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Waiting for the Cargo Expander blancing

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Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 14:26:00 - [31] Edited by: Battlecheese on 27/03/2007 14:44:52 Edited by: Battlecheese on 27/03/2007 14:27:47 Originally by: Brother Funkyshades yo battlecheese, whats your problem? the only one showing a soft mind is... well, you. steady on old chap. I'm not entirely sure you justify this point of view. Originally by: Brother Funkyshades plus there is another thing: sure your badger can haul less. but it can fit a great passive tank, which is of great use in several circumstances, even with warp to zero. Yes, I like my badger. But it is half the size. And if I train up for transports, I will still be 10000m3 behind. Originally by: Brother Funkyshades in fact your attitude is disgusting and your arguments are flawed (at best) and i really wonder why i wasted 2 minutes in trying to help you understand. Everyone is getting dreadfully excited about this, but it is still not clear to me why only things people complain about get stacking penalties. Why isn't there a uniform system? Edit: excised sweeping generalisation
Sir Howard Gallente SAS. The Foundation.	Posted - 2007.03.27 14:45:00 - [32] Originally by: Battlecheese As a good Caldari, it pains me to see other races CoughGallenteCough swanning around in their ridiculously large IteronVs, leaving our noble BadgerIIs looking woefully sub-par. The reason for this is, obviously, the currently un-stacking-nerfed behavior of Cargo Expanders. Clearly the more vitriolic members of our community feel less strongly about hauling than they do about shooting, but it still seems very inconsistent to leave cargo-expanders out of the stacking-nerfage. Another issue which might as well be discussed at the same time is the current penalty. With the pathetic cave-in which was Warp-to-0, straight-line speed has become almost completely irrelevant. It certainly does not do anything to discourage people from fitting as many expanders as they can. heh..uhoh Caldari arent the best at something..better nerf it. Your logic is flawed, you want to nerf expanders just so your Badger will be closer to hauling as a Itty 5. Thats rediculous...thats like saying 'well my Megathron just cant hold as many drones as a domi...its not fair we better put a nerf on the ammount of drones a ship can hold' "This is a bad idea wrapped in a horrible plan and shipped in a retarded box"
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 14:51:00 - [33] Originally by: Sir Howard heh..uhoh Caldari arent the best at something..better nerf it. Your logic is flawed, you want to nerf expanders just so your Badger will be closer to hauling as a Itty 5. Thats rediculous...thats like saying 'well my Megathron just cant hold as many drones as a domi...its not fair we better put a nerf on the ammount of drones a ship can hold' Yes, and my Moa doesn't shoot missiles as well as my caracal.
Sir Howard Gallente SAS. The Foundation.	Posted - 2007.03.27 15:06:00 - [34] Yes roll your eyes.. The itty 5 is better than your badger II so you want to nerf the haulers defining mod so as to lessen the better ship of the two. Thats horrible logic, I'd rather see someone asking for another lowslot. And seriously, like someone else said earlier train for an itty 5 over a badger II its not like you have a ton of skill time invested into industrial prereqs. "This is a bad idea wrapped in a horrible plan and shipped in a retarded box"
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 15:19:00 - [35] Ok. Lets be clear on this. I am not advocating that the IteronV be nerfed. I am asking why cargo expanders are not stacking-penalised. It has been regularly shown in the past that the ability to stack large numbers of a particular module (or sort of module) on a ship such that it becomes a solopwnmachine of some sort is regarded as overpowered. For notes: search for gankageddon, and nano-*
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.27 15:21:00 - [36] Originally by: Battlecheese But this is all getting off the topic a bit. Why aren't cargo expanders stacking-nerfed? and is anyone attempting to defend the velocity handicap as effective? Why should expanders be stacking nerfed? Seriously. Just because some combat modules are stacking nerfed is not an argument on why expanders should be. And really the Caldari are nowhere near as nerfed hauler wise versus Gallente. The Badger-II is fine. The Gallente lineup is rather sucky until you get the Mk-V. Now, it takes Industrial-5 for a Mk-V. If you train Caldari to Industrial-5 you are about an hour from training a Transport ship and there ya go...Caldari ships that can haul on par with Gallente. And only Caldari can do the venerable Battle Badger!
