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Waiting for the Cargo Expander blancing

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Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 10:49:00 - [1] As a good Caldari, it pains me to see other races CoughGallenteCough swanning around in their ridiculously large IteronVs, leaving our noble BadgerIIs looking woefully sub-par. The reason for this is, obviously, the currently un-stacking-nerfed behavior of Cargo Expanders. Clearly the more vitriolic members of our community feel less strongly about hauling than they do about shooting, but it still seems very inconsistent to leave cargo-expanders out of the stacking-nerfage. Another issue which might as well be discussed at the same time is the current penalty. With the pathetic cave-in which was Warp-to-0, straight-line speed has become almost completely irrelevant. It certainly does not do anything to discourage people from fitting as many expanders as they can.
Raekone	Posted - 2007.03.27 10:59:00 - [2] This is simply just another difference between races... gallentean haulers are built to do their job properly, while caldari ones seem a bit crap like you say. Without basic differences like these we'd be playing a rather boring game really.
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:02:00 - [3] Please point out any other class of ships where a factor of 2 in capability is tolerated? I don't mind "better". I'm not sure that "not even in the same ballpark" is even in fitting with the RP aspect.
Raekone	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:06:00 - [4] I'll bet you know already what I'm going to say here, but here goes anyway. Ravens doing missions. Want to do lvl 4's properly you simply HAVE to train ravens, you have NO choice there is NO alternative. You can't have all ships doing the same thing! Or we couldn't go "ooh but you know which race has really good alpha strike ships? The minmatar!" etc
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:07:00 - [5] Originally by: Battlecheese other races ..large IteronVs Say, why are you interested about the balance between races? Does it have actual effect on gameplay outside the summit forum? IMHO it is enough to balance between heavily SP invested skill trees (for example BS class gunships should be equally usable to BS class missileships). Hauling is pretty separated tree; when you decide to start training for those things it doesn't really matter much what ships you've flown before. So if you're pure non-hauling Caldari, just train for Iteron V (at cost of a few extra days). Now if we accepted that hauling is intended sub-role for capital ships, we might be run into these balancing issues.. -Lasse
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:13:00 - [6] I'm sorry, you're Gallente softness of intellect is showing through here. If you look a few lines further down in this very forum, you will see threads about lvl4 configurations. The Dominix in this case. (note: there is also a raven thread, but as you mentioned, there are many of those). I dispute your suggestion that Caldari is the only race for mission-running.
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:16:00 - [7] Edited by: Battlecheese on 27/03/2007 11:14:07 Originally by: Heikki Say, why are you interested about the balance between races? Does it have actual effect on gameplay outside the summit forum? Pls try to organise a multi-barge mining op, then get back to me :) Edit: for best effect you need to be hauling at least one system away.
Raekone	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:20:00 - [8] Originally by: Battlecheese I'm sorry, you're Gallente softness of intellect is showing through here. If you look a few lines further down in this very forum, you will see threads about lvl4 configurations. The Dominix in this case. (note: there is also a raven thread, but as you mentioned, there are many of those). I dispute your suggestion that Caldari is the only race for mission-running. Indeed caldari aren't the only race for mission running - just like iterons aren't the only haulers. But in both cases they're the only choice if you want to get something done :)
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:23:00 - [9] Originally by: Raekone Indeed caldari aren't the only race for mission running - just like iterons aren't the only haulers. But in both cases they're the only choice if you want to get something done :) Methinks you should trust the forums less, and go try some missions.
Raekone	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:25:00 - [10] Originally by: Battlecheese Originally by: Raekone Indeed caldari aren't the only race for mission running - just like iterons aren't the only haulers. But in both cases they're the only choice if you want to get something done :) Methinks you should trust the forums less, and go try some missions. Been doing lvl 4's for the past 3 years. I'm walking away from this now as you've stopped reasoning and resorted to sulking :p
Koramaur	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:32:00 - [11] Badger Mk 2 pre-req: Caldari Industrial III Iteron V pre-req: Gallente Industrial V You're complaining that someone with at the very least 20 more days of training can haul more than you? Are you surprised?
