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Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 10:49:00 - [1] As a good Caldari, it pains me to see other races CoughGallenteCough swanning around in their ridiculously large IteronVs, leaving our noble BadgerIIs looking woefully sub-par. The reason for this is, obviously, the currently un-stacking-nerfed behavior of Cargo Expanders. Clearly the more vitriolic members of our community feel less strongly about hauling than they do about shooting, but it still seems very inconsistent to leave cargo-expanders out of the stacking-nerfage. Another issue which might as well be discussed at the same time is the current penalty. With the pathetic cave-in which was Warp-to-0, straight-line speed has become almost completely irrelevant. It certainly does not do anything to discourage people from fitting as many expanders as they can.
Raekone	Posted - 2007.03.27 10:59:00 - [2] This is simply just another difference between races... gallentean haulers are built to do their job properly, while caldari ones seem a bit crap like you say. Without basic differences like these we'd be playing a rather boring game really.
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:02:00 - [3] Please point out any other class of ships where a factor of 2 in capability is tolerated? I don't mind "better". I'm not sure that "not even in the same ballpark" is even in fitting with the RP aspect.
Raekone	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:06:00 - [4] I'll bet you know already what I'm going to say here, but here goes anyway. Ravens doing missions. Want to do lvl 4's properly you simply HAVE to train ravens, you have NO choice there is NO alternative. You can't have all ships doing the same thing! Or we couldn't go "ooh but you know which race has really good alpha strike ships? The minmatar!" etc
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:07:00 - [5] Originally by: Battlecheese other races ..large IteronVs Say, why are you interested about the balance between races? Does it have actual effect on gameplay outside the summit forum? IMHO it is enough to balance between heavily SP invested skill trees (for example BS class gunships should be equally usable to BS class missileships). Hauling is pretty separated tree; when you decide to start training for those things it doesn't really matter much what ships you've flown before. So if you're pure non-hauling Caldari, just train for Iteron V (at cost of a few extra days). Now if we accepted that hauling is intended sub-role for capital ships, we might be run into these balancing issues.. -Lasse
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:13:00 - [6] I'm sorry, you're Gallente softness of intellect is showing through here. If you look a few lines further down in this very forum, you will see threads about lvl4 configurations. The Dominix in this case. (note: there is also a raven thread, but as you mentioned, there are many of those). I dispute your suggestion that Caldari is the only race for mission-running.
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:16:00 - [7] Edited by: Battlecheese on 27/03/2007 11:14:07 Originally by: Heikki Say, why are you interested about the balance between races? Does it have actual effect on gameplay outside the summit forum? Pls try to organise a multi-barge mining op, then get back to me :) Edit: for best effect you need to be hauling at least one system away.
Raekone	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:20:00 - [8] Originally by: Battlecheese I'm sorry, you're Gallente softness of intellect is showing through here. If you look a few lines further down in this very forum, you will see threads about lvl4 configurations. The Dominix in this case. (note: there is also a raven thread, but as you mentioned, there are many of those). I dispute your suggestion that Caldari is the only race for mission-running. Indeed caldari aren't the only race for mission running - just like iterons aren't the only haulers. But in both cases they're the only choice if you want to get something done :)
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:23:00 - [9] Originally by: Raekone Indeed caldari aren't the only race for mission running - just like iterons aren't the only haulers. But in both cases they're the only choice if you want to get something done :) Methinks you should trust the forums less, and go try some missions.
Raekone	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:25:00 - [10] Originally by: Battlecheese Originally by: Raekone Indeed caldari aren't the only race for mission running - just like iterons aren't the only haulers. But in both cases they're the only choice if you want to get something done :) Methinks you should trust the forums less, and go try some missions. Been doing lvl 4's for the past 3 years. I'm walking away from this now as you've stopped reasoning and resorted to sulking :p
Koramaur	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:32:00 - [11] Badger Mk 2 pre-req: Caldari Industrial III Iteron V pre-req: Gallente Industrial V You're complaining that someone with at the very least 20 more days of training can haul more than you? Are you surprised?
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:32:00 - [12] Originally by: Raekone Been doing lvl 4's for the past 3 years. I'm walking away from this now as you've stopped reasoning and resorted to sulking :p Whatever. I think you're just bitter because you betrayed your race because you thought you couldn't do missions unless you flew Caldari. .... anyway. getting back to cargo expanders?
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:35:00 - [13] is it just me or is a Caldari complaining about hauling, when they clearly have the highest cargo Freightor of all races? -- Billion Isk Mission
T'sar Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:35:00 - [14] Caldari needs a Tier 3 or Tier 4 Industrial.
