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Rigs are too expensive. What can be done about it?

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Xori Ruscuv The Scope	Posted - 2007.03.29 19:03:00 - [1] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 29/03/2007 19:03:11 WARNING: You have entered whine thread. There will be whining involved about how CCP has designed a feature in the game. If you do not like it, GTFO now - before it is too late. Rigs are too expensive (Well, wasn't that just the understatement of the century...) This isn't the industrialists' fault. Salvage only comes in so fast, and they have to make a profit. At that, I don't think they are making MUCH profit. People say rigs will come down in price. Well, they HAVE come down in price. However, they aren't going to sink much lower without intervention from CCP. (What I'm saying here is that a 40m rig might fall to 35m due to competition, but IT WILL NOT fall to 10m or so without changes to the system.) Before some macro-econ-know-it-all-WANNABE TWIT comes in here and starts blathering on about "supply and demand": realize that there is FAR MORE to pricing and cost than just supply and demand. You will notice that there is NO shortage of various types of rigs. You might notice that rig cost is HIGHLY DEPENDENT ON SALVAGE COST. Reducing salvage value (ie. salvage RARITY, ie. influencing supply of SALVAGE) is the answer. Supply and demand on rigs themselves has little to do with the cost of rigs, due to the much larger dependency on salvage cost. Why are these prices a bad thing? The present rig prices are a bad thing because: - The rigs are completely out of reach for new players (especially in PVP). This actively discourages new players from accessing the PVP combat element - arguably one of the richest features of the game - The prices encourage metagaming: The rigs are out of reach for most players (for PVP) without a second account with which they can *** missions/mine/whatever (that is, if their primary account is not viable for it, which is the case for many players) - The prices induce mega-grinding of the metagame: Even if a player DOES have the time to *** for money on a second account, they will spend SUBSTANTIALLY more time doing so, because using rigs on their BCs/BSes/CSes literally doubles the price of the setups (yes, rigs ARE required if you are going to PVP) This introduces a whole new level of grind to Eve. - Rigging previously combat-viable ships (such as cruisers) is completely pointless - ie. rigging a 5m isk cruiser with 120m of rigs. Pfffft. - I'm not saying that everything should be free or that everything should be cheap. However it is NOT good if game enjoyment is severely limited by being UNABLE to win AT ALL due to purely economic factors. What can be done - Decrease quantities required to build rigs - Increase salvage quantities - Rebalance rigs (rig design is poor - it assumes that 10% of anything is "equal" to 10% of anything else; some drawbacks are too huge, others too little; and in general, (all else being equal) a rigged ship overpowers a non-rigged ship by FAR too large a margin) *Discuss. If you disagree, explain why in detail.* (PS. written at work, might contain errors, I will edit them out as I notice them) - - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS! Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.29 19:08:00 - [2] Easiest way to reduce the cost of rigs is to salvage. And tell all those other players that don't because "its not worth the time" to do so. Everytime someone says "its not worth the time to salvage, I can just buy the rigs" someone raises their prices No intervention or game mechanic changes are needed. The prices are 100% the players' fault. <-----------> Keiron: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427556&page=2 PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to the entire player base
Badhands Gallente DarkStar 1 Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.03.29 19:08:00 - [3] My understanding is that rigs are meant to be disposable... that we should have no problem installing a rig, playing with it for a few days, pulling it out and installing a new one. I can't remember which dev said this, so flame or whatever. It really doesn't matter. An obviousd fix would be to double salvage reward, and halve the build reqs.
Xori Ruscuv The Scope	Posted - 2007.03.29 19:12:00 - [4] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 29/03/2007 19:13:30 Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Easiest way to reduce the cost of rigs is to salvage. ....... No intervention or game mechanic changes are needed. The prices are 100% the players' fault. I disagree. There is a certain value on a person's time. The current salvage prices are actually NOT exorbitant (AFIACT) based on the amount of time required to gather such salvage. Therefore - while the prices ARE set by the players, it isn't necessarily their "fault" - and CCP CAN control the prices by making modifications to salvage rates/requirements. Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Everytime someone says "its not worth the time to salvage, I can just buy the rigs" someone raises their prices That is very true. However, like I mentioned, there is a certain value on a person's time. FWIW, this whine is not necessarily about me in particular. I want to see new playeres getting into PVP. I hate the grind time I have to put in to make the money... but I've done missions with my alt and salvaged them. It is as soul-destroying as mining, and you reap relatively little reward. Originally by: Badhands My understanding is that rigs are meant to be disposable... that we should have no problem installing a rig, playing with it for a few days, pulling it out and installing a new one. I can't remember which dev said this I believe it was Oveur who said that in an interview on Eve-TV or something. I STRONGLY agree with that notion. Unforutnately, rigs are beginning to be very important in PVP balance, and they are being paid NO mind (at least publicly). - - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS! Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
Slayton Ford Caldari Kudzu Collective	Posted - 2007.03.29 19:22:00 - [5] I just rigged a raven and a salvage ship. Guess which one cost more?
Xori Ruscuv Takin' a break	Posted - 2007.03.29 19:27:00 - [6] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 29/03/2007 19:23:45 Originally by: Slayton Ford I just rigged a raven and a salvage ship. Guess which one cost more? Hmm.. Let me see.. 3x CCC = 24m x 3 = 72m 3x Salv tackle = 3 x 15m = 45m Sooo... uhm... the Raven? Maybe? Or... not? - - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS! Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
Blind Man Kemono.	Posted - 2007.03.29 19:29:00 - [7] i think T2 rig prices should be at about what t1 rig prices are at right now, and make t1 rigs cost <1m, so definitely agreed
hereward rowland Macrocosm Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.03.29 19:42:00 - [8] flame flame flameflame flame.... flame!!!!!!!11111 y should a new player be able to even think about pvping a much older (i say older because most older players are able to afford them... im not one of them ) and y should we hand new players everything on a platter? and if you think they are to expensive build them.. then they cost you nothing but time.. flame flame flameflame flame.... flame!!!!!!!11111
Xori Ruscuv Takin' a break	Posted - 2007.03.29 19:46:00 - [9] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 29/03/2007 19:43:09 Originally by: hereward rowland and y should we hand new players everything on a platter? I specifically mentioned that I do NOT think that. However, there is a certain point, I believe, where expense is TOO prohibitive to gameplay. I believe rigs reach this point. Quote: and if you think they are to expensive build them.. then they cost you nothing but time.. I've done so. However, it takes a LOT of time (by which I mean 16ish hours of missions/salvaging, and I've got barely enough for one rig, and it is a rig that I don't want). This is the "Grind factor" I'm talking about. Salvage requirements are too high (or salvage rates are too low). - - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS! Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
Mayhem Unleashed	Posted - 2007.03.29 19:59:00 - [10] Edited by: Mayhem Unleashed on 29/03/2007 19:55:46 Originally by: Xori Ruscuv I disagree. There is a certain value on a person's time. The current salvage prices are actually NOT exorbitant (AFIACT) based on the amount of time required to gather such salvage. AFIACT ??? WTF!?!?! did you just make that up lol?
Xori Ruscuv Takin' a break	Posted - 2007.03.29 20:06:00 - [11] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 29/03/2007 20:03:50 Originally by: Mayhem Unleashed Edited by: Mayhem Unleashed on 29/03/2007 19:55:46 Originally by: Xori Ruscuv I disagree. There is a certain value on a person's time. The current salvage prices are actually NOT exorbitant (AFIACT) based on the amount of time required to gather such salvage. AFIACT ??? WTF!?!?! did you just make that up lol? OMG no LOL!... WTF, only seen it a few times LOL! It was mispelled, too, WTF LOL... WTF, OMG it should have been "AFAICT" LOL. Obviously, you got the point though. - - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS! Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
Phelan Lore Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.03.29 20:17:00 - [12] Make rigs drop as loot from player ships. -
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.03.29 20:17:00 - [13] Originally by: Xori Ruscuv rig prices are a bad thing .. out of reach for new players .. discourages new players Couldn't the same be said about T2 items (in addition to ISK, they require huge skills, and are more mandatory than rigs), and pretty much about all ownage ships (like capitals)? So, are you in effect arguing that pretty much all ships and fitting options should have very accessable cost (and low skill requirements)? Or could you just be making up excuses without much thinking? IMHO, rigs are mostly nice, except: - Some of the rigs are far too powerful (especially compared to price) - They increase PvP ability, without increasing opponent's loot value (compare to having your enemy having uber officer fitted ship, and your joy if finally managing to kill him) So, would have somewhat similar improvement suggestions as the OP: - CCP should check that what are the most popular rigs, and nerf those - Make rigs drop as loot (that is when you salvage you get 50% of salvage materials used on that ship) The latter option should eventually drop the price of some rigs a bit. -Lasse
Xori Ruscuv Takin' a break	Posted - 2007.03.29 20:25:00 - [14] Originally by: Phelan Lore Make rigs drop as loot from player ships. Dude that would KICK ASS >:D - - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS! Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.03.29 20:29:00 - [15] Rigs cost a good amount - Makes rigging ships for pvp expensive but worth it. And means that not EVERYONE is rigged. I like it how it is.
Xori Ruscuv Takin' a break	Posted - 2007.03.29 20:30:00 - [16] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 29/03/2007 20:28:02 Originally by: Heikki Couldn't the same be said about T2 items No. T2 items aren't anywhere near as expensive as rigs (with a few exceptions) - and in case you hadn't noticed, CCP is doing something about the T2 system. Besides - saying "something else is broken so it is ok that this is broken" is a ** poor argument. Quote: they require huge skills, and are more mandatory than rigs), How do you figure? I wouldn't say one is MORE or LESS mandatory than another... they are both mandatory (T2 just got there first). Quote: and pretty much about all ownage ships (like capitals)? These are ships with VERY special purposes. Not 'general purpose' ships like battleships, etc. Quote: - Some of the rigs are far too powerful (especially compared to price) Yup. Originally by:** Waxau Rigs cost a good amount - Makes rigging ships for pvp expensive but worth it. And means that not EVERYONE is rigged. I like it how it is. Of course you do. You are a 2 year player who flies Caldari on your main. You have a good sec status. This makes me think that you aren't hard up for money, and don't need a second account to manage. It also means that there is one more HUGE advantage you have - never having to worry about whether that noob's ship over there has any rigs in it. - - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS! Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
Trisae	Posted - 2007.03.29 20:30:00 - [17] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Easiest way to reduce the cost of rigs is to salvage. And tell all those other players that don't because "its not worth the time" to do so. Everytime someone says "its not worth the time to salvage, I can just buy the rigs" someone raises their prices No intervention or game mechanic changes are needed. The prices are 100% the players' fault. Umm, no. You're stupid. The prices are dependant on how long it takes to salvage the parts needed to build the rig, which is mostly up to CCP. Unless you expect people to just build rigs regardless of how cost of effective salvaging is?
Nyana	Posted - 2007.03.29 20:31:00 - [18] Everybody shouldn't have rigs. Some are too expensive, I agree that those should go down in price. 10-17 million is perfectly acceptable, though. Newbies can't afford rigs, that's no good argument. Can they afford fully T2/faction fitted ships? No?
Xori Ruscuv Takin' a break	Posted - 2007.03.29 20:35:00 - [19] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 29/03/2007 20:32:59 Originally by: Nyana Everybody shouldn't have rigs. Some are too expensive, I agree that those should go down in price. 10-17 million is perfectly acceptable, though. Yes, 10-ish million would be acceptable. Most rigs (useful in pvp) are nowhere near this, however. Quote: Newbies can't afford rigs, that's no good argument. Can they afford fully T2/faction fitted ships? No? Perhaps I'm not explaining this clearly. T2, yes. Because they HAVE to. Rigs are becoming that way. Faction is actually rare enough to where if you run into someone with a faction fit, you're unlucky. If you gank them, you're lucky. There is a "critical mass" where, when something is used enough, everyone must use it in order to compete. T2 reached that "critical mass" a long time ago. Rigs are about to reach that critical mass - if they haven't already. (I personally believe they have, but only have minimal and circumstantial evidence by which to make that declaration.) The difference is: T2 isn't near as expensive as rigs. T2 market is also being fixed. T2 being 'broken' is a poor excuse for the state of rigs. - - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS! Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
Trisae	Posted - 2007.03.29 20:37:00 - [20] Edited by: Trisae on 29/03/2007 20:33:55 Originally by: Heikki Originally by: Xori Ruscuv rig prices are a bad thing .. out of reach for new players .. discourages new players Couldn't the same be said about T2 items (in addition to ISK, they require huge skills, and are more mandatory than rigs), and pretty much about all ownage ships (like capitals)? Which is exactly why CCP boosted invention, so T2 would be more accessible. Capital ships were never designed to be everyday items, they were designed for corps and alliances to use in their big wars. I thought rigs were designed for most to use...perhaps I was wrong.
Sikozu Prioris	Posted - 2007.03.29 20:37:00 - [21] The main expense with rigs is caused only be a few expensive componets overall, with only one of the three needed to build a rig being at a high price. This is of course to do with a limited drop rate and supply. This is what I tell everyone who complains.... 1- TRAIN PE TO LEVEL 4 2- BUY THE RIG BPO THEY ARE SO DARN CHEEP 3- SET UP BUY ORDERS FOR THE MATERIALS YOU NEED 4- WELL DONE YOU'VE JUST MADE RIGS CHEEPER THAN MARKET COST Seriously PE to lv4 takes no time at all, the cost of the rig bpo is easily covered in most cases by the profit margin you ddnt pay to the person selling on the market. Just dont buy components straight from sell orders in most cases, a bit a patience and you get things alot cheeper. And just to let you know I make rigs at a nice profit by selling, save loads on the ones I use myself and dont salvage at all. Prices are still high but you dont make someone else richer.
