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Cryselle	Posted - 2007.03.23 09:21:00 - [61] Another long term effect will be visible quickly. Marco Ice Miners switched to normal "macro" mining. Quite, safe systems were already strip mined within the few days after the patch. 12-15 miners with fancy names just cleared systems from roids. Not very funny for "legti" carebear miners.
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2007.03.23 09:47:00 - [62] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 23/03/2007 09:44:58 There is one very good thing about removing icebelts from 1.0 to 0.8 space. Since those belts dont have rats it have been pretty safe to mine there. So people could mine Ice totally without any form of preparation. Now, since Ice have so limited uses this presses the price down. Now, when the risk is slightly higher, newbies have to either mine veldspar in 1.0 or scordite etc. in 0.8 until they can mine ice is 0.5 to 0.7. Now, what will this do. 1. force people who wants to mine ice out of 0.8 and 1.0 and into 0.5 to 0.7 or low/deep space. 2. spread the player base more around EVE universe. Take it out of places like Jita. hopefulle this wil reduce lag 3. Hopefully this might also increase the price a little, since the number of ice miners might be reduced a little. The price for empire ice is very sad indeed. Originally by: Eldo Davip PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT. WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11
Revolution Rising Minmatar Venture Research and Resources	Posted - 2007.03.23 09:50:00 - [63] Originally by: Illyria Ambri You wont be the only one... CCP logic appears to be all pvp.. all the time Or as their Dev basicly put it.. If you dont like it.. leave QFT. Please stop this push for people to be constantly PVPing. CEO Venture Research and Resources. VRR Homepage
Elgar Lightfoot Lightfoot Industries	Posted - 2007.03.23 09:53:00 - [64] How is this going to affect Jita? Theres no Ice, roids or anything of minable value there. I don't even have a problem with getting players to spread out in the EVE universe. If they wanted to do that they would have redistributed the Ice belts to attract the players to other areas, not delete them. By the way all of the sytems I work in have 0-30 players max in them at any time of day and night. I'm already in low populated areas. There is clearly only ONE intention of this change. To force players into low sec space. It will not work. I'd disband the corp and quit before I'm forced to go there.
Bienurdau Hywoaf Minmatar Matari Holo News Network	Posted - 2007.03.23 09:59:00 - [65] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 23/03/2007 09:44:58 There is one very good thing about removing icebelts from 1.0 to 0.8 space. Since those belts dont have rats it have been pretty safe to mine there. So people could mine Ice totally without any form of preparation. Now, since Ice have so limited uses this presses the price down. Now, when the risk is slightly higher, newbies have to either mine veldspar in 1.0 or scordite etc. in 0.8 until they can mine ice is 0.5 to 0.7. Now, what will this do. 1. force people who wants to mine ice out of 0.8 and 1.0 and into 0.5 to 0.7 or low/deep space. 2. spread the player base more around EVE universe. Take it out of places like Jita. hopefulle this wil reduce lag 3. Hopefully this might also increase the price a little, since the number of ice miners might be reduced a little. The price for empire ice is very sad indeed. 1. That or force them to quit. Some folks don't want to go to low sec and 0.0 because the risk involved compared the earnings for the casual player is just not worth the small reward. 2. Jita hasn't had belts for months, it has not affected Jita's population. That in itself proves you can't force the folks to spread out. The more you force folks to do something you want them to do the more they resist. 3. The price most likely will significantly rise. Most Gallente regions have 1 or no high sec ice belts now. This also means that legitimate players have no real easy means of fueling their POSs in that empire. Since each empire is a different isotope you can't just go mine in Metropolis and carry it to Verge Vendor for instance, the isotopes will be wrong. This is gonna force many smaller corps to probably close up shop on their POS operations in those areas, as they will not be able to fuel their POSs. That means even more wait time for empire ME and Copy Slots. Most of the macroers will either switch to stripping normal minerals or move into the few existing ice belts remaining in Gallante space. Further keeping folks from obtaining what they need. Its a very very bad step actually Idea: Treaties Idea: Jump Rigs
Elgar Lightfoot Lightfoot Industries	Posted - 2007.03.23 10:07:00 - [66] 1. I don't care what the rewards are in low sec and 0.0. I refuse to participate in non-consensual PVP. War's are fine, but I refuse to be a part of the instant gank. No matter what CCP do they'll never 'force' me to move to low sec. They could up the rewards 10 fold and I'd still not move.
