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 KIAPieman    |
Posted - 2003.12.23 20:43:00 -
[1] The history of Venal By KIAPieman The history of Venal is a colourful one at best, many of the biggest ōshocksö that have happened in the Eve has happened right at our feet. This is a brief for all those interested in what has come before them in this region. Venal from my point of view has had at best 5 weeks of peace since KIA Corp joined in about August, the rest of it has been spent in a perpetual state of civil war or alliance/pirate faction war. This is because of our ideals that we hold and the fact that we have had such public exposure, it makes people harbour feelings for or against us, even if its nothing to do with them. This tale is from info I know 1st hand and info I have discovered through reading old posts and articles. If anything here is wrong please post any amendments as I want to be as correct as possible, please be polite as well, i have gone through the troble to write this and i will not apreciate anyone who tells me to "STFU n00b you know nothing" all i request is that people be civil with responces. Yes you may count this as PR, but the intention of this is purely for entertainment. The age of discovery. In the beginning Venal was a loose collection of free corps looking to make a living in 0.0 space. Before the VA there was a semblence of peace. Pirates would fly around and kill people when they wanted, and it was pretty much like the wild wild west. No cops, no one to call on for help, everyone for himself. But it was also a great time to be playing. You could take a couple frigs and go out to the belts in 4cfk and rack in some quick cash, or grab some miners and mine bist instead. 4cfk was the main trading hub back then, and everyone went there to buy stuff or to hunt and mine, and it was the place where you had to be careful because pirates went there too. Eventually an alliance of these corps formed the Venal alliance (VA). The fledgling VA grew with some names that are now very familiar and some that no longer exist. The VA was a semi-pirate alliance in the fact that pirates were allowed membership and would conduct operations in Tribute, Pure blind and Lonetrek. This was a happy time for the VA but it wouldnĘt last. TTI, the brainchild of Ragnar, was the 1st of the mega-corps in Eve, ōjoinedö the VA, purely for the Bistot rich belts. TTI ships started ploughing the space lanes to and from venal, further fattening the wallet of the corp. But the peace was about to be shatteredąą. Evolution began incursions into VA space to oust TTI from the ore rich region, hit and fade attacks were conducted and TTI eventually withdrew back to empire space and waited. Eventually TTI came back and fully joined the VA. It was boom time for the alliance, many many new corps had joined over the following weeks, some very prominent, some you may not have heard of, the likes of Jericho Faction, KIA Corp and a few others were readily accepted and enthusiastically jumped at the opportunities in venal. The Age of Strife A matter of a week into my corps full membership in the VA, a huge surprise attack was launched against Venal by the Fountain Alliance, led by Evolution they laid waste to ship after ship in yet more hit and fade operations. Many corps stared to feel the pinch and were not able to replace ships for combat. KIA Corp bore the brunt of the 1st weeks fighting, losing several cruisers in the 1st few days. Every victory was celebrated but they became fewer and fewer and hope began to fade away, it really looked like the VA would die that week, we didnĘt realise that we were more correct than we thought. Many people at this point started to voice concerns about TTIĘs involvement in the war, or to be more exact, its lack of involvement. Evolution had attacked to drive TTI from Venal, and we had been offered deals on ship production which, during wartime, were unattainable. Nobody could mine safely at this point, reportedly TTI were still mining up north but these reports were never proven. People started to get more vocal about lack of support from them and moral hit rock bottom. Then out of nowhere a unbelievable offer was made to Jade Constantine by the FA, if TTI and all pirate corps were expelled from Venal without exception the war would be over and they would accept the VAĘs rights to claim the region. An urgent vote was called for all the CEOĘs to attend, the motion was put forward and the corps voted to either keep fighting Evolution and let TTI and the pirates stay, or to let TTI leave for a protracted period and build up our forces to resist any future incursions. The votes were cast, a few corps voted to kick TTI for the time being (if I remember correctly, KIA Corp, Jericho Faction are 2 of them, I cant remember the rest) and the final result was 8 votes to 5, in favour of letting TTI stay and fighting on. Then probably one of the most famous lines in Eve so far was deliveredą.. in one fell swoop TTI alienated itself from all -------------------------------------------------------- |
 KIAPieman Caldari Caldari Provisions |
Posted - 2003.12.23 20:43:00 -
[2] The history of Venal By KIAPieman The history of Venal is a colourful one at best, many of the biggest ōshocksö that have happened in the Eve has happened right at our feet. This is a brief for all those interested in what has come before them in this region. Venal from my point of view has had at best 5 weeks of peace since KIA Corp joined in about August, the rest of it has been spent in a perpetual state of civil war or alliance/pirate faction war. This is because of our ideals that we hold and the fact that we have had such public exposure, it makes people harbour feelings for or against us, even if its nothing to do with them. This tale is from info I know 1st hand and info I have discovered through reading old posts and articles. If anything here is wrong please post any amendments as I want to be as correct as possible, please be polite as well, i have gone through the troble to write this and i will not apreciate anyone who tells me to "STFU n00b you know nothing" all i request is that people be civil with responces. Yes you may count this as PR, but the intention of this is purely for entertainment. The age of discovery. In the beginning Venal was a loose collection of free corps looking to make a living in 0.0 space. Before the VA there was a semblence of peace. Pirates would fly around and kill people when they wanted, and it was pretty much like the wild wild west. No cops, no one to call on for help, everyone for himself. But it was also a great time to be playing. You could take a couple frigs and go out to the belts in 4cfk and rack in some quick cash, or grab some miners and mine bist instead. 4cfk was the main trading hub back then, and everyone went there to buy stuff or to hunt and mine, and it was the place where you had to be careful because pirates went there too. Eventually an alliance of these corps formed the Venal alliance (VA). The fledgling VA grew with some names that are now very familiar and some that no longer exist. The VA was a semi-pirate alliance in the fact that pirates were allowed membership and would conduct operations in Tribute, Pure blind and Lonetrek. This was a happy time for the VA but it wouldnĘt last. TTI, the brainchild of Ragnar, was the 1st of the mega-corps in Eve, ōjoinedö the VA, purely for the Bistot rich belts. TTI ships started ploughing the space lanes to and from venal, further fattening the wallet of the corp. But the peace was about to be shatteredąą. Evolution began incursions into VA space to oust TTI from the ore rich region, hit and fade attacks were conducted and TTI eventually withdrew back to empire space and waited. Eventually TTI came back and fully joined the VA. It was boom time for the alliance, many many new corps had joined over the following weeks, some very prominent, some you may not have heard of, the likes of Jericho Faction, KIA Corp and a few others were readily accepted and enthusiastically jumped at the opportunities in venal. The Age of Strife A matter of a week into my corps full membership in the VA, a huge surprise attack was launched against Venal by the Fountain Alliance, led by Evolution they laid waste to ship after ship in yet more hit and fade operations. Many corps stared to feel the pinch and were not able to replace ships for combat. KIA Corp bore the brunt of the 1st weeks fighting, losing several cruisers in the 1st few days. Every victory was celebrated but they became fewer and fewer and hope began to fade away, it really looked like the VA would die that week, we didnĘt realise that we were more correct than we thought. Many people at this point started to voice concerns about TTIĘs involvement in the war, or to be more exact, its lack of involvement. Evolution had attacked to drive TTI from Venal, and we had been offered deals on ship production which, during wartime, were unattainable. Nobody could mine safely at this point, reportedly TTI were still mining up north but these reports were never proven. People started to get more vocal about lack of support from them and moral hit rock bottom. Then out of nowhere a unbelievable offer was made to Jade Constantine by the FA, if TTI and all pirate corps were expelled from Venal without exception the war would be over and they would accept the VAĘs rights to claim the region. An urgent vote was called for all the CEOĘs to attend, the motion was put forward and the corps voted to either keep fighting Evolution and let TTI and the pirates stay, or to let TTI leave for a protracted period and build up our forces to resist any future incursions. The votes were cast, a few corps voted to kick TTI for the time being (if I remember correctly, KIA Corp, Jericho Faction are 2 of them, I cant remember the rest) and the final result was 8 votes to 5, in favour of letting TTI stay and fighting on. Then probably one of the most famous lines in Eve so far was deliveredą.. in one fell swoop TTI alienated itself from all -------------------------------------------------- |
 KIAPieman |
Posted - 2003.12.23 20:46:00 -
[3] Edited by: KIAPieman on 23/12/2003 20:47:55 the corps that had pledged support to them in a democratic vote, because 5 corps had dared to vote against them they declared war on them and placed a bounty of 100 million on JadeĘs head paid in 5 million instalments per corpse. Immediately another swifter vote was called and its was unanimous, we were at war again. TTI then made a move which I will never understand, they invited M3g4 to join their Northern alliance, so along with Space invaders and Paladins of the red skull they had all the major pirates at that time. Calling themselves the Northern Alliance, they clamed Venal for their own uses and expected to sweep the remnants of the old VA away. Little did they know that hostilities had ceased with the FA and all the effort went into showing TTI what for. With a new found sense of vigour we managed to recover out losses and become stronger in the process, many messages of goodwill and offers of military support were passed to us, corporations with no real interest in venal before began to offer ships and equipment to the alliance. Hope was quickly rising, driven on by an Intense anger and hatred of the way TTI believed they could sweep the little corps under the carpet, well it didnĘt happen. After a few days the foundations had been laid, all it needed was for the 1st brick to be laid on the structure that would become the New Venal Alliance. Jade pooled all her resources sorting out the admin side whilst we fighters prepared for the impending offensive, the risks we would be taking were great, but failure would be a failure to the citizens of eve, it needed to be stopped there and theną The great stand-off, it was like an old western, wit the NVA and the NA staring each other down, it was just a matter of time. Then M3G4 launched into the NVA with gusto, but something was different in this war, we were not fighting for someone elseĘs survival, we were fighting for our own, this is probably why in this war the NVA had some of its finest moments in combat. The war was taken to M3G4, we didnĘt sit back as many In the NA must have thought we would. Hit and fade attack were conducted everywhere and a steady pile of corpses was being built up in many hangers. After about 2 weeks of fighting the news I never expected to hear came out, M3G4 was dead, a shell of its former self, the self styled Biomass Cartel was created from the defecting members, who had true to pirate form, stolen everything from M3G4, the then left Venal space claming no interest in it. Smoked, the CEO of M3G4 seemed a broken but proud man, accepting defeat he left Venal for calmer waters vowing to change his image, and no doubt to get revenge on those who did him wrong. Seeing his allies falling or leaving and losing more and more confrontations, it finally must have dawned upon Ragnar what he had done and he decided to step down as CEO and hand control to GunnyP. Peace in our timeą. The end of the TTI war signalled a time of prosperity for the NVA, with the shipping lanes open again the rarer minerals in short supply were spread throughout Lonetrek again, and the corps in the NVA grew richer and richer, soon all the corps were mainly flying battleships, the NVA fleet was huge beyond belief. We were prosperous. Then we started to hear about rumours, CFS were calling us pirates, the CA had ambitions on Venal. A few of the NVA pushed to go on the offensive, to show people that the NVA is no walkover. We were called warmongers and griefers, told that why attack when we could do things diplomatically. A couple of members left due to this but it wasnĘt something new. If we had paid attention to it, we could have been a bit more prepared for what was to comeą. We were made aware of a Biomass Cartel fleet heading to NVA territory, forming a fleet in response we waited for them. Then a terrible secret was revealed. Terra Nova Corp, led by Hupa, defected just before Biomass jumped in, locking down battleships of friends and former allies, it was a wholesale slaughter. That moment lit the fuseą Biomass incursions became more and more regular and the NVA stepped up war production a notch. The war started to spread down through Pure Blind and into northern Lonetrek. Then one day the NVA made a fatal but necessary mistakeą A fleet of 20 + ships was dispatched to Obe to attack biomassĘ base of operations, then the startling truth was discovered, whist they were in Obe venal was open to a Biomass counter attack. The fleet turned about and headed back home. A huge blockade was established and the fleet waited. After several hours of tedious waiting, we had reports that biomass was about to jump, everything went quiet as people prepared to go full tilt onto the enemy, then looking at local i sat open jawed, 114 people in local, chatted filled then channels as pople weighed up the options available to us, we voted to stay, many hours of camping passed, many peop -------------------------------------------------------- |
KIAPieman Caldari Caldari Provisions |
Posted - 2003.12.23 20:46:00 -