Xori Ruscuv Takin' a break	Posted - 2007.03.29 20:49:00 - [22] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 29/03/2007 20:53:33 Originally by: Sikozu Prioris 3- SET UP BUY ORDERS FOR THE MATERIALS YOU NEED I think that is where the probelm is, however. Component prices are way out of whack. Will this come down significantly? I'm thinking not. Reason being: salvage is already rather cheap when you consider the amount of time required to produce it. Originally by: Trisae I thought rigs were designed for most to use...perhaps I was wrong. You are not wrong. This was the claim of at least one dev. However, some very old and very rich players seem to miss this point. I'm not that old, but I'm not that poor, either. I can afford rigs. That doesn't mean that I think it is good for balance. It isn't. Of course we have inevitable posts from the players who say "HAHAHA LULZ NOOB", or "its fine leave it", with little thought at all. I wouldn't mind if someone actually supported their opinion. Let me review this again: - Some items weren't meant to be accessible, they were meant to be special purpose (capitals for example). - Some items were meant to be accessible but the system failed. (T2 for example.) That's why T2 is being revamped. - Rigs aren't so different from T2. They are intended to be general purpose (as evidenced by the cheap and plentiful BPOs and comments from the devs). Yet they are a HUGE advantage (often overpowered) which few are able to afford due to poor implementation. - - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS! Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.03.29 21:18:00 - [23] Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Originally by: Waxau Rigs cost a good amount - Makes rigging ships for pvp expensive but worth it. And means that not EVERYONE is rigged. I like it how it is. Of course you do. You are a 2 year player who flies Caldari on your main. You have a good sec status. This makes me think that you aren't hard up for money, and don't need a second account to manage. It also means that there is one more HUGE advantage you have - never having to worry about whether that noob's ship over there has any rigs in it. Huh? I pvp in 0.0, fly every ship from AF, to capital ships....My good sec status is from ratting, not missions either. Infact i dont even have a lv1 agent for some reason. And no i dont need a second account to manage. No one does. My second account is for general corp production. My main (Wax) is used for pvp, ratting, and literally, everything. I dont have t2 bpo, or any form of profitable production or trading. All my isk is from pvp and ratting. So if you're trying to make out like im some lucky sod with tonnes of cash...then you're wrong. Im just like every other player in game - If not worse off than many. The only difference is that i know the difference rigs make, and they should NOT be any cheaper - If they get any cheaper, you'll see every ship in game rigged, and that just makes eve that much more boring. Rigs were made to make pvp in eve more varied - And it wont be varied if rigs become cheap, and everyone fits CCC rigs. The prices dictate what rigs are picked, as much as how useful they are. And any cheaper, and you'll lose that variety. And that makes eve that much more boring.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.03.29 21:22:00 - [24] Chance based salvaging... Why? That's my main beef. I have salvaging at level 4, and fully salvaging rigged out destroyer that gets the job done pretty quick. But I still see, "your salvaging attempt failed blah blah" a bit too much. Anyway, the market needs to be flooded with waaaay too many components for prices to drop to the level some of you are wanting. So that means: - More people start salvaging - CCP ups the yield amounts from each salvage - CCP lowers failure rate or speeds up salvaging somehow - CCP lowers amounts needed to build each rig - CCP rebalances amounts of each component so there isn't a few needed for so many different rigs At least one or two of the above. Hmm. Most of that is in CCP's hands. Except for one I didn't mention yet... - More people start selling their components instead of hording and building rigs themselves I think that's a very likely scenario. I know I've yet to buy a rig for myself. At those prices? Bump that! I'll just build it myself. ------------------- Say What?
Wayward Hooligan Gallente SniggWaffe Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.03.29 21:23:00 - [25] I'd have to agree with a few people on here. t1 rigs at 10 - 15 mil a pop would be acceptable. Increase amount of salvage from salvaging a wreck. Decrease amount of salvage necessary to produce rig xyz. Rigs should have a chance to drop in wrecks after a pvp kill just like anything else. Rigs shouldn't be an elite item that are only fitted on BS and t2 ships. That being said they are too new for CCP to have had much chance to balance them. SCRAP WALKING IN THE STATIONS AND FIX BROKEN FEATURES. YARRR!!!
Christopher Dalran Gallente Deadly Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.29 21:24:00 - [26] Edited by: Christopher Dalran on 29/03/2007 21:22:10 Find an alliance and go out to 0.0, then just follow all the ratters around and salvage their wrecks. Make sure you ask first but 99.9% of the ratters cant be bothered to salvage (or in many cases even loot) their wrecks because it slows them down in terms of finding the next 2mill or faction spawn (which might get destroyed by someone else why they salvage). I think i would get enough to build a new rig every 15 to 20 minutes doing that, the trick was just to do ANYTHING else why the ratters have a chance to pile up alot of wrecks and then fly out there and gettem all quick. Unfortunatly you cant use a tractor beam (nobody will gang with you because bounties get split then). Also note that missions spawns drop signifigantly less salvage than 0.0 rats, you can collect quite a large stock of salvage picking up after others. ------------------------------- C.D's Formula for success ------------------------------- Credit Card = Game Time Card Gametime Card = ISK Therefore Credit Card = ISK.
Fallaize	Posted - 2007.03.29 21:25:00 - [27] I myself build Rigs and I can tell you for fact that on the most Rigs The Profit Margins are anywhere between 10 - 20%. This profit margin is only there if you have a ME22 BPO, Top end Production Efficiency skills and if you are using a POS manufacturing Facility which Further reduces the Material Costs. Here is an example for a Cap Control Circuit on an Unresearched BPO. (Assume top Production Efficiency and Basic Manufacturing Facilities) 83 Burnt Logic Circuits @ 86K = 7,138,000 22 Melted Cap Consoles @ 532K = 11,704,000 72 Tripped Power Circuits @ 52K = 3,744,000 Total Build Cost = 22,586,000 Now looking on Jita today the Lowest Price for a Cap Control Circuit is 22,700,00. This is a Profit of 114,000 or .5% (yes that is half a Percent). I would say this number is accurate to within 5% as it is possible to get cheaper salvage in other regions but it requires shopping around and alot of Jumps. The Prices for the salvage is the best Buy order prices in Jita today. In order to see these prices to come down salvage must become cheaper and in order for that to happen More needs to be dropped as if the price of salvage drops with the current salvage drop rate people who salvage will stop doing so because it will be more profitable to just grind the missions. In some cases (I grind missions for my salvage as well as buy it off market) it is actually more profitable to sell salvage to buy orders as the margins are so tight on the rigs themselves now that it does not make much difference.
Xori Ruscuv Takin' a break	Posted - 2007.03.29 21:25:00 - [28] Originally by: Christopher Dalran Also note that missions spawns drop signifigantly less salvage than 0.0 rats, you can collect quite a large stock of salvage picking up after others. Hmm, interesting. I didn't know. - - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS! Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
Xori Ruscuv Takin' a break	Posted - 2007.03.29 21:28:00 - [29] Originally by: Waxau The prices dictate what rigs are picked, as much as how useful they are. And any cheaper, and you'll lose that variety. And that makes eve that much more boring. Honestly only a few rigs are useful anyway, man. In any system, there will be cookie cutters. The casting of rigs as a way to break the cookie cutters is complete rubbish. There will ALWAYS be a "best". I don't think it is price that is making them unique... it is just making PVP slower and more blobby. - Slower becuase you have to grind more to manage - More blobby because spending more time grinding = being ever more scared to lose expensive **. (I mean, lets be honest - "only fly what you can afford to lose" ended a long time ago, ESPECIALLY in alliance warfare) - - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS! Originally by:** nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
Xori Ruscuv Takin' a break	Posted - 2007.03.29 21:31:00 - [30] Originally by: Wayward Hooligan I'd have to agree with a few people on here. t1 rigs at 10 - 15 mil a pop would be acceptable. Increase amount of salvage from salvaging a wreck. Decrease amount of salvage necessary to produce rig xyz. Rigs should have a chance to drop in wrecks after a pvp kill just like anything else. Rigs shouldn't be an elite item that are only fitted on BS and t2 ships. That being said they are too new for CCP to have had much chance to balance them. SCRAP WALKING IN THE STATIONS AND FIX BROKEN FEATURES. o/ Wayward! Agreed on all points. Especially the last one. - - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS! Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.03.29 21:45:00 - [31] Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Originally by: Waxau The prices dictate what rigs are picked, as much as how useful they are. And any cheaper, and you'll lose that variety. And that makes eve that much more boring. Honestly only a few rigs are useful anyway, man. In any system, there will be cookie cutters. The casting of rigs as a way to break the cookie cutters is complete rubbish. There will ALWAYS be a "best". I personally think you're wrong there. We all see nublets who fit bad setups due to lack of knowledge. We often see NPC setups without CCC rigs - For example a nighthawk with a passive tank for lv 4's wont have CCC rigs. It'll have resistance rigs, or hp rigs etc. But if that person were to pvp in that ship, he'd have to use those rigs. That could dictate a fight. If you see someone pvping in a ship with resistance mods - MAYBE he didnt realise how much better CCC rigs are - or maybe he does, or prefers using resistance ones. Simple fact is, just because one stands out from the rest, doesnt mean it will always be fitted. And as CCP have learnt...changing just the slightest thing, can have drastic concequences. Take the inertia boost, followed by the unforseen nano boost. Then take the nano nerf, followed by the unforseen blockade runner nerf. Rigs are fine. t2 are too pricy....but rigs in general arent something to be complained about
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.03.29 21:59:00 - [32] Ok, it is clear that most of the people in this thread have little or no market experience. They just have the "I want to buy rigs cheaper" idea in common. The reason prices are where they are is because this is the point at which demand for rigs equals the supply of rigs. If there was more demand then the price would rise, if there was more supply then the price would drop. So, you want prices to drop... lets see what is involved to make this happen. Prices of rigs are based on prices of salvage materials. Salvage material supply is based on the amount of people willing to salvage. People need to feel that their time is being spent wisely and salvaging takes extra time. If salvage materials drop in price then salvaging is worth less ISK. Thus there is a point where people don't feel it is worth their time to salvage... so they stop salvaging. This continues to happen until the supply of salvage materials drops to the point that demand equals supply at a certain price point. IMO it would be foolish to alter drop rates again. I would tweak the materials used to create rigs... lowering them 25% or so to see what impact it had. But even this I think is un-needed. Prices are just fine where they are imo. Most rigs cost between 15-20 mil, the only ones that cost more are the ultra popular ones. Rigs are still coming down in price as well. Slowly... but they are coming down. Just give it all more time and they will hit the 10 mil price point eventually I think. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
bigswedeloverboy	Posted - 2007.03.29 22:00:00 - [33] I disagree that rigs are too expensive. I've been in the game for about five months now, and rigs have certainly been attainable for the past several months to this semi-casual lone mission runner type. I run lvl 4s, I loot and salvage BS as a rule, particularly those dropping the melted capacitor consoles. This enables me to make my own rigs 90% of the time. Typically I have enough salvage saved up that I can pop out a few new rigs whenever my ship is destroyed, so there isn't much of a replacement cost to speak of. I agree with the people in this thread who stated rigs shouldn't be a complete freebie early on in the game; rather I like how you have to put in some time in order to see the benefit that rigs provide. The one argument I partially agree with is the relatively lack of balance when it comes to equipping smaller ships with rigs. Maybe the answer to this would be various versions of each rig, with smaller material requirements. Let's say the current rigs would be the baseline, used for battleship size vessels. Rigs for cruisers/BCs would require half of the components of the BS rigs, while frigs/destroyers would require 1/4th the components of of the BS rigs. Swede
Aleria Angelis Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.03.29 22:08:00 - [34] Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Rigs are too expensive Your not putting the cost into perspective, most people will agree that installing a rig in anything smaller than BS is isnt worth it. You have to take into account the cost of the ship your fitting it onto, EG: Frigate: Piontless Cruiser: still not worth the cost BS: worth it Capital ship: Bargain This is the way it was meant to be, not everyones supposed to be flying around rigged out their ass. You argue that rigs are becoming mandatory for success, well if this is your concern then lowering the price will only worsen the problem. Rig slots shouldnt be viewed as extra med or low slots which have to filled every time you undock. GEPT opens its doors!
