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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
7029
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Posted - 2016.09.02 15:05:49 -
[1] - Quote
After the big announcement of Clone States, we have a quick follow-up for you.
But before you read the blog, we would like to thank you for the overwhelmingly constructive feedback we have received. Seeing you discussing the consequences, pointing to potential issues, already making plans ... that is wonderful and proves again that the EVE community is the best! [
Please check out the dev blog Clone States GÇô Post Announcement Follow-up!
CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer - Volunteer Manager
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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
2972
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Posted - 2016.09.02 15:16:10 -
[2] - Quote
I am glad you aren't pulling the trigger on the red safety lock yet. I originally promoted this idea but have come to the conclusion that red gameplay is one of the unique features of EVE and new players should be allowed to explore it.
A limit on simultaneous alpha clone logins would be good enough. I hope you can manage that.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
1819
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Posted - 2016.09.02 15:23:20 -
[3] - Quote
Zappity wrote:A limit on simultaneous alpha clone logins would be good enough. I hope you can manage that.
You cannot control it. Not even with the player`s IP adress... Not even with the MAC adress of your network card...
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Ripard Teg
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
1312
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Posted - 2016.09.02 15:24:02 -
[4] - Quote
Glad to hear that suicide ganking is high up on your concerns list.
Just to be clear, my particular concern in this area is veteran players using their Alpha clones to suicide gank true new players also using Alpha clones. You don't need good character skills to do this, just good player skills, which veteran players will have in abundance. Other than ethics, I can't see much reason why every veteran player wouldn't have at least one Alpha clone set aside for this purpose.
As to not using Alpha clones for more serious ganking, CODE has been solving this problem for years now the same way most EVE alliances solve their problems: greater numbers. Look at their freighter kills and you'll find dozens and dozens of people using T1 fits.
For the morons in the room: I am not against suicide ganking. I've participated in it myself. My concern is the game's ecosystem, and that we'll see far more suicide gankers once the barriers to entry are removed with disposable, free Alpha clones.
So please continue to keep it in mind, thanks!
aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2487
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Posted - 2016.09.02 15:39:49 -
[5] - Quote
I'm glad to hear that the simultaneous alpha clone login problem is being considered. I suspected that it was actually a technical issue, given that the issue wasn't immediately stricken down in the initial blog. Here's to hoping you can clear that hurdle before release; it's very, very important to restrict. Otherwise, I don't see any significant issues with the proposal currently. Thanks for the followup!
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3920
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Posted - 2016.09.02 15:43:40 -
[6] - Quote
Here is a possible middle ground on the ganking/safety setting thing:
If your alpha clone has its security status drops too far, you cannot set the safety to red.
This allows new players to try out ganking. But they cannot make a career out of it without large time or ISK expenditures to keep their security status up, or getting a subscription.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
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Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
654
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Posted - 2016.09.02 15:49:43 -
[7] - Quote
One concern I have about that write-up on Alpha clones and suicide ganking is that it only goes over freighter ganking, and does so in a very limited aspect.
For one, if Alpha clones can use Meta mods, that's going to up their damage by a fair amount. Based on the comment regarding their use of the Gnosis (which seems to imply that they can use something if the skills allow it), there's no reason to assume that Alpha gankers won't be using meta-fit ships instead of purely T1 / Meta-0 mods.
Secondly, it only addresses freighter ganking. There are many, many more ships in EVE than just freighters. It may take 50+ low-skill ships to gank a freighter, but it would only take 3-5 to gank something much smaller. These may not be the best gankers around, but they'll still be good gankers, especially as there would no longer be the 1+ billion ISK cost to keeping a dedicated account active.
Even CODE talk about how a modern-day ganking char, after the most recent starter skills update, takes only 15 minutes to train (Gallente Destroyer I), and the Alpha chars will be significantly better than than that. No, they won't be as good as a dedicated Omega ganker, but when the price of admission is free, you end up with many more people joining the party.
While I'm not going to advocate either way towards Alpha clones being able or unable to gank, I do caution that the Reddit post on freighter ganking is only telling a single story from the larger narrative.
For the Newbies: The 8 Golden Rules - The Magic 14 Skills - Finding the Right Corp - EVE University Wiki
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Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
945
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Posted - 2016.09.02 15:51:17 -
[8] - Quote
Any update on what will happen to buddy invites? :-)
Free 3rd party service
21 day trial, you keep the whole PLEX
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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
2973
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Posted - 2016.09.02 15:52:43 -
[9] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote:Glad to hear that suicide ganking is high up on your concerns list.
Just to be clear, my particular concern in this area is veteran players using their Alpha clones to suicide gank true new players also using either Alpha or Omega clones. You don't need good character skills to do this, just good player skills, which veteran players will have in abundance. Other than ethics, I can't see much reason why every veteran player wouldn't have at least one Alpha clone set aside for this purpose.
As to not using Alpha clones for more serious ganking, CODE has been solving this problem for years now the same way most EVE alliances solve their problems: greater numbers. Look at their freighter kills and you'll find dozens and dozens of people using T1 fits.
For the morons in the room: I am not against suicide ganking. I've participated in it myself. My concern is the game's ecosystem, and that we'll see far more suicide gankers once the barriers to entry are removed with disposable, free Alpha clones.
So please continue to keep it in mind, thanks! I don't follow this logic. As a current player, if I want to suicide gank I am going to maximise the effect by using an omega character. I think the real danger here is current players multiboxing alphas to great effect.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Grookshank
Jump Drive Appreciation Society
123
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Posted - 2016.09.02 15:54:07 -
[10] - Quote
That was a big amount of nothing said :(
Quote: Probably the clearest point to emerge so far has been a request to limit simultaneous log on for Alphas. The concern here is obviously justified as swarms of free alts could potentially have any number of negative effects on the game. That said, thereGÇÖs significant complexity here, especially on the technical side. We are exploring options to address this and also consulting our security and customer support team, as most of the negative behavior would depend on multi-plexing or automation, both of which are big no-no's. But, when you guys say you will find ways to break it we believe you, so, weGÇÖre looking at our options and will update you when we settle on an approach. This is not something you need to think about and it is not only about a few aspects of the game. You need to limit it like the trials. You already know how and why, since you are doing it with trial accounts; just implement it.
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Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere Coalition of the Unfortunate
1699
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Posted - 2016.09.02 15:58:14 -
[11] - Quote
Good to see the answers keep coming, or at least acknowledgement of concerns.
My question is can we also use this release to dispose of the neural remap "feature" / "gameplay":
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/50mipa/ccplz_kill_off_attribute_remaps_with_the_new/ |
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore
14610
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Posted - 2016.09.02 16:05:17 -
[12] - Quote
From this blog Quote:We are exploring options to address this and also consulting our security and customer support team, as most of the negative behavior would depend on multi-plexing or automation, both of which are big no-no's.
This is naive in the extreme. The possible negative behavior we are warning about requires no such thing. Or does CCP not realize that Drone Assist is still a feature of their game?
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2652
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Posted - 2016.09.02 16:06:21 -
[13] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote:Just to be clear, my particular concern in this area is veteran players using their Alpha clones to suicide gank true new players also using either Alpha or Omega clones. You don't need good character skills to do this, just good player skills, which veteran players will have in abundance. Other than ethics, I can't see much reason why every veteran player wouldn't have at least one Alpha clone set aside for this purpose. Why wouldn't these veteran players just use their Omega clones to gank new players? Or a trial account? Or an second Omega account paid for by skill extraction?
Unlimited ganking accounts (and PI, mining, industry and other activities that don't require ongoing training) have been effectively free since skill extraction was introduced earlier this year (actually with the current market you get paid to run those ganking alts). Trial accounts have been able to fly a Catalyst in 8 minutes ever since the starting SP was buffed last year yet there is no evidence that the ganking of new or veteran players has increased at all because of these changes even if you thought that was a bad thing. I don't see why you think a significant number of veterans are going to start gimped Alpha accounts to play the game as highsec criminals when they can already do that now.
Ripard Teg wrote:As to not using Alpha clones for more serious ganking, CODE has been solving this problem for years now the same way most EVE alliances solve their problems: greater numbers. Look at their freighter kills and you'll find dozens and dozens of people using T1 fits. Getting more players to engage in the intended criminal gameplay that CCP coded into the game on purpose can only be considered a good thing, especially if they are true new/returning players who are grouping up to make their mark on the universe and form the social bonds that CCP says keep people playing the game. I do agree though that veteran players multiboxing dozens of alt accounts is potentially problematic, not only for highsec ganking, but for many aspects of the game including other forms of PvP (pocket logis, Griffins), PI/manufacturing, information gathering and especially mining. CCP will have to tread carefully to not let multiboxing alpha accounts be worth the trouble to existing veteran players.
But as to highsec ganking, let new players experience all the game has to offer, including playing as a highsec criminal. If ganking really does take off for some reason and highsec denizens can't be safe, CCP can always nerf ganking yet again, or better yet, spend some development time on completely revamping how the highsec crime, war and contraband systems work.
Why Do They Gank?
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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
2973
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Posted - 2016.09.02 16:09:28 -
[14] - Quote
Yes please. Replace learning implants with boosters that have racial and strength flavours, e.g. "Strong Gallente Cerebral Accelerator" which boosts training speed for a week or two. It fits with the alpha racial lock and we know that the code is already in place from last year's event.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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ArmyOfMe
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
611
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Posted - 2016.09.02 16:17:47 -
[15] - Quote
First page again \o/
Oh, and great stuff. I do hope this will help to rejuvenate the playerbase. Wish it had happend sooner, but i still love this idea.
ArmyOfMe wrote:
1) If you get bumped then that webber wont do anything.
baltec1 wrote:
We use the exact same tactic for titans and they enter warp instantly.
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Katrina Bekers
Rim Collection RC ChaosTheory.
263
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Posted - 2016.09.02 16:38:09 -
[16] - Quote
Think about this wisely. Many eyes began staring back at EVE with this announcement...
<< THE RABBLE BRIGADE >>
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Dibble Dabble
Capital Assets Inc
72
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Posted - 2016.09.02 16:43:08 -
[17] - Quote
My corp mates and I quit eve some years ago. This was due to low sp Suicide Alts making life more difficult and the big changes to industry which was the real killer.
However the proposed free accounts have given us some ideas. We probably have several trillion ISK stashed away on our mothballed accounts which can be harvested, invested etc,
We also have some ideas for almost free ***** and giggles fun at the expense of established players / alliances that made life difficult in the past, indeed that would be most of the alliances, Whilst we are few in number we can not take down a freighter we can sure take down the smaller stuff.
With our ISK and the free accounts I suspect we wont be only people to return. T1 Frigs / Cruisers can have a lot of fun in a target rich environment such as empire. We can have as many Alpha accounts as we want, we can train them for next to nothing and our mains can scoop the loot. Recycle them whilst kill rights expire as needed.
Freighters will be safe from us, too much like hard work and we are few in number but if your in empire and your in an alliance we dont like, and that would be most of them, then you best not be on Auto Pilot,
Oh and you bumpers on the gates in NPC Corps, your first, we really dont like you
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Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
198
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Posted - 2016.09.02 16:45:11 -
[18] - Quote
HandelsPharmi wrote:Zappity wrote:A limit on simultaneous alpha clone logins would be good enough. I hope you can manage that. You cannot control it. Not even with the player`s IP adress... Not even with the MAC adress of your network card... well, why do you have to control it technically? Maybe you just have to give your creditcard datas (without actual using it) to play Alpha. Or it is bound to your steam account. So you know who ownes the Alpha and so you can prevent him from logging in multiple accounts. You can't totally prevent it but you can make it a lot of hassle to do so. |
Solecist Project
32819
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Posted - 2016.09.02 16:45:32 -
[19] - Quote
So, will they be able to post outside of NCQA or not?
That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Top Belt for Fun
4431
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Posted - 2016.09.02 16:49:21 -
[20] - Quote
I didn't see any reference to the fact that Eve is beginning to be marketed as free to play in the media. It's likely to be marketed the same way on Steam. How do we reconcile the fact that people are going to come in expecting free to play and find that Eve literally supports pay to win "golden ammo" (Scorch, Null, Barrage, etc). How do we reconcile the fact that paying players will do over 2x the DPS in the same ship as alpha players? How do we prevent this from smacking of pay to win, and give them a reasonable enough Eve experience to get them hooked?
-Liang
I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
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Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
11
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Posted - 2016.09.02 17:11:18 -
[21] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I didn't see any reference to the fact that Eve is beginning to be marketed as free to play in the media. It's likely to be marketed the same way on Steam. How do we reconcile the fact that people are going to come in expecting free to play and find that Eve literally supports pay to win "golden ammo" (Scorch, Null, Barrage, etc). How do we reconcile the fact that paying players will do over 2x the DPS in the same ship as alpha players? How do we prevent this from smacking of pay to win, and give them a reasonable enough Eve experience to get them hooked?
-Liang To have the "golden ammo" effect the game has to start out free i think that ship sailed 13 years ago, same BS different thread. |
Rain6637
NulzSec
34165
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Posted - 2016.09.02 17:27:57 -
[22] - Quote
now I won't get arrested for flying with an expired pilot's license
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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Saoirse Flowerchild
last rose of summer
1
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Posted - 2016.09.02 17:31:18 -
[23] - Quote
Please do not limit safety to green/yellow.
quoted from the official EVE New Player FAQ: http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/communityassets/pdf/EVE-Online-New-Pilot-FAQ.pdf
Quote:"7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? "No; There are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided."
Quote:"pilots are willing to accept the expense of losing their ship to CONCORD and having their security status lowered for their crimes. So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time."
Quote:"...the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)". - CCP Solomon
EVE is a PVP game, a game about non-consensual pvp even. If you limit alpha clones to green/yellow you take away what is (for me) one of the corner stones of EVE's Spirit.
If you would just give alpha clones the same limitations as you give current trial accounts (eg no trial instance running on the same pc which runs a paid instance + the skill limits) it would solve all of the issues that people have with alphas at the moment.
If you don't want to do that, limiting them to maybe one or two extra accounts per PC is (in my opinion) still a much better option than taking away one of the fundamental freedoms of EVE.
That some of the CSM and devs even consider limiting the safety settings makes me feel really uneasy. |
Velores Prokhozai
WARP Mechanics Fidelas Constans
5
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Posted - 2016.09.02 17:49:53 -
[24] - Quote
And we still have not solid answer even about multiboxing problem, wich is on first place, along with dozens other less critical problems. I am worried a lot. |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2802
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Posted - 2016.09.02 17:50:34 -
[25] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:From this blog Quote:We are exploring options to address this and also consulting our security and customer support team, as most of the negative behavior would depend on multi-plexing or automation, both of which are big no-no's. This is naive in the extreme (Im sorry to sound harsh, but that whole blog entry is naive, and I'm going to end up book marking it like I did this one). The possible negative behavior we are warning about requires no such thing. Or does CCP not realize that Drone Assist is still a feature of their game? Have to second this, the wording sounds like getting the point to 99% but still missing it. The effective possibility to multi-box (which is legal in general) an account + only one alpha will make EvE a completely different game, because every Omega would use an Alpha alt to web, scout, probe, provide drones, add. DPS, ewar, etc. I personally would not undock anymore without one of my 100 alts stored ready to use in all relevant systems.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Top Belt for Fun
4431
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Posted - 2016.09.02 18:01:37 -
[26] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote: To have the "golden ammo" effect the game has to start out free i think that ship sailed 13 years ago, same BS different thread.
The game is starting out free to new players.
-Liang
I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
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Harry Hero
Dogz Nutz The Volition Cult
0
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Posted - 2016.09.02 18:06:15 -
[27] - Quote
Remove attribute mapping please.
Let the choice be what I want to train now, not what I think I want for the next 12 months.
You know it makes sense.
Simple set all attributes to 27, 23 25 or whatever, just remove the bad choices.
Implants.... save that for another day and another discussion. |
VicturusTeSaluto
Metafarmers
1
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Posted - 2016.09.02 18:18:02 -
[28] - Quote
Upon recently returning I found the game to be depressingly empty, and while CCP really needs to do something to address the stagnation I fear this will not be a positive move.
The last time that CCP made a major push focusing on noobs in frigs(FW) was the beginning of the end for EVE, this could be the death knell.
FW focused on noobs in frigs and lead to everyone I knew, allies, enemies, acquaintances etc leaving the game within a short period of time.
Low sec used to thrive with just about everything. Ratters, miners, traders, industrialists, mission runners, explorers, pirates, anti-pies, mercs etc... As soon as they turned those regions into zones for noobs in frigs all of the ratters, miners, industrialists, mission runners, antipies, and generally non-combat oriented types deserted due to the startling appearance of fleets in local(give them 1 or 2 red flashy and they hardly notice, a constant fleet of noobs in frigs and they freak), node lag etc. Not long after that all the pirates left because noobs in frigs are not interesting or profitable targets for end-game piracy when you were used to going after marauders, faction bs, exhumers, capitals etc... Now we are at the point where a day-long low sec roam, even on the weekend is not likely to produce anything good because low sec was depopulated for good by FW.
So we are back at the point of adding more content geared solely towards noobs in frigs. So will we have massive t1 frig or cruiser fleets going around scaring off actual players just by being a general eyesore and/or causing node lag? Seems pretty likely to me! |
Andre Vauban
Aideron Robotics
460
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Posted - 2016.09.02 18:19:17 -
[29] - Quote
HandelsPharmi wrote:Zappity wrote:A limit on simultaneous alpha clone logins would be good enough. I hope you can manage that. You cannot control it. Not even with the player`s IP adress... Not even with the MAC adress of your network card...
Yes they can. Tie every account to a human being (name, address, credit card number, mobile phone number, voice verification, facebook/google sso, etc). Don't allow anybody to create an account without verification. Then just limit the account logins per human to 1. 99.9% of people won't have enough of those to create more than 2 accounts.
.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1977
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Posted - 2016.09.02 18:51:22 -
[30] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Why wouldn't these veteran players just use their Omega clones to gank new players? Or a trial account? Or an second Omega account paid for by skill extraction? Instant, unlimited and costless scaling? That can be easily grown into extraction funded Omegas at lower cost than current new accounts as well. So long as you can field the correct numbers there is no downside, especially as an augmentation to Omega clone characters.
Black Pedro wrote:But as to highsec ganking, let new players experience all the game has to offer, including playing as a highsec criminal. If ganking really does take off for some reason and highsec denizens can't be safe, CCP can always nerf ganking yet again, or better yet, spend some development time on completely revamping how the highsec crime, war and contraband systems work. Making limits on the number of Alphas accessible to a single player at the same time would have no effect on new players getting an opportunity to experience ganking whatsoever. I don't see any mention of adding any limits to safeties or other artificial barriers in the post you responded to so from the standpoint of a genuine new player that should be a non-issue.
Liang Nuren wrote:I didn't see any reference to the fact that Eve is beginning to be marketed as free to play in the media. It's likely to be marketed the same way on Steam. How do we reconcile the fact that people are going to come in expecting free to play and find that Eve literally supports pay to win "golden ammo" (Scorch, Null, Barrage, etc). How do we reconcile the fact that paying players will do over 2x the DPS in the same ship as alpha players? How do we prevent this from smacking of pay to win, and give them a reasonable enough Eve experience to get them hooked?
-Liang This is literally a non-change since the game launched effectively. Eve has had golden ships and ammo gated behind money in one way or another since they were introduced, whether it be time that must be paid for or more recently injectors that can be obtained. And the reputation of EvE's training system will almost certainly continue to have the perception of being the greater factor separating haves and have nots in the game.
As far as reconciling differences in effectiveness, we haven't for 13 years. Why do we need to now? It's anything but a new condition and it's always been affecting new players, paid or not. What about this fundamentally changes the dynamic or creates the need for equal effectiveness on an infinite trial, which is what it is and needs to be managed as regardless of what gaming media calls it.
The worst thing they can do is back down on the limits and further confuse the nature of what Alpha clones are while diminishing the value of Omegas. |
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Nou Mene
Out of Focus Odin's Call
19
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Posted - 2016.09.02 18:54:03 -
[31] - Quote
My 2 cents: - I think unlimited-time trial maight sound better than free to play. -Need to feed new rbos some content. If you already limiting to the selected faction, why not push new guys into epic arcs or something akin that so they can get lore/PvE/tutorials in one big package than spoons feeds them content for a week or so? |
Chan'aar
State War Academy Caldari State
36
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Posted - 2016.09.02 19:10:05 -
[32] - Quote
Right so the two biggest area's of concern your player base has point out, CCP is not concerned about.
/me gets popcorn. |
Makalu Zarya
Perkone Caldari State
226
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Posted - 2016.09.02 19:13:44 -
[33] - Quote
So from what I understand (I didn't read the previous blog in great detail), you guys are attempting to follow Wargaming's approach to f2p or p2w, whichever term you'd like to describe this.
However with World of Tanks/Warships you have to keep in mind that ~90% of the content is essentially free. You do not need a premium tank, you do not need gold ammo to win games or to even make money. Yes playing high tier tanks/ships is hard w/o premium but it can be done.
Here you essentially calling it free to play, however you are providing 5% of the actual game. The skill limits are absolutely laughable. There are very few productive things you can do with those skills. Perhaps if you expand the list to say ~50 million skill points and to the point where you can at least fly T1 ships with T1 guns perfectly it would be worth talking about. Another option to differentiate f2p vs. "premium" or "alpha" vs "omega" (call it what you like, it's the same thing) is perhaps somehow make it harder for the alpha clone to make isk. Various ways this could be achieved, slower mining, lower payouts from ratting, plexes, etc. At the end of the day however you are still letting people play the game for the most part. It will be their choice whether to pay or not to pay. Judging by wargaming it has worked out very well for them. Everyone I know who plays has a number of premium tanks/ships they paid for, most people purchase premium on and off. All of these people are current or mostly former eve players as well.
Right now this whole idea feels like an expanded, trial, which I think is a start, but if you want to broaden the community, which is badly needed btw, you need to make it more than just an extended trial. You want to make people want to play for free and show them advantages of paying. Hopefully you are heading that way, however given the last few years of questionable decisions, I have serious doubts.
-Maka |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2653
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Posted - 2016.09.02 19:15:45 -
[34] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Instant, unlimited and costless scaling? That can be easily grown into extraction funded Omegas at lower cost than current new accounts as well. So long as you can field the correct numbers there is no downside, especially as an augmentation to Omega clone characters. This already exists. I can run as many ganking (or scount or PI or mining) accounts as my computer can handle today for no cost by selling my SP. In fact today, I still make several hundred million ISK per month even if I don't undock a single character on those accounts.
Why would there suddenly be a land-rush to create even more ganking accounts when anyone who has the interest can do so today? Inferior ganking accounts for that matter and ones that don't pay you to keep them running like an SP farm does.
Don't get me wrong, I think steps should be taken to limit veteran players from exploiting these Alpha accounts for all purposes including multiboxing ganking fleets. But this hysteria that highsec is going to collapse under the weight of 10 000 new highsec criminals is completely unfounded in reality. If people want to multibox free gank fleets they can do so today, no need to wait until November.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Making limits on the number of Alphas accessible to a single player at the same time would have no effect on new players getting an opportunity to experience ganking whatsoever. I don't see any mention of adding any limits to safeties or other artificial barriers in the post you responded to so from the standpoint of a genuine new player that should be a non-issue. Did you not read the devblogs? CCP said that the second "clearest point" to emerge from the discussion so far was whether to use the safety system to lock Alpha accounts out from committing criminal acts. I have no problem with locking Alpha accounts to one or a few per person and think this probably will be necessary in the end. I do have a problem with locking potential customers out from a whole section of intended gameplay for unfounded reasons like the one Mr. Teg articulated.
Why Do They Gank?
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Freelancer117
so you want to be a Hero
504
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Posted - 2016.09.02 19:16:09 -
[35] - Quote
Will there be a max wallet cap (in isk) on alpha clones, dealing with market bots is rough
Eve online is :
A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online
D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
http://bit.ly/1egr4mF
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Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 19:24:34 -
[36] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote: To have the "golden ammo" effect the game has to start out free i think that ship sailed 13 years ago, same BS different thread.
The game is starting out free to new players. -Liang A new feature of the game Clone states : Alpha is free, the games business model has not altered from subscription based, get your facts straight.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1977
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 19:31:39 -
[37] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:This already exists. I can run as many ganking (or scout or PI or mining) accounts as my computer can handle today for no cost by selling my SP. In fact today, I still make several hundred million ISK per month even if I don't undock a single character on those accounts.
Why would there suddenly be a land-rush to create even more ganking accounts when anyone who has the interest can do so today? Inferior ganking accounts for that matter and ones that don't pay you to keep them running like an SP farm does.
Don't get me wrong, I think steps should be taken to limit veteran players from exploiting these Alpha accounts for all purposes including multiboxing ganking fleets. But this hysteria that highsec is going to collapse under the weight of 10 000 new highsec criminals is completely unfounded in reality. If people want to multibox free gank fleets they can do so today, no need to wait until November. The point there is near costless expansion, especially for those not currently selling SP. For a farming alt you're 2 months and change in the hole before you see a return (unless I math failed, which happens). With these you're able to see a return by maxing out the free portion of the SP the getting ~3 injectors from the first PLEX/sub month invested. The return lowers initial investment, which I would expect to have some effect on people considering but not yet committing to SP sale characters.
Or maybe not. Maybe the price being about a third of what it currently is doesn't matter because to anyone interested considers that trivial. And maybe anyone who wants to scale to x free accounts has already effectively done so and this wouldn't have an effect just through the reduced effort required.
But I'd rather err of the safe side and work under the assumption that lowering the barrier will increase participation.
Black Pedro wrote:Did you not read the devblogs? CCP said that the second "clearest point" to emerge from the discussion so far was whether to use the safety system to lock Alpha accounts out from committing criminal acts. I have no problem with locking Alpha accounts to one or a few per person and think this probably will be necessary in the end. I do have a problem with locking potential customers out from a whole section of intended gameplay for unfounded reasons like the one Mr. Teg articulated. Allow me to be more specific, I didn't see any mention of it in the post you responded to, as opposed to the blog itself. As far as his reasons being unfounded, as stated there are real and quantifiable differences at hand that I'd prefer a rather safe than sorry approach.
Because really, what change has ever been introduced that hasn't seen unexpected/unintended results?
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Soleil Fournier
Black Serpent Technologies The-Culture
144
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 19:50:34 -
[38] - Quote
"As we mentioned in the Q and A, we know we can use the safety system to ensure there wonGÇÖt be a problem if we need to, but we still arenGÇÖt sure if that will be necessary."
Seems like the best decision here is to err on the side of caution and enforce safeties temporarily. Lets wait a month or two for the dust to settle on Alphas and let players get used to it without having to worry about mass highsec ganking. Then after that, when things are for sure running smooth, relax the restrictions on safeties. That way you can focus on the results, players aren't overwhelmed with negative stuff on Alphas from the start, and you could revert the safeties back if necessary.
That seems like a good compromise to me. |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation Top Belt for Fun
4431
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 20:04:53 -
[39] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote:A new feature of the game Clone states : Alpha is free, the games business model has not altered from subscription based, get your facts straight.
The game's business model is kinda irrelevant. Right now the entire internet is abuzz with "Eve Online goes Free to Play", not "Eve Online extends trial accounts". New players are going to walk into this with false expectations. Again, how do we manage that and prevent it from being pay to win online?
-Liang
I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
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Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 20:19:20 -
[40] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote:A new feature of the game Clone states : Alpha is free, the games business model has not altered from subscription based, get your facts straight.
The game's business model is kinda irrelevant. Right now the entire internet is abuzz with "Eve Online goes Free to Play", not "Eve Online extends trial accounts". New players are going to walk into this with false expectations. Again, how do we manage that and prevent it from being pay to win online? -Liang Oh like these quotes from the larger online media pools
"After over a decade with a straight subscription model, the massively multiplayer space RPG EVE: Online is adding a free-to-play tier. While paid accounts will still exist for new and old players alike, the new free accounts will give gamers basic access to the vast EVE universe, "New Eden." "
"13-years after its launch, EVE Online is going free-to-play, developer CCP Games has announced. The new subscription-free experience is being introduced by way of a feature called "Clone States."