[4] Edited by: KIAPieman on 23/12/2003 20:47:55 the corps that had pledged support to them in a democratic vote, because 5 corps had dared to vote against them they declared war on them and placed a bounty of 100 million on JadeĘs head paid in 5 million instalments per corpse. Immediately another swifter vote was called and its was unanimous, we were at war again. TTI then made a move which I will never understand, they invited M3g4 to join their Northern alliance, so along with Space invaders and Paladins of the red skull they had all the major pirates at that time. Calling themselves the Northern Alliance, they clamed Venal for their own uses and expected to sweep the remnants of the old VA away. Little did they know that hostilities had ceased with the FA and all the effort went into showing TTI what for. With a new found sense of vigour we managed to recover out losses and become stronger in the process, many messages of goodwill and offers of military support were passed to us, corporations with no real interest in venal before began to offer ships and equipment to the alliance. Hope was quickly rising, driven on by an Intense anger and hatred of the way TTI believed they could sweep the little corps under the carpet, well it didnĘt happen. After a few days the foundations had been laid, all it needed was for the 1st brick to be laid on the structure that would become the New Venal Alliance. Jade pooled all her resources sorting out the admin side whilst we fighters prepared for the impending offensive, the risks we would be taking were great, but failure would be a failure to the citizens of eve, it needed to be stopped there and theną The great stand-off, it was like an old western, wit the NVA and the NA staring each other down, it was just a matter of time. Then M3G4 launched into the NVA with gusto, but something was different in this war, we were not fighting for someone elseĘs survival, we were fighting for our own, this is probably why in this war the NVA had some of its finest moments in combat. The war was taken to M3G4, we didnĘt sit back as many In the NA must have thought we would. Hit and fade attack were conducted everywhere and a steady pile of corpses was being built up in many hangers. After about 2 weeks of fighting the news I never expected to hear came out, M3G4 was dead, a shell of its former self, the self styled Biomass Cartel was created from the defecting members, who had true to pirate form, stolen everything from M3G4, the then left Venal space claming no interest in it. Smoked, the CEO of M3G4 seemed a broken but proud man, accepting defeat he left Venal for calmer waters vowing to change his image, and no doubt to get revenge on those who did him wrong. Seeing his allies falling or leaving and losing more and more confrontations, it finally must have dawned upon Ragnar what he had done and he decided to step down as CEO and hand control to GunnyP. Peace in our timeą. The end of the TTI war signalled a time of prosperity for the NVA, with the shipping lanes open again the rarer minerals in short supply were spread throughout Lonetrek again, and the corps in the NVA grew richer and richer, soon all the corps were mainly flying battleships, the NVA fleet was huge beyond belief. We were prosperous. Then we started to hear about rumours, CFS were calling us pirates, the CA had ambitions on Venal. A few of the NVA pushed to go on the offensive, to show people that the NVA is no walkover. We were called warmongers and griefers, told that why attack when we could do things diplomatically. A couple of members left due to this but it wasnĘt something new. If we had paid attention to it, we could have been a bit more prepared for what was to comeą. We were made aware of a Biomass Cartel fleet heading to NVA territory, forming a fleet in response we waited for them. Then a terrible secret was revealed. Terra Nova Corp, led by Hupa, defected just before Biomass jumped in, locking down battleships of friends and former allies, it was a wholesale slaughter. That moment lit the fuseą Biomass incursions became more and more regular and the NVA stepped up war production a notch. The war started to spread down through Pure Blind and into northern Lonetrek. Then one day the NVA made a fatal but necessary mistakeą A fleet of 20 + ships was dispatched to Obe to attack biomassĘ base of operations, then the startling truth was discovered, whist they were in Obe venal was open to a Biomass counter attack. The fleet turned about and headed back home. A huge blockade was established and the fleet waited. After several hours of tedious waiting, we had reports that biomass was about to jump, everything went quiet as people prepared to go full tilt onto the enemy, then looking at local i sat open jawed, 114 people in local, chatted filled then channels as pople weighed up the options available to us, we voted to stay, many hours of camping passed, many peop -------------------------------------------------- |
 KIAPieman |
Posted - 2003.12.23 20:47:00 -
[5] the offensive, finaly the fleet commander ordered the fleet to pull back the next system and jump back in, hopefully catching biomass unawares. Unfortunately it failed, many ships were destroyed and the NVA suffered its worst ever defeat. But times change, people have learned, and the NVA is now far far stronger than it ever was. Hope springs eternalą This is what has led us to this point, the NVA is a strong regional power and is growing stronger, with the likes of Rona, Cyberdyne, and Oberon, and with the leadership qualities of Jericho Faction and the unshakeable spirit of KIA Corp along with the myriad of other corps bringing their own special qualities, we have a varied and well working bunch who I think would be willing to die (in game!!) to keep our alliance going. I hope this entertains some, informs others, and bring back a few memories of times past, but we have to look towards the future. To quote a famous advertising sloganąą THE FUTUREĘS BRIGHT, THE FUTUREĘS VENAL. -------------------------------------------------------- |
KIAPieman Caldari Caldari Provisions |
Posted - 2003.12.23 20:47:00 -
[6] the offensive, finaly the fleet commander ordered the fleet to pull back the next system and jump back in, hopefully catching biomass unawares. Unfortunately it failed, many ships were destroyed and the NVA suffered its worst ever defeat. But times change, people have learned, and the NVA is now far far stronger than it ever was. Hope springs eternalą This is what has led us to this point, the NVA is a strong regional power and is growing stronger, with the likes of Rona, Cyberdyne, and Oberon, and with the leadership qualities of Jericho Faction and the unshakeable spirit of KIA Corp along with the myriad of other corps bringing their own special qualities, we have a varied and well working bunch who I think would be willing to die (in game!!) to keep our alliance going. I hope this entertains some, informs others, and bring back a few memories of times past, but we have to look towards the future. To quote a famous advertising sloganąą THE FUTUREĘS BRIGHT, THE FUTUREĘS VENAL. -------------------------------------------------- |
 Admiral IceBlock |
Posted - 2003.12.23 20:54:00 -
[7] interesting... "We brake for nobody" |
 Admiral IceBlock Caldari Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance |
Posted - 2003.12.23 20:54:00 -
[8] interesting... Support POS Overhaul - Read it NOW! |
 Li ShangYin |
Posted - 2003.12.23 21:17:00 -
[9] let's see now : TTI isn't the first megacorp in EVE, Endless propably hold that title with 300+ members at one point(that's pre alpha for you kiddos out there). TTI's presence in Venal also started earlier than what you describe, TTI and its ally Xanadu were in Venal from around late may/early june, when Xanadu left because NPC ratings were on for a while TTI stayed back. VA at that point was more reminiscient of a local pub than an alliance, there was little in terms of rules, laws, regulations and coordination, just a bunch of corps in the area chatting together and trying to copy what Stain and other regions were starting to do. To this day the alliance channels remind one of swiss cheese when looking at what kind of secure venues they provide for the members... The legality of the group of people who did that rather funny vote is also one that could be discussed at lenght, there was afterall no set record on how such a council should be divided, how it's power should be shared or even what and who could call it together. While quite a few corps complained and whined in later days of the conflicts about the lack of TTI support noone actually asked us for any support at any point in time. There was noone who said let's do this guys, there was noone who asked for a billion or two to provide funding for lost ships, heck how could such a funding even have been controlled when there was nothing that the VA was built on but a couple chat rooms where some corp people who hang out in the same general area of space were in. As you said, some corps said they don't mind having TTI present, however those same corps that TTI then declared war on did state quite clearly that they had no confidence or intrest in having TTI present anymore. Why should a 200 man corp want to stick around with a couple minor corps who decide to vote them out? Why should such a vote be made to begin with? One for all, all for one right? Oh wait, that only applies unless we might kick out one to save the rest. And no, I'm not gonna go into the suicidal strategical motives that a successful vote would have created, those should also be fairly obvious to anyone with a decentsized brain that is functioning. Just ask yourself this, you are at war with a strong enemy, they offer you a simple choice, if you remove the best fighters and the richest people from your alliance you will be left alone, now what possible ending would a successful vote have? ___________________________________ A spring day at the edge of the world. On the edge of the world once more the day slants. The oriole cries, as though it were its own tears Which damp even the topmost blossoms on the tree. -- Li Shang-yin, Exile, ninth century A.D. |
 Li ShangYin Chung Kuo |
Posted - 2003.12.23 21:17:00 -
[10] let's see now : TTI isn't the first megacorp in EVE, Endless propably hold that title with 300+ members at one point(that's pre alpha for you kiddos out there). TTI's presence in Venal also started earlier than what you describe, TTI and its ally Xanadu were in Venal from around late may/early june, when Xanadu left because NPC ratings were on for a while TTI stayed back. VA at that point was more reminiscient of a local pub than an alliance, there was little in terms of rules, laws, regulations and coordination, just a bunch of corps in the area chatting together and trying to copy what Stain and other regions were starting to do. To this day the alliance channels remind one of swiss cheese when looking at what kind of secure venues they provide for the members... The legality of the group of people who did that rather funny vote is also one that could be discussed at lenght, there was afterall no set record on how such a council should be divided, how it's power should be shared or even what and who could call it together. While quite a few corps complained and whined in later days of the conflicts about the lack of TTI support noone actually asked us for any support at any point in time. There was noone who said let's do this guys, there was noone who asked for a billion or two to provide funding for lost ships, heck how could such a funding even have been controlled when there was nothing that the VA was built on but a couple chat rooms where some corp people who hang out in the same general area of space were in. As you said, some corps said they don't mind having TTI present, however those same corps that TTI then declared war on did state quite clearly that they had no confidence or intrest in having TTI present anymore. Why should a 200 man corp want to stick around with a couple minor corps who decide to vote them out? Why should such a vote be made to begin with? One for all, all for one right? Oh wait, that only applies unless we might kick out one to save the rest. And no, I'm not gonna go into the suicidal strategical motives that a successful vote would have created, those should also be fairly obvious to anyone with a decentsized brain that is functioning. Just ask yourself this, you are at war with a strong enemy, they offer you a simple choice, if you remove the best fighters and the richest people from your alliance you will be left alone, now what possible ending would a successful vote have? ___________________________________ A spring day at the edge of the world. On the edge of the world once more the day slants. The oriole cries, as though it were its own tears Which damp even the topmost blossoms on the tree. -- Li Shang-yin, Exile, ninth century A.D. |
 Viceroy |
Posted - 2003.12.23 21:25:00 -
[11] Isnt this like the 3rd venal history thread? |
 Viceroy Evolution Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2003.12.23 21:25:00 -
[12] Isnt this like the 3rd venal history thread? |
 KIAInkZ |
Posted - 2003.12.23 21:29:00 -
[13] Venal has the best history though :) --- Forums/Killboard - http://www.kia-corp.co.uk |
 KIAInkZ Deep Core Mining Inc. |
Posted - 2003.12.23 21:29:00 -
[14] Venal has the best history though :) --- Forums/Killboard - http://www.kia-corp.co.uk |
 Sun Wu |
Posted - 2003.12.23 21:33:00 -
[15] What older brother Li is refering to is a simple strategic form of causing tension within the enemy lines through misinformation. The move by the attacking forces to try to create a gap within the Venal forces is a classic example to study. The analysis made by the attackers in this case shows that venal just like any other society is built around certain groups of people. To a great extent in venal's case pirates fill out the position of the best fighters within the alliance, while TTI certainly at that point was one of the strongest financial entitites within the whole of EVE. As you can tell the names of the other corps who were present are forgotten by people who even to this day try to survive in Venal. These same nameless people, lets call them the masses, consisting of minor corps aswell as corps like jericho who at that point were insignificant from a military and monetary viewpoint are also where the attackers decide to strike. Now what happens is obviously known, Jade runs along the path painted by the attackers and indeed tries to cause the very thing they wanted to happen, she tries to get the alliance to vote out its prime moneymakers and military might. Mission accomplished, the defenders are not only thrown into disarray, she also manages to take away what trust might have existed within the alliance prior to that point. And above all, she has won the war for the attackers since there from that point on was not even a potential source of financial wealth for the defense from TTI, nor was there any military help from said pirates. If we analyse the remaining question and its potential outcomes, what if the vote had succeeded? The result would have widely been what it is now, Venal would even then have fallen at that same point in time, as there is no obvious safe way aside from not letting that vote even come into existence. Voting out the fighters and the money simply would have been suicide, why would anyone attacking a mineralrich region suddenly stop after the regions prime defenders and potential financial support have just dissapeared from said alliance, to be placed in a situation of quasi civil war within the region, while the same region is also trying to defend. That is all for now, as we know Venal is still a warzone, as are the regions close to it, piracy is still commonday and the crossways out of empire into the regions neighboring and leading into venal have been under pirate control whenever I have pointed my scanners that way. |
 Sun Wu Caldari Evolution |
Posted - 2003.12.23 21:33:00 -
[16] What older brother Li is refering to is a simple strategic form of causing tension within the enemy lines through misinformation. The move by the attacking forces to try to create a gap within the Venal forces is a classic example to study. The analysis made by the attackers in this case shows that venal just like any other society is built around certain groups of people. To a great extent in venal's case pirates fill out the position of the best fighters within the alliance, while TTI certainly at that point was one of the strongest financial entitites within the whole of EVE. As you can tell the names of the other corps who were present are forgotten by people who even to this day try to survive in Venal. These same nameless people, lets call them the masses, consisting of minor corps aswell as corps like jericho who at that point were insignificant from a military and monetary viewpoint are also where the attackers decide to strike. Now what happens is obviously known, Jade runs along the path painted by the attackers and indeed tries to cause the very thing they wanted to happen, she tries to get the alliance to vote out its prime moneymakers and military might. Mission accomplished, the defenders are not only thrown into disarray, she also manages to take away what trust might have existed within the alliance prior to that point. And above all, she has won the war for the attackers since there from that point on was not even a potential source of financial wealth for the defense from TTI, nor was there any military help from said pirates. If we analyse the remaining question and its potential outcomes, what if the vote had succeeded? The result would have widely been what it is now, Venal would even then have fallen at that same point in time, as there is no obvious safe way aside from not letting that vote even come into existence. Voting out the fighters and the money simply would have been suicide, why would anyone attacking a mineralrich region suddenly stop after the regions prime defenders and potential financial support have just dissapeared from said alliance, to be placed in a situation of quasi civil war within the region, while the same region is also trying to defend. That is all for now, as we know Venal is still a warzone, as are the regions close to it, piracy is still commonday and the crossways out of empire into the regions neighboring and leading into venal have been under pirate control whenever I have pointed my scanners that way. |
 Lefevre |
Posted - 2003.12.23 21:58:00 -
[17] Edited by: Lefevre on 23/12/2003 22:01:22 Hi all.. for those of you who do not know me I am Lefevre. I was a member of the VA and a member of the pirate corp Andras Pandaemonium. Andras Pandaemonium was a small pirate corp dedicated to having fun while being pirates. Most of us were in cruisers so we were one of the more powerful corps in VA. First of all I want to say good work Pieman. It must have taken some time to gather all that information. I think there is a small mistake here:
If I remember right the only corps to be expelled was TTI and SPVD. Us, the smaller pirate corps could still stay in VA but we would not be allowed to pirate in certain regions (I can't remember what regions). Other then that I think it's very accurate.. As a final word.. Merry Christmas New Venal Alliance : ) Teddybears |
