| Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Damon Ra
Caldari
   |
Posted - 2007.03.22 20:03:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Damon Ra on 22/03/2007 20:03:56
Anyone who thinks an established ice operation can just "move" someplace else without serious (if not game-breaking) consequences has absolutely no idea what they are talking about, probably because their involvement in the ice trade is ZERO.
1) You have to grind missions to get standing to refine at stations in your mining area. How many of you want to grind missions all over to get a 6.8 or better corp standing? Skip this step, and you lose money before you even start.
2) Ice is bulky, and unwieldy and the largest industrials padded out to cost well over 100mil, can only carry approx 30 or so ice cubes. Once refined, you really need a freighter to move enough mats to market to do you any good financially. Getting mats to the public markets isn't always a great idea anyway, but if your public market or customers goes from being 10 jumps to 20+ away this is a huge impact on your time. If we are out hauling all the time, who's mining?
3) Ice mining is tedious and boring, there, I said it. It is already only profitable as a group operation. How many OPs does your group have where 100% need to be in attendence or the OP is just not worth it?
4) Good reliable ice contracts are hard to obtain, and selling your stuff on public market is a trade-hub sport. See #2 above.
There are many, many more logistical issues why starting over really isn't feasible for a lot (if not most) high sec ice operations. The items above are just some of the larger ones.
Mining ice sucks, artifically making it scarcer and more valueable by meddling with the "player driven economy" won't change that. Upping the yield and/or reducing the cycle time would be more in line. In-belt refining of ice would have me dancing personally.
Verge Vendor is a perfect example where CCP tossed the baby out with the bathwater. No high sec ice belts exist any longer and there were something like 14 of them originally. moving at least one of these to a .5 system would have been balanced. By a Dev's own admission removing the ice was *not* aimed at macros/farmers.
So.. Why exactly was the ice removed?
Current Tranquility status:
SELECT production_code FROM SISI WHERE testers = 'players' AND testers <> 'ccp_staff' AND testing_duration < 'sufficient'; |
Elgar Lightfoot
Lightfoot Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.22 20:16:00 -
[32]
No matter what CCP do they will NOT force the majority of high security players into moving mining to low sec. They will force players out of the game all together.
NEVER nerf an area just so you can make another area more appealing. Improve the other area, as it's obviously lacking, but never break something thats working and has been working for years.
|
Dregann
Amarr
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Valainaloce
|
Posted - 2007.03.22 20:21:00 -
[33]
Have ALL the ice belts in empire moved to lowsec?
|
Elgar Lightfoot
Lightfoot Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.22 20:25:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Elgar Lightfoot on 22/03/2007 20:22:45
No, they just deleted ALL belts in 0.8 - 1.0. They didn't move or add any.
Thats every belt in high sec for Verge Vendor, all bar one (0.5) for Essence and one (0.5) in Genesis.
Those are the Regions I've checked so far, but it's a major deletion. The ones left are very few.
|
Dregann
Amarr
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Valainaloce
|
Posted - 2007.03.22 20:26:00 -
[35]
Whats the system name for the one in genesis?
|
Elgar Lightfoot
Lightfoot Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.22 20:28:00 -
[36]
Manatirid. A single Ice belt (blue Ice) in 0.5.
|
Ser Prius
|
Posted - 2007.03.22 20:59:00 -
[37]
Actually, the ice belts in 0.8> are not 'gone', they still show up under 'Asteroid Belts', but you can no longer warp to them. Not sure what would happen if you had a bookmark in one.
|
Snake Doctor
Guardians of Hell's Gate
Tactical Narcotics Team
|
Posted - 2007.03.22 21:10:00 -
[38]
CCP is not forcing you to do anything. Low sec doesnt suck as much as you might think. If you fly stupid, you'll lose your stuff. I'm in and out of low sec on a regular basis and I've only been engaged 4 times. You have options here; Make friends with the people who camp that system, gang up, or just fly around it.
I know for a fact there are mid-sec ice belts. I think there is one near Ekid. .6? Zaimeth or something? You'll have to pardon me, I don't have my atlas. Use your head and find one of the tools that lists them.
I find it astounding that people just don't know how to function as a team. Mining in low sec is just as easy as high sec, as long as you don't try to win Eve and play by yourself.
Get a gang together, head out to low sec. pwn.