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:32:00 - [12] Originally by: Raekone Been doing lvl 4's for the past 3 years. I'm walking away from this now as you've stopped reasoning and resorted to sulking :p Whatever. I think you're just bitter because you betrayed your race because you thought you couldn't do missions unless you flew Caldari. .... anyway. getting back to cargo expanders?
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:35:00 - [13] is it just me or is a Caldari complaining about hauling, when they clearly have the highest cargo Freightor of all races? -- Billion Isk Mission
T'sar Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:35:00 - [14] Caldari needs a Tier 3 or Tier 4 Industrial.
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:35:00 - [15] Originally by: Koramaur You're complaining that someone with at the very least 20 more days of training can haul more than you? Are you surprised? The man has a point. But even so, I would still expect to be almost in the ballpark if I bought a Caldari Transport. The only reason for the size of this disparity seems to be the lack of stacking penalty on cargo expanders?
Raekone	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:39:00 - [16] Originally by: Lord WarATron is it just me or is a Caldari complaining about hauling, when they clearly have the highest cargo Freightor of all races? You can't pick up cans in space with a freighter and so it's not really suited for mining ops is it :p
Raekone	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:41:00 - [17] Originally by: Battlecheese Originally by: Koramaur You're complaining that someone with at the very least 20 more days of training can haul more than you? Are you surprised? The man has a point. But even so, I would still expect to be almost in the ballpark if I bought a Caldari Transport. The only reason for the size of this disparity seems to be the lack of stacking penalty on cargo expanders? That isn't the point at all since you don't have a choice to train for a lvl 5 hauler as caldari. If you could, and you were still complaining, then that would be the point. Badger Mk II's are in fact very nice haulers in that they can shield tank very well, if a bit lacking on the actual cargo space. It's diversity mate.
Darqion Zenix	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:48:00 - [18] 2 minutes of research even when i just started showed me that ships... believe it or not.. arent all the same it took me about 10 minutes to realise the gallante had the biggest industrial.. and guess what, training the frigate skill for that race took me.. a day ? lol seriously... if every ship would atleast be in the park.. it would get very crowded
Ling Xiao	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:54:00 - [19] The Bustard has 5 low slots, and can get a very competitive amount of space. Caldari also have the largest capacity Freighter, giving yet another advantage to those that went with Caldari Industrial V. __________ If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing?
Paigan Amarr Katsu Corporation Pure.	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:56:00 - [20] Originally by: Battlecheese Please point out any other class of ships where a factor of 2 in capability is tolerated? I don't mind "better". I'm not sure that "not even in the same ballpark" is even in fitting with the RP aspect. Raven is twice as good (at least) than domi/mega/hyp for PvE. Rokh is twice as good a sniper than mega/hyp are. Crow/Raptor are twice as good as Crusader/Malediction are. Oh and Archon is twice as big as chimera :D If not 3 or 4 times. Even though, i see yoru point. Iteron V is a little Uber due to the unreasonable slot system. But there are around 34564563412 other balance issues before such a minor thing gets relevant -- This game is still in beta stage
Grytok	Posted - 2007.03.27 12:02:00 - [21] If you want to level the playground, then please ask for a Badger MK III, instead of ruining the day of many dedicated Iteron V-Pilots. I've invested 200 Mil ISK into my Iteron V (5x Cargo Expander II, 3x Cargohold Optimization I) to be able hauling during a Mining OP. So you wanna give me my money back? Furthermore, like the other guy allready said. It takes 20+ days, to train up Gallente Industrial to LvL 5. And only the Iteron V outclasses all other Industrial Ships. With Industrial Skill @ LvL 4 (some only need LvL 1-3 !!!) any of the following Ships outclasses the Iteron IV for example. Hoarder, Mammoth, Bestower, Sigil, Badger MK II > Iteron IV. So I don't see your point, really. Why nerf the Cargo Expanders? .