Sir Howard Gallente SAS. The Foundation.	Posted - 2007.03.27 15:36:00 - [37] Ok fine then I'm done arguing... Lets nerf the Itty 5 cause its the best hauler....then we can nerf the raven because I just cant seem to do missions as fast in my domi. "This is a bad idea wrapped in a horrible plan and shipped in a retarded box"
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 15:43:00 - [38] Originally by: Humpalot Why should expanders be stacking nerfed? Seriously. Just because some combat modules are stacking nerfed is not an argument on why expanders should be. I don't think I would describe nanofibres as combat modules. At what point does obsessive fitting of one module-type become overpowered?
Brother Funkyshades	Posted - 2007.03.27 15:57:00 - [39] Originally by: Battlecheese steady on old chap. I'm not entirely sure you justify this point of view. doesnt matter, you are proving in nearly every post, we dont have to rely on your superior logic. but tbh to you, most of us dont know why expanders arent stacking nerfed. same goes for cap rechargers, cap batteries, shield extenders, shield rechargers, pdus, rcus, sprs and whatnot. how about you start a clueless thread on each and everyone of those things? your statement the speed penalty is neglectable since wtz is only one of the arguments you used to prove your superior thinking power, btw. and the only reason im not very friendly to you, is simply because you are rude to people that completely pwnt your reasoning and you still act like a *****
Dynast	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:09:00 - [40] Originally by: Battlecheese Originally by: Raekone Been doing lvl 4's for the past 3 years. I'm walking away from this now as you've stopped reasoning and resorted to sulking :p Whatever. I think you're just bitter because you betrayed your race because you thought you couldn't do missions unless you flew Caldari. .... anyway. getting back to cargo expanders? There's no compelling reason to stack nerf cargo expanders. Especially not to correct some perceived Caldari disadvantage in hauling, given that Caldari have the highest volume Freighter. And, if you're trying to deny that Caldari ships are by far the best mission runners, both in ISK/hour and ease of missioning, you're full of crap. Missioning in a Caracal/Drake/Raven (which I do; I fly Gallente for PvP) is pathetically easy compared to even the best non-caldari options. The races aren't meant to be exactly the same, get over it.
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:10:00 - [41] Originally by: Brother Funkyshades and the only reason im not very friendly to you, is simply because you are rude to people that completely pwnt your reasoning and you still act like a ***** meh. Transparent Gallente sympathiser. I shall alert the amarr authorities.
Kolwrath	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:16:00 - [42] Originally by: Raekone I'll bet you know already what I'm going to say here, but here goes anyway. Ravens doing missions. Want to do lvl 4's properly you simply HAVE to train ravens, you have NO choice there is NO alternative. You can't have all ships doing the same thing! Or we couldn't go "ooh but you know which race has really good alpha strike ships? The minmatar!" etc Yes is offtopic but what you said in the first paragraph is utter BS. I run a domi in Lvl4s, as do alot of people. Some of my corpies run Abbadons or Maelstoms. Back on topic, you are right. Some races are better for some things than others. Yeah Iteron Vs are the defacto hauling kings of T1, but T2 is ruled by the Amarr Impel. Also I might add that I see far more Mammoths flying around than ANY other indy in my region. Sorry but you are wrong in that the Iteron is the only way to go for hauling. Just as the Raven is the only way to go for Missioning.
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:21:00 - [43] Originally by: Battlecheese Originally by: Brother Funkyshades and the only reason im not very friendly to you, is simply because you are rude to people that completely pwnt your reasoning and you still act like a ***** meh. Transparent Gallente sympathiser. I shall alert the amarr authorities. You know if you stack nerf the cargo then you'll be nerfing yourself for one, and then also a reduction in the cargo size of the bager mark II to be inline with the iteron mark III. Now with this add on the iteron now has much less cargo hold and then so does the bager, and every other hauler. Iteron now with everyone nerfed will be the best still but by a larger gap then before because of it's large base cargo.
R'adeh Gallente Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:24:00 - [44] Yay, let's make all races exactly the same \o/ o// \\o o> Think about it, it's as if you were saying "my thorax doesn't have missiles, haxomfg!!". _______________________________________________ My views are my own and I don't represent my corp.