Your mom goes to college... |
Elgar Lightfoot
Lightfoot Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.22 21:25:00 -
[39]
Ser, the links are still there, but the belts are gone. I have BM's and all the roids have been removed.
|
Lord Dynastron
Mystical Knights
|
Posted - 2007.03.22 21:37:00 -
[40]
Soo,, where close to Verge is there Blue ice to be found in .5 or higher?
|
Elgar Lightfoot
Lightfoot Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.22 21:42:00 -
[41]
Snake Doctor, many of us don't want to play as a team. Many of us dont have the option of playing as a team. We may be friends and in the same corp, but many of our time schedules don't match.
Also many of us play the game in a laid back manner. We like to take things slowly. Look at my character age, it was only a couple of months back that I got into a BS.
Much of the appeal of EVE to a Huge portion of the player base is that it CAN be played at your own pace. You can play it solo, or gang. You can take weeks or years to achieve something. You are not forced to play any everyone elses speed.
It's the one game where you can still compete with everyone else no matter how hard you play.
Low sec does not fit with mine and many others play styles.
|
Snake Doctor
Guardians of Hell's Gate
Tactical Narcotics Team
|
Posted - 2007.03.22 21:54:00 -
[42]
 Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot
Snake Doctor, many of us don't want to play as a team. Many of us dont have the option of playing as a team. We may be friends and in the same corp, but many of our time schedules don't match.
Also many of us play the game in a laid back manner. We like to take things slowly. Look at my character age, it was only a couple of months back that I got into a BS.
Much of the appeal of EVE to a Huge portion of the player base is that it CAN be played at your own pace. You can play it solo, or gang. You can take weeks or years to achieve something. You are not forced to play any everyone elses speed.
It's the one game where you can still compete with everyone else no matter how hard you play.
Low sec does not fit with mine and many others play styles.
At the risk of being an abrasive douchebag (which I am anyway), why not find something else to do? There are a million ways to entertain yourself in Eve. Surely shooting an ice cube all day isn't the most entertaining one.
You can still mine Ice. I know that system I told you about was an ice spot last time I was down there. Tank EM. Sansha rats.
Your mom goes to college... |
Hamfast
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.03.22 22:06:00 -
[43]
As a member with the really tricked out Ity V that can tote 38 of those ice cubes, sorry, I am not going to chance it with its paper thin skin in Low sec... I am even worried if I get to the pirate prone space (.5 to .8)...
I have mined Ice, it has to be the most boring part of the game, but when you are looking at a 200 mill ISK hauler (3 Cargo rigs at 45 Mil each, 5 Cargo 2's at about 15 mil each... oh, and less then a mil for the Iteron V)
I am not sure why ice belts were pulled from the highest sec space, personally, I think the idea requires rethinking...
Noob in training...
|
Snake Doctor
Guardians of Hell's Gate
Tactical Narcotics Team
|
Posted - 2007.03.22 22:16:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Hamfast
As a member with the really tricked out Ity V that can tote 38 of those ice cubes, sorry, I am not going to chance it with its paper thin skin in Low sec... I am even worried if I get to the pirate prone space (.5 to .8)...
I have mined Ice, it has to be the most boring part of the game, but when you are looking at a 200 mill ISK hauler (3 Cargo rigs at 45 Mil each, 5 Cargo 2's at about 15 mil each... oh, and less then a mil for the Iteron V)
I am not sure why ice belts were pulled from the highest sec space, personally, I think the idea requires rethinking...
I can think of several reasons. Months ago, they pulled it out of 1.0. The other day out of .8.
1. It makes it hard on macros, farmers, and the like, because now you're introducing risk factors.
2. You could take the RP standpoint: "Increased Ice mining efforts in empire have stripped empire space of ice!" I think it would have made a fun event or news release.
Apparently, they haven't been doing a whole lot of fiction lately.
Your mom goes to college... |
Soporo
Caldari
|
Posted - 2007.03.22 22:32:00 -
[45]
Disassemble POS, move to another Empire system, might take some more searching.
Anything that detracts from Macros is worth it to me, sorry.
|
Addela Argaron
Caldari
|
Posted - 2007.03.22 22:35:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Addela Argaron on 22/03/2007 22:32:02
oh well if its gone its gone
|
Renosha Argaron
Caldari
The Celestial Free Miner's
|
Posted - 2007.03.22 22:36:00 -
[47]
Well im also annoyed at the fact that the ice belts where removed from verge vendor......the reason behind ccp's actions are unknown and i guess always will be....they dont feel the need to ask there customers what they want unless you area a pirate/pvp.
