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New module that lowers damage/minimitar racial EW to replace TP?

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Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.04.02 17:30:00 - [31] Edited by: Sokratesz on 02/04/2007 17:26:29 Originally by: VJ Maverick Your "news flash" is not on point. I know about the turret guide. Nothing in there says anything about a bigger signature radius giving you higher quality hits. As far as I know if your guns already have a signature resolution of 400, it doesn't matter if your target has a signature radius of 400 or 1000000000. So my question remains. Youre missing the point. As long as target sig radius <<< missile explo radius or gun sig radius, increasing it will yield MORE hits. Webbing the target will yield BETTER hits. Result = same, more damage, but a combination is deadly Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly Radio is essential for Amarr, to call the much needed backup...
VJ Maverick Caldari Maverick Specialized Services	Posted - 2007.04.02 17:58:00 - [32] Edited by: VJ Maverick on 02/04/2007 17:54:39 Originally by: Sokratesz Edited by: Sokratesz on 02/04/2007 17:26:29 Originally by: VJ Maverick Your "news flash" is not on point. I know about the turret guide. Nothing in there says anything about a bigger signature radius giving you higher quality hits. As far as I know if your guns already have a signature resolution of 400, it doesn't matter if your target has a signature radius of 400 or 1000000000. So my question remains. Youre missing the point. As long as target sig radius <<< missile explo radius or gun sig radius, increasing it will yield MORE hits. Webbing the target will yield BETTER hits. Result = same, more damage, but a combination is deadly I'm not missing the point. I know exactly what TP's do and the relationship between sig radius and sig resolution/explosion radius and I still think that the TP is mostly a worthless module. I wish the TP increased damage done and quality of hits regardless of the above relationship, but sadly, it does not. The TP will ONLY help you against a target that is smaller than your guns. I don't need help for those targets. Also, there was a test done that proved that "quality" of hits was a completely random distribution and was not at all affected by TP's, signature radius or tracking. I can't locate it ATM but I'll look. If anybody else knows what I'm talking about, and knows where it is, please post it.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.04.02 18:03:00 - [33] Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 02/04/2007 17:59:11 He wasn't missing the point. Somebody earlier in the thread claimed there was specifically a direct correlation between hit quality and signature radius. There is not, no more than there is for Tracking Computers or Webbers, even though they all in theory increase the number of hits. Personally, I think Target Painters are cool, though they could be tweaked to have somewhat greater an effect. What isn't cool about them is that they're the Minni racial EW. While they're occasionally useful modules, they're not often game changers in the way that Damps, ECM, and TD are. The OP idea doesn't seem like a horrible way of addressing that disparity, though I'm making no judgement on the specific numbers. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
heheheh Singularity. The Cartel.	Posted - 2007.04.02 18:34:00 - [34] Edited by: heheheh on 02/04/2007 18:32:44 Originally by: VJ Maverick Edited by: VJ Maverick on 02/04/2007 17:54:39 Originally by: Sokratesz Edited by: Sokratesz on 02/04/2007 17:26:29 Originally by: VJ Maverick Your "news flash" is not on point. I know about the turret guide. Nothing in there says anything about a bigger signature radius giving you higher quality hits. As far as I know if your guns already have a signature resolution of 400, it doesn't matter if your target has a signature radius of 400 or 1000000000. So my question remains. Youre missing the point. As long as target sig radius <<< missile explo radius or gun sig radius, increasing it will yield MORE hits. Webbing the target will yield BETTER hits. Result = same, more damage, but a combination is deadly I'm not missing the point. I know exactly what TP's do and the relationship between sig radius and sig resolution/explosion radius and I still think that the TP is mostly a worthless module. I wish the TP increased damage done and quality of hits regardless of the above relationship, but sadly, it does not. The TP will ONLY help you against a target that is smaller than your guns. I don't need help for those targets. Also, there was a test done that proved that "quality" of hits was a completely random distribution and was not at all affected by TP's, signature radius or tracking. I can't locate it ATM but I'll look. If anybody else knows what I'm talking about, and knows where it is, please post it. heres an answer in your own style, Proove it isnt or stfu. see i too can post like a wow brat !!