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:35:00 - [15] Originally by: Koramaur You're complaining that someone with at the very least 20 more days of training can haul more than you? Are you surprised? The man has a point. But even so, I would still expect to be almost in the ballpark if I bought a Caldari Transport. The only reason for the size of this disparity seems to be the lack of stacking penalty on cargo expanders?
Raekone	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:39:00 - [16] Originally by: Lord WarATron is it just me or is a Caldari complaining about hauling, when they clearly have the highest cargo Freightor of all races? You can't pick up cans in space with a freighter and so it's not really suited for mining ops is it :p
Raekone	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:41:00 - [17] Originally by: Battlecheese Originally by: Koramaur You're complaining that someone with at the very least 20 more days of training can haul more than you? Are you surprised? The man has a point. But even so, I would still expect to be almost in the ballpark if I bought a Caldari Transport. The only reason for the size of this disparity seems to be the lack of stacking penalty on cargo expanders? That isn't the point at all since you don't have a choice to train for a lvl 5 hauler as caldari. If you could, and you were still complaining, then that would be the point. Badger Mk II's are in fact very nice haulers in that they can shield tank very well, if a bit lacking on the actual cargo space. It's diversity mate.
Darqion Zenix	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:48:00 - [18] 2 minutes of research even when i just started showed me that ships... believe it or not.. arent all the same it took me about 10 minutes to realise the gallante had the biggest industrial.. and guess what, training the frigate skill for that race took me.. a day ? lol seriously... if every ship would atleast be in the park.. it would get very crowded
Ling Xiao	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:54:00 - [19] The Bustard has 5 low slots, and can get a very competitive amount of space. Caldari also have the largest capacity Freighter, giving yet another advantage to those that went with Caldari Industrial V. __________ If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing?
Paigan Amarr Katsu Corporation Pure.	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:56:00 - [20] Originally by: Battlecheese Please point out any other class of ships where a factor of 2 in capability is tolerated? I don't mind "better". I'm not sure that "not even in the same ballpark" is even in fitting with the RP aspect. Raven is twice as good (at least) than domi/mega/hyp for PvE. Rokh is twice as good a sniper than mega/hyp are. Crow/Raptor are twice as good as Crusader/Malediction are. Oh and Archon is twice as big as chimera :D If not 3 or 4 times. Even though, i see yoru point. Iteron V is a little Uber due to the unreasonable slot system. But there are around 34564563412 other balance issues before such a minor thing gets relevant -- This game is still in beta stage
Grytok	Posted - 2007.03.27 12:02:00 - [21] If you want to level the playground, then please ask for a Badger MK III, instead of ruining the day of many dedicated Iteron V-Pilots. I've invested 200 Mil ISK into my Iteron V (5x Cargo Expander II, 3x Cargohold Optimization I) to be able hauling during a Mining OP. So you wanna give me my money back? Furthermore, like the other guy allready said. It takes 20+ days, to train up Gallente Industrial to LvL 5. And only the Iteron V outclasses all other Industrial Ships. With Industrial Skill @ LvL 4 (some only need LvL 1-3 !!!) any of the following Ships outclasses the Iteron IV for example. Hoarder, Mammoth, Bestower, Sigil, Badger MK II > Iteron IV. So I don't see your point, really. Why nerf the Cargo Expanders? .
Jacob Holland Gallente FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.27 12:26:00 - [22] Iteron IV capacity with minimal skills = Badger II Capacity with minimal skills. The Iteron IV has less potential capacity than the Badger II due to the additional level of required skill. Therefore perhaps, before nerfing Cargo Expanders and Iteron Vs (Which after all require a Rank 4, Level 5 skill to fly) we should increase the skill requirements for the Badger II or nerf it's cargo capacity down to the Iteron III's level? -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.27 12:31:00 - [23] Although I dont fly iterons, I would say that the Iteron V + transport ships are the only haulers that reqire a Racial industal lvl5. At the moment, the biggist Hauler is a Iteron V assuming one uses all t2 Expanders and Rigs. With that said, a lot of people are moving to Impel, which can haul almost as much as a Iteron V, but has a huge amount of armour and Hac like resists, as well as be able to fit in a MWD comfortably. The thing to remember is that iteron V pilots pretty much have the skills to fly a Transport ship, whereas a badger II pilot may not be anyware near. It would not seem fair to nerf the Iteron V for that reason, however it may make sence to add in extra tiers of all haulers for other races. But again, what do I care, since I fit scramblers and a tank on my impel hoping someone falls for the bait. -- Billion Isk Mission
Knoppaz Rens Nursing Home	Posted - 2007.03.27 12:48:00 - [24] Let me get this straight.. ..you're mad about the Iteron V being able to haul more than your Badger II and therefore ask for a stacking penalty on cargo expanders? 1. Ever thought about gimping your own Badger II with that solution? 2. Everthought of asking for a Badger III? shakes head in disbelief
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.03.27 13:14:00 - [25] Originally by: Knoppaz Everthought of asking for a Badger III? Now that's an ideea... _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
esquimo leviticus Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.03.27 13:32:00 - [26] Originally by: Raekone I'll bet you know already what I'm going to say here, but here goes anyway. Ravens doing missions. Want to do lvl 4's properly you simply HAVE to train ravens, you have NO choice there is NO alternative. Eos pawns l4's and the Domi does alright, horses and courses, there is an alternative, although the raven is a great noob-training wheels ship :p. There's nothing to stop you from training Gallente Industrial if you want an uber hauler, just as those gallente's that want a spam mobile can train for Raven.