As for those who say "stop moaning" and "there has to be other things more entertaining to do" well its a case of each to there own in EVE...what you find entertaining and what i find entertaining aint always gonna be the same....and if the important belts in 0.4 and below where removed im sure you would'nt be saying "stop complaining" then.
Being a pvp player is all well and good.....but without us miners your POS's would run out of fuel & stop working, ore's for building your ships would dry up & the market prices would rocket.
Personaly i can always find another ice belt....but its a pain having to travil further for something that was once right on my doorstep.....i guess us "Carebears" aint valued as much by ccp as the rats and immoral pirates are.
The main draw of eve is the fact you have a choice of what you wanna be...peacfull or pvp'er...lol...im a lover not a fighter so im happy to be a carebear and very proud of the fact i worked hard for what i have today....so dont knock mining.....there also should be a "Be Kind To Miners" day......anyway enough of my ranting....no point in crying over melted ice.....lol
Regards
Renosha
|
Elgar Lightfoot
Lightfoot Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.22 22:39:00 -
[48]
Snake, a Dev already stated that it was not anything to do with macroers/farmers. That was not the reason for removing Ice from High sec.
As for doing something else, we do. We mine other ores, We manufacture, we research, we explore, we run missions, but much of this is aided and supported by our POS's. We spent months training the skills to erect, support and run our POS's. We ganged together to achieve it, and as it goes the majority of our first POS was purchased out of my own pocket.
I spent many months and a lot of cash training two accounts up to be specialized in Ice mining. I'm even proficient in Ice processing. All this just so we could fuel or own POS and be self sufficient.
A sizable amount of time and SIK has been invested into Ice production and you suggest, we go do something else? I solo mined the last 3 months of POS fuel (ice). I dedicated that time to the task, and now I'm told to go do something else. This all because CCP want to force players into low sec.
I for one will definitely not be going. It was a pain when they decided to change our HQ's station owners. They moved the agents we'd been training up with to other places (totally out of the way for us), and changed the owners to Quafe. There was absolutely no reason for that change, it wasn't part of the story, there wasn't even any reason given as to why it was changed. They just up and changed the owners and removed all of our agents. On top of that we used to get our skill books at our HQ. That went with the change in owners too.
We were forced to move our site of operations. Now they are doing the same again with Ice. But this time it's even worse. They are attempting to drive us out of high security space. All so that some low sec pirate can have more targets.
|
Damon Ra
Caldari
|
Posted - 2007.03.22 23:08:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Snake Doctor
At the risk of being an abrasive douchebag (which I am anyway), why not find something else to do? There are a million ways to entertain yourself in Eve. Surely shooting an ice cube all day isn't the most entertaining one.
You can still mine Ice. I know that system I told you about was an ice spot last time I was down there. Tank EM. Sansha rats.
Well, if more people in the ice trade take your advice and find something else to do, who is gonna' be left to mine ice? Some players have well over a year and a couple billion invested in establishing their operations so that people who use POS, carriers and dreads have a regular supply of fuel..
Also, just because you know of an icefield *somewhere* in empire does not necessarily mean it is the right kind of ice for all affected miners (ice-type does matter) or that it is logistically within range of a group that can mine it profitably.
This isn't like veldspar mining where you can just pack up and move everything in an hour, because Veld miners won't have a billion or two invested in veld mining (unless you are Chribba). Veld is also useful for just about everything, ice has a very narrow and limited (yet growing) consumer market.
How long exactly have you been in the ice trade again Snake?
Current Tranquility status:
SELECT production_code FROM SISI WHERE testers = 'players' AND testers <> 'ccp_staff' AND testing_duration < 'sufficient'; |
Lord Dynastron
Mystical Knights
|
Posted - 2007.03.22 23:25:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot
Snake, a Dev already stated that it was not anything to do with macroers/farmers. That was not the reason for removing Ice from High sec.
As for doing something else, we do. We mine other ores, We manufacture, we research, we explore, we run missions, but much of this is aided and supported by our POS's. We spent months training the skills to erect, support and run our POS's. We ganged together to achieve it, and as it goes the majority of our first POS was purchased out of my own pocket.
I spent many months and a lot of cash training two accounts up to be specialized in Ice mining. I'm even proficient in Ice processing. All this just so we could fuel or own POS and be self sufficient.
A sizable amount of time and SIK has been invested into Ice production and you suggest, we go do something else? I solo mined the last 3 months of POS fuel (ice). I dedicated that time to the task, and now I'm told to go do something else. This all because CCP want to force players into low sec.
