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Zarak1 Kenpach1
Aperture Harmonics K162
24
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Posted - 2011.12.23 03:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
I saw that there has been some tinkering with their slot layouts, stats, and bonus' on chaos server.
Quote:Retribution
+200 ArmorHP +15 CPU +1 Med-slot
Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Energy Turret Cap Use per level 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed per level
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Energy Turret Optimal Range per level 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret Damage per level
Role bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty
Vengeance
+10 CPU +1 High-slot (utility)
Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Rocket Damage per level -5% bonus to Missile Launcher Rate of Fire per level
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Armor Resistances per level 5% bonus to Capacitor Recharge Rate per level
Role bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty
Harpy
+10 CPU +200 ShieldHP +1 Low-slot
Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Optimal range per level 5% bonus to Shield Resistances per level
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Optimal Range per level 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Damage per level
Role bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty
Hawk
+10 CPU +1 Med-slot
Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to missile velocity and 5% bonus to shield boost amount per level
Role bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty
Enyo
+200 ArmorHP +10 CPU +1 Med-slot
Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Damage per level
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Optimal Range per level 7.5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Tracking Speed per level
Role bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty
Ishkur
+1 Low-slot
Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage 10% bonus to drone hitpoints per level
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Optimal Range per level 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level
Role bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty
Jaguar
+1 Low-slot
Minmatar Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret Damage per level 7.5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret Tracking per level
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Projectile Turret Optimal Range per level 5% bonus to Small Projectile Damage per level
Role bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty
Wolf
+200 ArmorHP +10 CPU +1 Low-slot
Minmatar Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret Damage per level
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret Damage per level 10% bonus to Small Projectile Falloff Range per level
Role bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty |
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CCP Lemur
86

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Posted - 2011.12.23 10:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
When the stuff hits Sisi and the designer is ready to take in your feedback. The Chaos server is for internal development and not for public testing and commenting. QA Guy | Actually Existing | A-Team Signature up to your IMGination. |
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ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers Galactic-Rangers
46
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Posted - 2011.12.23 13:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
lol, the wolf is so awesome it doesnt get its last bonus, but still gets an additional low slot :-P |

Axel Greye
Nova Ardour
26
|
Posted - 2011.12.23 13:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
ITTigerClawIK wrote:lol, the wolf is so awesome it doesnt get its last bonus, but still gets an additional low slot :-P IKR! Give the Wolf a Tracking bonus Atleast to keep it on par with the Enyo somewhat. sheesh people, Balance! |

Tsubutai
The Tuskers
34
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Posted - 2011.12.23 14:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
Axel Greye wrote:ITTigerClawIK wrote:lol, the wolf is so awesome it doesnt get its last bonus, but still gets an additional low slot :-P IKR! Give the Wolf a Tracking bonus Atleast to keep it on par with the Enyo somewhat. sheesh people, Balance! It did apparently get a tracking bonus, the original post about the data dump was in error. The corrected version is here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/nmv25/from_chaos_with_love_to_assault_frigates/ |

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
57
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Posted - 2011.12.23 14:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
Give them all a bonus to afterburners and they will be lovely... Seriously no kidding. (oh and make MWD penalties a worse at the same time) |

Axel Greye
Nova Ardour
26
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Posted - 2011.12.23 15:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
Tsubutai wrote:Axel Greye wrote:ITTigerClawIK wrote:lol, the wolf is so awesome it doesnt get its last bonus, but still gets an additional low slot :-P IKR! Give the Wolf a Tracking bonus Atleast to keep it on par with the Enyo somewhat. sheesh people, Balance! It did apparently get a tracking bonus, the original post about the data dump was in error. The corrected version is here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/nmv25/from_chaos_with_love_to_assault_frigates/ THank goodness. In which case I rest my case, I would nag that wolf would loooove a third mid rather than a 5th low, but I won't be picky. <3 |

Axel Greye
Nova Ardour
26
|
Posted - 2011.12.23 15:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
Pinky Denmark wrote:Give them all a bonus to afterburners and they will be lovely... Seriously no kidding. (oh and make MWD penalties a worse at the same time) Yeh, MWD's for ceptors, AB's for Assault frigs. |