Draahkness	Posted - 2007.03.27 13:53:00 - [27] Itty V needs gallante industrial 5. Impel needs amarr industral 5 + Transport 1 (takes about 25 minutes). Impel + 7 cargo expander II = 27900 Impel with said expanders + 9 GSC = 35900 Havent invested in rigs yet but I might. Seems you get what you train for bud. Someone who isnt as tired as me can probably run bustard though QF and end up with something similar. So what you gain in going gallante over the other races is the 20 odd mil in ship cost. But if you dont like hauling without scouts, going afk on gates and/or in other manners jump up and down in front of the grim reaper it should last as long as the server does. My impel is like 8 months old now.
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved	Posted - 2007.03.27 13:53:00 - [28] Originally by: Battlecheese Please point out any other class of ships where a factor of 2 in capability is tolerated? How about a factor of infinity? Gallente have no dedicated EW Battleship, while you Caldari have one with 8 med slots and bonuses. That's just a random of the top of the head example of great differences in various classes. Like someone said. If everything was same/similar what would be the point of different races? == Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
Brother Funkyshades	Posted - 2007.03.27 14:12:00 - [29] Originally by: Battlecheese I'm sorry, you're Gallente softness of intellect is showing through here. If you look a few lines further down in this very forum, you will see threads about lvl4 configurations. The Dominix in this case. (note: there is also a raven thread, but as you mentioned, there are many of those). I dispute your suggestion that Caldari is the only race for mission-running. yo battlecheese, whats your problem? the only one showing a soft mind is... well, you. ofc. you can do mishes in a domi. thats the same with the badger. you can haul as good in a badger as a runner can do missions in a domi. in both cases another ship is better for the job. plus there is another thing: sure your badger can haul less. but it can fit a great passive tank, which is of great use in several circumstances, even with warp to zero. in fact your attitude is disgusting and your arguments are flawed (at best) and i really wonder why i wasted 2 minutes in trying to help you understand.
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 14:18:00 - [30] Originally by: hydraSlav How about a factor of infinity? mumble divide by 0 is undefined, not infinity But this is all getting off the topic a bit. Why aren't cargo expanders stacking-nerfed? and is anyone attempting to defend the velocity handicap as effective?
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 14:26:00 - [31] Edited by: Battlecheese on 27/03/2007 14:44:52 Edited by: Battlecheese on 27/03/2007 14:27:47 Originally by: Brother Funkyshades yo battlecheese, whats your problem? the only one showing a soft mind is... well, you. steady on old chap. I'm not entirely sure you justify this point of view. Originally by: Brother Funkyshades plus there is another thing: sure your badger can haul less. but it can fit a great passive tank, which is of great use in several circumstances, even with warp to zero. Yes, I like my badger. But it is half the size. And if I train up for transports, I will still be 10000m3 behind. Originally by: Brother Funkyshades in fact your attitude is disgusting and your arguments are flawed (at best) and i really wonder why i wasted 2 minutes in trying to help you understand. Everyone is getting dreadfully excited about this, but it is still not clear to me why only things people complain about get stacking penalties. Why isn't there a uniform system? Edit: excised sweeping generalisation
Sir Howard Gallente SAS. The Foundation.	Posted - 2007.03.27 14:45:00 - [32] Originally by: Battlecheese As a good Caldari, it pains me to see other races CoughGallenteCough swanning around in their ridiculously large IteronVs, leaving our noble BadgerIIs looking woefully sub-par. The reason for this is, obviously, the currently un-stacking-nerfed behavior of Cargo Expanders. Clearly the more vitriolic members of our community feel less strongly about hauling than they do about shooting, but it still seems very inconsistent to leave cargo-expanders out of the stacking-nerfage. Another issue which might as well be discussed at the same time is the current penalty. With the pathetic cave-in which was Warp-to-0, straight-line speed has become almost completely irrelevant. It certainly does not do anything to discourage people from fitting as many expanders as they can. heh..uhoh Caldari arent the best at something..better nerf it. Your logic is flawed, you want to nerf expanders just so your Badger will be closer to hauling as a Itty 5. Thats rediculous...thats like saying 'well my Megathron just cant hold as many drones as a domi...its not fair we better put a nerf on the ammount of drones a ship can hold' "This is a bad idea wrapped in a horrible plan and shipped in a retarded box"
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 14:51:00 - [33] Originally by: Sir Howard heh..uhoh Caldari arent the best at something..better nerf it. Your logic is flawed, you want to nerf expanders just so your Badger will be closer to hauling as a Itty 5. Thats rediculous...thats like saying 'well my Megathron just cant hold as many drones as a domi...its not fair we better put a nerf on the ammount of drones a ship can hold' Yes, and my Moa doesn't shoot missiles as well as my caracal.