The game will create two variants of players: Alpha Clones and Omega Clones. The former are able to "train and use a specific set of skills to fly some of the most often-used ships." Although these characters are able to experience the majority of the EVE Online's gameplay experience, their character development is somewhat restricted and they train skills at a slower rate than usual. They serve as a base character for those playing for free.
The Omega Clones, meanwhile, represent the current EVE players paying for access. They have "unlimited access to skill progression and rapid skill training." An active subscription can be purchased to develop an Alpha Clone into an Omega Clone. Those that allow their subscription to lapse will revert to an Alpha state; unlocked skills exclusive to the Omega Clones will be preserved, but won't be accessible until the a subscription is renewed."
Space-bastard MMO EVE Online [official site] will go free-to-play in November, devs CCP announced today. ItGÇÖll introduce a new limited character type that anyone can play for free, keeping The Good Stuff for people who pay a subscription fee. Which is probably a good way to get more people into EVE.
So after all this hype where every single one still mentions in there articles that its still subs based but has a free option to play you still think theyre trying to dupe people ....... |
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Top Belt for Fun
4432
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 20:29:07 -
[41] - Quote
Here, I'll underline the parts you are consistently missing:
Daylan Vokan wrote: Oh like these quotes from the larger online media pools
"After over a decade with a straight subscription model, the massively multiplayer space RPG EVE: Online is adding a free-to-play tier. While paid accounts will still exist for new and old players alike, the new free accounts will give gamers basic access to the vast EVE universe, "New Eden."
A free to play tier, and it will be virtually impossible to win a fight against the pay to play tier even if you manage to find them in the same ship you're in.
Quote: "13-years after its launch, EVE Online is going free-to-play, developer CCP Games has announced. The new subscription-free experience is being introduced by way of a feature called "Clone States."
Ok, sure. We're still in the same place. I'm not seeing where anything you're posting is actually disagreeing with me.
Quote: Space-bastard MMO EVE Online [official site] will go free-to-play in November, devs CCP announced today. ItGÇÖll introduce a new limited character type that anyone can play for free, keeping The Good Stuff for people who pay a subscription fee. Which is probably a good way to get more people into EVE.
Yep, more claims of free to play and not a single mention of trial accounts.
Quote: So after all this hype where every single one still mentions in there articles that its still subs based but has a free option to play you still think theyre trying to dupe people .......
I'm not saying it's deliberate. I'm saying that it's going to cause problems and can be handled better.
-Liang
I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
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Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 20:30:38 -
[42] - Quote
Hello piloteers,
Today is a sad day as we pilots from an earlier time have lost the battle we so fiercely fought against. CCP has decided to introduce pay to win and focus more on making revenue instead. Because of this move less company energy will be available for player experience, immersiveness and the quality of the game*. According to me the only remedy to keep player retention is good quality content in exchange for the right price.
However CCP could have done it much more differently and much more elegantly.
My proposal would be to make 3 subscription accounts namely beta, gamma and omega**:
B -> Beta clone for $3-5 a month. These Beta clones are for pilots that can use all small sized ships and modules. They can use and train any skills further if they wish except the medium or large sized stuff.
G -> Gamma clone for $8-10 a month. These Gamma clones are for pilots that can use all small + medium sized ships and modules. They can use and train any skills further if they wish except the large sized stuff.
O -> Omega clone for $15 a month. These Omega clones are for pilots that can use and train all stuff. These are the current accounts we have now.
*As it is known from similar attempts the overall quality of the game will slowly dwindle and development will be less about making new, fun and good content.
**Alpha could still be the trial account but that should not be unlimited. |
Circumstantial Evidence
356
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 20:54:58 -
[43] - Quote
Marketing and Messaging: the fact Alpha clones will have heavy restrictions, and won't provide the full EVE Online experience, needs to be made clear in all CCP statements. EVE isn't really going "free to play," the expectations those words set up for some readers will lead to disappointment. The icon overlays on unusable modules and locked skills in the proposed skill sheet UI revamp, will be constant in-your-face reminders (encouragement to "upgrade") to Alpha players, that they are second-class citizens. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
945
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 20:58:04 -
[44] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote:Glad to hear that suicide ganking is high up on your concerns list.
Just to be clear, my particular concern in this area is veteran players using their Alpha clones to suicide gank true new players also using either Alpha or Omega clones. You don't need good character skills to do this, just good player skills, which veteran players will have in abundance. Other than ethics, I can't see much reason why every veteran player wouldn't have at least one Alpha clone set aside for this purpose.
As to not using Alpha clones for more serious ganking, CODE has been solving this problem for years now the same way most EVE alliances solve their problems: greater numbers. Look at their freighter kills and you'll find dozens and dozens of people using T1 fits.
For the morons in the room: I am not against suicide ganking. I've participated in it myself. My concern is the game's ecosystem, and that we'll see far more suicide gankers once the barriers to entry are removed with disposable, free Alpha clones.
So please continue to keep it in mind, thanks!
Alpha clones are a nerf to free ganking accounts compared to what we have now.
Other than ethics, there is also effort and earning. A veteran won't get much more than cheap killmails from new players, I can't imagine many people will bother with that for long, and if they do it should be pretty obvious.
Free 3rd party service
21 day trial, you keep the whole PLEX
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Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 21:01:58 -
[45] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Here, I'll underline the parts you are consistently missing: Daylan Vokan wrote: Oh like these quotes from the larger online media pools
"After over a decade with a straight subscription model, the massively multiplayer space RPG EVE: Online is adding a free-to-play tier. While paid accounts will still exist for new and old players alike, the new free accounts will give gamers basic access to the vast EVE universe, "New Eden."
A free to play tier, and it will be virtually impossible to win a fight against the pay to play tier even if you manage to find them in the same ship you're in. Quote: "13-years after its launch, EVE Online is going free-to-play, developer CCP Games has announced. The new subscription-free experience is being introduced by way of a feature called "Clone States."
Ok, sure. We're still in the same place. I'm not seeing where anything you're posting is actually disagreeing with me. Quote: Space-bastard MMO EVE Online [official site] will go free-to-play in November, devs CCP announced today. ItGÇÖll introduce a new limited character type that anyone can play for free, keeping The Good Stuff for people who pay a subscription fee. Which is probably a good way to get more people into EVE.
Yep, more claims of free to play and not a single mention of trial accounts. Quote: So after all this hype where every single one still mentions in there articles that its still subs based but has a free option to play you still think theyre trying to dupe people .......
I'm not saying it's deliberate. I'm saying that it's going to cause problems and can be handled better. -Liang Are you totally dense or purposely being obtuse, In every article i listed they say they have a free to play option but the game in it's entirety is still sub based and again you cherry pick snippets instead of the whole article. It would seem to a normal functioning person that the game is still sub based and that there is also a free to play option with limitations.
Why would they mention trial now, do you know what you even said then or what it means :a product or service that is offered to customers for free for a short period of time so they can try using it. Why would they mention trial when they are offering you the alpha state that never expires |
Reinhardt Kreiss
48
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 21:27:50 -
[46] - Quote
That's the point. When this change happens the EVE *is* a F2P game where you have to pay to get access to the good stuff, making it P2W. That is how it will be and that is how it will be seen. |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation Top Belt for Fun
4434
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 21:29:12 -
[47] - Quote
I'm actually wondering whether you're being dense or a CCP shill, TBH. Headline: Eve is Free to Play. People telling their friends about it: free to play. Pricetag on Steam: free to play. I'm pointing out that words have meanings, and right now those words are free to play.
Look, I get that there are justifications and clarifications and such to be made - but right now those are taking a strong back seat to the words free to play. And when a player comes into a free to play game and realizes that the only way to compete even in the most basic way is to pay the only words that's going to come out of their mouth is pay to win.
I'm totally down with a free to play Eve Online, but this move is branded poorly (unlimited trial) and doesn't go far enough to be actually effective (the alpha clones are way too limited).
-Liang
I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
|
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
13
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 21:35:08 -
[48] - Quote
Elayae wrote:Hello piloteers,
Today is a sad day as we pilots from an earlier time have lost the battle we so fiercely fought against. CCP has decided to introduce pay to win and focus more on making revenue instead. Because of this move less company energy will be available for player experience, immersiveness and the quality of the game*. According to me the only remedy to keep player retention is good quality content in exchange for the right price.
However CCP could have done it much more differently and much more elegantly.
My proposal would be to make 3 subscription accounts namely beta, gamma and omega**:
B -> Beta clone for $3-5 a month. These Beta clones are for pilots that can use all small sized ships and modules. They can use and train any skills further if they wish except the medium or large sized stuff.
G -> Gamma clone for $8-10 a month. These Gamma clones are for pilots that can use all small + medium sized ships and modules. They can use and train any skills further if they wish except the large sized stuff.
O -> Omega clone for $15 a month. These Omega clones are for pilots that can use and train all stuff. These are the current accounts we have now.
*As it is known from similar attempts the overall quality of the game will slowly dwindle and development will be less about making new, fun and good content.
**Alpha could still be the trial account but that should not be unlimited. Please explain how by them offering everyone access to there accounts for free, old / new / expired and completely free access with limitations to anyone who wishes to try the game unhindered by time restraints, Trial has become pay 2 win.
So you suggest that someone who pays 3 dollars a month should have the same access rights as someone who pays 15 dollars to PI / industry / Invention / Maunfacturing but because they only fly small ships its fine ... Really
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Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
13
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 21:41:39 -
[49] - Quote
Reinhardt Kreiss wrote:That's the point. When this change happens the EVE *is* a F2P game where you have to pay to get access to the good stuff, making it P2W. That is how it will be and that is how it will be seen. No its not, never has been. Pay 2 win is a label when a game is launched free 2 play then starts to add your golden ammo and various other boosts for set fee's. This is and always has been a subscription based game, theyre now offering a new feature of free play instead of timed trial period. You class wow as pay 2 win or free to play ??
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Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 21:48:13 -
[50] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:Hello piloteers,
Today is a sad day as we pilots from an earlier time have lost the battle we so fiercely fought against. CCP has decided to introduce pay to win and focus more on making revenue instead. Because of this move less company energy will be available for player experience, immersiveness and the quality of the game*. According to me the only remedy to keep player retention is good quality content in exchange for the right price.
However CCP could have done it much more differently and much more elegantly.
My proposal would be to make 3 subscription accounts namely beta, gamma and omega**:
B -> Beta clone for $3-5 a month. These Beta clones are for pilots that can use all small sized ships and modules. They can use and train any skills further if they wish except the medium or large sized stuff.
G -> Gamma clone for $8-10 a month. These Gamma clones are for pilots that can use all small + medium sized ships and modules. They can use and train any skills further if they wish except the large sized stuff.
O -> Omega clone for $15 a month. These Omega clones are for pilots that can use and train all stuff. These are the current accounts we have now.
*As it is known from similar attempts the overall quality of the game will slowly dwindle and development will be less about making new, fun and good content.
**Alpha could still be the trial account but that should not be unlimited. Please explain how by them offering everyone access to there accounts for free, old / new / expired and completely free access with limitations to anyone who wishes to try the game unhindered by time restraints, Trial has become pay 2 win. So you suggest that someone who pays 3 dollars a month should have the same access rights as someone who pays 15 dollars to PI / industry / Invention / Maunfacturing but because they only fly small ships its fine ... Really
The details about balancing PI/ industry/ Invention/ manufacturing in these different clone accounts need to be worked out I agree. It's the basic idea I think is solid.
|
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Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
13
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 21:49:31 -
[51] - Quote
Elayae wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:Hello piloteers,
Today is a sad day as we pilots from an earlier time have lost the battle we so fiercely fought against. CCP has decided to introduce pay to win and focus more on making revenue instead. Because of this move less company energy will be available for player experience, immersiveness and the quality of the game*. According to me the only remedy to keep player retention is good quality content in exchange for the right price.
However CCP could have done it much more differently and much more elegantly.
My proposal would be to make 3 subscription accounts namely beta, gamma and omega**:
B -> Beta clone for $3-5 a month. These Beta clones are for pilots that can use all small sized ships and modules. They can use and train any skills further if they wish except the medium or large sized stuff.
G -> Gamma clone for $8-10 a month. These Gamma clones are for pilots that can use all small + medium sized ships and modules. They can use and train any skills further if they wish except the large sized stuff.
O -> Omega clone for $15 a month. These Omega clones are for pilots that can use and train all stuff. These are the current accounts we have now.
*As it is known from similar attempts the overall quality of the game will slowly dwindle and development will be less about making new, fun and good content.
**Alpha could still be the trial account but that should not be unlimited. Please explain how by them offering everyone access to there accounts for free, old / new / expired and completely free access with limitations to anyone who wishes to try the game unhindered by time restraints, Trial has become pay 2 win. So you suggest that someone who pays 3 dollars a month should have the same access rights as someone who pays 15 dollars to PI / industry / Invention / Maunfacturing but because they only fly small ships its fine ... Really The details about balancing PI/ industry/ Invention/ manufacturing in these different clone accounts need to be worked out I agree. It's the basic idea I think is solid. So thats one part out the way, how is it that trial has now become pay 2 win |
Regan Rotineque
The Scope Gallente Federation
435
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 22:04:56 -
[52] - Quote
Glad to see an update blog so quickly.
As I said in when this first came out I am in support of the concept of the extended trial type account. However after reading your update blog I am more and more concerned about the issue of t1 ganking alts.
The "write up' you provide is for ganking a freighter, which of course is large has high ehp (if its fitted properly) and is the creme de la creme of the ganking business.
But I am more concerned about the fact that it takes only a couple of t1 fitted kitties or thrashers to go gank t1 haulers t2 haulers retrievers and macks covetors and hulks newbies in ventures almost all versions of frigate scanning/exploration ships the list is almost endless what CAN be ganked vs what is "harder to gank"
suggesting for a second the issue is 'freighter' ganking is missing the point entirely. Releasing a swarm of t1 non paying alts on the paid subs will result in MASSIVE unsubbing.
I for one will not continue to support and pay for a game where griefing is a FTP model. If they want to gank then sub to the game...otherwise head to low/null and pvp yourself silly. Otherwise turn the safety on for all alpha accounts in high sec.
This is your NGE moment CCP - i for one hope you dont let the pvp controlled CSM and Goon/Code squad sway your views on this.
~R~ |
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
13
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 22:16:37 -
[53] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I'm actually wondering whether you're being dense or a CCP shill, TBH. Headline: Eve is Free to Play. People telling their friends about it: free to play. Pricetag on Steam: free to play. I'm pointing out that words have meanings, and right now those words are free to play. Look, I get that there are justifications and clarifications and such to be made - but right now those are taking a strong back seat to the words free to play. And when a player comes into a free to play game and realizes that the only way to compete even in the most basic way is to pay the only words that's going to come out of their mouth is pay to win. I'm totally down with a free to play Eve Online, but this move is branded poorly (unlimited trial) and doesn't go far enough to be actually effective (the alpha clones are way too limited). -Liang So what your trying to say now is that you would prefer CCP to do what blizzard did when the rumour mill started with there Free to Play option, Say its a free to play mode, which if you read through every single article thats been published on it its what they're saying just that the headline just like Blizzards at the time read wow's gone free to play or in our case EvE's gone free to play.
They all love click bait, not saying it wasn't intentional from the source but nothing else in the articles infer's to it. |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation Top Belt for Fun
4434
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 22:30:39 -
[54] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote: So what your trying to say now is that you would prefer CCP to do what blizzard did when the rumour mill started with there Free to Play option, Say its a free to play mode, which if you read through every single article thats been published on it its what they're saying just that the headline just like Blizzards at the time read wow's gone free to play or in our case EvE's gone free to play.
They all love click bait, not saying it wasn't intentional from the source but nothing else in the articles infer's to it.
No. I think the right answer is to make a full F2P play and strengthen the Alpha clones rather substantially. Non-racial ship restrictions and relatively full skills for frigates, destroyers, and cruisers - including T2 guns and support skills. I could see an argument for extending it all the way to T1 battleships if we want to try to get people into L4 missions.
One of the interesting things about T2 and T3 ships is that their design goal was to be situationally more useful - not simply better. Thus, I feel like we can bypass the majority of "pay to win" accusations with more reasonable alpha clone limits.
-Liang
Ed: I would say that I'm concerned about suicide ganking, but the truth is that I'm no more concerned about suicide ganking than I am about existing suicide ganking alts. You don't exactly need a positive sec status to hop in a catalyst and fly several jumps into high sec to suicide someone.
I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1981
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 22:41:31 -
[55] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote: So what your trying to say now is that you would prefer CCP to do what blizzard did when the rumour mill started with there Free to Play option, Say its a free to play mode, which if you read through every single article thats been published on it its what they're saying just that the headline just like Blizzards at the time read wow's gone free to play or in our case EvE's gone free to play.
They all love click bait, not saying it wasn't intentional from the source but nothing else in the articles infer's to it.
No. I think the right answer is to make a full F2P play and strengthen the Alpha clones rather substantially. Non-racial ship restrictions and relatively full skills for frigates, destroyers, and cruisers - including T2 guns and support skills. I could see an argument for extending it all the way to T1 battleships if we want to try to get people into L4 missions. One of the interesting things about T2 and T3 ships is that their design goal was to be situationally more useful - not simply better. Thus, I feel like we can bypass the majority of "pay to win" accusations with more reasonable alpha clone limits. -Liang At that point you're marginalizing the existence of Omega clones considerably. Especially for those who have no need of capital ship gameplay. You're also turning the program into something it's not trying to be by letting gaming press determine your development decisions.
That last one especially seems entirely less than wise.
If you would have alphas escalated to the de-facto play state, how would you intent to support the game?
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Ms Michigan
Aviation Professionals for EVE The Ditanian Alliance
85
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 22:49:33 -
[56] - Quote
Geronimo McVain wrote:HandelsPharmi wrote:Zappity wrote:A limit on simultaneous alpha clone logins would be good enough. I hope you can manage that. You cannot control it. Not even with the player`s IP adress... Not even with the MAC adress of your network card... well, why do you have to control it technically? Maybe you just have to give your creditcard datas (without actual using it) to play Alpha. Or it is bound to your steam account. So you know who ownes the Alpha and so you can prevent him from logging in multiple accounts. You can't totally prevent it but you can make it a lot of hassle to do so.
This is a good idea.
Like the old saying goes, "Hit 'em where it hurts most." - the wallet. or "Put your money where your mouth is." Not that this will charge them anything on their Credit Card...but it makes it have some gravity. Just requiring an email address to setup account is tantamount to asking a rotten kid that stole a candy bar not to do it again and then letting him roam a candy store without a security or repercussions.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Top Belt for Fun
4436
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 22:52:54 -
[57] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: At that point you're marginalizing the existence of Omega clones considerably. Especially for those who have no need of capital ship gameplay. You're also turning the program into something it's not trying to be by letting gaming press determine your development decisions.
That last one especially seems entirely less than wise.
If you would have alphas escalated to the de-facto play state, how would you intent to support the game?
Well, I am making the assumption that alpha play will become either very common or the defacto play state if the F2P move is actually successful in bringing in new players. The ideal situation is that the game is compelling enough to keep them logging in while some non-trivial portion of them convert to "omega" accounts. After that, I'm sure the bright people at CCP can find some ways to monetize the free players.
That said, I'm not sure that I'd say frigs, destroyers, and cruisers is the entirety of non-capital play. I mean, I undock BCs, BSs, T2, and T3 ships pretty frequently.
-Liang
I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
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Anthar Thebess
1628
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 22:54:21 -
[58] - Quote
If we get 5mil free SP lets increase extraction level from 5 to 10mil SP
Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists
Show your support to The Cause!
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Ms Michigan
Aviation Professionals for EVE The Ditanian Alliance
85
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 22:55:01 -
[59] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I didn't see any reference to the fact that Eve is beginning to be marketed as free to play in the media. It's likely to be marketed the same way on Steam. How do we reconcile the fact that people are going to come in expecting free to play and find that Eve literally supports pay to win "golden ammo" (Scorch, Null, Barrage, etc). How do we reconcile the fact that paying players will do over 2x the DPS in the same ship as alpha players? How do we prevent this from smacking of pay to win, and give them a reasonable enough Eve experience to get them hooked?
-Liang
Another good point and my concern as well. I want to five ALPHA's as MUCH room to play as possible without it ruining the game for Omega's and the economy for all.
EVE has become more nuanced in the past few years, will it allow Omega's to enjoy the whole game along side Alpha's? Or will it not be enough and the devil of the details will kill EVE for subscribers. This is my greatest fear. This (to me) is the hardest line EVE has ever walked. Team Size Matters....you best understand it isn't just how big you are...but how you use it. |
Ms Michigan
Aviation Professionals for EVE The Ditanian Alliance
86
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 23:02:35 -
[60] - Quote
VicturusTeSaluto wrote:Upon recently returning I found the game to be depressingly empty, and while CCP really needs to do something to address the stagnation I fear this will not be a positive move.
The last time that CCP made a major push focusing on noobs in frigs(FW) was the beginning of the end for EVE, this could be the death knell.
FW focused on noobs in frigs and lead to everyone I knew, allies, enemies, acquaintances etc leaving the game within a short period of time.
Low sec used to thrive with just about everything. Ratters, miners, traders, industrialists, mission runners, explorers, pirates, anti-pies, mercs etc... As soon as they turned those regions into zones for noobs in frigs all of the ratters, miners, industrialists, mission runners, antipies, and generally non-combat oriented types deserted due to the startling appearance of fleets in local(give them 1 or 2 red flashy and they hardly notice, a constant fleet of noobs in frigs and they freak), node lag etc. Not long after that all the pirates left because noobs in frigs are not interesting or profitable targets for end-game piracy when you were used to going after marauders, faction bs, exhumers, capitals etc... Now we are at the point where a day-long low sec roam, even on the weekend is not likely to produce anything good because low sec was depopulated for good by FW.
So we are back at the point of adding more content geared solely towards noobs in frigs. So will we have massive t1 frig or cruiser fleets going around scaring off actual players just by being a general eyesore and/or causing node lag? Seems pretty likely to me!
Ya know, I think Victurus is really on to something here. I remember when I started and Low sec WAS alive in this way. I really didn't give it much thought (not a huge low sec guy) but he is right...it did clear out and the amazing low sec pirate culture that we always heard about went away due to FW. Really good point.
On to the second thought, he might be on to something here when he says it kills EVE. Now you will be killing Hi-sec with fleets of T1 trolls. Null sec will be the only "safe" space. Now mind you, I am not saying it will be totally safe, but people will band together. The problem is though, that you are effectively killing half the airspace in EVE with this. Something given for free in other words, is something not appreciated or cared for.
I am overall in favor of this release...but hearing this point I think he is right and you guys may want to rethink this free account thing. Maybe stick them on their own server or in as few systems or their own Region or something. See how it goes from there.
It may be too late to pull back the horses, in which case, shame on you CCP for rushing this without involving the players and the CSM earlier...I just think this point alone bears some serious though that Victurus made. You are not just possibly impacting the ECONOMY of EVE....You are impacting the CULTURE and consequently fun value/ subscriptions.
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Marsha Mallow
2915
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Posted - 2016.09.02 23:08:01 -
[61] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote:For the morons in the room: I am not against suicide ganking. I've participated in it myself. My concern is the game's ecosystem, and that we'll see far more suicide gankers once the barriers to entry are removed with disposable, free Alpha clones. New sig alert. Thanks, as always.
Makalu Zarya wrote:I have serious doubts.
-Maka I had serious doubts when I bumped your bridging Titan in 2011 just to hear you shriek, then felt a smidge of guilt encouraging the whole corp to do it. But seriously, after that dribbling screechfest over SP injectors, you better put some real effort into being constructive. Elaborate on your concerns carefully, and follow it up. WB btw ;)
Liang Nuren wrote:I'm actually wondering whether you're being dense or a CCP shill, TBH. Headline: Eve is Free to Play. People telling their friends about it: free to play. Pricetag on Steam: free to play. I'm pointing out that words have meanings, and right now those words are free to play.
Look, I get that there are justifications and clarifications and such to be made - but right now those are taking a strong back seat to the words free to play. And when a player comes into a free to play game and realizes that the only way to compete even in the most basic way is to pay the only words that's going to come out of their mouth is pay to win.
I'm totally down with a free to play Eve Online, but this move is branded poorly (unlimited trial) and doesn't go far enough to be actually effective (the alpha clones are way too limited). -Liang Being accused of being a shill for supporting a game you care about is getting a bit old. Some of us support CCP strongly where needed (not like they have many committed advocates in this sausage fest of one-upmanship) but we're still capable of making critiques where required. I agree on some of your points about deliberately gimping extended trials from the outset, and oppose racially locked mechanics. But rather than gurn about golden ammo (please, it's old) come up with a viable solution.
It's been FTP since SP trading was announced btw, but the system was too complex for mass adoption - which is a shame, but not insurmountable. You clearly have some experience in this niche and might have something really important in there that could overcome these very legit concerns. Stop handbagging other forumites and put your thinking cap on. It's in the press now, fairly deliberately in some ways to stop months of fighting, so the obvious problem areas will have to be fixed by players.
Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1981
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Posted - 2016.09.02 23:09:20 -
[62] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: At that point you're marginalizing the existence of Omega clones considerably. Especially for those who have no need of capital ship gameplay. You're also turning the program into something it's not trying to be by letting gaming press determine your development decisions.
That last one especially seems entirely less than wise.
If you would have alphas escalated to the de-facto play state, how would you intent to support the game?
Well, I am making the assumption that alpha play will become either very common or the defacto play state if the F2P move is actually successful in bringing in new players. The ideal situation is that the game is compelling enough to keep them logging in while some non-trivial portion of them convert to "omega" accounts. After that, I'm sure the bright people at CCP can find some ways to monetize the free players. That said, I'm not sure that I'd say frigs, destroyers, and cruisers is the entirety of non-capital play. I mean, I undock BCs, BSs, T2, and T3 ships pretty frequently. -Liang I'm going with the extension to battleships you mentioned, so we're talking about the entirety of the T1 combat lineup in that hypothetical. And I'm sure a fair set of accounts could do without higher tier ships if it means freeing up real money or time spent earning PLEX.
That aside this reads at this point like a reaction without a benefit. The biggest part of the issue with the direction you'd take this is keeping the value of Omegas, especially in relation to alt account Omegas (even skill goop funded Omegas consume paid resources incentivizing further real money purchases). Worse you eliminated a large driver to move to Omega accounts. Further you've exasperated the P2W issue by making alphas the norm, which makes Omegas that much for visible as a paid advantage class rather than the method of intended long term play.
So you've cut into your current income, offered no dependable replacement and made the P2W perception more prevalent to pander to the clickbait musings of game news. Still not sold on this being a good strategy.
Worse I'm worried about it backfiring and more cost becomes heaped upon fewer Omega players. |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation Top Belt for Fun
4436
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 23:30:06 -
[63] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: I'm going with the extension to battleships you mentioned, so we're talking about the entirety of the T1 combat lineup in that hypothetical. And I'm sure a fair set of accounts could do without higher tier ships if it means freeing up real money or time spent earning PLEX.
That aside this reads at this point like a reaction without a benefit. The biggest part of the issue with the direction you'd take this is keeping the value of Omegas, especially in relation to alt account Omegas (even skill goop funded Omegas consume paid resources incentivizing further real money purchases). Worse you eliminated a large driver to move to Omega accounts. Further you've exasperated the P2W issue by making alphas the norm, which makes Omegas that much for visible as a paid advantage class rather than the method of intended long term play.
So you've cut into your current income, offered no dependable replacement and made the P2W perception more prevalent to pander to the clickbait musings of game news. Still not sold on this being a good strategy.
Worse I'm worried about it backfiring and more cost becomes heaped upon fewer Omega players.
I'm not willing to argue about whether or not battleships and battlecruisers should be allowed on alpha clones when the simple fact of the matter is that the current offering will backfire as a terrible uncompelling F2P experience (at best) and pure P2W (at worst). An alpha account going into a novice plex is going to be obliterated by any paying player. There's just no way to be competitive or get a feel for the game when paying players do 2x the DPS and have 50% more EHP than you do in the same ship.