Zarak1 Kenpach1
Aperture Harmonics K162
25
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Posted - 2011.12.23 16:34:00 -
[9] - Quote
i take it you didnt see the ab bonus' that were on sisi last time. those were about as modest as could be made and they still turned out overpowered and ridiculous. your not going to get the ab bonus so just stop saying it =P
besides, none of these can do ceptor speeds |

Axel Greye
Nova Ardour
26
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Posted - 2011.12.23 16:44:00 -
[10] - Quote
still, MWDs are almost never used on an AF, they are used on AF fittings in nullsec, but only to catch other AF's, in which case the sig penalty is moot as it's all small guns anyway. leave the dedicated speed/sig tackling to ceptors and give AF's something more useful.
give them increased sensor strengths or something. ceptors for initial point, followed by heavy tackler AF's that are jam-resistant. |
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Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
252
|
Posted - 2011.12.23 19:38:00 -
[11] - Quote
mwd's are always used by good AF pilots. right now, AF's are glorified tacklers. thats all theyre good for. AB AF's get kited and raped by nano canes, t1 cruisers with mwd, etc.
this is looking very interesting. might work.
p.s. i think the bonus to drone HP for the Ishkur is huge. this should give it the resiliency against other AF's like the Wolf that rely on sniping the drones quickly. |

m0cking bird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
39
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Posted - 2011.12.23 20:21:00 -
[12] - Quote
Based on that garbage. Seems like CCP plans on screwing over interceptors completely. Nice! Not that I use them much over assault frigates any-more, but whatever. Other than the role bonus the rest of it seems interesting. I'm glad they're thinking along the way I view things. Focus on weapon system damage, with the exception of the Vengeance and Hawk. Those 2 should focus more on damage mitigation or more effective hit-points.
Assault ships should mirror Heavy assault cruisers and battle-cruiser dynamics. They should have the defence of a cruiser, with T2 resist and higher velocity. While being able to have the damage output of a battle-cruiser.
I would like those same dynamics, but with Assault frigates and Destroyers. More damage in-line with the current damage output of destroyers, while maintaining the effective hit-points of a T1 frigate with T2 resist.
Also, I would like to be able to use long range turrets and missiles on certain assault frigates. Kinda like the Muninn, Zealot and Cerberus. I'm finding it hard to put those set-ups together.
Also, based on those changes. Certain frigates seem very overpowered: Ishkur, Jaguar, Wolf, Harpy, Vengeance.
-proxyyyy |

Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
252
|
Posted - 2011.12.23 20:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
inties are fine. there's no way AF's will be able to achieve the same speeds and agility. speed IS defense for AF's. the AB bonus buff allowed them to mimic armour-AB HAC's, but this was OP. |

Zarak1 Kenpach1
Aperture Harmonics K162
25
|
Posted - 2011.12.23 20:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
these changes do not *obsolete* any of the ceptor hulls. no assault ship will be getting a range increase to points, agility or speed so, i agree with hungry eyes.
these changes do however let them hit above their weight class which is sexy as all hell |

Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
252
|
Posted - 2011.12.23 21:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
hope they put this on sisi soon. |

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
151
|
Posted - 2011.12.23 21:58:00 -
[16] - Quote
Yeah, uh, I wouldn't expect any big re-balancing threads or announcements to be up until CCP are all back from their Christmas holidays.
The chaos statdump (if its genuine) might be an interesting starting point but I'd like to see some of the theory behind it all. More than a 4th bonus, more than an afterburner boost, what we need to see for assault ships is a vision of the role they're supposed to fill and how that differs form the role other types of frigates (and destroyers) are supposed to fill, and how to make sure there's a viable niche for each category to occupy. |

Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
252
|
Posted - 2011.12.23 22:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
the role of AF's has always been to take down "bigger stuff". this role has not been realized, but thats what it is. |

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
151
|
Posted - 2011.12.24 00:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
Hungry Eyes wrote:the role of AF's has always been to take down "bigger stuff". this role has not been realized, but thats what it is. "Take down bigger stuff" might be an interesting niche for them but would want a little more than what we've seen here to become properly realised and to avoid them becoming a "Take down bigger stuff, oh and same size stuff, ok basically kill everything" ship which ended up stamping on the toes of existing hulls (specifically the faction frigs, interceptors and newly-improved destroyers).
I've mentioned elsewhere an idea of them being the frigate that can hold a tackle better than the other types of frigate, so they can keep a target locked down long after interceptors or faction frigs would have had to bail because of neuts or e-war - for this to work they'd benefit from something like a hull resistance to electronic warfare and energy emission systems modules. |

