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Now is probably a better time then ever to remove attributes/remaps

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Lugia3 Tri-gun Escalating Entropy 1514	Posted - 2016.08.31 17:26:21 - [1] - Quote The attribute system is old, archaic, and restricts players for no good reason. Get rid of it and make accounts passively generate free skillpoints like they did in DUST. "CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 2201	Posted - 2016.08.31 17:47:00 - [2] - Quote If I could put your character in a cargo container and bury it - I would. Skilling now is a zillion times easier than it ever was. Put your feet up and enjoy the SP cake this game is providing you. Keep your mouth shut while it is full of said SP cake.
Wimzy Chent-Shi Unkindness Incorporated Who Dares Wins. 73	Posted - 2016.08.31 17:50:05 - [3] - Quote Lets get all moaning and crying over "consequences" and "decisions" in face of possible progress since no other arguments come up. Make a newbro foundation started @ here Let us help those newbros that can not PLEX themselves.
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 2203	Posted - 2016.08.31 18:05:52 - [4] - Quote Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote: Lets get all moaning and crying over "consequences" and "decisions" in face of possible progress since no other arguments come up. I'm pretty sure the OP is crying and moaning over the easiest skill acquisition system in MMO history isn't easy enough. Let's just focus on that. Little known fact: If you subscription is up to date you can gain skill points for your Eve character while pooping and reading the paper every single morning you are alive! Your computer doesn't even have to be turned on to do this! (I know right!!)
Captain Campion Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North 21	Posted - 2016.08.31 18:44:10 - [5] - Quote Massively agree - attributes are not fun.
Lugh Crow-Slave 2932	Posted - 2016.08.31 18:50:47 - [6] - Quote Serendipity Lost wrote: Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote: Lets get all moaning and crying over "consequences" and "decisions" in face of possible progress since no other arguments come up. I'm pretty sure the OP is crying and moaning over the easiest skill acquisition system in MMO history isn't easy enough. Let's just focus on that. Little known fact: If you subscription is up to date you can gain skill points for your Eve character while pooping and reading the paper every single morning you are alive! Your computer doesn't even have to be turned on to do this! (I know right!!) just because the current system is easy doesn't mean attributes are not a dumb system. in eve i would like to do what i want because i want to do it not because ccp decided things fit into one box or another pushing me into training what they see as "like skills" and punishing me for training against the grain. why should i be penalized more for wanting to train a shield boosting toon over some one who wants to train a shield mining toon? Citadel worm hole tax
Lugia3 Tri-gun Escalating Entropy 1515	Posted - 2016.08.31 19:47:27 - [7] - Quote Well it looks like we found that one guy who likes bad game design. "CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 812	Posted - 2016.08.31 23:24:54 - [8] - Quote Flat stats with +3's the first 9 months. Gets you a nice core char setup. You will be all over the first year. the flat stats cover this well imo. Doing pvp....run the 2 +3's for the skill in training to reduce costs. Remap to taste after that.
elitatwo Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance 1389	Posted - 2016.08.31 23:44:08 - [9] - Quote Yeay, more babies with a motorcycle license. What could go wrong?? Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike. We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 812	Posted - 2016.09.01 03:39:35 - [10] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Yeay, more babies with a motorcycle license. What could go wrong?? That I think they are thinking CCP will be generous here and give base attributes and a healthy dose of bonus points (for implants and to simulate remaps spacing) to base a new training speed on. I don't see that. 3 points to current base start stats and call it done. 2 point for attribute implants using lowest one. 1 to be nice. Reasons: Not all use +4's and 5's. Not going to be a freebie. CCP bothered to split up set implants to be lg/mg/hg....lg +2 the lowest common denominator. And people have whined that even +3's for pvp expensive. So we will say not even +3 common, so not getting this for free either. Attribute gone....not all min maxed on remaps. Base stats with implants works well enough imo...1 point to be nice here. Basically...yay for them the char is now flexible at +3 to base stat for training speed in new system. And...will have crap train times on the long 5's. This is where remaps make their money. Inb4 it won't be +3....rarely is ccp nice here. We got lucky on learning skill removal. I have been burned more than helped on CCP readjustments tbh. Part of me is hoping I am wrong here. I'd love uber training boosts. Why I don't see the generosity. Malcanis' law....it have me bang out some pita cap level 5's so much faster. I'd get more from it than lower sp chars would. Many older players would really. We see the 5's even with remaps and +4's that still suck ass time wise.