Sir Howard Gallente SAS. The Foundation.	Posted - 2007.03.27 15:06:00 - [34] Yes roll your eyes.. The itty 5 is better than your badger II so you want to nerf the haulers defining mod so as to lessen the better ship of the two. Thats horrible logic, I'd rather see someone asking for another lowslot. And seriously, like someone else said earlier train for an itty 5 over a badger II its not like you have a ton of skill time invested into industrial prereqs. "This is a bad idea wrapped in a horrible plan and shipped in a retarded box"
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 15:19:00 - [35] Ok. Lets be clear on this. I am not advocating that the IteronV be nerfed. I am asking why cargo expanders are not stacking-penalised. It has been regularly shown in the past that the ability to stack large numbers of a particular module (or sort of module) on a ship such that it becomes a solopwnmachine of some sort is regarded as overpowered. For notes: search for gankageddon, and nano-*
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.27 15:21:00 - [36] Originally by: Battlecheese But this is all getting off the topic a bit. Why aren't cargo expanders stacking-nerfed? and is anyone attempting to defend the velocity handicap as effective? Why should expanders be stacking nerfed? Seriously. Just because some combat modules are stacking nerfed is not an argument on why expanders should be. And really the Caldari are nowhere near as nerfed hauler wise versus Gallente. The Badger-II is fine. The Gallente lineup is rather sucky until you get the Mk-V. Now, it takes Industrial-5 for a Mk-V. If you train Caldari to Industrial-5 you are about an hour from training a Transport ship and there ya go...Caldari ships that can haul on par with Gallente. And only Caldari can do the venerable Battle Badger!
Sir Howard Gallente SAS. The Foundation.	Posted - 2007.03.27 15:36:00 - [37] Ok fine then I'm done arguing... Lets nerf the Itty 5 cause its the best hauler....then we can nerf the raven because I just cant seem to do missions as fast in my domi. "This is a bad idea wrapped in a horrible plan and shipped in a retarded box"
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 15:43:00 - [38] Originally by: Humpalot Why should expanders be stacking nerfed? Seriously. Just because some combat modules are stacking nerfed is not an argument on why expanders should be. I don't think I would describe nanofibres as combat modules. At what point does obsessive fitting of one module-type become overpowered?
Brother Funkyshades	Posted - 2007.03.27 15:57:00 - [39] Originally by: Battlecheese steady on old chap. I'm not entirely sure you justify this point of view. doesnt matter, you are proving in nearly every post, we dont have to rely on your superior logic. but tbh to you, most of us dont know why expanders arent stacking nerfed. same goes for cap rechargers, cap batteries, shield extenders, shield rechargers, pdus, rcus, sprs and whatnot. how about you start a clueless thread on each and everyone of those things? your statement the speed penalty is neglectable since wtz is only one of the arguments you used to prove your superior thinking power, btw. and the only reason im not very friendly to you, is simply because you are rude to people that completely pwnt your reasoning and you still act like a *****
Dynast	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:09:00 - [40] Originally by: Battlecheese Originally by: Raekone Been doing lvl 4's for the past 3 years. I'm walking away from this now as you've stopped reasoning and resorted to sulking :p Whatever. I think you're just bitter because you betrayed your race because you thought you couldn't do missions unless you flew Caldari. .... anyway. getting back to cargo expanders? There's no compelling reason to stack nerf cargo expanders. Especially not to correct some perceived Caldari disadvantage in hauling, given that Caldari have the highest volume Freighter. And, if you're trying to deny that Caldari ships are by far the best mission runners, both in ISK/hour and ease of missioning, you're full of crap. Missioning in a Caracal/Drake/Raven (which I do; I fly Gallente for PvP) is pathetically easy compared to even the best non-caldari options. The races aren't meant to be exactly the same, get over it.