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.29 22:09:00 - [35] Originally by: Xori Ruscuv I disagree. There is a certain value on a person's time. The current salvage prices are actually NOT exorbitant based on the amount of time required to gather such salvage. True, someone's time is valuable. To me its more than worth it to salvage. Example (true story): I have a salvage ship. Standard T1 destroyer, 4 salvagers, 2 tractors. No rigs, no T2 equipment on it. I can salvage ANY level 3 mission I have run in about 20 minutes with it, barring an exceptionally good loot drop which requires me to make a trip with the badger. Not doing level 4s yet, so I can't vouch for them. In the last 2 weeks I have averaged ~1 mission a night do to many factors. In those 2 weeks I have: Built a Shield Purger rig, collected enough parts to build a Armor Resist rig for another character, am 1/2 way to a second Shield Purger rig. I also have about 1/4 of the parts needed for another Armor Resist rig. Incidently, I refuse to buy a rig because I think the prices they are asking are ridiculous. I don't view my time as incredibly valueable or I wouldn't be playing EvE to begin with. I am a casual player, doing casual things with friends. But if I can come up with the above, what can a more serious mission runner do? I say: Worth it. <-----------> Keiron: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427556&page=2 PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to the entire player base
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.03.29 22:38:00 - [36] Originally by: Aleria Angelis Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Rigs are too expensive Your not putting the cost into perspective, most people will agree that installing a rig in anything smaller than BS is isnt worth it. You have to take into account the cost of the ship your fitting it onto, EG: Frigate: Piontless Cruiser: still not worth the cost BS: worth it Capital ship: Bargain This is the way it was meant to be, not everyones supposed to be flying around rigged out their ass. You argue that rigs are becoming mandatory for success, well if this is your concern then lowering the price will only worsen the problem. Rig slots shouldnt be viewed as extra med or low slots which have to filled every time you undock. I think you have it backwards. Why do t1 frigs have rig slots? Maybe because it was never intended that rigs cost so much? T1 cruisers? You imply that CCP intented for these never to be used? Seems like a strange thing to assume to me. Your view only makes sense because rigs happen to cost what they do. Doesn't mean they cost anywhere close to what CCP intended. ------------------- Say What?
Seino Inovske	Posted - 2007.03.29 22:56:00 - [37] I'm going to offer a slightly different take on the subject. The single greatest reason that (some) rigs are very expensive is because most rigs suck. All gunnery rigs are next to useless, with half-a-damage-mod benefits in exchange for requiring fitting an RCU. Actually that's worse than useless, that's actually detrimental. Some shield and a few armor rigs are somewhat useful. Cargo rigs kick ass. CCC are insanely good. So what happens? Melted cap consoles and alloyed trit bars are very expensive, because of huge demand for CCC and cargo rigs, while smashed trigger units are worth virtually nothing because no one in their right mind is going to fit a projo rig. Half the salvage in my hangar is worthless, actually. And because half is worthless, the other half costs twice as much as it otherwise would. Because as has already been stated, the market value of rigs is directly linked to how long it takes to salvage. If the crap rigs were worth using, then the value of the crap salvage would rise, which would drop the value of the melted cap consoles (as would the decreased demand for CCC if rig slots were filled with other things). Rigs, on the whole, are very poorly balanced from one group to the next. That's the biggest problem.
Elain Reverse Caldari Shokei	Posted - 2007.03.29 23:03:00 - [38] Originally by: Sikozu Prioris The main expense with rigs is caused only be a few expensive componets overall, with only one of the three needed to build a rig being at a high price. This is of course to do with a limited drop rate and supply. This is what I tell everyone who complains.... 1- TRAIN PE TO LEVEL 4 2- BUY THE RIG BPO THEY ARE SO DARN CHEEP 3- SET UP BUY ORDERS FOR THE MATERIALS YOU NEED 4- WELL DONE YOU'VE JUST MADE RIGS CHEEPER THAN MARKET COST Seriously PE to lv4 takes no time at all, the cost of the rig bpo is easily covered in most cases by the profit margin you ddnt pay to the person selling on the market. Just dont buy components straight from sell orders in most cases, a bit a patience and you get things alot cheeper. And just to let you know I make rigs at a nice profit by selling, save loads on the ones I use myself and dont salvage at all. Prices are still high but you dont make someone else richer. This not allways corect for some T2 rigs is damn hard to get salvages and they price is usualy more then you can buy build rig at all. for example I could get T2 CCC 4run BPC cheap, but i didnt because i couldnt find enough salvages for even one of them and i was looking good. Anyway someon know where are droping T2 salvages ? I didnt get one in my 3 months salvaging.
Aleria Angelis Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.03.29 23:09:00 - [39] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Originally by: Aleria Angelis Your not putting the cost into perspective, most people will agree that installing a rig in anything smaller than BS is isnt worth it. You have to take into account the cost of the ship your fitting it onto, EG: Frigate: Piontless Cruiser: still not worth the cost BS: worth it Capital ship: Bargain This is the way it was meant to be, not everyones supposed to be flying around rigged out their ass. You argue that rigs are becoming mandatory for success, well if this is your concern then lowering the price will only worsen the problem. Rig slots shouldnt be viewed as extra med or low slots which have to filled every time you undock. I think you have it backwards. Why do t1 frigs have rig slots? Maybe because it was never intended that rigs cost so much? T1 cruisers? You imply that CCP intented for these never to be used? Seems like a strange thing to assume to me. Your view only makes sense because rigs happen to cost what they do. Doesn't mean they cost anywhere close to what CCP intended. You miss my point, common sense would dictate that fitting a Tec2 cap recharger on a tec1 frigate is a completely pointless investment. Does this mean we need to lower the cost of Tec2 cap rechargers? No because like Riggs they are a luxury product, like everything else you pay for that precious bonus to your ship. Just because CCP give you the option to fit a particular item dosnt mean they intended for it to be a mandatory expectation. GEPT opens its doors!
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2007.03.29 23:19:00 - [40] First of all I have only 2 BS rigged atm, and of them is for salvaging.. that means I have more frigs+BC rigged than BS.. So I def feel rigs are for smaller ships too (lovely faster scanning, faster interceptor speed, cloaking uses, BC with tanking rigs, dmg rigs on BC, t2 cruisers like em too).. I would love to see rigs drop in price , eventhough I have a lot of salvage standing by for building rigs.. I like the change from the last patch, wrecks which are full can still be salvaged.. I would love to see them change it so that my tractor is still locked on the can that drops.. So what would make this stuff easier? I would LOVE to see salvage drones.. that would make life a lot easier.. I would also finally like to see medium and large tractor beams .. everything helps :) And making the rigs cost less salvage is a great idea :) All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me.. Drone guide..
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.03.29 23:36:00 - [41] Originally by: Aleria Angelis You miss my point, common sense would dictate that fitting a Tec2 cap recharger on a tec1 frigate is a completely pointless investment. Does this mean we need to lower the cost of Tec2 cap rechargers? No because like Riggs they are a luxury product, like everything else you pay for that precious bonus to your ship. Just because CCP give you the option to fit a particular item dosnt mean they intended for it to be a mandatory expectation. Ok, well now I'm just going to be obstanant. "common sense would dictate that fitting a Tec2 cap recharger on a tec1 frigate is a completely pointless investment. Does this mean we need to lower the cost of Tec2 cap rechargers?" It also doesn't mean we leave the slot empty either. "No because like Riggs they are a luxury* product, like everything else you pay for that precious bonus to your ship." Would you still consider them a "luxury" item if the most expensive rig was 100k? You see our definition of what rigs are or aren't has been defined more by happenstance. If CCP hadn't pre-nerfed the drop rates, in fact if they had done just the opposite and flooded the market initially, rigs might* have been dirt cheap. And how we think of them now would have been quite different. I will admit that they are indeed how you describe them now, but I'm still not convinced that that was what CCP intended. ------------------- Say What?
Xori Ruscuv Takin' a break	Posted - 2007.03.29 23:38:00 - [42] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby In the last 2 weeks I have averaged ~1 mission a night do to many factors. In those 2 weeks I have: Built a Shield Purger rig, collected enough parts to build a Armor Resist rig for another character, am 1/2 way to a second Shield Purger rig. I also have about 1/4 of the parts needed for another Armor Resist rig. Incidently, I refuse to buy a rig because I think the prices they are asking are ridiculous. That's great, if all you want to do is run missions. However, there are those who basically have to grind to make money required to do other things in the game. - - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS! Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
Xori Ruscuv Takin' a break	Posted - 2007.03.29 23:41:00 - [43] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 29/03/2007 23:41:23 Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 29/03/2007 23:40:36 Originally by: Aleria Angelis Your not putting the cost into perspective, most people will agree that installing a rig in anything smaller than BS is isnt worth it. NICE circular argument. Hint: They are not worth it for smaller ships BECAUSE they are so expensive. Rigs were NOT intended to be restricted to battleships, t2 cruiser+ ships, and capitals. Quote: This is the way it was meant to be, not everyones supposed to be flying around rigged out their ass. Yes, they are. It has been made clear by the devs that they are meant to be "personal touches" on a ship. At this point, they are too expensive for anyone but the richest players to fit (for PVP). Quote: You argue that rigs are becoming mandatory for success, well if this is your concern then lowering the price will only worsen the problem. Where do you get this idea? Lowering the prices will make them affordable for anyone who flies a BC or BS into PVP. 10mil is reasonable. 40mil is not. Quote: Rig slots shouldnt be viewed as extra med or low slots which have to filled every time you undock. Any slot that can be used WILL become mandatory for success. Just like T2 has become mandatory for success. Just like so many skills have become mandatory for success. That is how PVP (by which I mean player ship vs player ship combat) works. And he gets it: Originally by: Roy Batty68 I think you have it backwards. Why do t1 frigs have rig slots? Maybe because it was never intended that rigs cost so much? T1 cruisers? You imply that CCP intented for these never to be used? Seems like a strange thing to assume to me. Your view only makes sense because rigs happen to cost what they do. Doesn't mean they cost anywhere close to what CCP intended. Yes siree. He gets it. Originally by: Seino Inovske Rigs, on the whole, are very poorly balanced from one group to the next. That's the biggest problem. Yup. That's why I mentioned rebalancing rigs. - - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS! Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
Xori Ruscuv Takin' a break	Posted - 2007.03.29 23:47:00 - [44] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 29/03/2007 23:43:33 Originally by: Aleria Angelis You miss my point, common sense would dictate that fitting a Tec2 cap recharger on a tec1 frigate is a completely pointless investment. Does this mean we need to lower the cost of Tec2 cap rechargers? No because like Riggs they are a luxury product, like everything else you pay for that precious bonus to your ship. Just because CCP give you the option to fit a particular item dosnt mean they intended for it to be a mandatory expectation. If something is available, it becomes mandatory in PVP. That's just how PVP works. Rigs are NOT a luxury product. CCP does not feel this way about rigs - the same way they don't feel this way about T2. (Once again, I rever to Oveur's interview on eve-tv.) - - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS! Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
Larkonis Trassler Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.29 23:49:00 - [45] CCP did increase the drop rate of rig components. The problem is noone is going out and salvaging... All the mission ho's in Empire care about is LPs and bounties and many 0.0 corps (and indeed a lot of empire corps) produce their own rigs internally from a bank that corp members add to. So if you want cheap rigs get off your bike and do some salvaging! ------------ Request for Privateer Sticky! Keep the forums clean!
Xori Ruscuv Takin' a break	Posted - 2007.03.29 23:50:00 - [46] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 29/03/2007 23:49:12 Originally by: Larkonis Trassler CCP did increase the drop rate of rig components. The problem is noone is going out and salvaging... All the mission ho's in Empire care about is LPs and bounties and many 0.0 corps (and indeed a lot of empire corps) produce their own rigs internally from a bank that corp members add to. So if you want cheap rigs get off your bike and do some salvaging! Yeah that's a big problem... and why I salvage with my alt. The trouble is that my alt funds my main for PVP (wardecs or piracy primarily). Missions make crap for salvage, really. Plus, it just so happens that where my alt does missions, I don't get many of the rigs that my main needs :< Now if I could actually fund my main with PVP, that would be great. But when it comes down to it, loot dropped isn't valuable enough. Ships with better loot end up with everything top notch (ie. rigs too). Thus, either rigs become mandatory - or blobbing does. - - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS! Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits Fatal Persuasion	Posted - 2007.03.29 23:51:00 - [47] What would help I think is the ability to scan down wrecks. It would have to be difficult as they are numerous and would make pirates' (like me) job too easy if they could be scanned while the mission is still current, but currently there's not really a way a salvage corp can exist without running its own missions or having very good trust with someone who does. Being able to scan down and salvage the hundreds of wrecks left by those grinding standings or otherwise unable/unwilling to salavage their own mission wrecks would really open up salvage as a nouveau-mining profession as opposed to something people do to supplement their loot sales. _____________________________________________
Xori Ruscuv Takin' a break	Posted - 2007.03.29 23:54:00 - [48] Originally by: SN3263827 Being able to scan down and salvage the hundreds of wrecks left by those grinding standings or otherwise unable/unwilling to salavage their own mission wrecks would really open up salvage as a nouveau-mining profession as opposed to something people do to supplement their loot sales. Agreed. I posted this idea way back right after Kali was released. - - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS! Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
Elain Reverse Caldari Shokei	Posted - 2007.03.30 00:13:00 - [49] Originally by: Larkonis Trassler CCP did increase the drop rate of rig components. The problem is noone is going out and salvaging... All the mission ho's in Empire care about is LPs and bounties and many 0.0 corps (and indeed a lot of empire corps) produce their own rigs internally from a bank that corp members add to. So if you want cheap rigs get off your bike and do some salvaging! Actualy most ppl in my corp do salvage if have time. Other problem is some missions are too long and most of wrecks are gone before you finish mission, especiely L4s. I already make point before saying CCP did make some changes to missions, so they took longer then before, they add salvaging whitch add even more time to mission and time after whitch wrecks disapear didnt changed. It is possible to salvage in midle of missions, but it cost precious 2 highs and make mission much longer then using specialized salvager. Other choice is salvaging after you clear whole room or 2, but its pain in missions where is many rooms and gates too far. For me price of T1 rigs is not bad(10-30m is ok), but T2 is way to overpriced as 400m+ for some rigs, commeon its more then for most realy good faction gear.