m0cking bird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
41
|
Posted - 2011.12.24 00:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
With the exception of the stiletto. Most fleet interceptors are terrible. Mainly because a Stiletto can fit 1 medium shield extender.
Anyway, from what I've read. The Bonuses and changes to the Enyo, Hawk and Retribution are not substantial. Atleast compared to the other assault frigates.
Jaguar: The Jaguar would have no weaknesses. You could use a dual medium shield extender set-up, with a damage control and possible 2 damage modules. You will not have to down grade to 125mm auto-cannons to track afterbunering frigates. The only thing it would lack is projection damage. However, you could use one of the low slots for a tracking enhancer. Just with a damage control and 2 medium shield extender. The Jaguar can have around 12,000 effective hit-points or you could use a invulnerable field. After you factor in shield rigs. Even more hit-points
Vengeance: I'm already able to put together a perma-running neutralize set-up for the Vengeance. This means unless another frigate has a capacitor booster. I can shut off all their modules until my ship is destroyed. That is a built in GTFO ability. Works really well, but I was using a all turret set-up. Apart from that, which will be viable with rocket launchers if CCP goes ahead with these changes. The Vengeance can permanently run one repair and have a very large effective hit-points. While maintaining 130 - 140 damage per second. More than enough damage already. Only the most damaging assault frigates can engage this ship effectively @ the moment and survive. Increasing the Vengeance rate of fire is a big mistake. However, CCP went and made some of the other overpowered too.
Ishkur: Well, giving this ship one low slot is just increasing it's tank. Does not take much to make this overpowered. Those who have some insight on this frigate and figure out the rest Here.
Wolf: Now, not only does it already have the best gank-tank ratio of all the assault ships. CCP is suggesting increasing tank further, while maintaining that nice 300 damage per second. Not to mention it now has bonuses to tracking. No weaknesses other than only having 2 mid slots. However most frigates will not survive a engagement with this ship if they stayed under scrambler range.
Harpies: This will be better than the Eyno and will be more in-line with the Vengeance. Has range bonus which helps with damage projection and will allow it to out-damage most every ship under warp scrambler range. Except The Ishkur, Enyo, Wolf, Retribution. CCP seems to want to turn it into a little Drake with Blasters (shield resist bonus). Thing will be able to use a neutraliser. Set-up correctly, it will be able to active tank and track with blasters with the new changes to hybrids. Or just beast buffer tank like a dual mse Jaguar.
I would like to add the retribution, because it would be closer in-line with a Coercer in terms of damage if CCP went forward with these changes. Not to mention a bonus to Tracking and a mid slot. I will be using these alot to deal with the other OP ones.
If these ships get a sig bonus. What makes interceptors unique and worth using? A little more warp disruption range? What does it matter when you'll be fly swatted anyway. Doesn't a frigate with more tank become the better option? Also their are less than a handful of cruisers faster than 2,000m/sec and every frigate is significantly faster than that.
Even some of the best interceptor pilots in-game can see what these changes would mean. All I'm saying is at-least let interceptor keep their useful signature bonus. It's all they have. Assault ships do not need a role bonus. Focus on damage and projected damage for these ships. With the exception of the Vengeance and Hawk (these ships should focus on defence).
-proxyyyy |