You're absolutely right. With my plan things would shift to 50/50 or more alpha players logged in - but I bet there's way more than 2x the people logged in. With yours, I imagine you're totally correct. Almost everyone will be a paying player, but Eve will continue its downward PCU spiral.
-Liang
I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
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Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
948
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Posted - 2016.09.02 23:31:25 -
[64] - Quote
Regan Rotineque wrote:Glad to see an update blog so quickly.
As I said in when this first came out I am in support of the concept of the extended trial type account. However after reading your update blog I am more and more concerned about the issue of t1 ganking alts.
The "write up' you provide is for ganking a freighter, which of course is large has high ehp (if its fitted properly) and is the creme de la creme of the ganking business.
But I am more concerned about the fact that it takes only a couple of t1 fitted kitties or thrashers to go gank t1 haulers t2 haulers retrievers and macks covetors and hulks newbies in ventures almost all versions of frigate scanning/exploration ships the list is almost endless what CAN be ganked vs what is "harder to gank"
suggesting for a second the issue is 'freighter' ganking is missing the point entirely. Releasing a swarm of t1 non paying alts on the paid subs will result in MASSIVE unsubbing.
I for one will not continue to support and pay for a game where griefing is a FTP model. If they want to gank then sub to the game...otherwise head to low/null and pvp yourself silly. Otherwise turn the safety on for all alpha accounts in high sec.
This is your NGE moment CCP - i for one hope you dont let the pvp controlled CSM and Goon/Code squad sway your views on this.
~R~
So what you're saying is that nothing is changing and you're unhappy about it? People who don't tank their ships enough will get always get ganked, and gankers have already access to low cost ganking characters. Due to the limits imposed on Alpha Clones, low cost ganking is actually being nerfed.
Free 3rd party service
21 day trial, you keep the whole PLEX
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oiukhp Muvila
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
17
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Posted - 2016.09.02 23:33:15 -
[65] - Quote
Dibble Dabble wrote:My corp mates and I quit eve some years ago. This was due to low sp Suicide Alts making life more difficult and the big changes to industry which was the real killer. However the proposed free accounts have given us some ideas. We probably have several trillion ISK stashed away on our mothballed accounts which can be harvested, invested etc, We also have some ideas for almost free ***** and giggles fun at the expense of established players / alliances that made life difficult in the past, indeed that would be most of the alliances, Whilst we are few in number we can not take down a freighter we can sure take down the smaller stuff. With our ISK and the free accounts I suspect we wont be only people to return. T1 Frigs / Cruisers can have a lot of fun in a target rich environment such as empire. We can have as many Alpha accounts as we want, we can train them for next to nothing and our mains can scoop the loot. Recycle them whilst kill rights expire as needed. Freighters will be safe from us, too much like hard work and we are few in number but if your in empire and your in an alliance we dont like, and that would be most of them, then you best not be on Auto Pilot, Oh and you bumpers on the gates in NPC Corps, your first, we really dont like you
This kind of shows that the issue isn't the free accounts, but how bad the game mechanics around ganking are.
The concerns regarding throwaway accounts simply shows some light on the issue that many in the ganking community have been trying to cover up for years.
In the last 6-8 yrs Hi Sec went from the normally safest (not completely safe) to the relatively most dangerous space in the game due to the increased interest in ganking from a portion of the community.
They cover it up with the saying that no space should be safe, but Hi Sec never was. CCP has bought into this and Hi Sec is still relatively the most dangerous space to live in, and many feel it is affecting new player retention regardless of the studies the ganker community likes to say counters that. |
Utremi Fasolasi
The Scope Gallente Federation
489
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 23:34:54 -
[66] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Yes please. Replace learning implants with boosters that have racial and strength flavours, e.g. "Strong Gallente Cerebral Accelerator" which boosts training speed for a week or two. It fits with the alpha racial lock and we know that the code is already in place from last year's event.
I raised the idea once in F&I for attribute booster drugs and got trolled into the dirt.
CCP really needs to moderate that section better. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
948
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 23:50:16 -
[67] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:If we get 5mil free SP lets increase extraction level from 5 to 10mil SP
That's basically what they're doing.
https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/introducing-clone-states-and-the-future-of-access-to-eve-online/
Free 3rd party service
21 day trial, you keep the whole PLEX
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Marsha Mallow
2915
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Posted - 2016.09.02 23:55:38 -
[68] - Quote
oiukhp Muvila wrote:This kind of shows that the issue isn't the free accounts, but how bad the game mechanics around ganking are. Good catch. It's highlighting multiple existing problems, which largely centre around multiboxing.* Which feels like a leading question from CCP - are they asking us, as players to set an upper limit on characters? Yes, it can be bypassed by techies. But the majority aren't (as evidenced by the recent hacking wave). The question is buried in the topic, and not unfair. What's a reasonable limit of Omega accounts, or farming in general - these impact the ecosystem too.
FW/Ganking/Mining sort of tie in, but this multiboxing/ability to scale might be the underlying theme for a lot of issues.
The NPE is something fundamental that needs it's own topic imo - altho not pleased this change was announced before the NPE changes, there's time to remedy it and give people chance to participate at a fairly high level. Might be a deliberate strategy, and not a bad one.
Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1981
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Posted - 2016.09.03 00:06:06 -
[69] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I'm not willing to argue about whether or not battleships and battlecruisers should be allowed on alpha clones when the simple fact of the matter is that the current offering will backfire as a terrible uncompelling F2P experience (at best) and pure P2W (at worst). An alpha account going into a novice plex is going to be obliterated by any paying player. There's just no way to be competitive or get a feel for the game when paying players do 2x the DPS and have 50% more EHP than you do in the same ship.
You're absolutely right. With my plan things would shift to 50/50 or more alpha players logged in - but I bet there's way more than 2x the people logged in. With yours, I imagine you're totally correct. Almost everyone will be a paying player, but Eve will continue its downward PCU spiral.
-Liang The point wasn't to argue anything as far as specifics, it just picked off of a point you stated and worked from there in place of any broad set of capabilities that would make Alphas something other than long term trials or unsubbed low tier sit ins. And 50/50 splits on a F2P is extremely generous of you I believe.
Most importantly none of what you suggest will eliminate the core of the issue of new players being obliterated. What will soon be omega accounts have been putting up with it for 13 years due to it being a function of competence and the progression system. If instant competitiveness is a desired function making everyone free Omegas would still fail to resolve it.
Feels like the statement there could use some clarification as personally I wouldn't have equated equate "not allow the extraction of skills in the Alpha set." with "not count skills in the Alpha set towards the minimum for extraction."
That or I missed a more direct statement clarifying. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3925
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 00:09:54 -
[70] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Instant, unlimited and costless scaling? That can be easily grown into extraction funded Omegas at lower cost than current new accounts as well. So long as you can field the correct numbers there is no downside, especially as an augmentation to Omega clone characters. This already exists. I can run as many ganking (or scout or PI or mining) accounts as my computer can handle today for no cost by selling my SP. In fact today, I still make several hundred million ISK per month even if I don't undock a single character on those accounts. Why would there suddenly be a land-rush to create even more ganking accounts when anyone who has the interest can do so today? Convenience. If I wanted to maintain 30 ganking Omega accounts, I would have to get extractors for each, do the extraction, sell the injectors, buy PLEX, and use the PLEX, each month, for all 30 accounts, over and over. Its alot of busy work. On the other hand, with Alpha accounts I need to do none of that. Just undock and gank whenever I want.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Top Belt for Fun
4436
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Posted - 2016.09.03 00:16:24 -
[71] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: The point wasn't to argue anything as far as specifics, it just picked off of a point you stated and worked from there in place of any broad set of capabilities that would make Alphas something other than long term trials or unsubbed low tier sit ins. And 50/50 splits on a F2P is extremely generous of you I believe.
I'm actually pretty skeptical that allowing people fly up to to T1 cruisers competently is a big enough draw to get even a 50/50 split, so I'm surprised you'd think that there'd be way more people flying alpha. Why? What content are they going to be doing?
Quote: Most importantly none of what you suggest will eliminate the core of the issue of new players being obliterated. What will soon be omega accounts have been putting up with it for 13 years due to it being a function of competence and the progression system. If instant competitiveness is a desired function making everyone free Omegas would still fail to resolve it.
I disagree. I've seen many new players grow into monster PVPers without spending 13 years doing it. However, they did require far more combat SP than is being allowed on alpha clones. The offering that's currently suggested has alpha players doing less than half of the DPS of an omega in the same ship. There's literally no way for them to be competitive, which means there's no way to get hooked on the game.
The alpha clone really must be improved, and if alphas suicide ganking and such are such a big problem then suicide ganking itself is the problem.
-Liang
I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
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elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1390
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 00:21:57 -
[72] - Quote
In short:
e2 goes dormant and I just undock 294578275265795671581254784562756356 catalysts and make involuntary sooper-capph dis-assemblies all day long?
That will be glorious! So why would anyone ever want an omega clone?
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Regan Rotineque
The Scope Gallente Federation
436
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Posted - 2016.09.03 00:22:25 -
[73] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Regan Rotineque wrote:Glad to see an update blog so quickly.
As I said in when this first came out I am in support of the concept of the extended trial type account. However after reading your update blog I am more and more concerned about the issue of t1 ganking alts.
The "write up' you provide is for ganking a freighter, which of course is large has high ehp (if its fitted properly) and is the creme de la creme of the ganking business.
But I am more concerned about the fact that it takes only a couple of t1 fitted kitties or thrashers to go gank t1 haulers t2 haulers retrievers and macks covetors and hulks newbies in ventures almost all versions of frigate scanning/exploration ships the list is almost endless what CAN be ganked vs what is "harder to gank"
suggesting for a second the issue is 'freighter' ganking is missing the point entirely. Releasing a swarm of t1 non paying alts on the paid subs will result in MASSIVE unsubbing.
I for one will not continue to support and pay for a game where griefing is a FTP model. If they want to gank then sub to the game...otherwise head to low/null and pvp yourself silly. Otherwise turn the safety on for all alpha accounts in high sec.
This is your NGE moment CCP - i for one hope you dont let the pvp controlled CSM and Goon/Code squad sway your views on this.
~R~ So what you're saying is that nothing is changing and you're unhappy about it? People who don't tank their ships enough will get always get ganked, and gankers have already access to low cost ganking characters. Due to the limits imposed on Alpha Clones, low cost ganking is actually being nerfed.
Really? You actually believe this?
Low cost ganking is being nerfed.... I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
How is free account gank alt more expensive than a plexed or subbed gank alt?
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helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
593
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 00:30:51 -
[74] - Quote
You need to prevent a person with a omega toon from logging on any alpha toons at the same time.
Otherwise EVE pvp will become everyone's omega toons plus their griffin alpha alts. and it will be JAM online and it will suck.
Plus many of us dont enjoy the low graphics, sub 5 fps, tidi, no sound battles that huge null sec engagements become. I was their during the first keepstar kill and it was the most boring, horrible looking (due to low graphics and sub 5 fps) gameplay I have ever experienced in eve. ( I am above the recommended spec and I was not multi boxing)
If you allow simultaneous log in of alpha alts with omega toons these huge tidi, horrible graphics sub 5 ps battles will be extremely frequent.
I want more people (real people not alts) playing eve and I think clone states concept is excellent but ccp you need put in place strong measures to stop alts online. Because right now people will be forced to do it. If my opponent is bring their omegas plus 1 griffin alpha alt (or 5) then I will be forced to do it do.
"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave." | zoonr-Korsairs |
Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
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Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
948
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 00:36:52 -
[75] - Quote
Regan Rotineque wrote:Elizabeth Norn wrote: So what you're saying is that nothing is changing and you're unhappy about it? People who don't tank their ships enough will get always get ganked, and gankers have already access to low cost ganking characters. Due to the limits imposed on Alpha Clones, low cost ganking is actually being nerfed.
Really? You actually believe this? Low cost ganking is being nerfed.... I don't know whether to laugh or cry. How is free account gank alt more expensive than a plexed or subbed gank alt?
Because right now you can buddy invite (21 day trial) yourself, and PLEX the buddy and gain 30 days of subscription on both accounts.
You can create two buddies per main account you PLEX and have an 85% uptime for them. You can get a lot more focused training done in 51 days than an Alpha Clone allows.
Free 3rd party service
21 day trial, you keep the whole PLEX
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1981
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Posted - 2016.09.03 00:38:24 -
[76] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I'm actually pretty skeptical that allowing people fly up to to T1 cruisers competently is a big enough draw to get even a 50/50 split, so I'm surprised you'd think that there'd be way more people flying alpha. Why? What content are they going to be doing? I'm not anticipating a 50/50 split, that was again going from a statement you made and that as a part of an expanded Alpha set of limits pushing participation in favor of their use. If Alphas have the capacity to be strong stand alone accounts in terms of capability that's what they will become (assuming there is sufficient interest out there).
Why avoid this? Because alternatives are a true F2P/P2W game with literally distinct classes. I'm not sure why you want to turn the disadvantages class into anything other than a stepping stone for those that intend to stay while citing variance in ability as a reason. It's wholly contradictory.
Quote:I disagree. I've seen many new players grow into monster PVPers without spending 13 years doing it. However, they did require far more combat SP than is being allowed on alpha clones. The offering that's currently suggested has alpha players doing less than half of the DPS of an omega in the same ship. There's literally no way for them to be competitive, which means there's no way to get hooked on the game. Anyone who's grown into a monster PvPer A) Wouldn't be classified as new at that point and B) Made the decision to stick around while under the constraints of a low SP character unless a patron of the character bazaar or more recently an injector junky. Those gaps exist because the SP system allows for it.
Also there's the number game which has been a personal power equalizer since literally the point people figured out more than one person could shoot at the same target at the same time.
Quote:The alpha clone really must be improved, and if alphas suicide ganking and such are such a big problem then suicide ganking itself is the problem.
-Liang Bit of an oversimplification. Free, unlimited expansion of a number of capabilities is a concern, including in terms of force, everywhere that specific numbered caps aren't in place. That's pretty much the entire game.
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Regan Rotineque
The Scope Gallente Federation
436
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 00:41:58 -
[77] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Regan Rotineque wrote:Elizabeth Norn wrote: So what you're saying is that nothing is changing and you're unhappy about it? People who don't tank their ships enough will get always get ganked, and gankers have already access to low cost ganking characters. Due to the limits imposed on Alpha Clones, low cost ganking is actually being nerfed.
Really? You actually believe this? Low cost ganking is being nerfed.... I don't know whether to laugh or cry. How is free account gank alt more expensive than a plexed or subbed gank alt? Because right now you can buddy invite (21 day trial) yourself, and PLEX the buddy and gain 30 days of subscription on both accounts. You can create two buddies per main account you PLEX and have an 85% uptime for them. You can get a lot more focused training done in 51 days than an Alpha Clone allows.
And abuse of the system for the purpose of ganking is banable by ccp including the inviting account. I think anyone setting up 20 buddy invite gank alts is going to be detected by ccp at some point. This new alpha thing is unlimited free t1 gankers with zero cost or reprocussions except ccp losing subs. |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation Top Belt for Fun
4436
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 02:33:37 -
[78] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Why avoid this? Because alternatives are a true F2P/P2W game with literally distinct classes. I'm not sure why you want to turn the disadvantages class into anything other than a stepping stone for those that intend to stay while citing variance in ability as a reason. It's wholly contradictory.
The rest of your post is less important than this, so I'll just answer this. See, the thing about Eve is that it's a single server sandbox and every player that logs in and undocks enriches it for every other. It doesn't even really matter whether they're mining, missioning, plexing, or PVPing - they've enriched the game by taking part in it. Thus, having alpha players who aren't willing to spend money but are willing to play is a net win because it improves my game.
However, I'm not merely looking at it from my perspective. I'm also looking at it from a cold business perspective. CCP's goals have always been (and will continue to be): higher DAUs, higher retention, and ultimately higher revenue.
DAU measures how many people log into the game every day. However, what might be more interesting how many people undock on any given day - because the majority of interactions with the game happen when someone is undocked. That is, the person isn't playing Skill Queues Online.
Retention measures how long someone will continue to play (or pay for!) the game. Eve's always been pretty sticky once people cross certain boundaries, so I'm less concerned about this (except for the undocking part mentioned above). While this isn't particularly relevant to Eve yet, it's been shown in other F2P games that there's always a chance for someone to convert as long as they continue to play a game.
Now, consider the following: alpha accounts drive DAU (and thus player interactions), have their own retention scores (and probability for conversion), and influence the retention of omega accounts via social ties. Thus, we can't treat alphas as merely a stepping stone to omegas. Thus, a fully fledged F2P Eve experience should have a free tier that is fundamentally playable. It doesn't have all the options, but you at least need to be able to compete in some areas of the game.
And yes, I've worked in F2P gaming for several years now.
-Liang
I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1508
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 04:38:37 -
[79] - Quote
Quote:We are exploring options to address this and also consulting our security and customer support team, as most of the negative behavior would depend on multi-plexing or automation, both of which are big no-no's. I've multi-boxed pretty much every area of EVE with groups of characters and have never used multi-plexing or automation. Such tools do make it easier to multi-box, but I'm not sure it's the easymode players that should be giving us the greatest concern here.
There are many ways that the addition of free accounts could be unbalancing without having to log on more than one of them at once. My chief concern is the impact on trade and industry, since there would be no need to be able to log on more than one of your 100 character alpha farm at any one time in order for it to be effective (and potentially unbalancing). |
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
422
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 05:13:53 -
[80] - Quote
Nice follow up. Thx.
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
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TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
422
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 05:26:59 -
[81] - Quote
Freelancer117 wrote:Will there be a max wallet cap (in isk) on alpha clones, dealing with market bots is rough
And dont allow accountant roles and such to Alpha clones, dont let them hide their isk on Corp wallets set up by an Omega clone.
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
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Delekon
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
20
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 05:50:04 -
[82] - Quote
I think this will be a boon to old active players as because it will bring a free alt for small stuff like hauling.
The problem i see is with scouting as a 30 man fleet can have 30 eyes out there. The easy solution would be remove or limit Dscan from Alphas. They can still scout with combats but it takes more effort and time to gather data. |
Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 07:05:32 -
[83] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:Hello piloteers,
Today is a sad day as we pilots from an earlier time have lost the battle we so fiercely fought against. CCP has decided to introduce pay to win and focus more on making revenue instead. Because of this move less company energy will be available for player experience, immersiveness and the quality of the game*. According to me the only remedy to keep player retention is good quality content in exchange for the right price.
However CCP could have done it much more differently and much more elegantly.
My proposal would be to make 3 subscription accounts namely beta, gamma and omega**:
B -> Beta clone for $3-5 a month. These Beta clones are for pilots that can use all small sized ships and modules. They can use and train any skills further if they wish except the medium or large sized stuff.
G -> Gamma clone for $8-10 a month. These Gamma clones are for pilots that can use all small + medium sized ships and modules. They can use and train any skills further if they wish except the large sized stuff.
O -> Omega clone for $15 a month. These Omega clones are for pilots that can use and train all stuff. These are the current accounts we have now.
*As it is known from similar attempts the overall quality of the game will slowly dwindle and development will be less about making new, fun and good content.
**Alpha could still be the trial account but that should not be unlimited. Please explain how by them offering everyone access to there accounts for free, old / new / expired and completely free access with limitations to anyone who wishes to try the game unhindered by time restraints, Trial has become pay 2 win. So you suggest that someone who pays 3 dollars a month should have the same access rights as someone who pays 15 dollars to PI / industry / Invention / Maunfacturing but because they only fly small ships its fine ... Really The details about balancing PI/ industry/ Invention/ manufacturing in these different clone accounts need to be worked out I agree. It's the basic idea I think is solid. So thats one part out the way, how is it that trial has now become pay 2 win
Well once the new lured players are attracted by free to play advertising, they will soon find out that if they want to compete effectively they need to pay
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Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
347
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 08:56:44 -
[84] - Quote
Regarding simultaneous Alpha Logins...
I know it is highly unlikely, but nowadays you never know where internetmobs turn up unexpected. So in theory, what would happen if all of a sudden enough Alphas login to cause a global server load problem. Will there be measures taken to protect the servers and the Omega users? Maybe like waiting queues with priority for Omega users? (would be happy to see that, but as I said - very unlikely) |
Amarak Valerii
L'Amour Et La Violence
1
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 08:58:56 -
[85] - Quote
The concept of PAY TO WIN in eve is unlike other MMOs due to the existence of PLEX! As long as PLEX is around, this entire pay-to-win discussion is irrelevant.
When people hear "pay-to-win" they immediately think they have to take out their credit cards and give out their hard earned money, witch is not entirely true in EVE. You can also pay with your soul, ahm, i mean with in game money which newcomers have all the time in the world to accumulate at their own pace. In a sense, eve has never and always been "PAY" to "WIN" because you could "win" by paying with ingame isk OR real life isk.
"Content Creators" please at least explain the term "plexing" when you use it.
tl;dr Advertise the concept of PLEX and what it means |
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
347
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 09:03:04 -
[86] - Quote
TheSmokingHertog wrote:Freelancer117 wrote:Will there be a max wallet cap (in isk) on alpha clones, dealing with market bots is rough And dont allow accountant roles and such to Alpha clones, dont let them hide their isk on Corp wallets set up by an Omega clone.
Forget it. Players will easily circumvent such artificial restrictions (transfer to Omega banker, jettison in space and so on ) and it will only complicate things.
Always KISS when possible. (Keep It Simple, Stupid!) |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17958
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 09:11:42 -
[87] - Quote
Elayae wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:Hello piloteers,
Today is a sad day as we pilots from an earlier time have lost the battle we so fiercely fought against. CCP has decided to introduce pay to win and focus more on making revenue instead. Because of this move less company energy will be available for player experience, immersiveness and the quality of the game*. According to me the only remedy to keep player retention is good quality content in exchange for the right price.
However CCP could have done it much more differently and much more elegantly.
My proposal would be to make 3 subscription accounts namely beta, gamma and omega**:
B -> Beta clone for $3-5 a month. These Beta clones are for pilots that can use all small sized ships and modules. They can use and train any skills further if they wish except the medium or large sized stuff.
G -> Gamma clone for $8-10 a month. These Gamma clones are for pilots that can use all small + medium sized ships and modules. They can use and train any skills further if they wish except the large sized stuff.
O -> Omega clone for $15 a month. These Omega clones are for pilots that can use and train all stuff. These are the current accounts we have now.
*As it is known from similar attempts the overall quality of the game will slowly dwindle and development will be less about making new, fun and good content.
**Alpha could still be the trial account but that should not be unlimited. Please explain how by them offering everyone access to there accounts for free, old / new / expired and completely free access with limitations to anyone who wishes to try the game unhindered by time restraints, Trial has become pay 2 win. So you suggest that someone who pays 3 dollars a month should have the same access rights as someone who pays 15 dollars to PI / industry / Invention / Maunfacturing but because they only fly small ships its fine ... Really The details about balancing PI/ industry/ Invention/ manufacturing in these different clone accounts need to be worked out I agree. It's the basic idea I think is solid. So thats one part out the way, how is it that trial has now become pay 2 win Well once the new lured players are attracted by free to play advertising, they will soon find out that if they want to compete effectively they need to pay
That is rather the purpose of a trial account, yes.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
15250
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Posted - 2016.09.03 09:12:59 -
[88] - Quote
I still dont see how something good can come out of it. Question to everyone saying the people will come with more money for CCP: why did they leave in the first place, or why did they not stay past the trial?
PCU counts is not everything. CCP is putting the heads in the grinder for nothing.
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him.
GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
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Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
13
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 09:21:34 -
[89] - Quote
Elayae wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote: So thats one part out the way, how is it that trial has now become pay 2 win
Well once the new lured players are attracted by free to play advertising, they will soon find out that if they want to compete effectively they need to pay So when it was labelled as "Trial" be it 14 - 21 - 30 days and maybe upto a possible 1 mill sp's gained give or take that was fine albeit limited by skill sets and time.
Now they offer Alpha states ( Unlimited trial / free play mode) you get 5 mill skill points but you can't do anything because theyre too limited or viewed as Pay 2 Win, they have access by unlimited time alone to far more than the "Trial Toons" ever had but its not enough.
So all those people / corps / alliances who have helped trial accounts over the years with there limited skill points have been wasting there time, i mean having 5 mill skill points to work with now and zero time barrier just doesnt cut it compared to 1 million and upto 30 days of play to make your mind up if your ready to commit to playing.
I can understand peoples concerns in certain area's like safety setting in high, ganking the industry / manufacturing / markets but to claim pay2win and not enough to keep them engaged is laughable. Where do you draw the line between a fully paid up player and a free mode player that is a happy medium then ?? |
Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 09:30:48 -
[90] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote: So thats one part out the way, how is it that trial has now become pay 2 win
Well once the new lured players are attracted by free to play advertising, they will soon find out that if they want to compete effectively they need to pay So when it was labelled as "Trial" be it 14 - 21 - 30 days and maybe upto a possible 1 mill sp's gained give or take that was fine albeit limited by skill sets and time. Now they offer Alpha states ( Unlimited trial / free play mode) you get 5 mill skill points but you can't do anything because theyre too limited or viewed as Pay 2 Win, they have access by unlimited time alone to far more than the "Trial Toons" ever had but its not enough. So all those people / corps / alliances who have helped trial accounts over the years with there limited skill points have been wasting there time, i mean having 5 mill skill points to work with now and zero time barrier just doesnt cut it compared to 1 million and upto 30 days of play to make your mind up if your ready to commit to playing. I can understand peoples concerns in certain area's like safety setting in high, ganking the industry / manufacturing / markets but to claim pay2win and not enough to keep them engaged is laughable. Where do you draw the line between a fully paid up player and a free mode player that is a happy medium then ??
That's what we need to find out. I believe we need a clear line in the sand, which is my proposal with the Beta, Gamma and Omega clone. Pilots can recognize more easily the small, medium and larger ships which have been defined already. The alpha clone needs to be competitive without the feeling of being not useful. Perhaps trading and manufacturing for the alpha would be good. Also adding some kind of support ship class (corvettes or cutter class ships = tiny = step lower then frigates) especially for alpha clones.
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Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
13
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 09:49:29 -
[91] - Quote
Elayae wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote: So thats one part out the way, how is it that trial has now become pay 2 win
Well once the new lured players are attracted by free to play advertising, they will soon find out that if they want to compete effectively they need to pay So when it was labelled as "Trial" be it 14 - 21 - 30 days and maybe upto a possible 1 mill sp's gained give or take that was fine albeit limited by skill sets and time. Now they offer Alpha states ( Unlimited trial / free play mode) you get 5 mill skill points but you can't do anything because theyre too limited or viewed as Pay 2 Win, they have access by unlimited time alone to far more than the "Trial Toons" ever had but its not enough. So all those people / corps / alliances who have helped trial accounts over the years with there limited skill points have been wasting there time, i mean having 5 mill skill points to work with now and zero time barrier just doesnt cut it compared to 1 million and upto 30 days of play to make your mind up if your ready to commit to playing. I can understand peoples concerns in certain area's like safety setting in high, ganking the industry / manufacturing / markets but to claim pay2win and not enough to keep them engaged is laughable. Where do you draw the line between a fully paid up player and a free mode player that is a happy medium then ?? That's what we need to find out. I believe we need a clear line in the sand, which is my proposal with the Beta, Gamma and Omega clone. Pilots can recognize more easily the small, medium and larger ships which have been defined already. The alpha clone needs to be competitive without the feeling of being not useful. Perhaps trading and manufacturing for the alpha would be good. Also adding some kind of support ship class (corvettes or cutter class ships = tiny = step lower then frigates) especially for alpha clones. You are trying to turn it into a pay to win system, the more you pay the higher the ship class you pilot and how are even smaller ships for alpha's ( free play mode ) going to make them feel like they are able to accomplish anything like what they had even in the old trial system. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
5894
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 10:26:57 -
[92] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Headline: Eve is Free to Play. People telling their friends about it: free to play. Pricetag on Steam: free to play. I'm pointing out that words have meanings, and right now those words are free to play.
Look, I get that there are justifications and clarifications and such to be made - but right now those are taking a strong back seat to the words free to play. GǪ
I'm totally down with a free to play Eve Online, but this move is branded poorly (unlimited trial) and doesn't go far enough to be actually effective (the alpha clones are way too limited).