Elain Reverse Caldari Shokei	Posted - 2007.03.30 00:15:00 - [50] Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Originally by: SN3263827 Being able to scan down and salvage the hundreds of wrecks left by those grinding standings or otherwise unable/unwilling to salavage their own mission wrecks would really open up salvage as a nouveau-mining profession as opposed to something people do to supplement their loot sales. Agreed. I posted this idea way back right after Kali was released. Good idea, but make them unable to scan in deadspaces as it will make otherway pirates to scan you in midle of mission.
Xori Ruscuv Takin' a break	Posted - 2007.03.30 00:21:00 - [51] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 30/03/2007 00:19:22 Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 30/03/2007 00:18:36 Originally by: Elain Reverse Good idea, but make them unable to scan in deadspaces as it will make otherway pirates to scan you in midle of mission. Or maybe just do flagging with them? There are a good deal of missions that aren't in deadspace, so that makes those cans "insecure" for a good many missions. EDIT: Actually... you can't tractor someone else's wrecks anyway... you have to be in the same corp or gang. So, it would be very difficult for other people to salvage, because they would have to fly to within 5000m of each wreck. - - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS! Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2007.03.30 00:38:00 - [52] Rigs cheap: thousands of people experimenting with rigs, modules and ship combo's. Unbalanced setups almost instantly discovered and spread throughout the server. CCP on overtime to fix things. Rigs expensive: less people experiment, CCP has time to balance the rigs without having to take too drastic steps (nerfs) then take steps to lower the price to where they want it. One of the rules of good MMO design/management, put new items in in a weaker, slower state. Observe the effects then adjust as needed. People love stuff buffed up but hate nerfs. My impression from all the posts and blogs about it was that rigs were supposed to be dirt cheap and available to everyone. My current feeling is that CCP is just taking a good time to balance them and then fix the price. It's a whole new system, they have to be careful.
super bomberman	Posted - 2007.03.30 00:47:00 - [53] atm if u salvage the parts yourself there is no real cost to a rig (other than the 700somthing k for the bpo), which means all the rigs on market cost what they cost because thats what the salvager thinks his time is worth (- a bit for market compatition and such), if the prices of rigs is forced down whos gona salvage a mission to sell a rig for a couple of mill. That being said it mite still be worth it if drop rates are increased as you could build more rigs from the salvage you get, but on the hole people want to get as much isk from what they sell as possible, so the prices mite drop a bit but they will never get down to a point where its worth riggin a t1 frig.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.03.30 01:12:00 - [54] Rigs are not very expensive anymore. The only ones that are expensive are Cap and Cargo rigs because everyone and their brother wants them. This is mainly because all the other (non shield) rigs SUCK SUCK SUCK. Almost every weapon rig sucks. Over half of the shield rigs suck. Some people don't realize just how bad lots of rigs they use suck. Resistance rigs are absolutely HORRID and people seem to like them. Missile dmg rigs suck worse and people still buy a lot. 75% of the rigs could easily be made either slightly better or a LOT better. Then we could see where prices go. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Kaylee Zara	Posted - 2007.03.30 01:17:00 - [55] They're supposed to be "Implants for ships". So no you aren't supposed to be able to pull them out as you feel and chuck in a new one every five seconds. They're supposed to be a high end component to add a little extra. Not something everyone treats like t1 ammo.
Erala Strae	Posted - 2007.03.30 02:34:00 - [56] im gonna go ahead and put it out there. rigs cost a lot. so. build an expensive one (or 10) and buy the ones you need! "OMG! SALVAGERS ARE SOO MUCH MONEY HELP!!!" its expensive, but at the same time it doesnt take much to build your own rigs.
J Valkor Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.03.30 02:49:00 - [57] The price of rigs (the most useful one) has plummeted to where you can find most of them for under 20 million. What are you people complaining about now?
Lamias	Posted - 2007.03.30 03:03:00 - [58] WARNING: Your whine thread has inspired flaming!! Here is a web site for you: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/index.xml You can become an UBER NOOB in like three weeks.
heheheh Singularity.	Posted - 2007.03.30 03:09:00 - [59] Edited by: heheheh on 30/03/2007 03:08:23 Edited by: heheheh on 30/03/2007 03:05:56 how are rigs too expensive when you can salvage the parts yourself while killing stuff wasting absolutly no time, therefor costing you NOTHING? saying that, a bit of an increase in drop rates wouldnt be a bad thing.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.30 03:19:00 - [60] Originally by: heheheh Edited by: heheheh on 30/03/2007 03:08:23 Edited by: heheheh on 30/03/2007 03:05:56 how are rigs too expensive when you can salvage the parts yourself while killing stuff wasting absolutly no time, therefor costing you NOTHING? saying that, a bit of an increase in drop rates wouldnt be a bad thing. Time is nothing? ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.03.30 03:29:00 - [61] some people should learn this... time is money! so nothing is free! if you make something and you could sell it for XXX millons and you use it it is costing you that millions too It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.03.30 04:37:00 - [62] I love how many people think something is free if you do it yourself. At least someone pointed out the fact that an item costs just as much to you if you do it yourself or if you buy it. Why? Because you can sell it for that amount if you choose... thus the cost is the same no matter how you get the item. Same goes for minerals... you can always sell them on the market, so if you arn't making at least that much money then you are LOSING money. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Skylar Keenan Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.03.30 05:19:00 - [63] Build the ** ** bloody things yourself. How hard can it be ? I talked my kid brother into starting EVE about 3 weeks ago and he's already built a few - I see absolutely no reason to alter anything. It's true that he's currently better off selling the things to buy other stuff than fitting them, but that's only because the richer part of the players have no qualms about buying 100m worth of rigs. This has nothing to do with broken game mechanics. Works as intended - move along. ----------------------------------------------- New sig coming SoonÖ
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.03.30 06:09:00 - [64] This has nothing to do with building them yourself/having others build them. The markup on rigs is quite low in most cases. It's not a major difference. In some cases building with an unresearched rig bpo will cost you more than the cost of the rig on the market. Building yourself is not a big cost saver in anything you do except possibly ammo. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Starraker	Posted - 2007.03.30 08:38:00 - [65] What I would really like to see are rigs that are downgraded. Rigs that give something like a 5% bonus. CCP should look at the salvage components prices now, and make them require like 1-2 mill isk to build. And keep the slightly overpowered current rigs at the same price they are now. This means it is also viable to rig your T1 frigate/cruiser (Yay!). -Starraker
Seriya Caldari Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.30 09:13:00 - [66] I have no problem with the cost of t1 rigs. T2 rig prices are perhaps another issue.
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.03.30 09:18:00 - [67] Mostly our fault that rigs in general are the price they are. Only thing CCP can really do is upping the drop rate of the parts and/or lower the build cost of the rigs slightly.
Mymh Heretache	Posted - 2007.03.30 09:51:00 - [68] Salvaging is extremely slow. To make it effective you need to salvage from missions, and you should have salvaging rigs and decent skill in it. Thus the time consumed to get the mats to build the rigs = alot. Noone want to work for free. Personally I never ever run missions and after a couple of days trying salvaging vs non-salvaging while ratting I found the income/hour (including loot/refined stuff) was alot faster when not salvaging. At the end of the day I rather pay 3x 30mil for those rigs rather than spending alot of time and frustration and skillpoints that is more or less useless for non-missionrunners on something else. IF there is some problem, it's not the price/value on these items. It's the salvaging that is way to inefficient, and that ups the price. Either we live with it and accept it (which I've done) or the salvaging gets alot more effecient already from the start, making it viable also for non-mission runners to salvage. Can't say I care enough to bother but it's a bit sad yes that I just ignore the rigslots on almost all my ships, only doing it on the 'important' ones.
EscapeArtist Caldari Deviance Inc	Posted - 2007.03.30 10:14:00 - [69] Originally by: AKULA UrQuan Mostly our fault that rigs in general are the price they are. Only thing CCP can really do is upping the drop rate of the parts and/or lower the build cost of the rigs slightly. Give that man a prize. On a serious note, doesn't it frustrate anyone else that there is never any feedback from CCP on areas such as game play modifications... All we get is: Patch note: XYZ are being changed. ------ I am Legend
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.30 11:43:00 - [70] Originally by: EscapeArtist Originally by: AKULA UrQuan Mostly our fault that rigs in general are the price they are. Only thing CCP can really do is upping the drop rate of the parts and/or lower the build cost of the rigs slightly. Give that man a prize. On a serious note, doesn't it frustrate anyone else that there is never any feedback from CCP on areas such as game play modifications... All we get is: Patch note: XYZ are being changed. Why give that man a prize? He is wrong. CCPs has complete control over the supply of rigs and since demand is not so high as to drive prices up[as evidenced by low margins], and quantity of rigs bought and sold is not extraordinary, then any pricing problems away from the intended quantity or price[whichever is intended] are only able to be fixed on the supply side, by either reducing the price[build materials of rigs] or increasing the supply of rigs[drop rate] ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Knoppaz Rens Nursing Home	Posted - 2007.03.30 11:43:00 - [71] Not sure if this was said already (had no time to read everything yet), but imho there are not enough rigs of different quality available. It should be like other modules (t1, various named, t2) where t1 only provides a minor bonus (far less than it's now). No one in his right mind will ever put a 10+ million isk item on his rifter, let alone 3 of them, so what's the point of those slots? Same goes for cruisers or other "cheap" T1 ships. Some will say it's good this way, but again.. why do they have those slots then? ..my 2 isk.
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.03.30 12:37:00 - [72] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: EscapeArtist Originally by: AKULA UrQuan Mostly our fault that rigs in general are the price they are. Only thing CCP can really do is upping the drop rate of the parts and/or lower the build cost of the rigs slightly. Give that man a prize. On a serious note, doesn't it frustrate anyone else that there is never any feedback from CCP on areas such as game play modifications... All we get is: Patch note: XYZ are being changed. Why give that man a prize? He is wrong. CCPs has complete control over the supply of rigs and since demand is not so high as to drive prices up[as evidenced by low margins], and quantity of rigs bought and sold is not extraordinary, then any pricing problems away from the intended quantity or price[whichever is intended] are only able to be fixed on the supply side, by either reducing the price[build materials of rigs] or increasing the supply of rigs[drop rate] I'm wrong and you turn around and say the exact same thing I did? Anyway, this wouldn't be so much of a problem if us players bothered to salvage the wrecks in the first place. Belive it or not, only a fraction of the wrecks in the game get salvaged. for example, just go to any popular mission system and run your scanners to see the vast quanity of wrecks that go to waste. Out in 0.0 the story is pretty much the same except in this case the wrecks are destroyed by the ratter via drones before he moves onto the next belt.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.30 12:42:00 - [73] Originally by: AKULA UrQuan I'm wrong and you turn around and say the exact same thing I did? Anyway, this wouldn't be so much of a problem if us players bothered to salvage the wrecks in the first place. Belive it or not, only a fraction of the wrecks in the game get salvaged. for example, just go to any popular mission system and run your scanners to see the vast quanity of wrecks that go to waste. Out in 0.0 the story is pretty much the same except in this case the wrecks are destroyed by the ratter via drones before he moves onto the next belt. Yes, because you did not say the same thing I did. You said it was the players fault. It is not the players fault, in order to find that from the evidence you have to assume there is no opportunity cost in time. Which is most definitly false. It takes time to train the skills needed to salvage decently. It takes time to salvage wrecks over and above looting. Unless you are running dedicated salvage, then the return on the extra time spent salvaging lower than the return spent on moving on to the next spawn. And only so many people can run a salvage operation at any one time. Ergo the players are making the rational decision to not salvage. Ergo you cant blame them for making that decision. Ergo, its not "mostly our fault" ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Monyet Loe	Posted - 2007.03.30 12:44:00 - [74] No there not. I make nice isk on them!
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.03.30 13:21:00 - [75] The drop rate is fine, CCP keep it as it is. Now things, if there was limitless ore in a high sec eve belt but there are only 100 miners(players not macro) and need to support all of eve's mineral needs the price will be really d@mn high. I don't see what's so hard to understand, it not a higher drop rate we need as alot of parts are down to 50k a pop if that. It's the faction rats which drop more in low sec or 0.0 space rats and not mission rats. Those 0.0 rats' wrecks are rarly salvaged meaning, you guessed it it becomes waste and the parts are lost inside of an hour. It is as some say 'too high' for some but once i look at it most rigs are not only about ten-mil to twenty-mil. and most of the time this is for a free slot, med or low. If you want to have lower prices on those few mods that are spiked high: melted capacitor console being one of the highest, then there need to be either more people salvaging those rats who drop it.Then again, go into the ideas forum and support the idea of having loot and salvaging drones, thust saving highs to salvage and now make ratters into full time salvagers as well, and guess what happens as the percent of Pod Pilots salvage units the price lowers with those modules. If the common price becomes about 50k for a common units and 150k for a uncommon unit. Even if the uncommon unit is then 200k the perfect price with only a sane ME level, not perfect, the price of CCC becomes 15mil easily with a 2mil profit range per unit. If someone knows some information that would recant what i have said please share it as i think the supply does not need to increase for this market by the powers that be, CCP, but by the pilots who fight and leave the wrecks as it would be mroe of a hassile for a chance at something that would make decent money.
