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Xori Ruscuv
The Scope
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Posted - 2007.03.29 19:03:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 29/03/2007 19:03:11 WARNING: You have entered whine thread. There will be whining involved about how CCP has designed a feature in the game. If you do not like it, GTFO now - before it is too late.
Rigs are too expensive (Well, wasn't that just the understatement of the century...) This isn't the industrialists' fault. Salvage only comes in so fast, and they have to make a profit. At that, I don't think they are making MUCH profit.
People say rigs will come down in price. Well, they HAVE come down in price. However, they aren't going to sink much lower without intervention from CCP. (What I'm saying here is that a 40m rig might fall to 35m due to competition, but IT WILL NOT fall to 10m or so without changes to the system.)
Before some macro-econ-know-it-all-WANNABE TWIT comes in here and starts blathering on about "supply and demand": realize that there is FAR MORE to pricing and cost than just supply and demand. You will notice that there is NO shortage of various types of rigs. You might notice that rig cost is HIGHLY DEPENDENT ON SALVAGE COST. Reducing salvage value (ie. salvage RARITY, ie. influencing supply of SALVAGE) is the answer. Supply and demand on rigs themselves has little to do with the cost of rigs, due to the much larger dependency on salvage cost.
Why are these prices a bad thing? The present rig prices are a bad thing because: - The rigs are completely out of reach for new players (especially in PVP). This actively discourages new players from accessing the PVP combat element - arguably one of the richest features of the game
- The prices encourage metagaming: The rigs are out of reach for most players (for PVP) without a second account with which they can ***** missions/mine/whatever (that is, if their primary account is not viable for it, which is the case for many players)
- The prices induce mega-grinding of the metagame: Even if a player DOES have the time to ***** for money on a second account, they will spend SUBSTANTIALLY more time doing so, because using rigs on their BCs/BSes/CSes literally doubles the price of the setups (yes, rigs ARE required if you are going to PVP) This introduces a whole new level of grind to Eve.
- Rigging previously combat-viable ships (such as cruisers) is completely pointless - ie. rigging a 5m isk cruiser with 120m of rigs. Pfffft.
- I'm not saying that everything should be free or that everything should be cheap. However it is NOT good if game enjoyment is severely limited by being UNABLE to win AT ALL due to purely economic factors.
What can be done - Decrease quantities required to build rigs - Increase salvage quantities - Rebalance rigs (rig design is poor - it assumes that 10% of anything is "equal" to 10% of anything else; some drawbacks are too huge, others too little; and in general, (all else being equal) a rigged ship overpowers a non-rigged ship by FAR too large a margin)
Discuss. If you disagree, explain why in detail.
(PS. written at work, might contain errors, I will edit them out as I notice them)
- - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS!
Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.03.29 19:08:00 -
[2]
Easiest way to reduce the cost of rigs is to salvage. And tell all those other players that don't because "its not worth the time" to do so.
Everytime someone says "its not worth the time to salvage, I can just buy the rigs" someone raises their prices 
No intervention or game mechanic changes are needed. The prices are 100% the players' fault. <-----------> Keiron: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427556&page=2
PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to the entire player base |

Badhands
Gallente DarkStar 1 Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.03.29 19:08:00 -
[3]
My understanding is that rigs are meant to be disposable... that we should have no problem installing a rig, playing with it for a few days, pulling it out and installing a new one. I can't remember which dev said this, so flame or whatever. It really doesn't matter.
An obviousd fix would be to double salvage reward, and halve the build reqs.
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Xori Ruscuv
The Scope
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Posted - 2007.03.29 19:12:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 29/03/2007 19:13:30
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Easiest way to reduce the cost of rigs is to salvage. ....... No intervention or game mechanic changes are needed. The prices are 100% the players' fault.
I disagree. There is a certain value on a person's time. The current salvage prices are actually NOT exorbitant (AFIACT) based on the amount of time required to gather such salvage.
Therefore - while the prices ARE set by the players, it isn't necessarily their "fault" - and CCP CAN control the prices by making modifications to salvage rates/requirements.
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Everytime someone says "its not worth the time to salvage, I can just buy the rigs" someone raises their prices 
That is very true. However, like I mentioned, there is a certain value on a person's time. FWIW, this whine is not necessarily about me in particular. I want to see new playeres getting into PVP. I hate the grind time I have to put in to make the money... but I've done missions with my alt and salvaged them. It is as soul-destroying as mining, and you reap relatively little reward.
Originally by: Badhands My understanding is that rigs are meant to be disposable... that we should have no problem installing a rig, playing with it for a few days, pulling it out and installing a new one. I can't remember which dev said this
I believe it was Oveur who said that in an interview on Eve-TV or something. I STRONGLY agree with that notion. Unforutnately, rigs are beginning to be very important in PVP balance, and they are being paid NO mind (at least publicly).
- - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS!
Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
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Slayton Ford
Caldari Kudzu Collective
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Posted - 2007.03.29 19:22:00 -
[5]
I just rigged a raven and a salvage ship. Guess which one cost more?
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Xori Ruscuv
Takin' a break
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Posted - 2007.03.29 19:27:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 29/03/2007 19:23:45
Originally by: Slayton Ford I just rigged a raven and a salvage ship. Guess which one cost more?
Hmm.. Let me see..
3x CCC = 24m x 3 = 72m
3x Salv tackle = 3 x 15m = 45m
Sooo... uhm... the Raven? Maybe? Or... not?

- - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS!
Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
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Blind Man
Kemono.
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Posted - 2007.03.29 19:29:00 -
[7]
i think T2 rig prices should be at about what t1 rig prices are at right now, and make t1 rigs cost <1m, so definitely agreed
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hereward rowland
Macrocosm Advanced Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.29 19:42:00 -
[8]
flame flame flameflame flame.... flame!!!!!!!11111
y should a new player be able to even think about pvping a much older (i say older because most older players are able to afford them... im not one of them ) and y should we hand new players everything on a platter?
and if you think they are to expensive build them.. then they cost you nothing but time..
flame flame flameflame flame.... flame!!!!!!!11111 
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Xori Ruscuv
Takin' a break
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Posted - 2007.03.29 19:46:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 29/03/2007 19:43:09
Originally by: hereward rowland and y should we hand new players everything on a platter?
I specifically mentioned that I do NOT think that. However, there is a certain point, I believe, where expense is TOO prohibitive to gameplay. I believe rigs reach this point.
Quote: and if you think they are to expensive build them.. then they cost you nothing but time..
I've done so. However, it takes a LOT of time (by which I mean 16ish hours of missions/salvaging, and I've got barely enough for one rig, and it is a rig that I don't want). This is the "Grind factor" I'm talking about. Salvage requirements are too high (or salvage rates are too low).
- - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS!
Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
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Mayhem Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.03.29 19:59:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Mayhem Unleashed on 29/03/2007 19:55:46
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
I disagree. There is a certain value on a person's time. The current salvage prices are actually NOT exorbitant (AFIACT) based on the amount of time required to gather such salvage.
AFIACT ??? WTF!?!?! did you just make that up lol?
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Xori Ruscuv
Takin' a break
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Posted - 2007.03.29 20:06:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 29/03/2007 20:03:50
Originally by: Mayhem Unleashed Edited by: Mayhem Unleashed on 29/03/2007 19:55:46
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
I disagree. There is a certain value on a person's time. The current salvage prices are actually NOT exorbitant (AFIACT) based on the amount of time required to gather such salvage.
AFIACT ??? WTF!?!?! did you just make that up lol?
OMG no LOL!... WTF, only seen it a few times LOL! It was mispelled, too, WTF LOL... WTF, OMG it should have been "AFAICT" LOL.
Obviously, you got the point though. 
- - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS!
Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
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Phelan Lore
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.03.29 20:17:00 -
[12]
Make rigs drop as loot from player ships. -
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Heikki
Gallente Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.03.29 20:17:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv rig prices are a bad thing .. out of reach for new players .. discourages new players
Couldn't the same be said about T2 items (in addition to ISK, they require huge skills, and are more mandatory than rigs), and pretty much about all ownage ships (like capitals)?
So, are you in effect arguing that pretty much all ships and fitting options should have very accessable cost (and low skill requirements)? Or could you just be making up excuses without much thinking?
IMHO, rigs are mostly nice, except: - Some of the rigs are far too powerful (especially compared to price) - They increase PvP ability, without increasing opponent's loot value (compare to having your enemy having uber officer fitted ship, and your joy if finally managing to kill him)
So, would have somewhat similar improvement suggestions as the OP: - CCP should check that what are the most popular rigs, and nerf those - Make rigs drop as loot (that is when you salvage you get 50% of salvage materials used on that ship)
The latter option should eventually drop the price of some rigs a bit.
-Lasse
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Xori Ruscuv
Takin' a break
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Posted - 2007.03.29 20:25:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Phelan Lore Make rigs drop as loot from player ships.
Dude that would KICK ASS >:D
- - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS!
Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
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Waxau
Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers
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Posted - 2007.03.29 20:29:00 -
[15]
Rigs cost a good amount - Makes rigging ships for pvp expensive but worth it. And means that not EVERYONE is rigged.
I like it how it is.
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Xori Ruscuv
Takin' a break
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Posted - 2007.03.29 20:30:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 29/03/2007 20:28:02
Originally by: Heikki Couldn't the same be said about T2 items
No. T2 items aren't anywhere near as expensive as rigs (with a few exceptions) - and in case you hadn't noticed, CCP is doing something about the T2 system.
Besides - saying "something else is broken so it is ok that this is broken" is a **** poor argument.
Quote: they require huge skills, and are more mandatory than rigs),
How do you figure? I wouldn't say one is MORE or LESS mandatory than another... they are both mandatory (T2 just got there first).
Quote: and pretty much about all ownage ships (like capitals)?
These are ships with VERY special purposes. Not 'general purpose' ships like battleships, etc.
Quote: - Some of the rigs are far too powerful (especially compared to price)
Yup.
Originally by: Waxau Rigs cost a good amount - Makes rigging ships for pvp expensive but worth it. And means that not EVERYONE is rigged. I like it how it is.
Of course you do. You are a 2 year player who flies Caldari on your main. You have a good sec status. This makes me think that you aren't hard up for money, and don't need a second account to manage.
It also means that there is one more HUGE advantage you have - never having to worry about whether that noob's ship over there has any rigs in it.
- - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS!
Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
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Trisae
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Posted - 2007.03.29 20:30:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Easiest way to reduce the cost of rigs is to salvage. And tell all those other players that don't because "its not worth the time" to do so.
Everytime someone says "its not worth the time to salvage, I can just buy the rigs" someone raises their prices 
No intervention or game mechanic changes are needed. The prices are 100% the players' fault.
Umm, no. You're stupid.
The prices are dependant on how long it takes to salvage the parts needed to build the rig, which is mostly up to CCP.
Unless you expect people to just build rigs regardless of how cost of effective salvaging is?
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Nyana
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Posted - 2007.03.29 20:31:00 -
[18]
Everybody shouldn't have rigs. Some are too expensive, I agree that those should go down in price. 10-17 million is perfectly acceptable, though.
Newbies can't afford rigs, that's no good argument. Can they afford fully T2/faction fitted ships? No?
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Xori Ruscuv
Takin' a break
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Posted - 2007.03.29 20:35:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 29/03/2007 20:32:59
Originally by: Nyana Everybody shouldn't have rigs. Some are too expensive, I agree that those should go down in price. 10-17 million is perfectly acceptable, though.
Yes, 10-ish million would be acceptable. Most rigs (useful in pvp) are nowhere near this, however.
Quote: Newbies can't afford rigs, that's no good argument. Can they afford fully T2/faction fitted ships? No?
Perhaps I'm not explaining this clearly.
T2, yes. Because they HAVE to. Rigs are becoming that way. Faction is actually rare enough to where if you run into someone with a faction fit, you're unlucky. If you gank them, you're lucky.
There is a "critical mass" where, when something is used enough, everyone must use it in order to compete.
T2 reached that "critical mass" a long time ago. Rigs are about to reach that critical mass - if they haven't already. (I personally believe they have, but only have minimal and circumstantial evidence by which to make that declaration.)
The difference is: T2 isn't near as expensive as rigs. T2 market is also being fixed. T2 being 'broken' is a poor excuse for the state of rigs.
- - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS!
Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
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Trisae
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Posted - 2007.03.29 20:37:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Trisae on 29/03/2007 20:33:55
Originally by: Heikki
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv rig prices are a bad thing .. out of reach for new players .. discourages new players
Couldn't the same be said about T2 items (in addition to ISK, they require huge skills, and are more mandatory than rigs), and pretty much about all ownage ships (like capitals)?
Which is exactly why CCP boosted invention, so T2 would be more accessible.
Capital ships were never designed to be everyday items, they were designed for corps and alliances to use in their big wars. I thought rigs were designed for most to use...perhaps I was wrong.
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Sikozu Prioris
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Posted - 2007.03.29 20:37:00 -
[21]
The main expense with rigs is caused only be a few expensive componets overall, with only one of the three needed to build a rig being at a high price. This is of course to do with a limited drop rate and supply.
This is what I tell everyone who complains....
