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Rigs are too expensive. What can be done about it?

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murder one Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.03.31 09:42:00 - [91] I agree with the OP. If rig component requirements were simply halved, everything would be fine across the board. T2 rig requirements need to be reduced by about 80%, so that the components still retain their value on a per piece basis, but the rigs themseves drop in price from 350-450m to 50-80m. Because I said so...
heheheh Singularity. The Cartel.	Posted - 2007.03.31 16:59:00 - [92] Edited by: heheheh on 31/03/2007 16:57:59 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: heheheh Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: heheheh Edited by: heheheh on 30/03/2007 03:08:23 Edited by: heheheh on 30/03/2007 03:05:56 how are rigs too expensive when you can salvage the parts yourself while killing stuff wasting absolutly no time, therefor costing you NOTHING? saying that, a bit of an increase in drop rates wouldnt be a bad thing. Time is nothing? Can you be more clear with your question, If you salvage while doing other things, browse market, mine, shoot other rats, while salvaging as well, you are therefor spending no extra time whatsoever salvaging. It then makes you take no time and throws the crappy "time is money" argument out of the window, thats if you can spare the time to chuck it out. You cant salvage while doing other things. Shoot, i cant tractor in cans fast enough before i kill rats, you think i can tractor them in and salvage them while maintaining guns on top of the ship? Rubbish, you can do all the above as you salvage, If you kill the rats too quick go where there are more rats, if you cant shoot and salvage at the same time lol, learn to. Its not hard, multitask ftw, you should be good at it as you sound like a female, with all this moaning.
Zahril Minmatar	Posted - 2007.03.31 18:52:00 - [93] I think the biggest problem with rigs is that you use the same rigs for capitals and frigates. In my opinion the rig prices are fine for battleships, actually I think they are too cheap for capitals at the moment, they are way too expensive for anything smaller than battleship though. They should be divided in to 4 different categories like all other mods with frigate size rigs requiring 1/10 of current materials, cruiser size rigs requiring 1/3, battleship frigs what they require now and capital frigs requiring three times the components rigs currently require. Also some rigs definetly need boost or energy rigs need a nerf to balance the demand a bit.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.31 20:37:00 - [94] Originally by: heheheh Edited by: heheheh on 31/03/2007 16:57:59 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: heheheh Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: heheheh Edited by: heheheh on 30/03/2007 03:08:23 Edited by: heheheh on 30/03/2007 03:05:56 how are rigs too expensive when you can salvage the parts yourself while killing stuff wasting absolutly no time, therefor costing you NOTHING? saying that, a bit of an increase in drop rates wouldnt be a bad thing. Time is nothing? Can you be more clear with your question, If you salvage while doing other things, browse market, mine, shoot other rats, while salvaging as well, you are therefor spending no extra time whatsoever salvaging. It then makes you take no time and throws the crappy "time is money" argument out of the window, thats if you can spare the time to chuck it out. You cant salvage while doing other things. Shoot, i cant tractor in cans fast enough before i kill rats, you think i can tractor them in and salvage them while maintaining guns on top of the ship? Rubbish, you can do all the above as you salvage, If you kill the rats too quick go where there are more rats, if you cant shoot and salvage at the same time lol, learn to. Its not hard, multitask ftw, you should be good at it as you sound like a female, with all this moaning. I rat angels in an artillery geddon. It cannot be done. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Sadist Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.03.31 20:40:00 - [95] Originally by: Blind Man i think T2 rig prices should be at about what t1 rig prices are at right now, and make t1 rigs cost <1m, so definitely agreed The stupidest remark in a century. Rigs are cheap enough as it is, but they aren't mean to be as disposable as ammo. òòòòòòòòòòòò VIP member of the [23] Quote: - Numbers alone do not win a battle - No, but I bet they help.
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.03.31 21:19:00 - [96] Originally by: murder one I agree with the OP. If rig component requirements were simply halved, everything would be fine across the board. T2 rig requirements need to be reduced by about 80%, so that the components still retain their value on a per piece basis, but the rigs themseves drop in price from 350-450m to 50-80m. That is not the reason for the prices.. It is high for the same reason Officer loot costs alot. They are rare right now, unlike officer gear they will drip in price as it becomes more of a market. This is still a t2 market zone, untill more producers are here prices will be high, if they only took one unit they would still be that high because rarly anyone can build one and alot of people want them.
AvatarADV	Posted - 2007.03.31 21:25:00 - [97] One of the reasons that -all- rigs are so expensive is that there's not much variety in the parts needed in order to construct rigs. If rigs didn't have a whole lot of parts overlap, you'd have much more market differentiation. The "best" rigs (CCC, cargohold, yadda yadda) would continue to be very high in price, because they're worth that kind of money to people who can afford to pay highly for rigs. Other rigs, which have less desirable effects, would quickly drop in price, to the point where you could afford to toss a couple of them on a cheap cruiser or even a pricey frigate. Sure, they're not great bonuses, but meh, it's cheap, right? However, ALL rigs use the various circuit parts. This means that there is a very strong incentive to use those parts on the most desirable rigs - after all, there's a limited supply of circuits, and people have a big incentive to build valuable CCCs rather than lousy weapon rigs. Because of the price of those parts (and the fact that you need rather a large quantity of them!), there is a "price floor" for rigs; rigs simply aren't manufactured for sale for a cost less than their circuit components. Ironically, because of this, the price for the non-circuit components for the "less desirable" rigs drops through the floor. There's a huge surplus of them, because they're being dropped in a "balanced" fashion but absolutely not being constructed as such. A mild rebalance might be in order. Juggling component types so that not every rig requires the use of components of CCCs and cargo rigs will drop the price of those rigs slightly, and allow other rig prices to float more or less independently instead of being pegged to the value of CCC and cargo rig components.
Agent Li Galactic Defence Consortium	Posted - 2007.03.31 22:42:00 - [98] Originally by: Badhands Edited by: Badhands on 29/03/2007 19:05:56 My understanding is that rigs are meant to be disposable... that we should have no problem installing a rig, playing with it for a few days, pulling it out and installing a new one. I can't remember which dev said this, so flame or whatever. It really doesn't matter. An obvious fix would be to double salvage reward, and halve the build reqs. Edited for spelling. You can't uninstall a rig. Also, I don't think they're too expensive.
Ryysa North Face Force Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.01 01:08:00 - [99] Originally by: Goumindong I rat angels in an artillery geddon. It cannot be done. Train Minmatar BS 4? :P N.F.F. Recruitment
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.01 01:37:00 - [100] Originally by: Ryysa Originally by: Goumindong I rat angels in an artillery geddon. It cannot be done. Train Minmatar BS 4? :P Heh :) The point was that i ought to have plenty of time inbetween battleship kills[in comparison to the better ratters] with which to drag in loot and salvage and i still cant get it done in most cases. I'd train minnie BS, but i am on a fairly rigorous specialziation schedule and heavy berserkers + arties was the fastest way to become rat capable in the areas I operate in. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.04.01 01:57:00 - [101] Increase salvage drop rate by an order of magnitude. Also, allow wrecks to last thre hours instead of two. At two hours a wreck shows up with a recon probe and the wreck is ownerless, meaning anyone can tractor it, take loot from it, salvage it with out aggro. Prices will fall in short order. Folks who don't want to bother with salvage can sell off their mission book marks. Salvagers can run around and make a profit while at the same time rig prices would drop. Would make a great niche for newer players in the 3 to 7 month old range. Would provide them with something other than mining missions or trade to do in high sec and low sec. PVPers, lvl 4 and up mission runners, would be their main customers. Enough salvage out there and even new players might stick a rig on thier first CGs and tier 3 frigs. Despite the OP's desire not to have a supply demand argument presented, it is that simple. Increase the drop rate and increase the accesibility to all the ignored wrecks from missions and rigs would fullfill their design goal and a "mini-profession" of salvaging would be viable on its own. -AS
Tom Shandy	Posted - 2007.04.01 02:40:00 - [102] Originally by: Vincent Almasy Originally by: heheheh Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: heheheh Edited by: heheheh on 30/03/2007 03:08:23 Edited by: heheheh on 30/03/2007 03:05:56 how are rigs too expensive when you can salvage the parts yourself while killing stuff wasting absolutly no time, therefor costing you NOTHING? saying that, a bit of an increase in drop rates wouldnt be a bad thing. Time is nothing? Can you be more clear with your question, If you salvage while doing other things, browse market, mine, shoot other rats, while salvaging as well, you are therefor spending no extra time whatsoever salvaging. It then makes you take no time and throws the crappy "time is money" argument out of the window, thats if you can spare the time to chuck it out. Time is money. I mine while i play a vid game and check on my barge evey so often, i'm playing a game not really mining then? So I could builds a Rohk for "free" as I was really playing a different's game? Time is money even if you multi-task My time is not money, yours is maybe, but each to his own. I have better things to measure mytime with intead of cash. I pity you.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.01 03:38:00 - [103] Originally by: Tom Shandy My time is not money, yours is maybe, but each to his own. I have better things to measure mytime with intead of cash. I pity you. Yea, it does suck that there are not infinite hours in a day and that some of have to work for a living. If you dont want to pity me i accept travelers checks, no credit though. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.04.01 04:30:00 - [104] Rigs are expensive? Good, Rigs aren't meant to be a standard, easy to come by addition to ships. If you have to pay extra for them, big deal, either pay, or don't. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Basics	Posted - 2007.04.01 04:32:00 - [105] i'm glad rigs are high. i wish t2 ships didn't go down. cus than not everyone can have one. rigs can set up for all i care.
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.04.01 05:48:00 - [106] Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 01/04/2007 05:44:57 Originally by: Basics i'm glad rigs are high. i wish t2 ships didn't go down. cus than not everyone can have one. rigs can set up for all i care. Rig units are cheap from how i see it but some are higher from lack of salvage. But i think i rig should stay about 10mil-15mil(kinda low for most), no less then 5m a pop. T2 ships were inflated. T2 ship parts and production time set aside they made more then 500% profit for ships. The price should drop to about 100 to 200% profit, well as long as the T2 parts stay low(maybe a increase into how many units a t2 takes may be needed).
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.01 07:08:00 - [107] Edited by: Goumindong on 01/04/2007 07:05:28 Originally by: Vincent Almasy Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 01/04/2007 05:44:57 Originally by: Basics i'm glad rigs are high. i wish t2 ships didn't go down. cus than not everyone can have one. rigs can set up for all i care. Rig units are cheap from how i see it but some are higher from lack of salvage. But i think i rig should stay about 10mil-15mil(kinda low for most), no less then 5m a pop. T2 ships were inflated. T2 ship parts and production time set aside they made more then 500% profit for ships. The price should drop to about 100 to 200% profit, well as long as the T2 parts stay low(maybe a increase into how many units a t2 takes may be needed). If you are looking to set prices[and CCP is] setting prices based on the build cost of an item is rather counterproductive, especialy when build cost is arbitrary depending on item supply, something CCP controls ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Badhands Gallente DarkStar 1 Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.04.01 07:54:00 - [108] Originally by: Sadist Originally by: Blind Man i think T2 rig prices should be at about what t1 rig prices are at right now, and make t1 rigs cost <1m, so definitely agreed The stupidest remark in a century. Rigs are cheap enough as it is, but they aren't mean to be as disposable as ammo. Actually... yes. Yes they are meant to be VERY cheap, even disposable. According to Oveur (That IS who it was, and it WAS on EveTV, you're on point Xori).
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.04.01 11:32:00 - [109] Rigs need to come in size classes where this is possible. Could be easily accomplished for stuff like mass, weapons, powergrid etc.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.04.01 11:46:00 - [110] Rigs are fine. Where did anyone ever say that everyone should be able to rig his ships without needing to think about wether or not its worth it ? Just a fyi. Evolution is horrendously rich as a corp. I mean, really stupidly wealthy. I have not had any of my pvp ships rigged yet. ... [center] Old blog
HeadTycoon	Posted - 2007.04.01 12:12:00 - [111] Originally by: AvatarADV One of the reasons that -all- rigs are so expensive is that there's not much variety in the parts needed in order to construct rigs. Yup, that's a point in whole discussion. I made billions ISKs (around 10 so far) in rigs in my spare time (I mostly PVP with another char), so I know a bit about it. Circuits are the problem. Simple 2 steps to resolve it for CCP: 1. Check turnover in Jita in last 2 months, and group rigs in two groups - high and low demand. 2. Make all high demand use the same 2 circuits types - let them compete among themselves. Make all low demand use other 2 types. C'mon, it doesn't need a rocket scientist :) On a side note, in curent model don't expect any lower prices - price for salvage materials hit the bottom and are rising currently. I imagine, if people do salvaging and they earn less and less over time, some of them stop doing that, causing less salvage on market and price rise. That's what I see now. Cheers
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.04.01 15:50:00 - [112] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 01/04/2007 07:05:28 Originally by: Vincent Almasy Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 01/04/2007 05:44:57 Originally by: Basics i'm glad rigs are high. i wish t2 ships didn't go down. cus than not everyone can have one. rigs can set up for all i care. Rig units are cheap from how i see it but some are higher from lack of salvage. But i think i rig should stay about 10mil-15mil(kinda low for most), no less then 5m a pop. T2 ships were inflated. T2 ship parts and production time set aside they made more then 500% profit for ships. The price should drop to about 100 to 200% profit, well as long as the T2 parts stay low(maybe a increase into how many units a t2 takes may be needed). If you are looking to set prices[and CCP is] setting prices based on the build cost of an item is rather counterproductive, especialy when build cost is arbitrary depending on item supply, something CCP controls That is correct if not for one flaw. I had said befor more of the rare parts that are high prices from from lowsec or 0.0 pirate wrecks and not missions. The problem is most of these wrecks are left alone and unsalvaged and so the parts are simply lost. There needs to be a way to salvage as most people who are killing these rats will not give up part of their setup for salvagers and tractor beams. There are more then enough materials just we are not tapping into them yet.
Flaming sambuka Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.04.01 15:58:00 - [113] Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Originally by: Phelan Lore Make rigs drop as loot from player ships. Dude that would KICK ASS >:D Indeed it would.
Word	Posted - 2007.04.01 16:34:00 - [114] Everyone makes good points here. I got burned when I bought propellent vent bpo, then salvaged all the materials to build two riggs, then wake up one morning after the patch to find two lousy cheap aux thrusters. Salvage IS really a pain! that's why they're expensive. And when CCP arbitrailly switches rigs on you, it really sucks. Here's one of the new "improvements" : You go to your wreck and now I'm getting, "The wreck has already been salvaged" W T F ?? This is just of the additional difficulty factors recently ADDED to make it harder. Although I must say WELL DONE CCP for allowing salvage without popping a can first. This one little thing has helped speed up the salvaging process.
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.04.01 17:03:00 - [115] Originally by: Word Here's one of the new "improvements" : You go to your wreck and now I'm getting, "The wreck has already been salvaged" W T F ?? This is just of the additional difficulty factors recently ADDED to make it harder. This happens when you have two salvagers on same target. salvager 1 gets the parts but when salvager 2 tried to it is already salvaged. This does not boost difficulty, they lowered it from highented drop rate I only have one complaint... WTF is with the scrap metal i get from what seemed named NPC during missions?
Word	Posted - 2007.04.01 17:19:00 - [116] Originally by: Vincent Almasy This happens when you have two salvagers on same target. salvager 1 gets the parts but when salvager 2 tried to it is already salvaged. This does not boost difficulty, they lowered it from highented drop rate I only have one complaint... WTF is with the scrap metal i get from what seemed named NPC during missions?[/quote Ah, thanks, that makes sense. yeah, the scrap metal requires a lot more cargo space, and it's relativly worthless on the market. I usually jettison it now. I did notice that yesterday that I got some good stuff with the scap metal, so that's ok. You just have to make room for it and can be an inconvenience.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.01 17:45:00 - [117] Originally by: Vincent Almasy That is correct if not for one flaw. I had said befor more of the rare parts that are high prices from from lowsec or 0.0 pirate wrecks and not missions. The problem is most of these wrecks are left alone and unsalvaged and so the parts are simply lost. There needs to be a way to salvage as most people who are killing these rats will not give up part of their setup for salvagers and tractor beams. There are more then enough materials just we are not tapping into them yet. It is not that "we are not tapping into them" it is that each individual player makes a concious and correct decision to not salvage because it would take more time than it is worth to them in order to make that salvage be profitable. They wanted to make it mini-profession lite, which i can respect, because with the population increases it will [and is] become increasingly hard to find rats near congregation points. While this isnt really a problem in low sec due to the number of stations, in 0.0 this can become a huge issue do to GSC availability. So salvage becomes another thing for people to do without cutting into the ratting of people. This is good. Its just that the amount of rigs you get from each rat you salvage isnt high enough. If Rigs are to be similar to even many tech 2 mods this has to increase drastically. I mean, how many rats do i have to kill and bring in their loot to be able to refine that stuff and make a module I want? Two, maybe three depending if the module is resource intensive. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.04.01 18:51:00 - [118] Originally by: Goumindong Its just that the amount of rigs you get from each rat you salvage isnt high enough. If Rigs are to be similar to even many tech 2 mods this has to increase drastically. I mean, how many rats do i have to kill and bring in their loot to be able to refine that stuff and make a module I want? Two, maybe three depending if the module is resource intensive. I'm sorry i don't fully understand what you are trying to say in this last piece. As for asking for the modification to be increased, i would say no, but make the rig part of the ship -aka- pre stacking nerf so rig on stack with other rig and not modules. normaly t2 is only better then t1 by about 10-20% And as for the question on rats to make a mod you'd have to get alot to add on a somewhat of a free bonus without taking up a slot. The amount of rats you need to kill also takes into account and size, but they have to take enough parts so you don't just spit them out. They are not ment to be super cheap but help specialize so they should cost a bit. 10-15 or up to 20mil on a t1 mod should be a good price, it shrinks down to the 10-15mil range when the rarer parts are gained from their respective wrecks from low/0.0 space. Just like mining, you can get alot os parts form highsec but for the good things you need minerals from lowsec and the better ones then that from 0.0 space. This should also apply to rigs.
Capt Rob Minmatar Black Omega Security GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.04.01 19:00:00 - [119] on the having rigs drop idea, i recently killed a scorp and there were 3 rigs in his cargo along with everything else he had fitted cus nothing blew up. prob bug, but was nice to get some rigs
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.01 19:01:00 - [120] Originally by: Vincent Almasy Originally by: Goumindong Its just that the amount of rigs you get from each rat you salvage isnt high enough. If Rigs are to be similar to even many tech 2 mods this has to increase drastically. I mean, how many rats do i have to kill and bring in their loot to be able to refine that stuff and make a module I want? Two, maybe three depending if the module is resource intensive. I'm sorry i don't fully understand what you are trying to say in this last piece. As for asking for the modification to be increased, i would say no, but make the rig part of the ship -aka- pre stacking nerf so rig on stack with other rig and not modules. normaly t2 is only better then t1 by about 10-20% And as for the question on rats to make a mod you'd have to get alot to add on a somewhat of a free bonus without taking up a slot. The amount of rats you need to kill also takes into account and size, but they have to take enough parts so you don't just spit them out. They are not ment to be super cheap but help specialize so they should cost a bit. 10-15 or up to 20mil on a t1 mod should be a good price, it shrinks down to the 10-15mil range when the rarer parts are gained from their respective wrecks from low/0.0 space. Just like mining, you can get alot os parts form highsec but for the good things you need minerals from lowsec and the better ones then that from 0.0 space. This should also apply to rigs. Yea, you dont get it at all. number of rats needed to make a "module" by refining rat loot = x number of rats needed to make a "rig" by salvaging= y If rigs are to be common, like modules, as they are intended[see Oveur eve-tv comment], then y needs to increase to nearer to the value of x. If i need to make an armor hardener it takes maybe two to three cruiser rats to make that happen with bad refining skills and bad production skills on an unresearched BPO. Rigs are not "free slots" rigs that are unused are wasted slots. A ship with 3 cccs has a 62% capacitor recharge advantage over a ship without. No penalty. A ship with 3 SMCs has a 52% capacitor advantage and a 52% recharge advantage over a ship without. That isnt a "free slot" its a wasted slot if its not used. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"

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