I for one will definitely not be going. It was a pain when they decided to change our HQ's station owners. They moved the agents we'd been training up with to other places (totally out of the way for us), and changed the owners to Quafe. There was absolutely no reason for that change, it wasn't part of the story, there wasn't even any reason given as to why it was changed. They just up and changed the owners and removed all of our agents. On top of that we used to get our skill books at our HQ. That went with the change in owners too.
We were forced to move our site of operations. Now they are doing the same again with Ice. But this time it's even worse. They are attempting to drive us out of high security space. All so that some low sec pirate can have more targets.
You don't by chance live in Alenia do you!?! Just sounds like what we are dealing with as well.
The ice out of Verge is a fairly major change that I think warrants an explanation from Devs at least. Inconvenience a bunch of people and you owe them at least that much.
I feel you pain!
|
Erim Solfara
Amarr
Tarlos INC
|
Posted - 2007.03.23 00:25:00 -
[51]
I don't mine ice.
However, the theme of the OP rings true, nerfing high sec is not the way to go, not to mention I'd like to say well done for standing up to all the pvpers telling you to move/adapt/play the game differently/etc.
New ship class |
Moonlight Express
Amarr
Moonlight Express Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.03.23 00:45:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot
Snake, a Dev already stated that it was not anything to do with macroers/farmers. That was not the reason for removing Ice from High sec.
As for doing something else, we do. We mine other ores, We manufacture, we research, we explore, we run missions, but much of this is aided and supported by our POS's. We spent months training the skills to erect, support and run our POS's. We ganged together to achieve it, and as it goes the majority of our first POS was purchased out of my own pocket.
I spent many months and a lot of cash training two accounts up to be specialized in Ice mining. I'm even proficient in Ice processing. All this just so we could fuel or own POS and be self sufficient.
A sizable amount of time and SIK has been invested into Ice production and you suggest, we go do something else? I solo mined the last 3 months of POS fuel (ice). I dedicated that time to the task, and now I'm told to go do something else. This all because CCP want to force players into low sec.
I for one will definitely not be going. It was a pain when they decided to change our HQ's station owners. They moved the agents we'd been training up with to other places (totally out of the way for us), and changed the owners to Quafe. There was absolutely no reason for that change, it wasn't part of the story, there wasn't even any reason given as to why it was changed. They just up and changed the owners and removed all of our agents. On top of that we used to get our skill books at our HQ. That went with the change in owners too.
We were forced to move our site of operations. Now they are doing the same again with Ice. But this time it's even worse. They are attempting to drive us out of high security space. All so that some low sec pirate can have more targets.
Signed.
Waisting people's time while charging them RL money for it is low.
|
Shaemell Buttleson
Darwin With Attitude
|
Posted - 2007.03.23 00:58:00 -
[53]
Your signature was inappropriate, email [email protected] to find out why (don't forget to include a link to it) -Sahwoolo |
Alexi Johns
Executive Outcomes
|
Posted - 2007.03.23 01:52:00 -
[54]
seriously could you cry anymore, what a pity you cant macro your ice anymore.
empire is boring and laggy, i say move it or lose it
My suggestion.
join a 0.0 alliance put up a few pos's in your new home carrier in the npc fuel mine hi ends and ice all day.
Supply 0.0 region with tech 1 gear & ships, bring in t2 gear with your fuel carriers, profit
so omg you might get shot but only if your a moron who uses autopilot or doesnt watch the intel channels and local, if you setup right you only have to ss behind your pos shields anyway which isnt exactly hard.
Ive done my fair share of hauling and mining in 0.0 space and its far safer than low sec, for all the profit ive made i got ganked once in a badger with a hold of trit .. oh the pain of loosing such an expensive asset.
So in short stop giving a bad name to carebears everywhere and please discontinue your whining.
|
Mordinn
Tharsis Security
|
Posted - 2007.03.23 02:07:00 -
[55]
Note: I have nothing of importance to say in this thread.
EL Tank!
|
Damon Ra
Caldari
|
Posted - 2007.03.23 03:20:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Alexi Johns
My suggestion.
join a 0.0 alliance put up a few pos's in your new home carrier in the npc fuel mine hi ends and ice all day.
Did ya ever wonder why empire exists? Some people choose to play the game there because CCP provided the means to do it and they obviously encourage it too. New missions, invention and exploration are new and yet are not unique gameplay available only in 0.0 space, so why can we do all this stuff in empire? Empire alliances exist too, I wonder why that is..
