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Deadude Gallente Simtech Productions Kith of Venal	Posted - 2007.03.19 11:17:00 - [1] I lost a carrier few days back and i'm not even online. I did some research and found out that if someone shoot your rat wrecks it will trigger the 15 mn aggresion timer, Is this true? The guys who killed me was waiting for me to log off and probe my carrier and killed it but my pod was kill 15mins later (its all in the killmail) and i log off from pos with no prior engagement of anykind. This shows that they exploit the game mechanics to get big kills. CCP should do something about it.I log in after dt to find myself in my clone stn good fight Signature Creativity Level 0
Lord Matrix PBA Corporation The Volition Cult	Posted - 2007.03.19 11:20:00 - [2] Petition your loss if you think exploiting was involved.
Kazuma Saruwatari	Posted - 2007.03.19 11:23:00 - [3] sounds iffy. Unless popping your ship resets the 15min aggro logoff timer so its back to 15 mins, that shouldnt have happened. Either they popped you fast enough to make it within 15 mins, or somehting weird is up. *
Heraku Oerlikon Contraves Aerospace	Posted - 2007.03.19 11:25:00 - [4] Edited by: Heraku on 19/03/2007 11:28:06 If it's done the way you described, then its one of a lame kill and you should try to petition. PS : Please excuse the question, but how does one shoot you if you log out within the range of your POS shields please ?
Deadude Gallente Simtech Productions Kith of Venal	Posted - 2007.03.19 11:26:00 - [5] Edited by: Deadude on 19/03/2007 11:26:07 With 2 thanatos and 8 other ship, i guess they kill my carrier fast enough to probe my pod Signature Creativity Level 0
Braaage Laborius Chapter	Posted - 2007.03.19 11:28:00 - [6] You log out in a POS, when you disconnect your ship goes into an emergency warp point (supposedly a safe spot). It's about time CCP started issuing bans for people who exploit this. Also since it's known to a lot of players why has there been no GM announcement posted about this (in game) as it's already been acknowledged as an exploit.
Deadude Gallente Simtech Productions Kith of Venal	Posted - 2007.03.19 11:28:00 - [7] As I understand your ship will warp 1 mil k away and dissapear , so i suspect my 15 min aggro timer was triggered and its still hanging in deep space whiich can be easily found with probes Signature Creativity Level 0
PredatorPT New Dawn Corp	Posted - 2007.03.19 11:31:00 - [8] Originally by: Heraku Please excuse the question, but how does one shoot you if you log out within the range of your POS shields please ? When you log out, your ship will always emergency warp out 1 million kilometers in a random direction, assuming it is not scrambled. Since the OP had been flagged because his wrecks were shot at, when his ship warped to the 1million km safespot it stayed there for 15 minutes. I would rather have the game give an option to not initiate warp when logging out, it just seems stupid that an emergency warp would get you out of a perfectly safe forcefield to the cold empty space where you can be easily murdered.
Druadan Gallente Aristotle Enterprises Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2007.03.19 11:34:00 - [9] You should definitely petition the loss. Unreasonable way to lose a ship, for sure. People who have to resort to exploits like this to kill a ship should just accept that they suck and go play counterstrike with the rest of the bunny-hopping game-mechanic exploiting populace of computer gaming. __________________________________________________ "A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire
Deadude Gallente Simtech Productions Kith of Venal	Posted - 2007.03.19 11:44:00 - [10] Yeah i did petition abobut it and i will surely tell Triumvirate Alliance to play counter stike instead Signature Creativity Level 0
Mymh Heretache	Posted - 2007.03.19 11:50:00 - [11] Edited by: Mymh Heretache on 19/03/2007 11:46:26 Was alot of posts about this several weeks ago, and was posted that you will get reinbursed by GM's if you report/petition it. Don't take my word for it tho as I havn't tried it, but that's the information given here.
cassy3242342	Posted - 2007.03.19 11:56:00 - [12] ha ha ha ha **** :D
Trev Kachanov STK Scientific INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.19 11:57:00 - [13] personally i'd askaninja ... he'd probably know I find your lack of faith disturbing
boo3916 D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.03.19 13:00:00 - [14] lets set things straight before u flame tri, u had aggression and have now lost 2 carriers to us, both times u logged off when aggressed, warping to a pos when aggressed and then logging off still means u have aggression timer, also post with the character that lost the carriers not your alt u lost due to game mechanics, most people know tri and we would not stoop to such underhand tactics, if we did we would get many more kills flame ended
maarud Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.19 13:05:00 - [15] This is a exploit, petition it. Maarud. Proudly a Ex-BYDI member
Dekiri Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.03.19 13:07:00 - [16] Edited by: Dekiri on 19/03/2007 13:04:46 Normally i would start flaming here, but I do have to admit I have some sympathy for you. I mean if I had lost 2 carriers to someone within 4 days I would make up any excuse to save my face as well. You died TWICE due to your own inability to be careful enough. So while I can understand you making up any nonsense excuse I would really ask you to stop accusing us of cheating when you are just a very bad player. I will of course be unable tomake you stop doing this, but I would really ask you to stick to the truth. Or learn the game mechanics properly=) --------------------------------- My dad can beat up your dad!
jamesw Rubra Libertas Militia	Posted - 2007.03.19 13:11:00 - [17] Anyone who fits Nanos on a carrier deserves a horrible death imo -- Latest Vid: Domination!
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy Apocalyptica.	Posted - 2007.03.19 13:37:00 - [18] ANY act of hostility against you will set the timer to 15 mintues... So everytime they fired a shot at your ship the timer (for you to dissapear) was reset to 15 minutes. When your carrier exploded you had another 15 minutes before vanishing - wether the pod will "emergency warp" away from this is unsure for me, but I don't think so... If they killed it 15 minutes later I don't know why - perhaps they had it scrambled and was hoping for you to log on again for a ransom - I'm a nice guy!! and OMG I love Team Tuxford for the speedbalancing...
Spaced Skunk D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.03.19 15:46:00 - [19] Originally by: boo3916 lets set things straight before u flame tri, u had aggression and have now lost 2 carriers to us, both times u logged off when aggressed, warping to a pos when aggressed and then logging off still means u have aggression timer, also post with the character that lost the carriers not your alt u lost due to game mechanics, most people know tri and we would not stoop to such underhand tactics, if we did we would get many more kills flame ended He didn't log off the first time boo, caught him in a belt. The second time I don't know what went on, I certainly hope the accusations are indeed false, because the tactic is lame and not what I have come to expect from my alliance.
Miss KillSome	Posted - 2007.03.19 15:52:00 - [20] I dont think its hard to show a timer if u have aggression timer in top left corner of screen, CCP?? If u dont know how to code it, I'll do it for u, free of charge..
Kareltje	Posted - 2007.03.19 16:04:00 - [21] I believe that shooting wrecks to keep aggro going is an exploit in theory. I've heard that the GM's can't see what caused your aggro, they can only see that you had aggro. That could do with a bit of change imho. That said, you decided to play EvE on easy mode by NPC'ing in a carrier, so you deserve to die anyway.