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.04.02 19:17:00 - [35] Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 02/04/2007 19:13:40 Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 02/04/2007 17:59:11 He wasn't missing the point. Somebody earlier in the thread claimed there was specifically a direct correlation between hit quality and signature radius. There is not, no more than there is for Tracking Computers or Webbers, even though they all in theory increase the number of hits. Blech. Looks like I misremembered: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=275675&page=2#57 So when tracking is involved, it does have a direct correlation to hit quality (except for Wrecking shots) though there's a limit to how much increasing sig radius will impact this. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
G Dabak Magellanic Itg GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.04.02 20:03:00 - [36] TPs shouldn't be a racial EW. Minmatar EW should be a module that hurts gun sig resolution and missile explosion radius.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.04.02 21:30:00 - [37] Personally, I think matari EW ships should get ECM bonuses, it fits more with the whole hit & run concept minmatar supposedly have, plus whereÆs it say ECM is a caldari-only thing? ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.04.02 22:04:00 - [38] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Personally, I think matari EW ships should get ECM bonuses, it fits more with the whole hit & run concept minmatar supposedly have, plus whereÆs it say ECM is a caldari-only thing? My fantasy EVE EW system is something like that, with ECM being split up into High and Med slot varieties. Caldari getting bonuses to the former, and Minnie the latter, plus some general tweaks to ECM generally. I'd keep TPs, but they wouldn't be a race specific EW. It's probably not a great idea, it would definitely anger a lot of people, and it's never, ever going to happen, but I'd love to see it. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Sionide Axe Gang	Posted - 2007.04.02 23:55:00 - [39] Though I have never used TP, so perhaps I stand corrected; but to me TP is just not the same (read as useful) as the other EWs. tracking disrupter = destroys gun tracking. sensor dampening = slow lock time (in the minutes for bs) and lowers targeting range by a lot if a few are used. jamming = well, yeah that ship(s) can't do s*** to you (still very damn useful/owning!) now TP = larger sig radius. Oh good, you mean other ships can now lock it faster and oh more hits and perhaps hits for more. Perhaps the different is significant, anyone actually test by how much? I would be interested. But as it stands, if I knew of a caldari, gallente, or amarr (nos) EW ship in the system. I would think twice of engaging. As for a matar ship fitted with TP...I wouldn't think twice.
Revolution Rising Venture Research and Resources Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.04.03 00:18:00 - [40] Edited by: Revolution Rising on 03/04/2007 00:15:52 Originally by: Smelt Down What about creating a midslot item that is like a reverse gyro, lowering damage and ROF. It is not unbalanced because A) it is easily countered with a gyro, and B) Targets can still fight back, so I don't think it would be any stronger than something like a sensor damp. I don't know what numbers would be best to use, maybe 15% for T1 and 20% for T2? Currently all minmitar EW ships (bellicose, huginn, rapier) have a completely wasted bonus due to target painting. The vigil does too, but who cares about EW frigates. This follows the rest of the races EW that has a unique way at limiting damage. Caldari = jamming, gallente = sensor damp, amarr = tracking disrupt, and minmitar = damage reduce. Target painters are completely useless. People can say that in a fleet you can target a ship and then target paint it so others can target it quicker, but due to lag, and the fact that target painters don't do all that much (35% for best named? it would need to be 400% to have any noticable effect), combined with how fast people die in large battles without target painters, they would change nothing. Even without bonuses you would ALWAYS be better off going with a sensor damp or tracking disruptor. Why not replace target painters with this item? I have been saying this for a year or so... But I would be more happy if the bellicose gave a +jam strength/+damp strength bonus to EW drones - in order to keep it differentiated from other EW racial ships. It is indeed the only EW ship that has a drone bay smaller than a BS I believe. Rev. CEO Venture Research and Resources.
Wrayeth Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.04.03 01:01:00 - [41] Edited by: Wrayeth on 03/04/2007 00:58:16 If Matari were primarily a missile race, target painters might be a valid racial EW for them. However, they are not. Target painters should just become a general module and a new module should be created to replace them. I suggest a module that interferes with the target's tanking systems - reduces passive shield recharge, boost amount of shield boosters, and repair amount of armor repairers. It doesn't have to be huge, but it should be noticable. EDIT: Forgot to add that they should be like ECM - mostly worthless except on dedicated ships. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
Revolution Rising Venture Research and Resources Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.04.03 01:19:00 - [42] Originally by: Wrayeth Edited by: Wrayeth on 03/04/2007 00:58:16 If Matari were primarily a missile race, target painters might be a valid racial EW for them. However, they are not. Exactly. Rev. CEO Venture Research and Resources.