I'd rather choose where to play a game I pay for, thank you, and not be herded where CCP wants me to play. If that is even CCP's intention.
What if CCP, in one sweeping move, removed all the icefields from all non-true 0.0 security systems, and as a side effect your Alliance's whole region was stripped of icefields because as it so happens, all your region's icefields were located in slightly-higher-than true 0.0 security systems.
Guess you'd all just pack-up and move to empire after making that huge investment in your region.
Current Tranquility status:
SELECT production_code FROM SISI WHERE testers = 'players' AND testers <> 'ccp_staff' AND testing_duration <> 'sufficient'; |
Snake Doctor
Guardians of Hell's Gate
Tactical Narcotics Team
|
Posted - 2007.03.23 06:08:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Snake Doctor on 23/03/2007 06:05:06
Originally by: Damon Ra
How long exactly have you been in the ice trade again Snake?
Two years, give or take.
Your mom goes to college... |
Soporo
Caldari
|
Posted - 2007.03.23 07:58:00 -
[58]
Then petition, in a sensible manner, they might cut you some slack or assist in a move somehow, as they were the cause of your travails.
|
Elgar Lightfoot
Lightfoot Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.23 08:12:00 -
[59]
I like the suggestions of a move, however it's never that easy. It took months for me to decide where I was going to live in EVE. It took many more months in establishing a base. It took years to entice my friends from other games to visit EVE. It took even longer to find exactly the right spots to put our POS, mines and offices. We adapted when they took our agents away. We adapted when they changed the owners of our station and removed our skill books. Adapting to the removal of Ice is not so easy.
As a corp we don't have Freighters, so even if we did manage to find 'just the right spot', it would take months to move everything to where it needed to go. Add to that we'd have to break ties with all the people we've got to know in local and the surrounding areas of where we live.
For pirates it's easy, everyone that's not in your corp is a target, so who cares if you move. Ice/miners don't have that luxury. We have ties, we have friends, we have MASSIVE resources which all need to be moved.
I simply refuse to be involved in non consensual PVP, which is why I chose Empire all those years ago.
|
Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
|
Posted - 2007.03.23 08:50:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Snake Doctor
Originally by: Hamfast
As a member with the really tricked out Ity V that can tote 38 of those ice cubes, sorry, I am not going to chance it with its paper thin skin in Low sec... I am even worried if I get to the pirate prone space (.5 to .8)...
I have mined Ice, it has to be the most boring part of the game, but when you are looking at a 200 mill ISK hauler (3 Cargo rigs at 45 Mil each, 5 Cargo 2's at about 15 mil each... oh, and less then a mil for the Iteron V)
I am not sure why ice belts were pulled from the highest sec space, personally, I think the idea requires rethinking...
I can think of several reasons. Months ago, they pulled it out of 1.0. The other day out of .8.
1. It makes it hard on macros, farmers, and the like, because now you're introducing risk factors.
2. You could take the RP standpoint: "Increased Ice mining efforts in empire have stripped empire space of ice!" I think it would have made a fun event or news release.
Apparently, they haven't been doing a whole lot of fiction lately.
Oveur I think it was posted in a thread called Why not remove the macroers not the ice.
He or the other dev stated that the removing of belts from 8 and above systems was not due to macroers.
Others asked why then. He never replied.
The only reason is they are trying to force more people into low sec and 0.0. This won't work though. The method they are using will lose more subscriptions.
What they should do is instead of nerfing Empire every few months is to actually spend that time instead on making Low sec more profitable.
Why don't more folks mine in low sec?
Its simple, its a risk vs reward issue. The reward possible there is not worth risking their paper thin barges and hauling ships. You can say hire guards, won't work. Folks will suicide just to kill the barges and haulers and ignore the guards, hoping to draw them off so a alt can just loot the wrecks.
Solution: Increase the distribution of the 5% and 10% ores in low sec. Increase the size of the asteroids. Those would be far more meaningful efforts.
I agree that if they continue on the path of nerfing Empire to force folks into low sec and 0.0 that they are going to find more folks leaving the game.
Removing all high Empire ice from entire regions was not a very good decision, nor just leaving one or two ice belts to supply that region.
They should go ahead and patch in some ice belts into other systems or bring back some of the ones they removed.
The ripples won't just be felt by Empire corps though. I suspect there are far more POSs in 0.0 that rely on Empire ice than many realise.
Idea: Treaties
Idea: Jump Rigs |
| |
|
| Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |