2 problem. By leaving T2 alone and going to T3 you are just ignoring T2, not fixing it. Technology evolves...why have sillt game mechanics to create artificial resrictions on who can evolve with it? Let invention generate t2 bpos with no preset limit. It only makes sense that t2 eventually resplace t1 as the standard. And its a good thing that Eve follows the increasing knowledge {sp} along with tech trend. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Star Commander Got Corp?
Blue Stratos Amarr BOOM - Gotcha	Posted - 2007.03.17 16:52:00 - [109] Originally by: Hilabana I was shock to read the end of T2 BPO's is at hand .. removing the blueprint original lottery was put in the DEV Blog ! So i have work 4 years in a game to have some other person in the game mess up the 2 Bil ISK of work i have put into working for the R&D's and the 3 T2 BPO's that i now have will be taken away from me ? and every other long time player ? it is far to late for me and many other player to take all them points we have with our R&D and use them some other way! There comes a point in a game when new players can not have and do what the older long time players can do that is a fact of life in any thing you see. So it this now a way to mute all the older players skill and all the time and ISK they spent to cut us all out ? Just so the new players can do what a old player thats been playing for years can do ? Thanks a lot for the time Thief! Lemme trasnlate MUM MUM, I DID THIS AND LOOK, THERE DOING THIS, I DONT WANT THEM TO, MUM MUM, GO TO ICELAND, TELL THEM OFF, PLEASE, I DONT WANT TO LOSE OUT, MUM MUM PLS :/
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2007.03.17 16:55:00 - [110] Originally by: Humpalot Even if datacores were free Invention still cannot compete effectively. There is the added time just to do Invention and the BPC you get is always crap in ME/PE versus what a BPO can do. this is utterly incorrect. You may have less efficient bpc's, but you can outproduce a bpo holder in volume by running multiple production runs while they can only runa single factory. If the profit margin isn't there, you can move to another item, they cannot. ---------------------- FTEK \| Production ~ Research ~ Sales ~ Election Fixing

AvatarADV	Posted - 2007.03.17 16:58:00 - [111] I'm... not seeing the problem with leaving 'em in. The -major- costs of invention are the interface (which is a one-off expense) and the datacores. Yes, yes, you need a T1 BPC and a decryptor, but those aren't where you're spending the big bucks. The interface prices have dropped significantly since CCP increased the drop rate of the parts and the blueprints. You can now, if you're a reasonably good explorer or wealthy enough to pay one for a little while, roll your own interface without terrible amounts of trouble. The market price is lower as well, though this may spike back up somewhat now that invention's going to get a LOT more popular. The datacores were the large remaining stumbling block. Expensive, because people didn't want to cash them in, given that they were the ticket to the T2 lotto. Also expensive in that those people who did want to cash in were throttled to just how fast it could happen. Now, we're getting a patch that drastically reduces the RP cost of the datacores and moves the limit on cashing them in to a huge number. At the same time, we know that the T2 BPO lotto is practically exhausted. Expected response, a flood of datacores hits the market. (Once the T2 lotto is over, we can expect practically every RP in the game to be converted over, which will crash the price of datacores right quick. So it's not unreasonable that some players will abandon their slim hope of a T2 BPO in exchange for getting more for the datacores right now. That'll increase the supply on the market and trend those prices downward immediately...) Yes, yes, the T2 BPO will always have something of an advantage, but it's not like T2 items are running around with one-percent profit margins. There's still plenty of room for you to make money. More to the point, it's unlikely that invention will "make the T2 market into the T1 market", because for all that it's easier to do, invention's still somewhat complicated and a pain in the butt; people aren't going to invent things that don't yield them a profit, unless it's just unavailable on the market otherwise (in which case, can't it yield them a profit? ;p)
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.17 17:09:00 - [112] Originally by: Venkul Mul Putting the T2 BPO on market don't seem a solution too. I prefer a chance to get a T2 BPO through invention. An idea could be to put a T1 BPO to "cook" with a R&D agend for x time (RP point based?), to get the T2 BPO. All the RP produced are used on the BPO, and the BPO is locked to the agent, so the player researcher as real costs (no use of the BPO, no RP point accrued), eventually a ISK cost or some decent research missions (like 1 every week but requiring some effort). If the player researcher and the R&D agent will both need the relevant skills it could be very interesting (the t2 BPO I have seen require multiple science skills),as the player need to search and "befriend" the right agent . An important thing is some clear information on the time/RP needed, if there is a chance of failure, ecc. I feel that a small number of T2 BPO entering the game will be always needed, and the lottery isn't the best sistem for that. This is a tough one. If you just make a base chance to earn a T2 BPO then eventually, with enough people doing it long enough, you will have a flood of T2 BPOs out there and end up with what we see in the T1 market (essentially commoditization of the T1 market). If CCP does it that only a fixed number dribble out every week/month/whatever then you are really just back to the lottery in a different guise. Certainly the wrong answer is for CCP to manually control it as they have done with the lottery. With no rhyme or reason to when they would happen and what BPOs would go out coupled with the glacial pace at which CCP allows things like this to be introduced bolloxed up the whole thing. Haven't seen an efficient state run economy yet and this is what that amounted to. Whatever the answer I suspect the best one will be to allow the players and markets sort themselves out under the built in forces that naturally guide these things. Manually mucking about with the market by CCP would be asking for more trouble.