Laboratus Gallente BGG Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.03.23 10:22:00 - [67] Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot 1. I don't care what the rewards are in low sec and 0.0. I refuse to participate in non-consensual PVP. War's are fine, but I refuse to be a part of the instant gank. No matter what CCP do they'll never 'force' me to move to low sec. They could up the rewards 10 fold and I'd still not move. Ok... Eve is primarily a pvp game. And tries very hard to be as harsh a world as possible. All in all. If you want to mine ice or minerals safely you should consider making a residency deal to a 0.0 alliance payble in ice or minerals. The rewards are bigger and the deeper in 0.0 the locations are the better the alliances can secure them. Usually a corp mining op of 2-4h per month should pay the dues for the mining access. And you can propably even get protection for freighters etc. And concord does not stop ppl from ganking in empire, they just shoot them afterwards. In alliance space they stop hostiles from coming into the systems. The problem with low sec empire is it's total unsafety. Concord doesn't secure it, and since you cannot bubble there and there is the risk taking sec hits, neither can you secure it with your friends. Hence low sec is a bit of a pirate heaven. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Revolution Rising Minmatar Venture Research and Resources	Posted - 2007.03.23 10:33:00 - [68] Originally by: Bienurdau Hywoaf Oveur I think it was posted in a thread called Why not remove the macroers not the ice. He or the other dev stated that the removing of belts from 8 and above systems was not due to macroers. Others asked why then. He never replied. The only reason is they are trying to force more people into low sec and 0.0. This won't work though. The method they are using will lose more subscriptions. What they should do is instead of nerfing Empire every few months is to actually spend that time instead on making Low sec more profitable. Why don't more folks mine in low sec? Its simple, its a risk vs reward issue. The reward possible there is not worth risking their paper thin barges and hauling ships. You can say hire guards, won't work. Folks will suicide just to kill the barges and haulers and ignore the guards, hoping to draw them off so a alt can just loot the wrecks. Solution: Increase the distribution of the 5% and 10% ores in low sec. Increase the size of the asteroids. Those would be far more meaningful efforts. I agree that if they continue on the path of nerfing Empire to force folks into low sec and 0.0 that they are going to find more folks leaving the game. Removing all high Empire ice from entire regions was not a very good decision, nor just leaving one or two ice belts to supply that region. They should go ahead and patch in some ice belts into other systems or bring back some of the ones they removed. The ripples won't just be felt by Empire corps though. I suspect there are far more POSs in 0.0 that rely on Empire ice than many realise. QFT and you have helped me kick off a thread in Game Development forum specifically identifying why this is so. Their game development philosophy is flawed at this point. RR CEO Venture Research and Resources. VRR Homepage
Elgar Lightfoot Lightfoot Industries	Posted - 2007.03.23 10:33:00 - [69] I have no interest in 0.0. I don't want to be dependant upon others for my gaming enjoyment. I log in when I want, and I do as I want. I'm sure as heck not going to pay someone else for the privilege of mining in 'their' 0.0 area. I do accept that EVE is primarily a PVP game, but it is also so much more. It's a lesson in economics. PVP is a very small portion of the game when you consider all the other walks of life. There is risk in everything you do, but I've accepted that risk for the past three years. I'm now being forced to participate in non-consensual PVP or pay some other players for the privilege of being in 'their' space. Neither of which is acceptable to me. I've not had to do it for 3 years, I don't expect to have to do it now, on the whim of some dev. If I wanted to PVP I'd go play Counterstrike.