-Liang
If you're going to argue that CCP exercise better control over how Clone States are marketed, you need to stop using the contentious phrase yourself :D
Free To Play has a distinct meaning in the gaming world, which is that most of the game is accessible to you from the start, but you'll be expending a lot of effort to gain items that pay-to-play players have easy access to. F2P also has the connotation of "Pay To Win" where people with money can basically buy victory.
Does an Alpha State account consist of an "extended trial"? What about a "sampler account"? What phrasing can we use to clearly convey that EVE Online now offers a subscription-free experience that is a limited form of the full game but still has you participating in the one universe with other players?
Day 0 Advice for New Players
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Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 10:32:57 -
[93] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote: So thats one part out the way, how is it that trial has now become pay 2 win
Well once the new lured players are attracted by free to play advertising, they will soon find out that if they want to compete effectively they need to pay So when it was labelled as "Trial" be it 14 - 21 - 30 days and maybe upto a possible 1 mill sp's gained give or take that was fine albeit limited by skill sets and time. Now they offer Alpha states ( Unlimited trial / free play mode) you get 5 mill skill points but you can't do anything because theyre too limited or viewed as Pay 2 Win, they have access by unlimited time alone to far more than the "Trial Toons" ever had but its not enough. So all those people / corps / alliances who have helped trial accounts over the years with there limited skill points have been wasting there time, i mean having 5 mill skill points to work with now and zero time barrier just doesnt cut it compared to 1 million and upto 30 days of play to make your mind up if your ready to commit to playing. I can understand peoples concerns in certain area's like safety setting in high, ganking the industry / manufacturing / markets but to claim pay2win and not enough to keep them engaged is laughable. Where do you draw the line between a fully paid up player and a free mode player that is a happy medium then ?? That's what we need to find out. I believe we need a clear line in the sand, which is my proposal with the Beta, Gamma and Omega clone. Pilots can recognize more easily the small, medium and larger ships which have been defined already. The alpha clone needs to be competitive without the feeling of being not useful. Perhaps trading and manufacturing for the alpha would be good. Also adding some kind of support ship class (corvettes or cutter class ships = tiny = step lower then frigates) especially for alpha clones. You are trying to turn it into a pay to win system, the more you pay the higher the ship class you pilot and how are even smaller ships for alpha's ( free play mode ) going to make them feel like they are able to accomplish anything like what they had even in the old trial system. Edit: Actually we have them already - Ibis, Velator, impairor and whatever the skip rats fly you want them to be in rookie ships for the duration
It has already been pay to win for some time. What I am trying to do is to give alpha clones a real full game (without all the special restrictions**) which can be stepped up more easily to a heavier subscription. As revenue is the focus why not introduce more stepping stones? Smaller ships can introduce support roles which help other ships. Apart from that alpha pilots can easily recognize their own class in which they have a better chance in combat and makes it more clear when to avoid it altogether.
**P.S. the special restrictions make it very difficult to balance the game and add a lot of problems regarding what pilots can or cannot attack at glance. Even the new racial system does not promote better combat but more awkward situations (for example just before combat, doubt slips in and ends up avoiding or fleeing the field as you do not know which skill the opponent has which could tip the balance.
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Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
13
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 10:54:33 -
[94] - Quote
Elayae wrote:It has already been pay to win for some time. What I am trying to do is to give alpha clones a real full game (without all the special restrictions**) which can be stepped up more easily to a heavier subscription. As revenue is the focus why not introduce more stepping stones? Smaller ships can introduce support roles which help other ships. Apart from that alpha pilots can easily recognize their own class in which they have a better chance in combat and makes it more clear when to avoid it altogether.
**P.S. the special restrictions make it very difficult to balance the game and add a lot of problems regarding what pilots can or cannot attack at glance. Even the new racial system does not promote better combat but more awkward situations (for example just before combat, doubt slips in and ends up avoiding or fleeing the field as you do not know which skill the opponent has which could tip the balance.
To be fair thats utter garbage from the moment you uttered its been pay 2 win for some time, your idea of multiple clones is by far the most offensive way of segregating every single tier of ship i've seen so far and price bracket it in that way. It not trying to be a world of tanks and any other free to play garbage out there which want hand in wallet sessions for everything you do. Its to offer anyone new or old a chance to experience the game unhindered by time limitations upto a certain class of ship and skill set free. If you like it you sub, if your unsure you continue in the freemode gameplay, if its not your cup of tea you leave but you can still try it again with having to start again. It's pretty simple. |
Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 11:07:08 -
[95] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:It has already been pay to win for some time. What I am trying to do is to give alpha clones a real full game (without all the special restrictions**) which can be stepped up more easily to a heavier subscription. As revenue is the focus why not introduce more stepping stones? Smaller ships can introduce support roles which help other ships. Apart from that alpha pilots can easily recognize their own class in which they have a better chance in combat and makes it more clear when to avoid it altogether.
**P.S. the special restrictions make it very difficult to balance the game and add a lot of problems regarding what pilots can or cannot attack at glance. Even the new racial system does not promote better combat but more awkward situations (for example just before combat, doubt slips in and ends up avoiding or fleeing the field as you do not know which skill the opponent has which could tip the balance.
To be fair thats utter garbage from the moment you uttered its been pay 2 win for some time, your idea of multiple clones is by far the most offensive way of segregating every single tier of ship i've seen so far and price bracket it in that way. It not trying to be a world of tanks and any other free to play garbage out there which want hand in wallet sessions for everything you do. Its to offer anyone new or old a chance to experience the game unhindered by time limitations upto a certain class of ship and skill set free. If you like it you sub, if your unsure you continue in the freemode gameplay, if its not your cup of tea you leave but you can still try it again with having to start again. It's pretty simple.
It's a clear and fair system and less offensive then the alpha clone with limited skills. Any better ideas are welcome. |
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 11:30:44 -
[96] - Quote
Elayae wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:It has already been pay to win for some time. What I am trying to do is to give alpha clones a real full game (without all the special restrictions**) which can be stepped up more easily to a heavier subscription. As revenue is the focus why not introduce more stepping stones? Smaller ships can introduce support roles which help other ships. Apart from that alpha pilots can easily recognize their own class in which they have a better chance in combat and makes it more clear when to avoid it altogether.
**P.S. the special restrictions make it very difficult to balance the game and add a lot of problems regarding what pilots can or cannot attack at glance. Even the new racial system does not promote better combat but more awkward situations (for example just before combat, doubt slips in and ends up avoiding or fleeing the field as you do not know which skill the opponent has which could tip the balance.
To be fair thats utter garbage from the moment you uttered its been pay 2 win for some time, your idea of multiple clones is by far the most offensive way of segregating every single tier of ship i've seen so far and price bracket it in that way. It not trying to be a world of tanks and any other free to play garbage out there which want hand in wallet sessions for everything you do. Its to offer anyone new or old a chance to experience the game unhindered by time limitations upto a certain class of ship and skill set free. If you like it you sub, if your unsure you continue in the freemode gameplay, if its not your cup of tea you leave but you can still try it again with having to start again. It's pretty simple. It's a clear and fair system and less offensive then the alpha clone with limited skills. Any better ideas are welcome. So lets be clear here, they're giving you unfettered access to the EvE universe for free to everyone old and new, they're now giving you 5 million skill points for free - All which are replacing the old trial very limited SP accumulation and at max 30 days play. In your wisdom you say that a tiered system of paying is better for people wanting to try and see if this is the game they could play for any length of time |
Sylvia Kildare
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 11:41:20 -
[97] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote:Just to be clear, my particular concern in this area is veteran players using their Alpha clones to suicide gank true new players also using either Alpha or Omega clones. You don't need good character skills to do this, just good player skills, which veteran players will have in abundance. Other than ethics, I can't see much reason why every veteran player wouldn't have at least one Alpha clone set aside for this purpose.
Not feeling like it?
I certainly won't be bothering with that, better things to do with my EVE playtime.
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Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
663
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 12:35:48 -
[98] - Quote
Delekon wrote:I think this will be a boon to old active players as because it will bring a free alt for small stuff like hauling.
The problem i see is with scouting as a 30 man fleet can have 30 eyes out there. The easy solution would be remove or limit Dscan from Alphas. They can still scout with combats but it takes more effort and time to gather data. If a group were to coordinate 30 scouts like that, then they deserve to be able to do so. With that said, however, as both a former regular scout myself and as someone who has seen the Hellscape that is managing active PvP fleets, the chances of 30 scouts ever happening is slim to none, and even if it did, it would cause significantly more chaos. It would make it nearly impossible to hear the signal through the noise.
For the Newbies: The 8 Golden Rules - The Magic 14 Skills - Finding the Right Corp - EVE University Wiki
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Sylvia Kildare
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 12:42:56 -
[99] - Quote
Elayae wrote:It has already been pay to win for some time. What I am trying to do is to give alpha clones a real full game (without all the special restrictions**) which can be stepped up more easily to a heavier subscription. As revenue is the focus why not introduce more stepping stones?
If you make the game that alpha clones can experience a lot more "real" and "full" that what they're talking about now, then you run the risk of reducing the number of alpha clones who will ever upgrade to omega.
It will also mean more and more veterans can reduce the number of omega accts they have by replacing them more and more with alphas. IOW, from both old AND new players, CCP will be making less cash.
That doesn't seem like the right way to go to keep the game healthy. The alpha experience MUST be lackluster compared to the omega or else there is no incentive to pay for the omega. |
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
665
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 12:47:17 -
[100] - Quote
Elayae wrote: It's a clear and fair system and less offensive then the alpha clone with limited skills. Any better ideas are welcome.
No, it's a convoluted and annoying system, and it's flawed beginning with its inception.
You're reacting as if the game is going P2W just because the trial accounts are becoming time-unrestricted. That isn't the case. EVE is, has always been, and will still be, Pay-to-play. Having time-unrestricted trial accounts doesn't magically make the game suddenly become P2W.
EVE has always had a system like it's getting: trial accounts are free and restricted in what they can train while paid accounts are paid and unrestricted. All this is doing is loosening the restrictions on what a trial account could do while making it so people can continue playing instead of having to recycle their trial accounts if they're interested in EVE but aren't sure they want to pay yet (note that, for luxury items, which a game is, if a person is on the fence about purchasing it and are put into a position of having to purchase it or walk away, the overwhelming majority will choose to walk away).
Yes, the Alpha accounts are restricted. So are trial accounts. It's impossible to train enough skills quickly enough for a trial account to achieve what an Alpha account's max skills are. A person would need to train at more than double the current max rate (barring Cerebral Boosters and +7's) to reach the SP of an Alpha char in 30 days.
Unless you believe that the current set-up that EVE has makes the game P2W, I can't fathom how you've gotten it in your mind that a time-unrestricted trial account will suddenly make the game P2W.
Time-unrestricted trial accounts do not suddenly make a Pay-to-Play game become a Pay-to-Win game.
For the Newbies: The 8 Golden Rules - The Magic 14 Skills - Finding the Right Corp - EVE University Wiki
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Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 12:56:44 -
[101] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:It has already been pay to win for some time. What I am trying to do is to give alpha clones a real full game (without all the special restrictions**) which can be stepped up more easily to a heavier subscription. As revenue is the focus why not introduce more stepping stones? Smaller ships can introduce support roles which help other ships. Apart from that alpha pilots can easily recognize their own class in which they have a better chance in combat and makes it more clear when to avoid it altogether.
**P.S. the special restrictions make it very difficult to balance the game and add a lot of problems regarding what pilots can or cannot attack at glance. Even the new racial system does not promote better combat but more awkward situations (for example just before combat, doubt slips in and ends up avoiding or fleeing the field as you do not know which skill the opponent has which could tip the balance.
To be fair thats utter garbage from the moment you uttered its been pay 2 win for some time, your idea of multiple clones is by far the most offensive way of segregating every single tier of ship i've seen so far and price bracket it in that way. It not trying to be a world of tanks and any other free to play garbage out there which want hand in wallet sessions for everything you do. Its to offer anyone new or old a chance to experience the game unhindered by time limitations upto a certain class of ship and skill set free. If you like it you sub, if your unsure you continue in the freemode gameplay, if its not your cup of tea you leave but you can still try it again with having to start again. It's pretty simple. It's a clear and fair system and less offensive then the alpha clone with limited skills. Any better ideas are welcome. So lets be clear here, they're giving you unfettered access to the EvE universe for free to everyone old and new, they're now giving you 5 million skill points for free - All which are replacing the old trial very limited SP accumulation and at max 30 days play. In your wisdom you say that a tiered system of paying is better for people wanting to try and see if this is the game they could play for any length of time
Yep the system is fair and clear. |
Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 13:05:54 -
[102] - Quote
Winter Archipelago wrote:Elayae wrote: It's a clear and fair system and less offensive then the alpha clone with limited skills. Any better ideas are welcome.
No, it's a convoluted and annoying system, and it's flawed beginning with its inception. Unless you believe that the current set-up that EVE has makes the game P2W, I can't fathom how you've gotten it in your mind that a time-unrestricted trial account will suddenly make the game P2W. Time-unrestricted trial accounts do not suddenly make a Pay-to-Play game become a Pay-to-Win game.
Yes it does as the perception is free to play at first, most players realize after a while that in order to be competitive effectively you need to pay. Hence the pay to win introduction with alpha clones which is in contrast to the system we have now in which PLEX can be earned to play.
|
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
15
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 13:06:42 -
[103] - Quote
Elayae wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:It has already been pay to win for some time. What I am trying to do is to give alpha clones a real full game (without all the special restrictions**) which can be stepped up more easily to a heavier subscription. As revenue is the focus why not introduce more stepping stones? Smaller ships can introduce support roles which help other ships. Apart from that alpha pilots can easily recognize their own class in which they have a better chance in combat and makes it more clear when to avoid it altogether.
**P.S. the special restrictions make it very difficult to balance the game and add a lot of problems regarding what pilots can or cannot attack at glance. Even the new racial system does not promote better combat but more awkward situations (for example just before combat, doubt slips in and ends up avoiding or fleeing the field as you do not know which skill the opponent has which could tip the balance.
To be fair thats utter garbage from the moment you uttered its been pay 2 win for some time, your idea of multiple clones is by far the most offensive way of segregating every single tier of ship i've seen so far and price bracket it in that way. It not trying to be a world of tanks and any other free to play garbage out there which want hand in wallet sessions for everything you do. Its to offer anyone new or old a chance to experience the game unhindered by time limitations upto a certain class of ship and skill set free. If you like it you sub, if your unsure you continue in the freemode gameplay, if its not your cup of tea you leave but you can still try it again with having to start again. It's pretty simple. It's a clear and fair system and less offensive then the alpha clone with limited skills. Any better ideas are welcome. So lets be clear here, they're giving you unfettered access to the EvE universe for free to everyone old and new, they're now giving you 5 million skill points for free - All which are replacing the old trial very limited SP accumulation and at max 30 days play. In your wisdom you say that a tiered system of paying is better for people wanting to try and see if this is the game they could play for any length of time Yep the system is fair and clear. I take it your referring to Alpha's now not your convoluted structured pay to win system of tiered ship classes and passive income magnates for 3 dollars a month.
|
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
665
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 13:13:24 -
[104] - Quote
Elayae wrote: Yes it does as the perception is free to play at first, most players realize after a while that in order to be competitive effectively you need to pay. Hence the pay to win introduction with alpha clones which is in contrast to the system we have now in which PLEX can be earned to play.
The problem with that is the verbiage, not with the execution. EVE is only going to be P2W with this change if it has always been P2W. If you want to argue that, then you're on your own, because I don't feel like killing that many brain cells just to understand it enough to argue with you.
For the Newbies: The 8 Golden Rules - The Magic 14 Skills - Finding the Right Corp - EVE University Wiki
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Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 13:14:38 -
[105] - Quote
Sylvia Kildare wrote:Elayae wrote:It has already been pay to win for some time. What I am trying to do is to give alpha clones a real full game (without all the special restrictions**) which can be stepped up more easily to a heavier subscription. As revenue is the focus why not introduce more stepping stones? If you make the game that alpha clones can experience a lot more "real" and "full" that what they're talking about now, then you run the risk of reducing the number of alpha clones who will ever upgrade to omega. It will also mean more and more veterans can reduce the number of omega accts they have by replacing them more and more with alphas. IOW, from both old AND new players, CCP will be making less cash. That doesn't seem like the right way to go to keep the game healthy. The alpha experience MUST be lackluster compared to the omega or else there is no incentive to pay for the omega.
The risk is not greater then introducing the alpha clone and upsetting the omega ones to leave. A fairer system leads to more understanding then try to mix 2 systems which are further apart. The idea is to create a win win situation for both alpha and omega.
Healthy or not, this is already a bold move. Many are in doubt or have reached the tipping point to say goodbye.
|
Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 13:19:27 -
[106] - Quote
Winter Archipelago wrote:Elayae wrote: Yes it does as the perception is free to play at first, most players realize after a while that in order to be competitive effectively you need to pay. Hence the pay to win introduction with alpha clones which is in contrast to the system we have now in which PLEX can be earned to play.
The problem with that is the verbiage, not with the execution. EVE is only going to be P2W with this change if it has always been P2W. If you want to argue that, then you're on your own, because I don't feel like killing that many brain cells just to understand it enough to argue with you.
I understand, to explain the P2W in the old system does not matter now.
|
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
15
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 13:42:16 -
[107] - Quote
Elayae wrote:Winter Archipelago wrote:Elayae wrote: It's a clear and fair system and less offensive then the alpha clone with limited skills. Any better ideas are welcome.
No, it's a convoluted and annoying system, and it's flawed beginning with its inception. Unless you believe that the current set-up that EVE has makes the game P2W, I can't fathom how you've gotten it in your mind that a time-unrestricted trial account will suddenly make the game P2W. Time-unrestricted trial accounts do not suddenly make a Pay-to-Play game become a Pay-to-Win game. Yes it does as the perception is free to play at first, most players realize after a while that in order to be competitive effectively you need to pay. Hence the pay to win introduction with alpha clones which is in contrast to the system we have now in which PLEX can be earned to play. In its current incarnation, there are people in rookie who are actually earning enough for a plex whilst they are in there trial time. So if its possible to do that when time restricted then in an endless time cycle freeplay mode you will have equal if not more of a chance to attain this level of earning ergo making your pay 2 win scenario a mute point.
That is also with t1 kit and racial ships nothing fancy. |
Amarisen Gream
Divine Demise
289
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 14:05:17 -
[108] - Quote
I might be a little slow - but alphas cannot do PI. This leaves this game feature to paying customers. woot woot.
"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger
All of his fury and rage.
He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels"
- The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1
DIDE- is open to new members
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MidnightWyvern
Night Theifs Curatores Veritatis Alliance
338
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 14:43:57 -
[109] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I didn't see any reference to the fact that Eve is beginning to be marketed as free to play in the media. It's likely to be marketed the same way on Steam. How do we reconcile the fact that people are going to come in expecting free to play and find that Eve literally supports pay to win "golden ammo" (Scorch, Null, Barrage, etc). How do we reconcile the fact that paying players will do over 2x the DPS in the same ship as alpha players? How do we prevent this from smacking of pay to win, and give them a reasonable enough Eve experience to get them hooked?
-Liang I like this point. Obviously all of us understand how this new system works, but external marketing is going to paint it in ways that don't reflect the reality and that's going to lead to confused and angry players who weren't initially familiar with EVE Online.
Sadly enough, even if CCP is very upfront about how the system will work on their own websites and on the game client, that will still lead to people trying to accuse them of misleading customers because their favorite gaming news website said "Free-to-Play!" without adequately explaining the reality.
It's looking like CCP might have to invest some time in talking to many of those websites in order to ensure that misconception is straightened out. We don't want people crying foul for no reason just when we're starting to get them interested.
Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS!
Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Top Belt for Fun
4442
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 17:22:04 -
[110] - Quote
Winter Archipelago wrote: You're reacting as if the game is going P2W just because the trial accounts are becoming time-unrestricted. That isn't the case. EVE is, has always been, and will still be, Pay-to-play. Having time-unrestricted trial accounts doesn't magically make the game suddenly become P2W. ... Time-unrestricted trial accounts do not suddenly make a Pay-to-Play game become a Pay-to-Win game.
I want to address this on two fronts: the factual nature of your claim that Eve Online will be pay to play after the change, and then move back to the obvious goals of this move.
Obviously, removing the time limit on the trial means - definitionally - that the game is no longer pay to play. People can log in, run missions, shoot people, bullshit in local, build things, mine, and more all without paying a subscription. And they can do that forever. Additionally, CCP Seagull herself talkd up how people can "play the game for free" (I believe that's actually a direct quote). There is no possible way to justify a claim that the game is pay to play once this rolls out.
Furthermore, this move has obvious goals: to increase new player adoption and to bring old players back to the game. New player adoption is fairly straight forward: we want more warm bodies in game. The single server sandbox nature of Eve Online makes it such that every person who logs in and does something in the game makes the game better for every other person. It doesn't even really matter whether they're missioning, mining, plexing, hauling, or PVPing - they are interacting with other players. In a very real sense, if this move is successful there will be a lot of these new players floating around.
Returning players is also relatively straight forward - but very different. These players return to the game and provide social interactions with established players. This increases retention for established paying players, but also increases the probability that the returning player will convert to a paying account again. As a nice side effect to this, Hours for Plex will be disappearing, which should help the petition queue times. ;-)
All things considered, I'm relatively less concerned about returning players worrying about pay to win. With them I'm concerned that they won't be able to evac null sec where they live or undock their mission BS to make more money, and the conversion bid will be unsuccessful. It's the new players that really concern me - people who have an established understanding of the term free to play. People who are going to realize that it doesn't matter how well they train or how well the fly or how many years they've played when their clone is so limited that they fundamentally cannot ever be competitive. The game won't be pay to play from that perspective. It's pay to win.
-Liang
I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
|
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Lee Mealone
Radzone
13
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 17:32:35 -
[111] - Quote
helana Tsero wrote:You need to prevent a person with a omega toon from logging on any alpha toons at the same time.
Otherwise EVE pvp will become everyone's omega toons plus their griffin alpha alts. and it will be JAM online and it will suck.
Plus many of us dont enjoy the low graphics, sub 5 fps, tidi, no sound battles that huge null sec engagements become. I was their during the first keepstar kill and it was the most boring, horrible looking (due to low graphics and sub 5 fps) gameplay I have ever experienced in eve. ( I am above the recommended spec and I was not multi boxing)
If you allow simultaneous log in of alpha alts with omega toons these huge tidi, horrible graphics sub 5 ps battles will be extremely frequent.
I want more people (real people not alts) playing eve and I think clone states concept is excellent but ccp you need put in place strong measures to stop alts online. Because right now people will be forced to do it. If my opponent is bring their omegas plus 1 griffin alpha alt (or 5) then I will be forced to do it do.
+1
For me, this is my main concern also.
I agree to the suggestion that Alpha and Omega should not be able to log-in from the same computer at the same time.
|
Velores Prokhozai
WARP Mechanics Fidelas Constans
6
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 17:48:44 -
[112] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: People who are going to realize that it doesn't matter how well they train or how well the fly or how many years they've played when their clone is so limited that they fundamentally cannot ever be competitive.
Yes, and that is right.
Liang Nuren wrote: It's pay to win.
No, it isn't. |
Delekon
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
20
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 18:01:06 -
[113] - Quote
Winter Archipelago wrote:Delekon wrote:I think this will be a boon to old active players as because it will bring a free alt for small stuff like hauling.
The problem i see is with scouting as a 30 man fleet can have 30 eyes out there. The easy solution would be remove or limit Dscan from Alphas. They can still scout with combats but it takes more effort and time to gather data. If a group were to coordinate 30 scouts like that, then they deserve to be able to do so. With that said, however, as both a former regular scout myself and as someone who has seen the Hellscape that is managing active PvP fleets, the chances of 30 scouts ever happening is slim to none, and even if it did, it would cause significantly more chaos. It would make it nearly impossible to hear the signal through the noise.
"It ai't gonna happen" is a always a bad argument in eve. |
Titus Cole Dooley
32
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 18:26:48 -
[114] - Quote
I love how every Youtube vid about this is just "ITS GOING TO BE GREAT FOR THE GAME!!!". I have a feeling its not, and this is why. I have been playing for over 3 years and I still don't know all there is about this game. The reason i stay with this game is 1 because its awesome 2 there is always more to learn and 3 I am invested in this game. Both with TIME spent (over 4300 hours) and CASH spent (5 paid accounts). I feel if you make it Free than people will not be as invested in the game. They will not have the access to all the stuff that really gets you into the game. Then when it gets a little rough for them or they get overwhelmed by the learning curve they will quit. Also this will not be good for eve in that the new fan they get out of this will not be really be into the game. Most of the people that play eve now are REALLY into the game. I just don't see Alpha clones going to fan fest.
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Kharamete
Royal Assent
170
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 18:29:56 -
[115] - Quote
MidnightWyvern wrote: I like this point. Obviously all of us understand how this new system works, but external marketing is going to paint it in ways that don't reflect the reality and that's going to lead to confused and angry players who weren't initially familiar with EVE Online.
Sadly enough, even if CCP is very upfront about how the system will work on their own websites and on the game client, that will still lead to people trying to accuse them of misleading customers because their favorite gaming news website said "Free-to-Play!" without adequately explaining the reality.
It's looking like CCP might have to invest some time in talking to many of those websites in order to ensure that misconception is straightened out. We don't want people crying foul for no reason just when we're starting to get them interested.
Eve is Pay-to-Win today. You have to pay for a subscription to even play the game. Either indirectly with PLEX or directly with your credit card. If you donGÇÖt pay, you canGÇÖt win.
That said, IGÇÖm still undecided about the system.
ItGÇÖs not opening up Eve, or the dubious tricks and exploits that the players will ferret out that alarm me. Eve players have always done this. ItGÇÖs par for the course in these things. ItGÇÖs certainly not a fear of one bloke blotting out the sun in Uedama with his gank catalysts. ItGÇÖs more... the people who are attracted to free to play game, and the methods used by the devs in those free to play games.
Perhaps IGÇÖve been unlucky, but the ones IGÇÖve tried before, it seemed that the devs spent half their time thinking up gimmicks to get the 12 year old player-base to spend their weekly allowance in the game store.
A subscription was always a gate. A divider. A hurdle. That hurdle will go away now. Twelve year old Johnny wonGÇÖt have to ask his parents to enter their credit card number to play this cool game.
Naked gnome dancing in Stormwind. Or Jita. It could be our future.
CCP FoxFour: "... the what button... oh god I didn't even know that existed. BRB."
My little youtube videos can be found here
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Ginger Naari
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 20:45:20 -
[116] - Quote
Lee Mealone wrote:helana Tsero wrote:You need to prevent a person with a omega toon from logging on any alpha toons at the same time.
Otherwise EVE pvp will become everyone's omega toons plus their griffin alpha alts. and it will be JAM online and it will suck.
Plus many of us dont enjoy the low graphics, sub 5 fps, tidi, no sound battles that huge null sec engagements become. I was their during the first keepstar kill and it was the most boring, horrible looking (due to low graphics and sub 5 fps) gameplay I have ever experienced in eve. ( I am above the recommended spec and I was not multi boxing)
If you allow simultaneous log in of alpha alts with omega toons these huge tidi, horrible graphics sub 5 ps battles will be extremely frequent.
I want more people (real people not alts) playing eve and I think clone states concept is excellent but ccp you need put in place strong measures to stop alts online. Because right now people will be forced to do it. If my opponent is bring their omegas plus 1 griffin alpha alt (or 5) then I will be forced to do it do. +1 For me, this is my main concern also. I agree to the suggestion that Alpha and Omega should not be able to log-in from the same computer at the same time.
Please explain something..
I have 4 accounts, if I decide to let a couple lapse why can't I log them on?
Just because you have both Alpha and Omega accounts should not preclude you from playing with the accounts you own. It's a silly idea.
What about the player who couldn't pay for 2 or 3 accounts, he's not allowed to now make a couple to help him? Simply because of others paranoia? |
Ray Mitar
Ganksters Inc Drake Ashigaru
113
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 22:25:39 -
[117] - Quote
Excessive limitations on Alpha accounts that stop them from activity/ game play style others use is total horse pucky.