 Lefevre Caldari Temptation inc. |
Posted - 2003.12.23 21:58:00 -
[18] Edited by: Lefevre on 23/12/2003 22:01:22 Hi all.. for those of you who do not know me I am Lefevre. I was a member of the VA and a member of the pirate corp Andras Pandaemonium. Andras Pandaemonium was a small pirate corp dedicated to having fun while being pirates. Most of us were in cruisers so we were one of the more powerful corps in VA. First of all I want to say good work Pieman. It must have taken some time to gather all that information. I think there is a small mistake here:
If I remember right the only corps to be expelled was TTI and SPVD. Us, the smaller pirate corps could still stay in VA but we would not be allowed to pirate in certain regions (I can't remember what regions). Other then that I think it's very accurate.. As a final word.. Merry Christmas New Venal Alliance : ) |
Jade Constantine |
Posted - 2003.12.23 21:59:00 -
[19] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 23/12/2003 22:00:10 Dream on Sun Wu, your analysis is burdened with a child's simplicity. Your reasoning is borrowed third hand from a storybook, and furthermore, m'dear, you think to fly on gilded wings in the face of established fact. Not going to happen. Far from being the military "might" and financial "muscle" of the VA; the former TTI was an albatross around its neck, with CEO Ragnar dabbling in power politics and assassinations and then hiding behind a shield of VA corps to escape the consequences of his actions. When asked to flex financial muscle in defense of the alliance Taggart refused. Offering only to make laughable BYOM deals to fighters in a warzone. In terms of active participation Taggart was relatively small. And consistantly hindered by rather cowardly military leadership in the form of Roark/Ragnar. Taggart brought the storm to the VA. And refused to pay the piper. It was no surprise that a confidence vote in some form was heard. I asked Ragnar to match my personal investment in proportion of corporation size. He refused, and prefered to threaten VA corps with unspecified "bad things" if they refused to vote his way. This all came out in the faithful council meeting... But for all that, the VA chose to fight to the last with Taggart a member. All choose to honour that vote. Except Ragnar. He declared the council and vote void and powerless and declared pogram and formation of the Piratical alliance. The rest is history. And none of those facts are open to question given the massive weight of factual, chat-log, and anecdotal evidence backing them up. Time for you to go back to school Sun Wu. Love and peace JF Public Forum |
 Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2003.12.23 21:59:00 -
[20] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 23/12/2003 22:00:10 Dream on Sun Wu, your analysis is burdened with a child's simplicity. Your reasoning is borrowed third hand from a storybook, and furthermore, m'dear, you think to fly on gilded wings in the face of established fact. Not going to happen. Far from being the military "might" and financial "muscle" of the VA; the former TTI was an albatross around its neck, with CEO Ragnar dabbling in power politics and assassinations and then hiding behind a shield of VA corps to escape the consequences of his actions. When asked to flex financial muscle in defense of the alliance Taggart refused. Offering only to make laughable BYOM deals to fighters in a warzone. In terms of active participation Taggart was relatively small. And consistantly hindered by rather cowardly military leadership in the form of Roark/Ragnar. Taggart brought the storm to the VA. And refused to pay the piper. It was no surprise that a confidence vote in some form was heard. I asked Ragnar to match my personal investment in proportion of corporation size. He refused, and prefered to threaten VA corps with unspecified "bad things" if they refused to vote his way. This all came out in the faithful council meeting... But for all that, the VA chose to fight to the last with Taggart a member. All choose to honour that vote. Except Ragnar. He declared the council and vote void and powerless and declared pogram and formation of the Piratical alliance. The rest is history. And none of those facts are open to question given the massive weight of factual, chat-log, and anecdotal evidence backing them up. Time for you to go back to school Sun Wu. Love and peace JF Public Forum |
KIAPieman |
Posted - 2003.12.23 22:12:00 -
[21] Edited by: KIAPieman on 23/12/2003 22:15:14 Edited by: KIAPieman on 23/12/2003 22:13:28 Li ShangYin, i am posting the facts that i know to the best of my knowledge, i did it for purly entertainment value, if you dotn like it then why post? and to any faults you picked out, as i said TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE Lefevre: thanks for that info, ill rewrite the relevent parts -------------------------------------------------------- |
KIAPieman Caldari Caldari Provisions |
Posted - 2003.12.23 22:12:00 -
[22] Edited by: KIAPieman on 23/12/2003 22:15:14 Edited by: KIAPieman on 23/12/2003 22:13:28 Li ShangYin, i am posting the facts that i know to the best of my knowledge, i did it for purly entertainment value, if you dotn like it then why post? and to any faults you picked out, as i said TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE Lefevre: thanks for that info, ill rewrite the relevent parts -------------------------------------------------- |
 Jade Constantine |
Posted - 2003.12.23 22:17:00 -
[23] Pieman, Li ShangYin is one of the ex-taggart "intelligensia" (sic) that refused to wake up and smell the quafe at the close of the venal civil war. As a result, historical revisionism and hokey political analysis has become his forte. Doubtless he has convinced himself that "iron duke" Ragnar, was leading 20 battleship taggart defense armadas against Evolution at H-PA29 every night for a month before being betrayed by the oily VA council (or some such rot). Word to the wise; don't waste too much breath on debating with the true believers, faith (even profoundly misplaced) has a way of allow men to see strange vistas of alternative realities. Let's allow Li ShangYin to walk across the hot coals of his own folly in quiet respect for the mentally deranged. Love and peace JF Public Forum |
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2003.12.23 22:17:00 -
[24] Pieman, Li ShangYin is one of the ex-taggart "intelligensia" (sic) that refused to wake up and smell the quafe at the close of the venal civil war. As a result, historical revisionism and hokey political analysis has become his forte. Doubtless he has convinced himself that "iron duke" Ragnar, was leading 20 battleship taggart defense armadas against Evolution at H-PA29 every night for a month before being betrayed by the oily VA council (or some such rot). Word to the wise; don't waste too much breath on debating with the true believers, faith (even profoundly misplaced) has a way of allow men to see strange vistas of alternative realities. Let's allow Li ShangYin to walk across the hot coals of his own folly in quiet respect for the mentally deranged. Love and peace JF Public Forum |
Viceroy |
Posted - 2003.12.23 22:58:00 -
[25] Jade has been awakened, run for cover!  |
Viceroy Evolution Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2003.12.23 22:58:00 -
[26] Jade has been awakened, run for cover! |
 Jade Constantine |
Posted - 2003.12.23 23:53:00 -
[27] ;) JF Public Forum |
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2003.12.23 23:53:00 -
[28] ;) JF Public Forum |
 KIAPieman |
Posted - 2003.12.24 01:40:00 -
[29] im gunna give this a good look over and re write today whilst im at work, i wont have anythign else to do....... saying that i should get to sleep. -------------------------------------------------------- |
KIAPieman Caldari Caldari Provisions |
Posted - 2003.12.24 01:40:00 -
[30] im gunna give this a good look over and re write today whilst im at work, i wont have anythign else to do....... saying that i should get to sleep. -------------------------------------------------- |
 Reah |
Posted - 2003.12.24 03:10:00 -
[31] nice story etc seems pretty acurate and stuff neway, i could be wrong, but dident FA help quite a bit in the NVA vs NA war? |
 Reah Caldari |
Posted - 2003.12.24 03:10:00 -
[32] nice story etc seems pretty acurate and stuff neway, i could be wrong, but dident FA help quite a bit in the NVA vs NA war? |
Femme Fatal |
Posted - 2003.12.24 03:30:00 -
[33] Just like I predicted their escape into Venal, I forsaw their running back into empire space once we followed. Run Roark Run.  Nice writeup Pieman |
 Femme Fatal Going Limp |
Posted - 2003.12.24 03:30:00 -
[34] Just like I predicted their escape into Venal, I forsaw their running back into empire space once we followed. Run Roark Run. Nice writeup Pieman |
Mongo Peck |
Posted - 2003.12.24 04:53:00 -
[35] Venal ... who ........... chased them .... beat them and got the tee shirt ..... Mongo speaks !! |
 Mongo Peck Requiem of Hades |
Posted - 2003.12.24 04:53:00 -
[36] Venal ... who ........... chased them .... beat them and got the tee shirt ..... Mongo speaks !! |
Jade Constantine |
Posted - 2003.12.24 05:22:00 -
[37] I think you meant "beat" as in "beat ... a hasty retreat" mongo. I remember the scenites petitioning for mercy at the close of the civil war. Silly of us to grant it with the benefit of hindsight, but hey, these things happen eh? Love and peace JF Public Forum |
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2003.12.24 05:22:00 -
[38] I think you meant "beat" as in "beat ... a hasty retreat" mongo. I remember the scenites petitioning for mercy at the close of the civil war. Silly of us to grant it with the benefit of hindsight, but hey, these things happen eh? Love and peace JF Public Forum |
Li ShangYin |
Posted - 2003.12.24 07:01:00 -
[39]Ah, but you are thus mistaken, I know fairly well how large the TTI military was at any given time, and even what they were doing. TTI never was afterall a military might, we were simply businessmen. As such ISK is and was what we were making, which brings us to you asking for more support. Ragnar denied it, as you are well aware of, and for a simple reason. He so no legitimate basis for the council to begin with, nor did he see any point in why minor corps such as Jericho should have equal powers in such a council, if at the same time the larger corps would be providing monetary and military support based on their size. Either everyone provides equal support and has equal voting power or voting power is decided based on size and support provided through logistics and financial deals and aids, simple thinking really. As for Sun's analysis, while you may not like it it does get to the point, you tried to vote out both military and monetary powers from your side, while being on the beating end of a war of agression. Those same military pirates that you were kicking out then are still at war with you are they not? ___________________________________ A spring day at the edge of the world. On the edge of the world once more the day slants. The oriole cries, as though it were its own tears Which damp even the topmost blossoms on the tree. -- Li Shang-yin, Exile, ninth century A.D. |
Li ShangYin Chung Kuo |
Posted - 2003.12.24 07:01:00 -
[40]Ah, but you are thus mistaken, I know fairly well how large the TTI military was at any given time, and even what they were doing. TTI never was afterall a military might, we were simply businessmen. As such ISK is and was what we were making, which brings us to you asking for more support. Ragnar denied it, as you are well aware of, and for a simple reason. He so no legitimate basis for the council to begin with, nor did he see any point in why minor corps such as Jericho should have equal powers in such a council, if at the same time the larger corps would be providing monetary and military support based on their size. Either everyone provides equal support and has equal voting power or voting power is decided based on size and support provided through logistics and financial deals and aids, simple thinking really. As for Sun's analysis, while you may not like it it does get to the point, you tried to vote out both military and monetary powers from your side, while being on the beating end of a war of agression. Those same military pirates that you were kicking out then are still at war with you are they not? ___________________________________ A spring day at the edge of the world. On the edge of the world once more the day slants. The oriole cries, as though it were its own tears Which damp even the topmost blossoms on the tree. -- Li Shang-yin, Exile, ninth century A.D. |
 Reverend Necrona |
Posted - 2003.12.24 10:08:00 -
[41] It's a biased view, but i'm sure with your third hand information it's how you saw it. TTI not lending enough support? Ok let me list for you the main pilots (and if i miss someone i am truly sorry, not a fantastic memory) that fought for the side of the Venal Alliance during the fight with Evolution and certain FA corps. Qball - Cyberdine The Wrench - Cyberdine Tehel Necrona (:D) - TTI GunnyP - TTI MArkA - TTI Tigge - TTI th3 pr34ch3r - Occussa 2 - 3 other Ocussa pilots - do not recall names i am truly sorry. Mastema - Space Invaders Adnreas Pendrom Members - say 3 (possibly more and yet again i cannot remember names) Roark - TTI Ragnar - TTI (same person as Roark) Indigo - Space Invaders Activor Fraust- TTI Renox - TTI KIA Corp - 5-10 - they were their that i can admit - i fully respected you guys before your distinct lack of memory came about. These were re-occuring members in the fight, i know i have missed others from both TTI and other corps. Please note NO JERICO bar Athule who was involved in two engagements out of about 15. TTI not commiting enough? I'm insulted. Oh and also how dare you indicate the NVA fought off the Northern Alliance - i seem to recall evolution being the ones defeating us and m3g4 on the key engagements. Killing merckilers Raven then Scorp 2nights in a row. The huge fight were ragnar got accused of running at the gate in Y-4 - although it was a tactical move, seeing as the entire evolution fleet was targeting him. Good victories for evolution that i can admit and that i will - but i will not condone you claiming glory, portraying yourselves as heroes when it was those with a shared interest that did it all for you. Your view is biased and i am sorry if i come across angry - but from where i am standing history have been re-wrote by those that were friends with the only victors in that conflict (Evolution). Oh and Jade - before you hit off with 20 lines about how i'm a bitter old hasbeen and that i am highyl dillusional - i didn't bring this up. I'm merley defending my friends and their integrity. You seem to be quick to put me down when i have my say, or others for that matter, but you constantly overlook who's bringing up these debates the majority of the time. Sorry if i wasn't polite. Necro |
 Reverend Necrona Minmatar FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance |
Posted - 2003.12.24 10:08:00 -
[42] It's a biased view, but i'm sure with your third hand information it's how you saw it. TTI not lending enough support? Ok let me list for you the main pilots (and if i miss someone i am truly sorry, not a fantastic memory) that fought for the side of the Venal Alliance during the fight with Evolution and certain FA corps. Qball - Cyberdine The Wrench - Cyberdine Tehel Necrona (:D) - TTI GunnyP - TTI MArkA - TTI Tigge - TTI th3 pr34ch3r - Occussa 2 - 3 other Ocussa pilots - do not recall names i am truly sorry. Mastema - Space Invaders Adnreas Pendrom Members - say 3 (possibly more and yet again i cannot remember names) Roark - TTI Ragnar - TTI (same person as Roark) Indigo - Space Invaders Activor Fraust- TTI Renox - TTI KIA Corp - 5-10 - they were their that i can admit - i fully respected you guys before your distinct lack of memory came about. These were re-occuring members in the fight, i know i have missed others from both TTI and other corps. Please note NO JERICO bar Athule who was involved in two engagements out of about 15. TTI not commiting enough? I'm insulted. Oh and also how dare you indicate the NVA fought off the Northern Alliance - i seem to recall evolution being the ones defeating us and m3g4 on the key engagements. Killing merckilers Raven then Scorp 2nights in a row. The huge fight were ragnar got accused of running at the gate in Y-4 - although it was a tactical move, seeing as the entire evolution fleet was targeting him. Good victories for evolution that i can admit and that i will - but i will not condone you claiming glory, portraying yourselves as heroes when it was those with a shared interest that did it all for you. Your view is biased and i am sorry if i come across angry - but from where i am standing history have been re-wrote by those that were friends with the only victors in that conflict (Evolution). Oh and Jade - before you hit off with 20 lines about how i'm a bitter old hasbeen and that i am highyl dillusional - i didn't bring this up. I'm merley defending my friends and their integrity. You seem to be quick to put me down when i have my say, or others for that matter, but you constantly overlook who's bringing up these debates the majority of the time. Sorry if i wasn't polite. Necro |