Jaigar
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe Transmission Lost
16
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Posted - 2011.12.24 07:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
I like where these changes are going, but they seem a bit over the top.
If they are actually datamined, I can only imagine what they have in store for EAFs.. |
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m0cking bird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
42
|
Posted - 2011.12.24 08:10:00 -
[21] - Quote
m0cking bird wrote:Hungry Eyes wrote:Wacktopia wrote:m0cking bird wrote:Based on that garbage. Seems like CCP plans on screwing over interceptors completely. Inties still have the speed advantage and agility advantage. and warp disruption bonuses. and sig radius advantage. as usual, i have no idea what the hell mockingbird is talking about. I made a reference to r3tards... What agility advantage? How much does that factor into frigate engagements? You know, with-in warp scrambler range with a Crusader, Claw, and Taranis. Provided said ships only have a micro-warp drive fitted. How long do you think they would last under assault frigate damage. Signature bonus. How has that helped Interceptors in the current environment? Having to engage ships increasingly using Tracking enhancers will only lead to loss mail. For any frigate even ones with useless bonuses to signature radius. Nice! 6,000 meters more compared to a standard warp disruptor. I almost never see tackling frigates any more. Most likely, because it's a waste of time to fly them currently. Now, I believe interceptors have been a joke ever since the changes to pirate faction and navy faction frigates. However, their signature bonus, while useless in the current environment is pretty much all that these frigates have. Their velocity does not mean much if they have to come under warp scrambler range, with regards to the Crusader, Taranis, and Claw. Most interceptors with bonuses to warp disruption range cannot apply damage from that range and do not survive long enough to matter currently (with one exception, which takes a little longer to explode). Assault frigates are superior to Interceptors when engaging another frigate or any other ship class. Their is a limit to useful velocity of ships. I don't need a frigate going 3,000m/sec for the most part. How does that help you when you need to commit to apply damage and all frigates are superior in terms of velocity to every other class of ship. With these changes, you will be able to use assault frigates with better tank and damage. Making them much better for tackling ships using tracking enhancers. You know, Jaguars and Ishkur with 15,000 effective hit-points and bonuses to signature radius. This will be the first and only time I'll ever respond to you, because this was a serious waste of time. Also, do not read my post. You're not allowed and I don't want you to learn something... HAPPY HOLIDAYS! Also, if you cannot put together a medium pulse laser retribution with a warp disruptor, micro-warp drive and armour repair. You're terrible @ spaceships. However, I believe you are trying to put together a close range Retribution, which would be easier to set-up. Also if it was someone's intention to so. You would never use medium pulse lasers because of tracking. Also, I already touched on the Enyo in-game when I was speaking to some peeps about these changes today. I would prefer the rail-Enyo. Otherwise, to many other assault frigates are just better close range... -proxyyyy
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Lexmana
Imperial Stout
115
|
Posted - 2011.12.24 10:39:00 -
[22] - Quote
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:i take it you didnt see the ab bonus' that were on sisi last time. those were about as modest as could be made and they still turned out overpowered and ridiculous. your not going to get the ab bonus so just stop saying it =P
besides, none of these can do ceptor speeds
I never tried the AB bonused AFs but I can see how they could become OP. How about nerfing their agility some and ad a small AB bonus? That would make them very good in scram range against bigger ships but less powerful against MWD frigs.
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RougeOperator
Autocannons Anonymous
111
|
Posted - 2011.12.24 10:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
I say lets test them before we all scream "the sky is falling".
OK. |

PinkKnife
Garden Of The Gods Divinity.
27
|
Posted - 2011.12.24 11:47:00 -
[24] - Quote
Throwing in the additional comments, given that it is internal, I'm just putting out thoughts, rather than criticising CCP.
I think the problem is that you can't buff AF speed without pushing the redundancy problem to the interceptors. Give the AFs too much speed and their DPS and tank outweighs the benefits of using an interceptor. Likewise, Inty's are used now largely only for their speed. The role bonus to AFs would negate what INTY's essentially have to train level IV interceptors to get.
Given this, a reason to fly Interceptors would need to be created, perhaps give them a role bonus to interdiction maneuvers? Just a thought.
Alternatively, if we are thinking that destroyers are Battle Cruisers, and T2 frigs are T2 Cruisers, how do we define the differences between battlecruisers and HACs? Generally, hacs are more agile, and do potentially more dps, or have other nich aspects.
Likewise, should we see AF's tank/gank buffed a bit to match the same idea? |

Avila Cracko
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
139
|
Posted - 2011.12.24 13:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
If you do this... please CCP buff Interceptors too then. Don't kill one more class of ships.
And... you know it, we know it, that Interceptors need buff even if AF don't get this bonus. |