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:10:00 - [41] Originally by: Brother Funkyshades and the only reason im not very friendly to you, is simply because you are rude to people that completely pwnt your reasoning and you still act like a ***** meh. Transparent Gallente sympathiser. I shall alert the amarr authorities.
Kolwrath	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:16:00 - [42] Originally by: Raekone I'll bet you know already what I'm going to say here, but here goes anyway. Ravens doing missions. Want to do lvl 4's properly you simply HAVE to train ravens, you have NO choice there is NO alternative. You can't have all ships doing the same thing! Or we couldn't go "ooh but you know which race has really good alpha strike ships? The minmatar!" etc Yes is offtopic but what you said in the first paragraph is utter BS. I run a domi in Lvl4s, as do alot of people. Some of my corpies run Abbadons or Maelstoms. Back on topic, you are right. Some races are better for some things than others. Yeah Iteron Vs are the defacto hauling kings of T1, but T2 is ruled by the Amarr Impel. Also I might add that I see far more Mammoths flying around than ANY other indy in my region. Sorry but you are wrong in that the Iteron is the only way to go for hauling. Just as the Raven is the only way to go for Missioning.
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:21:00 - [43] Originally by: Battlecheese Originally by: Brother Funkyshades and the only reason im not very friendly to you, is simply because you are rude to people that completely pwnt your reasoning and you still act like a ***** meh. Transparent Gallente sympathiser. I shall alert the amarr authorities. You know if you stack nerf the cargo then you'll be nerfing yourself for one, and then also a reduction in the cargo size of the bager mark II to be inline with the iteron mark III. Now with this add on the iteron now has much less cargo hold and then so does the bager, and every other hauler. Iteron now with everyone nerfed will be the best still but by a larger gap then before because of it's large base cargo.
R'adeh Gallente Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:24:00 - [44] Yay, let's make all races exactly the same \o/ o// \\o o> Think about it, it's as if you were saying "my thorax doesn't have missiles, haxomfg!!". _______________________________________________ My views are my own and I don't represent my corp.
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:29:00 - [45] Originally by: Vincent Almasy You know if you stack nerf the cargo then you'll be nerfing yourself for one, and then also a reduction in the cargo size of the bager mark II to be inline with the iteron mark III. Now with this add on the iteron now has much less cargo hold and then so does the bager, and every other hauler. Iteron now with everyone nerfed will be the best still but by a larger gap then before because of it's large base cargo. Base Sizes: BadgerII 5250 IteronV 6000 The difference would only be about 20%, rather less than 100%. (because skills, stacking-penalised cargo expanders would not change this ratio)
Dark Flare Caldari Corpus PCG	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:34:00 - [46] Edited by: Dark Flare on 27/03/2007 16:31:20 If you've got that much of an issue with it, train for Gallente industrials. Hardly takes long. Each race is better at different things. Seems like you've just found Gallente's best advantage! Dark Flare - Corpus PCG
Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa The Perfect Harvesting Experience	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:36:00 - [47] Because hauling would become really tedious if every expander after the 3rd or 4th would become worthless and all of them would work with deminishing returns. And we're still talking belt-station hauls here... any other type has become less relevant with the introduction of freighters.... at least as long as we are discussing transported volume here. ----------------------------------------------- Originally by: Paper Rock's fine, nerf Scissors
heheheh Singularity.	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:36:00 - [48] Originally by: Battlecheese Originally by: Brother Funkyshades and the only reason im not very friendly to you, is simply because you are rude to people that completely pwnt your reasoning and you still act like a ***** meh. Transparent Gallente sympathiser. I shall alert the amarr authorities. If in doubt, roleplay your way out.
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:38:00 - [49] Originally by: Battlecheese Originally by: Vincent Almasy You know if you stack nerf the cargo then you'll be nerfing yourself for one, and then also a reduction in the cargo size of the bager mark II to be inline with the iteron mark III. Now with this add on the iteron now has much less cargo hold and then so does the bager, and every other hauler. Iteron now with everyone nerfed will be the best still but by a larger gap then before because of it's large base cargo. Base Sizes: BadgerII 5250 IteronV 6000 The difference would only be about 20%, rather less than 100%. (because skills, stacking-penalised cargo expanders would not change this ratio) Ok then, what do the other races then get for a caldari short fall where they always are ment to have the least lows but the most mids?