Nasty Ways |
Posted - 2003.12.24 10:53:00 -
[43] you can remember 7 fighters (including ragnar - lol) out of... what? 200+ members TTI had at this time? omg the ownage!  --- who didnt know that there are NO FAIR FIGHTS ? |
 Nasty Ways Caldari |
Posted - 2003.12.24 10:53:00 -
[44] you can remember 7 fighters (including ragnar - lol) out of... what? 200+ members TTI had at this time? omg the ownage! --- who didnt know that there are NO FAIR FIGHTS ? |
Anla Shok |
Posted - 2003.12.24 11:08:00 -
[45] necro, go into a corner and be ashamed... you forgot me, your old commander.. nasty, you know very well about the military strength of TTI at that time. even though we were not a military corp and the membercount was somewhat misleading we were able to bring more ships into the battles than the other corps there. (no offense guys). just not many had PvP experience.. and there was also this illusion that things can be solved in some big battle when the tactics were actually much different.. |
 Anla Shok Evolution Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2003.12.24 11:08:00 -
[46] necro, go into a corner and be ashamed... you forgot me, your old commander.. nasty, you know very well about the military strength of TTI at that time. even though we were not a military corp and the membercount was somewhat misleading we were able to bring more ships into the battles than the other corps there. (no offense guys). just not many had PvP experience.. and there was also this illusion that things can be solved in some big battle when the tactics were actually much different.. |
Revolution |
Posted - 2003.12.24 11:20:00 -
[47] Why hello there |
 Revolution Amarr Evolution Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2003.12.24 11:20:00 -
[48] Why hello there |
SirMolle |
Posted - 2003.12.24 11:28:00 -
[49] Proper cronology; 1. EVOL goes into Venal, scouting, gets attacked and told to leave by Venal Guardians. Evol stays and kills a few. TTI, and more specifically, Ragnar offers us to help kill Venal people. 2. EVOL finds what it is looking for; TTI. Here follows a 2 day delay period where we keep killing TTI, and whenever their officers approach us, we simply respond with "Thx, will look into it" 3. TTI seeks refuge with VA, as it understands we are shooting TTI ships, some battle occur. 4. Evolution goes off to Fountain with a few friends, here starts the FA story. 5. Evolution goes off up to Venal again to locate and kill TTI after we learn of the mercenary contracs on EVOL and FA. 6. Battles, battles, battles, VA is suffering, TTI is hiding. 7. More FA corps come up to fight alongside EVOL, namely; Xanady, CNXI, CoC, BladeRunners, and a few scattered pilots. 8. Some major fleet battles occur, VA takes the plunge in most of these. 9. Art Dillingja of FA, offers VA a opportunity to get out of the war; Expell TTI, SPVD (and some others piratical ones whom i cant remember), and FA will call off the war and help rebuild VA to NVA. 10. VA goes to meeting with the offers, the vote happens, which TTI "wins". 11. Ragnar shoots himself in the head by declaring the vote null and void and setting bounty on the naysayers. 12. All of VA goes against TTI, FA forms up with the now NVA to kill TTI. 13. TTI hires Scenites and m3g4 to aid in the fights. 14. Battles, battles, battles. NVA gains ground and numbers. 15. Ragnar flees and TTI "dies" 16. M4G4 is robbed by former members and M3G4 surrenders. 17. NVA stands as victor. Enjoy. |
 SirMolle Evolution Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2003.12.24 11:28:00 -
[50] Proper cronology; 1. EVOL goes into Venal, scouting, gets attacked and told to leave by Venal Guardians. Evol stays and kills a few. TTI, and more specifically, Ragnar offers us to help kill Venal people. 2. EVOL finds what it is looking for; TTI. Here follows a 2 day delay period where we keep killing TTI, and whenever their officers approach us, we simply respond with "Thx, will look into it" 3. TTI seeks refuge with VA, as it understands we are shooting TTI ships, some battle occur. 4. Evolution goes off to Fountain with a few friends, here starts the FA story. 5. Evolution goes off up to Venal again to locate and kill TTI after we learn of the mercenary contracs on EVOL and FA. 6. Battles, battles, battles, VA is suffering, TTI is hiding. 7. More FA corps come up to fight alongside EVOL, namely; Xanady, CNXI, CoC, BladeRunners, and a few scattered pilots. 8. Some major fleet battles occur, VA takes the plunge in most of these. 9. Art Dillingja of FA, offers VA a opportunity to get out of the war; Expell TTI, SPVD (and some others piratical ones whom i cant remember), and FA will call off the war and help rebuild VA to NVA. 10. VA goes to meeting with the offers, the vote happens, which TTI "wins". 11. Ragnar shoots himself in the head by declaring the vote null and void and setting bounty on the naysayers. 12. All of VA goes against TTI, FA forms up with the now NVA to kill TTI. 13. TTI hires Scenites and m3g4 to aid in the fights. 14. Battles, battles, battles. NVA gains ground and numbers. 15. Ragnar flees and TTI "dies" 16. M4G4 is robbed by former members and M3G4 surrenders. 17. NVA stands as victor. Enjoy. |
Rebellion |
Posted - 2003.12.24 11:38:00 -
[51] We didn't give VA the chance to kick TTI out in order to divide and conquer. We went to Venal to fight TTI in the first place. But then it seemed that we had been fighting most everyone except TTI. We always told the other Venal corps that they were not the target, but if they stood between us and TTI, they would be attacked. Similar situation to what we have in Curse actually, except that the corps in Venal were reasonable and made the right decisions. Because of their capability to judge situations the VA is now a prosperous and proud alliance who do not despair of occasional defeats and instead persevere amid challenges. TTI under their old leadership would have made you pawns with all of the sacrifices and none of the glory. The account is accurate. Too short though :p Things like these are great as they make everyone remember the old decisions we had to make. I wish I will have the chance to write some accounts of my own about what we've encountered before I start forgetting details. I'd think we'd have many stories to tell. |
 Rebellion Caldari Evolution Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2003.12.24 11:38:00 -
[52] We didn't give VA the chance to kick TTI out in order to divide and conquer. We went to Venal to fight TTI in the first place. But then it seemed that we had been fighting most everyone except TTI. We always told the other Venal corps that they were not the target, but if they stood between us and TTI, they would be attacked. Similar situation to what we have in Curse actually, except that the corps in Venal were reasonable and made the right decisions. Because of their capability to judge situations the VA is now a prosperous and proud alliance who do not despair of occasional defeats and instead persevere amid challenges. TTI under their old leadership would have made you pawns with all of the sacrifices and none of the glory. The account is accurate. Too short though :p Things like these are great as they make everyone remember the old decisions we had to make. I wish I will have the chance to write some accounts of my own about what we've encountered before I start forgetting details. I'd think we'd have many stories to tell. |
Nasty Ways |
Posted - 2003.12.24 11:47:00 -
[53]
sorry, can't keep myself when someone is waving the TTI-flag in front of my nose... i'm so predictable... --- who didnt know that there are NO FAIR FIGHTS ? |
Nasty Ways Caldari |
Posted - 2003.12.24 11:47:00 -
[54]
sorry, can't keep myself when someone is waving the TTI-flag in front of my nose... i'm so predictable... --- who didnt know that there are NO FAIR FIGHTS ? |
Reverend Necrona |
Posted - 2003.12.24 12:03:00 -
[55] Edited by: Reverend Necrona on 24/12/2003 12:06:25 Edited by: Reverend Necrona on 24/12/2003 12:05:11
That is a load of rubbish. Complete and utter twist of TTI's morals. Also we were involved in a lot of engagements, so this crap about us hiding while the VA fights our battles is totally unfounded and i'd love to see you back that claim up further.. Admitedly they were allies but for christ sake don't give me that sh1t. It's an insult. out right Necro P.S sorry Anla :p and i had forgot Tolstoy as well come to think of it. :/ |
Reverend Necrona Minmatar FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance |
Posted - 2003.12.24 12:03:00 -
[56] Edited by: Reverend Necrona on 24/12/2003 12:06:25 Edited by: Reverend Necrona on 24/12/2003 12:05:11
That is a load of rubbish. Complete and utter twist of TTI's morals. Also we were involved in a lot of engagements, so this crap about us hiding while the VA fights our battles is totally unfounded and i'd love to see you back that claim up further.. Admitedly they were allies but for christ sake don't give me that sh1t. It's an insult. out right Necro P.S sorry Anla :p and i had forgot Tolstoy as well come to think of it. :/ |
Maud Dib |
Posted - 2003.12.24 13:26:00 -
[57] Pieman you n00b people are just going to flame each other over your hard work. Good job anyway, Merry Christmas to you and all the KIA guys. PS Tell InkZ it's time to go gank Indys in Amsen again.  |
 Maud Dib Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2003.12.24 13:26:00 -
[58] Pieman you n00b people are just going to flame each other over your hard work. Good job anyway, Merry Christmas to you and all the KIA guys. PS Tell InkZ it's time to go gank Indys in Amsen again. |
Jacob Molari |
Posted - 2003.12.24 14:03:00 -
[59] One side note. As far as Smoked getting betrayed, it was the other way around. I wasn't in the game at the time, however, I was watching my good friend Techie Zero play, and was fully aware of what was happening in game. Smoked had been caught selling stuff on e-bay, rares and isk belonging to the corp. He had been warned to never do it again. A sting was set up, and sure enough, smoked bit and sold more stuff on e-bay, this time to a corp member. So, just about everyone in M3G4 decided that Smoked had to go, but what could they do? M3G4 was his corp. In a brilliant move, Biomass was formed, and the corp hangers looted before Smoked could either sell or destroy the goods. So, Bio went its own way, and M3G4 went down to 4 members. I joined Bio shortly after that... Ya gotta love all the drama! |
 Jacob Molari Gallente CRICE Corporation |
Posted - 2003.12.24 14:03:00 -
[60] One side note. As far as Smoked getting betrayed, it was the other way around. I wasn't in the game at the time, however, I was watching my good friend Techie Zero play, and was fully aware of what was happening in game. Smoked had been caught selling stuff on e-bay, rares and isk belonging to the corp. He had been warned to never do it again. A sting was set up, and sure enough, smoked bit and sold more stuff on e-bay, this time to a corp member. So, just about everyone in M3G4 decided that Smoked had to go, but what could they do? M3G4 was his corp. In a brilliant move, Biomass was formed, and the corp hangers looted before Smoked could either sell or destroy the goods. So, Bio went its own way, and M3G4 went down to 4 members. I joined Bio shortly after that... Ya gotta love all the drama! |
Jacob Molari |
Posted - 2003.12.24 14:08:00 -
[61] One more thing, Pieman, you need to add another chapter: The abandonment of Venal: Having suffered serious losses to the Forsaken Alliance, the NVA decided to stay close to home, and jealously guard its boarders until "Castor" arrived. But castor was no friend of the NVA. With enormous losses to the NVA at the hands of the guristas pirates, losses exceeding those inflicted by the Forsaken Alliance, the NVA fled Venal to empire space until ships can be built, and minerals reserves repopulated. Venal is now... wide open. End Abandonment. Venal is empty now. Just for S&Gs, I took a shuttle up there. I was not challenged the whole freaking way. Venal has been abandoned. The front door of Venal is open. A sign in the window says "Vacancy, inquire inside". |
Jacob Molari Gallente CRICE Corporation |
Posted - 2003.12.24 14:08:00 -
[62] One more thing, Pieman, you need to add another chapter: The abandonment of Venal: Having suffered serious losses to the Forsaken Alliance, the NVA decided to stay close to home, and jealously guard its boarders until "Castor" arrived. But castor was no friend of the NVA. With enormous losses to the NVA at the hands of the guristas pirates, losses exceeding those inflicted by the Forsaken Alliance, the NVA fled Venal to empire space until ships can be built, and minerals reserves repopulated. Venal is now... wide open. End Abandonment. Venal is empty now. Just for S&Gs, I took a shuttle up there. I was not challenged the whole freaking way. Venal has been abandoned. The front door of Venal is open. A sign in the window says "Vacancy, inquire inside". |
Jade Constantine |
Posted - 2003.12.24 14:30:00 -
[63] Li ShangYin, the reason I disparage your intellectual capabilities and blind fervour for pro-taggart revisionism is (for one thing) that you can't help but contradict your argument totally in two short sentences. Earlier you said...
While in the later text you admit.
Ummm, the only "simple" thing here m'dear, is the ease with which its still possible to get you ex taggart hardliners to contradict yourselves and stray arguments into outright blatent lying and falsehood. How is the neutral reader supposed to give credence to anything else you say when you have boldly asserted one thing (that you now admit was a lie) ... only to go on to boldly assert more spurious "facts". You sir, are a mock. As for the rest. Its clearly known that my proposal for provisional funding was based on headcount. I did this because I wished Taggart to "put up or shut up" on the issue of their inflated member count. Ragnar/Roark (the same person) had been using the member count to veto policy in the VA for quite some time. I thought it reasonable to give Taggart the chance to pay for the increased influence they thought to claim. Of course, if Ragnar had admitted then that you were only 30-40 actives and thus only wanted about twice the voting power of Jericho for twice the funding. There would have been no problem. Of Sun's analysis, its not a question of not liking it, but of laughing in the face of its founding premise. TTI was neither a financial or military power in the VA, due mainly to a cowardly war strategy from Ragnar/Roark and a mean-fisted economic stance from Ragnar/Roark. Sure, there were some heroic fighters like Anla Shock and MarkA. But they were lone pilots. Financially, the only people who ever saw the benefit were Ragnar's pet killers. As we have discussed already, Taggart refused to back the alliance with financial commitment in proportion to the rest. In comparison "little jericho" was more economically significant to the VA, we at least supported the alliance with our isk.
Well yes, but that was fairly obvious, but for the record, ... are there such things as "non-military" pirates monsieur? Love and peace JF Public Forum |
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2003.12.24 14:30:00 -
[64] Li ShangYin, the reason I disparage your intellectual capabilities and blind fervour for pro-taggart revisionism is (for one thing) that you can't help but contradict your argument totally in two short sentences. Earlier you said...
While in the later text you admit.
Ummm, the only "simple" thing here m'dear, is the ease with which its still possible to get you ex taggart hardliners to contradict yourselves and stray arguments into outright blatent lying and falsehood. How is the neutral reader supposed to give credence to anything else you say when you have boldly asserted one thing (that you now admit was a lie) ... only to go on to boldly assert more spurious "facts". You sir, are a mock. As for the rest. Its clearly known that my proposal for provisional funding was based on headcount. I did this because I wished Taggart to "put up or shut up" on the issue of their inflated member count. Ragnar/Roark (the same person) had been using the member count to veto policy in the VA for quite some time. I thought it reasonable to give Taggart the chance to pay for the increased influence they thought to claim. Of course, if Ragnar had admitted then that you were only 30-40 actives and thus only wanted about twice the voting power of Jericho for twice the funding. There would have been no problem. Of Sun's analysis, its not a question of not liking it, but of laughing in the face of its founding premise. TTI was neither a financial or military power in the VA, due mainly to a cowardly war strategy from Ragnar/Roark and a mean-fisted economic stance from Ragnar/Roark. Sure, there were some heroic fighters like Anla Shock and MarkA. But they were lone pilots. Financially, the only people who ever saw the benefit were Ragnar's pet killers. As we have discussed already, Taggart refused to back the alliance with financial commitment in proportion to the rest. In comparison "little jericho" was more economically significant to the VA, we at least supported the alliance with our isk.