Luscius Uta Hek Squad What Squad 226	Posted - 2016.09.01 07:46:51 - [11] - Quote I would not have anything against attributes if they were arranged more sensibly, so that, for example, all the industrial skills, including those for flying ships such as freighters and transports, would share the same primary and secondary attributes. But those ship skills share attributes with combat ship skills that industry-oriented characters don't need! The most extreme case is training for a FAX - you need INT/MEM remap to train support skills, then you need to remap to PER/WIL to train Logistics and FAX skills and remap back to INT/MEM for Capital module and Triage skills. One way to fix this is to remove attributes entirely. Another way is to rearrange skill attributes by application, rather than skill group. Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 2206	Posted - 2016.09.01 15:39:56 - [12] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Serendipity Lost wrote: Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote: Lets get all moaning and crying over "consequences" and "decisions" in face of possible progress since no other arguments come up. I'm pretty sure the OP is crying and moaning over the easiest skill acquisition system in MMO history isn't easy enough. Let's just focus on that. Little known fact: If you subscription is up to date you can gain skill points for your Eve character while pooping and reading the paper every single morning you are alive! Your computer doesn't even have to be turned on to do this! (I know right!!) just because the current system is easy doesn't mean attributes are not a dumb system. in eve i would like to do what i want because i want to do it not because ccp decided things fit into one box or another pushing me into training what they see as "like skills" and punishing me for training against the grain. why should i be penalized more for wanting to train a shield boosting toon over some one who wants to train a shield mining toon? Let me turn a time tested Eve phrase to fit this thread... Just one more buff, one more buff and skill training will be OK..... just one more buff.
Lugh Crow-Slave 2956	Posted - 2016.09.01 16:11:59 - [13] - Quote Serendipity Lost wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Serendipity Lost wrote: Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote: Lets get all moaning and crying over "consequences" and "decisions" in face of possible progress since no other arguments come up. I'm pretty sure the OP is crying and moaning over the easiest skill acquisition system in MMO history isn't easy enough. Let's just focus on that. Little known fact: If you subscription is up to date you can gain skill points for your Eve character while pooping and reading the paper every single morning you are alive! Your computer doesn't even have to be turned on to do this! (I know right!!) just because the current system is easy doesn't mean attributes are not a dumb system. in eve i would like to do what i want because i want to do it not because ccp decided things fit into one box or another pushing me into training what they see as "like skills" and punishing me for training against the grain. why should i be penalized more for wanting to train a shield boosting toon over some one who wants to train a shield mining toon? Let me turn a time tested Eve phrase to fit this thread... Just one more buff, one more buff and skill training will be OK..... just one more buff. Removal of attributes is not "just one more buff" it's a rework of a very limiting mechanic. That doesn't really add anything to progression other than an arbitrary limit on what you can train along with what Tbh I would not so much remove attributes as I would remapping that way the learning imparts do have a place Also when arguing try to avoid fallacies like slippery slope Citadel worm hole tax