m0cking bird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
42
|
Posted - 2011.12.24 15:18:00 -
[26] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote:Throwing in the additional comments, given that it is internal, I'm just putting out thoughts, rather than criticising CCP.
I think the problem is that you can't buff AF speed without pushing the redundancy problem to the interceptors. Give the AFs too much speed and their DPS and tank outweighs the benefits of using an interceptor. Likewise, Inty's are used now largely only for their speed. The role bonus to AFs would negate what INTY's essentially have to train level IV interceptors to get.
Given this, a reason to fly Interceptors would need to be created, perhaps give them a role bonus to interdiction maneuvers? Just a thought.
Alternatively, if we are thinking that destroyers are Battle Cruisers, and T2 frigs are T2 Cruisers, how do we define the differences between battlecruisers and HACs? Generally, hacs are more agile, and do potentially more dps, or have other nich aspects.
Likewise, should we see AF's tank/gank buffed a bit to match the same idea?
+1
Giving the vengeance more damage would be a mistake. The Retribution and Coercer are fine as they are now. Fleet Interceptors are terrible currently. That has everything to do with the prevalence of cruisers and battle-cruisers using tracking enhancers. Has been this way for awhile. Given the choice between a myriad of frigates for the purpose of tackling. Dramiel's are used because of survivability.
Jaguars will be increasingly added to that. I was in a "out of character channel" when I first heard of these changes. Most indicated they'll be using assault frigates more often for fleet engagements if this were to happen. They're cheaper than using a Dramiel and more survivable than Interceptors (h0m0's). Beening in this game for so long. Anyone can see where these retards will flock to (easy mode, I win, easy to use, easy to lose etc).
I'm completely against increasing assault frigates defensive capabilities. I am for increasing their damage output with the exception of the Vengeance and Hawk. Mirroring the heavy assault cruiser, battle-cruiser dichotomy (Frigate tank with destroyer damage).
One extreme measure I brought up yesterday was to get rid of the whole assault ship class and merge it into Interceptors. Making assault frigates just another tier within the interceptor class, with differing role bonuses. Pretty much getting rid of the Wolf, Enyo, Harpy, Crusader, Taranis, Claw, Crow and Retribution (would be crazy to see some of these go). Leaving the rest as the new Interceptor class. Also at-least 3 Electronic assault frigates are fine. I tend to use the Keres more than any other frigate for tackling in fleet engagements (one sensor dampner, warp scrambler, medium shield extender, warp disruptor (36km) and micro-warp drive). Only the Heyna seems bad. However, all frigates seem terrible for fleet engagements these days, even a Dramiel. |

Zarak1 Kenpach1
Aperture Harmonics K162
25
|
Posted - 2011.12.24 17:17:00 -
[27] - Quote
RougeOperator wrote:I say lets test them before we all scream "the sky is falling".
OK.
+1
i fully regret ever having made this thread now. i do look forward to trying these things out on sisi as well.
mod please lock this since you said chaos server stufff is not to be discussed or given feedback on this board. |

tankus2
Endless Destruction Imperial Ascension
22
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Posted - 2011.12.24 18:07:00 -
[28] - Quote
given that this ideas thread covers every aspect of the gimped AFs while keeping the ungimped ones from being broken AND not stepping on other class' toes (including interceptors and faction frigates), it should be looked into as well. Where the science gets done |

leich
Sad Panda'z Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
5
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Posted - 2011.12.24 18:32:00 -
[29] - Quote
if all these ships that dont need any changes are getting a buff are we going have get the dram fixed?
These Buffs to asult ships are a complete waste of time and effort i really dont see the point.
the dram was been made useless by recent changes and now you going to make assult ships better than it this doesnt make sense.
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m0cking bird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
42
|
Posted - 2011.12.24 18:40:00 -
[30] - Quote
This will be able to run a neutraliser permanently. 220 damage per second (160 scorch), 11.5k effective hit-points, 2150m/sec
Retribution
Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Adaptive Nano Plating II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Heat Sink II Heat Sink II
Small Energy Burst Aerator I Small Energy Collision Accelerator I
Same idea as the one above, but more range. Obviously the point is to prolong being caught by another Assault frigate as long as possible. Mainly the Minmatar assault frigates and the Vengeance. If their running a single armour repair and no capacitor booster or just rolling with a damage control. Things will perish.
[Retribution
Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters Warp Disruptor II
Tracking Enhancer II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Internal Force Field Array I Adaptive Nano Plating II Heat Sink II
Small Energy Locus Coordinator I Small Energy Collision Accelerator II
I'll be posting Ishkur and Enyo comparison set-up later on today. You'll see that both ships do basically the same damage with these changes. I'll go into the Vengeance and Hawk alot more and link some overpowered set-ups. I'll also compared the Enyo with wolf and why a rail-gun Enyo would be the most viable set-up. I'll also put together a Jaguar with the new changes for those who lack insight. |
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