Well yes, but that was fairly obvious, but for the record, ... are there such things as "non-military" pirates monsieur? Love and peace JF Public Forum |
KIAPieman |
Posted - 2003.12.24 14:52:00 -
[65]
thanks for that info, as i stated im going on info readily available to me, im in the process of a re-write at the moment and will post my chages asap. ------------------------------------------ with regards to TTI and their involvement in the war, ITS IN THE PAST. as i stated in my history, and i quote
if you re-read it i say that many, but not all. stop trying to make this a flame fest please as its making me feel like saying whats the point, im trying to add somthing different to the community and all people are concerned about is still the old "im right your wrong" mentality, im sorry but its old hat to me. i am hoping to be able to produce this into a timeline much akin to the ones on the eve website. but it will be difficult as dates become blurred as time passes. -------------------------------------------------------- |
KIAPieman Caldari Caldari Provisions |
Posted - 2003.12.24 14:52:00 -
[66]
thanks for that info, as i stated im going on info readily available to me, im in the process of a re-write at the moment and will post my chages asap. ------------------------------------------ with regards to TTI and their involvement in the war, ITS IN THE PAST. as i stated in my history, and i quote
if you re-read it i say that many, but not all. stop trying to make this a flame fest please as its making me feel like saying whats the point, im trying to add somthing different to the community and all people are concerned about is still the old "im right your wrong" mentality, im sorry but its old hat to me. i am hoping to be able to produce this into a timeline much akin to the ones on the eve website. but it will be difficult as dates become blurred as time passes. -------------------------------------------------- |
KIAPieman |
Posted - 2003.12.24 14:56:00 -
[67]
lol we will have to see what chapter is written next. it may be: Pieman gets p**sed off and decides to not to bother writing any more -------------------------------------------------------- |
KIAPieman Caldari Caldari Provisions |
Posted - 2003.12.24 14:56:00 -
[68]
lol we will have to see what chapter is written next. it may be: Pieman gets p**sed off and decides to not to bother writing any more -------------------------------------------------- |
Jacob Molari |
Posted - 2003.12.24 15:42:00 -
[69] Pie, Just some healthy ribbing, your account, by all accounts, is accurate. Keep it up Pieman, don't get disheartened.  |
Jacob Molari Gallente CRICE Corporation |
Posted - 2003.12.24 15:42:00 -
[70] Pie, Just some healthy ribbing, your account, by all accounts, is accurate. Keep it up Pieman, don't get disheartened. |
crice |
Posted - 2003.12.24 16:02:00 -
[71]
The Funny thing is I don't even want Venal. HAHAAAHAHA. Merry Christmas! Crice |
 crice Caldari CRICE Corporation |
Posted - 2003.12.24 16:02:00 -
[72]
The Funny thing is I don't even want Venal. HAHAAAHAHA. Merry Christmas! Crice |
Toulak |
Posted - 2003.12.24 16:15:00 -
[73]
It has? Funny, I do recall lookin on the map yesterday, with the setting "pilots in space" on and well there was quite a few dots about in Venal, Oh wait if your right, then, they musta been the NPCs, that have apparently been ganking hundreds of NVA battleships, we're all doomed..  Back to reality, nice post Pieman keep up the good work. Merry christmas |
 Toulak Caldari Provisions |
Posted - 2003.12.24 16:15:00 -
[74]
It has? Funny, I do recall lookin on the map yesterday, with the setting "pilots in space" on and well there was quite a few dots about in Venal, Oh wait if your right, then, they musta been the NPCs, that have apparently been ganking hundreds of NVA battleships, we're all doomed.. Back to reality, nice post Pieman keep up the good work. Merry christmas |
Jade Constantine |
Posted - 2003.12.24 16:37:00 -
[75] Yep, never fear Pieman, the proportion of complainers to silent readers who actually appreciate people who tell the history of things is mercifully small in reality. You'll always get a little nonsense, it shows you are being taken seriously. Anyhow, merry christmas everyone on both sides, its been a fun year to date. Lets get sloshed and have a ball and eat too much ;) Love and peace JF Public Forum |
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2003.12.24 16:37:00 -
[76] Yep, never fear Pieman, the proportion of complainers to silent readers who actually appreciate people who tell the history of things is mercifully small in reality. You'll always get a little nonsense, it shows you are being taken seriously. Anyhow, merry christmas everyone on both sides, its been a fun year to date. Lets get sloshed and have a ball and eat too much ;) Love and peace JF Public Forum |
Decairn |
Posted - 2003.12.24 16:40:00 -
[77] Edited by: Decairn on 24/12/2003 16:41:30 So I get my 10 days free EVE back, and what do I find... Jade still on a non-sensical rant for pages and pages on end. Wish there was a blocker for her input in threads, it would save pages of wasted space. To set the timeline of TTI in Venal straight, TTI and Xanadu moved to Venal on the day of the move of high-end ores out of Lonetrek. We were (for the most part) alone, other corps didn't start to come out for a few weeks after, the Venal Alliance was quite late to the bistot party. --edit - snip dupe sig out-- --Decairn |
 Decairn Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc. |
Posted - 2003.12.24 16:40:00 -
[78] Edited by: Decairn on 24/12/2003 16:41:30 So I get my 10 days free EVE back, and what do I find... Jade still on a non-sensical rant for pages and pages on end. Wish there was a blocker for her input in threads, it would save pages of wasted space. To set the timeline of TTI in Venal straight, TTI and Xanadu moved to Venal on the day of the move of high-end ores out of Lonetrek. We were (for the most part) alone, other corps didn't start to come out for a few weeks after, the Venal Alliance was quite late to the bistot party. --edit - snip dupe sig out-- --Decairn |
Bobby Wilson |
Posted - 2003.12.24 17:18:00 -
[79] Edited by: Bobby Wilson on 24/12/2003 17:43:55 Edited by: Bobby Wilson on 24/12/2003 17:19:14
BAHAHAHAHAHA. Typical Biomass. You lot all think showing up in Venal at midnight or even 1 AM Pacific time is taking over Venal, and post accordingly. However we all know, including reports from our spy Diesel invited into Biomass (we miss her by the way, after screwing you guys over nothing could top that and she's headed off to a different MMPORG) that you lot come in that late at night intentionally, KNOWING the majority of the NVA are European and are in bed as it is 5-7 AM where they live. It's also pretty well known how afraid you lot are of some of the core PvP strength of our alliance, europeans in CoC, Bladerunners, and RONA-KIA (sorry, leaving many other worthies out in this). Try flying a shuttle into Venal about 5 PM game time on a Saturday. Somebody will be happy to put your frozen corpse in a hanger. BW Edit: Shuttle hell. Try flying a tanked raven into Venal at that time and day of the week. Same result.
|
 Bobby Wilson Gallente |
Posted - 2003.12.24 17:18:00 -
[80] Edited by: Bobby Wilson on 24/12/2003 17:43:55 Edited by: Bobby Wilson on 24/12/2003 17:19:14
BAHAHAHAHAHA. Typical Biomass. You lot all think showing up in Venal at midnight or even 1 AM Pacific time is taking over Venal, and post accordingly. However we all know, including reports from our spy Diesel invited into Biomass (we miss her by the way, after screwing you guys over nothing could top that and she's headed off to a different MMPORG) that you lot come in that late at night intentionally, KNOWING the majority of the NVA are European and are in bed as it is 5-7 AM where they live. It's also pretty well known how afraid you lot are of some of the core PvP strength of our alliance, europeans in CoC, Bladerunners, and RONA-KIA (sorry, leaving many other worthies out in this). Try flying a shuttle into Venal about 5 PM game time on a Saturday. Somebody will be happy to put your frozen corpse in a hanger. BW Edit: Shuttle hell. Try flying a tanked raven into Venal at that time and day of the week. Same result. |
Havana |
Posted - 2003.12.24 17:25:00 -
[81] First, I feel the need to state the obvious - that there are many layers of truth surrounding the Venal War. I dare say not one person, not even the staring participants in this particular drama, has a grasp of the whole truth. Each person/faction has a little piece of the truth ū and I suspect certain actors may have a rude awakening if they discover certain truths that are still hidden. Who are the pawns and who are the puppet master? And surely someone is watching the watcher? [OOC: and this is what makes Eve so fascinating to some, and so frustrating to would be Eve historian.] I can assure everyone I am but a minor bystander, but by happenstance I do hold a piece of truth that the Kool-Aid drinking Chung Kuo brothers apparently donĘt have. So I will shed some light here for the entertainment of the audience. But I caution even now I am bounded to reveal only but a layer of the truth as known to me. The rest can only be hinted atą as the play is not yet done and certain actors are still behind the curtainą So letĘs begin:
To this very day, apparently more than a few (ex-) TTI members still suffer under a fundamental misconception of what the initial Venal War is about... Try this: The war was never about VA. The war was entirely about TTI and particularly about Ragnar. I can not tell if it is naivetŚ or arrogance, some TTI members (similar to citizens of certain old world superpower I can think of) simply can not comprehend that their beloved corporation and its leader are loathed and even hated by a significant number of Eve denizens. The war as declared by EvolutionĘs CEO was over after the ōnight of treacheryö. EVOL was out to get TTI. TTI was ousted from VA. No more war with VA. To understand this, one should know EVOL fought a hit and run war against TTI in Venal prior to the forming of the Fountain Alliance. There is little reason to doubt the fight is about old grudges, a continuation of the EVOL/TTI war started in beta. Suffice to say that TTIĘs politics, and in particular their bullying of the free press (INO) during the beta era, are not viewed in a positive light by a number of influential leaders. The conflict seem to have ended when EVOL migrated to Fountain and, along with others, founded the FA. The war with TTI was rekindled, however, some months later when a number of damning evidences surfaced - suggesting TTI had put out a hidden contract on the heads of FA members. A sample of the evidences, including chatlogs and a screenshot of Derek[TTI] offering 25M ISK per Xan and EVOL b-ship destroyed was posted on Gal-Net. I think it is fair to say that while many Eve denizens are swayed, many other have doubts. Without question what were post could not be considered proof, as chat logs can easily be fabricated, and the posted screenshot of DerekĘs evemail was dated a few days after the war had already been declared. I do know screenshots of members of at least two well known pirate corps accepting payments from TTI for kills prior to the war declaration exists. These screenshots were never released to the public, obviously in order to protect the sources. I also happen to know that certain media organization is in possession of some of these screenshots. Perhaps one day the newsies will choose to write a story about them. Will they be any closer to uncovering the truth? An obscured article published a while back appear to indicate there someone might have inkling. There are layers of truth, only time will tellą But I digressed - all this is not to rehash or justify EVOLĘs reason for war. As the enigmatic EVOL is know to proclaim, their reasons are their own ū I am here, to point to the consistency of a course of actions ū that VA is never the target of EVOLĘs fight, it is always TTI. [cont...] |
 Havana |
Posted - 2003.12.24 17:25:00 -
[82] It is indeed ironic, that to their credit, VA, out of a sense of honor, chooses to stand behind TTI, a member of their alliance -while many TTI members, brainwashed or otherwise, think the war is about pirates. One wealthy TTI member even stated in public that he feel no obligation to fight ōVAĘs warö as TTI is not a corp, but a loose alliance of individuals and that whatever relationship existed between TTI and VA is best characterized as a ōmeaninglessö NAP. As later events point out, this is not the 1st time the former TTI choose to fight war by proxy. Yes, other FA and empire corps joined the Venal war for varying reasons, and killing pirates are certainly a reasonable justification. I mean seriously, JadeĘs valiant effort to paint them as frontier ōcaptain-ownersö not withstanding, everyone know half the corps in VA harbored pirates and outlaws. Further adding confusion, at the start of the pre-FA conflict ū EVOL used disinformation and managed to convince Ragnar that they are in Venal to fight VA. I have no idea why people not caught on that in one of the chatlog posted later, Ragnar was caught offering to betray VA and to take out a VA ship for EVOL. If, as speculated by some and spun by TTI leaders and apologists at the time, that the war is about territorial ambition, one would think the logical course of action following the collapsed of VA and the pending Civil War, that EVOL/FA would not let up the war effort and/or would be in a position to exploit the weaken [N]VA. As the audience can tell by the above quotes, to this day, the ex-TTI Chung Kuo members are still stuck in their self-deception. What in fact transpired point rather to the opposite - many FA corps sent ships to help defend Venal in their fight against TTI and their pirate alliance. There were even talks internally within FA to open Fountain temporary to VA members. And after the job is done and TTI no longer post a threat, FA bid NVA good tiding and return to Fountain. Venal is for the NVA. No bistot were mined by FA pilots, no station burned, and no virgin was taken. Most of the time, you have to take what people say on Gal-Net with a large dose of cynicism, but when nothings seem to make sense, re-examine the events and taking things at face value might just point to a version of reality you can believe in. There are also untold stories, I believe, on the sequence of events that lead to the FAĘs offer to end the war. Many bitter TTI members, and Ragnar, pointed the finger squarely at Jade Constantine. Less often mentioned is the spectacle of apparently unobstructed movement of Cyberdyne pilots deep in Fountain space a few days before. The secret some people keptą Was Ragnar really a crazed maniacs, or was he drugged by his personal physician? What is the text of that infamous speech on the night of treachery again? There is a name there. A hint? Doubleganger? To a certain Eve Part-Timer: What was that commotion I hear on the executive floor at the TTI HQ a few days prior to RagnarĘs sudden ōvoluntaryö resignation? Something about an ultimatum and a group resignation? Do tellą Alas, it is happening again. [Twin Peaks music] Anyone recall the stated reasons of the CA war. Why is Stain in turmoil? Is RUS really back? Is Stavros really Stavros? Will agents of Chaos run amok in Eve? Or will Eve becomes a sea of Tranquility? Denizens of Eve - It is time to walk to walk the sea. It is the end of the age of Kali. It is time to bear witness to age of destruction. Are you prepared for the coming of Shiva, the destroyer? It will begin, again. [OOC disclaimer: Most of what I said is on the public record if you bother to dig. And no, I am not an EVOLĘs alt.] |
 Havana |
Posted - 2003.12.24 17:25:00 -
[83] First, I feel the need to state the obvious - that there are many layers of truth surrounding the Venal War. I dare say not one person, not even the staring participants in this particular drama, has a grasp of the whole truth. Each person/faction has a little piece of the truth ū and I suspect certain actors may have a rude awakening if they discover certain truths that are still hidden. Who are the pawns and who are the puppet master? And surely someone is watching the watcher? [OOC: and this is what makes Eve so fascinating to some, and so frustrating to would be Eve historian.] I can assure everyone I am but a minor bystander, but by happenstance I do hold a piece of truth that the Kool-Aid drinking Chung Kuo brothers apparently donĘt have. So I will shed some light here for the entertainment of the audience. But I caution even now I am bounded to reveal only but a layer of the truth as known to me. The rest can only be hinted atą as the play is not yet done and certain actors are still behind the curtainą So letĘs begin:
To this very day, apparently more than a few (ex-) TTI members still suffer under a fundamental misconception of what the initial Venal War is about... Try this: The war was never about VA. The war was entirely about TTI and particularly about Ragnar. I can not tell if it is naivetT or arrogance, some TTI members (similar to citizens of certain old world superpower I can think of) simply can not comprehend that their beloved corporation and its leader are loathed and even hated by a significant number of Eve denizens. The war as declared by EvolutionĘs CEO was over after the ōnight of treacheryö. EVOL was out to get TTI. TTI was ousted from VA. No more war with VA. To understand this, one should know EVOL fought a hit and run war against TTI in Venal prior to the forming of the Fountain Alliance. There is little reason to doubt the fight is about old grudges, a continuation of the EVOL/TTI war started in beta. Suffice to say that TTIĘs politics, and in particular their bullying of the free press (INO) during the beta era, are not viewed in a positive light by a number of influential leaders. The conflict seem to have ended when EVOL migrated to Fountain and, along with others, founded the FA. The war with TTI was rekindled, however, some months later when a number of damning evidences surfaced - suggesting TTI had put out a hidden contract on the heads of FA members. A sample of the evidences, including chatlogs and a screenshot of Derek[TTI] offering 25M ISK per Xan and EVOL b-ship destroyed was posted on Gal-Net. I think it is fair to say that while many Eve denizens are swayed, many other have doubts. Without question what were post could not be considered proof, as chat logs can easily be fabricated, and the posted screenshot of DerekĘs evemail was dated a few days after the war had already been declared. I do know screenshots of members of at least two well known pirate corps accepting payments from TTI for kills prior to the war declaration exists. These screenshots were never released to the public, obviously in order to protect the sources. I also happen to know that certain media organization is in possession of some of these screenshots. Perhaps one day the newsies will choose to write a story about them. Will they be any closer to uncovering the truth? An obscured article published a while back appear to indicate there someone might have inkling. There are layers of truth, only time will tellą But I digressed - all this is not to rehash or justify EVOLĘs reason for war. As the enigmatic EVOL is know to proclaim, their reasons are their own ū I am here, to point to the consistency of a course of actions ū that VA is never the target of EVOLĘs fight, it is always TTI. [cont...] |
Havana |
Posted - 2003.12.24 17:25:00 -
[84] It is indeed ironic, that to their credit, VA, out of a sense of honor, chooses to stand behind TTI, a member of their alliance -while many TTI members, brainwashed or otherwise, think the war is about pirates. One wealthy TTI member even stated in public that he feel no obligation to fight ōVAĘs warö as TTI is not a corp, but a loose alliance of individuals and that whatever relationship existed between TTI and VA is best characterized as a ōmeaninglessö NAP. As later events point out, this is not the 1st time the former TTI choose to fight war by proxy. Yes, other FA and empire corps joined the Venal war for varying reasons, and killing pirates are certainly a reasonable justification. I mean seriously, JadeĘs valiant effort to paint them as frontier ōcaptain-ownersö not withstanding, everyone know half the corps in VA harbored pirates and outlaws. Further adding confusion, at the start of the pre-FA conflict ū EVOL used disinformation and managed to convince Ragnar that they are in Venal to fight VA. I have no idea why people not caught on that in one of the chatlog posted later, Ragnar was caught offering to betray VA and to take out a VA ship for EVOL. If, as speculated by some and spun by TTI leaders and apologists at the time, that the war is about territorial ambition, one would think the logical course of action following the collapsed of VA and the pending Civil War, that EVOL/FA would not let up the war effort and/or would be in a position to exploit the weaken [N]VA. As the audience can tell by the above quotes, to this day, the ex-TTI Chung Kuo members are still stuck in their self-deception. What in fact transpired point rather to the opposite - many FA corps sent ships to help defend Venal in their fight against TTI and their pirate alliance. There were even talks internally within FA to open Fountain temporary to VA members. And after the job is done and TTI no longer post a threat, FA bid NVA good tiding and return to Fountain. Venal is for the NVA. No bistot were mined by FA pilots, no station burned, and no virgin was taken. Most of the time, you have to take what people say on Gal-Net with a large dose of cynicism, but when nothings seem to make sense, re-examine the events and taking things at face value might just point to a version of reality you can believe in. There are also untold stories, I believe, on the sequence of events that lead to the FAĘs offer to end the war. Many bitter TTI members, and Ragnar, pointed the finger squarely at Jade Constantine. Less often mentioned is the spectacle of apparently unobstructed movement of Cyberdyne pilots deep in Fountain space a few days before. The secret some people keptą Was Ragnar really a crazed maniacs, or was he drugged by his personal physician? What is the text of that infamous speech on the night of treachery again? There is a name there. A hint? Doubleganger? To a certain Eve Part-Timer: What was that commotion I hear on the executive floor at the TTI HQ a few days prior to RagnarĘs sudden ōvoluntaryö resignation? Something about an ultimatum and a group resignation? Do tellą Alas, it is happening again. [Twin Peaks music] Anyone recall the stated reasons of the CA war. Why is Stain in turmoil? Is RUS really back? Is Stavros really Stavros? Will agents of Chaos run amok in Eve? Or will Eve becomes a sea of Tranquility? Denizens of Eve - It is time to walk to walk the sea. It is the end of the age of Kali. It is time to bear witness to age of destruction. Are you prepared for the coming of Shiva, the destroyer? It will begin, again. [OOC disclaimer: Most of what I said is on the public record if you bother to dig. And no, I am not an EVOLĘs alt.] |
 KIAInkZ |
Posted - 2003.12.24 17:34:00 -
[85] The history of venal from my point of view KIA move to venal. We fly around killing non venal ships and having fun for a couple of weeks, then evol come to venal and destroy most of our corp. I stay in venal with a couple of the others that still have ships, and continue chasing evol around to no avail. A lot of venal had left due to losses, and there were a few left fighting. The pirates just stayed in empire pirating like they did most of the time anyway, and it was the corps that operated heavily in venal, like ourselves that lost out. A council meeting was called (being new to the allience we assumed this had been the way things worked all along) and the idea of tti laying low for a bit to get evol off our backs was brought about. We thought it was a great idea, it would allow us to get our ships back before preparing for battle again. I sat in on 'the council meeting' and the vote was that tti would stay in venal and we would all fight, which everyone was fine with. The fact that the vote was never to kick tti out in the first place seems to be lost by both sides. Maybe we were nieve enough to believe that's what the plan was and everyone would be fine with it, and there were no hidden agendas. Anyway, Ragnar declared war on everyone and we all ended up fighting each other anyway. We were stuck on one side or the other, or go back to empire space. Going back to empire wasn't really an option for us. It was all a bit of a rollercoaster ride that our corp didn't really have much say in, but we came out of it ok in the end. --- Forums/Killboard - http://www.kia-corp.co.uk |
KIAInkZ Deep Core Mining Inc. |
Posted - 2003.12.24 17:34:00 -
[86] The history of venal from my point of view KIA move to venal. We fly around killing non venal ships and having fun for a couple of weeks, then evol come to venal and destroy most of our corp. I stay in venal with a couple of the others that still have ships, and continue chasing evol around to no avail. A lot of venal had left due to losses, and there were a few left fighting. The pirates just stayed in empire pirating like they did most of the time anyway, and it was the corps that operated heavily in venal, like ourselves that lost out. A council meeting was called (being new to the allience we assumed this had been the way things worked all along) and the idea of tti laying low for a bit to get evol off our backs was brought about. We thought it was a great idea, it would allow us to get our ships back before preparing for battle again. I sat in on 'the council meeting' and the vote was that tti would stay in venal and we would all fight, which everyone was fine with. The fact that the vote was never to kick tti out in the first place seems to be lost by both sides. Maybe we were nieve enough to believe that's what the plan was and everyone would be fine with it, and there were no hidden agendas. Anyway, Ragnar declared war on everyone and we all ended up fighting each other anyway. We were stuck on one side or the other, or go back to empire space. Going back to empire wasn't really an option for us. It was all a bit of a rollercoaster ride that our corp didn't really have much say in, but we came out of it ok in the end. --- Forums/Killboard - http://www.kia-corp.co.uk |
Jade Constantine |
Posted - 2003.12.24 17:56:00 -
[87] Now that, lady Havana, is quality political analysis. Well done. There are of course a lot of interesting slants to the whole matter yet unrevealed ... some of them will likely never reach the light of day. But you are pretty much on the money that old TTI's primarily talent was self delusion. For my part I've told it more or less until I am blue in the face; I declared blood feud on Ragnar from a sense of outrage at his betrayal of the VA that voted to back him, and in self-defence against the murder bounty he placed on my head from wanton spite. It was never about power and presige. It was always about stabbing a tyrant in the face. End of the day, I am well satisfied. And FA went from being war enemies to honoured allies. Moral of the story being. A foe you can trust is better than a deceitful ally. PS. I really didn't know that Ragnar tried to sellout the VA to EVO at an early stage ... wow, that would have made superb war-propaganda at the time ... ah well. Love and peace JF Public Forum |
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2003.12.24 17:56:00 -
[88] Now that, lady Havana, is quality political analysis. Well done. There are of course a lot of interesting slants to the whole matter yet unrevealed ... some of them will likely never reach the light of day. But you are pretty much on the money that old TTI's primarily talent was self delusion. For my part I've told it more or less until I am blue in the face; I declared blood feud on Ragnar from a sense of outrage at his betrayal of the VA that voted to back him, and in self-defence against the murder bounty he placed on my head from wanton spite. It was never about power and presige. It was always about stabbing a tyrant in the face. End of the day, I am well satisfied. And FA went from being war enemies to honoured allies. Moral of the story being. A foe you can trust is better than a deceitful ally. PS. I really didn't know that Ragnar tried to sellout the VA to EVO at an early stage ... wow, that would have made superb war-propaganda at the time ... ah well. Love and peace JF Public Forum |
crice |
Posted - 2003.12.24 18:25:00 -
[89]
KIA? Why are you still in the NVA? What value to they bring to the table for you? This is just a question. Crice |
crice Caldari CRICE Corporation |
Posted - 2003.12.24 18:25:00 -
[90]
KIA? Why are you still in the NVA? What value to they bring to the table for you? This is just a question. Crice |
KIAPieman |
Posted - 2003.12.24 18:42:00 -
[91] Edited by: KIAPieman on 24/12/2003 18:44:21 we do it for the laydeez and drink a lot. there is a massive overstock of amarr beer in venal and someone has to drink it on a serious note, we are now an out and out PVP corp. thats what we bring to venal. -------------------------------------------------------- |
KIAPieman Caldari Caldari Provisions |
Posted - 2003.12.24 18:42:00 -
[92] Edited by: KIAPieman on 24/12/2003 18:44:21 we do it for the laydeez and drink a lot. there is a massive overstock of amarr beer in venal and someone has to drink it on a serious note, we are now an out and out PVP corp. thats what we bring to venal. -------------------------------------------------- |
Anla Shok |
Posted - 2003.12.24 20:31:00 -
[93]
do tell me please... after all i was ON that floor at the time and i dont have any idea what you mean. i am genuinely curious. |
Anla Shok Evolution Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2003.12.24 20:31:00 -
[94]
do tell me please... after all i was ON that floor at the time and i dont have any idea what you mean. i am genuinely curious. |
KIAPieman |
Posted - 2003.12.24 20:41:00 -
[95]
its chinese whispers. people hear a rumor, and before you know it you hear that ragnar ordered choc chip ice cream with extra sprinkles causing the rift and the following loss of players for TTI. the only people who can shed light are the people who were there at the time -------------------------------------------------------- |
KIAPieman Caldari Caldari Provisions |
Posted - 2003.12.24 20:41:00 -
[96]
its chinese whispers. people hear a rumor, and before you know it you hear that ragnar ordered choc chip ice cream with extra sprinkles causing the rift and the following loss of players for TTI. the only people who can shed light are the people who were there at the time -------------------------------------------------- |
ProphetGuru |
Posted - 2003.12.24 20:42:00 -
[97] Havana.... Excellent. To everyone else, this is what makes Eve what it is. Player driven content. Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning. |
 ProphetGuru Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2003.12.24 20:42:00 -
[98] Havana.... Excellent. To everyone else, this is what makes Eve what it is. Player driven content. GG, only took yas 6 months |
Li ShangYin |
Posted - 2003.12.24 21:28:00 -
[99]
Then again we are just desillutional lunatics who have no clue on anything anyways  , not to mention the headwizard and cultleader Ragnar who must have been totally insane, afterall no sane person can build up a multibillion fortune in a couple months, let alone a megacorp that isn't built after the basic we do everything and anything and sign up any noob who is willing to join so our ranks look big...___________________________________ A spring day at the edge of the world. On the edge of the world once more the day slants. The oriole cries, as though it were its own tears Which damp even the topmost blossoms on the tree. -- Li Shang-yin, Exile, ninth century A.D. |
Li ShangYin Chung Kuo |
Posted - 2003.12.24 21:28:00 -
[100]
Then again we are just desillutional lunatics who have no clue on anything anyways , not to mention the headwizard and cultleader Ragnar who must have been totally insane, afterall no sane person can build up a multibillion fortune in a couple months, let alone a megacorp that isn't built after the basic we do everything and anything and sign up any noob who is willing to join so our ranks look big...___________________________________ A spring day at the edge of the world. On the edge of the world once more the day slants. The oriole cries, as though it were its own tears Which damp even the topmost blossoms on the tree. -- Li Shang-yin, Exile, ninth century A.D. |
KIAInkZ |
Posted - 2003.12.24 23:16:00 -
[101] Edited by: KIAInkZ on 24/12/2003 23:18:05
Because it's challenging, and we have many friends there (a large reason why we joined RONA). If we were in empire space mining veldspa all day we would have quit months ago. Besides, it means I get to play the good guy and blow stuff up. --- Forums/Killboard - http://www.kia-corp.co.uk |
KIAInkZ Deep Core Mining Inc. |
Posted - 2003.12.24 23:16:00 -
[102] Edited by: KIAInkZ on 24/12/2003 23:18:05
Because it's challenging, and we have many friends there (a large reason why we joined RONA). If we were in empire space mining veldspa all day we would have quit months ago. Besides, it means I get to play the good guy and blow stuff up. --- Forums/Killboard - http://www.kia-corp.co.uk |
KIAPieman |
Posted - 2003.12.25 14:44:00 -
[103]
well i am a lunatic. -------------------------------------------------------- |
KIAPieman Caldari Caldari Provisions |
Posted - 2003.12.25 14:44:00 -
[104]
well i am a lunatic. -------------------------------------------------- |
vf142rex |
Posted - 2003.12.25 16:35:00 -
[105] Evolution's initial invasion of Venal was justified by the fact that they were killing pirates that attacked them outside of venal, and ran behind the VA's protection to avoid destruction. Evolution claimed not to recognize VA's claims to the territory and invaded. TTI signed an NAP with the original VA because TTI had been operating in venal for a significant period of time before it formed. TTI did not want to become a full fledged member of a pirate corp, because it had already taken lots of bad press on the m0o deal. It should be said that at this time, TTI did have a significant number of active players. I went on vacation the morning after Evolution's initial incursion. When I came back 10 days later, TTI had apparently fled Venal, and returned. |
 vf142rex Minmatar |
Posted - 2003.12.25 16:35:00 -