Revolution Rising Minmatar Venture Research and Resources	Posted - 2007.03.23 10:35:00 - [70] Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot I do accept that EVE is primarily a PVP game, but it is also so much more. I don't understand how people can keep saying this at this point in the life cycle of the game?!? This game is EVOLVING. How can you call it ANYTHING definitively? I'd play Unreal Tournament if I wanted to PVP. Why would I play a game where all i do is click on someone and press f1,f2,f3 if I want to PVP? Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot If I wanted to PVP I'd go play Counterstrike. Exactly. RR CEO Venture Research and Resources. VRR Homepage
Ruffio Sepico Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2007.03.23 10:38:00 - [71] For the Verge Vendor region, the problem is not that they removed the belts from 0.8 and above. The problem is they didn't move or spawn a ice belt in 0.7-0.5 space, only ice belt left in Verge is in low sec. There is a few ice belts left in Gallente space above 0.4 but it should be some in each region at least. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.23 10:45:00 - [72] Originally by: Unknown Subject Edited by: Unknown Subject on 22/03/2007 17:56:56 can i have your stuff? its not to force people into low sec, its to force macro miners into systems with rats in. stop crying about it and go mine ice in another region. and yes, eve is a pvp game. the whole game is based around pvp. Wrong, it was clarely stated by a CCp employee, in one of the first threads about this move, that it was not done as anti macro move as it would have been a inefficent solution. He hasn't specified what was the reason for the move. The only reasons most of us can see it that CCP don't want ice mining in high sec and don't like POS in high sec, as without access to ice the cost in high sec will become proibitive and I don't see 0.0 living people moving ice product in high sec in great quantity. BTW there will be an increase in demand for ice products with the future need for the capital ships for missions, and no source.
Laboratus Gallente BGG Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.03.23 10:46:00 - [73] There are other venues of pvp than just pew pew. The way you set up your production lines, choosing where to sell your items, and possibly buying and reselling underpriced items are all part of the market side of the games pvp... Practicly the only way of avoiding pvp alltogether is impossible, unless you refine everyhing you get and sell that stuff to npc vendors. But without that you always have to compete with other players. PVP. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Stogee Gallente Grog Gluggers	Posted - 2007.03.23 10:53:00 - [74] Originally by: Unknown Subject Edited by: Unknown Subject on 22/03/2007 17:56:56 can i have your stuff? its not to force people into low sec, its to force macro miners into systems with rats in. stop crying about it and go mine ice in another region. and yes, eve is a pvp game. the whole game is based around pvp. Can I YOUR stuff? Yeah Eve is a PVP game. Funny, I was reading a dev blog not long ago from a dev about how they consider playing the non-combat orientated parts of the game as PVP also. Bottom line, CCP need to make up their mind. As much as I like this game, as much as I like to mine, make stuff, sell stuff and pirate/solo pvp to my hearts content, I'm convinced CCP are getting egotistical and are losing focus. I'm convinced they dont know which direction to take the game in and are grasping in the dark. CCP want all their players to play the high level hardcore Eve, NEWSFLASH! Not everyone wants to, not everyone who wants to has time to and not everyone who has the time and wants to necessarily wants to spend all that time on Eve. Sure, right now CCP can afford to behave like elitist pr**s and say stuff like "dont like it? leave". But you watch as slowly over time people start taking that advice and slowly over time their subscription base dwindles. Fact is, CCP are trying to force their playerbase to play the game the way they want the game to be played. It amazes me that after all these years of MMO's and the clear lessons that have been presented from the successes and failures of them, not to mention regular multiplayer games. Their still ignoring the one blatant, important lesson ... you cant force people to do what you want. And as for 0.0 being the same as low-sec I think your totally wrong. I cant even be arsed to explain why its so obvious.