Cyrus Clarke Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.03.19 16:56:00 - [22] In my experiences with Triumvirate, having fought beside and against them, they are nothing if not honorable. Ebil piwates for sure , but honorable ones. This doesn't sound like a tactic they would exploit. You sure they didn't catch you in a belt and get a few shots in on you initiating the timer?
Da Tosser Enterprising Trolls With Flamethrowers	Posted - 2007.03.19 17:15:00 - [23] First off, were you watching local? Even if they shot your wrecks, you deserve to die. If you are tarded enough to not spend a couple extra secs popping your wrecks before continuing on to next belt, then its your fault. If you are so much of a loner that you cant get a friend to watch gate for you, it your fault. And since you have a POS present, why log off at all, might as well wait to they get board and resume. If this happened in low sec, get a clue and go to 0.0, its much safer imho. Hell checking local, clearing your wrecks, and having ANY friends should have prevented this. You sir are a noob and I present you with a Gold Star.
Moxprow Gallente Darkness Realized	Posted - 2007.03.19 17:18:00 - [24] Destroy your own wreaks when NPCing? Seems like such an obvious answer and yet we keep getting these threads.
Tyrrhena Maxus	Posted - 2007.03.19 17:20:00 - [25] lol logging because your npc'ing and cbf running and hiding properly is lame. is it any surprise that someone found a way to kill you that is equally lame? i for one understand the frustration when your hunting and someone logs because they don't want to fight, though i guess if you needed to log to go to work or something it could be annoying. if your logged out but your wrecks are still around and someone pop's one, will you appear back in space? or does this only work before you've logged off?
Iuris Proeliator Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.03.19 17:20:00 - [26] Can anyone please explain the logic of getting aggression from someone else... shooting your wreck? The need to "Pop your wrecks" is wasteful, and unfair to pilots that have a heavy cost for ammo. Sure, you make enough Isk in a single rat kill to pay for it, but that's not the point. There's no reason I can imagine that someone shooting your wreck gets you aggro.
Moxprow Gallente Darkness Realized deadspace society	Posted - 2007.03.19 17:38:00 - [27] Originally by: Iuris Proeliator Can anyone please explain the logic of getting aggression from someone else... shooting your wreck? The need to "Pop your wrecks" is wasteful, and unfair to pilots that have a heavy cost for ammo. Sure, you make enough Isk in a single rat kill to pay for it, but that's not the point. There's no reason I can imagine that someone shooting your wreck gets you aggro. You're right it's not the point. But until it gets fixed there is an easy way to avoid it. If you're using a ship with any kind of drone bay it gets even easier. If you're going to leave wreaks around knowing it's an issue you deserve to get popped IMO.
Da Tosser Enterprising Trolls With Flamethrowers	Posted - 2007.03.19 17:43:00 - [28] Originally by: Iuris Proeliator Can anyone please explain the logic of getting aggression from someone else... shooting your wreck? The need to "Pop your wrecks" is wasteful, and unfair to pilots that have a heavy cost for ammo. Sure, you make enough Isk in a single rat kill to pay for it, but that's not the point. There's no reason I can imagine that someone shooting your wreck gets you aggro. They are 'your' wrecks, if I grab loot from them or salvage them, I get an aggression timer. As for ammo costs, get a single drone to go kill them, cheap and easy. You must all be fat lazy sobs that expect everything on a platter. Don't like the mechanics, then quit and go back to an easier game. Maybe Penguin Club is more your skill level. Or if you don't wanna quit, don't complain for being too cheap/lazy too protect your investment.
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.03.19 17:49:00 - [29] Edited by: Plutoinum on 19/03/2007 17:48:13 Afaik logging, before the 15 min timer runs out, starts a new 15 minutes timer, no matter, if you haven't been shot the last 10 minutes before. If they kill your carrier then, your POD warps out, but another 15 minute timer is started for the POD at that time. After BoB killed ASCNs Titan, someone posted a link, where it is described. So afaik 3 phases: 1) you get aggressed => 15 minute timer starts from zero (reset to zero with each new aggression) 2) You log off before the 15 mins are over => A new 15 minutes timer starts for your ship 3) Ship gets killed and POD warps off => Another 15 minute timer for the POD starts. ___________ Muuuhhh !!!
Marquis Dean The Last Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.03.19 17:52:00 - [30] Originally by: Da Tosser Originally by: Iuris Proeliator Can anyone please explain the logic of getting aggression from someone else... shooting your wreck? The need to "Pop your wrecks" is wasteful, and unfair to pilots that have a heavy cost for ammo. Sure, you make enough Isk in a single rat kill to pay for it, but that's not the point. There's no reason I can imagine that someone shooting your wreck gets you aggro. They are 'your' wrecks, if I grab loot from them or salvage them, I get an aggression timer. As for ammo costs, get a single drone to go kill them, cheap and easy. You must all be fat lazy sobs that expect everything on a platter. Don't like the mechanics, then quit and go back to an easier game. Maybe Penguin Club is more your skill level. Or if you don't wanna quit, don't complain for being too cheap/lazy too protect your investment. So you're sitting there ratting happily in a dead system. Suddenly local jump to 10 or 15 and you think 'oh noes, ebil piwats no doubt!'. So in the 10-15 minutes you naturally have before the pirates decide to do anything, you jump to every belt and blow up all your wrecks, then warp to a pos/moon/whatever, and log out, safe in the knowledge that there is no possible way they can draw agro now. Genius! --- Originally by: Foopadoo Hell hath no fury like an internet nerd scorned.
Moxprow Gallente Darkness Realized deadspace society	Posted - 2007.03.19 17:56:00 - [31] Originally by: Marquis Dean Originally by: Da Tosser Originally by: Iuris Proeliator Can anyone please explain the logic of getting aggression from someone else... shooting your wreck? The need to "Pop your wrecks" is wasteful, and unfair to pilots that have a heavy cost for ammo. Sure, you make enough Isk in a single rat kill to pay for it, but that's not the point. There's no reason I can imagine that someone shooting your wreck gets you aggro. They are 'your' wrecks, if I grab loot from them or salvage them, I get an aggression timer. As for ammo costs, get a single drone to go kill them, cheap and easy. You must all be fat lazy sobs that expect everything on a platter. Don't like the mechanics, then quit and go back to an easier game. Maybe Penguin Club is more your skill level. Or if you don't wanna quit, don't complain for being too cheap/lazy too protect your investment. So you're sitting there ratting happily in a dead system. Suddenly local jump to 10 or 15 and you think 'oh noes, ebil piwats no doubt!'. So in the 10-15 minutes you naturally have before the pirates decide to do anything, you jump to every belt and blow up all your wrecks, then warp to a pos/moon/whatever, and log out, safe in the knowledge that there is no possible way they can draw agro now. Genius! Blow them up as you're ratting Genius, you know like before you move to a new belt destroy the wreaks in this one.
Sylaan Caldari Rakeriku Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.03.19 17:58:00 - [32] Unfortunately, petitioning wont help at all. The exact same thing happened to me, they fired at my wrecks to extend my timer. I petitioned but GMs just told me they "cant' verify" my claim. Even though I have provided ample proof with timestamps of my last NPC aggression and time of my ship kill. I am not discussing GM decisions, maybe they dont have a way to verify this wreck damage. However, there was absolutely no other logical explication, logs or not. Anyway, petition it, maybe you have more luck.