Tista	Posted - 2007.04.03 02:15:00 - [43] ma raven goes a lil like this(i got lvl 5 compensation skills): 6 torp II 2 of what ever the mood is like 1 xl booster II 1 invuln II 1 passive therm amp II 1 passive em amp II 1 electrochem LARGE:D 1 target painter II 2 PDS II 1 dcu II 2 bcu II 2 rof rigs 5 painter drones 5 light drones rage torps hit battleships like capital ships... 800 damage each.. yes please a 8 second rof
Tista	Posted - 2007.04.03 02:17:00 - [44] i hope you all relise that sig radius effects turrets as much as missiles? you get more wreckers/excellent hits if the sig radius is bigger.. and you track easier.
Harry Voyager Obscurity LLC	Posted - 2007.04.03 03:08:00 - [45] Originally by: VJ Maverick Originally by: WYLEE C0Y0TE Edited by: WYLEE C0Y0TE on 02/04/2007 08:25:20 Originally by: VJ Maverick Originally by: Taurevanime Originally by: VJ Maverick Originally by: Deimos Regal I think a lot of people don't know that TP help every weapon. Not just missiles. Everything that does damage be it missiles, guns, or drones, uses sig radius of a target to determine chance to hit and damage dealt. So, by fitting a TP you increase all of your damage. Ok. Lets say I have a battleship with large guns and a TP. I'm fighting another battleship that has the same type of weapons as mine but he doesn't have a TP. Please explain to me what my advantage is. Actually, don't bother. I already know the answer. I'm actually at a disadvantage because I just wasted a midslot on a module that doesn't help me in any way. Say you're both in a Tempest, the signature radius on that ship is 340m, the signature resolution of your guns is 400m. If all conditions are perfect for accuracy for both of you (range and speed and angle) he will still miss you sometimes to do reduced damage. While your one TP increases his resolution to 452m, meaning you not only get more hits you also get more critical hits on him. So it makes a difference though it's not as noticable as the other race EW. As stated TP are for gang use not for solo unless you're flying a missile boat. With that said I like the idea about TP and it's suits the Minmatar, focusing on doing more damage to the enemy as opposed to reducing the ammount of damage the enemy deals. Can it be mathematically substantiated that TP increae the "quality" of your hits? News Flash Your "news flash" is not on point. I know about the turret guide. Nothing in there says anything about a bigger signature radius giving you higher quality hits. As far as I know if your guns already have a signature resolution of 400, it doesn't matter if your target has a signature radius of 400 or 1000000000. So my question remains. You're really dense, aren't you? Here's the rub. Just using the base weapon, with the sig resolution jacked up to 400m, against a 340m target with a transverse of 400m/s, you deal 2.95 dps. Against a 459m target, with that same transverse of 400m/s you deal 4.0 dps, or around a 35% net change. This holds for all weapons, though as the tracking vrs transverse approaches perfection, this ratio does drop. I would consider a 35% net change a pretty substantial change, but perhaps you disagree? Harry Voyager
William Hamilton	Posted - 2007.04.03 03:35:00 - [46] The ting is this.... For targets that already have a sig radius equal to your guns sig resolution target painters give NO bonuses at beyond optimal. For a target that already has a sig size equal to your missile's explosion radius painters give no advantage at all... In other cases they are fine. May I moved that painters get changed from a sig radius increase to thees three things acting in concert: a) A gun hit-chance increase b) A missile damage-reduction decrease c) A locking time decrease This way it acts essentially the same as current for "smaller" targets, but it now gets some usefulness for bigger targets too....
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.03 04:02:00 - [47] Target painters are definitely the weakest EW when compared to sensor damps, jammers, and even tracking disruptors. I'd go for a slight boost to target painters, such as giving them -5% to enemy shield/armor resistances, stacking penalized.