Jacob Holland Gallente FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.27 12:26:00 - [22] Iteron IV capacity with minimal skills = Badger II Capacity with minimal skills. The Iteron IV has less potential capacity than the Badger II due to the additional level of required skill. Therefore perhaps, before nerfing Cargo Expanders and Iteron Vs (Which after all require a Rank 4, Level 5 skill to fly) we should increase the skill requirements for the Badger II or nerf it's cargo capacity down to the Iteron III's level? -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.27 12:31:00 - [23] Although I dont fly iterons, I would say that the Iteron V + transport ships are the only haulers that reqire a Racial industal lvl5. At the moment, the biggist Hauler is a Iteron V assuming one uses all t2 Expanders and Rigs. With that said, a lot of people are moving to Impel, which can haul almost as much as a Iteron V, but has a huge amount of armour and Hac like resists, as well as be able to fit in a MWD comfortably. The thing to remember is that iteron V pilots pretty much have the skills to fly a Transport ship, whereas a badger II pilot may not be anyware near. It would not seem fair to nerf the Iteron V for that reason, however it may make sence to add in extra tiers of all haulers for other races. But again, what do I care, since I fit scramblers and a tank on my impel hoping someone falls for the bait. -- Billion Isk Mission
Knoppaz Rens Nursing Home	Posted - 2007.03.27 12:48:00 - [24] Let me get this straight.. ..you're mad about the Iteron V being able to haul more than your Badger II and therefore ask for a stacking penalty on cargo expanders? 1. Ever thought about gimping your own Badger II with that solution? 2. Everthought of asking for a Badger III? shakes head in disbelief
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.03.27 13:14:00 - [25] Originally by: Knoppaz Everthought of asking for a Badger III? Now that's an ideea... _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
esquimo leviticus Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.03.27 13:32:00 - [26] Originally by: Raekone I'll bet you know already what I'm going to say here, but here goes anyway. Ravens doing missions. Want to do lvl 4's properly you simply HAVE to train ravens, you have NO choice there is NO alternative. Eos pawns l4's and the Domi does alright, horses and courses, there is an alternative, although the raven is a great noob-training wheels ship :p. There's nothing to stop you from training Gallente Industrial if you want an uber hauler, just as those gallente's that want a spam mobile can train for Raven.
Draahkness	Posted - 2007.03.27 13:53:00 - [27] Itty V needs gallante industrial 5. Impel needs amarr industral 5 + Transport 1 (takes about 25 minutes). Impel + 7 cargo expander II = 27900 Impel with said expanders + 9 GSC = 35900 Havent invested in rigs yet but I might. Seems you get what you train for bud. Someone who isnt as tired as me can probably run bustard though QF and end up with something similar. So what you gain in going gallante over the other races is the 20 odd mil in ship cost. But if you dont like hauling without scouts, going afk on gates and/or in other manners jump up and down in front of the grim reaper it should last as long as the server does. My impel is like 8 months old now.
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved	Posted - 2007.03.27 13:53:00 - [28] Originally by: Battlecheese Please point out any other class of ships where a factor of 2 in capability is tolerated? How about a factor of infinity? Gallente have no dedicated EW Battleship, while you Caldari have one with 8 med slots and bonuses. That's just a random of the top of the head example of great differences in various classes. Like someone said. If everything was same/similar what would be the point of different races? == Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
Brother Funkyshades	Posted - 2007.03.27 14:12:00 - [29] Originally by: Battlecheese I'm sorry, you're Gallente softness of intellect is showing through here. If you look a few lines further down in this very forum, you will see threads about lvl4 configurations. The Dominix in this case. (note: there is also a raven thread, but as you mentioned, there are many of those). I dispute your suggestion that Caldari is the only race for mission-running. yo battlecheese, whats your problem? the only one showing a soft mind is... well, you. ofc. you can do mishes in a domi. thats the same with the badger. you can haul as good in a badger as a runner can do missions in a domi. in both cases another ship is better for the job. plus there is another thing: sure your badger can haul less. but it can fit a great passive tank, which is of great use in several circumstances, even with warp to zero. in fact your attitude is disgusting and your arguments are flawed (at best) and i really wonder why i wasted 2 minutes in trying to help you understand.
Battlecheese Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.27 14:18:00 - [30] Originally by: hydraSlav How about a factor of infinity? mumble divide by 0 is undefined, not infinity But this is all getting off the topic a bit. Why aren't cargo expanders stacking-nerfed? and is anyone attempting to defend the velocity handicap as effective?

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