Stogee Gallente Grog Gluggers	Posted - 2007.03.23 11:06:00 - [75] Forgot to mention this. It also comes down to Eves best feature. PvP combat? No! Capital Ships n stuff, right? No! Skill training system, dude? No! Its the market and manufacturing system thats Eves best feature. No other game comes even remotely close. For a builder, trader type player Eve is a wet dream come true. Its the driving force behind the game, its what makes the wars meaningful and controlling territory significant. And CCPs reaction? "What? you like that? guys, thats just a supporting feature to our L337 0.0 pvp combat game, your not sposed to play that!" moves most interesting manufacturing processes to 0.0
Revolution Rising Minmatar Venture Research and Resources	Posted - 2007.03.23 11:12:00 - [76] Originally by: Stogee Forgot to mention this. It also comes down to Eves best feature. PvP combat? No! Capital Ships n stuff, right? No! Skill training system, dude? No! Its the market and manufacturing system thats Eves best feature. No other game comes even remotely close. For a builder, trader type player Eve is a wet dream come true. Its the driving force behind the game, its what makes the wars meaningful and controlling territory significant. And CCPs reaction? "What? you like that? guys, thats just a supporting feature to our L337 0.0 pvp combat game, your not sposed to play that!" moves most interesting manufacturing processes to 0.0 Most definately. I just explained eve to someone on the Darkfall forums as seeming more like a "logistical simulator with combat thrown in". RR CEO Venture Research and Resources. VRR Homepage
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.23 11:23:00 - [77] Originally by: Laboratus Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot 1. I don't care what the rewards are in low sec and 0.0. I refuse to participate in non-consensual PVP. War's are fine, but I refuse to be a part of the instant gank. No matter what CCP do they'll never 'force' me to move to low sec. They could up the rewards 10 fold and I'd still not move. Ok... Eve is primarily a pvp game. And tries very hard to be as harsh a world as possible. All in all. If you want to mine ice or minerals safely you should consider making a residency deal to a 0.0 alliance payble in ice or minerals. The rewards are bigger and the deeper in 0.0 the locations are the better the alliances can secure them. Usually a corp mining op of 2-4h per month should pay the dues for the mining access. And you can propably even get protection for freighters etc. And concord does not stop ppl from ganking in empire, they just shoot them afterwards. In alliance space they stop hostiles from coming into the systems. The problem with low sec empire is it's total unsafety. Concord doesn't secure it, and since you cannot bubble there and there is the risk taking sec hits, neither can you secure it with your friends. Hence low sec is a bit of a pirate heaven. So were any of this help me fueling my research POS in high sec space? I should mine in 0.0 and haul the fuel in empire? Or I should move the research POS and the BPO I am researching in 0.0 and then move them back in Empire? Both are stupid options. I want to do my research where I have CONCORD protection for the POS, I don't want to build a death star, I am interested in research.
Laboratus Gallente BGG Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.03.23 11:31:00 - [78] Originally by: Venkul Mul So were any of this help me fueling my research POS in high sec space? I should mine in 0.0 and haul the fuel in empire? Or I should move the research POS and the BPO I am researching in 0.0 and then move them back in Empire? Both are stupid options. I want to do my research where I have CONCORD protection for the POS, I don't want to build a death star, I am interested in research. Umm, haven't you heard? Concord don't protect poses. If someone starts shooting at it, you don't get even kill rights. You can war dec em and hope he doesn't get it down before that kicks in. GL with that... Again, 0.0 is more safe in this regard than empire... And generally, Ice mining is best left for Ice miners. It's much more efficient to concentrate on what one is best at than to spread to too many things that are all half done... If you read what I was saying in my post, I was talking of selling ice to said alliances. Generally, if you can sell them the ice at their own stations they pay better than in empire, since they don't have to haul it from empire to said stations. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Lord Dynastron Mystical Knights	Posted - 2007.03.23 16:41:00 - [79] Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot I have no interest in 0.0. I don't want to be dependant upon others for my gaming enjoyment. I log in when I want, and I do as I want. I'm sure as heck not going to pay someone else for the privilege of mining in 'their' 0.0 area. I do accept that EVE is primarily a PVP game, but it is also so much more. It's a lesson in economics. PVP is a very small portion of the game when you consider all the other walks of life. There is risk in everything you do, but I've accepted that risk for the past three years. I'm now being forced to participate in non-consensual PVP or pay some other players for the privilege of being in 'their' space. Neither of which is acceptable to me. I've not had to do it for 3 years, I don't expect to have to do it now, on the whim of some dev. If I wanted to PVP I'd go play Counterstrike. Or Battlefield 2142,, now that is a good one. I digress.... I like the philospohy of the 'casual gamer.' Many of the suggestions you have been given (head to 0.0) are not really conducive to the casual player mentality (play when I want, do what I want). Some will say there are alliances that will let you putter around and do as you wish alone... but solo work on 0.0 (especially mining) is dangerous a best... fatal at worst. Loss in Eve is extreme. A player can loose 10, 20, 100, heck even 1000 hours of work and effort in a heartbeat. Another factor that discourages casual gaming. And the salt-in-the-wound part of the loss is that it is often to another player who 'steals your time'. Gosh,, I sound all whiney.