Da Tosser Enterprising Trolls With Flamethrowers	Posted - 2007.03.19 18:02:00 - [33] Originally by: Marquis Dean So you're sitting there ratting happily in a dead system. Suddenly local jump to 10 or 15 and you think 'oh noes, ebil piwats no doubt!'. So in the 10-15 minutes you naturally have before the pirates decide to do anything, you jump to every belt and blow up all your wrecks, then warp to a pos/moon/whatever, and log out, safe in the knowledge that there is no possible way they can draw agro now. Genius! Clean your wrecks as you go. If you need every little step planned out for you, so that sack of crud in your head referred to as a brain doesn't heat up and stink up the place, GO PLAY WoW. If you can warp to a POS, why log? Afraid of the ebil smack? Can't stand getting your feelings hurt by people that don't really have any affect on you in RL? Hell put a large bubble on the gate to protect your precious ratting system. Put 13 of them there. Hell put small warp bubbles between the gate and each belt/planet/moon/complex. That will slow them down. You will really have shown them then!
Bozse Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.19 18:07:00 - [34] Originally by: Miss KillSome I dont think its hard to show a timer if u have aggression timer in top left corner of screen, CCP?? If u dont know how to code it, I'll do it for u, free of charge.. It shuldn't be there as we don't need EvE on "easy" mode, CCP will hopefully never listen to the whine for one either.
Da Tosser Enterprising Trolls With Flamethrowers	Posted - 2007.03.19 18:12:00 - [35] Originally by: Bozse Originally by: Miss KillSome I dont think its hard to show a timer if u have aggression timer in top left corner of screen, CCP?? If u dont know how to code it, I'll do it for u, free of charge.. It shuldn't be there as we don't need EvE on "easy" mode, CCP will hopefully never listen to the whine for one either. /signed And the truth shall set you free! Anyone know where the difficulty slider is? Can't seem to find it on the ESC menu and alt+F4 didn't work either!
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.19 18:23:00 - [36] Tri have nuked us Freelancers many a time, and I've never seen them do something that lame before. If you're telling porkies, you deserve a good slapping, mr OP. If you're telling the truth, I hope Tri get medieval on the ass of whoever let them down like that. --------
Larg Kellein Caldari GTE Corp Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.03.19 19:44:00 - [37] Originally by: Bozse Originally by: Miss KillSome I dont think its hard to show a timer if u have aggression timer in top left corner of screen, CCP?? If u dont know how to code it, I'll do it for u, free of charge.. It shuldn't be there as we don't need EvE on "easy" mode, CCP will hopefully never listen to the whine for one either. I wouldn't say making the aggro timer visible constitutes easy mode, just the ability to make informed choices. Acting stupidly is one thing, not having the information available to play intelligently is another. Originally by: Roy Batty68 My software has wronged me!!! And it's immediately "sorry". Well, ok then. I suppose I'm not so upset at my software if it appologizes.
Doltish The Arrow Project	Posted - 2007.03.19 19:56:00 - [38] Aggression timer is a mythical thing as far as someone who joins the game and does not read these forums is concerned. You learn it by being a forum-monkey or by word-of-mouth. For a mechanic that is so essential to effective PVPing, it is absurdly unmentioned by the game itself, DevBlogs and playerbase aside.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.19 19:58:00 - [39] Originally by: Doltish Aggression timer is a mythical thing as far as someone who joins the game and does not read these forums is concerned. You learn it by being a forum-monkey or by word-of-mouth. For a mechanic that is so essential to effective PVPing, it is absurdly unmentioned by the game itself, DevBlogs and playerbase aside. Visible timer in 0.0 as well FTW. - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.19 20:03:00 - [40] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Doltish Aggression timer is a mythical thing as far as someone who joins the game and does not read these forums is concerned. You learn it by being a forum-monkey or by word-of-mouth. For a mechanic that is so essential to effective PVPing, it is absurdly unmentioned by the game itself, DevBlogs and playerbase aside. Visible timer in 0.0 as well FTW. TBH, QFT aswell. I don't see how letting people see when its alright to log off is "easy mode". Other than the fact that BoB took out both Titans due to someone screwing up their aggression timer / log out routine.......I wonder why they don't want it in................ --------
Bozse Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.19 20:04:00 - [41] Originally by: Larg Kellein Originally by: Bozse Originally by: Miss KillSome I dont think its hard to show a timer if u have aggression timer in top left corner of screen, CCP?? If u dont know how to code it, I'll do it for u, free of charge.. It shuldn't be there as we don't need EvE on "easy" mode, CCP will hopefully never listen to the whine for one either. I wouldn't say making the aggro timer visible constitutes easy mode, just the ability to make informed choices. Acting stupidly is one thing, not having the information available to play intelligently is another. U allready have the info, u know that the agro timer is 15min hence u shuld act accordingly. I still think it's a bad idea with a sign telling u the timer as it's a step towards easy mode and EvE isn't supposed to be a game where the devs gives u tools to hold your hand warning u on each decission.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.03.19 20:07:00 - [42] It is a known bug and an exploit. Shooting your wrecks to give you new aggro is an exploit and CCP said so several times already. They promised to fix it as soon as possible and I am amazed that this exploit is still around and not fixed. Petition it, give all the data available you have and I hope they will ban the exploiters for some time!
Bozse Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.19 20:17:00 - [43] Originally by: Patch86 I don't see how letting people see when its alright to log off is "easy mode". Other than the fact that BoB took out both Titans due to someone screwing up their aggression timer / log out routine.......I wonder why they don't want it in................ For the love of god can't a guy be allowed to have an opinion without having BoB this BoB that thrown around. Puting a visible timer in is a step towards what i call easy mode, it gives u a visible warning of something u allready know but perhaps didn't think of or choose to ignore / take a chance on hence pushing u towards the decission of waiting the extra minutes untill the warning goes away. A big reason that i with many like this game is that it's harsh and without the extra pointers to make u extra aware to things u allready know, a visible timer goes against this. Make mechanics like this more documented for new players is something i would support if it's not allready tho.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.03.19 20:22:00 - [44] Originally by: Bozse Originally by: Miss KillSome I dont think its hard to show a timer if u have aggression timer in top left corner of screen, CCP?? If u dont know how to code it, I'll do it for u, free of charge.. It shuldn't be there as we don't need EvE on "easy" mode, CCP will hopefully never listen to the whine for one either. Yeah, no infos at all except for 'some' people so that they can fish in the dark and muddy areas. No info so that no one can verify if something was caused by an exploit, cheating or regular gameplay? No infos to the broad masses of people, maybe info of HOW THINGS ARE WORKING only to some? And where did those few got all their knowledge from then, hmm? Sorry Bozse, this doesn't work. If you interact on a larger scale with people you need rules, rules known by everyone. And so everyone must have access to the information if they are within the rules or not if they do this or that. But ahh right, maybe you cannot kill then the next titan while it is offline and you have to do it the 'hard' way and not the 'easy' way... And who is the "we" you are talking about? Certainly not me and I know lots of people who want to log off because they have things to do in real life which are more important than some game and they don't want to wait 50 minutes until they finally can log off without their ship being blown up when they are offline by some cheaters. Btw. CCP said that shooting wrecks/cans to give you aggro is an exploit. So arguing about is without sense.
Bozse Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.19 20:26:00 - [45] I give up. Makes note to start posting with alts so the BoB issue isn't drawn in to each comment.
Nacho Star	Posted - 2007.03.19 20:32:00 - [46] When a number of very large ships are getting tracked down and blown up when their users are offline, one has to wonder what's happening because obviously its not by design. Quote: Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. The poster stated that he logged off with no prior engagement of any kind. Thus, it must be something else such as shooting his wrecks. I may be new to this game but this makes the third exploit I am shown related to large alliance tactics (one of which had BoB members implicated in a screenshot bumping ships out of a POS).
Naim Obeji Minmatar Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.03.19 20:57:00 - [47] Originally by: Kareltje <snip> That said, you decided to play EvE on easy mode by NPC'ing in a carrier, so you deserve to die anyway. I sincerely hope to have my Nidhoggur blown straight to hell if I am ever caught in a belt doing anything other than playing bait or killing someone...lol. I don't want to value judge those that carebear in capital ships. I know people who do it. It's just not for me. Capitals deserve better...heheh.
Naim Obeji Minmatar Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.03.19 21:00:00 - [48] Originally by: Iuris Proeliator Can anyone please explain the logic of getting aggression from someone else... shooting your wreck? The need to "Pop your wrecks" is wasteful, and unfair to pilots that have a heavy cost for ammo. Sure, you make enough Isk in a single rat kill to pay for it, but that's not the point. There's no reason I can imagine that someone shooting your wreck gets you aggro. Granted it's a silly thing (shooting wrecks conferring aggro), but... Even T2 ammo isn't that expensive. Stop being lazy and shoot your wrecks. To not do so is just inviting trouble.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.19 21:05:00 - [49] Originally by: Bozse Originally by: Patch86 I don't see how letting people see when its alright to log off is "easy mode". Other than the fact that BoB took out both Titans due to someone screwing up their aggression timer / log out routine.......I wonder why they don't want it in................ For the love of god can't a guy be allowed to have an opinion without having BoB this BoB that thrown around. Puting a visible timer in is a step towards what i call easy mode, it gives u a visible warning of something u allready know but perhaps didn't think of or choose to ignore / take a chance on hence pushing u towards the decission of waiting the extra minutes untill the warning goes away. A big reason that i with many like this game is that it's harsh and without the extra pointers to make u extra aware to things u allready know, a visible timer goes against this. Make mechanics like this more documented for new players is something i would support if it's not allready tho. Apologies for dragging your Alliance ticker in to it, but the point still stands- the only possible reason I can think of for not wanting the timer visible is if you (the general "you") make a habit of popping people who have logged out too early. Which, rather lamely, is so far the only way a Titan has ever been killed (and this OP is about another capital ship that bit the dust that way). The log out timer is ONLY there to stop people logging out mid combat. No other reason. None. So why exactly, after ratting in an empty system, should someone have to get out a stop watch and time 17 minutes (15 and 2 for luck) before being able to log out of the game? Wouldn't it make much more sense if the game jsut TOLD them when they could log out? The only possible reason for not telling them is so their ship remains in space and can be popped without a pilot while they're offline. And unless they were trying to logoffski from combat or something, thats just ridiculous. --------
Larg Kellein Caldari GTE Corp Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.03.19 21:09:00 - [50] Originally by: Bozse Originally by: Patch86 I don't see how letting people see when its alright to log off is "easy mode". Other than the fact that BoB took out both Titans due to someone screwing up their aggression timer / log out routine.......I wonder why they don't want it in................ For the love of god can't a guy be allowed to have an opinion without having BoB this BoB that thrown around. Puting a visible timer in is a step towards what i call easy mode, it gives u a visible warning of something u allready know but perhaps didn't think of or choose to ignore / take a chance on hence pushing u towards the decission of waiting the extra minutes untill the warning goes away. A big reason that i with many like this game is that it's harsh and without the extra pointers to make u extra aware to things u allready know, a visible timer goes against this. Make mechanics like this more documented for new players is something i would support if it's not allready tho. Totally with you on not dragging alliance affiliation into this. My point is that if shooting wrecks is intended to cause aggro, you should know if someone has shot said wreck, enabling you to make an informed decision to log or not. And yes, you can avoid this by popping your wrecks, but unless you check the forums regularly, how would you know? There's certainly nothing intuitive about it causing aggro. If shooting wrecks is not intended to cause aggro, it needs to be fixed and the whole discussion becomes moot. Originally by: Roy Batty68 My software has wronged me!!! And it's immediately "sorry". Well, ok then. I suppose I'm not so upset at my software if it appologizes.
Deadude Gallente Simtech Productions Kith of Venal	Posted - 2007.03.19 21:10:00 - [51] Originally by: boo3916 lets set things straight before u flame tri, u had aggression and have now lost 2 carriers to us, both times u logged off when aggressed, warping to a pos when aggressed and then logging off still means u have aggression timer, also post with the character that lost the carriers not your alt u lost due to game mechanics, most people know tri and we would not stoop to such underhand tactics, if we did we would get many more kills flame ended Are you blind or you didnt read the killmail? this is the char that fly the carrier, this is the char that lost it. Let me explain first off yes I lost the first carrier after being caught at belt ratting, i admit its a fair fight 20 vs 1, still fair , i didnt whine or petition. It was a fair fight. The second one was park at POs. I rat with raven. In 0.0 theres no visible timer, theres no need you can be shot at anywhere i dont see a use for it. I admit maybe your guys didnt use it to exploit and didnt shoot my wreck , maybe they was just looting my wreck and triggered the eggression timer. But I let you guys think for a min, is it honorable to use ship to wait at the moon near my pos ( yes i did a scan be fore i log off) as it was almost DT , open a cyno and bring in 2 thanatos and wait for me to log off and scan for my carrier which is hanging in deep space, probe it out and kill it fast, and probe my clone and pod me 15 mins later. all this when u can see in local that i'm not there to fight back? this is honor u say? just think Signature Creativity Level 0
Deadude Gallente Simtech Productions Kith of Venal	Posted - 2007.03.19 21:26:00 - [52] Come to think of it. why do we need a aggression for stolen goods in 0.0 It should only be for empire cause you cant shoot at others as and when you want to. And i didnt know it triggers another timer if you get kill while not online? as far as i know you pod insta warp and dissapear if you not online ( like cyno makers) unless you can kill my ship and my pod all within 15 mins and in that case you are prepared for this, thats why you bring in 2 thanathos, it is especially for killing my ship fast so you got time to kill my pod. And I stress again. honorable players dont shoot at ship that its pilot is not online ( you can see in local) unless you pvpers dont look at local at all in 0.0 Signature Creativity Level 0
Kylana Darkfate Minmatar	Posted - 2007.03.20 03:48:00 - [53] Wow, there is a lot of "Go play WoW" fanbois in this thread. Maybe you kiddies should go outside once in awhile and make some real life friends. -------------------------------- "You see, no one would surrender to the Dread Pirate Westley." ...Well how about the Dread Pirate Kylana? ^_^
Bozse Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.20 04:12:00 - [54] Originally by: Larg Kellein Totally with you on not dragging alliance affiliation into this. My point is that if shooting wrecks is intended to cause aggro, you should know if someone has shot said wreck, enabling you to make an informed decision to log or not. And yes, you can avoid this by popping your wrecks, but unless you check the forums regularly, how would you know? There's certainly nothing intuitive about it causing aggro. If shooting wrecks is not intended to cause aggro, it needs to be fixed and the whole discussion becomes moot. If it in fact was a wreck beeing shot to give him agro then i hope that he does get it back from a petition as it's exploating a bug. Originally by: Patch86 Apologies for dragging your Alliance ticker in to it, but the point still stands- the only possible reason I can think of for not wanting the timer visible is if you (the general "you") make a habit of popping people who have logged out too early. Which, rather lamely, is so far the only way a Titan has ever been killed (and this OP is about another capital ship that bit the dust that way). The log out timer is ONLY there to stop people logging out mid combat. No other reason. None. So why exactly, after ratting in an empty system, should someone have to get out a stop watch and time 17 minutes (15 and 2 for luck) before being able to log out of the game? Wouldn't it make much more sense if the game jsut TOLD them when they could log out? The only possible reason for not telling them is so their ship remains in space and can be popped without a pilot while they're offline. And unless they were trying to logoffski from combat or something, thats just ridiculous. It's not about scoring more kills nor not making the information available to people, as i said i fully support the mechanics beeing more documented so everyone knows about them. What i don't want is the sign ingame that tells u to not log as u shuld be aware of what u have done and base your choices on that and not by some visual aid. This might sound harsh but that is just what EvE is, a harsh game where your decissions can have a huge impact on your life in it, so it's not realy about the timer it self it's more about the road your going down by giveing more visual aids and such to "hold your hand" thus preventing you from making bad choices and misstakes.
Ryysa North Face Force Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.20 06:16:00 - [55] Really, i hate these "honour" talks. It's complete bull****. A kill is a kill is a kill. Period. There are some exceptions such as shooting blues, but other than that, if you get killed by a hostile entity who did not use any exploit to gain an unfair advantage, there is nothing wrong with it. 100 v 1 or 1000000 v 1, you screwed up and you die - really easy. N.F.F. Recruitment
Arii Smith	Posted - 2007.03.20 07:43:00 - [56] I do not get how someone can not want a feature. It boggles my mind that a simple visual display is too "noob" for some people.
Dripping Withjoy	Posted - 2007.03.20 08:16:00 - [57] This game really needs the PVP-flagged timer shown on screen as has been suggested. CCP has thought it important enough to implement other on-screen timers so I fail to see why they haven't implemented one that is vital to protecting your ship and pod. The PVP flagging mechanics are very poorly documented in this game. If you were to poll people in this game you would get a whole slew of answers of how the timer works. Shooting wrecks to PVP flag someone is an unintended game feature; it was never meant to work this way and should be patched this patch or the next (answer I was given in response to a petition a few weeks back). I know people have gotten things back through petitions when they lost ships as a result of wreck flagging. I do not know if anyone has been banned or warned for shooting wrecks. It is not officially announced anywhere that I have seen in my searching that this is an exploit. For those that have expressed some confusion over how the timer works here is a rundown: Log with no PVP timer and your ship disappears after 60 seconds regardless of what happens after you log. If you are shot or you shoot someone, you become PVP flagged for 15 minutes. Currently shooting your wreck counts as your ship being shot. This is a bug. If you log out, the 15 minute timer is reset (your ship stays in space for 15 minutes.) If your ship is destroyed, your pod gets a new 15 minute timer. If you change systems, the PVP flag is cleared. The GM also said if you dock the PVP flag is cleared but I didn't test this one and some people told me it was false.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.20 08:33:00 - [58] Originally by: Bozse I give up. Makes note to start posting with alts so the BoB issue isn't drawn in to each comment. hahaha Just use your CAOD alts, its the BoB thing to do these days -------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.20 08:39:00 - [59] Originally by: Bozse Originally by: Larg Kellein Totally with you on not dragging alliance affiliation into this. My point is that if shooting wrecks is intended to cause aggro, you should know if someone has shot said wreck, enabling you to make an informed decision to log or not. And yes, you can avoid this by popping your wrecks, but unless you check the forums regularly, how would you know? There's certainly nothing intuitive about it causing aggro. If shooting wrecks is not intended to cause aggro, it needs to be fixed and the whole discussion becomes moot. If it in fact was a wreck beeing shot to give him agro then i hope that he does get it back from a petition as it's exploating a bug. Originally by: Patch86 Apologies for dragging your Alliance ticker in to it, but the point still stands- the only possible reason I can think of for not wanting the timer visible is if you (the general "you") make a habit of popping people who have logged out too early. Which, rather lamely, is so far the only way a Titan has ever been killed (and this OP is about another capital ship that bit the dust that way). The log out timer is ONLY there to stop people logging out mid combat. No other reason. None. So why exactly, after ratting in an empty system, should someone have to get out a stop watch and time 17 minutes (15 and 2 for luck) before being able to log out of the game? Wouldn't it make much more sense if the game jsut TOLD them when they could log out? The only possible reason for not telling them is so their ship remains in space and can be popped without a pilot while they're offline. And unless they were trying to logoffski from combat or something, thats just ridiculous. It's not about scoring more kills nor not making the information available to people, as i said i fully support the mechanics beeing more documented so everyone knows about them. What i don't want is the sign ingame that tells u to not log as u shuld be aware of what u have done and base your choices on that and not by some visual aid. This might sound harsh but that is just what EvE is, a harsh game where your decissions can have a huge impact on your life in it, so it's not realy about the timer it self it's more about the road your going down by giveing more visual aids and such to "hold your hand" thus preventing you from making bad choices and misstakes. The whole aggro system is artificial. Having a timer to show when you are aggroed according to the system would just get rid of a lot of abuse.as well as frustration over bugs. Aside from people logging directly as a means to avoid combat, aggro should not be a tool to kill people who are offline because they were convinced it was safe to logoff. Combine that with the utter IDIOCY of forcing an emergency warp for anyone who is sitting at a POS for example, and it would only be fair to remove the potential for abuse as well as remove a big source of frustration for players who try to play the game legitimately. -------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft.
Bozse Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.20 08:54:00 - [60] Edited by: Bozse on 20/03/2007 08:55:27 Originally by: Malachon Draco The whole aggro system is artificial. Having a timer to show when you are aggroed according to the system would just get rid of a lot of abuse.as well as frustration over bugs. Aside from people logging directly as a means to avoid combat, aggro should not be a tool to kill people who are offline because they were convinced it was safe to logoff. Combine that with the utter IDIOCY of forcing an emergency warp for anyone who is sitting at a POS for example, and it would only be fair to remove the potential for abuse as well as remove a big source of frustration for players who try to play the game legitimately. Well that's where we see things different, i don't mind people knowing what the timer is and how it works, what i do mind is that thos time is showed in there faces to keep them constantly reminded of it. As i said EvE is harsh and shuld continue to be just that for people choosing to ignore the mechanics or just not paying enough attention to what they are doing, so it's not about beeing a tool to kill people there is plenty of ways to kill people anyway but as a person chose to be in a possition where he gets attacked or attacks he shuld allso be aware of how the game works and make he's following decissions accordingly and if he chooses to log with the timer he will most likely be killed as he shuld be for ignoring how the game works. I agree with u that the POS warpout shuld be removed. Edit: In my view the agro timer displayed on screen would be the same as asking to having an extra popup warning u that the market price is 1000 times higher then the region avg to warn u even if u allready klicked accept to buy the item.
Ryysa North Face Force Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.20 09:05:00 - [61] Originally by: Bozse Edit: In my view the agro timer displayed on screen would be the same as asking to having an extra popup warning u that the market price is 1000 times higher then the region avg to warn u even if u allready klicked accept to buy the item. There is a such warning already. N.F.F. Recruitment
OneSock PLuSQuAMPERFEkT iNc	Posted - 2007.03.20 09:21:00 - [62] Originally by: Bozse As i said EvE is harsh and shuld continue to be just that for people choosing to ignore the mechanics or just not paying enough attention to what they are doing, so it's not about beeing a tool to kill people there is plenty of ways to kill people anyway but as a person chose to be in a possition where he gets attacked or attacks he shuld allso be aware of how the game works and make he's following decissions accordingly and if he chooses to log with the timer he will most likely be killed as he shuld be for ignoring how the game works. Which is fair enough except for the number of bugs etc such as wreck shooting. Unless CCP can be sure there are no bugs in the agro system then I think it's reasonable there should be an indicator to show you are still agro'd.
Necronomicon Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.20 10:11:00 - [63] 1. I do not think for one moment that TRI would stoop to this practise, they are quite capable of killing without resorting to lame/exploitative tactics. 2. I actually agree with Bozse on the easy mode. 3. Buy a G15 keyboard, and set up the countdown timer ;) Carlsberg dont make Eve Pilots, but if they did, i wouldnt be one of them.
Bozse Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.20 10:14:00 - [64] Originally by: Ryysa Originally by: Bozse Edit: In my view the agro timer displayed on screen would be the same as asking to having an extra popup warning u that the market price is 1000 times higher then the region avg to warn u even if u allready klicked accept to buy the item. There is a such warning already. No what i mean is after u press the button that will transfer the item to your hangar, in other words an extra warning dispite the fact that u allready screwed up to warn and ask u again.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.20 10:40:00 - [65] My bottomline is this: Are players who try to play the game in a legitimate manner being frustrated and exploited against due to the aggro mechanic as it currently is. Answer, yes. Best way to resolve the frustration and exploiting is a timer. If you don't want it in an 'in your face' manner because it would be 'too easy', I'd be fine with adding a page to say the character information screen where you can see your aggro timer. Then people still have to check themselves if they have aggro or not, but are able to do so when needed. IMO allowing for issues that are beyond the control of players to cause great frustration, loss and often requires lots of GM involvement, while said players have been playing legitimately is not a good thing. Added to that is of course that it is a bloody disgrace for CCP to protect players who wait until their opponent has logged off to go try and kill them and call it legitimate gameplay... -------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft.
Sokratesz Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2007.03.20 10:45:00 - [66] Edited by: Sokratesz on 20/03/2007 10:43:26 Edited by: Sokratesz on 20/03/2007 10:42:34 They could add the following: Camp to desktop (like everquest has) You can initiate this anywhere in space, even within POS fields. You press a button and are asked for confirmation, after which a timer starts (5 minutes). During the timer, no modules can be activated and your ship cannot move. You can be locked and engaged, though, and this will break the procedure. At the end of the timer you are, again, asked for confirmation, after which your ship dissappears from space and the game quits. Anywhere during the timer you can abort the process, but will have to re-start it fully again if you wish so. Upon login your ship will appear 1M km. away from the spot you were and warp back to it (while keeping the rules of deadspace areas etc. in account). This will provide a safe way for people to log out if they know they will have to by 5 mins in advance... March 2007; the time common sense took control at CCP. Now all they need to do is fix DDD, carriers, POS & NOS.
Bozse Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.20 10:46:00 - [67] Originally by: Malachon Draco If you don't want it in an 'in your face' manner because it would be 'too easy', I'd be fine with adding a page to say the character information screen where you can see your aggro timer. That would be fine from my pov, aslong as it's not a constant reminder in the corner of your eye.
Larg Kellein Caldari GTE Corp Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.03.20 11:44:00 - [68] Originally by: Malachon Draco If you don't want it in an 'in your face' manner because it would be 'too easy', I'd be fine with adding a page to say the character information screen where you can see your aggro timer. Then people still have to check themselves if they have aggro or not, but are able to do so when needed. Good compromise, I think it'd be hard to disagree with this suggestion. Off to the much ignored suggestion forum you go. And bring this cookie with you. Originally by: Roy Batty68 My software has wronged me!!! And it's immediately "sorry". Well, ok then. I suppose I'm not so upset at my software if it appologizes.
RiotRick Black-Sun Insomnia.	Posted - 2007.03.20 11:56:00 - [69] Originally by: Deadude The second one was park at POs. I rat with raven. In 0.0 theres no visible timer, theres no need you can be shot at anywhere i dont see a use for it. I admit maybe your guys didnt use it to exploit and didnt shoot my wreck , maybe they was just looting my wreck and triggered the eggression timer. Dude... warp to POS, stay logged in. Make some coffee. Log out after 15 minutes -> Carrier safe. You got ganked because of your own mistake.
Master Spoonman Momentum. Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.03.20 12:24:00 - [70] Originally by: Bozse U allready have the info, u know that the agro timer is 15min hence u shuld act accordingly.[/quote I think this was the point of the OP's argument. He DIDN'T have the information. He didn't know his wrecks were being shot at, and hence didn't know that he had the aggro timer. Nothing he did gave him the aggro timer, so how was he supposed to know that he had one? Originally by: RiotRick Dude... warp to POS, stay logged in. Make some coffee. Log out after 15 minutes -> Carrier safe. You got ganked because of your own mistake. Ok, sometimes real life gets in the way and you just have to leave the game. But even if that wasn't the case, how would that have helped him? You don't think his aggressors would keep shooting his wrecks every now and then to restart the aggro? He would have no idea when it was safe to log and when the newest batch of '15 minute agro timer' was up. *** Special thanks to Zurtur to making this signature for me
katabactic	Posted - 2007.03.20 12:40:00 - [71] Im a nub corper up in hi-sec always curiously reading these forums, I'd like to think I know a little bit about eve, but this only makes me ask more questions.. I remember if i shoot at someone flaged for stealing my ore a 15 minute timer begins for me to shoot them then 15minutes for them to counter me. the timer is always extended 15 minutes from the last shot... so you could theoretially fight forever just by continuing to shoot eachother.. Now what stops someone from nosing/webbing/tapping a wreck with a civvy gat for the rest of its natural life? Does that ammount to what, I would call CCP's Ultimate ninja pirate agro exploiter weapon of doom labeled, creatively by me the "3hour remote dictor sphere satchel attached to anyone who has a wreck out in the battlefield continously triggerable bomb"???? Please tell me im wrong, this didnt exist at one point and eve was played as it should. Me and my corp certainly wont be leaving hi-sec untill junk like this get sorted out.
Master Spoonman Momentum. Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.03.20 12:48:00 - [72] Originally by: katabactic Now what stops someone from nosing/webbing/tapping a wreck with a civvy gat for the rest of its natural life? Does that ammount to what, I would call CCP's Ultimate ninja pirate agro exploiter weapon of doom labeled, creatively by me the "3hour remote dictor sphere satchel attached to anyone who has a wreck out in the battlefield continously triggerable bomb"???? Yes and no. If the character is logged in and you NOS/web/whatever his wreck forever, he will have a permanent aggro timer. If the character then logs out, the timer won't refresh no matter what you do to his wreck (it'll only restart if you kill his ship, so you'll have 15 minutes to probe out his pod and kill it). So he'll log out with a 15 minute timer without possibly even knowing it. *** Special thanks to Zurtur to making this signature for me
Raziel	Posted - 2007.03.20 12:50:00 - [73] Originally by: Bozse I give up. Makes note to start posting with alts so the BoB issue isn't drawn in to each comment. Or better yet, get out of the forums and get back to work on the game. A patch is being released and Devs (you) are wasting time on the forums? Give us our timer so I can get rid of this stopwatch I leave sitting next to me. /emote hates BoD
Barbarellas Daughter Lonely Barbarella	Posted - 2007.03.20 13:03:00 - [74] Originally by: Bozse ...stuff... ...where the devs gives u tools...
Spazmoid Spectrum Solutions INC Kith of Venal	Posted - 2007.03.20 13:09:00 - [75] Originally by: Necronomicon 1. I do not think for one moment that TRI would stoop to this practise, they are quite capable of killing without resorting to lame/exploitative tactics. 2. I actually agree with Bozse on the easy mode. 3. Buy a G15 keyboard, and set up the countdown timer ;) Tri now have Viper Squad(who were blue to us before joining TRI) in their ranks, a couple of members of said corp thought it would be fun to have their second/third acoounts live nearby in Venal offline and in a Noob corp, so when they saw Blues npcing they would log on these other accounts and kill the npcers .I know this was brought up before and we all decided that the Vipers would never do this but to me theres no doubt about it. My point is Tri may be Honourable but some members of Vipers are not. Only one non Viper Tri is on the carrier kill.
Bozse Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.20 16:48:00 - [76] Originally by: Master Spoonman I think this was the point of the OP's argument. He DIDN'T have the information. He didn't know his wrecks were being shot at, and hence didn't know that he had the aggro timer. Nothing he did gave him the aggro timer, so how was he supposed to know that he had one? I was talking about the adition of a visible timer in general not about this specific incident, i allso said that if this in fact was a case of he's wreck beeing shot i hope he get's he's ship back as it's exploating a bug. Originally by: Raziel Or better yet, get out of the forums and get back to work on the game. A patch is being released and Devs (you) are wasting time on the forums? Give us our timer so I can get rid of this stopwatch I leave sitting next to me. /emote hates BoD Can't give that one more then 1/10 sorry.
Iuris Proeliator Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.03.20 19:00:00 - [77] Bozse, I completely agree on the "no easy" mode logic. I don't come from WoW, I come from EQ, where many players share the hatred of games that a child with several mental deficencies could play well online ::cough:: WoW ::cough::. The problem is, the aggro timer system is currently broken, and that puts people at an unrealistic risk. The earlier responses I got were not satisfactory to explaining the logic behind wrecks giving the player who made them aggro. If you shoot me, I understand aggression on us both, as it's a mutual hostile act ((Since you have to be within range.)) But stealing from wrecks/shooting wrecks should ONLY give aggression to the player involved in the action, not the person who created the wreck. Let's say I'm ratting in my drake, and I see several pirates jump into the system, and I'm the only other one there, so I make a beeline to get the hell out, which would be the smart thing to do, since I'm unaware of their ship/skill level, I just know I'm outn umbered. The idea that they can sit there with one Nossing a wreck all day gaining ME an aggression timer is utterly ridiculous. I do concur though that it'd be fine to add it as a character sheet tab or something. Just something you have to check, but not an overt display so as to make it glaringly obvious. It's often not a misunderstanding of game mechanics that kills, it's carelessness, and carelessness SHOULD be rewarded with death. I got careless, I lost a Raven, recently. It's my fault. But this is a situation where there is a broken mechanic, admitted by CCP, but you lack the ability to make an informed decision. As for the whole BoB thing, you're one of the big boys. That's what comes with being big. It's like a celebrity. Want to in the next big movie, there's going to be paparazzi, just ignore it and pass through. But realize it's going to be there. I'm not commenting on the whole Titan/aggro thing becuase I think as cool as Titans are, they're inherently broken just as a concept. But that's an argument for another thread.
Tupaarnaq Nizhoni	Posted - 2007.03.20 19:10:00 - [78] Originally by: Iuris Proeliator Let's say I'm ratting in my drake, and I see several pirates jump into the system, and I'm the only other one there, so I make a beeline to get the hell out, which would be the smart thing to do, since I'm unaware of their ship/skill level, I just know I'm outn umbered. The idea that they can sit there with one Nossing a wreck all day gaining ME an aggression timer is utterly ridiculous. This is the main problem really. Right now if you have to warp out of a belt and don't have time to pop the wreck you'd have to wait a few hours for the wrecks to despawn before you can log off. Doesn't make a lot of sense. Shooting rats give you a timer anyway so attackers still have 15 minutes to find you if you don't have a cloak or POS.
Bozse Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.20 19:51:00 - [79] Originally by: Iuris Proeliator Bozse, I completely agree on the "no easy" mode logic. I don't come from WoW, I come from EQ, where many players share the hatred of games that a child with several mental deficencies could play well online ::cough:: WoW ::cough::. The problem is, the aggro timer system is currently broken, and that puts people at an unrealistic risk. The earlier responses I got were not satisfactory to explaining the logic behind wrecks giving the player who made them aggro. If you shoot me, I understand aggression on us both, as it's a mutual hostile act ((Since you have to be within range.)) But stealing from wrecks/shooting wrecks should ONLY give aggression to the player involved in the action, not the person who created the wreck. Let's say I'm ratting in my drake, and I see several pirates jump into the system, and I'm the only other one there, so I make a beeline to get the hell out, which would be the smart thing to do, since I'm unaware of their ship/skill level, I just know I'm outn umbered. The idea that they can sit there with one Nossing a wreck all day gaining ME an aggression timer is utterly ridiculous. I do concur though that it'd be fine to add it as a character sheet tab or something. Just something you have to check, but not an overt display so as to make it glaringly obvious. It's often not a misunderstanding of game mechanics that kills, it's carelessness, and carelessness SHOULD be rewarded with death. I got careless, I lost a Raven, recently. It's my fault. But this is a situation where there is a broken mechanic, admitted by CCP, but you lack the ability to make an informed decision. I agree, thing is it's better to fix the real problem as in wreck causing agro instead of asking for features that makes what i call "easy mode" hence somewhat of a hijack of this tread =) Although the agro timer in char sheet is an option that still leaves room for bad decissions and misstakes so im all for that if it's to be put in to game at all. Originally by: Iuris Proeliator As for the whole BoB thing, you're one of the big boys. That's what comes with being big. It's like a celebrity. Want to in the next big movie, there's going to be paparazzi, just ignore it and pass through. But realize it's going to be there. I'm not commenting on the whole Titan/aggro thing becuase I think as cool as Titans are, they're inherently broken just as a concept. But that's an argument for another thread. I suppose ur right and it is something i have to live with to some extent, even expect answers like Raziel's but when it's included in argument of game mechanics it tends to be some what silly as my opinion on the subject has nothing to do with my ingame affiliations.
