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ccp is keeping your reward money.....little know fact

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Gaogan Gallente Solar Storm	Posted - 2007.03.18 02:40:00 - [31] Would the forum mods please delete posts by thepointless and the other dolts blathering about entirely unrelated things? This thread is about what happens to the reward money in failed missions. It most definitely should be returned to the issuer since it was not paid out to the accepter.
The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.03.18 02:47:00 - [32] Originally by: Gaogan Would the forum mods please delete posts by thepointless and the other dolts blathering about entirely unrelated things? Not going to happen. Deal with it. And if you're going to try and insult me, at least have the level of intelligence required to type my name properly, thank you. ----------------------------------------------- I'd rather be a jack of all trades than a master of one.
WarMongeer	Posted - 2007.03.18 03:08:00 - [33] This happened to me the other night when I was drinking. I wanted an armor repper that was on the market, bought it at a station I couldn't dock at. So then I thought, hey, we have courier contracts now, I'll set one up. So I put 10m for the reward w/10m collateral. Guy accepted, failed the mission, so repper is gone and reward is gone. Cheesy. Moral of the story: Courier missions are the new stealth isk sink. Avoid them like you would freeform contracts.
centaur I	Posted - 2007.03.18 05:38:00 - [34] the problem is like the last person stated....a 10mil collateral...a 10mil reward for a courier that goes bust and he nets absolutely nothing. why would anyone defend giving ccp money they dont deserve. dont say just charge more for collateral to cover it becuase thats is evading the purpose of this thread. the bottom line is they are taking our money..remember all our characters started with almost nothing. when you started how would you have felt if you would have lost your first million to a courier contract just because they wanted to keep it. keep the thread alive
WarMongeer	Posted - 2007.03.18 05:50:00 - [35] Originally by: centaur I the problem is like the last person stated....a 10mil collateral...a 10mil reward for a courier that goes bust and he nets absolutely nothing. I think my net gain from the exchange was ~ negative 9 mil from the cost of the repper itself (not cheap).
Phoenix Lord The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2007.03.18 05:51:00 - [36] I agree with the OP here, why the hell should the reward go poof if the courier fails? Arrow Capital Ship Sales
Shadow Lightbringer Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.18 06:11:00 - [37] I can see the OP's point here, you should get your reward back. But I guess I don't see why you set a low collateral and high reward. You should always set the collateral to what the item is worth and then set the reward to what you intend to pay the pilot for his service. I've never done a courier mission, can you fail it on purpose and just claim the item on the contract? If so, doing so on a low collateral contract might be a cheap way of getting an expensive item. The few courier missions I have created, I always set my collateral to the value of the item and then the reward to a reasonable price based on # of jumps and security risks. At the very least that dramatically reduces my risk on it. When I get home I'm going to run a few courier missions to learn more about it from the hauler's point of view.
centaur I	Posted - 2007.03.18 06:34:00 - [38] the purpose of this thread is to find out why they keep the reward money...not post a work around so you dont lose money. ccp gets the reward money from the issuer for a failed contract and you get the collateral minus your reward. if you justify this by jacking up the collateral then the courier is the one being screwed by ccp. same scenario, you just feel better because it didnt cost you anything. you should get the collateral plus reward back.
Shadow Lightbringer Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.18 06:42:00 - [39] Another thought about this, after comparing this to when I go to the post office or Fedex to ship a package. When I take a package in, I have to pay a certain fee based on where I'm shipping it to and it's weight. This could be associated with the reward aspect of the in-game courier mission. I can also put insurance on the package for the value of the contents of the package, hence collateral. Now if they lose the package or run it over with a truck, I will be compensated by the insurance (collateral). But no matter what, they keep the fees that they charged me initially. So why not change courier missions to be something similar. When setting up the contract, we set our collateral and rewards just like normal. But what is different is that the person who accepts the mission pays the collateral set, but gets the reward immediately. This way you are forced to set your collateral high enough to protect you against the loss of the item and the person who is delivering your item is motivated to succeed in order to get what he paid in collateral back so he can make a profit. That is my idea anyways. Feel free to tear it apart.
bogir War And Peace Construction	Posted - 2007.03.18 06:45:00 - [40] this here is soooo rong on CCPs side.. I cant understant why the one there are makeing it dont get the reward money back on a fail... aka player X make a courier mission... A mill Reward and B mill collateral. and then player Y accept it... player Y pays B mill collateral.. then er have 2 ways to look at it.. 1: player Y makes it.. then he get back B mill Collateral.. and he get A mill Reward.. and player X get his item.. ALL are happy 2: Player Y Fails.. Then he dont get any.. he lose the B mill collateral.. BUT on the ohter hand Plater X lose his item.. he gets the B mill Collateral. BUT WTF he dont get A mill Reward back.... IT is here we have the problem... he set up a reward for the one makeing it.. WHY dont he get one it back on a fail form player Y. i hope it is a fail in ccps programming. and they will fix it.. just my sad 2 isk
Shadow Lightbringer Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.18 06:56:00 - [41] Originally by: centaur I the purpose of this thread is to find out why they keep the reward money...not post a work around so you dont lose money. ccp gets the reward money from the issuer for a failed contract and you get the collateral minus your reward. if you justify this by jacking up the collateral then the courier is the one being screwed by ccp. same scenario, you just feel better because it didnt cost you anything. you should get the collateral plus reward back. I'm not suggesting that people should jack up their collateral to cover the value of the item and the value of the reward. If you think about it, who would take those contracts since they would never get ahead ISK-wise. Right now as the system is setup, yes, the OP should get his reward back. But I'm saying that the overall system is flawed in that he is expecting to even get it back. See my second post in this thread where I explain how I think CCP should change the system, and really how people should treat the current system.
Druadan Gallente Aristotle Enterprises Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2007.03.18 07:32:00 - [42] Edited by: Druadan on 18/03/2007 07:29:19 Reward money should definitely be going back to the contract issuer. As all the people who are correct in this thread have said, a reward is paid for successful completion of a job. If some kid's parent's try to encourage him to get good grades by saying "We'll give you ú100 if you manage to get 6 out of 10 A's in your GCSE exams", when the kid fails to get those grades the money doesn't disappear out of his dad's wallet into nothingness; the reward is not paid so the money goes nowhere. The same logic applies here. The mission was not completed, the reward money should stay where it is. It is a faulty game mechanic problem. The only reason the money leaves the wallet in the first place is to avoid the game mechanic conflict where the contract issuer spends the money before the job is completed. The Pointless, read through all your posts, and any others in this thread that happen to be made of ass and hat. That is what it looks like to be 100% wrong. Note that for future reference and attempt to avoid such levels of fail. __________________________________________________ "A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire*
R3dSh1ft Caldari FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.18 08:30:00 - [43] Its obviously a bug; bug report it ______________________________________
Kumu Honua	Posted - 2007.03.18 08:37:00 - [44] Originally by: Shadow Lightbringer I can see the OP's point here, you should get your reward back. But I guess I don't see why you set a low collateral and high reward. You should always set the collateral to what the item is worth and then set the reward to what you intend to pay the pilot for his service. Low collateral high reward? The item might only be worth a small collateral. Not every courier is a +5 implant getting moved. Sometimes is something simple like a load of ammo or a cheap module. So with this cheap ammo or module, the collateral is low. Now you have a courier with a cheap collateral. This is good because the collateral is the amount of risk that the courier will incur in accepting this contract. The lower the collateral the less risk involved. Especially when dealing with lowsec. So you have a low collateral. Now it's time to set the reward. The reward is the incentive for people to accept the mission. If it is a high reward, the contract will be picked up rather quickly. If it's a low reward people say "Screw that. I get more by killing this frig rat and I don't even have to go 20 jumps to do it.", and your courier sits and sits till it expires. So now you have a low collateral contract, with a high reward. This contract will most likely be accepted quickly. The risk is small, and the reward is great. Then comes the problem. Your courier gets blown up on route by some pirates. No problem, you have a collateral to cover the items. That's all fine and dandy. The problem comes with the reward you offered. It doesn't get paid to the courier. He failed. It doesn't go back to the contracter though it should. It simply vanishes into thin air. That's where the problem lies. Now the contractor not only doesn't have the items (Though the collateral covered that), now he doesn't have the isk he set aside as the reward either. To counteract this, the contractor could make the collateral include the reward as well. However that will totally negate any value the reward had as an incentive as it's now included in the risk of the courier. Quote: I've never done a courier mission, can you fail it on purpose and just claim the item on the contract? If so, doing so on a low collateral contract might be a cheap way of getting an expensive item. Yes, you can fail the courier on purpose. Generally, the collateral will cover the cost of the item. That's the whole point to a collateral.