Dregann Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.03.23 16:56:00 - [80] Originally by: Cryselle Another long term effect will be visible quickly. Marco Ice Miners switched to normal "macro" mining. Quite, safe systems were already strip mined within the few days after the patch. 12-15 miners with fancy names just cleared systems from roids. Not very funny for "legti" carebear miners. qtf Lots of popular Empire systems are nearly aways mined out, more since ice was removed.
AvatarADV	Posted - 2007.03.23 17:15:00 - [81] Er... there's still at least 4 high-sec ice fields in Sinq, guys.
Elgar Lightfoot Lightfoot Industries	Posted - 2007.03.23 18:49:00 - [82] Originally by: AvatarADV Er... there's still at least 4 high-sec ice fields in Sinq, guys. You are correct, there are 4 (5 if you count Ala with it's 2 belts) in the Sing Liason high security region Sinq Laison Ala (2 belts) 0.5 Brapelille 0.7 Thelan 0.2low sec Rancer 0.4low sec Stegette 0.5 Alillere 0.9gone Misneden 0.5 Stetille 1.0gone Chelien 0.7 Archee 0.4low sec Lamadent 0.3low sec Mirilene 0.8gone Pettinck 0.9gone Carrou 0.4low sec Thats also a minimum of 16 jumps from our POS, and 12 from our area of normal operations. 16 jumps in a Barge? Even on manual thats a nightmare.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.23 19:57:00 - [83] Originally by: Laboratus Originally by: Venkul Mul So were any of this help me fueling my research POS in high sec space? I should mine in 0.0 and haul the fuel in empire? Or I should move the research POS and the BPO I am researching in 0.0 and then move them back in Empire? Both are stupid options. I want to do my research where I have CONCORD protection for the POS, I don't want to build a death star, I am interested in research. Umm, haven't you heard? Concord don't protect poses. If someone starts shooting at it, you don't get even kill rights. You can war dec em and hope he doesn't get it down before that kicks in. GL with that... Again, 0.0 is more safe in this regard than empire... And generally, Ice mining is best left for Ice miners. It's much more efficient to concentrate on what one is best at than to spread to too many things that are all half done... If you read what I was saying in my post, I was talking of selling ice to said alliances. Generally, if you can sell them the ice at their own stations they pay better than in empire, since they don't have to haul it from empire to said stations. POS attack: 1) that was officially a bug. CONCORD should protect non war decced POS; 2) some patch ago it was signalled as corrected; 3) if it is destroyed or put in reinforcement it is petitionable and a GM will reset the shield. ICE for POS I am not interested in selling ice, but I can easily cover my basic needs while looking market and working on others things. If the ice fields are in a acceptable distance from my base. What I am interested in is to use my POS for research, and to have it in range from a station, as I will put the BPO in the station and do remote research, something not so easily done in 0.0.
