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Lissa Winters
Perkone Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2011.12.22 12:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ok, so I spent the morning looking at new ships, and I noticed something. Caldari tends to get range buffs on their ships and Gallente gets tracking/damage buffs.
If Caldari are supposed to be using rails, which already give EXCEPTIONAL range and have POOR tracking why do Gallente ships have better Rail bonuses?
I've been spoiled by Amarr space + laser boat so long, and i'd like to try some rail, especially with CCPs commitment to making them viable (in my opinion this means making Rails more like Beam Lasers, since they are fixed damage type and should outperform Artillery on this alone) but Caldari rail platforms leave alot to be desired.
I'd be giving up the damage of lasers and gaining in return more range than could ever be considered practical.
I expect mucho flame, and don't really care. I just don't see how Caldari can be a balanced race when our signature weapons are super long range missiles and super long range hybrids. We need something that excels in the 40-100km ranges that most practical combat takes place in. Our weapons fail to compliment each other, while Gallente have wonderful long range drones (sentrys) and blasters for close up. (Railguns work great on their ships, as stated above)
Amarr get Lasers, a really nice weapon at any range.
Minmatar get Auto cannons for close work and arty for long ranges. I hear good things about both, especially with flexidamage. |

Rel'k Bloodlor
Mecha Enterprises Fleet
0
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Posted - 2011.12.22 12:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
The obsesive longe range on caldari boats lets you use anti-matter all the time (thus making it the best time), and you should have the lows for tracking/damage mods. Well on larger hulls the bonus to range is fantastic on....blasters. They rarely get just a bonus to longe range missiles, just Ken damage/ships wepons size launchers Also just wait till you realize that they take almost as much cap, you don't get reductions to cap use, and the ammo is HUGE.
I feel ya tho... as a Caldari pilot I stick to missles and I cross trained Ammar for there turret boats. |

Lissa Winters
Perkone Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 12:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:The obsesive longe range on caldari boats lets you use anti-matter all the time (thus making it the best time), and you should have the lows for tracking/damage mods.
Well that's a problem.
If the Rokh had a 25% damage bonus instead of a Range bonus I could cycle my ammo for flexible range. The Rokh can use antimatter at obscene ranges, yes but antimatter is fighting the lack of a damage bonus in the first place, and losing because there's nothing to trade-off once you're in the antimatter range for a ship that has no range bonus. (But a damage bonus) |

Liam Mirren
38
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Posted - 2011.12.22 12:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
The problem is the archaic and stubborn approach the DEVS have to the "racial values". I'm not saying "out with the old", far from it in fact, but they really do need to have a good look at the design ideas they made back then, because not all of them make good sense these days (or ever).
Giving the Caldari turret based ships the same bonus as the Naga would help a lot and make them more on par with others. The problem you create by doing that is "and what about Gallente", well they need their dps upped a little bit more anyway (rather than destroying the Gallente niche by making them as versatile as ACs I'd rather have them more deadly within their niche) so if they do both things that could work out well. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. |

Rel'k Bloodlor
Mecha Enterprises Fleet
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 12:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
I think most of the problem comes from the shared nature of hybrids belonging to two races. This makes how you balance them so much harder. The dogma of the two races (Caldari/Gallente) are very different so getting a weapons platform that works with long range and high DPS well simotausly not giving the range side to much DPS or giving the DPS to much range extremely hard. Also the dogma of Gallente is rooted in versatility, you see this in there slot lay outs and the very nature of drones.(they do every thing, and are not dependent on slot use) and the dogma of caldari is specialization How dose one make this fair?
I strongly dislike the way both platforms preform. They are the "alleged" mixing of both energy weapons and projectiles, and yet have very little of there strengths and alot of there weaknesses. equal to or highest CPU use, take twice the resources to fire using both cap and ammo(about half the base cap and the hopper can hold more volume but the ammo is twice the size), they need to reload*, They posses no ability to control damage types its always majority KEN minority THERM (but like lazors in T2 ammo they get a few close to 50/50 splits) they have the same base rate of fire as lazors or slightly more. The only thing they walk away with is a middle ground on the need of power grid.*
*Both recently addresses but IMHO still not hybrid enuf |

Nalha Saldana
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
49
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Posted - 2011.12.22 12:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Maelstrom - ROF + shield boosting Hyperion - Damage + armor rep Abaddon - Damage + resists Rokh - Range + resists, wtf?
Rails have good range, give rokh and ferox damage instead of range bonus! |

Cheshire Katt
Tirpitz Innovations Deus Malus
2
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Posted - 2011.12.22 13:28:00 -
[7] - Quote
Nalha Saldana wrote:Maelstrom - ROF + shield boosting Hyperion - Damage + armor rep Abaddon - Damage + resists Rokh - Range + resists, wtf?
Rails have good range, give rokh and ferox damage instead of range bonus!
+1
|

Smabs
Higher Than Everest BricK sQuAD.
8
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Posted - 2011.12.22 14:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
Swapping the range for damage bonuses would result in an 800dps ferox and 1300dps rokh. That actually sounds really awesome but I dunno if that'd be a good idea or not. |

Lissa Winters
Perkone Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 14:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
Hyperion has a hybrid damage bonus and 8 high slots. So it would have the same. |

Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
89
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 14:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
Lissa Winters wrote:Hyperion has a hybrid damage bonus and 8 high slots. So it would have the same. yep that would make them just too similar increase resist bonus to 10% or give other things to caldari like +1 mid cpu and pg |

Smabs
Higher Than Everest BricK sQuAD.
8
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 14:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
That's true. But then again the hyperion has the rep bonus instead of something more useful too. |

Lissa Winters
Perkone Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 15:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:Lissa Winters wrote:Hyperion has a hybrid damage bonus and 8 high slots. So it would have the same. yep that would make them just too similar increase resist bonus to 10% or give other things to caldari like +1 mid cpu and pg
It would make them similar, yes. But at the same time Damage is the most highly prized bonus. If Gallente hybrid ships get it and Caldari don't then Caldari hybrid ships will continue to be in the ghetto.
Could give the Rokh a bonus to its capacitor (in basic stats) and give it rate of fire? Though I think if anything Rate of Fire is better for blasters and damage better for rails.
Blasters are a particle 'stream' and rails are supposed to be long range and hard hitting.
|

Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
94
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 17:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
Yeah dmg is good ,but there are other good bonuses which wouldnt make it a bad copy of another race. Gall is all about dmg thats for sure , so caldari should take other thing as its style.
I would go for utility/tank/reliability, by giving them more mids and fitting,so utility high can be fitted. You could choose more ewar or shield tank , this could compensate for ****** speed and medicore dps low alpha,and the dozen other disadvantages caldari/hybrid have.
Oh and this is a game so rl physics or anything is not relevant at all. And even with dmg bonus rails alpha is nowhere near arties, if somebody wants alpha they have to use arties :( |

Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
60
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 17:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
(Directed at the OP, not Naomi) ... Have you ever actually looked at a decent Rokh fit? Do you have any idea what that ship is capable of if the one fitting it isn't a dribbling moron? With rails it can lob a good 600 DPS out to 70km range, with the option of firing further if it needs to without losing much DPS. Another thing worth noting is that it's doing that with faction ammo rather than the tracking-crippling spike. 70km range too far for you? Load up Javelin ammo. Now you're firing at 30-35 and have better tracking to boot. Oh and while it's doing all this, it's also mounting a 120k EHP buffer. (Which can be increased to around 136k with one module swap.)
So yeah, the Rokh is perfectly capable at the ranges you listed, and a damage bonus would only make it an inferior ripoff of the Megathron/Hyperion.
Now let's talk blasters. Even without a damage bonus, the Rokh can put out around 900 DPS. Not bad but not ground-breaking either - until you load up null, and are now firing at a 20km optimal with another 25 falloff or so and still doing 700 DPS.
The Naga also makes a superb rail platform, but again only if you're not an idiot.
Basically: you're whining about nothing. Learn to fly or train Gallente.
While we're on the Caldari hybrid platform subject, let's talk Ferox: post buff this thing now does 600 DPS with a 66-73k buffer (depending on web fit or not) or can do about 450 DPS to 30km and a 70k EHP buffer with rails. The only reason it's not doing better than this is the fact it's a tier 1 BC rather than a tier 2 as opposed to a broken bonus.
Quote: I know this has no relevance to CCP, but Minmatar Artillery is a joke compared with rails in a technology sense. Why is it that the race that still uses present day tech for their weapons superior in so many respects to a currently theoretical weapon like a railgun that fires even more spectacular antimatter shells?
I believe antimatter payloads fired at a a sizeable percentage of the speed of light would leave nuclear and fusion weapons in the dust, damage wise, from the science point of view. Infact lasers would probably be pretty paltry by comparison.
EVE is not a realistic game, thus realism should have no influence on balance. Ever. |

Lissa Winters
Perkone Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 20:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:(Directed at the OP, not Naomi) With rails it can lob a good 600 DPS out to 70km range
Tachyon Lasers don't need a range bonus to do half again as much.
My Abaddon can do about 800+ from guns at 60km. Cap stable. |

Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
60
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 20:45:00 -
[16] - Quote
Please show me your 800 DPS 60km range Tachyon Abaddon. In fact those guns are a pretty stupid example all round as they utterly gimp the fit on almost any ship you use them on. A Rokh can fit a full rack of 425mms with no fitting mods.
I see megapulse can do 700 DPS or so at 60km but need 3 tracking comps to do so.
Neither fit is cap stable without a booster even at all 5 skills. |

Lissa Winters
Perkone Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 20:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote: I see megapulse can do 700 DPS or so at 60km but need 3 tracking comps to do so.
Can't be bothered showing every pirate and suicide ganker what I fly. But mine does an easy 800dps at 60km with a respectable permatank. 1000 dps at 30km
If you care to try some configs you'll know thats possible. |

Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
60
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 20:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
Quote:Can't be bothered showing every pirate and suicide ganker what I fly. 1. No evidence = no argument. 2. You're implying there that it's pimp fitted, and thus also irrelevant here.
And like I said, I know it's perfectly possible to get that kind of DPS/range with tachyons - but what I also know is they're absurdly hard to fit and by using them at all you've gimped yourself in at least one way. |

Lissa Winters
Perkone Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 21:03:00 -
[19] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Quote:Can't be bothered showing every pirate and suicide ganker what I fly. 1. No evidence = no argument. 2. You're implying there that it's pimp fitted, and thus also irrelevant here. And like I said, I know it's perfectly possible to get that kind of DPS/range with tachyons - but what I also know is they're absurdly hard to fit and by using them at all you've gimped yourself in at least one way.
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Megapulse + Scorch is a base range of 50 + 1 Tracking Enhancer and you have ~60km, as far as 'three tracking computers' goes. ... No, Scorch base range is 45k, add a TE and you have 52, then you need to throw TCs on. And that TE has taken up another low slot, so either tank or DPS has suffered. Drop a heat sink and you're down to 650 DPS, drop a tank mod and you lose anything up to 20k EHP.
You don't include falloff in range?
You're trying to persuade -me- that Rokh is comparable with Abaddon. Or is my opinion supposed to be judged based on evidence by a third party?
I don't find it plausible that rails do less damage and the Rokh which has no bonus and can be competitive with the Abaddon which has a more powerful weapon and a damage bonus.
If you could explain to me what this 'x factor' is I could adjust for it.
I guess your fit includes damage rigs and the recent 10% buff to get 600dps? |

Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
60
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 21:09:00 -
[20] - Quote
Quote:You don't include falloff in range? You don't appear to factor the damage loss from falloff in, so no.
Quote:You're trying to persuade -me- that Rokh is comparable with Abaddon. Umm, no, I'm saying that the Rokh is fine as-is and that swapping the range bonus for something else is idiocy. The Abaddon is in a tier of its own and comparing any battleship to it for blob warfare is going to come out unfavourably.
(Having said that, one thing it doesn't do well is using tachs)
Hang on, I've just noticed this actually:
Quote:but mine does an easy 800dps at 60km with a respectable permatank. ... Are you seriously bringing a carebearmobile into a PVP balance discussion? Or are you just using the wrong term for buffer?
Quote:I guess your fit includes damage rigs and the recent 10% buff to get 600dps? Doesn't need damage rigs, navy AM and 3 mag stabs gets 600 at 70k range. |