Zirth Caldari The Descent	Posted - 2007.03.30 14:22:00 - [76] Yep, I agree. However, not just for reasons you stated. I find that newbies too should be able to use rigs, and compete. Old players have enough advantage trough knowledge, contacts, SKILLS, time to let their wallet grow and buy T2 items. If you make rigs, which are basically insanely nice adjustments to your ship, so expensive that they're only accesible to the rich, you make it too hard to compete for newbies. Older players should have an advantage, but they already have 50m more skillpoints, tricks, bookmarks, good setups etc. I agree with that. BUT, I ALSO think that rigs should maybe be size-classed. Why? Because a 200m ship with cool bonuses trough 60m rigs is fine. But a 3m cruiser should be able to modify and specialise their ship for gank, tank, or EW exactly the same way, without spending 60m on a 3m ship. I love rigs because they allow you to specialise. 2 dampeners is nice, but 2 dampeners and 2 dampen rigs really allows you to specialise your ship in dampening, and use the strategy. However, specializing should be global, possible for every ship to some extend. Just, why does it cost 60m to specialize a 500k t1 frigate? It shouldn't. The t2 versions should be the price that t1 rigs are at now, the t1 rigs should drastically drop in price to be available for low-cost ships too, like t1 and t2 frigates, t1 cruisers, battlecruisers. If I buy 3 rigs for my myrm now I spend more than my ship. That's wrong. Small, medium and large sized rigs would be an option. But making t2 rigs available at the current t1 price, and dropping t1 prices loads would be great.
Mick Mars	Posted - 2007.03.30 14:43:00 - [77] No need for any macro-econ-know-it-all-WANNABE TWIT to reply, the OP has that job description filled.
Mia Kahn	Posted - 2007.03.30 15:00:00 - [78] For me, I think the problem is that salvaging is a pain in the neck. I rarely ever salvage anymore because It's more profitable for me to do another mission instead of salvage the current one. If you really want rigs to come down in price, I would suggest simply making salvaging easier. Not easier as in highter drop rates or less component requirements, but to make it less of a time sink to salvage. Such as: -Increasing the range and speed of tractor beams -Increasing the range of salvagers, and possibly lowering their cycle times.
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.03.30 15:36:00 - [79] Edited by: Plutoinum on 30/03/2007 15:41:14 Originally by: Shadarle Prices are just fine where they are imo. Most rigs cost between 15-20 mil, the only ones that cost more are the ultra popular ones. Rigs are still coming down in price as well. Slowly... but they are coming down. Just give it all more time and they will hit the 10 mil price point eventually I think. Rig tech-1 prices are in no relation to the bpo costs, usually a bpo costs 10-times the build cost of an item. It took me a lot of time to collect the titanium alloy bars for only one rig. The drop-rates are only mentionable for angel rats I guess, because after running and salvaging several angel lvl.4 missions I was able to complete my rig, while killing other rats the weeks before gave me only a few. The titanium alloy bars alone for a rig like cargo or polycarbon housing rig are worth 22-25 mil. I want to go into tech-2 rig production, so I need one rig for the invention run, 1 for production, data cores, decryptors, losses due to failures, then probably even more rare rig components to build tech-2 rigs that cost millions per unit and then we are maybe talking about a few hundred million for such a tech-2 rig. It doesn't fit. Something should be done. The salvager will get his money, doesn't make a difference if he get 10 components worth 50k or 20 components worth 25k. Income the same. On the other hand demands for rigs will go up as prices get more reasonable. So in the end, everyone wins, except some people, who are for elitism. So I agree, 40 mil for some rigs sound more reasonable for the invented tech-2 variant, but not tech-1. Like I said, if the tech-1 variant is worth 40 mil, the tech-2 variant will cost hundred millions. ___________ Muuuhhh !!!
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.03.30 16:10:00 - [80] Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 30/03/2007 16:10:23 What skills are needed to get salvage parts and build them? I teach new pilots now about salvaging field of making money because they can use the quick money boost. If you repruce the size of rigs will just flood the market with rigs that, to be honest, won't be used at all because they use the same componenets that larger ships use. If you are talking about younger pilots need them for frigate class ships then you need to in short of words, adopt that pilot and show them what they need to do properly, you do not need any rigs for lv 1 missions at all and rarly any would be truely helpful one lv 2 missions. By the time a pilot is doing level three missions they should be in their first battlecuriser. Now at this point they have a reason to get t1 rigs. Now if they have have been aiding to the selling of rig parts they would have collected the more uncommon units or sold them to make money for better equipment. You areue that they are too high in prices. Over all this is false. The case in being these units give a limited free slot to be used enhancing the ship beyond what it was first balanced at. A rig in a cruiser should be uncommon from the size and servivability. If a cruiser wants to use a rig normaly it would be a much cheaper resistance rigs or repair enhancement rigs. These rigs use mostly very common units but the one rig that would normally be priced higher is a CCC, because it has no draw back. This gives a free Cap recharger I to a ship which is reason for it's higher price. For argument's sake let the prices be: Tripped Power Circuit: 50,000ISK Burned Logic Circuit: 50,000ISK Melted Capacitor Console: 500,000ISK Base price: 23(19.5 if researched)mil Sell price: 25mil As you see the prices are fair save one unit. The Console, this unit is droped by a rat spasific unit but these units drop in higher number from that race's battleship. But that is in 0.0 space or low sec, there needs to be a way for these ratters to salvage without ruining their setups, it is event that they will not give up their setup's power in a chance for some more ISK. Lets say they introduce as I said befor salvaging drones to salvage for the pilots meaning this brings in a sharp intake of uncommon or rare salvaging units. This will lower the price greatly, lets say this 200,000ISK a unit after all of this happens then the price drops drasticly to: Build price: 14.9(13 when researched) Sell price: 14-17.5mil The components are there they are just not being harvested to be used.
slothe Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.03.30 16:12:00 - [81] introduce dedicated salvaging ships price goes down
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.03.30 16:12:00 - [82] Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 30/03/2007 16:11:23 -Edit-
EscapeArtist Caldari Deviance Inc	Posted - 2007.03.30 16:20:00 - [83] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: AKULA UrQuan Ergo, its not "mostly our fault" Ergo tosser, I wasn't agreeing with hm that it was our fault, instead that the only thing CCP could do to drive down the price of rigs, without a major overhaul was adjusting drop rate and build costs. You really should have clarified in your first post just what he was wrong about, as you only ended up conceiting your first post. To a degree I really couldn't give a flying V. The end result is the same... CCP needs to adjust the amount of drops and or units needed to build the rigs... as well as the drawback. ------ I am Legend
Magenta K	Posted - 2007.03.31 00:13:00 - [84] Originally by: Zirth Yep, I agree. BUT, I ALSO think that rigs should maybe be size-classed. Why? Because a 200m ship with cool bonuses trough 60m rigs is fine. But a 3m cruiser should be able to modify and specialise their ship for gank, tank, or EW exactly the same way, without spending 60m on a 3m ship. I love rigs because they allow you to specialise. 2 dampeners is nice, but 2 dampeners and 2 dampen rigs really allows you to specialise your ship in dampening, and use the strategy. However, specializing should be global, possible for every ship to some extend. Just, why does it cost 60m to specialize a 500k t1 frigate? It shouldn't. The t2 versions should be the price that t1 rigs are at now, the t1 rigs should drastically drop in price to be available for low-cost ships too, like t1 and t2 frigates, t1 cruisers, battlecruisers. If I buy 3 rigs for my myrm now I spend more than my ship. That's wrong. Small, medium and large sized rigs would be an option. But making t2 rigs available at the current t1 price, and dropping t1 prices loads would be great. THIS idea I support. Small, medium and large rigs that fit different ship classes and perhaps have different bonuses (not too sure about that, it's an option) say 5, 10, 15% for the t1 rigs of varying sizes. Small fit frigs and cruisers, medium fit cruisers and BCs, large fit BCs and BS. Calibration values would vary as well - a cruiser could easily fit 3 small rigs, but would be tight with two medium for example. Different rig sizes would make them cost-effective for smaller/cheaper ships and be more accessible to younger players. * I just bought my first battleship with proceeds from selling rigs (didn't play for 6 months, my skills and economics don't match my character age). The skills required - salvage (to 4), jury rigging (to 3), and production efficiency (to 4) were only a couple of days. I missioned like crazy, and used a dedicated salvage ship (destroyer, 4x salvager, 3x tractor, cap mods to keep going) to clean up. I ratted when I could do so safely - rewards are much higher there (waves from offscan safespot). As mentioned by another poster, despite the high cost of assembled rigs some are NOT selling for more than the sum of their parts. Even with awesome skills and assuming you've researched the BPO to death, you have to be careful about what you decide to build. I made my own spreadsheet to track my components, what I could build and what my profit margin (if any) would be. Work it! Even though I've built several rigs, I've only installed one for myself - salvage tackle, and I debated even that. For newer players, the cost benefit ratio for rigs is too high. We need the money to upgrade ship classes, not make the ships we have more effective. * CCP has a good policy of introducing new content pre-nerfed - as annoying as that is for early adopters. I'm torn - I do think rigs need some kind of adjustment to make them more accessible to more players and more ship classes (who would rig a rifter?) but as much as I agree that salvaging is a chore, I don't think that adjusting drop rate or build requirements (for currently available rigs) is the way to solve that problem. If there is a rig adjustment I support, it would be the creation of rig sizes. Rigs could be cheaper, make sense for smaller ship classes and more accessible to younger players.
Lothendra Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.31 01:15:00 - [85] Rigs Mk II http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=495642
Elain Reverse Caldari Shokei	Posted - 2007.03.31 02:19:00 - [86] Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 30/03/2007 00:19:22 Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 30/03/2007 00:18:36 Originally by: Elain Reverse Good idea, but make them unable to scan in deadspaces as it will make otherway pirates to scan you in midle of mission. Or maybe just do flagging with them? There are a good deal of missions that aren't in deadspace, so that makes those cans "insecure" for a good many missions. EDIT: Actually... you can't tractor someone else's wrecks anyway... you have to be in the same corp or gang. So, it would be very difficult for other people to salvage, because they would have to fly to within 5000m of each wreck. Actual wreck flagging is bugged litle, it will mess if real owner of wreck get disconected and it will mess sometime when there are lags. What i was talking about is make them unable to scan wrecks as long as they are in deadspace or it will give another way for pirates to scan and kill your ship, as long as you return mission, deadspace is gome, they become scanable.
Elain Reverse Caldari Shokei	Posted - 2007.03.31 02:34:00 - [87] Originally by: Magenta K THIS idea I support. Small, medium and large rigs that fit different ship classes and perhaps have different bonuses (not too sure about that, it's an option) say 5, 10, 15% for the t1 rigs of varying sizes. Small fit frigs and cruisers, medium fit cruisers and BCs, large fit BCs and BS. Calibration values would vary as well - a cruiser could easily fit 3 small rigs, but would be tight with two medium for example. Different rig sizes would make them cost-effective for smaller/cheaper ships and be more accessible to younger players. * I just bought my first battleship with proceeds from selling rigs (didn't play for 6 months, my skills and economics don't match my character age). The skills required - salvage (to 4), jury rigging (to 3), and production efficiency (to 4) were only a couple of days. I missioned like crazy, and used a dedicated salvage ship (destroyer, 4x salvager, 3x tractor, cap mods to keep going) to clean up. I ratted when I could do so safely - rewards are much higher there (waves from offscan safespot). As mentioned by another poster, despite the high cost of assembled rigs some are NOT selling for more than the sum of their parts. Even with awesome skills and assuming you've researched the BPO to death, you have to be careful about what you decide to build. I made my own spreadsheet to track my components, what I could build and what my profit margin (if any) would be. Work it! Even though I've built several rigs, I've only installed one for myself - salvage tackle, and I debated even that. For newer players, the cost benefit ratio for rigs is too high. We need the money to upgrade ship classes, not make the ships we have more effective. * CCP has a good policy of introducing new content pre-nerfed - as annoying as that is for early adopters. I'm torn - I do think rigs need some kind of adjustment to make them more accessible to more players and more ship classes (who would rig a rifter?) but as much as I agree that salvaging is a chore, I don't think that adjusting drop rate or build requirements (for currently available rigs) is the way to solve that problem. If there is a rig adjustment I support, it would be the creation of rig sizes. Rigs could be cheaper, make sense for smaller ship classes and more accessible to younger players. 5,10,15% for small, medium, big rigs ? I realy dont like that idea. It doesnt matter if you tune your engine by 10% on motocycle, car, plane or spaceship. Why shoud be smaler ship % penalized ? If rigs have exact bonuses like small medium and large shield extenders, then it will be OK because frigate should not instal 3x 2000 HP shield extender but as long as they are percentage based they are OK as they are. Price for T1 rigs 10-20m is OK for most ships, maybe litle less to start them use in smallest ships, but i think fair price for T2 should be 100-150m, not 0.5b as some cost now.
heheheh Singularity. The Cartel.	Posted - 2007.03.31 02:38:00 - [88] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: heheheh Edited by: heheheh on 30/03/2007 03:08:23 Edited by: heheheh on 30/03/2007 03:05:56 how are rigs too expensive when you can salvage the parts yourself while killing stuff wasting absolutly no time, therefor costing you NOTHING? saying that, a bit of an increase in drop rates wouldnt be a bad thing. Time is nothing? Can you be more clear with your question, If you salvage while doing other things, browse market, mine, shoot other rats, while salvaging as well, you are therefor spending no extra time whatsoever salvaging. It then makes you take no time and throws the crappy "time is money" argument out of the window, thats if you can spare the time to chuck it out.