Arushia Nova Labs Empire Research	Posted - 2007.03.24 06:26:00 - [84] Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot Thats also a minimum of 16 jumps from our POS, and 12 from our area of normal operations. 16 jumps in a Barge? Even on manual thats a nightmare. True, but once your barge is in the same system as the ice, you'll never need to move it again. And why do you feel you need a corp office in the same system as the ice? The problem here is not the removal of ice fields, but your total inflexibility. And for the record: I run a POS in Essence (see link in my sig), I mine the ice for it myself, I had no trouble adapting to this. Empire Research and Nova Labs
Bienurdau Hywoaf Minmatar Matari Holo News Network	Posted - 2007.03.24 06:33:00 - [85] Originally by: Arushia Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot Thats also a minimum of 16 jumps from our POS, and 12 from our area of normal operations. 16 jumps in a Barge? Even on manual thats a nightmare. True, but once your barge is in the same system as the ice, you'll never need to move it again. And why do you feel you need a corp office in the same system as the ice? The problem here is not the removal of ice fields, but your total inflexibility. And for the record: I run a POS in Essence (see link in my sig), I mine the ice for it myself, I had no trouble adapting to this. He probably feels he needs a office in the system so as to expediate corp ops. He might not mine it all himself, or may not transport all of it to the stations. Offices make it easier to work. Idea: Treaties Idea: Jump Rigs
Damon Ra Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.24 07:11:00 - [86] Originally by: Arushia The problem here is not the removal of ice fields, but your total inflexibility. And for the record: I run a POS in Essence (see link in my sig), I mine the ice for it myself, I had no trouble adapting to this. You didn't mention whether or not you had to move everything you spent a year building, or if you had to form new relationships to keep your business going after the patch. If you were unaffected, well, good for you.. The whole matter goes a bit beyond just fueling a single high-sec POS, not that that is unimportant. Current Tranquility status: SELECT production_code FROM SISI WHERE testers = 'players' AND testers <> 'ccp_staff' AND testing_duration <> 'sufficient';
Agent Lemming	Posted - 2007.03.24 07:45:00 - [87] There was a time when there wasn't any ice to mine at all, and people still managed to play the game
Elgar Lightfoot Lightfoot Industries	Posted - 2007.03.24 09:15:00 - [88] Originally by: Arushia True, but once your barge is in the same system as the ice, you'll never need to move it again. And why do you feel you need a corp office in the same system as the ice? The problem here is not the removal of ice fields, but your total inflexibility. And for the record: I run a POS in Essence (see link in my sig), I mine the ice for it myself, I had no trouble adapting to this. It's not so bad for myself as I have dedicated Ice mining mackinaws for my characters, but others in the corp multi task with their Retrievers and Covetors. It would require them to refit, fly out 16 jumps, mine Ice, then fly back and refit after. Add to that moving the Haulers out there and the multitude of 16 jump trips to move all the Ice products back. Then on top of that we have to send our mission runners out there to do their work at the station we are going to be refining at. Moving an Ice business is not so easy. Mining is simple, Ice is much harder. 16 jumps is just not feasable.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.24 09:36:00 - [89] The problem with ice mining is, it's basically like regular mining but worse for just about everyone...except macro-miners. For macro-miners, the cycle times and high-sec ice belts and necessity of ice products for other players means it really does to an extent just print ISK since the ice products go off and disappear from the economy relatively rapidly. Honestly I think CCP should reconsider whether adding another mining-like activity to the game was really the right choice, and consider altering ice-mining to more reflect it's 'fuel' status - change it to an auto-generated resource (Mackinaws become deployable automated ice harvesters) which finds it's challenge in the logistics of keeping the fuel flowing from the refineries (the Mackinaws and the POS refining the ice) to the front lines (carriers and offensive POSs). In some way, it needs to actually be important to hold ice fields in territorial wars - making them somewhat like oil fields or something, a place you need to secure to keep your machine rolling but once had pretty much runs itself.
Marcus Tedric Gallente Tedric Enterprises	Posted - 2007.03.24 10:14:00 - [90] Oh dear - bit stunned by this thread... Firstly I thought I'd get in touch with this guy, but now perhaps not Second - the helpful bit. I haven't checked them all, but I think you'll find that Everyshore has lost only one Ice Belt and there are 8 left! Ombey Maps 4tw Thirdly - I don't see anything here to force people into Low Sec - there are so many options available to you: you could buy extra Covetors and Retrievers and pre-position them then all pop over in shuttles; I'm sure you can find a station to rent a Corp office if you must, but you don't need to - just contract stuff; you could have the ice products couriered to you; goodness, you could mine more, sell and then buy the Ice Products; there are even people who will supply a complete service! Fourthly - with the possible exception of those who would rather play a single-player EVE and do nothing but run missions and pretend that they don't buy and sell from real people - EVE is a Multi-Player game where EVERYTHING is pitting Player against Other Players. It is arguably the best game currently out there in a most realistic (SF setting 'game') way right now - which is why I love it. I too run a small Corp or mature players with real lives and often limited time - but all this does is act as a natural limit on what we can achieve, but it doesn't stop us doing anything! Nor does it force us to do anything. Role-play it - your running a business - adapt

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