Cheiftan
Shinryaku Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 21:16:00 -
[21] - Quote
Lissa Winters wrote: You don't include falloff in range?
Not sure if serious? |

Lissa Winters
Perkone Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 21:16:00 -
[22] - Quote
I haven't indicated PvP anywhere in my posts, actually, except that I was worried about suicide gankers if I was in the habit of posting fits, due more to paranoia than anything else. Is Rokh really a top choice in PvP? You seemed to suggest the Abaddon had it totally outclassed and outgunned, so I assume no? |

Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
60
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 21:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ah, ok then, so if this isn't about PVP then the entire point is moot as weapons aren't balanced around PVE. (And FYI: the Rokh outperforms the Abaddon vs some rats, and vice versa.) |

Lissa Winters
Perkone Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 21:28:00 -
[24] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:The entire point is moot as weapons aren't balanced around PVE.
Why not? I think I was complaining that range is objectively less useful than damage when a weapon inherently has sufficent range to begin with. Show me where i've subdivided into a single aspect of the game?
The Rokh and the Raven are both typically used for long range damage. Wheres Caldari's medium range damage that is competitive?
Rails are Long. Missiles are Long. Blasters are extremely short, and not really Caldari weapons.
Every race gets a torpedo boat. (SB)
There's a big hole when it comes to killing, rather than sniping. |

Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
60
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 21:33:00 -
[25] - Quote
Quote:Why not? I think I was complaining that range is objectively less useful than damage when a weapon inherently has sufficent range to begin with. Show me where i've subdivided into a single aspect of the game?
At the point where you hinted that your Abaddon was suicide-gank worthy and perma-tanks - which means you were using a PVE ship for comparison. Thus: fail.
Quote:The Rokh and the Raven are both typically used for long range damage. Wheres Caldari's short-medium range damage that is competitive? Blaster rokh or Javelin ammo Rokh, as I explained to you in one of my very first posts. And by the way, the Raven can fit these things called torpedoes, you may want to look them up. |

Lili Lu
70
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 22:13:00 -
[26] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:Lissa Winters wrote:Hyperion has a hybrid damage bonus and 8 high slots. So it would have the same. yep that would make them just too similar increase resist bonus to 10% or give other things to caldari like +1 mid cpu and pg Oh Naomi, don't you realize how stupid this makes you look? |

Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
376
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 22:19:00 -
[27] - Quote
5% resist per lvl adds up to one single enam, or one extra low, at max skills. Hype has 6 lows. It's a joke for an armor boat. |

Hado Eullon
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 22:25:00 -
[28] - Quote
Quote: I know this has no relevance to CCP, but Minmatar Artillery is a joke compared with rails in a technology sense. Why is it that the race that still uses present day tech for their weapons superior in so many respects to a currently theoretical weapon like a railgun that fires even more spectacular antimatter shells?
I believe antimatter payloads fired at a a sizeable percentage of the speed of light would leave nuclear and fusion weapons in the dust, damage wise, from the science point of view. Infact lasers would probably be pretty paltry by comparison.
I have mention this before, and I agree with it the reasoning, if the Amarr Laser technology WAS in fact able to do even comparative damage with the other types, and even some from a far greater range, then the whole of Amarrian tech would be so far past the other races that there wouldnt be much the others could do to touch their ships, as the technology to consistently support a damaging laser beam of that level at that range would put them centuries at least beyond all of them. |

OfBalance
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 22:50:00 -
[29] - Quote
Can't fly half of the caldari ships.
Don't miss out on anything.
I am ok with this.  |

Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
94
|
Posted - 2011.12.23 00:40:00 -
[30] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:Naomi Knight wrote:Lissa Winters wrote:Hyperion has a hybrid damage bonus and 8 high slots. So it would have the same. yep that would make them just too similar increase resist bonus to 10% or give other things to caldari like +1 mid cpu and pg Oh Naomi, don't you realize how stupid this makes you look? less stupid than you ? who couldnt give us even one idea how to fix those ships? |
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