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.03.31 04:21:00 - [89] Originally by: heheheh Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: heheheh Edited by: heheheh on 30/03/2007 03:08:23 Edited by: heheheh on 30/03/2007 03:05:56 how are rigs too expensive when you can salvage the parts yourself while killing stuff wasting absolutly no time, therefor costing you NOTHING? saying that, a bit of an increase in drop rates wouldnt be a bad thing. Time is nothing? Can you be more clear with your question, If you salvage while doing other things, browse market, mine, shoot other rats, while salvaging as well, you are therefor spending no extra time whatsoever salvaging. It then makes you take no time and throws the crappy "time is money" argument out of the window, thats if you can spare the time to chuck it out. Time is money. I mine while i play a vid game and check on my barge evey so often, i'm playing a game not really mining then? So I could builds a Rohk for "free" as I was really playing a different's game? Time is money even if you multi-task
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.31 04:49:00 - [90] Originally by: heheheh Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: heheheh Edited by: heheheh on 30/03/2007 03:08:23 Edited by: heheheh on 30/03/2007 03:05:56 how are rigs too expensive when you can salvage the parts yourself while killing stuff wasting absolutly no time, therefor costing you NOTHING? saying that, a bit of an increase in drop rates wouldnt be a bad thing. Time is nothing? Can you be more clear with your question, If you salvage while doing other things, browse market, mine, shoot other rats, while salvaging as well, you are therefor spending no extra time whatsoever salvaging. It then makes you take no time and throws the crappy "time is money" argument out of the window, thats if you can spare the time to chuck it out. You cant salvage while doing other things. Shoot, i cant tractor in cans fast enough before i kill rats, you think i can tractor them in and salvage them while maintaining guns on top of the ship? ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.03.31 09:42:00 - [91] I agree with the OP. If rig component requirements were simply halved, everything would be fine across the board. T2 rig requirements need to be reduced by about 80%, so that the components still retain their value on a per piece basis, but the rigs themseves drop in price from 350-450m to 50-80m. Because I said so...
heheheh Singularity. The Cartel.	Posted - 2007.03.31 16:59:00 - [92] Edited by: heheheh on 31/03/2007 16:57:59 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: heheheh Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: heheheh Edited by: heheheh on 30/03/2007 03:08:23 Edited by: heheheh on 30/03/2007 03:05:56 how are rigs too expensive when you can salvage the parts yourself while killing stuff wasting absolutly no time, therefor costing you NOTHING? saying that, a bit of an increase in drop rates wouldnt be a bad thing. Time is nothing? Can you be more clear with your question, If you salvage while doing other things, browse market, mine, shoot other rats, while salvaging as well, you are therefor spending no extra time whatsoever salvaging. It then makes you take no time and throws the crappy "time is money" argument out of the window, thats if you can spare the time to chuck it out. You cant salvage while doing other things. Shoot, i cant tractor in cans fast enough before i kill rats, you think i can tractor them in and salvage them while maintaining guns on top of the ship? Rubbish, you can do all the above as you salvage, If you kill the rats too quick go where there are more rats, if you cant shoot and salvage at the same time lol, learn to. Its not hard, multitask ftw, you should be good at it as you sound like a female, with all this moaning.
Zahril Minmatar	Posted - 2007.03.31 18:52:00 - [93] I think the biggest problem with rigs is that you use the same rigs for capitals and frigates. In my opinion the rig prices are fine for battleships, actually I think they are too cheap for capitals at the moment, they are way too expensive for anything smaller than battleship though. They should be divided in to 4 different categories like all other mods with frigate size rigs requiring 1/10 of current materials, cruiser size rigs requiring 1/3, battleship frigs what they require now and capital frigs requiring three times the components rigs currently require. Also some rigs definetly need boost or energy rigs need a nerf to balance the demand a bit.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.31 20:37:00 - [94] Originally by: heheheh Edited by: heheheh on 31/03/2007 16:57:59 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: heheheh Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: heheheh Edited by: heheheh on 30/03/2007 03:08:23 Edited by: heheheh on 30/03/2007 03:05:56 how are rigs too expensive when you can salvage the parts yourself while killing stuff wasting absolutly no time, therefor costing you NOTHING? saying that, a bit of an increase in drop rates wouldnt be a bad thing. Time is nothing? Can you be more clear with your question, If you salvage while doing other things, browse market, mine, shoot other rats, while salvaging as well, you are therefor spending no extra time whatsoever salvaging. It then makes you take no time and throws the crappy "time is money" argument out of the window, thats if you can spare the time to chuck it out. You cant salvage while doing other things. Shoot, i cant tractor in cans fast enough before i kill rats, you think i can tractor them in and salvage them while maintaining guns on top of the ship? Rubbish, you can do all the above as you salvage, If you kill the rats too quick go where there are more rats, if you cant shoot and salvage at the same time lol, learn to. Its not hard, multitask ftw, you should be good at it as you sound like a female, with all this moaning. I rat angels in an artillery geddon. It cannot be done. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Sadist Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.03.31 20:40:00 - [95] Originally by: Blind Man i think T2 rig prices should be at about what t1 rig prices are at right now, and make t1 rigs cost <1m, so definitely agreed The stupidest remark in a century. Rigs are cheap enough as it is, but they aren't mean to be as disposable as ammo. òòòòòòòòòòòò VIP member of the [23] Quote: - Numbers alone do not win a battle - No, but I bet they help.
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.03.31 21:19:00 - [96] Originally by: murder one I agree with the OP. If rig component requirements were simply halved, everything would be fine across the board. T2 rig requirements need to be reduced by about 80%, so that the components still retain their value on a per piece basis, but the rigs themseves drop in price from 350-450m to 50-80m. That is not the reason for the prices.. It is high for the same reason Officer loot costs alot. They are rare right now, unlike officer gear they will drip in price as it becomes more of a market. This is still a t2 market zone, untill more producers are here prices will be high, if they only took one unit they would still be that high because rarly anyone can build one and alot of people want them.
AvatarADV	Posted - 2007.03.31 21:25:00 - [97] One of the reasons that -all- rigs are so expensive is that there's not much variety in the parts needed in order to construct rigs. If rigs didn't have a whole lot of parts overlap, you'd have much more market differentiation. The "best" rigs (CCC, cargohold, yadda yadda) would continue to be very high in price, because they're worth that kind of money to people who can afford to pay highly for rigs. Other rigs, which have less desirable effects, would quickly drop in price, to the point where you could afford to toss a couple of them on a cheap cruiser or even a pricey frigate. Sure, they're not great bonuses, but meh, it's cheap, right? However, ALL rigs use the various circuit parts. This means that there is a very strong incentive to use those parts on the most desirable rigs - after all, there's a limited supply of circuits, and people have a big incentive to build valuable CCCs rather than lousy weapon rigs. Because of the price of those parts (and the fact that you need rather a large quantity of them!), there is a "price floor" for rigs; rigs simply aren't manufactured for sale for a cost less than their circuit components. Ironically, because of this, the price for the non-circuit components for the "less desirable" rigs drops through the floor. There's a huge surplus of them, because they're being dropped in a "balanced" fashion but absolutely not being constructed as such. A mild rebalance might be in order. Juggling component types so that not every rig requires the use of components of CCCs and cargo rigs will drop the price of those rigs slightly, and allow other rig prices to float more or less independently instead of being pegged to the value of CCC and cargo rig components.
Agent Li Galactic Defence Consortium	Posted - 2007.03.31 22:42:00 - [98] Originally by: Badhands Edited by: Badhands on 29/03/2007 19:05:56 My understanding is that rigs are meant to be disposable... that we should have no problem installing a rig, playing with it for a few days, pulling it out and installing a new one. I can't remember which dev said this, so flame or whatever. It really doesn't matter. An obvious fix would be to double salvage reward, and halve the build reqs. Edited for spelling. You can't uninstall a rig. Also, I don't think they're too expensive.
Ryysa North Face Force Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.01 01:08:00 - [99] Originally by: Goumindong I rat angels in an artillery geddon. It cannot be done. Train Minmatar BS 4? :P N.F.F. Recruitment
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.01 01:37:00 - [100] Originally by: Ryysa Originally by: Goumindong I rat angels in an artillery geddon. It cannot be done. Train Minmatar BS 4? :P Heh :) The point was that i ought to have plenty of time inbetween battleship kills[in comparison to the better ratters] with which to drag in loot and salvage and i still cant get it done in most cases. I'd train minnie BS, but i am on a fairly rigorous specialziation schedule and heavy berserkers + arties was the fastest way to become rat capable in the areas I operate in. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.04.01 01:57:00 - [101] Increase salvage drop rate by an order of magnitude. Also, allow wrecks to last thre hours instead of two. At two hours a wreck shows up with a recon probe and the wreck is ownerless, meaning anyone can tractor it, take loot from it, salvage it with out aggro. Prices will fall in short order. Folks who don't want to bother with salvage can sell off their mission book marks. Salvagers can run around and make a profit while at the same time rig prices would drop. Would make a great niche for newer players in the 3 to 7 month old range. Would provide them with something other than mining missions or trade to do in high sec and low sec. PVPers, lvl 4 and up mission runners, would be their main customers. Enough salvage out there and even new players might stick a rig on thier first CGs and tier 3 frigs. Despite the OP's desire not to have a supply demand argument presented, it is that simple. Increase the drop rate and increase the accesibility to all the ignored wrecks from missions and rigs would fullfill their design goal and a "mini-profession" of salvaging would be viable on its own. -AS
Tom Shandy	Posted - 2007.04.01 02:40:00 - [102] Originally by: Vincent Almasy Originally by: heheheh Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: heheheh Edited by: heheheh on 30/03/2007 03:08:23 Edited by: heheheh on 30/03/2007 03:05:56 how are rigs too expensive when you can salvage the parts yourself while killing stuff wasting absolutly no time, therefor costing you NOTHING? saying that, a bit of an increase in drop rates wouldnt be a bad thing. Time is nothing? Can you be more clear with your question, If you salvage while doing other things, browse market, mine, shoot other rats, while salvaging as well, you are therefor spending no extra time whatsoever salvaging. It then makes you take no time and throws the crappy "time is money" argument out of the window, thats if you can spare the time to chuck it out. Time is money. I mine while i play a vid game and check on my barge evey so often, i'm playing a game not really mining then? So I could builds a Rohk for "free" as I was really playing a different's game? Time is money even if you multi-task My time is not money, yours is maybe, but each to his own. I have better things to measure mytime with intead of cash. I pity you.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.01 03:38:00 - [103] Originally by: Tom Shandy My time is not money, yours is maybe, but each to his own. I have better things to measure mytime with intead of cash. I pity you. Yea, it does suck that there are not infinite hours in a day and that some of have to work for a living. If you dont want to pity me i accept travelers checks, no credit though. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.04.01 04:30:00 - [104] Rigs are expensive? Good, Rigs aren't meant to be a standard, easy to come by addition to ships. If you have to pay extra for them, big deal, either pay, or don't. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Basics	Posted - 2007.04.01 04:32:00 - [105] i'm glad rigs are high. i wish t2 ships didn't go down. cus than not everyone can have one. rigs can set up for all i care.
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.04.01 05:48:00 - [106] Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 01/04/2007 05:44:57 Originally by: Basics i'm glad rigs are high. i wish t2 ships didn't go down. cus than not everyone can have one. rigs can set up for all i care. Rig units are cheap from how i see it but some are higher from lack of salvage. But i think i rig should stay about 10mil-15mil(kinda low for most), no less then 5m a pop. T2 ships were inflated. T2 ship parts and production time set aside they made more then 500% profit for ships. The price should drop to about 100 to 200% profit, well as long as the T2 parts stay low(maybe a increase into how many units a t2 takes may be needed).
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.01 07:08:00 - [107] Edited by: Goumindong on 01/04/2007 07:05:28 Originally by: Vincent Almasy Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 01/04/2007 05:44:57 Originally by: Basics i'm glad rigs are high. i wish t2 ships didn't go down. cus than not everyone can have one. rigs can set up for all i care. Rig units are cheap from how i see it but some are higher from lack of salvage. But i think i rig should stay about 10mil-15mil(kinda low for most), no less then 5m a pop. T2 ships were inflated. T2 ship parts and production time set aside they made more then 500% profit for ships. The price should drop to about 100 to 200% profit, well as long as the T2 parts stay low(maybe a increase into how many units a t2 takes may be needed). If you are looking to set prices[and CCP is] setting prices based on the build cost of an item is rather counterproductive, especialy when build cost is arbitrary depending on item supply, something CCP controls ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Badhands Gallente DarkStar 1 Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.04.01 07:54:00 - [108] Originally by: Sadist Originally by: Blind Man i think T2 rig prices should be at about what t1 rig prices are at right now, and make t1 rigs cost <1m, so definitely agreed The stupidest remark in a century. Rigs are cheap enough as it is, but they aren't mean to be as disposable as ammo. Actually... yes. Yes they are meant to be VERY cheap, even disposable. According to Oveur (That IS who it was, and it WAS on EveTV, you're on point Xori).