[106] Evolution's initial invasion of Venal was justified by the fact that they were killing pirates that attacked them outside of venal, and ran behind the VA's protection to avoid destruction. Evolution claimed not to recognize VA's claims to the territory and invaded. TTI signed an NAP with the original VA because TTI had been operating in venal for a significant period of time before it formed. TTI did not want to become a full fledged member of a pirate corp, because it had already taken lots of bad press on the m0o deal. It should be said that at this time, TTI did have a significant number of active players. I went on vacation the morning after Evolution's initial incursion. When I came back 10 days later, TTI had apparently fled Venal, and returned. |
GFLTorque |
Posted - 2003.12.26 00:12:00 -
[107] Well written Pieman. Your old buddy, Torque <S> |
 GFLTorque Minmatar Y.N.S Corp |
Posted - 2003.12.26 00:12:00 -
[108] Well written Pieman. Your old buddy, Torque <S> |
Rebellion |
Posted - 2003.12.26 02:30:00 -
[109] Edited by: Rebellion on 26/12/2003 02:32:45 Havana, I appreciate the effort you spent analyzing and backtracking past events. Your assessment in as far as our involvment is concerned is completely accurate. Dealing with the misinformed is the rule here, so it is refreshing that someone manages to see things as they were and are, given the same information and not being privy to knowledge we hold in private. You got the facts right and were able to look back in retrospect at how we were exonerated and how those who spoke against us used untruths. Current events are indeed strikingly similar to what transpired in the past. People fail to learn the lessons of history and they repeat its mistakes. I also recall Stav making a big fuss about declaring how they never accepted payment for hits on FA ships. Thay they did their own thing and would never be on anyone's payroll blah blah. And then one finds this: [ 2003.12.14 01:37:38 ] Lord Zap > weve crippled fa in the past for a nice fee Since we began we have always fought untruths. Those who claim power without the right to do so, those who hide treachery behind the face of legitimacy, those who outright lie. Once we find these people, they become targets, and we never let up until they admit their falsehood and make amends. For others, they see wisdom eventually and atone for their misdeeds. But others recoil at the thought of espousing truth after subsisting on untruth, and they self destruct. Not all lies have been eradicated, there are many that linger like a foul stench coming from a dead carcass. They are irrelevant, yet they clutch at the myths of their past. To these we shall be as Erinnyes. |
Rebellion Caldari Evolution Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2003.12.26 02:30:00 -
[110] Edited by: Rebellion on 26/12/2003 02:32:45 Havana, I appreciate the effort you spent analyzing and backtracking past events. Your assessment in as far as our involvment is concerned is completely accurate. Dealing with the misinformed is the rule here, so it is refreshing that someone manages to see things as they were and are, given the same information and not being privy to knowledge we hold in private. You got the facts right and were able to look back in retrospect at how we were exonerated and how those who spoke against us used untruths. Current events are indeed strikingly similar to what transpired in the past. People fail to learn the lessons of history and they repeat its mistakes. I also recall Stav making a big fuss about declaring how they never accepted payment for hits on FA ships. Thay they did their own thing and would never be on anyone's payroll blah blah. And then one finds this: [ 2003.12.14 01:37:38 ] Lord Zap > weve crippled fa in the past for a nice fee Since we began we have always fought untruths. Those who claim power without the right to do so, those who hide treachery behind the face of legitimacy, those who outright lie. Once we find these people, they become targets, and we never let up until they admit their falsehood and make amends. For others, they see wisdom eventually and atone for their misdeeds. But others recoil at the thought of espousing truth after subsisting on untruth, and they self destruct. Not all lies have been eradicated, there are many that linger like a foul stench coming from a dead carcass. They are irrelevant, yet they clutch at the myths of their past. To these we shall be as Erinnyes. |
Reverend Necrona |
Posted - 2003.12.26 02:58:00 -
[111] ...or there are two sides to every story? |
Reverend Necrona Minmatar FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance |
Posted - 2003.12.26 02:58:00 -
[112] ...or there are two sides to every story? |
Jade Constantine |
Posted - 2003.12.26 04:10:00 -
[113] Tehel, if you want to understand this "story" you need to start the painful process of examining your own flawed understanding of the things which happened. Part of this is the hard statistical analysis of who is likely to be telling the truth, based on supporting evidence, opinions, and accounts. In a way your unquestioning loyalty to Ragnar and his decisions is kinda charming from a poetic perspective. But you really need to wake up and see the truth of what actually happened if you ever hope to understand the issues. Its nothing to be that ashamed about though; Li Shang seems to claim loftier pseudo-intellectual credentials than you, and he is even more clueless. Love and peace JF Public Forum |
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2003.12.26 04:10:00 -
[114] Tehel, if you want to understand this "story" you need to start the painful process of examining your own flawed understanding of the things which happened. Part of this is the hard statistical analysis of who is likely to be telling the truth, based on supporting evidence, opinions, and accounts. In a way your unquestioning loyalty to Ragnar and his decisions is kinda charming from a poetic perspective. But you really need to wake up and see the truth of what actually happened if you ever hope to understand the issues. Its nothing to be that ashamed about though; Li Shang seems to claim loftier pseudo-intellectual credentials than you, and he is even more clueless. Love and peace JF Public Forum |
Skillz |
Posted - 2003.12.26 08:45:00 -
[115] Geez, Jade, that was thick. You diden't drink wine under the hollidays? Keep on flaming, lamers. |
 Skillz Amarr |
Posted - 2003.12.26 08:45:00 -
[116] Geez, Jade, that was thick. You diden't drink wine under the hollidays? Keep on flaming, lamers. |
Havana |
Posted - 2003.12.26 11:35:00 -
[117] Edited by: Havana on 26/12/2003 11:50:05 Jade: Not even Machiavelli would have predicted that faithful night. I have an odd perspective but I am thankful the events took an unexpected turn as it afford us, the denizen of Eve, a sublime piece of writing from you that have no parallel. Oh, I think TehalĘs is more subtle than he appears to beą and very far from having ōunquestioning loyalty to Ragnarö. Prophet Guru: Thanks for the kind words. Li ShangYin: I think your witty little dig might be funnier if you earlier have not thrown around the TTI is a "200 man corpö bs when the situation suits you. Rebellion: Stavro at that time donĘt know about RoarkĘs payment to Tekforce [mOo] and others, he apparently didnĘt get the memo. I wonĘt underestimate Stavro as I believe he is in possession of a few secrets and is a known figure in the underworld. The current version of Stavro, however, seems to be a defective clone with less than full intellect/memory restorationą so I just donĘt know. Pieman and Anla Shok: My intel suggested there were substantial internal unhappiness about joining force with the likes of M3g4 and a strong push for peace by some within TTI. Ragnar was said to have responded with another ōspeechö which is described by one in attendance as much worse than the VA meeting and emptied the room. Subsequently and without RagnarĘs knowledge a meeting was hold by TTI Exec to oust him, and there were talks of joining subsidiary corps and declaring war on the mother corp. The above may indeed be a ōchinese whisperö. I would love to hear the real story. So how about it Reverend Necrona? |
Havana |
Posted - 2003.12.26 11:35:00 -
[118] Edited by: Havana on 26/12/2003 11:50:05 Jade: Not even Machiavelli would have predicted that faithful night. I have an odd perspective but I am thankful the events took an unexpected turn as it afford us, the denizen of Eve, a sublime piece of writing from you that have no parallel. Oh, I think TehalĘs is more subtle than he appears to beą and very far from having ōunquestioning loyalty to Ragnarö. Prophet Guru: Thanks for the kind words. Li ShangYin: I think your witty little dig might be funnier if you earlier have not thrown around the TTI is a "200 man corpö bs when the situation suits you. Rebellion: Stavro at that time donĘt know about RoarkĘs payment to Tekforce [mOo] and others, he apparently didnĘt get the memo. I wonĘt underestimate Stavro as I believe he is in possession of a few secrets and is a known figure in the underworld. The current version of Stavro, however, seems to be a defective clone with less than full intellect/memory restorationą so I just donĘt know. Pieman and Anla Shok: My intel suggested there were substantial internal unhappiness about joining force with the likes of M3g4 and a strong push for peace by some within TTI. Ragnar was said to have responded with another ōspeechö which is described by one in attendance as much worse than the VA meeting and emptied the room. Subsequently and without RagnarĘs knowledge a meeting was hold by TTI Exec to oust him, and there were talks of joining subsidiary corps and declaring war on the mother corp. The above may indeed be a ōchinese whisperö. I would love to hear the real story. So how about it Reverend Necrona? |
Cormyat Astara |
Posted - 2003.12.26 17:27:00 -
[119] Edited by: Cormyat Astara on 26/12/2003 17:33:45
Of course there are two sides to every story. Where Venal's embattled history is concerned, there are probably more like 20 sides to every story. There is, however, only one reality. Just as in real life, one side's version of the truth will be more in line with reality than the other side's version. Here's how I see it: The old VA was very much a loose coalition. It was not well-organized. There was not a great deal of official communication. Pirates relished the ability to have a home. Carebears relished the priveledge of being safe from those pirates. It was quite the individualistic frontier. VA was briefly united by Evolution's attack, but that war revealed VA's true weakness: A lack of centralized leadership and cohesiveness. For the most part, the pirates (read: the most experienced PvPers) abandoned the battlefield. TTI (read: The object of Evolution's attack) did much less than the balance of VA exepcted from them. TTI can argue until they're blue in the face as to whether or not those expectations were reasonable...but they will never argue that many VA corps believed that TTI was not pulling their weight in defense of the region. And yes, it very quickly became obvious to everyone that TTI was Evolution's real target. So now you have the following reality: An alliance consisting of diverse corporations, with no real central objective beyond living in Venal, finds itself besieged by skilled, organized, and experienced PvPers. Many ships bite the dust. Even when we did score kills on FA pilots, it seemed to make no difference whatsoever. Every day, a dozen or so VA ships, mostly indies and cruisers, would die. The players with little or no PvP experience looked to the veterans within the VA to mount a resistance. Unfortunately, those veterans such as Space Invaders, Paladins of the Red Skull, and even TTI's few PvP pilots, seemed to suddenly lose their resolve to hold Venal. What happened then is simple: The balance of VA corporations began to see that they were taking losses and engaging in a war that was not even directed at them. They were fighting to defend corporations who were not fighting to defend the alliance. Again, this may or may not have been the whole truth, but it was the pervading perception. I am convinced FA was closely monitoring these internal events within VA, and they knew the majority of corporations were growing weary of fighting what they came to view as someone else's war. Therefore, they issued their terms of surrender at precisely the correct time. I remember in VA chat the day of the infamous council meeting; just before the meeting started, we were discussing the terms FA had issued. I remember saying then that if the alliance wanted to stay together, we shouldn't even bother to vote on the terms, because it would fracture the alliance regardless of the outcome of the vote. All the council vote did was reveal the *****s that had already formed in the alliance. The VA corporations expected something that Ragnar and TTI were not willing to give. Therefore, the council vote and resulting civil war were inevitable. In my opinion, it was TTI's--and specifically Ragnar's--inability to perceive the growing egativity towards them within their own alliance that led to their ultimate downfall. Or perhaps Ragnar did perceive it, but was merely so arrogant that he didn't believe TTI could be truly harmed. Or perhaps he miscalculated in the belief that more VA members would stand by TTI after he issued his ultimatum. I tend to think Ragnar believed that the alliance was loyal to TTI when, in reality, the alliance had grown quite disillusioned. I'd wager he felt that when he laid the full weight of TTI's economic power onto Jade's head, the rest of the alliance would turn against Jericho Fraction. And he was wrong about that. No one but Ragnar can say what was going through Ragnar's mind. However, perception is far more important than truth. And it was people's perception of events that led to the fracture of old VA. Truth has nothing to do with it. |
 Cormyat Astara Caldari Caldari Provisions |
Posted - 2003.12.26 17:27:00 -
[120] Edited by: Cormyat Astara on 26/12/2003 17:33:45
Of course there are two sides to every story. Where Venal's embattled history is concerned, there are probably more like 20 sides to every story. There is, however, only one reality. Just as in real life, one side's version of the truth will be more in line with reality than the other side's version. Here's how I see it: The old VA was very much a loose coalition. It was not well-organized. There was not a great deal of official communication. Pirates relished the ability to have a home. Carebears relished the priveledge of being safe from those pirates. It was quite the individualistic frontier. VA was briefly united by Evolution's attack, but that war revealed VA's true weakness: A lack of centralized leadership and cohesiveness. For the most part, the pirates (read: the most experienced PvPers) abandoned the battlefield. TTI (read: The object of Evolution's attack) did much less than the balance of VA exepcted from them. TTI can argue until they're blue in the face as to whether or not those expectations were reasonable...but they will never argue that many VA corps believed that TTI was not pulling their weight in defense of the region. And yes, it very quickly became obvious to everyone that TTI was Evolution's real target. So now you have the following reality: An alliance consisting of diverse corporations, with no real central objective beyond living in Venal, finds itself besieged by skilled, organized, and experienced PvPers. Many ships bite the dust. Even when we did score kills on FA pilots, it seemed to make no difference whatsoever. Every day, a dozen or so VA ships, mostly indies and cruisers, would die. The players with little or no PvP experience looked to the veterans within the VA to mount a resistance. Unfortunately, those veterans such as Space Invaders, Paladins of the Red Skull, and even TTI's few PvP pilots, seemed to suddenly lose their resolve to hold Venal. What happened then is simple: The balance of VA corporations began to see that they were taking losses and engaging in a war that was not even directed at them. They were fighting to defend corporations who were not fighting to defend the alliance. Again, this may or may not have been the whole truth, but it was the pervading perception. I am convinced FA was closely monitoring these internal events within VA, and they knew the majority of corporations were growing weary of fighting what they came to view as someone else's war. Therefore, they issued their terms of surrender at precisely the correct time. I remember in VA chat the day of the infamous council meeting; just before the meeting started, we were discussing the terms FA had issued. I remember saying then that if the alliance wanted to stay together, we shouldn't even bother to vote on the terms, because it would fracture the alliance regardless of the outcome of the vote. All the council vote did was reveal the *****s that had already formed in the alliance. The VA corporations expected something that Ragnar and TTI were not willing to give. Therefore, the council vote and resulting civil war were inevitable. In my opinion, it was TTI's--and specifically Ragnar's--inability to perceive the growing egativity towards them within their own alliance that led to their ultimate downfall. Or perhaps Ragnar did perceive it, but was merely so arrogant that he didn't believe TTI could be truly harmed. Or perhaps he miscalculated in the belief that more VA members would stand by TTI after he issued his ultimatum. I tend to think Ragnar believed that the alliance was loyal to TTI when, in reality, the alliance had grown quite disillusioned. I'd wager he felt that when he laid the full weight of TTI's economic power onto Jade's head, the rest of the alliance would turn against Jericho Fraction. And he was wrong about that. No one but Ragnar can say what was going through Ragnar's mind. However, perception is far more important than truth. And it was people's perception of events that led to the fracture of old VA. Truth has nothing to do with it. |