Andon Cormarr	Posted - 2007.03.18 10:37:00 - [45] This is definitely not how things should work. I like your idea, Shadow, on a possible fix. But I think I would make a small change, to better protect the contract's creator. Instead of paying the courier the reward up front, I say have the contract act more like an NPC courier mission. The courier pays the collateral upon accepting the contract, and receives the reward upon depositing the cargo at its destination. If the courier fails to complete the contract for whatever reason, they are out their collateral. To prevent someone from offering an unrealistically high reward, or simply spending the reward money before the courier finishes the job, have it set aside as currently happens on buy orders. That way the courier will be paid upon successful delivery. If the courier fails, for whatever reason, the "escrowed" reward is simply released back to the creator's wallet. This would be much closer to how the commercial freight industry functions, I believe.
Fayn Trak Gallente Myridian Trading Systems	Posted - 2007.03.18 11:02:00 - [46] there's not much to add here but I do like some of the conversation going on. a: The game mechaic is such that if you setup a courier contract you must have a collateral higher than your reward or you stand to lose money if it's failed. b: courier contracts suck anyway the collateral is always way too high in comparisson to the reward. Appropriate? I think so. A herd of cattle A flock of geese A lot of isk remember when sigs were text?
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2007.03.18 11:21:00 - [47] I agree with OP, rewards from failed missions being lost in system is clearly a bug. @The Pointless You are probably just bored forum troll, but in case you really believe to what you say: it is absolutely NOT your business what is inside my package. I set route, reward and collateral. You claim the mission or not - your decision. What is inside is not your business, your business is to move my package from A to B. And by the way, as a contractor who pays like 500M per month on couriers, I can tell you that courier contracts are extremly popular and many ppl make really good ISK on them. _________ Buying/Selling: Implants & Hardwirings Producing/BPCs: Mining Barges, T2 Components T2 Distribution: 8 regions covered
The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.03.18 12:14:00 - [48] Originally by: Robacz @The Pointless You are probably just bored forum troll, Get out. I will not be tarred with the same brush as those idiots. Originally by: Robacz but in case you really believe to what you say: it is absolutely NOT your business what is inside my package. I set route, reward and collateral. You claim the mission or not - your decision. What is inside is not your business, your business is to move my package from A to B. It becomes my business when I'm forced to fail the contract, since the goods no longer belong to you. Originally by: Robacz And by the way, as a contractor who pays like 500M per month on couriers, I can tell you that courier contracts are extremly popular and many ppl make really good ISK on them. Yeah, for the new kids who scraped up the collateral from mining, and have no idea how risky that low-sec system in their route is... ----------------------------------------------- I'd rather be a jack of all trades than a master of one.
centaur I	Posted - 2007.03.18 15:11:00 - [49] i would like to hear ccp comments on this thread. i think they are caught with their hand in the cookie jar myself
The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.03.18 15:16:00 - [50] Originally by: centaur I i would like to hear ccp comments on this thread. i think they are caught with their hand in the cookie jar myself See, THERE he goes again with the "CCP's taking our ISK"! Why? Why oh why do you insist that the ISK is going to CCP intsead of just disappearing? Why? Why? WHY? ----------------------------------------------- I'd rather be a jack of all trades than a master of one.