CCP either ban high sec ganking or stop trying to coddle those who live in fear of it. Maybe I do want to log in on an Alpha and do some ganks, this is EVE right? Don't undock, become a station trader at an NPC trading hub, be safe and enjoy yourself. However if you undock into the void beware, and be ready, there be dragons here!
It might be interesting to see how the big alliances fare against swarms of Alphas taking them on in null sec, their old school origins of massive numbers to overwhelm superior firepower may return to haunt them. Now who would cry about that? Instead of being afraid of Alpha accounts Omega players should be planning plotting how to best make use of them and limiting their abilities limits all options. Be courageous or stay docked up. |
Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
15260
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 22:26:09 -
[118] - Quote
Yes, give everyone an unlimited amount of free alts. Griefers, hackers, botters, terrible persons, I dont care. But there will be no one paying after few months beside them.
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him.
GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
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Absolute Intoleranto
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 22:55:21 -
[119] - Quote
Any information about skill extractors/injectors?
I am heavily against the access of Alphas to these things! This way they could not be used as skill farms.
Of course they would have to skill their skills without any possibility of bying a injector but its only about 5 mio sp. No need for these toys!
Please dont let them use the extractors/injectors! This is something that should be a Omega privilege only.
Absolute |
Absolute Intoleranto
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 22:58:25 -
[120] - Quote
Ginger Naari wrote:Please explain something..
I have 4 accounts, if I decide to let a couple lapse why can't I log them on?
Just because you have both Alpha and Omega accounts should not preclude you from playing with the accounts you own. It's a silly idea.
What about the player who couldn't pay for 2 or 3 accounts, he's not allowed to now make a couple to help him? Simply because of others paranoia?
Thats not a paranoia. It will happen for sure.
I am also against the use of both states at the same time. |
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Absolute Intoleranto
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 23:00:23 -
[121] - Quote
Delete this. |
Ray Mitar
Ganksters Inc Drake Ashigaru
114
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 23:13:55 -
[122] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:Yes, give everyone an unlimited amount of free alts. Griefers, hackers, botters, terrible persons, I dont care. But there will be no one paying after few months beside them. Or maybe I should say playing. Not every underaged "gangsta" have enough money in piggybank to pay subscription. All the character traits you listed above already exist in abundance in EVE. Why are you so afraid? Could it be you realize that light you see coming out of the darkness straight at you, is not the end of the tunnel, it's the Alpha train!
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Lee Mealone
Radzone
13
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 23:16:14 -
[123] - Quote
Ginger Naari wrote:Lee Mealone wrote:helana Tsero wrote:You need to prevent a person with a omega toon from logging on any alpha toons at the same time.
Otherwise EVE pvp will become everyone's omega toons plus their griffin alpha alts. and it will be JAM online and it will suck.
Plus many of us dont enjoy the low graphics, sub 5 fps, tidi, no sound battles that huge null sec engagements become. I was their during the first keepstar kill and it was the most boring, horrible looking (due to low graphics and sub 5 fps) gameplay I have ever experienced in eve. ( I am above the recommended spec and I was not multi boxing)
If you allow simultaneous log in of alpha alts with omega toons these huge tidi, horrible graphics sub 5 ps battles will be extremely frequent.
I want more people (real people not alts) playing eve and I think clone states concept is excellent but ccp you need put in place strong measures to stop alts online. Because right now people will be forced to do it. If my opponent is bring their omegas plus 1 griffin alpha alt (or 5) then I will be forced to do it do. +1 For me, this is my main concern also. I agree to the suggestion that Alpha and Omega should not be able to log-in from the same computer at the same time. Please explain something.. I have 4 accounts, if I decide to let a couple lapse why can't I log them on? Just because you have both Alpha and Omega accounts should not preclude you from playing with the accounts you own. It's a silly idea.
What about the player who couldn't pay for 2 or 3 accounts, he's not allowed to now make a couple to help him? Simply because of others paranoia?
Not a silly idea as such, it's simply feedback from me to CCP and in that light it's perfectly valid. I'm not expecting everyone to agree. CCP will take feedback from us all and ensure the released feature is the best it can be for the future of EVE. It may well be that CCP allow omega and alpha to login from same computer at same time, I just don't think they should.
Also, afaik, it's not possible to play trial accounts and subscribed accounts at the same time on the same computer. So nothing new there.
It will interesting to see the final patch notes!
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Kilo Kodiak
Discoverings Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 23:54:54 -
[124] - Quote
I have a simple question ///
P I?
Plante interaction as a alfa clone?
if you have like 5 million skill points in P I and it was showing to other player can mine why can not the do P I ? |
xHxHxAOD
Northern Crux LLC The OSS
11
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 03:02:32 -
[125] - Quote
imo alphas should not be allowed to do pi. pi makes too much isk |
Kusum Fawn
Perkone Caldari State
562
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 03:20:05 -
[126] - Quote
Kilo Kodiak wrote:I have a simple question ///
P I?
Plante interaction as a alfa clone?
if you have like 5 million skill points in P I and it was showing to other player can mine why can not the do P I ?
stop doing anything. read the dev blog. there is a list of skills that are available to alpha clones. thats what they can use.
PI is not on that list.
Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
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Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 06:24:46 -
[127] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:
Yes it does as the perception is free to play at first, most players realize after a while that in order to be competitive effectively you need to pay. Hence the pay to win introduction with alpha clones which is in contrast to the system we have now in which PLEX can be earned to play.
In its current incarnation, there are people in rookie who are actually earning enough for a plex whilst they are in there trial time. So if its possible to do that when time restricted then in an endless time cycle freeplay mode you will have equal if not more of a chance to attain this level of earning ergo making your pay 2 win scenario a mute point. That is also with t1 kit and racial ships nothing fancy.
Let me explain it in full here:
P2W = Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
According to the definition Eve was already P2W in the first place. As players could buy multiple accounts and have superior advantage in combat. Although it's a bit silly of course to declare this, but the definition stills holds.
However by introducing F2P CCP made it more obvious that the game is P2W now. As a mix of F2P and P2P together is regarded as P2W by definition. Hence all the confusion in the discussion, but the F2P introduction makes it P2W properly for me. Therefore my proposed tiered system makes a lot of sense as it's more clear and fair.
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Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
15
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 07:01:02 -
[128] - Quote
Elayae wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:
Yes it does as the perception is free to play at first, most players realize after a while that in order to be competitive effectively you need to pay. Hence the pay to win introduction with alpha clones which is in contrast to the system we have now in which PLEX can be earned to play.
In its current incarnation, there are people in rookie who are actually earning enough for a plex whilst they are in there trial time. So if its possible to do that when time restricted then in an endless time cycle freeplay mode you will have equal if not more of a chance to attain this level of earning ergo making your pay 2 win scenario a mute point. That is also with t1 kit and racial ships nothing fancy. Let me explain it in full here: P2W = Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying. According to the definition Eve was already P2W in the first place. As players could buy multiple accounts and have superior advantage in combat. Although it's a bit silly of course to declare this, but the definition stills holds. However by introducing F2P CCP made it more obvious that the game is P2W now. As a mix of F2P and P2P together is regarded as P2W by definition. Hence all the confusion in the discussion, but the F2P introduction makes it P2W properly for me. Therefore my proposed tiered system makes a lot of sense as it's more clear and fair. Pay 2 win is where you have a free 2 play business model then with microtransaction you purchase in game items such as booster packs - building materials - x2 or x3 item speed ups and the old chestnut golden ammo. They are not selling these little miracle pack to make you better than anyone else in eve, You have currently trial mode and full access come november trial becomes Alpha - ( just a better trial a free play mode) Omega - full access, They have not changed the business model of the game its a subscription game as always.
Here CCP are doing what others have done, They have merely opened the game up to everyone by removing any limitation on how long they play before the game publisher ends there free time in the environment. They have also given the free play mode player the chance to interact with more of the game with upping there skill point pool three fold.
All you keep quoting are the click bait headlines of the gaming media and maybe to some extent how CCP actually delivered the news to them in the first place. If you read any of the article published on this further than the headline most go into detail on the limitations of the alpha and how the game is opened to full access with omega. |
Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 07:38:14 -
[129] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:
Let me explain it in full here:
P2W = Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
According to the definition Eve was already P2W in the first place. As players could buy multiple accounts and have superior advantage in combat. Although it's a bit silly of course to declare this, but the definition stills holds.
However by introducing F2P CCP made it more obvious that the game is P2W now. As a mix of F2P and P2P together is regarded as P2W by definition. Hence all the confusion in the discussion, but the F2P introduction makes it P2W properly for me. Therefore my proposed tiered system makes a lot of sense as it's more clear and fair.
Pay 2 win is where you have a free 2 play business model then with microtransaction you purchase in game items such as booster packs - building materials - x2 or x3 item speed ups and the old chestnut golden ammo. They are not selling these little miracle pack to make you better than anyone else in eve, You have currently trial mode and full access come november trial becomes Alpha - ( just a better trial a free play mode) Omega - full access, They have not changed the business model of the game its a subscription game as always. Here CCP are doing what others have done, They have merely opened the game up to everyone by removing any limitation on how long they play before the game publisher ends there free time in the environment. They have also given the free play mode player the chance to interact with more of the game with upping there skill point pool three fold. All you keep quoting are the click bait headlines of the gaming media and maybe to some extent how CCP actually delivered the news to them in the first place. If you read any of the article published on this further than the headline most go into detail on the limitations of the alpha and how the game is opened to full access with omega. Edit : I will add to this though, if after a short time we see become available in the NEX shop ..... Beta clone : bring your neural training upto the same as a omega for XXX Gamma clone: be able to train into small T2 weaponry for XXX Delta clone be able to train into small T2 hulls for XXX Then this is a paid advancement above the alpha clone ( Trial - free play mode ) and an additional payment of the subscription model - Omega and would constitute a pay2 win scenario.
I agree completely. Microtransactions are considered small but there is no clear answer on the amount of that. And this is where subscriptions and microtransactions fall into a grey area. I do not see a real difference here, only that microtransactions are done more random. So technically there is no real difference between them only in name but not by definition. A subscription can be regarded as a periodic microtransaction gaining full access to all gear.
|
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
15
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 08:18:18 -
[130] - Quote
Elayae wrote:I agree completely. Microtransactions are considered small but there is no clear answer on the amount of that. And this is where subscriptions and microtransactions fall into a grey area. I do not see a real difference here, only that microtransactions are done more random. So technically there is no real difference between them only in name but not by definition. A subscription can be regarded as a periodic microtransaction gaining full access to all gear.
Buy 2 play - one off payment and play your game - Expansion still fall under the same category Pay 2 play - You either have to buy the game or you get the game for free but has a recurring monthly payment Free 2 play - No cost to base game no recurring monthly payments - Usually has the - in game purchases available
Then you can throw into the mix all the crap like founder's packs or other innocuous drivel where free 2 play publishers try to hook you with one off items rare mounts and special edition junk and you can end up spending more on those than you would a premium well established franchise title for beta access or play for a week before anyone else.
I've never classed a subscription as a microtransaction. Its upfront your made fully aware of what the product entails then its up to you whether you want to continue or purchase a product of this nature. |
|
Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 10:15:25 -
[131] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:I agree completely. Microtransactions are considered small but there is no clear answer on the amount of that. And this is where subscriptions and microtransactions fall into a grey area. I do not see a real difference here, only that microtransactions are done more random. So technically there is no real difference between them only in name but not by definition. A subscription can be regarded as a periodic microtransaction gaining full access to all gear.
Buy 2 play - one off payment and play your game - Expansion still fall under the same category Pay 2 play - You either have to buy the game or you get the game for free but has a recurring monthly payment Free 2 play - No cost to base game no recurring monthly payments - Usually has the - in game purchases available Then you can throw into the mix all the crap like founder's packs or other innocuous drivel where free 2 play publishers try to hook you with one off items rare mounts and special edition junk and you can end up spending more on those than you would a premium well established franchise title for beta access or play for a week before anyone else. I've never classed a subscription as a microtransaction. Its upfront your made fully aware of what the product entails then its up to you whether you want to continue or purchase a product of this nature.
I agree. Nothing more to add here.
It's all those different interpretations of different people that start off the confusion, glad this has been cleared up. Gather all the discussion texts and put it in wikipedia already. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2332
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 12:25:58 -
[132] - Quote
Still the issue is that you will have low skilled players in easy to kill ships being farmed by players that will be seen as P2W, that in a game where the majority of possible new players see this game as a haven for player killers, it really is going to be an uphill struggle for you. I just don't know how you are going to get around this issue.
When this is implemented in November I will most probably log on, however I will not be un-docking at all and will just chat with people, well I might undock with a low skilled toon and train that one up, a bit while I can....
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
|
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
15
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 13:29:57 -
[133] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Still the issue is that you will have low skilled players in easy to kill ships being farmed by players that will be seen as P2W, that in a game where the majority of possible new players see this game as a haven for player killers, it really is going to be an uphill struggle for you. I just don't know how you are going to get around this issue.
When this is implemented in November I will most probably log on, however I will not be un-docking at all and will just chat with people, well I might undock with a low skilled toon and train that one up, a bit while I can.... I had to read your posts a couple of times for what you actually have written to properly sink in. So above you state that what CCP currently offer it's going to be viewed as some wholesale slaughter fest of new players, Yet your offering as an alternative what would be better is to be able to have six character slots 2 of which are trainable at the same time and be able to be played at the same time and alpha's only limited to slower training ..... hmmmm
So you would like twice as many Omega's in space which equates to twice as much firepower against all these new players you deem as cannon fodder already.
I would lay of the crash, sort of limits brain functions after a while ........
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2332
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 13:53:29 -
[134] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Still the issue is that you will have low skilled players in easy to kill ships being farmed by players that will be seen as P2W, that in a game where the majority of possible new players see this game as a haven for player killers, it really is going to be an uphill struggle for you. I just don't know how you are going to get around this issue.
When this is implemented in November I will most probably log on, however I will not be un-docking at all and will just chat with people, well I might undock with a low skilled toon and train that one up, a bit while I can.... I had to read your posts a couple of times for what you actually have written to properly sink in. So above you state that what CCP currently offer it's going to be viewed as some wholesale slaughter fest of new players, Yet your offering as an alternative what would be better is to be able to have six character slots 2 of which are trainable at the same time and be able to be played at the same time and alpha's only limited to slower training ..... hmmmm So you would like twice as many Omega's in space which equates to twice as much firepower against all these new players you deem as cannon fodder already. I would lay of the crash, sort of limits brain functions after a while ........
I drink a moderate amount of wine and beer, never touch drugs, only idiots do that.
Lets try to make it easier for you however, Eve has a reputation of being a farming game for player killers, with a player base that is very focused on that gameplay, over time a lot of casual less PvP focused players have moved on and left the game and many of them are quite vocal about the issue with the game. While this will appear to many as just an adjustment of the current trial period, it is much more than that, what it does is enable a possibly large number of easy to farm players to start playing Eve, it is how they perceive this disparity between their F2P clones and those that pay which will be critical to the success or not of this attempt by CCP.
You only have to see the number of low skilled people getting ganked in T1 haulers to undestand what will go on, also in any PvP situation those Alpha clones will be very out matched by the Omega clones and after a while they will start to think hold on what is this, especially if it took them some time to make and buy the stuff they lose so easily.
Now my view is that the game is really one where player killers farm others, I rather liked testing myself in this environment, but its not for everyone as the numbers of people leaving the game have shown. CCP need new players to keep a certain level of activity and those new players will in my opinion have a significant level of turn over, I wonder just what level of people they expect to get as paying customers from this effort. Without any doubt for me what has happened is that Eve is losing people who want to play casual, that is the issue and this change will do nothing to help that..
But anyone who plays this as F2P will be a masochist and they will be telling lots of people that this game is P2W, regardless of the fact that the move by CCP is really just adjusting the trial period approach.
For me a better approach would be to reduce the cost of subscription and make it so that a player can run two accounts with 6 characters for the same price of one account for a main account, also they really need to get a handle on plex pricing.
My sub runs out on my secopnd account tomorrow, this account October 5th, I made that decision before this change and it has nothing to do with my decision to stop playing, I can see what CCP want to do, but it smacks of desperation and I think CCP has to bite the bullet and understand that they have lost casual players for good.
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
|
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
15
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 14:13:58 -
[135] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Still the issue is that you will have low skilled players in easy to kill ships being farmed by players that will be seen as P2W, that in a game where the majority of possible new players see this game as a haven for player killers, it really is going to be an uphill struggle for you. I just don't know how you are going to get around this issue.
When this is implemented in November I will most probably log on, however I will not be un-docking at all and will just chat with people, well I might undock with a low skilled toon and train that one up, a bit while I can.... I had to read your posts a couple of times for what you actually have written to properly sink in. So above you state that what CCP currently offer it's going to be viewed as some wholesale slaughter fest of new players, Yet your offering as an alternative what would be better is to be able to have six character slots 2 of which are trainable at the same time and be able to be played at the same time and alpha's only limited to slower training ..... hmmmm So you would like twice as many Omega's in space which equates to twice as much firepower against all these new players you deem as cannon fodder already. I would lay of the crash, sort of limits brain functions after a while ........ I drink a moderate amount of wine and beer, never touch drugs, only idiots do that. Lets try to make it easier for you however, Eve has a reputation of being a farming game for player killers, with a player base that is very focused on that gameplay, over time a lot of casual less PvP focused players have moved on and left the game and many of them are quite vocal about the issue with the game. While this will appear to many as just an adjustment of the current trial period, it is much more than that, what it does is enable a possibly large number of easy to farm players to start playing Eve, it is how they perceive this disparity between their F2P clones and those that pay which will be critical to the success or not of this attempt by CCP. You only have to see the number of low skilled people getting ganked in T1 haulers to undestand what will go on, also in any PvP situation those Alpha clones will be very out matched by the Omega clones and after a while they will start to think hold on what is this, especially if it took them some time to make and buy the stuff they lose so easily. Now my view is that the game is really one where player killers farm others, I rather liked testing myself in this environment, but its not for everyone as the numbers of people leaving the game have shown. CCP need new players to keep a certain level of activity and those new players will in my opinion have a significant level of turn over, I wonder just what level of people they expect to get as paying customers from this effort. Without any doubt for me what has happened is that Eve is losing people who want to play casual, that is the issue and this change will do nothing to help that.. But anyone who plays this as F2P will be a masochist and they will be telling lots of people that this game is P2W, regardless of the fact that the move by CCP is really just adjusting the trial period approach. For me a better approach would be to reduce the cost of subscription and make it so that a player can run two accounts with 6 characters for the same price of one account for a main account, also they really need to get a handle on plex pricing. My sub runs out on my second account tomorrow, this account October 5th, I made that decision before this change and it has nothing to do with my decision to stop playing, I can see what CCP want to do, but it smacks of desperation and I think CCP has to bite the bullet and understand that they have lost casual players for good. Player killers I love the dramatics of it, Most call it good old fashioned PvP you know the thing a sandbox game is solely base around, Whether they sub or not they will all be viewed as a valued community member as theyre still contributing to the complete experience of EvE.
Whilst you exist in EvE your a target, you die, you learn from your mistakes - You make friends, you team up - You get revenge or you die trying. In all this you expend resources which someone has harvested, manufactured and built, you get back up and start again.
The pay 2 win tag you use I've explained a page or 2 back and im not interested in doing so again, Losers quit - knock backs just make you stronger and more determined to succeed, Hopefully with an unlimited freeplay mode people will have a stronger backbone than the whiners we have here at the moment. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17963
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 14:18:52 -
[136] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Still the issue is that you will have low skilled players in easy to kill ships being farmed by players that will be seen as P2W, that in a game where the majority of possible new players see this game as a haven for player killers, it really is going to be an uphill struggle for you. I just don't know how you are going to get around this issue.
When this is implemented in November I will most probably log on, however I will not be un-docking at all and will just chat with people, well I might undock with a low skilled toon and train that one up, a bit while I can.... I had to read your posts a couple of times for what you actually have written to properly sink in. So above you state that what CCP currently offer it's going to be viewed as some wholesale slaughter fest of new players, Yet your offering as an alternative what would be better is to be able to have six character slots 2 of which are trainable at the same time and be able to be played at the same time and alpha's only limited to slower training ..... hmmmm So you would like twice as many Omega's in space which equates to twice as much firepower against all these new players you deem as cannon fodder already. I would lay of the crash, sort of limits brain functions after a while ........ I drink a moderate amount of wine and beer, never touch drugs, only idiots do that. Lets try to make it easier for you however, Eve has a reputation of being a farming game for player killers, with a player base that is very focused on that gameplay, over time a lot of casual less PvP focused players have moved on and left the game and many of them are quite vocal about the issue with the game. While this will appear to many as just an adjustment of the current trial period, it is much more than that, what it does is enable a possibly large number of easy to farm players to start playing Eve, it is how they perceive this disparity between their F2P clones and those that pay which will be critical to the success or not of this attempt by CCP. You only have to see the number of low skilled people getting ganked in T1 haulers to undestand what will go on, also in any PvP situation those Alpha clones will be very out matched by the Omega clones and after a while they will start to think hold on what is this, especially if it took them some time to make and buy the stuff they lose so easily. Now my view is that the game is really one where player killers farm others, I rather liked testing myself in this environment, but its not for everyone as the numbers of people leaving the game have shown. CCP need new players to keep a certain level of activity and those new players will in my opinion have a significant level of turn over, I wonder just what level of people they expect to get as paying customers from this effort. Without any doubt for me what has happened is that Eve is losing people who want to play casual, that is the issue and this change will do nothing to help that.. But anyone who plays this as F2P will be a masochist and they will be telling lots of people that this game is P2W, regardless of the fact that the move by CCP is really just adjusting the trial period approach. For me a better approach would be to reduce the cost of subscription and make it so that a player can run two accounts with 6 characters for the same price of one account for a main account, also they really need to get a handle on plex pricing. My sub runs out on my second account tomorrow, this account October 5th, I made that decision before this change and it has nothing to do with my decision to stop playing, I can see what CCP want to do, but it smacks of desperation and I think CCP has to bite the bullet and understand that they have lost casual players for good.
You could just as easily make the same objection to any new player.
Maybe it has escaped your attention, but new players are seen as an exceedingly valuable resource these days - as I predicted a few years ago. There are multiple well-organised, well funded entities competing to recruit those newbros and jump start them into being competent and effective players. And those are just the ones who advertise the loudest.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Erert Mishi
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 14:25:50 -
[137] - Quote
My version one of many.
CCP has an opportunity to sell and earn on clones. My option as an example, the specified statuses of clones and number can be changed and thought out indefinitely:
Example: Alpha clone: SP 3 000 000 max, Free to Play (trial account), can't play several windows.
Omega clone: the normal character without bonuses. Single payment, by means of Money or Plex. "IMPORTANT" All players at whom the PAID subscription has ended have the status of Omega clone. Learning skills is frozen. Omega clone: Paid or it is prolonged through Plex, can learn skills.
Example: Delta clone: a bonus on damage of 50% (Paid or 2 Plex 30 day) Teta clone: a bonus on all types of repair of armor of 50% and a rating of shields (2 Plex 30day) Fieta clone: a bonus on mining of 75% (2 Plex 30 day) Zeta clone: a bonus on damage of 100% (3 Plex 30 day) Exta clone: a bonus on all types of repair of armor of 100% and a rating of shields (3 Plex 30day) Clones it is possible to think up much, the main thing that they were useful, then they will be bought by all. Giga clone: Gives 20 000 000 SP and a bonus on application of skill injector of 50%, payment by means of Money or 5 Plex at once. For those players who are ready to pay at once and more.
This example I wanted to show the idea, how to sell Clone Status for money. I will personally get a clone with busty for gas production :) Thank you |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2332
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 14:28:22 -
[138] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote:Player killers I love the dramatics of it, Most call it good old fashioned PvP you know the thing a sandbox game is solely base around, Whether they sub or not they will all be viewed as a valued community member as theyre still contributing to the complete experience of EvE.
Whilst you exist in EvE your a target, you die, you learn from your mistakes - You make friends, you team up - You get revenge or you die trying. In all this you expend resources which someone has harvested, manufactured and built, you get back up and start again.
The pay 2 win tag you use I've explained a page or 2 back and im not interested in doing so again, Losers quit - knock backs just make you stronger and more determined to succeed, Hopefully with an unlimited freeplay mode people will have a stronger backbone than the whiners we have here at the moment.
Player Killer is what the people I met who were exp-Eve players define most of the Eve player base, because they focus on getting at the player more than anything else.
Sandbox game = solely a PVP game, Seriously did you really just say that... There is a lot more than just PvP in Eve, which is why it was such a great game.
You are trying to lecture someone about how to play this game who knows how to play this game, but like so many you come out with rubbish like "You get revenge!" Some players yes, but there are many players that the only revenge you can get is worthless. Anyway I am ending my time with this game with very high SP accounts, 60bn worth of stuff and a very good killboard, not that the killboard means much to me of course, just that I killed a lot more than I was killed and a fair amount of that was done in small gangs or with me dual boxing. But culling a load of easy kill alpha clones is not worth much to me, where is the challenge in that... Though many of the Eve player base will enjoy those debased kills much as like they do now when ganking or BLOP's dropping etc. ad nauseam...
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2332
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 14:33:48 -
[139] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Still the issue is that you will have low skilled players in easy to kill ships being farmed by players that will be seen as P2W, that in a game where the majority of possible new players see this game as a haven for player killers, it really is going to be an uphill struggle for you. I just don't know how you are going to get around this issue.
When this is implemented in November I will most probably log on, however I will not be un-docking at all and will just chat with people, well I might undock with a low skilled toon and train that one up, a bit while I can.... I had to read your posts a couple of times for what you actually have written to properly sink in. So above you state that what CCP currently offer it's going to be viewed as some wholesale slaughter fest of new players, Yet your offering as an alternative what would be better is to be able to have six character slots 2 of which are trainable at the same time and be able to be played at the same time and alpha's only limited to slower training ..... hmmmm So you would like twice as many Omega's in space which equates to twice as much firepower against all these new players you deem as cannon fodder already. I would lay of the crash, sort of limits brain functions after a while ........ I drink a moderate amount of wine and beer, never touch drugs, only idiots do that. Lets try to make it easier for you however, Eve has a reputation of being a farming game for player killers, with a player base that is very focused on that gameplay, over time a lot of casual less PvP focused players have moved on and left the game and many of them are quite vocal about the issue with the game. While this will appear to many as just an adjustment of the current trial period, it is much more than that, what it does is enable a possibly large number of easy to farm players to start playing Eve, it is how they perceive this disparity between their F2P clones and those that pay which will be critical to the success or not of this attempt by CCP. You only have to see the number of low skilled people getting ganked in T1 haulers to undestand what will go on, also in any PvP situation those Alpha clones will be very out matched by the Omega clones and after a while they will start to think hold on what is this, especially if it took them some time to make and buy the stuff they lose so easily. Now my view is that the game is really one where player killers farm others, I rather liked testing myself in this environment, but its not for everyone as the numbers of people leaving the game have shown. CCP need new players to keep a certain level of activity and those new players will in my opinion have a significant level of turn over, I wonder just what level of people they expect to get as paying customers from this effort. Without any doubt for me what has happened is that Eve is losing people who want to play casual, that is the issue and this change will do nothing to help that.. But anyone who plays this as F2P will be a masochist and they will be telling lots of people that this game is P2W, regardless of the fact that the move by CCP is really just adjusting the trial period approach. For me a better approach would be to reduce the cost of subscription and make it so that a player can run two accounts with 6 characters for the same price of one account for a main account, also they really need to get a handle on plex pricing. My sub runs out on my second account tomorrow, this account October 5th, I made that decision before this change and it has nothing to do with my decision to stop playing, I can see what CCP want to do, but it smacks of desperation and I think CCP has to bite the bullet and understand that they have lost casual players for good. You could just as easily make the same objection to any new player. Maybe it has escaped your attention, but new players are seen as an exceedingly valuable resource these days - as I predicted a few years ago. There are multiple well-organised, well funded entities competing to recruit those newbros and jump start them into being competent and effective players. And those are just the ones who advertise the loudest.
And good luck to you in doing that, I always found the 5m skill point minimum to get into null alliances a bit naff when I first started playing. The change in sov was a major driver to that change.
I have made that objection in terms of new players, I would give every new player the ability to fly a DST from the word go, it sets my teeth on edge to see so many get ganked in T1 haulers with all their assets, yes it is their own stupidity and a hard lesson, but ...
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
|
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
15
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 14:37:39 -
[140] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote:Player killers I love the dramatics of it, Most call it good old fashioned PvP you know the thing a sandbox game is solely base around, Whether they sub or not they will all be viewed as a valued community member as theyre still contributing to the complete experience of EvE.
Whilst you exist in EvE your a target, you die, you learn from your mistakes - You make friends, you team up - You get revenge or you die trying. In all this you expend resources which someone has harvested, manufactured and built, you get back up and start again.
The pay 2 win tag you use I've explained a page or 2 back and im not interested in doing so again, Losers quit - knock backs just make you stronger and more determined to succeed, Hopefully with an unlimited freeplay mode people will have a stronger backbone than the whiners we have here at the moment. Player Killer is what the people I met who were exp-Eve players define most of the Eve player base, because they focus on getting at the player more than anything else. Sandbox game = solely a PVP game, Seriously did you really just say that... There is a lot more than just PvP in Eve, which is why it was such a great game. You are trying to lecture someone about how to play this game who knows how to play this game, but like so many you come out with rubbish like "You get revenge!" Some players yes, but there are many players that the only revenge you can get is worthless. Anyway I am ending my time with this game with very high SP accounts, 60bn worth of stuff and a very good killboard, not that the killboard means much to me of course, just that I killed a lot more than I was killed and a fair amount of that was done in small gangs or with me dual boxing. But culling a load of easy kill alpha clones is not worth much to me, where is the challenge in that... Though many of the Eve player base will enjoy those debased kills much as like they do now when ganking or BLOP's dropping etc. ad nauseam... I actually just checked out your killboard because the expression of player killers and your sig i was wondering if you'd had your ass handed to you on a plate a few times and what do i find, YOU have flown with CODE. Probably the worst ganking outfit in eve so with your " Multiple training and playing from a single account" and your flight buddies, Your one of the worst offenders of ganking the helpless in this game.
Go away with your bleating stories of hardship........ |
|
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
15
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 14:42:21 -
[141] - Quote
Erert Mishi wrote:My version one of many.
CCP has an opportunity to sell and earn on clones. My option as an example, the specified statuses of clones and number can be changed and thought out indefinitely:
Example: Alpha clone: SP 3 000 000 max, Free to Play (trial account), can't play several windows.
Omega clone: the normal character without bonuses. Single payment, by means of Money or Plex. "IMPORTANT" All players at whom the PAID subscription has ended have the status of Omega clone. Learning skills is frozen. Omega clone: Paid or it is prolonged through Plex, can learn skills.
Example: Delta clone: a bonus on damage of 50% (Paid or 2 Plex 30 day) Teta clone: a bonus on all types of repair of armor of 50% and a rating of shields (2 Plex 30day) Fieta clone: a bonus on mining of 75% (2 Plex 30 day) Zeta clone: a bonus on damage of 100% (3 Plex 30 day) Exta clone: a bonus on all types of repair of armor of 100% and a rating of shields (3 Plex 30day) Clones it is possible to think up much, the main thing that they were useful, then they will be bought by all. Giga clone: Gives 20 000 000 SP and a bonus on application of skill injector of 50%, payment by means of Money or 5 Plex at once. For those players who are ready to pay at once and more.
This example I wanted to show the idea, how to sell Clone Status for money. I will personally get a clone with busty for gas production :) Thank you What you are offering is nothing more than a pay 2 win system, Something that you can help yourself in game by means of opening your wallet in real life. Where this maybe fine to a precentage of the player base your always going to alienate the larger section and certainly something i find offensive. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2332
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 14:47:36 -
[142] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote: I actually just checked out your killboard because the expression of player killers and your sig i was wondering if you'd had your ass handed to you on a plate a few times and what do i find, YOU have flown with CODE. Probably the worst ganking outfit in eve so with your " Multiple training and playing from a single account" and your flight buddies, Your one of the worst offenders of ganking the helpless in this game.
Go away with your bleating stories of hardship........
How could you get that so wrong, I was shooting CODE at times, and they are a good example of why your suggestion of getting revenge is out of kilter.
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
|
Sasha Nemtsov
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
155
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 15:03:30 -
[143] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
I drink a moderate amount of wine and beer, never touch drugs, only idiots do that.
Lets try to make it easier for you however, Eve has a reputation of being a farming game for player killers, with a player base that is very focused on that gameplay, over time a lot of casual less PvP focused players have moved on and left the game and many of them are quite vocal about the issue with the game. While this will appear to many as just an adjustment of the current trial period, it is much more than that, what it does is enable a possibly large number of easy to farm players to start playing Eve, it is how they perceive this disparity between their F2P clones and those that pay which will be critical to the success or not of this attempt by CCP.
You only have to see the number of low skilled people getting ganked in T1 haulers to undestand what will go on, also in any PvP situation those Alpha clones will be very out matched by the Omega clones and after a while they will start to think hold on what is this, especially if it took them some time to make and buy the stuff they lose so easily.
Now my view is that the game is really one where player killers farm others, I rather liked testing myself in this environment, but its not for everyone as the numbers of people leaving the game have shown. CCP need new players to keep a certain level of activity and those new players will in my opinion have a significant level of turn over, I wonder just what level of people they expect to get as paying customers from this effort. Without any doubt for me what has happened is that Eve is losing people who want to play casual, that is the issue and this change will do nothing to help that..
But anyone who plays this as F2P will be a masochist and they will be telling lots of people that this game is P2W, regardless of the fact that the move by CCP is really just adjusting the trial period approach.
For me a better approach would be to reduce the cost of subscription and make it so that a player can run two accounts with 6 characters for the same price of one account for a main account, also they really need to get a handle on plex pricing.
My sub runs out on my second account tomorrow, this account October 5th, I made that decision before this change and it has nothing to do with my decision to stop playing, I can see what CCP want to do, but it smacks of desperation and I think CCP has to bite the bullet and understand that they have lost casual players for good.
Hi Dracvlad, I usually find myself disagreeing with so much that you say that I can't even be bothered to respond :) but today is different.
I only wish that EVE's reputation for attracting kill-farmers were successful in dissuading fools. Instead, Highsec is chock-full of risk-averse idiots who don't want to learn even the basics of the mechanics whereby they can be 'farmed'. Note the quotes. It's only farming from one side's perspective. If genuinely new Alpha players also take this approach then, yes, they'll probably die horribly; and so they should.
I don't know what we can do about 'casual' players. They exist, and they have every right to enjoy the game in their own way. But 'casual' shouldn't mean uncommitted. Even if you can only play 3 hours a week, it's up to you to make the most of those 3 hours - including making yourself aware of what could ruin them. But I think 'casual' describes an attitude rather than a time commitment; it's those with that attitude - Alphas and Omegas - who are likely to find themselves at the wrong end of my blasters.
Your subscription suggestion is interesting. The sub has been the same certainly since I started playing in 2013. In real terms that's an incredible reduction over time, surely? I suppose it depends where you live as to whether wages have kept pace, but I still think it's a good deal.
I wish you well for the future, and hope you'll be back Dracvlad. I agree with you that there's an air of desperation about this move by CCP, despite their having considered it for some time. It sparked 2 thoughts for me:
How long until major content expansions ('Jovian Space', 'Through the Black Hole'....) also cease to be free? They could be put behind the sort of pay wall which would only be available to Omega clones. The reaction of Alphas would be entirely predictable.
I suppose that, for we Omega folks, they could simply add an extra (fourth) character slot which was Alpha-only, for each account?
Anyway, thanks for prompting me to think a bit on a dull Sunday afternooon....
|
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
15
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 15:04:59 -
[144] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote: I actually just checked out your killboard because the expression of player killers and your sig i was wondering if you'd had your ass handed to you on a plate a few times and what do i find, YOU have flown with CODE. Probably the worst ganking outfit in eve so with your " Multiple training and playing from a single account" and your flight buddies, Your one of the worst offenders of ganking the helpless in this game.
Go away with your bleating stories of hardship........
How could you get that so wrong, I was shooting CODE at times, and they are a good example of why your suggestion of getting revenge is out of kilter. Nothing wrong with a little revenge and its fun, ok so i may have been wrong on the CODE thing but i was in a rush to go fecth the wife. still had another check and you have no problem with podding in hisec, You bait mission runners by destroying there MTU's and this i looked at properly this time. You still have not explained why having twice the firepower i.e. 2 toons from one account is better than what they offer either ?? |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2332
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 15:17:00 -
[145] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote: I actually just checked out your killboard because the expression of player killers and your sig i was wondering if you'd had your ass handed to you on a plate a few times and what do i find, YOU have flown with CODE. Probably the worst ganking outfit in eve so with your " Multiple training and playing from a single account" and your flight buddies, Your one of the worst offenders of ganking the helpless in this game.
Go away with your bleating stories of hardship........
How could you get that so wrong, I was shooting CODE at times, and they are a good example of why your suggestion of getting revenge is out of kilter. Nothing wrong with a little revenge and its fun, ok so i may have been wrong on the CODE thing but i was in a rush to go fecth the wife. still had another check and you have no problem with podding in hisec, You bait mission runners by destroying there MTU's and this i looked at properly this time. You still have not explained why having twice the firepower i.e. 2 toons from one account is better than what they offer either ??
Simple because the subscription system works for Eve which is a single shard and not split by different levels like so many other games. My suggestion is to make the subscription model less painful for players that want the real Eve experience which is the ability to run two characters at the same time. It would be so much better that CCP did this then do this Alpha clone F2P in my opinion.
No issue on that error, done that sort of error posting myself in the past, those Pods are ganker pods and I was shooting mission runners in Stain from the dominant alliance in the area, not hisec.
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
|
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
15
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 15:27:45 -
[146] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote: I actually just checked out your killboard because the expression of player killers and your sig i was wondering if you'd had your ass handed to you on a plate a few times and what do i find, YOU have flown with CODE. Probably the worst ganking outfit in eve so with your " Multiple training and playing from a single account" and your flight buddies, Your one of the worst offenders of ganking the helpless in this game.
Go away with your bleating stories of hardship........
How could you get that so wrong, I was shooting CODE at times, and they are a good example of why your suggestion of getting revenge is out of kilter. Nothing wrong with a little revenge and its fun, ok so i may have been wrong on the CODE thing but i was in a rush to go fecth the wife. still had another check and you have no problem with podding in hisec, You bait mission runners by destroying there MTU's and this i looked at properly this time. You still have not explained why having twice the firepower i.e. 2 toons from one account is better than what they offer either ?? Simple because the subscription system works for Eve which is a single shard and not split by different levels like so many other games. My suggestion is to make the subscription model less painful for players that want the real Eve experience which is the ability to run two characters at the same time. It would be so much better that CCP did this then do this Alpha clone F2P in my opinion. No issue on that error, done that sort of error posting myself in the past, those Pods are ganker pods and I was shooting mission runners in Stain from the dominant alliance in the area, not hisec. I didnt mean hisec runners just those pods, but your concerned with new players being fodder at present, but want even more Omega's out doesn't that alone double that issue especially if the new players training speed is nerfed. You say now that they would need to be masochistic to use the freeplay mode yet add to the problem by effectively doubling full account toons plus all that could happen with alpha accounts. This is what i don't follow your reasoning with. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2332
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 15:33:57 -
[147] - Quote
Sasha Nemtsov wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
I drink a moderate amount of wine and beer, never touch drugs, only idiots do that.
Lets try to make it easier for you however, Eve has a reputation of being a farming game for player killers, with a player base that is very focused on that gameplay, over time a lot of casual less PvP focused players have moved on and left the game and many of them are quite vocal about the issue with the game. While this will appear to many as just an adjustment of the current trial period, it is much more than that, what it does is enable a possibly large number of easy to farm players to start playing Eve, it is how they perceive this disparity between their F2P clones and those that pay which will be critical to the success or not of this attempt by CCP.
You only have to see the number of low skilled people getting ganked in T1 haulers to undestand what will go on, also in any PvP situation those Alpha clones will be very out matched by the Omega clones and after a while they will start to think hold on what is this, especially if it took them some time to make and buy the stuff they lose so easily.
Now my view is that the game is really one where player killers farm others, I rather liked testing myself in this environment, but its not for everyone as the numbers of people leaving the game have shown. CCP need new players to keep a certain level of activity and those new players will in my opinion have a significant level of turn over, I wonder just what level of people they expect to get as paying customers from this effort. Without any doubt for me what has happened is that Eve is losing people who want to play casual, that is the issue and this change will do nothing to help that..
But anyone who plays this as F2P will be a masochist and they will be telling lots of people that this game is P2W, regardless of the fact that the move by CCP is really just adjusting the trial period approach.
For me a better approach would be to reduce the cost of subscription and make it so that a player can run two accounts with 6 characters for the same price of one account for a main account, also they really need to get a handle on plex pricing.
My sub runs out on my second account tomorrow, this account October 5th, I made that decision before this change and it has nothing to do with my decision to stop playing, I can see what CCP want to do, but it smacks of desperation and I think CCP has to bite the bullet and understand that they have lost casual players for good.
Hi Dracvlad, I usually find myself disagreeing with so much that you say that I can't even be bothered to respond :) but today is different. I only wish that EVE's reputation for attracting kill-farmers were successful in dissuading fools. Instead, Highsec is chock-full of risk-averse idiots who don't want to learn even the basics of the mechanics whereby they can be 'farmed'. Note the quotes. It's only farming from one side's perspective. If genuinely new Alpha players also take this approach then, yes, they'll probably die horribly; and so they should. I don't know what we can do about 'casual' players. They exist, and they have every right to enjoy the game in their own way. But 'casual' shouldn't mean uncommitted. Even if you can only play 3 hours a week, it's up to you to make the most of those 3 hours - including making yourself aware of what could ruin them. But I think 'casual' describes an attitude rather than a time commitment; it's those with that attitude - Alphas and Omegas - who are likely to find themselves at the wrong end of my blasters. Your subscription suggestion is interesting. The sub has been the same certainly since I started playing in 2013. In real terms that's an incredible reduction over time, surely? I suppose it depends where you live as to whether wages have kept pace, but I still think it's a good deal. I wish you well for the future, and hope you'll be back Dracvlad. I agree with you that there's an air of desperation about this move by CCP, despite their having considered it for some time. It sparked 2 thoughts for me: How long until major content expansions ('Jovian Space', 'Through the Black Hole'....) also cease to be free? They could be put behind the sort of pay wall which would only be available to Omega clones. The reaction of Alphas would be entirely predictable. I suppose that, for we Omega folks, they could simply add an extra (fourth) character slot which was Alpha-only, for each account? Anyway, thanks for prompting me to think a bit on a dull Sunday afternooon....
Hi, from my perspective Eve is really only playable with two characters, if CCP bite that bullet they might be surprised, I just hope they do that and I think that the subscription method can still work for a game as detailed and sophisticated as Eve.
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2332
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 15:55:32 -
[148] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote:I didnt mean hisec runners just those pods, but your concerned with new players being fodder at present, but want even more Omega's out doesn't that alone double that issue especially if the new players training speed is nerfed. You say now that they would need to be masochistic to use the freeplay mode yet add to the problem by effectively doubling full account toons plus all that could happen with alpha accounts. This is what i don't follow your reasoning with.
Eve is a game where people farm others and very efficiently too, you may have contempt for CODE and Miniluv, but I don't, those players are very very good at what they do. The simple fact is that this subscription model can still work for Eve, but they have to be more aware of their player base. One example is that plex prices went above the level that most hisec players could be bothered to sustain.
The point you are making is not really important to me because I expect those people to be farmed, and I think that only a few will move on to paying and many will get turned off by being ganked in a T1 indy and others will get turned off by getting smashed every time they go to lowsec, just imagine what Tama is going to look like. And that will happen regardless of my suggestion or not.
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
|
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
15
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 16:22:23 -
[149] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote:I didnt mean hisec runners just those pods, but your concerned with new players being fodder at present, but want even more Omega's out doesn't that alone double that issue especially if the new players training speed is nerfed. You say now that they would need to be masochistic to use the freeplay mode yet add to the problem by effectively doubling full account toons plus all that could happen with alpha accounts. This is what i don't follow your reasoning with. Eve is a game where people farm others and very efficiently too, you may have contempt for CODE and Miniluv, but I don't, those players are very very good at what they do. The simple fact is that this subscription model can still work for Eve, but they have to be more aware of their player base. One example is that plex prices went above the level that most hisec players could be bothered to sustain. The point you are making is not really important to me because I expect those people to be farmed, and I think that only a few will move on to paying and many will get turned off by being ganked in a T1 indy and others will get turned off by getting smashed every time they go to lowsec, just imagine what Tama is going to look like. And that will happen regardless of my suggestion or not. You spend anytime in rookie then you will see that 90% of players that enter low / WH space never last more than 15 minutes the first time, those that amble there way to null have a far greater experience most still meet with a sticky end but find it more enjoyable than low. They do try and it seems more over the past few months are subbing how long they stay is more difficult to assess though. If theyre set on mining which quite alot are they are made aware of certain groups, how to add - standing and to watch the killboards to see if theyre operating in a local area to them. I think the more help they get in the first week or so dictates to the overall experience. I doubt many stay if they enter thinking they can stumble through blindly like a single player game or being destroyed could mean you start from scratch, which a lot can't grasp the first time it happens |
Warlord Balrog
303rd X-SOLDIER
2
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 16:37:48 -
[150] - Quote
Alpha state + Omega state --- Way back when, you couldn't login a trial and paid account at the same time, this should be true of clone states. IMHO, free station trade comes to mind as far as abuse.
Trade hub spam --- I hate filters and restrictions as much as the next gamer, but if alphas roam free we're looking at a disaster. Also, too many alphas 'blockading' login queues, preventing jumps into trade hubs, and even bottlenecking un-reinforced nodes [no DDoS plz] are a few things I would like to bring up before I make peace with this feature.
Character Bazaar --- Should it be allowed for an alpha? If I cannot afford to sub all of my accounts, should I be given a chance to sell one I'm barely using while being an alpha to support the others?
MCT ---Can you MCT toon #2, while #1 stays alpha state? Meh...weird.
Marketing --- An alpha as a trade alt could be trouble. Especially if they haven't invested in the game like Omegas; veteran or not. Perhaps limit number of items/contracts posted. For example 3 contracts at a time, 1 billion ISK per week or 1000 items (IE: 50 ships + 450 fuel blocks + 500 guns) for trade at once to prevent alphas to substantial incomes to support paid 'master' accounts. It will help shift them to other aspects of the game as well, such as missions, mining, PvE and PvP--as they cannot finance from idle gameplay. Another option could be gifting/overpricing restrictions to prevent the same abuse; aka hard limit per month transfered and no buying that 1 trit for 5 billion ISK. (I quit eve! 1 billion isk for 1 trit -- ha ha ha)
Invitations --- Allowed in alpha state?
Special gifts --- Reduced set of gifts for F2P consumers. Not only to avoid multiple freebie accounts, but to not cheapen paid customers' precious "thank yous"
Passive time-based fun --- R&D, PI, blueprint goodies, *new* industrial buildings that will replace moon mining. Maybe pause blueprint research...?
Anchoring --- Madness! Should it be blocked entirely? I say nay, but without having a substantial investment, limit number of anchored objects...please?
Balance --- Alpha is a terrific idea, perhaps a structured invitation reward system where they can gain extra ...say... ISK or LP (Think ESS-based system) as they progress through EVE's rich storyline. Promotions through ranks, rewards, and graduation being a free month of Omega state to see what they could be interested in! This will slightly mimic the style of system you have with The Scope's campaign and SoE's guilty pleasure. - Unique Alpha achievement system could be such: # Earn 2500 unused SP per new alpha that plays for a month (Towards Omega skills later in your EVE career) # Stay active with a corp sponser for at least a month and choose a 5 run cruiser, 20 run weapon, and 100 run ammo BPC set * Sponsers are a list of noob friendly teaching corps with tied interests for the capsuleer, such as: EVE-Uni, RvB, EVE Scouts and Pandemic Horde to name a few. # Train all skills to cap and receive a racial skin pack (automatically activated) or unique for new alpha state pilot graduates; 'the proud pod' skin...is that engraved with 'I Survived my first months of EVE'?
Alphas enthuasism ---Most alphas will be new or "How do EVE again?" players, where's their cookie? Something to say thank you for returning/trying the best MMO, but unique for alphas. 10% off first month sub? Nah. Some free skillbooks? Boooorrriiinnggg. I'm out of ideas, but I feel this should be addressed, even if declined.
And as for the 'sending in the alpha clones' problem, I have a few ideas: #1 - Temporary google authenticator key token restriction ---Your first month you cannot login without the token -- This will prevent me say, making 10 alphas to ......alpha the competition in FW. I realize this will hurt massive lemmings to jump into EVE, but it as far as I know, you cannot register for massive 'source keys'. On a side note, this may also bring more people into the game after learning about security for their new account. #2 - EVE App! Seriously, who doesn't have a cellphone or a friend with one? The app releases a key for an alpha clone, for you or a friend. Limit three or something per IEMI. #3 - Financial tie --- This one makes me cringe, however, by linking a card to an account it will definately help prevent one person from owning 'too many' accounts. #4 - Social media --- Not exactly sure how to limit this, as I know some people with many...MANY facebook accounts, perhaps someone smarter than I can think of something :) I'll just be the conduit to spark an idea.
+ 2 cents worth in words; -5 cents for editing while exhausted |
|
Sylvia Kildare
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 18:09:21 -
[151] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:All things considered, I'm relatively less concerned about returning players worrying about pay to win. With them I'm concerned that they won't be able to evac null sec where they live or undock their mission BS to make more money, and the conversion bid will be unsuccessful. It's the new players that really concern me - people who have an established understanding of the term free to play. People who are going to realize that it doesn't matter how well they train or how well the fly or how many years they've played when their clone is so limited that they fundamentally cannot ever be competitive. The game won't be pay to play from that perspective. It's pay to win.
Or just pay to play better. Pay to play the whole game instead of just part of it.
No win is guaranteed.
Warlord Balrog wrote:MCT ---Can you MCT toon #2, while #1 stays alpha state? Meh...weird.
Invitations --- Allowed in alpha state?
I would think you'd need to have a sub or have used a PLEX to activate MCT on a 2nd toon on the same acct. An alpha acct = all 3 toons are alpha. An omega acct = all 3 toons are omega (and only 1 trains at a time unless MCT is active).
Not sure what you mean by invitations...? Invitations to a duel? To a fleet? To a channel? to a Private Message/Chat? |
Warlord Balrog
303rd X-SOLDIER
3
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 18:23:39 -
[152] - Quote
Sylvia Kildare wrote: Not sure what you mean by invitations...? Invitations to a duel? To a fleet? To a channel? to a Private Message/Chat?
Recruit a Friend |
Ray Mitar
Ganksters Inc Drake Ashigaru
116
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 18:40:50 -
[153] - Quote
Warlord Balrog wrote:Alpha state + Omega state --- Way back when, you couldn't login a trial and paid account at the same time, this should be true of clone states. IMHO, free station trade comes to mind as far as abuse.
Trade hub spam --- I hate filters and restrictions as much as the next gamer, but if alphas roam free we're looking at a disaster. Also, too many alphas 'blockading' login queues, preventing jumps into trade hubs, and even bottlenecking un-reinforced nodes [no DDoS plz] are a few things I would like to bring up before I make peace with this feature.
Character Bazaar --- Should it be allowed for an alpha? If I cannot afford to sub all of my accounts, should I be given a chance to sell one I'm barely using while being an alpha to support the others?
MCT ---Can you MCT toon #2, while #1 stays alpha state? Meh...weird.
Marketing --- An alpha as a trade alt could be trouble. Especially if they haven't invested in the game like Omegas; veteran or not. Perhaps limit number of items/contracts posted. For example 3 contracts at a time, 1 billion ISK per week or 1000 items (IE: 50 ships + 450 fuel blocks + 500 guns) for trade at once to prevent alphas to substantial incomes to support paid 'master' accounts. It will help shift them to other aspects of the game as well, such as missions, mining, PvE and PvP--as they cannot finance from idle gameplay. Another option could be gifting/overpricing restrictions to prevent the same abuse; aka hard limit per month transfered and no buying that 1 trit for 5 billion ISK. (I quit eve! 1 billion isk for 1 trit -- ha ha ha)
Invitations --- Allowed in alpha state?
Special gifts --- Reduced set of gifts for F2P consumers. Not only to avoid multiple freebie accounts, but to not cheapen paid customers' precious "thank yous"
Passive time-based fun --- R&D, PI, blueprint goodies, *new* industrial buildings that will replace moon mining. Maybe pause blueprint research...?
Anchoring --- Madness! Should it be blocked entirely? I say nay, but without having a substantial investment, limit number of anchored objects...please?
Balance --- Alpha is a terrific idea, perhaps a structured invitation reward system where they can gain extra ...say... ISK or LP (Think ESS-based system) as they progress through EVE's rich storyline. Promotions through ranks, rewards, and graduation being a free month of Omega state to see what they could be interested in! This will slightly mimic the style of system you have with The Scope's campaign and SoE's guilty pleasure. - Unique Alpha achievement system could be such: # Earn 2500 unused SP per new alpha that plays for a month (Towards Omega skills later in your EVE career) # Stay active with a corp sponser for at least a month and choose a 5 run cruiser, 20 run weapon, and 100 run ammo BPC set * Sponsers are a list of noob friendly teaching corps with tied interests for the capsuleer, such as: EVE-Uni, RvB, EVE Scouts and Pandemic Horde to name a few. # Train all skills to cap and receive a racial skin pack (automatically activated) or unique for new alpha state pilot graduates; 'the proud pod' skin...is that engraved with 'I Survived my first months of EVE'?
Alphas enthuasism ---Most alphas will be new or "How do EVE again?" players, where's their cookie? Something to say thank you for returning/trying the best MMO, but unique for alphas. 10% off first month sub? Nah. Some free skillbooks? Boooorrriiinnggg. I'm out of ideas, but I feel this should be addressed, even if declined.
And as for the 'sending in the alpha clones' problem, I have a few ideas: #1 - Temporary google authenticator key token restriction ---Your first month you cannot login without the token -- This will prevent me say, making 10 alphas to ......alpha the competition in FW. I realize this will hurt massive lemmings to jump into EVE, but it as far as I know, you cannot register for massive 'source keys'. On a side note, this may also bring more people into the game after learning about security for their new account. #2 - EVE App! Seriously, who doesn't have a cellphone or a friend with one? The app releases a key for an alpha clone, for you or a friend. Limit three or something per IEMI. #3 - Financial tie --- This one makes me cringe, however, by linking a card to an account it will definately help prevent one person from owning 'too many' accounts. #4 - Social media --- Not exactly sure how to limit this, as I know some people with many...MANY facebook accounts, perhaps someone smarter than I can think of something :) I'll just be the conduit to spark an idea.
+ 2 cents worth in words; -5 cents for editing while exhausted With those restrictions CCP is for sure not going to get a large new player base.
EVE is not a game for the massively online fearful, be calm.
As far as login jams that is a problem CCP would like to have, a large bustling growing player base. Let's give the new blood a chance, give them an unlimited time taste of EVE with reasonable minimal limitations so they can want to pay for the rest to grow their game play.
With the way prices have gone up some older accounts may come back as Alpha sell some stuff they have in hangars and plex back to Omega at least temporarily. Do you think that is a bad thing also?
|
Shaddn Arakh
Aliastra Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 18:47:42 -
[154] - Quote
Invite system for alpha clones
Aim: avoid creating thousands of throwaway alphas and scale the f2p aspect via the positive feedback loop.
Make Alphas invite-only, gift the invites to them for completing some objectives (Opportunities or in-game time spent) so that the more involved Alphas can invite buddies. Build on top of existing buddy system so that they can gain rewards. This will prevent flooding Eve with junk "trial-alphas" in November and December and attract more engaged players. |
Keno Skir
824
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 18:49:18 -
[155] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:I drink a moderate amount of wine and beer, never touch drugs, only idiots do that.