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 2206	Posted - 2016.09.01 16:52:07 - [14] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Serendipity Lost wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Serendipity Lost wrote: Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote: Lets get all moaning and crying over "consequences" and "decisions" in face of possible progress since no other arguments come up. I'm pretty sure the OP is crying and moaning over the easiest skill acquisition system in MMO history isn't easy enough. Let's just focus on that. Little known fact: If you subscription is up to date you can gain skill points for your Eve character while pooping and reading the paper every single morning you are alive! Your computer doesn't even have to be turned on to do this! (I know right!!) just because the current system is easy doesn't mean attributes are not a dumb system. in eve i would like to do what i want because i want to do it not because ccp decided things fit into one box or another pushing me into training what they see as "like skills" and punishing me for training against the grain. why should i be penalized more for wanting to train a shield boosting toon over some one who wants to train a shield mining toon? Let me turn a time tested Eve phrase to fit this thread... Just one more buff, one more buff and skill training will be OK..... just one more buff. Removal of attributes is not "just one more buff" it's a rework of a very limiting mechanic. That doesn't really add anything to progression other than an arbitrary limit on what you can train along with what Tbh I would not so much remove attributes as I would remapping that way the learning imparts do have a place Also when arguing try to avoid fallacies like slippery slope Fallacies... such as: "ccp decided things fit into one box or another pushing me into training what they see as "like skills" and punishing me for training against the grain." - They aren't pushing you anywhere. CCP decides these things because it's their game. Training 'against the grain' is a choice and has pros and cons. Training at less than the optimal isn't a punishment - you can perceive is as a punishment and get your feelings all ouchy over it, but calling it a punishment.... "why should i be penalized more for wanting to train a shield boosting toon over some one who wants to train a shield mining toon?" - arbitrarily declaring it should take the same amount of time to train a shield boosting toon as it does a shield mining toon... where is the fact or truth in that??? "You aquire SP while logged off and pooping".... oh wait, this one IS true
Rivr Luzade Kenshin. DARKNESS. 2713	Posted - 2016.09.01 16:54:32 - [15] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: in eve i would like to do what i want because i want to do it not because ccp decided things fit into one box or another pushing me into training what they see as "like skills" and punishing me for training against the grain. And the Attributes system limits you how exactly? I have not remapped my specs since early 2012 and have been training (Leadership skills included) with full Perc/some Mem. I have yet to feel limited or hampered in the ways I play this game. On the other hand, the attributes give me the opportunity to rise above my normal skill points accumulation in specific circumstances and train things faster on chars that are meant for a specific purpose. You cannot have that in a system without attributes or remaps unless you infuse cash into the system in addition to your subscription. I prefer the former rather than the latter system. UI Improvement Collective My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Lugh Crow-Slave 2956	Posted - 2016.09.01 17:12:48 - [16] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: in eve i would like to do what i want because i want to do it not because ccp decided things fit into one box or another pushing me into training what they see as "like skills" and punishing me for training against the grain. And the Attributes system limits you how exactly? I have not remapped my specs since early 2012 and have been training (Leadership skills included) with full Perc/some Mem with a partial set of +3s (Admittedly, I used +4s before I went into null sec because I could and it was actually beneficial). I have yet to feel limited or hampered in the ways I play this game. On the contrary, the attributes give me the opportunity to rise above my normal skill points accumulation in specific circumstances and train things faster on chars that are meant for a specific purpose. You cannot have that in a system without attributes or remaps unless you infuse cash into the system in addition to your subscription. I prefer the former rather than the latter system. didn't say limit i said push Citadel worm hole tax
Gregorius Goldstein Ze One Man Show 72	Posted - 2016.09.01 17:15:23 - [17] - Quote EVE's attribute is a bit strange, but strange isn't bad per se. I am not sure yet if I like it or not. But I am sure making it like any generic MMO would be a mistake for sure.