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:41:00 - [50] Originally by: Vincent Almasy Ok then, what do the other races then get for a caldari short fall where they always are ment to have the least lows but the most mids? They get to fit a tank if they want to pvp? (minmatar have this problem a bit too).
Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa The Perfect Harvesting Experience	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:41:00 - [51] Indeed, Badger Mk II is king of Industrial E-War. ----------------------------------------------- Originally by: Paper Rock's fine, nerf Scissors
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:44:00 - [52] Originally by: Battlecheese Originally by: Vincent Almasy Ok then, what do the other races then get for a caldari short fall where they always are ment to have the least lows but the most mids? They get to fit a tank if they want to pvp? (minmatar have this problem a bit too). PvP in a industrial ship... right, now be nice to the men in the white coats when they come to your house. They are your friends.
Natalja Tomaszewski State War Academy	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:51:00 - [53] From industrial 3 to 5 its 19 additional days. I have no problems with the IteronIV being the best Indy.
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:52:00 - [54] Originally by: Vincent Almasy Originally by: Battlecheese Originally by: Vincent Almasy Ok then, what do the other races then get for a caldari short fall where they always are ment to have the least lows but the most mids? They get to fit a tank if they want to pvp? (minmatar have this problem a bit too). PvP in a industrial ship... right, now be nice to the men in the white coats when they come to your house. They are your friends. Oh, industrials. I'm not sure why I answered that anyway, I never discussed changing the slot layout.
Abye SniggWaffe Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.03.27 17:09:00 - [55] A Badger Mark 3 might be the easiest solution. On a sidenote, Gallente Transport ships sell easily while other races transport ships are sitting on the shelves, that is because most people that want to go for major hauling get Gallente Industrial 5. Freighters aren't that problematic because they are tech1 but the ratio between Obelisks and the other freighters is still impressive. ___ Inappropriate signature. Please do not use this signature. Email us for more information -Eldo ([email protected])
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.27 17:12:00 - [56] Originally by: Battlecheese Originally by: Humpalot Why should expanders be stacking nerfed? Seriously. Just because some combat modules are stacking nerfed is not an argument on why expanders should be. I don't think I would describe nanofibres as combat modules. At what point does obsessive fitting of one module-type become overpowered? I think from the get go of design in EVE it was expected that people would be likely to fit all expanders in low on a hauler. That's all it does. I think with nanoes there was likely some assumption that fitting all nanoes in would mess up your ship more than it helped so as not to be a very attractive choice. Turned out there were wrong and they fixed that. But people have been putting all expanders in they can since forever and honestly this is the first I have ever heard of someone wanting them stacking nerfed.
JamnOne	Posted - 2007.03.27 17:41:00 - [57] Edited by: JamnOne on 27/03/2007 17:39:10 Originally by: Raekone This is simply just another difference between races... gallentean haulers are built to do their job properly, while caldari ones seem a bit crap like you say. Without basic differences like these we'd be playing a rather boring game really. I am not sure about the game being boring but I must agree in that each race should be a little bit different.
Halapino CAPITAL TRUST FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.27 17:43:00 - [58] Isn't the fact that the Gallente version has more space based on race? The Caldari uses mid slots for it's mods, sheilds. And the Gallente use low slots for it's mods, armor. The only real fair solution from an all-race point of view would be to either stack nerf the expanders or limit the ammount of expanders you can fit, so even if you have 6 low slots you can only fit 3. The race specific fix would be to modify all races to have the same amount of mid/low slots... but then a differant group of people would complain about inequality. So... pick your poison?