Melisa Zeal	Posted - 2007.03.28 08:41:00 - [80] Hmm, well reguardless of weather he was NPCing in a carrier or not, he warped to what was suppose to be a SS and logged. I think Triv is wrong in the flaming and this seems kinda underhanded. Just my opinion on this but I think he should get reembursed
w0rmy Intensive CareBearz	Posted - 2007.03.28 09:23:00 - [81] Originally by: Deadude I lost a carrier few days back and i'm not even online. I did some research and found out that if someone shoot your rat wrecks it will trigger the 15 mn aggresion timer, Is this true? The guys who killed me was waiting for me to log off and probe my carrier and killed it but my pod was kill 15mins later (its all in the killmail) and i log off from pos with no prior engagement of anykind. This shows that they exploit the game mechanics to get big kills. CCP should do something about it.I log in after dt to find myself in my clone stn good fight Jeikon has stated that it is an exploit to shoot cans to flag n aggro, so petetion it. Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg
YodaDuke Caldari Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.03.28 09:34:00 - [82] There is a way around being shot after you log off even if they shoot one of your cans to flag agro (if this still works) Log out and immediatly log back in on another character on the same account, as you can't have 2 characters in game on the same account the first one that logged out would be removed immediatly from the game therefore no 15 min agro timer for you to be killed by the can flagger If this is an exploit to avoid the lame tactic of can flagging then oopsy!!! ----------------------------------------------- People with fat fingers should get keyboards with larger buttons
Captain PoopiePants	Posted - 2007.03.28 11:12:00 - [83] Originally by: Bozse I give up. Makes note to start posting with alts so the BoB issue isn't drawn in to each comment. I lol'd.
Odinegras	Posted - 2007.03.28 14:24:00 - [84] There are some macro ratter in a system not far from me and i want to kill them, how do i get the 15minute timer to start so i can kill them as they log off nearly as soon as i jump into the system, Ive tried the shooting a wreck but that doesnt seem to do the job, any suggestions? Also when they log back in will they appear where they where as i can scan them down in 30seconds before there ships actually disappears?
Rabbitual Ferrier	Posted - 2007.03.28 14:56:00 - [85] Edited by: Rabbitual Ferrier on 28/03/2007 15:02:17 Originally by: Kareltje I believe that shooting wrecks to keep aggro going is an exploit in theory. I've heard that the GM's can't see what caused your aggro, they can only see that you had aggro. That could do with a bit of change imho. That said, you decided to play EvE on easy mode by NPC'ing in a carrier, so you deserve to die anyway. Not even in Theory. Devs and GMs have openly said that this is a direct exploit (shooting wrecks). Also Logout/login is an exploit. Both are classed as serious enough to get players banned
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.03.28 15:00:00 - [86] Originally by: Rabbitual Ferrier Originally by: Kareltje I believe that shooting wrecks to keep aggro going is an exploit in theory. I've heard that the GM's can't see what caused your aggro, they can only see that you had aggro. That could do with a bit of change imho. That said, you decided to play EvE on easy mode by NPC'ing in a carrier, so you deserve to die anyway. Not even in Theory. Devs and GMs have openly said that this is a direct exploit (shooting wrecks). If that's the case then a lot of people would be banned, not just Tri (allegedly). What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Grapez SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.31 09:32:00 - [87] Originally by: Doltish Aggression timer is a mythical thing as far as someone who joins the game and does not read these forums is concerned. You learn it by being a forum-monkey or by word-of-mouth. For a mechanic that is so essential to effective PVPing, it is absurdly unmentioned by the game itself, DevBlogs and playerbase aside. Best thing written in this thread. Add this info to the tutorial. @º¬íí-T«+ºH for all your political humor needs
Hennry Fromer Gallente radiated space gerbils	Posted - 2007.03.31 09:53:00 - [88] Originally by: Malachon Draco The whole aggro system is artificial. Having a timer to show when you are aggroed according to the system would just get rid of a lot of abuse.as well as frustration over bugs. Aside from people logging directly as a means to avoid combat, aggro should not be a tool to kill people who are offline because they were convinced it was safe to logoff. Combine that with the utter IDIOCY of forcing an emergency warp for anyone who is sitting at a POS for example, and it would only be fair to remove the potential for abuse as well as remove a big source of frustration for players who try to play the game legitimately. The mechanics to not E-warp are there, added for bubbles and log-outs, would it be possible to code POS shielding as a non-warping event as well?
Hennry Fromer Gallente radiated space gerbils	Posted - 2007.03.31 09:54:00 - [89] Originally by: Bozse No what i mean is after u press the button that will transfer the item to your hangar, in other words an extra warning dispite the fact that u allready screwed up to warn and ask u again. It worked for windows just look at Vista.
Alex SOKOLOFF Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.03.31 11:07:00 - [90] Why dont make agrotimer showing when you are in 0.0 space ? That should cut down number of petitions
Neuromandis EPSILON TEAM Terror In The System	Posted - 2007.04.01 02:20:00 - [91] Edited by: Neuromandis on 01/04/2007 02:16:56 I am NOT a fan of easymode in general. That said: Metagaming should not add challenges and as far as possible complexities to gaming. There is no point in adding USELESS mechanics to increase the challenge. I should get no advantage whatsoever by a stopwatch by the keyboard. Aggro timer is a meta-gaming mechanic implemented for various gaming reasons (not always dying when you logoff, not being saved when you logoff) et.c. It is a completely meta-game mechanic. As a simple meta-gaming mechanic, it needs an equally simple tool to prevent it from adding challenges and complexity to gameplay. In short: just make 0.0 the timer visible and be done with it (as it already is in low sec!!) it is completely pointless not to. Why NOT let someone know when it is safe to close his computer? To get easymode-kills? I wish to think that the challenges in eve go a little beyond having to count 15 minutes to log off or being really really tidy leaving no wrecks - that kind of challenge in my view is beneath eve, with its myriade game challenges it needs no meta-game ones. I tend to think that the only "advantage" by not having the 0.0 timer visible are more easy kills and generally meta-kills (shooting wrecks, using spies to stealth-aggro unsuspecting people and the like). I for once don't want meta kills, thank you very much. Someone loggs off with a timer, I'll probe him and kill him, if he takes that chance. But up to there - stealth aggroing him shouldn't be possible.
Le Skunk Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.01 03:00:00 - [92] Its BOB at it again. Get used to it SKUNK "i heard a rumor BOB have carriers in WoW"

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