Lugh Crow-Slave 2956	Posted - 2016.09.01 17:22:31 - [18] - Quote Serendipity Lost wrote: "ccp decided things fit into one box or another pushing me into training what they see as "like skills" and punishing me for training against the grain." - They aren't pushing you anywhere. CCP decides these things because it's their game. Training 'against the grain' is a choice and has pros and cons. Training at less than the optimal isn't a punishment - you can perceive is as a punishment and get your feelings all ouchy over it, but calling it a punishment.... except it is a punishment "the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense." buy going off attribute i get a penalty to how fast i gain sp Quote: "why should i be penalized more for wanting to train a shield boosting toon over some one who wants to train a shield mining toon?" - arbitrarily declaring it should take the same amount of time to train a shield boosting toon as it does a shield mining toon... where is the fact or truth in that??? i never said it should take as much time but why should i gain sp slower just because supporting a fleet interests me over mining. Citadel worm hole tax
Lugh Crow-Slave 2959	Posted - 2016.09.01 19:05:33 - [19] - Quote Gregorius Goldstein wrote: EVE's attribute system is a bit strange, but strange isn't bad per se. I am not sure yet if I like it or not. But I am sure making it like any generic MMO would be a mistake. good thing using attributes to affect skills in some way is not a generic mmo trope Citadel worm hole tax
elitatwo Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance 1390	Posted - 2016.09.01 23:37:43 - [20] - Quote Wait, so once upon a time this unknown (at the time) company call CCP thought they make a spaceship online game that could keep you busy for more than a decade and you had to decide what you wanted to do, so planning ahead a little was a good idea. Now we are supposed to log on and fly all titans at once and yolo some null-thingy for CNN news on day 0.3?? Must be super difficult to comprehend level 1-5 zee end. Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike. We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
Gregorius Goldstein Ze One Man Show 139	Posted - 2016.09.02 08:08:15 - [21] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Gregorius Goldstein wrote: EVE's attribute system is a bit strange, but strange isn't bad per se. I am not sure yet if I like it or not. But I am sure making it like any generic MMO would be a mistake. good thing using attributes to affect skills in some way is not a generic mmo trope I am quite new so let me ask: Attributes don't affect my acutal skills but only the time needed to learn them, right?
Lugh Crow-Slave 2965	Posted - 2016.09.02 10:18:54 - [22] - Quote Gregorius Goldstein wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Gregorius Goldstein wrote: EVE's attribute system is a bit strange, but strange isn't bad per se. I am not sure yet if I like it or not. But I am sure making it like any generic MMO would be a mistake. good thing using attributes to affect skills in some way is not a generic mmo trope I am quite new so let me ask: Attributes don't affect my acutal skills but only the time needed to learn them, right? correct. but it is not the first game where high str will help me learn sword skills faster or high int help me learn more powerful magics Citadel worm hole tax
Lugh Crow-Slave 2965	Posted - 2016.09.02 10:20:52 - [23] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Wait, so once upon a time this unknown (at the time) company call CCP thought they make a spaceship online game that could keep you busy for more than a decade and you had to decide what you wanted to do, so planning ahead a little was a good idea. Now we are supposed to log on and fly all titans at once and yolo some null-thingy for CNN news on day 0.3?? Must be super difficult to comprehend level 1-5 zee end. how does not wanting to be punished for wanting to train a certain combination = insta titans? even with perfect training now you are not going to have max skills in less than two decades not that it matters anymore since people already have max skills thanks to injectors Citadel worm hole tax
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 2210	Posted - 2016.09.02 11:09:16 - [24] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: elitatwo wrote: Wait, so once upon a time this unknown (at the time) company call CCP thought they make a spaceship online game that could keep you busy for more than a decade and you had to decide what you wanted to do, so planning ahead a little was a good idea. Now we are supposed to log on and fly all titans at once and yolo some null-thingy for CNN news on day 0.3?? Must be super difficult to comprehend level 1-5 zee end. how does not wanting to be punished for wanting to train a certain combination = insta titans? even with perfect training now you are not going to have max skills in less than two decades not that it matters anymore since people already have max skills thanks to injectors That's a good point. CCP has provided you with a way to totally bypass the whole thing.... AND YOU'RE STILL BITCHING ABOUT IT?????? Just one more buff and skilling will be OK. Just one more buff.
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 971	Posted - 2016.09.02 12:31:04 - [25] - Quote Serendipity Lost wrote: If I could put your character in a cargo container and bury it - I would. Skilling now is a zillion times easier than it ever was. Put your feet up and enjoy the SP cake this game is providing you. Keep your mouth shut while it is full of said SP cake. What was in times past is not relevant to what is today. Because it is better than it was does that mean that it cannot or should not be improved? Attributes and how and when to change them has been and still is one of the biggest areas of confusion for the new to EvE players that I come into contact with for this reason alone removing them would be an excellent idea. And I remind everyone that CCP has stated that attributes will be going away, it is not a matter of IF it is a matter of when and what will they be replaced with and in that way any and all discussion on attributes and how to replace them is valid, even if you think the idea is terrible.