Michelle Yeats Caldari Promethean Industries	Posted - 2007.03.18 16:18:00 - [51] Where does the isk go then? It just goes "away?" I'd understand if the courier breaks the package or fails the mission to keep the package but again, why not does the reward come out of escrow and returned to the person that set the mission? In this case, the courier was unable to bring the contract to finish the mission. The package was in the correct hanger but the mission was unable to finish. I say in this case it was a bug but the ccp GM petitioned would not refund the reward money, just state that it was gone. "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." --Albert Einstein
bogir War And Peace Construction	Posted - 2007.03.18 16:23:00 - [52] Originally by: The Pointless Originally by: Robacz @The Pointless You are probably just bored forum troll, Get out. I will not be tarred with the same brush as those idiots. YO Troll boy --- we konw what you think about this system.. now just drop it and keep the post to the real question here... and that is WHY dont CCP fix this bug.......
The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.03.18 16:35:00 - [53] Originally by: bogir we konw what you think about this system.. now just drop it and keep the post to the real question here... Well, I would have, but some idiot chose to comment on how ignorant it sounded. ----------------------------------------------- I'd rather be a jack of all trades than a master of one.
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2007.03.18 17:02:00 - [54] Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 18/03/2007 17:00:32 erm you know.... you can always include the reward in the collateral I make a profit when someone fails my contracts. "If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor." -Albert Einstein Member of the [UTSFAH] corp.
centaur I	Posted - 2007.03.18 17:20:00 - [55] Originally by: Celeste Coeval Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 18/03/2007 17:00:32 erm you know.... you can always include the reward in the collateral I make a profit when someone fails my contracts. if you also received the reward back you would make that much more money then....you are simply moving the problem from you to your courier. the reward money still "disappears".
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2007.03.18 17:22:00 - [56] Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 18/03/2007 17:19:36 Originally by: centaur I Originally by: Celeste Coeval Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 18/03/2007 17:00:32 erm you know.... you can always include the reward in the collateral I make a profit when someone fails my contracts. if you also received the reward back you would make that much more money then....you are simply moving the problem from you to your courier. the reward money still "disappears". so? Consider it a fee or risk. "If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor." -Albert Einstein Member of the [UTSFAH] corp.
monkeyduck Mithril Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.18 17:47:00 - [57] Originally by: Celeste Coeval so? Consider it a fee or risk. Or, wild idea here, fix the bug? Workarounds are fine until the problem is fixed - people KNOW the workarounds - but the problem isn't resolving itself. If something is broke, fix it. That or change the deceitful nature of the current Courier contract system. Or remove it altogether.
centaur I	Posted - 2007.03.19 04:21:00 - [58] that fact is a courier contract for a 20mil item you bought. you set your collateral at 20mil since thats what you paid for it. set a reward of 20mil cause you really need it bad out of the low sec and you are scared. now you have 40 mil invested in the contract, item + reward. your courier fails the contract for whatever reason. your item is gone but you get the 20mil collateral so you are even at this point. great. but then you realize they get to keep your reward money for some unknown reason. now your net LOSS is 20mil. now that just isnt right.....
Digital Solaris	Posted - 2007.03.19 05:00:00 - [59] Actually, I would like the moderators to maintain this thread as clearly shows centaur1, alt or not, whoever that might be behind the account should seek psychiatric aid. -- Forum mentality is really like sex, everbody likes to be on top! Me too... although, I prefer doggy.
MiIes Naismith Amarr Guru Clan	Posted - 2007.03.19 05:00:00 - [60] Originally by: centaur I Edited by: centaur I on 18/03/2007 00:25:36 snip Please do not post replies from GM's. -Conuion Meow ([email protected]) and why not??..they represent ccp in the petiton dont they...i should be able to quote them in their actions. because then they would have to deal with two things they arnt good at. one which is proof ( OR STFU CCP) and two which i kind of understand, is Precedent. if a particular gms actions are posted in response to a situation. everyone would expect the same decision in thier own case. while atm this leaves the gm's room to work so to speak to better be able to flexably solve the issue. in short it scares them that we might obtain proof and have precedent on how it should be handled. ccp like to be complete dictators here. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Timmeh 2000 ([email protected])

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