Reverend Necrona |
Posted - 2003.12.26 17:40:00 -
[121] I've given up argueing against you and others regarding the events - sure i'll add my views now and again, but to be frank when all you do is insult and patronise me it becomes little more than a school yard squabble. It's quite fine though, i know what went on. I know TTI was not this pirate alliance that had plans for world domination, i know Ragnar was no evil dictator and i know the majority of the views that are expressed today are either third hand or extremley misleading. |
Reverend Necrona Minmatar FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance |
Posted - 2003.12.26 17:40:00 -
[122] I've given up argueing against you and others regarding the events - sure i'll add my views now and again, but to be frank when all you do is insult and patronise me it becomes little more than a school yard squabble. It's quite fine though, i know what went on. I know TTI was not this pirate alliance that had plans for world domination, i know Ragnar was no evil dictator and i know the majority of the views that are expressed today are either third hand or extremley misleading. |
Killkool |
Posted - 2003.12.30 14:58:00 -
[123] Was in Venal region one time. Was the worsed experience i had.Just flying around in my newbie first before you enter the venal region you get podded by pirates. Later when come back you try it again too cross the venal region. Just want to go end of the system. You will be adressed till here and not further newbie this is our space. (by chin chin). I think by myself its everybodies space. Next i go in a station. talk a little with my corperation. when they let me in the blue platoon. And go further with my goal too reach the outer space. No way first i will cripled by chin chin. Next system i will be shot and podded again. So the venal regeion, Venal alliance or whatever is just pirate space too my view. As long as the venal alliance does not let people explore that region, but pod everybody, they have never seen heard of talked with they just a bunch of pirates. AK player since 3 weeks with this character |
 Killkool |
Posted - 2003.12.30 14:58:00 -
[124] Was in Venal region one time. Was the worsed experience i had.Just flying around in my newbie first before you enter the venal region you get podded by pirates. Later when come back you try it again too cross the venal region. Just want to go end of the system. You will be adressed till here and not further newbie this is our space. (by chin chin). I think by myself its everybodies space. Next i go in a station. talk a little with my corperation. when they let me in the blue platoon. And go further with my goal too reach the outer space. No way first i will cripled by chin chin. Next system i will be shot and podded again. So the venal regeion, Venal alliance or whatever is just pirate space too my view. As long as the venal alliance does not let people explore that region, but pod everybody, they have never seen heard of talked with they just a bunch of pirates. AK player since 3 weeks with this character |
Jehutty |
Posted - 2003.12.31 12:34:00 -
[125] Wow that gave me shivers down my back.You know I remember going into www.eve.i.com to read about the Great Venal war.I was a mere n0ob in the game,quite content with flying in my bantam in .4 space.I read the forumns about Ragnar when he was held up in some station.Wow that feels like forever ago and its crazy how things change.Pieman great coverage from my end and from what I have seen,the lil mistakes you may never work out,word of advice dont take the words of a powerhungry lil girl who turned on her alliance and voted to kick them out.Oh and I am starting to feel a lil nastalgic.........Venal paying pirates to do their dirty work that they cant handle,been there done that.From when I first logged on,I have watched the Venal area.First from intrigue,then turning in loathing!The one thing I have seen and noticed is that the Venal Region keeps getting poor leadership.Fighting amongst themselves and partys working against the Alliance and Venals favorite quote"it was done by another corp without our knowledge or consent".But the past is the past and Im sure that most people learn from it.Maybe the Nva will learn that the FE is the true powerhouse.NVA cannot handle NPC'S let alone another full blown attack by FE!Its a countdown now until then end Im wathcing for ya Mrs Jade  No matter how big No matter how strong It always boils down to name calling !!! |
 Jehutty Asha' Man Freelancer Alliance |
Posted - 2003.12.31 12:34:00 -
[126] Wow that gave me shivers down my back.You know I remember going into www.eve.i.com to read about the Great Venal war.I was a mere n0ob in the game,quite content with flying in my bantam in .4 space.I read the forumns about Ragnar when he was held up in some station.Wow that feels like forever ago and its crazy how things change.Pieman great coverage from my end and from what I have seen,the lil mistakes you may never work out,word of advice dont take the words of a powerhungry lil girl who turned on her alliance and voted to kick them out.Oh and I am starting to feel a lil nastalgic.........Venal paying pirates to do their dirty work that they cant handle,been there done that.From when I first logged on,I have watched the Venal area.First from intrigue,then turning in loathing!The one thing I have seen and noticed is that the Venal Region keeps getting poor leadership.Fighting amongst themselves and partys working against the Alliance and Venals favorite quote"it was done by another corp without our knowledge or consent".But the past is the past and Im sure that most people learn from it.Maybe the Nva will learn that the FE is the true powerhouse.NVA cannot handle NPC'S let alone another full blown attack by FE!Its a countdown now until then end Im wathcing for ya Mrs Jade No matter how big No matter how strong It always boils down to name calling !!! |
Jehutty |
Posted - 2003.12.31 12:52:00 -
[127] AHHHHH GREAT DT is over with,but b4 I logg back on I wanted to just state a lil summin that Mrs Jade has stated to me once..........cough...cough...ok here goes"Isnt it weird how Havanna and Jade seem to use the exact words and terms in the same way,maybe they went to Concord Grammar School together.Or would it be easier to assume yer one and the same,or just close close freinds No matter how big No matter how strong It always boils down to name calling !!! |
Jehutty Asha' Man Freelancer Alliance |
Posted - 2003.12.31 12:52:00 -
[128] AHHHHH GREAT DT is over with,but b4 I logg back on I wanted to just state a lil summin that Mrs Jade has stated to me once..........cough...cough...ok here goes"Isnt it weird how Havanna and Jade seem to use the exact words and terms in the same way,maybe they went to Concord Grammar School together.Or would it be easier to assume yer one and the same,or just close close freinds No matter how big No matter how strong It always boils down to name calling !!! |
Jade Constantine |
Posted - 2003.12.31 17:44:00 -
[129] So Jehutty, you are accusing Mademoiselle Havanna and I of being the same person are you? Interesting. Would it be fair to say you are staking your credibility on that charge monsieur? JF Public Forum |
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2003.12.31 17:44:00 -
[130] So Jehutty, you are accusing Mademoiselle Havanna and I of being the same person are you? Interesting. Would it be fair to say you are staking your credibility on that charge monsieur? JF Public Forum |
Reverend Necrona |
Posted - 2003.12.31 19:01:00 -
[131] This is hilarious. "We wanted to give TTI a chance ot have a breather, move out of venal and then start fighting again". Is this what your saying your intentions were? That you did not want to throw TTI out, but to simply ask them to leave for a bit while the VA recouperated. You in this very fking thread stated this. This is only one of your bulsh`t misleading lies that are spouted about the events. [Quote][ 2003.08.31 19:07:17 ] Ragnar > Howdy [ 2003.08.31 19:07:23 ] QBall > hello [ 2003.08.31 19:07:23 ] Ragnar > I am trying to get Roark in here [ 2003.08.31 19:07:36 ] QBall > i invited him [ 2003.08.31 19:07:45 ] Roark > Okay hey he is here good [ 2003.08.31 19:07:53 ] Roark > I will let Ragnar talk [ 2003.08.31 19:08:22 ] Ragnar > Okay where are you guys coming down on this vote today? [ 2003.08.31 19:09:00 ] QBall > Cyberdyne? [ 2003.08.31 19:09:44 ] Ragnar > Right [ 2003.08.31 19:09:52 ] QBall > wretch is handling the vote [ 2003.08.31 19:10:10 ] QBall > as he is CEO, and I'm pretty sure he's voting to split [ 2003.08.31 19:10:26 ] QBall > I went bar hopping last night didnt get to talk to him much [ 2003.08.31 19:10:30 ] Ragnar > He is voting to kick out TTI and SI right? [ 2003.08.31 19:10:49 ] QBall > I think so [ 2003.08.31 19:10:53 ] QBall > have to ask him though [ 2003.08.31 19:11:03 ] Ragnar > Okay just wanted to be sure. There is a rift coming and there is one side that is safe and one that is not. [ 2003.08.31 19:11:08 ] Roark > Yes that is right. [ 2003.08.31 19:11:34 ] QBall > hm... [ 2003.08.31 19:11:45 ] QBall > TTI gonna go loco on the VA if they get kicked? [ 2003.08.31 19:12:50 ] Ragnar > I just wanted to see where you stood on the matter... thanks[/Quote] Yea.... just while you recouperated. |
Reverend Necrona Minmatar FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance |
Posted - 2003.12.31 19:01:00 -
[132] This is hilarious. "We wanted to give TTI a chance ot have a breather, move out of venal and then start fighting again". Is this what your saying your intentions were? That you did not want to throw TTI out, but to simply ask them to leave for a bit while the VA recouperated. You in this very fking thread stated this. This is only one of your bulsh`t misleading lies that are spouted about the events. [Quote][ 2003.08.31 19:07:17 ] Ragnar > Howdy [ 2003.08.31 19:07:23 ] QBall > hello [ 2003.08.31 19:07:23 ] Ragnar > I am trying to get Roark in here [ 2003.08.31 19:07:36 ] QBall > i invited him [ 2003.08.31 19:07:45 ] Roark > Okay hey he is here good [ 2003.08.31 19:07:53 ] Roark > I will let Ragnar talk [ 2003.08.31 19:08:22 ] Ragnar > Okay where are you guys coming down on this vote today? [ 2003.08.31 19:09:00 ] QBall > Cyberdyne? [ 2003.08.31 19:09:44 ] Ragnar > Right [ 2003.08.31 19:09:52 ] QBall > wretch is handling the vote [ 2003.08.31 19:10:10 ] QBall > as he is CEO, and I'm pretty sure he's voting to split [ 2003.08.31 19:10:26 ] QBall > I went bar hopping last night didnt get to talk to him much [ 2003.08.31 19:10:30 ] Ragnar > He is voting to kick out TTI and SI right? [ 2003.08.31 19:10:49 ] QBall > I think so [ 2003.08.31 19:10:53 ] QBall > have to ask him though [ 2003.08.31 19:11:03 ] Ragnar > Okay just wanted to be sure. There is a rift coming and there is one side that is safe and one that is not. [ 2003.08.31 19:11:08 ] Roark > Yes that is right. [ 2003.08.31 19:11:34 ] QBall > hm... [ 2003.08.31 19:11:45 ] QBall > TTI gonna go loco on the VA if they get kicked? [ 2003.08.31 19:12:50 ] Ragnar > I just wanted to see where you stood on the matter... thanks[/Quote] Yea.... just while you recouperated. |
Jade Constantine |
Posted - 2003.12.31 19:24:00 -
[133] For the record Tehel, I always wanted TTI booted if they refused to support the proportional funding concept. The idea of "faked withdrawl" never impressed me much. Some people liked it, I could never see a way it would work, and considered it ridiculous and dishonest. What is funny about that log you posted is the fact that Ragnar and Roark are the same person. Its pretty damned funny that he was roleplaying with himself to try to get "himself" into the channel ;) Thats almost comedy gold in itself. JF Public Forum |
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2003.12.31 19:24:00 -
[134] For the record Tehel, I always wanted TTI booted if they refused to support the proportional funding concept. The idea of "faked withdrawl" never impressed me much. Some people liked it, I could never see a way it would work, and considered it ridiculous and dishonest. What is funny about that log you posted is the fact that Ragnar and Roark are the same person. Its pretty damned funny that he was roleplaying with himself to try to get "himself" into the channel ;) Thats almost comedy gold in itself. JF Public Forum |
syndic4te |
Posted - 2004.01.01 13:24:00 -
[135] Edited by: syndic4te on 01/01/2004 13:29:57 Edited by: syndic4te on 01/01/2004 13:27:58 Edited by: syndic4te on 01/01/2004 13:26:33 THE BEGINING OF THE VA = The VENAL ALLIANCE was formed by Morpheous, who was also the creater of Venal Gaurdians. Corporations based in Venal were welcomed to join the Alliance, so many did. Apart from the industrial corporations in venal, a lot of pirate groups we're invited to join. Most of the pirates worked around the entrance to venal, Tribute/PureBlind. At the start it was good, everyone worked well together and fromed when there was hostiles. We didn't allow anyone in the region, so an average traveler who didn't have a vistors pass would be destroyed. Visitor passes would be obtained by the directors of Venal, but people started giving passes and they would only recieve the isk, so we decided to not give passes anymore and only friends would get passes. We also had NAP's with a lot of Corporations at that time. I remember we had about 40 pilots in a gang when Moo and Sinster came up and we killed a few of them, the biggest problem we had was with Evolution in the beginning. Letting Jericho join was the biggest mistake we made, seeing how jade decided to raise havoc and create a civial war. well im sure everyone knows about that. Wuts done is done, although i think the VA was the best alliance in eve, good teamwork. --- --- |
 syndic4te Amarr |
Posted - 2004.01.01 13:24:00 -
[136] Edited by: syndic4te on 01/01/2004 13:29:57 Edited by: syndic4te on 01/01/2004 13:27:58 Edited by: syndic4te on 01/01/2004 13:26:33 THE BEGINING OF THE VA = The VENAL ALLIANCE was formed by Morpheous, who was also the creater of Venal Gaurdians. Corporations based in Venal were welcomed to join the Alliance, so many did. Apart from the industrial corporations in venal, a lot of pirate groups we're invited to join. Most of the pirates worked around the entrance to venal, Tribute/PureBlind. At the start it was good, everyone worked well together and fromed when there was hostiles. We didn't allow anyone in the region, so an average traveler who didn't have a vistors pass would be destroyed. Visitor passes would be obtained by the directors of Venal, but people started giving passes and they would only recieve the isk, so we decided to not give passes anymore and only friends would get passes. We also had NAP's with a lot of Corporations at that time. I remember we had about 40 pilots in a gang when Moo and Sinster came up and we killed a few of them, the biggest problem we had was with Evolution in the beginning. Letting Jericho join was the biggest mistake we made, seeing how jade decided to raise havoc and create a civial war. well im sure everyone knows about that. Wuts done is done, although i think the VA was the best alliance in eve, good teamwork. |
vf142rex |
Posted - 2004.01.01 14:49:00 -
[137] VA got beat by evolution once, and then by FA once,,,I wouldn't call it the best alliance in the game. |
vf142rex Minmatar |
Posted - 2004.01.01 14:49:00 -
[138] VA got beat by evolution once, and then by FA once,,,I wouldn't call it the best alliance in the game. |
 Banker Bilo |
Posted - 2007.08.03 22:34:00 -
[139] |
 Sakura Nihil Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2007.08.03 22:36:00 -
[140] Edited by: Sakura Nihil on 03/08/2007 22:36:44
/headshot ps: Free Jade! |
 Blazde 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2007.08.03 23:19:00 -
[141] Gotta be said after reading this: the quality of CAOD has slipped  _ |
 Nestor Ne'Arthe Amarr Convergent Firmus Ixion |
Posted - 2007.08.04 01:03:00 -
[142] Phoenix Alliance, roll out! I agree with the above, please unban Jade for the daily dose of forum entertainment, I miss him a bit ;-) -- |
 Steve Holt D00M. Triumvirate. |
Posted - 2007.08.04 01:06:00 -
[143] i smell necromancy afoot |
 ReForMatt Generals Of Destruction Syndicate |
Posted - 2007.08.04 14:21:00 -
[144] Funny how looking back you think man that was a great time and how I miss the days.... Hard to give a total perspective from one time zones views to the other VA-NVA-PA but all in all good times. Good Post KIA GODS NUFF SAID!! |
 Scyd Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department  |
Posted - 2007.08.04 14:35:00 -
[145] RIP |
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