No mate, idiots talk about alcohol and other narcotics as if they are somehow different.
I'm kinda looking forward to the clusterf*ck that's coming. That follow up release basically said "We've heard the two things you guys really care about, and we'd like to be extremely evasive and talk around the subjects a bit without really saying anything. You're all welcome."
Gùï> 30 Day Buddy Trial + ISK Bonus & Starting Assistance <Gùï
Feel free to contact me regarding my posts, or my 30 Day EvE Buddy Trials \o/
|
Dread Red
16
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 19:02:52 -
[156] - Quote
Keno Skir wrote:Dracvlad wrote:I drink a moderate amount of wine and beer, never touch drugs, only idiots do that. No mate, idiots talk about alcohol and other narcotics as if they are somehow different. I'm kinda looking forward to the clusterf*ck that's coming. That follow up release basically said "We've heard the two things you guys really care about, and we'd like to be extremely evasive and talk around the subjects a bit without really saying anything. You're all welcome." Add to that to answer the concerns about Alphas ganking miners the follow up links to an article on reddit written by a "goon" talking about the need for more then 70 T1 dessies to take down a freighter thus we have nothing to worry about. CCP is still catering to the goons and the suicide gankers no matter what the facts say or concerns brought forth by members.
I look forward to the Alphas coming, perhaps it will finally wake up the industrialists to the fact CCP just wants us as targets, even targets for free accounts while we pay.
|
Ray Mitar
Ganksters Inc Drake Ashigaru
116
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 19:15:25 -
[157] - Quote
Will Alpha accounts get the Holiday gifts CCP distributes?
The good will from that would go a long way with new players and remind returners of the stuff that comes along with participation.
If we are positive this has a chance to be successful. We will need to keep CCP honest and tell them about exploits and abuses in a rapid fashion.
If we all pay attention and for once CCP listens this could be a really big win for their business and our pleasure. |
The Leopardess
Viziam Amarr Empire
69
|
Posted - 2016.09.04 21:24:34 -
[158] - Quote
High sec is already pretty unsafe for null people with the stupid merc wars I don't know anyone who would want to stay in highsec and torture themselves like that. Any corp over 10 members gets annihilated. |
Circumstantial Evidence
356
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 00:01:35 -
[159] - Quote
I think these comments fit this latest in a line of big changes to how EVE is played (thinking of skill trading,) and as a response to doom-sayers on most any topic. Ars Technica // Petr Opaskar wrote:GÇ£ No one ever gets the future right,GÇ¥ cosmologist Lawrence Krauss tells Herzog. We never got our flying cars and MoonbasesGÇöwe got the World Wide Web instead. The future is daunting because itGÇÖs something we havenGÇÖt thought of yet. ItGÇÖs not going to be a utopian interplanetary society of jetpacks, but itGÇÖs not going to be The Hunger Games either. Even someone who says GÇ£weGÇÖre all going to hell in a handbasket!GÇ¥ is trying to put the future into a tidy little box. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2340
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 05:46:40 -
[160] - Quote
Keno Skir wrote:Dracvlad wrote:I drink a moderate amount of wine and beer, never touch drugs, only idiots do that. No mate, idiots talk about alcohol and other narcotics as if they are somehow different. I'm kinda looking forward to the clusterf*ck that's coming. That follow up release basically said "We've heard the two things you guys really care about, and we'd like to be extremely evasive and talk around the subjects a bit without really saying anything. You're all welcome."
You are rather off topic mate and here is the reply I gave to yet another low life who replied with the same sort of thing in a Star Citizen organisation, you smoke pot or take a drug to get high, there are people who drink to get drunk, that is the same as what you just said, people like me drink a glass of wine to compliment a fine meal, that you are a barbarian who has no idea of the finer things in life is your issue not mine. Yes they are different, if people have the wit to treat them differently...
That said your next paragraph actually made sense because the key issues that people raised were actually ignored in this follow up. Yes it will be a cluster feck, I will be logging on in November to chat to mates every so often, but that is all I will be doing, I will not be undocking.
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
|
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DeuceMan
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 10:22:42 -
[161] - Quote
I feel the rights to have and use blueprints needs to remain with us "subscribers".
While I offer no complaints if one of my fellow subscribers "rolls into town" and offers a better price on goods, and takes a share of the profits, free to play folks should not be allowed to do the same. Some of us smaller corporations have invested time and money to obtain our list of blueprints for our industry efforts. This should be kept as a "privelidge" of subscribers, else some subscribers could feel "penalized".
Keeping ownership and use of blueprints to subscribers would provide the free players a logical consequence for not subscribing. Put simply, if they want to play a free character they will need to purchase their ships and equipment from a subscribing player (on the market). This would not greatly impede their "industrial careers" as they would still be free to station trade and buy and sell goods and transport said goods. They just would not be able to make them for themselves.
I think this might also help the free players more carefully consider what they are doing with their ships. They may think twice about "ganking a miner" if they know that their ability to procure replacement gear hinges on the player market (rather then their own ability to make their own gear).
Lastly, keeping blueprint ownership and use to subscribers may likely produce a new in game industry. Where free to play characters can "contract out to" subscribed players to manufacture needed goods. This will also likely change the dynamic of some corporations as joining free players may "depend" on the corporations subscribed players for gear. They furnish the mined materials, in return they get their requested gear.
I realise I'm just one man, and this is one man's opinion. I simply hope that my argument is logical.
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Keno Skir
833
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 11:46:18 -
[162] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Keno Skir wrote:Dracvlad wrote:I drink a moderate amount of wine and beer, never touch drugs, only idiots do that. No mate, idiots talk about alcohol and other narcotics as if they are somehow different. I'm kinda looking forward to the clusterf*ck that's coming. That follow up release basically said "We've heard the two things you guys really care about, and we'd like to be extremely evasive and talk around the subjects a bit without really saying anything. You're all welcome." You are rather off topic mate and here is the reply I gave to yet another low life who replied with the same sort of thing in a Star Citizen organisation, you smoke pot or take a drug to get high, there are people who drink to get drunk, that is the same as what you just said, people like me drink a glass of wine to compliment a fine meal, that you are a barbarian who has no idea of the finer things in life is your issue not mine. Yes they are different, if people have the wit to treat them differently... That said your next paragraph actually made sense because the key issues that people raised were actually ignored in this follow up. Yes it will be a cluster feck, I will be logging on in November to chat to mates every so often, but that is all I will be doing, I will not be undocking.
And what about the beer is that to compliment a fine kebab?
Gùï> 30 Day Buddy Trial + ISK Bonus & Starting Assistance <Gùï
Feel free to contact me regarding my posts, or my 30 Day EvE Buddy Trials \o/
|
Hilti Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
111
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 14:35:19 -
[163] - Quote
I am still not convinced this is what the game needs.
It feels like a complete screw over to loyal customers who paid their dues, you should really be focussing on those players rather than bastardising the system. You are making a lot of investment in this without really knowing it will work. Just what exactly are you trying to achieve with this? If you are trying to attract new players this is proven in many industries to be the wrong focus because of the cost. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2341
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 14:58:55 -
[164] - Quote
Keno Skir wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Keno Skir wrote:Dracvlad wrote:I drink a moderate amount of wine and beer, never touch drugs, only idiots do that. No mate, idiots talk about alcohol and other narcotics as if they are somehow different. I'm kinda looking forward to the clusterf*ck that's coming. That follow up release basically said "We've heard the two things you guys really care about, and we'd like to be extremely evasive and talk around the subjects a bit without really saying anything. You're all welcome." You are rather off topic mate and here is the reply I gave to yet another low life who replied with the same sort of thing in a Star Citizen organisation, you smoke pot or take a drug to get high, there are people who drink to get drunk, that is the same as what you just said, people like me drink a glass of wine to compliment a fine meal, that you are a barbarian who has no idea of the finer things in life is your issue not mine. Yes they are different, if people have the wit to treat them differently... That said your next paragraph actually made sense because the key issues that people raised were actually ignored in this follow up. Yes it will be a cluster feck, I will be logging on in November to chat to mates every so often, but that is all I will be doing, I will not be undocking. And what about the beer is that to compliment a fine kebab?
With hot chili sauce, of course...
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
|
Old Man Sam
Fishy Old Men in Space
2
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 20:48:20 -
[165] - Quote
I think I have created a solution for Alpha clone hoards mining in highsec, through a several step plan.
1.Remove the venture from Alpha clones. Now I know this sounds like blasphemy since mining is usually the first thing a new player does, but hear me out. Back when I started this game the logistics frigates had a mining bonus. If we give that bonus back, new players can mine at about 1/3rd the efficiency that a venture can (before logi frigate bonus), but with 1/10th the cargo hold thus requiring active mining, or jet cans. It also makes sense since Alpha's can only fly their race, and ore vessels are at best their own race, and and worst Gallente. (Which would be very unfair). Gives people a reason to upgrade to an Omega clone.
2.New highsec relic and data sites, called novice or some other cool name (doesnGÇÖt really matter). These sites will spawn only in highsec, and will be gated unlike other relic and data sites. The only ships that can enter are T1 frigates and below, perfect for new players. They should have the same or fractionally better loot tables than current highsec relic and data sites (which is trash anyway) but maybe have a few really rare drops that make it not worth for a veteran player to grind through in crappy T1 exploration frigates, but good enough for a new player to get lucky and get a bit of money.
3.Push new players into exploration instead of mining. Its more active, and generally more interesting than mining, and impossible to automate through botting.
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Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
742
|
Posted - 2016.09.06 07:08:31 -
[166] - Quote
So Alpha scrubs won't even be able to use small T2 guns? That sounds totally useless then. I think they should be able to use T2 guns of small and possibly medium size. And I say that as someone who will probably never play as an Alpha. As long as I play this game, my accounts will always be paid with money as they have been the past ~7 years. But people with T1 guns can never be competitive in pvp, the one thing that will hook up most people for a serious career in EVE. A player with limited experience trying pvp in T1 fits will most likely fail, and then fail again, and then give up. Allowing small but decently fitted ships is much more likely to give them experiences of success, making them want to play more and also get the bigger and more advanced ships.
I don't think many more people will engage in suicide ganking than before, the limiting resource is time. I'm not interested in ganking and most other players also aren't. Making it easier for me does not make it more likely that I'll do it. Those who are into ganking are already doing it.
So I don't see a huge influx of new actual players who start ganking. But I guess there is the danger that the active gankers that are already out there will be able to do much more damage more easily. So you should limit the number of alpha accounts per actual player... to one. And disallow rapid account recycling. If someone is as dedicated to EVE that they want multiple accounts, they should pay or plex. Alpha gameplay should be for newbies, casuals and returning players who aren't sure yet. With the limitations, playing as an Alpha will not be a tolerable long-term situation for any serious player anyway.
The easiest way to limit accounts would be requiring credit card info. But that would leave some groups of players out in the cold: Minors and many people from third-world countries or in general poor or financially troubled people that don't have a credit card and, being poor, would be the likeliest users of Alpha gameplay. So it would be preferable to find another way players can reliably authenticate themselves.
.
|
Drazz Caylen
Team-Pyro Industries
54
|
Posted - 2016.09.06 12:47:15 -
[167] - Quote
Related Devblog wrote:Probably the clearest point to emerge so far has been a request to limit simultaneous log on for Alphas. The concern here is obviously justified as swarms of free alts could potentially have any number of negative effects on the game. That said, thereGÇÖs significant complexity here, especially on the technical side. We are exploring options to address this and also consulting our security and customer support team. If trial limitation works on 1-per-computer, why can't you include the Alpha account state in this restriction as well? Were are these technical difficulties located? I doubt this is an isssue with reworking the data to not rely on a boolean variable (subscription 0 / 1), because Alphas are by definition not subscribed. I'm still curious as to why it supposedly won't work and where the technical difficulties are behind it. I'm not saying you're incompetent, and neither do I say I have a better solution. This is me searching to understand the given circumstances.
The other big question here is; What prevents you from agreeing that more than one Alpha account running simultaneously is bad and you're working hard to get this limitation going? We have 1 trial on a computer ONLY for good reasons. Why are you not saying the same about Alphas? What made you think running more than one Alpha (or running one Alpha beside many Omegas) is a good idea? Because if you thought it was a bad idea, then you clearly would have said "1 Alpha only" flat out the door.
It's this beating around the bush that has me concerned more than anything else.
Limiting Alphas to 1 per computer only is alleviating almost every issue brought to concern. Why are you not giving us the feeling and assuredness to be making this THE end goal? Instead I read you're "exploring options" as if the prevention of simultaneous Alpha logins could not be established and thus needs to be scrapped. This is the feeling I'm getting. This is the feeling many others get. This causes all this ruckus. One simply confirmation of you will bring the sigh of relief we ask for.
With the 1-per-computer limitation, Alpha accounts become just as much an "issue" as Trial accounts are. And to the fearmongers; tell me where the masses of illegally multiboxing Trial account Gank and mining fleets are? Yeah I thought so. |
HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
1820
|
Posted - 2016.09.06 12:55:43 -
[168] - Quote
Drazz Caylen wrote: The other big question here is; What prevents you from agreeing that more than one Alpha account running simultaneously is bad and you're working hard to get this limitation going? We have 1 trial on a computer ONLY for good reasons. Why are you not saying the same about Alphas? What made you think running more than one Alpha (or running one Alpha beside many Omegas) is a good idea? Because if you thought it was a bad idea, then you clearly would have said "1 Alpha only" flat out the door.
Because it is too easy to avoid this restriction. There are many ways. :) |
Drazz Caylen
Team-Pyro Industries
54
|
Posted - 2016.09.06 13:07:11 -
[169] - Quote
HandelsPharmi wrote:Because it is too easy to avoid this restriction. There are many ways. :) You missed the point. It's about if it is against the "rules" or not. Not making a rule based on "oh well the community will break it anyway" is laughably stupid, and if you base your entire argument on it, you're not putting yourself into the best of light either.
Saying there are ways doesn't mean these way are also always successful to work, since CCP has the legal right to scan our computer for hardware and software solutions which are circumventing these rules. If you think VMs and VPNs help you stay invisible and make the servers think you are all logging in from different locations, you're naive. The multi-input from ISboxer was banned for a reason too, and successfully so.
If those ways you talk about are so handy-dandy available, then why are we not seeing swarms of trial account with Ventures swirling through rocks and suicide Catalysts tickling down ships? Really, I think you're talking out your backside. Not every "what-if" is a notion worth contemplating to all it's extent. |
Warlord Balrog
303rd X-SOLDIER
4
|
Posted - 2016.09.06 13:33:31 -
[170] - Quote
Drazz Caylen wrote:If trial limitation works on 1-per-computer, why can't you include the Alpha account state in this restriction as well? Were are these technical difficulties located? I doubt this is an isssue with reworking the data to not rely on a boolean variable (subscription 0 / 1), because Alphas are by definition not subscribed. I'm still curious as to why it supposedly won't work and where the technical difficulties are behind it. I'm not saying you're incompetent, and neither do I say I have a better solution. This is me searching to understand the given circumstances.
The other big question here is; What prevents you from agreeing that more than one Alpha account running simultaneously is bad and you're working hard to get this limitation going? We have 1 trial on a computer ONLY for good reasons. Why are you not saying the same about Alphas? What made you think running more than one Alpha (or running one Alpha beside many Omegas) is a good idea? Because if you thought it was a bad idea, then you clearly would have said "1 Alpha only" flat out the door.
It's this beating around the bush that has me concerned more than anything else.
Limiting Alphas to 1 per computer only is alleviating almost every issue brought to concern. Why are you not giving us the feeling and assuredness to be making this THE end goal? Instead I read you're "exploring options" as if the prevention of simultaneous Alpha logins could not be established and thus needs to be scrapped. This is the feeling I'm getting. This is the feeling many others get. This causes all this ruckus. One simply confirmation of you will bring the sigh of relief we ask for.
With the 1-per-computer limitation, Alpha accounts become just as much an "issue" as Trial accounts are. And to the fearmongers; tell me where the masses of illegally multiboxing Trial account Gank and mining fleets are? Yeah I thought so.
Trial limitations can be circumvented a number of ways, none of which I will list. And by making alphas work like trials you will be preventing most of the player base that cannot afford subs occasionally the joy of the game. Will that make people pay? Doubtful. Will that make more people give up on the game? Probably. Will it improve the game? It'll will make abuse slightly more annoying, yes, but doubtful in many aspects.
Running alphas and omegas from the same user prevents the alphas from socializing. One could simply pay for one account (in a marauder for example) running level 4s with their alphas sitting in station safely gaining LP and ISK from the kills the marauder is doing. In the same token, alphas won't be able to run with major alliances. So your newbros won't be able to play with you, only other newbros... who will teach them? The person with a laptop googling "how to eve" every 5 minutes when a new 'event' occurs.
The only limitation alphas should have as far as any of these concerns is preventing someone from making 40 toons that are completely free and ruining someone who has less than five accounts' day. For example, a solo mission runner in a shiny ship getting alpha ganked out of his mission by FREE players. Another fine example is a small multiboxing group (Compact players as I like to call them) that are out mining could also have their day ruined. Many other examples should come to mind now, and this is detriment to EVE's existance if they are not addressed. |
|
Drazz Caylen
Team-Pyro Industries
54
|
Posted - 2016.09.06 14:02:15 -
[171] - Quote
Warlord Balrog wrote:1) Trial limitations can be circumvented a number of ways, none of which I will list. And by making alphas work like trials you will be preventing most of the player base that cannot afford subs occasionally the joy of the game.
2) Running alphas and omegas from the same user prevents the alphas from socializing. One could simply pay for one account (in a marauder for example) running level 4s with their alphas sitting in station safely gaining LP and ISK from the kills the marauder is doing. In the same token, alphas won't be able to run with major alliances. So your newbros won't be able to play with you, only other newbros... who will teach them? The person with a laptop googling "how to eve" every 5 minutes when a new 'event' occurs.
3) The only limitation alphas should have as far as any of these concerns is preventing someone from making 40 toons that are completely free and ruining someone who has less than five accounts' day. 1) I never said they should replace Trials. CCP themselves said they'll be reworking Trials, so a Trial =/= Alpha. I only said Alphas should have the same login limitation which Trials have. To date someone yet has to point out to me a gross abuse of Trial accounts seen in the game which puts Eve to a detriment.
2) I'm not sure I understand what you say, because it looks like you're contradicting with your own point 1. Why shouldn't alphas be able to socialize when limited to 1 Alpha per computer? That would mean Trials cannot socialize either, and those are currently time limited, whereas Alphas are not. As to who will teach them... is this a serious question? It will just work the same as with Trial accounts. Trial account players still are taught by others how to play the game. Forgive me, what are you trying to say again? I'm really at a loss here.
3) Which is exactly why I said limit Alphas to 1 login per computer. And which contradicts with your very own point 1, because as you said yourself "can be circumvented in a number of ways". If you so firmly believe CCP is outwitted by laymen's tech left and right, why even bother? I still see it as a staggering hyperbole. Which is probably good, so it can rain more permabans later, including the subscribed accounts related to the machine where the abuse took place. |
Kilo Kodiak
Discoverings Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2016.09.07 19:00:04 -
[172] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Kilo Kodiak wrote:I have a simple question ///
P I?
Plante interaction as a alfa clone?
if you have like 5 million skill points in P I and it was showing to other player can mine why can not the do P I ? stop doing anything. read the dev blog. there is a list of skills that are available to alpha clones. thats what they can use. PI is not on that list.
why do you limit yourself????
why will you allow others to limit you more than you are now?
current the system allow trail account to P >I> which is mining.. should we cut that away?
ccp place the design and the codes... but we are EVE.. we should learn and tell them what we want and not.
EVE is us. |
Grodd2
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.09.07 19:38:06 -
[173] - Quote
As the condition in High sec is now, there is so much competition for resources that there is little good mining opportunities for a great portion of every day. If there is an influx of new players with mining goals, it will make the situation even worse. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3047
|
Posted - 2016.09.07 21:08:19 -
[174] - Quote
So long as multiple log ins are possible this is going to hurt
Citadel worm hole tax
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
3047
|
Posted - 2016.09.07 21:09:57 -
[175] - Quote
Kilo Kodiak wrote:Kusum Fawn wrote:Kilo Kodiak wrote:I have a simple question ///
P I?
Plante interaction as a alfa clone?
if you have like 5 million skill points in P I and it was showing to other player can mine why can not the do P I ? stop doing anything. read the dev blog. there is a list of skills that are available to alpha clones. thats what they can use. PI is not on that list. why do you limit yourself???? why will you allow others to limit you more than you are now? current the system allow trail account to P >I> which is mining.. should we cut that away? ccp place the design and the codes... but we are EVE.. we should learn and tell them what we want and not. EVE is us.
Because you can make a lot more with 100 free pi alts than 100 level 4 venture alts and with a lot less effort
Citadel worm hole tax
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3561
|
Posted - 2016.09.07 22:17:54 -
[176] - Quote
Grodd2 wrote:As the condition in High sec is now, there is so much competition for resources that there is little good mining opportunities for a great portion of every day. If there is an influx of new players with mining goals, it will make the situation even worse. Like or dislike alpha clones this statement of yours is totally incorrect. Just go a couple of jumps away from Jita and you will find untouched belts just before downtime. Go outside Caldari space and you will find buckets of ore. And refining it makes it quite easy to move. It may not be 'ideal' but it's there and easy to access, and still perfectly good. |
violator2k5
Crescent Nova
18
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 11:51:14 -
[177] - Quote
ArmyOfMe wrote:First page again \o/
Oh, and great stuff. I do hope this will help to rejuvenate the playerbase. Wish it had happend sooner, but i still love this idea.
rejuvenate? lol
I'm more curious about the increase in potential isk selling spammers this may bring. |
Belinda HwaFang
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
66
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 14:42:24 -
[178] - Quote
Apologies in advance if this has already been covered by another post, and sorry I didn't have time to read the full thread.
Does creation of one of these Alpha clone accounts require the customer to hand over a credit card number? Or is it just an email address required?
If it is the latter, is CCP ready for the massive increase in EULA breaking behaviour and "hacking" that is going to occur?
If you need a reference: I recommend you study the original Planetside, which removed the credit card info as a requirement to creating free accounts circa 2006 I believe it was, leading to a great influx of players *and* causing the game to be so full of EULA violations that eventually legitimate players were starting to be forced out.
Just make sure you've done the cost-benefit analysis here CCP, the strain on your GM/Security teams is going to increase like never before if you don't tie these accounts to credit cards. |
HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
1820
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 15:06:07 -
[179] - Quote
Belinda HwaFang wrote:Apologies in advance if this has already been covered by another post, and sorry I didn't have time to read the full thread.
Does creation of one of these Alpha clone accounts require the customer to hand over a credit card number? Or is it just an email address required?
If it is the latter, is CCP ready for the massive increase in EULA breaking behaviour and "hacking" that is going to occur?
If you need a reference: I recommend you study the original Planetside, which removed the credit card info as a requirement to creating free accounts circa 2006 I believe it was, leading to a great influx of players *and* causing the game to be so full of EULA violations that eventually legitimate players were starting to be forced out.
Just make sure you've done the cost-benefit analysis here CCP, the strain on your GM/Security teams is going to increase like never before if you don't tie these accounts to credit cards.
I have around 40 accounts, and non of them has ever been subscribed by real cash, PLEX only. Cause I have bougth game trading cards (in past) and converted them to 2 PLEX...
If you are violating the EULA, CCP is going to ban ALL your accounts. |
Belinda HwaFang
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
66
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 17:15:29 -
[180] - Quote
HandelsPharmi wrote:Belinda HwaFang wrote:Apologies in advance if this has already been covered by another post, and sorry I didn't have time to read the full thread.
Does creation of one of these Alpha clone accounts require the customer to hand over a credit card number? Or is it just an email address required?
If it is the latter, is CCP ready for the massive increase in EULA breaking behaviour and "hacking" that is going to occur?
If you need a reference: I recommend you study the original Planetside, which removed the credit card info as a requirement to creating free accounts circa 2006 I believe it was, leading to a great influx of players *and* causing the game to be so full of EULA violations that eventually legitimate players were starting to be forced out.
Just make sure you've done the cost-benefit analysis here CCP, the strain on your GM/Security teams is going to increase like never before if you don't tie these accounts to credit cards. I have around 40 accounts, and non of them has ever been subscribed by real cash, PLEX only. Cause I have bougth game trading cards (in past) and converted them to 2 PLEX... If you are violating the EULA, CCP is going to ban ALL your accounts.
That is assuming they know the superset of all your accounts, past and future. Yes, they can IP block you, but IP addresses aren't an authenticated address, so those with the knowhow/cash to use a subscription hacking service will be fine.
|
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Relyt Remarc
Jarlhettur's Drop
1
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 20:36:03 -
[181] - Quote
Does this new clone state stuff mean that an alt on my subbed account won't be able to fly anything T2 any more? Will any character on a subbed account have omega status regardless of whether or not the training Que is active? |
Drazz Caylen
Team-Pyro Industries
56
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 22:42:06 -
[182] - Quote
Belinda HwaFang wrote:1.) That is assuming they know the superset of all your accounts, past and future. Yes, they can IP block you, but IP addresses aren't an authenticated address, so those with the knowhow/cash to use a subscription hacking service will be able to play a game of cat and mouse with the infosec team at CCP.
2.) To answer your point that it's already possible to get somewhat anonymised accounts, I was under the impression that GTC sales were stopped some time ago, so this channel of anonymous accounts I believe has already been closed.
3.) If the rate at which players are breaking the EULA is so great that your incident response team can not handle them/ban them quickly enough, you have a big problem.
4.) If you need a reference: I recommend you study the original Planetside, which removed the credit card info as a requirement to creating free accounts circa 2006 I believe it was, leading to a great influx of players *and* causing the game to be so full of EULA violations that eventually legitimate players were starting to be forced out.
1.) IP blocks are an old hat with a long beard, buried alongside 14.4k modems. Even when broadband internet came around anyone using DSL had a dynamic IP address (unless it was a business product) and laughed in the face of any IP block. And thinking a simple VM + VPN combination makes someone immune... well, let them have their gleeful belief. Makes the bans even so sweeter.
2.) The only way nowadays to get an "anonymous" account is to never log into your account page and never subscribe to the game, paying for gametime since before your trial was over with PLEX. If you run other accounts through the same machine however, you can be certain of CCP knowing this. Since trials are limited and plex requires money from one end or the other, I'm certain CCP will look into new account registration and collection of data once Alpha Clones are available.
3.) A bit about eve history; we had our fair issues with bots of all kinds many years ago. Chat spam, mining bots, RMTs, whatsoever. We also had a limitation of 1500 simultaneous Trial accounts which sometimes was reached. I might still even have a screenshot of it. Overnight, all that stopped. CCP implemented something on their security end (it wasn't plex who put the RMTs out of business right off the bat). Ever since, RMT and "gold spam" virtually disappeared and the Trial limitation has never been hit again as far as I can recall. Another thing is, I distinctly remember cases where if a player got banned, not just the account which violated was banned but all other accounts associated with the point of login as well. This taught some well needed lessons to folks who thought they could smack and abuse on trial in their past time and be safe on their main accounts not logged at the time.
4.) Planetside 2 learned from it. If the map is full or during any other queue, subscription Members always have priority access.
|
Circumstantial Evidence
357
|
Posted - 2016.09.09 00:28:21 -
[183] - Quote
Relyt Remarc wrote:Does this new clone state stuff mean that an alt on my subbed account won't be able to fly anything T2 any more? Will any character on a subbed account have omega status regardless of whether or not the training Que is active? Clone states will be the same for all characters on the account. If you subscribe an account by any method, all characters on that account will work just like today. This change will give currently inactive, un-subbed accounts a chance to log in (on any character in the un-subbed account) and see EVE, with reduced abilities. |
DefaultGuy Redshirt
Dutch East Querious Company Asteria Concord.
0
|
Posted - 2016.09.09 13:22:06 -
[184] - Quote
Personally I think that I would login up to 5 alpha clones to go mining or scouting or whatever. the ability to simultaneously logon multiple legitimate accounts should be allowed.
As it stands today.. only very active players can afford to plex or buy more than one account. This means that they have a permanent advantage over semi serious casual players such as myself.