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:00:00 - [59] If you just need to haul a few goods you train amarr industrial to I. If you think you might go for freighter in the future but want to haul decent amounts in the meanwhile without too much time invested, you train Caldari to III or Minmatar to IV. If you want to haul the max in an industrial, then you train Gallente to V. Why would you want to take away this choice and make them all equal? Eve is about choices from start till the end of the game.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:43:00 - [60] Cargo expanders are hardly the only "overused" module that is not stacking-nerfed. I'd point the finger at all modules and rigs that affect shield/capacitor recharge time. No stacking nerfs there either. IF they'd be stacking-nerfed, passive shield tanking would be badly nerfed (and caldari would be the best possible passive shield tankers by far, not almost on par with gallente and some minmatar), and most non-capbooster-driven active tank setups (armor or shield, doesn't really matter) would see a severely limited lifespan due to pathetic capacitor recharge rate. Stack-nerfing cargo size percent bonus would basically mean everything past the 4th expander is practically worthless, and it would also mean if you have 3 cargo expander rigs fited, they become next to useless after you add a 3rd expander (rigged or unrigged, about the same end results)... you know, kind of like overdrives and speed rigs now, but even worse. So basically, all you'd do is to make most industrials carry proportional loads to their base cargo, and have a lot of unused (or seldom used) slots. ___ By the way, can I ask WHAT the heck do you even need a HUGE carry capacity for ? There's really little incentive to not pick up a freighter instead, skill-wise you're almost there after you have L5 industrial. Sure, it's a lot more ISK, but also a whole lot of cargo. Forget Badger, get a Charon, they're really cheap too (compared to Obelisks, that is). Also, if you could be arsed to train L5 industrial (personally, I couldn't, not yet anyway), might as well spend an extra 20-some mil on the skillbook and train up L1 transports. Most deep-space transports have a carry capacity that comes (somewhat) close to the one of the Iteron V anyway. Not quite there, but close enough. Besides, the extra tanking ability never hurts... I drool at the idea of finishing training for a Bustard (tank setup of over 16k shield recharge in under 300 seconds, with lowest resist 60% EXP). ___ The only GOOD idea (about a gameplay change) over here ? To create a new Tech-1 industrial ship (hey, why only for Caldari ? why not Amarr and Minmatar too?) that needs L5 racial industrial to fly. Balance out potential carry capacity (base cargo, amount of lowslots) so that they're relatively close to eachother in maximum carried load, and consistent with the racial "philosophy". Everything else is caca-del-torro. _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. C0VEN	Posted - 2007.03.27 19:39:00 - [61] We need more cargo room, not less. Industrials are already becoming useless thanks to freighters and carriers and dreads. this is one mod that does not need stacking nerf. Originally by: Snuggly It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
Sutiru Haruto Aurora Medical Systems	Posted - 2007.03.27 21:53:00 - [62] Just because people fit a lot of expanders doesn't mean it's "overpowered". Overpowered as the whiners describe it is the ability to kill easily while being extremely difficult to kill. Examples, ECM, nano, and arguably NOS (tho I'm on the fence with most of these personally.) Expanders on the other hand give no PVP advantage. They give no "power" and so by definition can't be overpowered. Additionally, when people say "Just train the raven!" for L4 missions, they mean train for months upon months to have all the skills required to fly one well. When people say "Just train the Iteron V!" there's really only one skill to train. It's not really an apples to apples comparison. If you think the IttyV is "overpowered" or unbalanced, it's not very much effort to train one yourself. Then you will be better than all other haulers...an "uber-hauler" if you will. You will pwnz0r all the other haulers with your 1337 hauling ski11z!!1!eleventy-one! If I didn't know better, I'd say there's more than a little bit of sarcasm in the OP. But as he's since proceeded to make an arse of himself, I'm gonna conclude that he's just a bit soft in the noggin.
Shayla Sh'inlux The Black Rabbits Fatal Persuasion	Posted - 2007.03.27 22:18:00 - [63] Just pointing out that the Gallentean industrials that are not the mark V are all completely crap. A Mark IV gets outperformed by a Hoarder. The price of having a huge tier 5 hauler is having crap tier 1-4 haulers (well the mark III is ok, but still not a badger II). As pointed out Caldari have the biggest freighter. Amarr have the biggest (or at least used to have) Transport, Gallente has the biggest regular hauler. Minmatar have the Mammoth which is the best bang-for-training-time buck you're gonna get hauler-wise. It's called diversity and I don't see the problem. Apparently the OP is the only one who does tho, so don't expect a change :-) Discussing moderation is a no-no- Tirg
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.03.27 22:35:00 - [64] Best easy to train for hauler is the mammoth. It can move most stuff of all lvl 4 haulers. Having lvl 5 hauler means you need to invest a lot into them. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Alekzander Caldari Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.03.28 00:09:00 - [65] Let me tell you something about haulers. Caldari haulers are THE most survivable haulers I have flown in the past three years, I trained caldari industrial to five and own a bustard and crane. My bustard has survived nine gank attempts, with no WCS fitted. It tanks like ebil h4x polaris ships (ok not really), my crane is so speedy and has plenty of mids to do speed/tanking with. As to the tech 1 versions, the b1/b2 may not hold much but if you fill those mids with extenders they will hitpoint tank long enough for concord to show up. They are also quite speedy even when expanders are fitted. Now you may be thinking I'm biased, but I have 2 alts, one with minmatar transports and one with gallente transports. Out of all the haulers I've flown over the time, I would hands down take my crane and bustard over all of them. They are damn good haulers, even though the gallente ones can hold rediculous amounts of cargo, I'd rather do more runs in the ships that I know would take the beating and still get out. Granted I have been very lucky but I swear by caldari's uber shiny Industrials.