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.04.01 11:32:00 - [109] Rigs need to come in size classes where this is possible. Could be easily accomplished for stuff like mass, weapons, powergrid etc.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.04.01 11:46:00 - [110] Rigs are fine. Where did anyone ever say that everyone should be able to rig his ships without needing to think about wether or not its worth it ? Just a fyi. Evolution is horrendously rich as a corp. I mean, really stupidly wealthy. I have not had any of my pvp ships rigged yet. ... [center] Old blog
HeadTycoon	Posted - 2007.04.01 12:12:00 - [111] Originally by: AvatarADV One of the reasons that -all- rigs are so expensive is that there's not much variety in the parts needed in order to construct rigs. Yup, that's a point in whole discussion. I made billions ISKs (around 10 so far) in rigs in my spare time (I mostly PVP with another char), so I know a bit about it. Circuits are the problem. Simple 2 steps to resolve it for CCP: 1. Check turnover in Jita in last 2 months, and group rigs in two groups - high and low demand. 2. Make all high demand use the same 2 circuits types - let them compete among themselves. Make all low demand use other 2 types. C'mon, it doesn't need a rocket scientist :) On a side note, in curent model don't expect any lower prices - price for salvage materials hit the bottom and are rising currently. I imagine, if people do salvaging and they earn less and less over time, some of them stop doing that, causing less salvage on market and price rise. That's what I see now. Cheers
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.04.01 15:50:00 - [112] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 01/04/2007 07:05:28 Originally by: Vincent Almasy Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 01/04/2007 05:44:57 Originally by: Basics i'm glad rigs are high. i wish t2 ships didn't go down. cus than not everyone can have one. rigs can set up for all i care. Rig units are cheap from how i see it but some are higher from lack of salvage. But i think i rig should stay about 10mil-15mil(kinda low for most), no less then 5m a pop. T2 ships were inflated. T2 ship parts and production time set aside they made more then 500% profit for ships. The price should drop to about 100 to 200% profit, well as long as the T2 parts stay low(maybe a increase into how many units a t2 takes may be needed). If you are looking to set prices[and CCP is] setting prices based on the build cost of an item is rather counterproductive, especialy when build cost is arbitrary depending on item supply, something CCP controls That is correct if not for one flaw. I had said befor more of the rare parts that are high prices from from lowsec or 0.0 pirate wrecks and not missions. The problem is most of these wrecks are left alone and unsalvaged and so the parts are simply lost. There needs to be a way to salvage as most people who are killing these rats will not give up part of their setup for salvagers and tractor beams. There are more then enough materials just we are not tapping into them yet.
Flaming sambuka Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.04.01 15:58:00 - [113] Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Originally by: Phelan Lore Make rigs drop as loot from player ships. Dude that would KICK ASS >:D Indeed it would.
Word	Posted - 2007.04.01 16:34:00 - [114] Everyone makes good points here. I got burned when I bought propellent vent bpo, then salvaged all the materials to build two riggs, then wake up one morning after the patch to find two lousy cheap aux thrusters. Salvage IS really a pain! that's why they're expensive. And when CCP arbitrailly switches rigs on you, it really sucks. Here's one of the new "improvements" : You go to your wreck and now I'm getting, "The wreck has already been salvaged" W T F ?? This is just of the additional difficulty factors recently ADDED to make it harder. Although I must say WELL DONE CCP for allowing salvage without popping a can first. This one little thing has helped speed up the salvaging process.
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.04.01 17:03:00 - [115] Originally by: Word Here's one of the new "improvements" : You go to your wreck and now I'm getting, "The wreck has already been salvaged" W T F ?? This is just of the additional difficulty factors recently ADDED to make it harder. This happens when you have two salvagers on same target. salvager 1 gets the parts but when salvager 2 tried to it is already salvaged. This does not boost difficulty, they lowered it from highented drop rate I only have one complaint... WTF is with the scrap metal i get from what seemed named NPC during missions?
Word	Posted - 2007.04.01 17:19:00 - [116] Originally by: Vincent Almasy This happens when you have two salvagers on same target. salvager 1 gets the parts but when salvager 2 tried to it is already salvaged. This does not boost difficulty, they lowered it from highented drop rate I only have one complaint... WTF is with the scrap metal i get from what seemed named NPC during missions?[/quote Ah, thanks, that makes sense. yeah, the scrap metal requires a lot more cargo space, and it's relativly worthless on the market. I usually jettison it now. I did notice that yesterday that I got some good stuff with the scap metal, so that's ok. You just have to make room for it and can be an inconvenience.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.01 17:45:00 - [117] Originally by: Vincent Almasy That is correct if not for one flaw. I had said befor more of the rare parts that are high prices from from lowsec or 0.0 pirate wrecks and not missions. The problem is most of these wrecks are left alone and unsalvaged and so the parts are simply lost. There needs to be a way to salvage as most people who are killing these rats will not give up part of their setup for salvagers and tractor beams. There are more then enough materials just we are not tapping into them yet. It is not that "we are not tapping into them" it is that each individual player makes a concious and correct decision to not salvage because it would take more time than it is worth to them in order to make that salvage be profitable. They wanted to make it mini-profession lite, which i can respect, because with the population increases it will [and is] become increasingly hard to find rats near congregation points. While this isnt really a problem in low sec due to the number of stations, in 0.0 this can become a huge issue do to GSC availability. So salvage becomes another thing for people to do without cutting into the ratting of people. This is good. Its just that the amount of rigs you get from each rat you salvage isnt high enough. If Rigs are to be similar to even many tech 2 mods this has to increase drastically. I mean, how many rats do i have to kill and bring in their loot to be able to refine that stuff and make a module I want? Two, maybe three depending if the module is resource intensive. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.04.01 18:51:00 - [118] Originally by: Goumindong Its just that the amount of rigs you get from each rat you salvage isnt high enough. If Rigs are to be similar to even many tech 2 mods this has to increase drastically. I mean, how many rats do i have to kill and bring in their loot to be able to refine that stuff and make a module I want? Two, maybe three depending if the module is resource intensive. I'm sorry i don't fully understand what you are trying to say in this last piece. As for asking for the modification to be increased, i would say no, but make the rig part of the ship -aka- pre stacking nerf so rig on stack with other rig and not modules. normaly t2 is only better then t1 by about 10-20% And as for the question on rats to make a mod you'd have to get alot to add on a somewhat of a free bonus without taking up a slot. The amount of rats you need to kill also takes into account and size, but they have to take enough parts so you don't just spit them out. They are not ment to be super cheap but help specialize so they should cost a bit. 10-15 or up to 20mil on a t1 mod should be a good price, it shrinks down to the 10-15mil range when the rarer parts are gained from their respective wrecks from low/0.0 space. Just like mining, you can get alot os parts form highsec but for the good things you need minerals from lowsec and the better ones then that from 0.0 space. This should also apply to rigs.
Capt Rob Minmatar Black Omega Security GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.04.01 19:00:00 - [119] on the having rigs drop idea, i recently killed a scorp and there were 3 rigs in his cargo along with everything else he had fitted cus nothing blew up. prob bug, but was nice to get some rigs
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.01 19:01:00 - [120] Originally by: Vincent Almasy Originally by: Goumindong Its just that the amount of rigs you get from each rat you salvage isnt high enough. If Rigs are to be similar to even many tech 2 mods this has to increase drastically. I mean, how many rats do i have to kill and bring in their loot to be able to refine that stuff and make a module I want? Two, maybe three depending if the module is resource intensive. I'm sorry i don't fully understand what you are trying to say in this last piece. As for asking for the modification to be increased, i would say no, but make the rig part of the ship -aka- pre stacking nerf so rig on stack with other rig and not modules. normaly t2 is only better then t1 by about 10-20% And as for the question on rats to make a mod you'd have to get alot to add on a somewhat of a free bonus without taking up a slot. The amount of rats you need to kill also takes into account and size, but they have to take enough parts so you don't just spit them out. They are not ment to be super cheap but help specialize so they should cost a bit. 10-15 or up to 20mil on a t1 mod should be a good price, it shrinks down to the 10-15mil range when the rarer parts are gained from their respective wrecks from low/0.0 space. Just like mining, you can get alot os parts form highsec but for the good things you need minerals from lowsec and the better ones then that from 0.0 space. This should also apply to rigs. Yea, you dont get it at all. number of rats needed to make a "module" by refining rat loot = x number of rats needed to make a "rig" by salvaging= y If rigs are to be common, like modules, as they are intended[see Oveur eve-tv comment], then y needs to increase to nearer to the value of x. If i need to make an armor hardener it takes maybe two to three cruiser rats to make that happen with bad refining skills and bad production skills on an unresearched BPO. Rigs are not "free slots" rigs that are unused are wasted slots. A ship with 3 cccs has a 62% capacitor recharge advantage over a ship without. No penalty. A ship with 3 SMCs has a 52% capacitor advantage and a 52% recharge advantage over a ship without. That isnt a "free slot" its a wasted slot if its not used. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.04.01 20:45:00 - [121] Please tell me how much should rigs in your own thoughts be? I said 10-15mil would be fair, how about you?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.01 21:53:00 - [122] Edited by: Goumindong on 01/04/2007 21:49:51 Originally by: Vincent Almasy Please tell me how much should rigs in your own thoughts be? I said 10-15mil would be fair, how about you? 10-15m should be the upper range. PG rigs, SMCs and equivelent. 1-3m: Low quality rigs, such as: Armor Rigs: armor resistance rigs, HP rigs Turret rigs: All exceptfalloff or optimal rigs Velocity rigs: All except for cargo, speed, Mass, and agility rigs Drone rigs: mining, durability rigs, ew drone range Electronics rigs: except scan probe time Electronics Superiority rigs: Lock Range, Scan Time, Targeting Speed Energy Grid Rigs: Powergrid subroutine monitors and egress port maximizers Missile Rigs: RoF, Damage, and flight time Rigs Salvge rigs: All salvage rigs 3-5m: Mid-low quality rigs such as: Shield Rigs: Shield resistance rigs, HP rigs, boost time reduction Turret rigs: Optimal Rigs except lasers, Laser falloff rig Velocity rigs: Agility and Velocity Rigs Drone Rigs: Drone Range, Stasis Strength, Optial range Missile rigs: Velocity Rigs Electronics Superiority rigs: Cloak De-allignment Armor Rigs: Armor Rep time reduction, remote rep boost 6-10m: Mid-high quality rigs such as: Shield Rigs: Capacitor reduction, Powergrid reduction rigs Turret Rigs: Laser Optimal rigs, Hybrid falloff rigs Missile rigs: Target Velocity rigs Velocity Rigs: Mass Rigs Electronics Superiority Rigs: EW Range mods[not ECM range], ECM strength Drone Rigs: Control Range, repair strength Energy Grid Rigs: Capacitor Recharge rigs 10-15m: High quality rigs such as Shield Rigs: Size rigs, Recharge rigs Electronics Superiority rigs: EW strength rigs[not ECM strength], ECM Range Missile Rigs: Sig Rad Rigs Turret Rigs: Projectile Falloff Rigs Drone Rigs: Sentry Damage, Velocity Electronics rigs: Scan probe time Energy Grid Rigs: Powergrid Rigs, Capacitor Size rigs Armor Rigs: Armor Repair Amount Rigs Velocity Rigs: Cargo Rigs I believe that covers them all, if i forgot anything let me know. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Tyd Drakken CyberDyne Industries Terror In The System	Posted - 2007.04.02 00:24:00 - [123] they are pretty expencive but i dont mind at all , tho in fleet battles were losing alot of ships fittings and rigs does suck
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.04.02 00:32:00 - [124] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 01/04/2007 21:49:51 Originally by: Vincent Almasy Please tell me how much should rigs in your own thoughts be? I said 10-15mil would be fair, how about you? 10-15m should be the upper range. PG rigs, SMCs and equivelent. 1-3m: Low quality rigs, such as: Armor Rigs: armor resistance rigs, HP rigs Turret rigs: All exceptfalloff or optimal rigs Velocity rigs: All except for cargo, speed, Mass, and agility rigs Drone rigs: mining, durability rigs, ew drone range Electronics rigs: except scan probe time Electronics Superiority rigs: Lock Range, Scan Time, Targeting Speed Energy Grid Rigs: Powergrid subroutine monitors and egress port maximizers Missile Rigs: RoF, Damage, and flight time Rigs Salvge rigs: All salvage rigs 3-5m: Mid-low quality rigs such as: Shield Rigs: Shield resistance rigs, HP rigs, boost time reduction Turret rigs: Optimal Rigs except lasers, Laser falloff rig Velocity rigs: Agility and Velocity Rigs Drone Rigs: Drone Range, Stasis Strength, Optial range Missile rigs: Velocity Rigs Electronics Superiority rigs: Cloak De-allignment Armor Rigs: Armor Rep time reduction, remote rep boost 6-10m: Mid-high quality rigs such as: Shield Rigs: Capacitor reduction, Powergrid reduction rigs Turret Rigs: Laser Optimal rigs, Hybrid falloff rigs Missile rigs: Target Velocity rigs Velocity Rigs: Mass Rigs Electronics Superiority Rigs: EW Range mods[not ECM range], ECM strength Drone Rigs: Control Range, repair strength Energy Grid Rigs: Capacitor Recharge rigs 10-15m: High quality rigs such as Shield Rigs: Size rigs, Recharge rigs Electronics Superiority rigs: EW strength rigs[not ECM strength], ECM Range Missile Rigs: Sig Rad Rigs Turret Rigs: Projectile Falloff Rigs Drone Rigs: Sentry Damage, Velocity Electronics rigs: Scan probe time Energy Grid Rigs: Powergrid Rigs, Capacitor Size rigs Armor Rigs: Armor Repair Amount Rigs Velocity Rigs: Cargo Rigs I believe that covers them all, if i forgot anything let me know. I would like to ask one thing, what happens is rigs only stack nerfed other rigs and not modules?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.02 01:02:00 - [125] Edited by: Goumindong on 02/04/2007 01:00:19 I am not going to concern myself with the possibility that rigs will only be stacking nerfed against other rigs and not modules because it isnt going to happen. It breaks so many things its ridiculous. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.04.02 02:06:00 - [126] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 02/04/2007 01:00:19 I am not going to concern myself with the possibility that rigs will only be stacking nerfed against other rigs and not modules because it isnt going to happen. It breaks so many things its ridiculous. The ones that are affected by stacking nerf are lamost usless because of what it is. The ones that don't become A grade for that specialty. That is why weapon rigs normally are usless as a weapon upgrade does that and another effect, and at that point they have 2-3 the rig or the booster is simi-uselessly small % increase.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.02 02:20:00 - [127] Originally by: Vincent Almasy Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 02/04/2007 01:00:19 I am not going to concern myself with the possibility that rigs will only be stacking nerfed against other rigs and not modules because it isnt going to happen. It breaks so many things its ridiculous. The ones that are affected by stacking nerf are lamost usless because of what it is. The ones that don't become A grade for that specialty. That is why weapon rigs normally are usless as a weapon upgrade does that and another effect, and at that point they have 2-3 the rig or the booster is simi-uselessly small % increase. If the weapon upgrades arent stacked they will break weapon balance. There will never be a use for upsizing. Currently, weapon damage rigs are not totaly useless, they have uses on frigates and other low slot deprived ships that want to fit for an omni tank without sacrificing as much gank. The problem is that they are so bloody expensive they do not work well in that manner. Take away the stacking and electron blasters will fit easier than Ions and do more DPS than neutrons while tracking a whole bunch better. Shorter range guns will actualy have a longer reach than longer range guns, or do more damage. Weapon rigs dont suck because they are stacking nerfed, they suck because the PG increase is stiff for most ships and they are expensive. At 1m a pop, i would be tossing them on frigates all the time. Just cant justify it for >1m a pop. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.04.02 03:22:00 - [128] I did not say does not stack at all but only stacks a rig to another rig. As for a frig they don't really have enough hp to omni tank. Range mod: 1.15 * 1 + (.15 * 0.87) * 1 + (.15 * 0.57) = 1.411x optial range. But +33-16.5% turret PG need DMG 1.1 * 1 + (.1 * 0.87) = 1.195x DMG at 1.21-1.15% PG increase. Maybe increase the drawback to 15% then for thes dmg/rof mods?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.02 04:20:00 - [129] Edited by: Goumindong on 02/04/2007 04:18:55 Originally by: Vincent Almasy I did not say does not stack at all but only stacks a rig to another rig. As for a frig they don't really have enough hp to omni tank. Range mod: 1.15 * 1 + (.15 * 0.87) * 1 + (.15 * 0.57) = 1.411x optial range. But +33-16.5% turret PG need DMG 1.1 * 1 + (.1 * 0.87) = 1.195x DMG at 1.21-1.15% PG increase. Maybe increase the drawback to 15% then for thes dmg/rof mods? Or we can just keep them stacking and not try and deal with ships that do 33% more DPS[1 dmg, 2 rof] or hit 41% farther. Large Electron II's if DMG/ROF mods have a 15% falloff penalty and the person using them has zero skills would take 1996 PG. A large Neutron II is 2300 PG. A Large Electron II + 3 rigs that only stack with themselves does 17.2% more DPS than a Large Neutron blaster II + 300 PG for each weapon, +17% damage. That is larger than the DPS difference between Neutrons and Electrons Right now, AND your ship will have 2100 more powergrid to play around with. With max skills you get, at the 15% number, Electon blasters that are cheaper than ion blasters and do 17% more damage than neutron blasters. With max skills at the 15% mark, ion blasters would still out-fit neutron blasters and deal 25.5% more DPS than Neutron Blasters. This would even make low teir lasers better than high teir, except that the other weapons systems would get a much larger and more effective boost since they dont rely on optimal to be effective. Removing the stacking isnt the problem, its the cost. Currently they can be usefull for frigates, since they have the lowst ratio of weapon powergrid to total powergrid[nessesitated by 1 and 2 pg mid and low slot items]. Essentialy giving these ships the option to fit for a bit more damage or a bit more tank. They take a larger penalty on speed than they do for damage, so the damage becomes a better option usualy. Now, if the rigs didnt cost 20m isk due to the supply of materials or the required materials to build an item, they could be fitted. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Tom Shandy	Posted - 2007.04.02 11:54:00 - [130] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Tom Shandy My time is not money, yours is maybe, but each to his own. I have better things to measure mytime with intead of cash. I pity you. Yea, it does suck that there are not infinite hours in a day and that some of have to work for a living. If you dont want to pity me i accept travelers checks, no credit though. I pity people that have to work for a living also, falling for the mordern "working" life so you can pay the governments wages is not a good thing.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.02 13:02:00 - [131] Originally by: Tom Shandy Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Tom Shandy My time is not money, yours is maybe, but each to his own. I have better things to measure mytime with intead of cash. I pity you. Yea, it does suck that there are not infinite hours in a day and that some of have to work for a living. If you dont want to pity me i accept travelers checks, no credit though. I pity people that have to work for a living also, falling for the mordern "working" life so you can pay the governments wages is not a good thing. I accept check and money order as well as isk. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Jian Blade	Posted - 2007.04.02 13:42:00 - [132] I still concider myself a noob. However salvaging is easy money for me and a great way for me to be able to afford things in the game. I just purchased my first BS (Raven) last weekend and this weekend I just got myself a Rokh as well. - Can't even fly the damn thing yet :) Saying noobs can't aford rigs is just daft. - Please pay as much as you like for the rigs and salvage because its a good way for us new players to make money so that we can afford the more expensive things in the game! (I also made myself my first astrometric rig for my raven ) Old timers shouldn't assume noobs are less intelligent than you. What exactly do you think we do with our play time? Lag out in Jita all day?
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.04.02 14:14:00 - [133] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 02/04/2007 04:18:55 Originally by: Vincent Almasy I did not say does not stack at all but only stacks a rig to another rig. As for a frig they don't really have enough hp to omni tank. Range mod: 1.15 * 1 + (.15 * 0.87) * 1 + (.15 * 0.57) = 1.411x optial range. But +33-16.5% turret PG need DMG 1.1 * 1 + (.1 * 0.87) = 1.195x DMG at 1.21-1.15% PG increase. Maybe increase the drawback to 15% then for thes dmg/rof mods? Or we can just keep them stacking and not try and deal with ships that do 33% more DPS[1 dmg, 2 rof] or hit 41% farther. Large Electron II's if DMG/ROF mods have a 15% falloff penalty and the person using them has zero skills would take 1996 PG. A large Neutron II is 2300 PG. A Large Electron II + 3 rigs that only stack with themselves does 17.2% more DPS than a Large Neutron blaster II + 300 PG for each weapon, +17% damage. That is larger than the DPS difference between Neutrons and Electrons Right now, AND your ship will have 2100 more powergrid to play around with. With max skills you get, at the 15% number, Electon blasters that are cheaper than ion blasters and do 17% more damage than neutron blasters. With max skills at the 15% mark, ion blasters would still out-fit neutron blasters and deal 25.5% more DPS than Neutron Blasters. This would even make low teir lasers better than high teir, except that the other weapons systems would get a much larger and more effective boost since they dont rely on optimal to be effective. Removing the stacking isnt the problem, its the cost. Currently they can be usefull for frigates, since they have the lowst ratio of weapon powergrid to total powergrid[nessesitated by 1 and 2 pg mid and low slot items]. Essentialy giving these ships the option to fit for a bit more damage or a bit more tank. They take a larger penalty on speed than they do for damage, so the damage becomes a better option usualy. Now, if the rigs didnt cost 20m isk due to the supply of materials or the required materials to build an item, they could be fitted. DMG rigs take 200 calibration for t1 so if you want to use all three rigs you can only use one. Atmost a dmg increase would be: 10% dmg and -10% rof making a 22% dmg increase while losing one rig slot. at a 10.25-21% pg increase. Also the Electron may be slightly stronger but they are still out ranged. Side note, electrons is normaly more tank then gank so they would use more tank rigs then gun rigs.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.02 14:22:00 - [134] yea, my bad, i always forget that with 2 rigs the electrons sill out dps the neutrons. And are much easier to fit for all things. Its a bad idea. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.04.02 14:34:00 - [135] Originally by: Goumindong yea, my bad, i always forget that with 2 rigs the electrons sill out dps the neutrons. And are much easier to fit for all things. Its a bad idea. They our dmg them but what are the range of them? Also what happens if you add a PG increase rig and a rof rig to neutrons, and guess what you still have a free 100 calibrations, just being fair.
Lux Simian	Posted - 2007.04.02 14:46:00 - [136] Salvage is currently my main earner. I sell the expensive bits, and keep low resale value. Mission wise this is quite a nice little line, probably on a par with mining. Why should us salvagers pay because you can't afford to buy a rig, or are to lazy to learn a couple of skills and go salvage for yourself? Just take an old ship, put some salvage hi's on and.. well thats pretty much it.... You only need two skills to salvage....
NIkis Minmatar W33D Corp. O X I D E	Posted - 2007.04.02 16:42:00 - [137] Edited by: NIkis on 02/04/2007 16:43:48 /signed against high rig prices Anyone should afford rigs right in the first weeks of play, else why do you think tech 1 ships have 3 rig slots as opposed to only 2 rig slots on tech 2 ships ? Do you see 1 month old noobs with a fleet of rig-fitted frigates and cruisers ? I think not , they cost way too much, and some of them are imbalanced. Also tech 2 rigs (and tech 2 rig components) WAY WAY TOO RARE. Comparing it to item drops from rats (as someone did) makes it quite obvious that rigs aren't the 'novelty for all' item they were supposed to be. Not to mention them being destroyed in pvp has a deterring effect of people engaging in pvp with rigged ships. There should be a % to drop a rig, and maybe even a % to receive one of the rigs back in your hangar when ship is destroyed (something similar to receiving a default payment when ship is destroyed, even if it wasn't insured). Bravo CCP for adding another grind factor in eve ! Originally by: Jian Blade I still concider myself a noob. ... Old timers shouldn't assume noobs are less intelligent than you. What exactly do you think we do with our play time? Lag out in Jita all day? Good I have nothing against noobs making a buck but answer me this little question , would you fit rigs as a noob on a frigate given current prices , availability , and outcome in case you lose the said frigate ? If you would, how come your first rig was installed on a raven ? On a second line of thought, did you train for tech 2 rig skills ?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.02 16:50:00 - [138] Originally by: Vincent Almasy Originally by: Goumindong yea, my bad, i always forget that with 2 rigs the electrons sill out dps the neutrons. And are much easier to fit for all things. Its a bad idea. They our dmg them but what are the range of them? Also what happens if you add a PG increase rig and a rof rig to neutrons, and guess what you still have a free 100 calibrations, just being fair. Range on blasters is largly irrelevent. It only matters on pulse lasers and long range guns. Also there is no way that neutrons[many setups which need a PG mod to fit anyway] will be able to come close to the modified PG use[I.E. as much pg left over to fit] while still doing the damage of the electrons when rigged. The on a Megathron electron blasters + 2 rigs use a full RCU worth of PG less than Ions, let alone neutrons. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.04.02 18:56:00 - [139] -Electron Blaster Cannon I -Ion Blaster Cannon I (vs electrons: 40% more PG + 8% dmg increase) -Neutron Blaster Cannon I (vs electrons: 80% more PG + 15% dmg increase) Just running the first raw numbers i now see the problem. I never use neutrons and only every so often use ions( ships mainly tank focus), but never thought it was that much of a change for little result. The rig would be over powered if not stacking nerfed but at the same time if it stays as is, it will, more time then not, not be used at all. Gankers have enough pg problems and tankers.. well they'd use tanking mods...
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.04.02 19:27:00 - [140] Originally by: Lux Simian Salvage is currently my main earner. I sell the expensive bits, and keep low resale value. Mission wise this is quite a nice little line, probably on a par with mining. Why should us salvagers pay because you can't afford to buy a rig, or are to lazy to learn a couple of skills and go salvage for yourself? Just take an old ship, put some salvage hi's on and.. well thats pretty much it.... You only need two skills to salvage.... Hopefully you would be more than making up for lower sale prices with higher volume. As it stands now, a lot of people aren't buying rigs at all, or are only doing so very selectively. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Jian Blade	Posted - 2007.04.03 08:12:00 - [141] Edited by: Jian Blade on 03/04/2007 08:14:42 Edited by: Jian Blade on 03/04/2007 08:13:20 Originally by: NIkis Good I have nothing against noobs making a buck but answer me this little question , would you fit rigs as a noob on a frigate given current prices , availability , and outcome in case you lose the said frigate ? If you would, how come your first rig was installed on a raven ? [/ quote] To answer question 1: Not sure about everyone else but I don't feel safe in a frigate. I managed to get into a cruiser during the first week of play and headed for a ferox asap. I soon realised that everyone wants to be in a raven in this game - so that became my main goal. - Would I put a rig on a frigate? If I could see any use in having one yes! - However, who flies frigates anyway? Answer is probably people who have the skills and pvp experience to know how to fit one. In that case they may as well put rigs on it, if they are that good in the first place! Questions no 2: I have 3 ranks in Salvage right now. The 4th needs a lot of training time :( However since it's my main money earner, I need to focus on it sooner or later I guess! Also to jump onto the debate with a point of view for both sides: I do agree that some salvage is far too rare. Titanium Alloy bars are a nightmare to get hold of. Melted Capacitor Consoles are now crawling up to 1 million each, I used to sell them for 225k a few weeks back. - Seems prices are getting out of hand and some materials need to be a little more common.

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