Chavu The Shadow Order Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.03 08:48:00 - [48] Well here is why that module is completely useless: I will never fit one on my Huginn or Rapier. Why? Because if I have 2x Fleeting webs on a target, that ship is barely moving anymore. And if that ship isn't moving, that any BS or heck BC with guns will be able to shred it apart sniper style. Quality of hits doesn't matter, when an inty is going 50-100m/s and transversal can be cut down to almost nothing, it is a dead inty. In another example, if I use a target painter on a BS, using BS guns I will see almost no difference, and yes use the tracking guide to check this for yourself. Since this module also only really helps versus smaller targets, and let's see ECM, RSD, TD do not; yes this module really does suck. And lastly, try using a target painter and do not tell anyone, turn it on mid battle and wait for the screams of "omg my damage went up crazy-like" on voice comms. No, you don't hear the voices? Hmmmmm A bellicose with a MWD and 3x RSD is way better than target painters....
Spaced Skunk D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.04.03 09:36:00 - [49] Minmatar is about offensive to be honest. Target Painters are offensive. All the other EW is not, disables the target in some way. I like offensive.
Zhulik Abyss Restless	Posted - 2007.04.04 05:26:00 - [50] Edited by: Zhulik on 04/04/2007 05:23:17 Well, TPs are actually bearable and even useful on some rare occasions if the girl is willing to do it and you both are already drunk. The main problem with those is that any hug/rapier pilot would rather fit another web on his ship than a TP. (I would, so everyone else surely should feel the same way. Marvel at my undeniable logic!) I think it is clear that the obvious solution to this would be to nerf webs to oblivion. Edit: what's wrong with me?! ---------- Not making sense is what I do for living.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.04 05:47:00 - [51] Originally by: William Hamilton For targets that already have a sig radius equal to your guns sig resolution target painters give NO bonuses at beyond optimal. This is fasle Sig radius == tracking a 35% sig radius bonus == 35% tracking bonus The only difference is that 1) Sig radius penalties are stacking penalized 2) Tracking bonuses work for 1 ship against all ships, sig radius penalties work for all ships against 1 ship. The first solution[before making other changes] sould be to make sig radius penalties that come from target painters not stacking penalized, which would allow a TP specialist to realy "light someone up" ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.04.04 05:59:00 - [52] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Blech. Looks like I misremembered: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=275675&page=2#57 So when tracking is involved, it does have a direct correlation to hit quality (except for Wrecking shots) though there's a limit to how much increasing sig radius will impact this. So that goes for the webbers (reducing target speed - reducing needed tracking), but whats the official word on the TPs now? Maybe CCP can show us the formula ;)) Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly Radio is essential for Amarr, to call the much needed backup...
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.04 06:01:00 - [53] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Blech. Looks like I misremembered: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=275675&page=2#57 So when tracking is involved, it does have a direct correlation to hit quality (except for Wrecking shots) though there's a limit to how much increasing sig radius will impact this. So that goes for the webbers (reducing target speed - reducing needed tracking), but whats the official word on the TPs now? Maybe CCP can show us the formula ;)) Stickied at the top of the page. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.04 06:18:00 - [54] Right now, target painter can increase damage for missile users. But for turret users, web is much more helpful than a target painter. How about we agree to boost Target Painters by giving them ability to reduce enemy shield/armor resistances by 5%? that way target painter would suit its purpose even better - by letting friendly gang do more damage to the enemy. It's something a web can't do.
Sarin Crest	Posted - 2007.04.04 09:51:00 - [55] I think theres no doubt that target painters are useful, maybe just not useful enough. I don't think they should be radically changed though. I'd propose the addition of a secondary effect. bonus to signature radius of target + bonus to targets guns signature resolution - or something like that.
Taurevanime	Posted - 2007.04.04 09:53:00 - [56] I think a reduction in resistances would make it too overpowered in a way. And we'd see nothing but TP's on ships from then on if they did that. I guess a target painter is like a tracking and damage increase bonus. So instead of just having the sig size increase it has now which renders it less valluable against already large targets, maybe it should just give a pure increased damage and tracking bonus for ships firering at that target. Of course the numbers picked for it need to be picked carefully not to create an overpowered module that does away with tracking computers and gyros as a result. Or they simply boost the strength of them so that it gives a discerbable difference without having to do an hours worth of math. Not to mention make it a more usefull thing to use on Tier 3 battleships even.
darkmancer	Posted - 2007.04.04 11:38:00 - [57] I'm sure it's been suggested before but allowing you to follow the ship you target painted into warp would be a cool feature. --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong

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