Ethaet	Posted - 2007.05.25 08:37:00 - [66] Iteron 5 can have a great shield tank, it has 5 midslots, plus 5 lows for armour or cargo expanders. The iteron 1-4 suck though (exception of the iteron 3) so its the price you pay.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.05.25 09:29:00 - [67] Originally by: Akita T By the way, can I ask WHAT the heck do you even need a HUGE carry capacity for ? Umm, for the ore? Isn't that obvious?
Steryana	Posted - 2007.05.25 10:28:00 - [68] Edited by: Steryana on 25/05/2007 10:27:32 Edited by: Steryana on 25/05/2007 10:27:06 Edited by: Steryana on 25/05/2007 10:26:48 The man is calling for a stacking nerf to expanders to make ALL our lives tougher?!?! I say we each war dec him. Stacking nerfs mean less percentages over all, for everyone. I'm not sure which school allowed you in their doors, but they mustn't have done much for you, Battlecheese, 'cause you're becoming a road-block here. I love my Raven, so I trained Caldari BS up to level 5. I like moving as much as possible, so I trained Gallente Industrials up to level 5. Seeing as how I did both, quite easily, without having to change my race, I don't see the argument. If you LIKE Cadari soooooo much, stick to the confines of the race. If you don't, change or adjust accordingly. I don't like the looks of some Caldari ships - nor some of the drone bays; shall I post to make those the same, too? I'm starting to believe that "Battlecheese" = "Carebear Whine and Cheese." Expect a war dec.
Zelakil	Posted - 2007.05.25 14:30:00 - [69] My friend I HAVE THE SOLUTION! from this time forward: Frigate = 10x10x10 meter black cube. Cruiser = 50x50x50 meter black cube. Battleship = 100x100x100 meter black cube. All other ship classes inherit from parent class, tech 2 ships come in gold, covert ops are completely invisible. All faction ships come in the shape of the starship Enterprise NCC-1701D. Rails = beam lasers = artillery. Autocannons = pulse lasers = blasters. Missiles have been changed to photon torpedos. Every ship now has identical statistics based on the natural log according to size. In addition, you now have a targeting reticle and the ability to point your "phaser" out the window and fire. The letters AWSD&Z control ship's movement. Races have been replaced by the choice of: Sulu Scottie Spock Checkov Bones James T. Kirk not available due to his unforunate level of superiority and the resulting imbalance in player characters. Web site and forum changes: Implementation of new technology identifying useless and otherwise sub-sapien conversation pieces in order to filter forum posts to weed out the inevitable, but expected... Almost forgot: You will be rewarded 100Million isk for every hour spent on the game and your cargo hold will equal 1/10th of your ship's volume.
Sc0rpion Minmatar MetaForge Ekliptika	Posted - 2007.05.25 14:53:00 - [70] Show of hands...how many people have ever flown or fought against a battle Badger? How about a battle Iteron? 'nuff said. The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously. -Friedrich Nietzsche Killmails are for pooftas.
n'yleth	Posted - 2007.05.25 15:01:00 - [71] Originally by: Battlecheese Originally by: hydraSlav How about a factor of infinity? mumble divide by 0 is undefined, not infinity But this is all getting off the topic a bit. Why aren't cargo expanders stacking-nerfed? and is anyone attempting to defend the velocity handicap as effective? Hi Cheese! Cargo expanders aren't stacking nerfed because most of us can't afford a freak'in freighter. The ability to solo-haul while still having the ability to solo-mine is quite useful. It's an impossibly time-oriented skill, which nets you an equaly impossibly superior ship. Continuing on, caldari have the worst indusrtial, but the best frieghter. So the Iterven 5 is more for people looking for short-term/low volume mining, while Caldari industrial is for serious haulers. The underlying issue, however, about stacking nerf, I completely disagree with. We stacking nerfed combat modules so people wouldn't just get 5-8 of one mod, and completely devestate at that type of combat (ruin'in diversity, a key concept in eve-cology). Industrials are ONLY good for hauling. I'm training Iterven for 16 days. Don't take away my l33t mining op. Please don't make me hire a hauler. Those guys all smell funny.

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