Valacus Streets of Fire 138	Posted - 2016.09.02 15:44:32 - [26] - Quote "But but but... muh consequences!" They should have dumped attributes when they dumped the attribute enhancing skills, which were just compounding the original problem. I'm all for finally getting that stupid system out of the game.
Bubba Freedom The Scope Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2016.09.03 10:04:13 - [27] - Quote I've played in both eras of skill training we've had so far. Ths current system is better than the old one, which is actually relatively simple compared to some I've seen. Yes the system is a pain, however between skill injectors and remaps, if you manage them properly, it's not all that bad of a system. Not to the point personally that it would be worth rewriting half the game.
Lugh Crow-Slave 2981	Posted - 2016.09.03 13:19:29 - [28] - Quote Bubba Freedom wrote: I've played in both eras of skill training we've had so far. Ths current system is better than the old one, which is actually relatively simple compared to some I've seen. Yes the system is a pain, however between skill injectors and remaps, if you manage them properly, it's not all that bad of a system. Not to the point personally that it would be worth rewriting half the game. how would setting all attributes to one number require rewriting half the game? Citadel worm hole tax
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 2219	Posted - 2016.09.06 10:45:37 - [29] - Quote Gregorius Goldstein wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Gregorius Goldstein wrote: EVE's attribute system is a bit strange, but strange isn't bad per se. I am not sure yet if I like it or not. But I am sure making it like any generic MMO would be a mistake. good thing using attributes to affect skills in some way is not a generic mmo trope I am quite new so let me ask: Attributes don't affect my acutal skills but only the time needed to learn them, right? You are correct in your understanding. This whole argument is based on the lack of patience. Children these days are conditioned for immediate reward and can't get their arms around the satisfaction of completing long term goals. They derive no pleasure from earning, just attaining. This is an example of the fall of modern society. Donnachadh is a perfect example "What was in times past is not relevant to what is today." This is precisely the line of thinking that shackles us to a rise and fall species. The further we rise, the more convenient it is to forget. We are doomed as a society and CCP is a pawn forced to adjust a rich and beautiful game to the falling standards and whims of a self indulgent player base. If you take anything from this thread - it's learn how to fish - it may save your life.
Lugh Crow-Slave 3014	Posted - 2016.09.06 11:08:27 - [30] - Quote Serendipity Lost wrote: Gregorius Goldstein wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Gregorius Goldstein wrote: EVE's attribute system is a bit strange, but strange isn't bad per se. I am not sure yet if I like it or not. But I am sure making it like any generic MMO would be a mistake. good thing using attributes to affect skills in some way is not a generic mmo trope I am quite new so let me ask: Attributes don't affect my acutal skills but only the time needed to learn them, right? You are correct in your understanding. This whole argument is based on the lack of patience. Children these days are conditioned for immediate reward and can't get their arms around the satisfaction of completing long term goals. They derive no pleasure from earning, just attaining. This is an example of the fall of modern society. Donnachadh is a perfect example "What was in times past is not relevant to what is today." This is precisely the line of thinking that shackles us to a rise and fall species. The further we rise, the more convenient it is to forget. We are doomed as a society and CCP is a pawn forced to adjust a rich and beautiful game to the falling standards and whims of a self indulgent player base. If you take anything from this thread - it's learn how to fish - it may save your life. Yet my argument had nothing to do with patience at all. It was built around not being punished for wanting to fill a particular role in eve by losing sp Citadel worm hole tax
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 2219	Posted - 2016.09.06 12:17:38 - [31] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Serendipity Lost wrote: Gregorius Goldstein wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Gregorius Goldstein wrote: EVE's attribute system is a bit strange, but strange isn't bad per se. I am not sure yet if I like it or not. But I am sure making it like any generic MMO would be a mistake. good thing using attributes to affect skills in some way is not a generic mmo trope I am quite new so let me ask: Attributes don't affect my acutal skills but only the time needed to learn them, right? You are correct in your understanding. This whole argument is based on the lack of patience. Children these days are conditioned for immediate reward and can't get their arms around the satisfaction of completing long term goals. They derive no pleasure from earning, just attaining. This is an example of the fall of modern society. Donnachadh is a perfect example "What was in times past is not relevant to what is today." This is precisely the line of thinking that shackles us to a rise and fall species. The further we rise, the more convenient it is to forget. We are doomed as a society and CCP is a pawn forced to adjust a rich and beautiful game to the falling standards and whims of a self indulgent player base. If you take anything from this thread - it's learn how to fish - it may save your life. Being asked to choose isn't a punishment. Get over it. You're not losing SP you're just not acquiring them at the max rate. Get over it.