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.17 17:11:00 - [113] Originally by: Omber Zombie Originally by: Humpalot Even if datacores were free Invention still cannot compete effectively. There is the added time just to do Invention and the BPC you get is always crap in ME/PE versus what a BPO can do. this is utterly incorrect. You may have less efficient bpc's, but you can outproduce a bpo holder in volume by running multiple production runs while they can only runa single factory. If the profit margin isn't there, you can move to another item, they cannot. You're kidding right? One multiple run BPC will only run in one slot. Besides, BPO holders can generate BPCs to run multiple slots if they like. As for "switching" production true enough but the BPO holder can do Invention too so they can do everything you can and then some.
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2007.03.17 17:19:00 - [114] Originally by: Humpalot You're kidding right? One multiple run BPC will only run in one slot. Besides, BPO holders can generate BPCs to run multiple slots if they like. 1. no 2. correct,it takes you 1hr and 10mins to make a bpc, and you can make 10 in one go 3. It takes longer to make a t2bpc from a bpo than it takes to build the item Quote: As for "switching" production true enough but the BPO holder can do Invention too so they can do everything you can and then some. fantastic, they have slightly more efficient single slot than one of your 10. ---------------------- FTEK \| Production ~ Research ~ Sales ~ Election Fixing
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.17 17:20:00 - [115] Originally by: Humpalot Originally by: Omber Zombie Originally by: Humpalot Even if datacores were free Invention still cannot compete effectively. There is the added time just to do Invention and the BPC you get is always crap in ME/PE versus what a BPO can do. this is utterly incorrect. You may have less efficient bpc's, but you can outproduce a bpo holder in volume by running multiple production runs while they can only runa single factory. If the profit margin isn't there, you can move to another item, they cannot. You're kidding right? One multiple run BPC will only run in one slot. Besides, BPO holders can generate BPCs to run multiple slots if they like. As for "switching" production true enough but the BPO holder can do Invention too so they can do everything you can and then some. I see you not have noticed what I have put in my post above: making copyes of a T2 BPO, beside requiring more skills and material, is slower than building the same number of items. So it is not possible to multiply the BPO production making copies, as that is slower than costant production. The only reason to make copyes is if you have problem accessing the needed materials.
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.17 17:31:00 - [116] Originally by: Omber Zombie Originally by: Humpalot You're kidding right? One multiple run BPC will only run in one slot. Besides, BPO holders can generate BPCs to run multiple slots if they like. 1. no 2. correct,it takes you 1hr and 10mins to make a bpc, and you can make 10 in one go 3. It takes longer to make a t2bpc from a bpo than it takes to build the item Quote: As for "switching" production true enough but the BPO holder can do Invention too so they can do everything you can and then some. fantastic, they have slightly more efficient single slot than one of your 10. Do you people ever build anything? I suppose if you are one guy with one BPO then this matters. Being in a builder corp we have many BPOs and in no way can we produce on all of them at the same time. So, we take unused BPOs and stuff them in for research and then copies. In this fashion we make use of more BPOs than we can actually build on at once anyway. When we get around to producing the given item again we generally have a nice stack of BPCs lying about and can tear off large production runs at once. Further, any BPO holder is free to do Invention as well. So, Invention guy can only do Invention. That has some benefits? Fine. But then BPO holder can churn out on the BPO and likewise join you doing Invention. Maybe just me but still not seeing how Invention guy has the advantage over the BPO holder.