1- TRAIN PE TO LEVEL 4
2- BUY THE RIG BPO THEY ARE SO DARN CHEEP
3- SET UP BUY ORDERS FOR THE MATERIALS YOU NEED
4- WELL DONE YOU'VE JUST MADE RIGS CHEEPER THAN MARKET COST
Seriously PE to lv4 takes no time at all, the cost of the rig bpo is easily covered in most cases by the profit margin you ddnt pay to the person selling on the market. Just dont buy components straight from sell orders in most cases, a bit a patience and you get things alot cheeper.
And just to let you know I make rigs at a nice profit by selling, save loads on the ones I use myself and dont salvage at all.
Prices are still high but you dont make someone else richer.
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Xori Ruscuv
Takin' a break
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Posted - 2007.03.29 20:49:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 29/03/2007 20:53:33
Originally by: Sikozu Prioris 3- SET UP BUY ORDERS FOR THE MATERIALS YOU NEED
I think that is where the probelm is, however.
Component prices are way out of whack. Will this come down significantly? I'm thinking not. Reason being: salvage is already rather cheap when you consider the amount of time required to produce it.
Originally by: Trisae I thought rigs were designed for most to use...perhaps I was wrong.
You are not wrong. This was the claim of at least one dev.
However, some very old and very rich players seem to miss this point.
I'm not that old, but I'm not that poor, either. I can afford rigs. That doesn't mean that I think it is good for balance.
It isn't.
Of course we have inevitable posts from the players who say "HAHAHA LULZ NOOB", or "its fine leave it", with little thought at all. I wouldn't mind if someone actually supported their opinion.
Let me review this again: - Some items weren't meant to be accessible, they were meant to be special purpose (capitals for example). - Some items were meant to be accessible but the system failed. (T2 for example.) That's why T2 is being revamped. - Rigs aren't so different from T2. They are intended to be general purpose (as evidenced by the cheap and plentiful BPOs and comments from the devs). Yet they are a HUGE advantage (often overpowered) which few are able to afford due to poor implementation.
- - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS!
Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
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Waxau
Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers
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Posted - 2007.03.29 21:18:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Originally by: Waxau Rigs cost a good amount - Makes rigging ships for pvp expensive but worth it. And means that not EVERYONE is rigged. I like it how it is.
Of course you do. You are a 2 year player who flies Caldari on your main. You have a good sec status. This makes me think that you aren't hard up for money, and don't need a second account to manage.
It also means that there is one more HUGE advantage you have - never having to worry about whether that noob's ship over there has any rigs in it.
Huh? I pvp in 0.0, fly every ship from AF, to capital ships....My good sec status is from ratting, not missions either. Infact i dont even have a lv1 agent for some reason. And no i dont need a second account to manage. No one does. My second account is for general corp production. My main (Wax) is used for pvp, ratting, and literally, everything. I dont have t2 bpo, or any form of profitable production or trading. All my isk is from pvp and ratting.
So if you're trying to make out like im some lucky sod with tonnes of cash...then you're wrong. Im just like every other player in game - If not worse off than many. The only difference is that i know the difference rigs make, and they should NOT be any cheaper - If they get any cheaper, you'll see every ship in game rigged, and that just makes eve that much more boring.
Rigs were made to make pvp in eve more varied - And it wont be varied if rigs become cheap, and everyone fits CCC rigs.
The prices dictate what rigs are picked, as much as how useful they are. And any cheaper, and you'll lose that variety. And that makes eve that much more boring.
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Roy Batty68
Caldari Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2007.03.29 21:22:00 -
[24]
Chance based salvaging... Why? That's my main beef. I have salvaging at level 4, and fully salvaging rigged out destroyer that gets the job done pretty quick. But I still see, "your salvaging attempt failed blah blah" a bit too much.
Anyway, the market needs to be flooded with waaaay too many components for prices to drop to the level some of you are wanting. So that means: - More people start salvaging - CCP ups the yield amounts from each salvage - CCP lowers failure rate or speeds up salvaging somehow - CCP lowers amounts needed to build each rig - CCP rebalances amounts of each component so there isn't a few needed for so many different rigs
At least one or two of the above. Hmm. Most of that is in CCP's hands. Except for one I didn't mention yet... - More people start selling their components instead of hording and building rigs themselves
I think that's a very likely scenario. I know I've yet to buy a rig for myself. At those prices? Bump that! I'll just build it myself.

------------------- Say What? |

Wayward Hooligan
Gallente SniggWaffe Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.03.29 21:23:00 -
[25]
I'd have to agree with a few people on here.
t1 rigs at 10 - 15 mil a pop would be acceptable. Increase amount of salvage from salvaging a wreck. Decrease amount of salvage necessary to produce rig xyz. Rigs should have a chance to drop in wrecks after a pvp kill just like anything else.