Lugh Crow-Slave 3014	Posted - 2016.09.06 12:24:24 - [32] - Quote Go take economics if you are not making something at the max rate you are losing what you are not making. And again I get punished for choosing to train into a command ship over training to be a miner what is the justification in that? Citadel worm hole tax
elitatwo Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance 1402	Posted - 2016.09.06 12:56:33 - [33] - Quote Before I go and kill myself so I can come back from the beyond and do all kinds of funny stuffs, why not have everyone just not train at all and we play: EVE Tournament Online from this day on instead? Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike. We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
Lugh Crow-Slave 3055	Posted - 2016.09.09 10:34:34 - [34] - Quote why do you think this would mean faster training? it could very well be that they chose to put the numbers at the base values Citadel worm hole tax
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3510	Posted - 2016.09.09 15:13:52 - [35] - Quote I like attributes or at least the concept of character customisation beyond the aesthetics. I'm aware it can be a pita for some gameplay. I think separating them from training speed will be a good thing, but I'd rather not discard them all together. It might to interesting to overhaul implants and attributes entirely. Thinking of a system more like other games where attributes improve stats and then implants improve attributes and/or stats. E.g mock up: Perception improves: weapon, drone and e-war optimal/falloff/missile velocity, targeting range and probe str. Agility improves: ship and drone mobility, scan res, weapon tracking and missile precision, probe speed. Will power improves: capacitor, reduces overheat damage, improves sensor str and e-war resist. Intelligence improves: e-war str, industry, research, hacking and mining. Charisma improves: tax rates, lp payouts, npc interaction. Strength improves: damage and tank. This approach kinda penalises people for partaking in more than one playstyle however and encourages min/maxing. This can be mitigated however with diminishing returns on attributes, stacking penalties on implants and by assigning attributes to jump clones rather than characters. Then allow remaps per year on your jump clones. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 15599	Posted - 2016.09.09 17:56:14 - [36] - Quote Stop this commie talk about the same brain for everyone. Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him. GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
Khan Wrenth Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation 681	Posted - 2016.09.10 01:43:42 - [37] - Quote This is one of those topics that comes up frequently because it's a topic both sides are pretty passionate about. Personally, I'm on the side of "keep attributes and implants the way they are", but I also think it's a lost cause. There have been two major developments in the recent past that bypassed learning attributes. "Dailies", which were later removed. And skill injectors, which seem to be a permanent part of the game. Both allow players to simply get skillpoints to apply to any skill without penalty, without regard for the skill's attributes or the player's current attribute map. For a personal example, when dailies were temporarily introduced, I certainly participated. By the end of the trial period, I had 300,000 skillpoints (if memory serves correctly. 10,000 a day x 30 days right?). As I had just started my command ships/combat booster training, I held onto the skillpionts to apply to the only part of the skill plan that was sub-optimal - the actual command ship training. Had the dailies been kept in-game, I'm sure most people would have done precisely the same thing; skill train the most optimal/highest sp per hour skills, use the free SP generated to chip away and slowly train the sub-optimal. In a way, skill injectors are much the same (though I have not ever bought one). I believe that right now, the SP you get per isk is a lot less than paying a plex and skilling at the normal rate. Regardless, doesn't it make sense to apply those SP to skills you want to or need to train, but your attributes are better suited to other things that are still very important to your skillplan? Sure, you can use an injector to knock some time off of a current skill you're already optimized to train, but it's not nearly as efficient, and I think the majority of injector users would rather the former than the latter. Preferences aside, the fact that you can bypass attributes at all seems like a signal from CCP that they would rather be rid of them. I've heard all the arguments in favor of keeping attributes, and I've made plenty myself. But I think their removal is inevitable. I think the only question is really, "what comes next?" I think that major nullsec powers have CCP's