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:29:00 - [45] Originally by: Vincent Almasy You know if you stack nerf the cargo then you'll be nerfing yourself for one, and then also a reduction in the cargo size of the bager mark II to be inline with the iteron mark III. Now with this add on the iteron now has much less cargo hold and then so does the bager, and every other hauler. Iteron now with everyone nerfed will be the best still but by a larger gap then before because of it's large base cargo. Base Sizes: BadgerII 5250 IteronV 6000 The difference would only be about 20%, rather less than 100%. (because skills, stacking-penalised cargo expanders would not change this ratio)
Dark Flare Caldari Corpus PCG	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:34:00 - [46] Edited by: Dark Flare on 27/03/2007 16:31:20 If you've got that much of an issue with it, train for Gallente industrials. Hardly takes long. Each race is better at different things. Seems like you've just found Gallente's best advantage! Dark Flare - Corpus PCG
Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa The Perfect Harvesting Experience	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:36:00 - [47] Because hauling would become really tedious if every expander after the 3rd or 4th would become worthless and all of them would work with deminishing returns. And we're still talking belt-station hauls here... any other type has become less relevant with the introduction of freighters.... at least as long as we are discussing transported volume here. ----------------------------------------------- Originally by: Paper Rock's fine, nerf Scissors
heheheh Singularity.	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:36:00 - [48] Originally by: Battlecheese Originally by: Brother Funkyshades and the only reason im not very friendly to you, is simply because you are rude to people that completely pwnt your reasoning and you still act like a ***** meh. Transparent Gallente sympathiser. I shall alert the amarr authorities. If in doubt, roleplay your way out.
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:38:00 - [49] Originally by: Battlecheese Originally by: Vincent Almasy You know if you stack nerf the cargo then you'll be nerfing yourself for one, and then also a reduction in the cargo size of the bager mark II to be inline with the iteron mark III. Now with this add on the iteron now has much less cargo hold and then so does the bager, and every other hauler. Iteron now with everyone nerfed will be the best still but by a larger gap then before because of it's large base cargo. Base Sizes: BadgerII 5250 IteronV 6000 The difference would only be about 20%, rather less than 100%. (because skills, stacking-penalised cargo expanders would not change this ratio) Ok then, what do the other races then get for a caldari short fall where they always are ment to have the least lows but the most mids?
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:41:00 - [50] Originally by: Vincent Almasy Ok then, what do the other races then get for a caldari short fall where they always are ment to have the least lows but the most mids? They get to fit a tank if they want to pvp? (minmatar have this problem a bit too).
Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa The Perfect Harvesting Experience	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:41:00 - [51] Indeed, Badger Mk II is king of Industrial E-War. ----------------------------------------------- Originally by: Paper Rock's fine, nerf Scissors
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:44:00 - [52] Originally by: Battlecheese Originally by: Vincent Almasy Ok then, what do the other races then get for a caldari short fall where they always are ment to have the least lows but the most mids? They get to fit a tank if they want to pvp? (minmatar have this problem a bit too). PvP in a industrial ship... right, now be nice to the men in the white coats when they come to your house. They are your friends.
Natalja Tomaszewski State War Academy	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:51:00 - [53] From industrial 3 to 5 its 19 additional days. I have no problems with the IteronIV being the best Indy.
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:52:00 - [54] Originally by: Vincent Almasy Originally by: Battlecheese Originally by: Vincent Almasy Ok then, what do the other races then get for a caldari short fall where they always are ment to have the least lows but the most mids? They get to fit a tank if they want to pvp? (minmatar have this problem a bit too). PvP in a industrial ship... right, now be nice to the men in the white coats when they come to your house. They are your friends. Oh, industrials. I'm not sure why I answered that anyway, I never discussed changing the slot layout.