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2007.03.17 17:42:00 - [117] Originally by: Humpalot Do you people ever build anything? I suppose if you are one guy with one BPO then this matters. Being in a builder corp we have many BPOs... Pator Tech School is a builder corp? awesome Seriously, do you have any idea of how t2 production works, or are you just assuming it's the same as t1? Quote: Further, any BPO holder is free to do Invention as well. So, Invention guy can only do Invention. That has some benefits? Fine. But then BPO holder can churn out on the BPO and likewise join you doing Invention. Maybe just me but still not seeing how Invention guy has the advantage over the BPO holder. you really did miss the point didn't you... I'll let your builder corp explain it to you. ---------------------- FTEK \| Production ~ Research ~ Sales ~ Election Fixing
Er4zor	Posted - 2007.03.17 17:50:00 - [118] To be honest i have never really understood why CCP dont just take the lottery away and keep the existing agent and RP system, just make it so that T2 BPO's are 'bought' with RP points from the particular agent you are working for. The very best BPO's ...or hardest to 'invent' if you like would be priced the highest in RP terms. At least in this way everyone can get a T2 BPO by putting in effort rather than hoping for luck. Also as more people get enough points to aquire certain BPO's the market price will drop.....which strikes me as a natural reflection of real life invention anyway. Also this way existing T2 BPO holders could just keep their BPO's and everyone else would know what effort was required to get a T2 BPO by doing research with agents. Seems easy to me. But then again what do i know.
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.17 18:00:00 - [119] Originally by: Omber Zombie Pator Tech School is a builder corp? awesome Yeah us nubs are awesome builders! Quote: Seriously, do you have any idea of how t2 production works, or are you just assuming it's the same as t1? Quite clear on T2 production. My point is we keep BPOs not currently in use working for us by spinning off BPCs or researching them (if necessary). As we run off piles of Antimatter Reactor Units or Crystalline Carbonide Armor Plates or Deflection Shield Emitter or Electrolytic Capacitor Units or EMP Pulse Generators and so on for T2 production we keep other BPOs cooking on BPCs. We simply cannot build on everything at once. Rather than let BPOs sit idle we make them work for us. So, generating BPCs is not really an inconvenience because it is slower than manufacturing the item as we can't manufacture on all items at once anyway. Quote: you really did miss the point didn't you... I'll let your builder corp explain it to you. I guess so...I'll be sure to ask my mates in Pator all about it.
Lorimer	Posted - 2007.03.17 18:14:00 - [120] I am concerned that the proposed changes will mean If you want to research you will have to mission wh*re in empire :( Personally it seems Invention is moving in the right direction but I am pro continuing the Lottery as well, that way any one who has put the 6 -12 months in to train science and grind agents has a choice 1) Stay in the lottery & hope for a small chance of a bpo 2) Cash in for datacores & invent / reverse engineer the items Part of the problem has been the scarity of T2 BPO's & the ability of clever players / aliances to control prices ...... if lottery drops continue anyone wanting to do that has to continue buying up the BPO's, this creates a isk sink for them and retains the chance of a someone relatively new getting lucky > selling a bpo > becoming rich L

Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.17 18:29:00 - [121] Edited by: Humpalot on 17/03/2007 18:26:08 Originally by: Venkul Mul I dubt that a corporation with so many t2 BPO to have some of them not working as all the production slots of the member of the corp are filled exist. Remember that a single player can have 3 alt, that is what, 18 jobs running at the same time? Someone with 18 T2 BPO probably as multiple accounts, so I dubt there is the need and opportunity to copy the BPO instead of building them. More opportunity than you might think. We'll run week long jobs producing scads of T2 Components (we like to have a stock handy). We try to control the production chain as much as possible (vertical integration) and there is a lot to do. We do a lot of T1 building too. We'll get order from various clients for all sorts of things all across the board. Bottom line is there is sufficient time to run off BPCs and in fact we like to have BPCs stockpiled. If we only had the one BPO and someone wanted 100 of that item it might take weeks to produce with only one slot running. With BPCs in hand we can fire up multiple production lines and deliver much faster. And while members have ALTs not all ALTs are builders. We're not THAT one-sided and like to have our missioners and PvPers and so on.
Hilabana Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.08.26 22:58:00 - [122] It looks like in the end the Mega corps are building all the T2 items and now doing all the T2 Inventions. So in the end the T2 BPO's that made the 5 to 10 run Ship BPC's are gone. Now in its place every one got what they wish cheap ? T2 items but only 1 run T2 ship BPC's by Invention. And now that no one needs the T1 BPC's i will end a long history of giving away T1 and T2 BPC's. May all that have supported me and help me give away Free BPC's have a long and happy time in eve and fly safe. as for my self i will collect the last items i need and start moving to a little system away from every one. it was verry fun giving awa so many free BPC's the verry last count was over 28000 BPC's given away in just 2 years i bet CCP will be happy now that im no longer making that many lol Thank you all

Valorem Amarr Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.08.26 23:17:00 - [123] Please do not bump old threads. Valorem forum rules \| CAOD Rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website



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