ear, and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing either. In many ways null is the most important part of this game. But they often advocate for removal of attribute implants because they don't get to use them to the same extent that high-seccers and low-seccers do. I feel that is good balance, nullsec has the big wealth of the EvE universe, and highsec people have an easier time grinding skills. If you remove implants as part of the attribute equation, you essentially signal that you want all the advantages to be in nullsec. I feel that each section of security territory should have advantages and disadvantages, and upsetting that ecosystem to favor nullsec too much is not a good thing. So, if attributes are removed and/or flattened, I hope they still keep implants for those willing to use them. Other people have advocated for boosters or accelerators instead, so they can still use them when they PvP in dangerous zones. That smacks of "I want to have my cake and eat it too, without gaining weight to boot!". But removal of learning implants would have major repercussions throughout the EvE economy, since they're a major LP store item and a frequent mission reward item. Any attempt to remove them will, by necessity, include a major overhaul of LP stores, risk balancing, skill learning rebalance, etc. Which is why I think it's a long-term goal of CCP's, but probably won't be soon since they have much on their plate already. Although I think we were all surprised by the recent "alpha clones" announcement, I wouldn't imagine another big thing coming from CCP until the ship balance - including and especially the tech-3 cruiser lineup, has been rebalanced. Once that major undertaking is finished, I'd expect them to revisit skills, attributes, and training speed. Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
FT Diomedes The Graduates 2679	Posted - 2016.09.10 01:56:06 - [38] - Quote Attributes and attribute implants should have been removed when they finally removed the stupid learning skills. CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 824	Posted - 2016.09.10 02:45:50 - [39] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Bubba Freedom wrote: I've played in both eras of skill training we've had so far. Ths current system is better than the old one, which is actually relatively simple compared to some I've seen. Yes the system is a pain, however between skill injectors and remaps, if you manage them properly, it's not all that bad of a system. Not to the point personally that it would be worth rewriting half the game. how would setting all attributes to one number require rewriting half the game? Set implants would need a rebalance. Some people buy these for the +4 or +3 aspects for the training. Example: With several changes the sensor strength effect of say talons has been lessened over the years for me. CCP removed unprobable (left hard to probe in, more on that later). Removed sig bloom of fury ammo. Introduced sensor skills, Realigned SBA and ECCM into Sig amp and SEBO. Basically if going for hard to probe one no longer needs HG's. Or even MG's. In my case I run sensor HG's for the training speed at this point. If caught and podded, which would be funny as the talon clone has lived for years...and in 0.0 for a time, and no attributes I'd have no need to buy HG's really. Had my talons, looking at jackals for some minmatar ideas. I do that they will be HG's as well. For that +4. Clones they go in obviously designed to not die. I try to hide in plain site as it were lol. Crystals and such fall here. LG or MG as I pyfa them are decent enough for some strong tanks at cheaper price. HG's usually the realm of richer players making a max train speed pve clone. No attributes....what will CCP do to give us to fill in that void. Its a paid for feature...take something away usually means give something back. Stronger crystals, would we get them? My talons not needing even SEBO anymore for hard to probe? Will snakes be un-nerfed? As I recall snakes loooong ago, iirc what bitters told me, were faster and had speed bonus lowered for balance reasons. And will ccp adjust LP costs, the source of these by and large? CCP hasn't even adjusted these in light of the exploration gold rush as it were. The fact more than half the lp items in this game are useless seems to be that subtle clue they are missing change is needed. Useless in that you can get pith b if not A cheaper for some say shield mods. Who in their right mind would buy CN shield items when pith does it better, and cheaper.
Etheric Waradian Dwarf Associates 0	Posted - 2016.09.10 10:30:50 - [40] - Quote I fail to understand how GÇ£get rid of attributes and remapsGÇ¥ is useful. If you don't like remaps, just remap once and for all to have equal attributes, you'll get exactly the same effect, without imposing your view on all other players.

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