Abye SniggWaffe Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.03.27 17:09:00 - [55] A Badger Mark 3 might be the easiest solution. On a sidenote, Gallente Transport ships sell easily while other races transport ships are sitting on the shelves, that is because most people that want to go for major hauling get Gallente Industrial 5. Freighters aren't that problematic because they are tech1 but the ratio between Obelisks and the other freighters is still impressive. ___ Inappropriate signature. Please do not use this signature. Email us for more information -Eldo ([email protected])
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.27 17:12:00 - [56] Originally by: Battlecheese Originally by: Humpalot Why should expanders be stacking nerfed? Seriously. Just because some combat modules are stacking nerfed is not an argument on why expanders should be. I don't think I would describe nanofibres as combat modules. At what point does obsessive fitting of one module-type become overpowered? I think from the get go of design in EVE it was expected that people would be likely to fit all expanders in low on a hauler. That's all it does. I think with nanoes there was likely some assumption that fitting all nanoes in would mess up your ship more than it helped so as not to be a very attractive choice. Turned out there were wrong and they fixed that. But people have been putting all expanders in they can since forever and honestly this is the first I have ever heard of someone wanting them stacking nerfed.
JamnOne	Posted - 2007.03.27 17:41:00 - [57] Edited by: JamnOne on 27/03/2007 17:39:10 Originally by: Raekone This is simply just another difference between races... gallentean haulers are built to do their job properly, while caldari ones seem a bit crap like you say. Without basic differences like these we'd be playing a rather boring game really. I am not sure about the game being boring but I must agree in that each race should be a little bit different.
Halapino CAPITAL TRUST FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.27 17:43:00 - [58] Isn't the fact that the Gallente version has more space based on race? The Caldari uses mid slots for it's mods, sheilds. And the Gallente use low slots for it's mods, armor. The only real fair solution from an all-race point of view would be to either stack nerf the expanders or limit the ammount of expanders you can fit, so even if you have 6 low slots you can only fit 3. The race specific fix would be to modify all races to have the same amount of mid/low slots... but then a differant group of people would complain about inequality. So... pick your poison?
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:00:00 - [59] If you just need to haul a few goods you train amarr industrial to I. If you think you might go for freighter in the future but want to haul decent amounts in the meanwhile without too much time invested, you train Caldari to III or Minmatar to IV. If you want to haul the max in an industrial, then you train Gallente to V. Why would you want to take away this choice and make them all equal? Eve is about choices from start till the end of the game.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:43:00 - [60] Cargo expanders are hardly the only "overused" module that is not stacking-nerfed. I'd point the finger at all modules and rigs that affect shield/capacitor recharge time. No stacking nerfs there either. IF they'd be stacking-nerfed, passive shield tanking would be badly nerfed (and caldari would be the best possible passive shield tankers by far, not almost on par with gallente and some minmatar), and most non-capbooster-driven active tank setups (armor or shield, doesn't really matter) would see a severely limited lifespan due to pathetic capacitor recharge rate. Stack-nerfing cargo size percent bonus would basically mean everything past the 4th expander is practically worthless, and it would also mean if you have 3 cargo expander rigs fited, they become next to useless after you add a 3rd expander (rigged or unrigged, about the same end results)... you know, kind of like overdrives and speed rigs now, but even worse. So basically, all you'd do is to make most industrials carry proportional loads to their base cargo, and have a lot of unused (or seldom used) slots. ___ By the way, can I ask WHAT the heck do you even need a HUGE carry capacity for ? There's really little incentive to not pick up a freighter instead, skill-wise you're almost there after you have L5 industrial. Sure, it's a lot more ISK, but also a whole lot of cargo. Forget Badger, get a Charon, they're really cheap too (compared to Obelisks, that is). Also, if you could be arsed to train L5 industrial (personally, I couldn't, not yet anyway), might as well spend an extra 20-some mil on the skillbook and train up L1 transports. Most deep-space transports have a carry capacity that comes (somewhat) close to the one of the Iteron V anyway. Not quite there, but close enough. Besides, the extra tanking ability never hurts... I drool at the idea of finishing training for a Bustard (tank setup of over 16k shield recharge in under 300 seconds, with lowest resist 60% EXP). ___ The only GOOD idea (about a gameplay change) over here ? To create a new Tech-1 industrial ship (hey, why only for Caldari ? why not Amarr and Minmatar too?) that needs L5 racial industrial to fly. Balance out potential carry capacity (base cargo, amount of lowslots) so that they're relatively close to eachother in maximum carried load, and consistent with the racial "philosophy". Everything else is caca-del-torro. _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained

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