I think that this ability to have multiple, explicitly allowed, simultaneously active accounts is a good thing.
I think that the new (and even not so new) player experience is still the worst in the world. This is ultimately a social game today. Without that it would collapse quickly. The new player vs environment experience needs a major overhaul. Might I recommend missions with cinematic experiences..
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1476
|
Posted - 2016.09.09 14:48:20 -
[185] - Quote
I hope they limit concurrent alpha clones even though some people may cheat to try to get around it. That is not a reason to just destroy the game by letting hordes of meaningless alpha clones in.
Also unless I missed it, it is still unclear whether this will kill the value of pi for paid accounts. What happens for pi factories already set up by an omega that stops paying and goes alpha clone? Will the factories offline like modules?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Morgals
Sturmgrenadier Inc Digital Vendetta
21
|
Posted - 2016.09.09 17:02:33 -
[186] - Quote
Why is there only target painting one?
This makes using a target painter not as helpfull as it should. THis should be bumped to 3.
This is especially true a painting is not as detrimental to the other fleet as jams or damps.
Looking for a mature, adult gaming community that has been active in EvE since 2004?Recruitment is open!
Come join our public channel and get to know us.
SG-Recruiting
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Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
21
|
Posted - 2016.09.09 20:48:36 -
[187] - Quote
DefaultGuy Redshirt wrote:Might I recommend missions with cinematic experiences.. And that you can stick where the sun don't shine, You may run 2 a week but for some of us there would be no escape key left on the keyboard ....... keep that blizzard crap outta the game. |
Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1806
|
Posted - 2016.09.10 14:49:35 -
[188] - Quote
Always hated cut scenes and loved half life for not having any. **** happening in real time is way more exciting |
Ray Mitar
Ganksters Inc Drake Ashigaru
122
|
Posted - 2016.09.10 16:41:57 -
[189] - Quote
One of the things that separates EVE from other games is the single shard shared real time (except tidi) experience we are all subjected to.
In game breaks for cinematics would be jarring to say the least. Making them a part of missions while in station is fine, you are docked up. Making them available when you interact with billboards in space also fine, you take the chance when you disconnect from the other capsuleers around you to watch, your choice.
During game play as an automatic part of a mission or event you are flying I think would not be good. |
Digital Species X101
Los Santos Genomics
0
|
Posted - 2016.09.10 17:56:22 -
[190] - Quote
Hopefully new Jove and Drifter ships will be added soon. The Minmatar ships are not aligned with the thinking of their race and practices. As a law student, it'll be great to see CCP create a ingame court system with the participation of all races, including Concord to delve into political agendas of New Eden, mirroring external sandbox issues. I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to create a structure for court proceedings only, with real time voice or chat box involvement and a avatar visual. Blowing things up can be fun, but EVE Online is more than that. It's sophisticated and gives the players a glimpse into the future of technology and industry. for example, the transfer of consciousness. As John F. Kennedy said " The human mind is the greatest computer of all." It will happen and when it does the inhabitants of New Eden should be prepared for the political battle. There are numerous issues that can be debated in this new court, yet one stands out... the transfer of consciousness. If an individual is convicted for 33 counts of murder, should his consciousness be transferred into a new clone after execution, to face the count of the other 32 murders? What about the transfer of his/her consciousness into animals as a conviction? The dialogue of EVE Online is just as important as blowing things up. Some people believe that you win wars by killing the citizens, because killing the soldiers will only make martyrs. Wars are won in the minds of the people. |
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Belinda HwaFang
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
66
|
Posted - 2016.09.11 12:00:05 -
[191] - Quote
One final comment from me: in a game that has already alienated those who prefer to play with one account logged in at a time, this is somewhat the final straw.
I feel like this is CCP telling me:
"You really should have n accounts logged in at all times, see, silly! That wormhole over there, you could have scouted that with account number y, and you didn't, so here, get ganked you numbskull! HTFU and install ISBoxer you neanderthal!"
Well personally I don't find this aspect a welcome change at all. |
oiukhp Muvila
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
71
|
Posted - 2016.09.12 20:43:09 -
[192] - Quote
Belinda HwaFang wrote:One final comment from me: in a game that has already alienated those who prefer to play with one account logged in at a time.....
Well, they did that when they decided to heavily promote team gameplay when many people either preferred or needed to do many of those things by themselves at times.
Required Cyno for Captials instead of solo jumping to sun at some random but probe-able location. Gate Jumps easily within range of single tackler, so any jump at un-scouted choke points in essentially suicide.
You need two accounts to solo move any jump capable ship. You need two accounts to solo move anything of value in Null Sec, Low Sec, and frequently Hi Sec.
The fact that you need alts to do many things in this game is why there is such a problem with them. Remove or lessen the need for them and the problem with them will probably go away, but with a reduced Income for CCP due to less active accounts.
-Make it so you can Solo move jump capable ships by jumping within some range of the star. Maybe even have a unique signature appear briefly to allow balanced probing.
-Increase the range at which you appear at the destination gate on gate jumps to give a greater chance to get pass blockades.
Allowing jump capable ships to move with a single pilot with balanced risk and reducing the effectiveness of gate camps could go a long way to reduce the need for multiple logins at one time.
With enough changes and enough new players CCP could restrict all to a single login, if that is what most of the community wants.
Either accept than anyone can have 3-5 clients logged in with all the advantages, or change the game to remove or limit the need then restrict everyone to a single login.
Trying to limit logins and promote the game design that requires it will only push people away from the game, and **** off those who want more logged in characters but can't afford it. |
Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
594
|
Posted - 2016.09.13 10:08:00 -
[193] - Quote
There was a similar problem in a game called Dofus that I played for a long time.
It used to be ok, most like me ended up with a couple of accounts for professions as you were limited to 3 per character.
But then it started getting silly with some guys ending up with 8 accounts for one reason..dungeon runs.
Call it what you want, selfishness/efficiency whatever, but they socialised with nobody then because they just ran them day in day out and sold the high end mats and items they produced.
Ofc a lot started following suit and before you knew it any new players could never get on a dungeon run, even in the lower classed one because everyone had their own team, or 2 guys had 4 characters each so they wouldn't get their runs spoiled by a nub :/
Then another problem crept in somehow, you'd see someone outside the Goball Dungeon and let him join you as you could easily solo it, but then you would get pestered day in day out for more runs until you blocked them and became as anti social as everyone else...
After a long time of this the makers recognised it as an issue and tried to mitigate it with a system similar to our opportunities. But in Dofus you earned points, and as we all know, points make prizes, or in this case companions who would fight alongside you.
They did that and made the dungeons scaling as well so that if you had 2 accounts, you would also have 2 companions and the dungeon npc's would be half of what they would be for a full team of 8, in a turn based game you basically had 4 fighters instead of 2....This was all because guys who couldn't afford 8 accounts could never compete again, plus new guys were basically never going to catch up under the old system and get to run the elite dungeons. Yes you could join a Guild but you still had the same issues.
They also gave a single character the ability to level every profession, just to try and level the playing field a bit.
Did it work, imo nope. I subbed a couple of months ago to see what was happening simply because of the changes in here. To be met by a dying server, strangely with the same old faces who were a big cause of it just standing around moaning about the game and server being dead and the market which was dead, the forums are full of the same complaints as well. There's basically only 2 servers left with any semblance of life in them now, but they too seem to struggle now and then.
Does all this have anything to do with EVE? Not really I suppose, apart from the fact that this isn't the only game that struggles with what to do about multiboxing accounts. It's probably an issue in a lot of these types of games, and no, I don't have an answer.
Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..."
" They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."
Welcome to EVE.
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Jamella Codetera
Storm Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2016.09.15 02:26:06 -
[194] - Quote
So in the follow-up it still hasnt been discussed. Industry. Dont ruin industr,y just dont. Just do not. I do not know how to stress this that much. Do not give Alphas the right to create Stuff at the same cost as Omegas, this ruins Industry for Old & New players as Alpha-Farms WILL BECOME the only cost-efficent way to produce stuff that is produceable by Alphas.
I really dont know what happend to CCP in the past years, it seems like you have to setup a reddit account to be heard - that hurts. |
Kaleic Karrif
rock shot industries Phoenix Company Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 12:47:24 -
[195] - Quote
I applaud your decision to add alpha state to the game for some sort of Free to Play to the game. However I do have 1 concern with this.
I feel that the limitations may be too restrictive to be profitable for CCP and all around advantageous for the normal f2p gamer.
So while I understand CCP's approach to getting new and returning players back into the game and the goal is for a full subscription.
While this is a solid premise at the end of the day it would be more profitable to set in place a hard limitation to 1 Alpha account per Hardware Mac address, similar to what DayBreakGames did for their TrueBox servers where 1 Machine can only run 1 Client per connection, however multiple machines could be used. This would prevent free accounts from multi boxing and farming,
However I believe the ability for free accounts to reach a state of income where they can PLEX their account would increase the number of PLEX purchased thus increasing the overall income benefit of going F2P model. I am hugely against micro-purchases as I am sure the entire eve community is.
I believe that the ability to fly Mining Barges and use tech 1 strip miners would be sufficient income capability for players to farm up to earn a plex and utilizing a software similar to the TrueBox I mentioned earlier which blocks multiple accounts from running based on Machine Media Access Control address (MAC) would prevent this system from being exploited.
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Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1904
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 12:54:45 -
[196] - Quote
virtual machines laughs at the MAC address limitations
Art of Explosions
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Kaleic Karrif
rock shot industries Phoenix Company Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 13:20:38 -
[197] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:virtual machines laughs at the MAC address limitations Virtual Machines have a hard time running the game and can be blocked by client port restrictions. |
Jamella Codetera
Storm Technologies
2
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 13:43:53 -
[198] - Quote
You want a guide how to plex ur account exlusively with Alphas? Setup Industry farms -> Profit. |
Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1907
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 13:50:17 -
[199] - Quote
Kaleic Karrif wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:virtual machines laughs at the MAC address limitations Virtual Machines have a hard time running the game and can be blocked by client port restrictions.
And how would that be separated from Omega accounts multi logging?
Art of Explosions
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Kaleic Karrif
rock shot industries Phoenix Company Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 14:25:25 -
[200] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Kaleic Karrif wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:virtual machines laughs at the MAC address limitations Virtual Machines have a hard time running the game and can be blocked by client port restrictions. And how would that be separated from Omega accounts multi logging? It wouldn't it would affect all accounts, as Multiplexing is a breach of the eula, if they plan to allow multi boxing without multiple input manipulation they could do account flags which would remove the truebox / anti boxing restriction |
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Kaleic Karrif
rock shot industries Phoenix Company Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 14:26:37 -
[201] - Quote
Jamella Codetera wrote:You want a guide how to plex ur account exlusively with Alphas? Setup Industry farms -> Profit.
read the list of allowable skills, they do not have enough indy to be able to plex.
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Jamella Codetera
Storm Technologies
5
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 15:33:00 -
[202] - Quote
Buddy, i did read the list. Im currently sitting in the process of planing how exactly i will abuse the system as hard as possibile because CCP does seem to close their eyes upon this.
as a pure industrialist id tell you, its not enough with 1 alpha char, its easy with 2 alpha accounts tho. You realise you can copy/research and manufacture a VERY large range of products? The only limitation is T2 Production
More alpha accounts = more profit. Id say a max. of 2 Accs which i wouldve to login 1-2 twice a month would already earn a plex.
You can produce at the same cost as omegas, just sit down for a second, drink a tea and think of it.
And now answer me, why would you produce, research or copy something on an Omega Account if its possibile on an Alpha Account?
The range of products they can manufacture is HUGE. The range of BPOs they can RESEARCH and COPY? ALL. I didnt find a BPO which an alpha account cant research and copy. Even if there are a few, well, they are only a few.
Erebus, Copy? Alpha Account. Erebus Research? Alpha Account.
Even if youre a pure T2 Industrialist, youd still need copys to invent from. Guess what - its cheaper if you create alpha accounts to do so.. <_<
Its the very first time since i ever heard of eve that i sincerly think CCP is doing a huge mistake. This really has to be brought to CCPs attention
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h4kun4
Gang Bang Pandas Snuffed Out
66
|
Posted - 2016.09.23 11:09:21 -
[203] - Quote
Yes some higher Blueprints should be Limited to Omega, maybe like "You can only produce what you can use" for Alphas. So a Caldari Alpha might Produce and Copy and Research only Caracals, Blackbird, Ospreys and Moas and smaller, while a Minmatar only does Stabbers, Ruptures, Scythes and Bellicoses. Omegas should then be able Produce, copy or research whatever they want regardless of what they can use. |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2927
|
Posted - 2016.09.23 14:53:57 -
[204] - Quote
Don't think production is a problem at all ...copy/research was never a bottleneck, and (T1) production needs minerals to produce from and a buyer. The market will have the final word on profitability as production is no ISK faucet, but an ISK sink (fees, taxes).
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1480
|
Posted - 2016.09.23 15:26:26 -
[205] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Don't think production is a problem at all ...copy/research was never a bottleneck, and (T1) production needs minerals to produce from and a buyer. The market will have the final word on profitability as production is no ISK faucet, but an ISK sink (fees, taxes).
1) Researched blueprints sell for more than non-researched blueprints. And
2) blue print copies still sell for something.
As long as that is the case alpha farms will be profitable right? The value of these activities will be driven down to zero.
What will this mean?
It will mean people who used to do this on a paid accounts to make profits will have a part of their game play taken away. And they have less reason to play.
Will it mean more new players become interested in eve? I think we are kidding ourselves if we think new players will be setting up these farms. It will be veteran players who likely have an unhealthy attachment to the game. They will do this for a while but then even they will burn out. But in the mean time another profitable aspect of industry in eve will be destroyed.
Based on CCP's vague answers I think they really should think this through. Alphas are a great idea but CCP hasn't yet indicated they will make even obvious attempts to preserve subscriptions.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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the Infenro
Edge of Existence
8
|
Posted - 2016.09.29 06:17:34 -
[206] - Quote
I have taken my time before posting my thoughts on Alpha clones. 1st of I am a player who has run 8+ accounts at one time and currently have over 100m sp, without any assistance macroGÇÖs etc.. from personal experience you can run upto about 3 effectively in pvp or pve (wormholes etc), maybe 4 if you had something like a falcon on standby. When mining you can increases as much as like provided you can keep up with all the clicking & hualing. (with rocks in hs that takes about 10 mining toons + 1 boaster + and maybe 1-2 hauler(s)GǪ and thatGÇÖs fairly well the limit. And thatGÇÖs pushing it. So basicly (itGÇÖs hard to run more than 4 accounts unless youGÇÖre doing mining or transport activities).
With that being said two big issues that concern me about alpha accounts
A) The ability to upgrade to plexGÇÖs within a reasonable amount of playtime when maxed alpha cones. I donGÇÖt see many good methods for these players to earn isk if they so desired. For example you can prob run up to level 3 missions, class 2 wormholes if you multibox (if you even can). You would be locked out of incursions due to fleet requirements. And you are locked out of anything near effective mining. While the frigates arenGÇÖt horrid... They are still slow and work best for gas harvesting (which is blocked) so besides nulsec or DED site rats? Which would be hard to kill? How are you going to gain isk?
With these limitations it is extremely hard to scale alpha clones. Which is fine. However itGÇÖs also extremely hard to get out of that stats without playing (20 to 40)+ hr/week maybe more depending on luck just to try plexing not counting ships etc. My concern here is that an established player might not want to spend that long to try get back to an omega clone so he can get back to a lot of the content he would normally do. This could detract from people trying to resub into the game. After all a to CCP a plex earns them more money than a sub. Regardless of how you scale it (without specials running); moreover, the challenge of re-plexing could detract from people sticking to the game even if itGÇÖs now f2p.
B) On the flip side as many have raised is the concern of Suicide ganks in highsec increasing. The more alpha accounts you can have logged in the less people you need to pull off a gank (provided they are able to run mutable clients). As well as making massive alt farms etc.
the limits to skills and the extreme truncation of industrial activities to basically ineffective mining and ineffective t1 ship construction. I donGÇÖt see a reason to try scaling this. again ganking could be an issue but from personal experience its hard to manage over 3 accounts in pvp situations ganking you can increase that a bit but still have a very small time window to pull it off.
My personal recommendation would be to allow a player to have around 3 maybe 4 alpha accounts logged in at one time. While this would make ganking potentially easier, it would give never players the opportunity to earn isk if they are willing to work for it, and let them upgrade or re-upgrade to omega accounts
Another thought would be that if an account had an omega stats before (IE they have paid) maybe allow for more than 1 or two alphas to be logged in? And increases it to 3-5 range. As a reward for being a responsible player.
Another though is I have seen some people say that if your sec status is to low disable red actions. This might seem to be an effective counter; however, what would stop someone from making their 155th account? I think that it would be rather pointless |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3615
|
Posted - 2016.09.29 08:13:36 -
[207] - Quote
the Infenro wrote: With these limitations it is extremely hard to scale alpha clones. Which is fine. However itGÇÖs also extremely hard to get out of that stats without playing (20 to 40)+ hr/week maybe more depending on luck just to try plexing not counting ships etc. My concern here is that an established player might not want to spend that long to try get back to an omega clone so he can get back to a lot of the content he would normally do. This could detract from people trying to resub into the game. After all a to CCP a plex earns them more money than a sub. Regardless of how you scale it (without specials running); moreover, the challenge of re-plexing could detract from people sticking to the game even if itGÇÖs now f2p.
You have failed to grasp one important detail. You don't have to earn your plex in a single month. You don't even have to earn it in a single month once you go Omega. Earn first plex in 3 months. One month omega one month as alpha earn second plex gaining some omega skills. Sure they deactivate when you go alpha but they stay trained, they don't magically vanish resetting progress. Another 2 months repeating same cycle. Now in a good place to stay plexed.
Also as soon as you are in a mining barge, which from full alpha clone to omega is mere days you earn a lot better. Same as into a BC, you might even find a newbie incursion group that will run VG's with T1 BC's, not sure if any exist but they can be run at that level. BC's mission better also. So mere days after you go omega your income can dramatically jump.
The ability to plex your account is also not a right. |
the Infenro
Edge of Existence
8
|
Posted - 2016.09.29 19:42:11 -
[208] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:the Infenro wrote: With these limitations it is extremely hard to scale alpha clones. Which is fine. However itGÇÖs also extremely hard to get out of that stats without playing (20 to 40)+ hr/week maybe more depending on luck just to try plexing not counting ships etc. My concern here is that an established player might not want to spend that long to try get back to an omega clone so he can get back to a lot of the content he would normally do. This could detract from people trying to resub into the game. After all a to CCP a plex earns them more money than a sub. Regardless of how you scale it (without specials running); moreover, the challenge of re-plexing could detract from people sticking to the game even if itGÇÖs now f2p.
You have failed to grasp one important detail. You don't have to earn your plex in a single month. You don't even have to earn it in a single month once you go Omega. Earn first plex in 3 months. One month omega one month as alpha earn second plex gaining some omega skills. Sure they deactivate when you go alpha but they stay trained, they don't magically vanish resetting progress. Another 2 months repeating same cycle. Now in a good place to stay plexed. Also as soon as you are in a mining barge, which from full alpha clone to omega is mere days you earn a lot better. Same as into a BC, you might even find a newbie incursion group that will run VG's with T1 BC's, not sure if any exist but they can be run at that level. BC's mission better also. So mere days after you go omega your income can dramatically jump. The ability to plex your account is also not a right.
I wrote this more highlight it from an experienced player's point of view who is returning to the game after a brake since they can now "play for free" vs's a brand new player (I did say with max sp aplha's) and that this may reduce retention of these players and primarily those who have played for a lot before if it's hard extremely hard for them to break into that entry barrier they may just walk away again instead of getting involved back in the game. and I do agree that plexing is not a right. although i do believe tho it should be reasonable attainable. |
the Infenro
Edge of Existence
8
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Posted - 2016.09.30 04:44:34 -
[209] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Headline: Eve is Free to Play. People telling their friends about it: free to play. Pricetag on Steam: free to play. I'm pointing out that words have meanings, and right now those words are free to play.
Look, I get that there are justifications and clarifications and such to be made - but right now those are taking a strong back seat to the words free to play. GǪ
I'm totally down with a free to play Eve Online, but this move is branded poorly (unlimited trial) and doesn't go far enough to be actually effective (the alpha clones are way too limited).
-Liang If you're going to argue that CCP exercise better control over how Clone States are marketed, you need to stop using the contentious phrase yourself :D Free To Play has a distinct meaning in the gaming world, which is that most of the game is accessible to you from the start, but you'll be expending a lot of effort to gain items that pay-to-play players have easy access to. F2P also has the connotation of "Pay To Win" where people with money can basically buy victory. Does an Alpha State account consist of an "extended trial"? What about a "sampler account"? What phrasing can we use to clearly convey that EVE Online now offers a subscription-free experience that is a limited form of the full game but still has you participating in the one universe with other players?
this model has been done before in the MMO's or do non of you remember runscape? f2p for the 1st 3-5 months of content with a celling on content that you couldn't effectively pass. if you wanted to play the real game where all the updates where you had to pay for it. but it was enough to get your feet wet and interested in the game. |
Christopher Mabata
Sentinel Incorporium
457
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Posted - 2016.10.05 02:46:53 -
[210] - Quote
Question: 1 - I know alpha clones cannot train PI skills, but with 0 skills an alpha can set up a single colony without the capability to scan for deposits yes? Literally if i created a brand new alt i could drop a CC on a planet right after i found a ship with 1k cargo which is why with consolidation V you can run 6 colonies. Will alphas still be able to do this?
2. If a subbed account lapses to Alpha status, and has existing colonies, are these colonies locked out? Or are they just no longer able to edit the lines or continue upgrading them but they function as setup? In addition to no longer having access to scans of deposits.
GÖú Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry GÖú 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing GÖú
This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
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Nosum Hseebnrido
Interregnum.
9
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Posted - 2016.10.20 05:48:10 -
[211] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:After the big announcement of Clone States, we have a quick follow-up for you. But before you read the blog, we would like to thank you for the overwhelmingly constructive feedback we have received. Seeing you discussing the consequences, pointing to potential issues, already making plans ... that is wonderful and proves again that the EVE community is the best! Please check out the dev blog Clone States GÇô Post Announcement Follow-up! I have question, will we be able to sell our character on character bazar while on AC state?
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Nosum_Hseebnrido
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Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations Phoenix Naval Systems
174
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Posted - 2016.10.29 23:47:58 -
[212] - Quote
So this might be a little late but I started playing around with the alpha clone skills and noticed a huge gapping hole in the caldari skillset in the form of capacitor emission systems lvl 1.
While I imagine the reason for not having it is due to energy neutralizers and nos, it basically means for the most part the common cap transfer osprey is unfitable. This is extra weird to me because all the other factions gain access to this skill even when its not a mandatory part of their faction logistics.
Please allow caldari alpha's the ability to train Capacitor emissions systems to at least one so they can get cap transfers for the osprey. Otherwise they might as well not even be able to fly the ship. |
Matar Ronin
2386
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Posted - 2016.10.31 21:35:33 -
[213] - Quote
Solo mining in highsec in your paid Omega account? After November implement opeartion "Code Breaker".
Use two alphas as support for free.
Use the alphas as an anti-gank Cat flying security force, two alphas kiting per each mining ship.
Use the alphas to deploy mobile tractor units. Use the alphas to deply mobile depots.
Use the drones from alphas to constantly repair your mining ship and up it's hp survival time so Concord can arrive.
Use the alphas to kite your ship so gankers have three targets to destroy before Concord arrives.
Use the alphas to scoop your loot and their loot after the gank of your mining ship, then they lose isk also.
Use the alphas to destroy/deny the loot from your ganked ship before the gank alt bumper can scoop it.
Use the alphas to gank the ganker's neut high sec bumping alt when he tries to loot your wreck.
Alphas may give us the chance to turn the tables on gankers.
Can alphas receive command bursts?
Can alphas join fleets with Omegas?
Can alphas join existing corps and alliances with Omegas?
Thank you CCP.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2005
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Posted - 2016.11.01 00:18:35 -
[214] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:Solo mining in highsec in your paid Omega account? After November implement opeartion "Code Breaker".
...
Thank you CCP. Unless you plan on breaking the EULA most of this won't work since you can't log an alpha account in alongside another account, alpha or omega. |
Matar Ronin
2386
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Posted - 2016.11.01 02:33:49 -
[215] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Solo mining in highsec in your paid Omega account? After November implement opeartion "Code Breaker".
...
Thank you CCP. Unless you plan on breaking the EULA most of this won't work since you can't log an alpha account in alongside another account, alpha or omega. That would violate the EULA? From separate computers? I had better read that thing again!
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3695
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Posted - 2016.11.01 02:41:11 -
[216] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:That would violate the EULA? From separate computers? I had better read that thing again!
Any method of bypassing the login restrictions is an EULA breach. You are just gambling that CCP won't work it out. |
Matar Ronin
2386
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Posted - 2016.11.01 02:48:03 -
[217] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:That would violate the EULA? From separate computers? I had better read that thing again!
Any method of bypassing the login restrictions is an EULA breach. You are just gambling that CCP won't work it out. I am looking up the EULA to reread, not a chance worth taking if it violates the rules.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2005
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Posted - 2016.11.01 02:56:37 -
[218] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:That would violate the EULA? From separate computers? I had better read that thing again!
Any method of bypassing the login restrictions is an EULA breach. You are just gambling that CCP won't work it out. I am looking up the EULA to reread, not a chance worth taking if it violates the rules. For reference:
Clone States - Post CSM Summit Roundup wrote:Simultaneous Logon for Alphas:The CSMGÇÖs number one focus for Clone States matched the biggest concern from general player feedback: simultaneous Alpha clone logon must be limited. We agree and so we are planning to implement restrictions that keep any Alpha account from passing character select if another EVE client is already active. This will be true even if the other client is Omega. Bypassing these restrictions will also be a breach of the EULA and may lead to penalties and punishments and all that nasty stuff that our security team does if they catch you being bad.
For the actual EULA change see here.
Also I wouldn't chance it personally since there is no language in the EULA stating any part of the agreement is invalidated by moving to another machine. |
Matar Ronin
2386
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Posted - 2016.11.01 03:03:11 -
[219] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Solo mining in highsec in your paid Omega account? After November implement opeartion "Code Breaker".
...
Thank you CCP. Unless you plan on breaking the EULA most of this won't work since you can't log an alpha account in alongside another account, alpha or omega. If Alpha accounts are valid accounts, and certainly they will be, it does not appear to be a violation of the EULA.
For each valid Account you maintain, you may install a copy of the Software on, and access the System from, a single computer or Game platform, and from a secondary computer if you so choose. You may make one (1) copy of the Software for backup or archival purposes.
Multiple paid accounts would be a violation by what seems to be your reading of the EULA. Unless you can point me to a new provision that prohibits paid players from using Alpha accounts it appears to be legit according to the rules.
Please correct me if I am wrong and include or link the specific provisions I would be in violation of. Glad I said it before doing it and learned via the banhammer!
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
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Matar Ronin
2386
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Posted - 2016.11.01 03:12:13 -
[220] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:That would violate the EULA? From separate computers? I had better read that thing again!
Any method of bypassing the login restrictions is an EULA breach. You are just gambling that CCP won't work it out. I am looking up the EULA to reread, not a chance worth taking if it violates the rules. For reference: Clone States - Post CSM Summit Roundup wrote:Simultaneous Logon for Alphas:The CSMGÇÖs number one focus for Clone States matched the biggest concern from general player feedback: simultaneous Alpha clone logon must be limited. We agree and so we are planning to implement restrictions that keep any Alpha account from passing character select if another EVE client is already active. This will be true even if the other client is Omega. Bypassing these restrictions will also be a breach of the EULA and may lead to penalties and punishments and all that nasty stuff that our security team does if they catch you being bad. For the actual EULA change see here.Also I wouldn't chance it personally since there is no language in the EULA stating any part of the agreement is invalidated by moving to another machine. Thank you! You just saved me from making a big mistake, much appreciated. Alpha account can not be logged in with a paid account or other alpha account. The banhammer would have hurt.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2005
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Posted - 2016.11.01 03:14:26 -
[221] - Quote
NVM, you got it. |
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