Rigs shouldn't be an elite item that are only fitted on BS and t2 ships.
That being said they are too new for CCP to have had much chance to balance them.
SCRAP WALKING IN THE STATIONS AND FIX BROKEN FEATURES.
YARRR!!!
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Christopher Dalran
Gallente Deadly Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.29 21:24:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Christopher Dalran on 29/03/2007 21:22:10 Find an alliance and go out to 0.0, then just follow all the ratters around and salvage their wrecks. Make sure you ask first but 99.9% of the ratters cant be bothered to salvage (or in many cases even loot) their wrecks because it slows them down in terms of finding the next 2mill or faction spawn (which might get destroyed by someone else why they salvage).
I think i would get enough to build a new rig every 15 to 20 minutes doing that, the trick was just to do ANYTHING else why the ratters have a chance to pile up alot of wrecks and then fly out there and gettem all quick. Unfortunatly you cant use a tractor beam (nobody will gang with you because bounties get split then).
Also note that missions spawns drop signifigantly less salvage than 0.0 rats, you can collect quite a large stock of salvage picking up after others. ------------------------------- C.D's Formula for success ------------------------------- Credit Card = Game Time Card Gametime Card = ISK Therefore Credit Card = ISK.
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Fallaize
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Posted - 2007.03.29 21:25:00 -
[27]
I myself build Rigs and I can tell you for fact that on the most Rigs The Profit Margins are anywhere between 10 - 20%. This profit margin is only there if you have a ME22 BPO, Top end Production Efficiency skills and if you are using a POS manufacturing Facility which Further reduces the Material Costs.
Here is an example for a Cap Control Circuit on an Unresearched BPO. (Assume top Production Efficiency and Basic Manufacturing Facilities)
83 Burnt Logic Circuits @ 86K = 7,138,000
22 Melted Cap Consoles @ 532K = 11,704,000
72 Tripped Power Circuits @ 52K = 3,744,000
Total Build Cost = 22,586,000
Now looking on Jita today the Lowest Price for a Cap Control Circuit is 22,700,00. This is a Profit of 114,000 or .5% (yes that is half a Percent). I would say this number is accurate to within 5% as it is possible to get cheaper salvage in other regions but it requires shopping around and alot of Jumps.
The Prices for the salvage is the best Buy order prices in Jita today. In order to see these prices to come down salvage must become cheaper and in order for that to happen More needs to be dropped as if the price of salvage drops with the current salvage drop rate people who salvage will stop doing so because it will be more profitable to just grind the missions.
In some cases (I grind missions for my salvage as well as buy it off market) it is actually more profitable to sell salvage to buy orders as the margins are so tight on the rigs themselves now that it does not make much difference.
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Xori Ruscuv
Takin' a break
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Posted - 2007.03.29 21:25:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Christopher Dalran Also note that missions spawns drop signifigantly less salvage than 0.0 rats, you can collect quite a large stock of salvage picking up after others.
Hmm, interesting. I didn't know.
- - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS!
Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
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Xori Ruscuv
Takin' a break
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Posted - 2007.03.29 21:28:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Waxau The prices dictate what rigs are picked, as much as how useful they are. And any cheaper, and you'll lose that variety. And that makes eve that much more boring.
Honestly only a few rigs are useful anyway, man. In any system, there will be cookie cutters. The casting of rigs as a way to break the cookie cutters is complete rubbish. There will ALWAYS be a "best".
I don't think it is price that is making them unique... it is just making PVP slower and more blobby. - Slower becuase you have to grind more to manage - More blobby because spending more time grinding = being ever more scared to lose expensive ****. (I mean, lets be honest - "only fly what you can afford to lose" ended a long time ago, ESPECIALLY in alliance warfare)
- - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS!
Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
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Xori Ruscuv
Takin' a break
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Posted - 2007.03.29 21:31:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Wayward Hooligan I'd have to agree with a few people on here.
t1 rigs at 10 - 15 mil a pop would be acceptable. Increase amount of salvage from salvaging a wreck. Decrease amount of salvage necessary to produce rig xyz. Rigs should have a chance to drop in wrecks after a pvp kill just like anything else.
Rigs shouldn't be an elite item that are only fitted on BS and t2 ships.
That being said they are too new for CCP to have had much chance to balance them.
SCRAP WALKING IN THE STATIONS AND FIX BROKEN FEATURES.
o/ Wayward!
Agreed on all points. Especially the last one.
- - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS!
Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
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