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Please fix the lag in Jita/Motsu/etc.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 11 post(s)
Ralara Caldari Lilandri Foundation	Posted - 2007.04.07 19:34:00 - [61] Originally by: CCP Sharkbait it's not about the numbers as such really. alot of people who used to pass through jita don't have to anymore and are using the new route. i'm sure they are noticing it. also although jita is still high load, before the changes it was always at 100% cpu. now it doesn't rest at 100% cpu, quite offen it is only at 80-90%. i just checked and we are in peak hour and jita is only at 92% cpu. thats alot better than it was tbh. Well "tbh", I was in Jita yesterday and had to file a stuck petition since I couldnt undock without the black screen in the way for over 10 minutes. So no, we're not noticing it. Look, I don't mean to say you're rubbish. You're not making it lag on purpose and as I say, I'm sure if you knew of an easy way, then you'd implement it without hesitation. o The problem with the Jita area is it's too "easy" to get too - too many jump points into it. o The station faces the wrong way for some of the jump gates - turn it (or move it - 4-4 this is) so that it faces all jumpgates on undock, so we dont have to reverse into the station and bump. o Motsu and Saila - both massive mission hubs - are right next door - move these agents away from Jita. It's too easy to make 2 or 3 jumps and sell your stuff in Jita. Spread them out a bit (but keep them away from Torrinos!! ;) ) o Add some more Q18 agents (or other high quality agents) to the surrounding areas - also add a few for the other races, so to keep things balanced. It cna't be that hard. A big popup saying "you don't actually have to run missions for XXX Navy to get a Navy YYY ship, by the way!" notice would help! Nearly everyone there is there because: 1) They think think that the Navy is the only way to get a CNR. 2) They've realised it isn't but have got so many LP there, that they can't move (peopel with 300, 400k LP). Now I know Rev 2.0 is coming up with this "shop" thing for agents, but for the love of god, make it FACTION wide, not corp wide, so these people can spread out to other corporations and maintain their LP. Else people will just stay there in Motsu, Saila and then sell things in Jita. You know it. I know it. Everyone on the forums knows it. The players know it. Why not just change it? Who's going to complain?? There is no downside. Lag goes down, population spreads out, missionrunners use other corps... what is the downside?? I'm a corp thief. And remember, I only do it because I like your robot.
Pardack State War Academy	Posted - 2007.04.07 19:36:00 - [62] Originally by: CCP Sharkbait Originally by: Ralara Edited by: Ralara on 07/04/2007 18:55:17 Originally by: CCP Sharkbait they did have a big impact, altho you can't see it so clearly, we can. so effectively, your new strategies havent actually solved the situation for the players? A few numbers on your spreadsheet have changed, but for us, the lag is still just about the same as normal, eh? Is that what you just said? That what you did, had a "big impact" but the players "can't see it" - as in, we still have the lag? In that case: Fail. To put it bluntly. I know, I know, it's not easy. If you had a quick and easy fix you'd have done it a year ago. Random idea: set a timer on missions: do a mission for an agent, you cant do another for 4 hours (like the decline option). You have to find another agent in the corp. That way, people don't stay in one hub. ? it's not about the numbers as such really. alot of people who used to pass through jita don't have to anymore and are using the new route. i'm sure they are noticing it. also although jita is still high load, before the changes it was always at 100% cpu. now it doesn't rest at 100% cpu, quite offen it is only at 80-90%. i just checked and we are in peak hour and jita is only at 92% cpu. thats alot better than it was tbh. Originally by: qrac Edited by: qrac on 07/04/2007 19:11:26 Originally by: CCP Sharkbait this is a good idea and has been talked about before now and is still an option. at the moment we can only have a system loaded on 1 node, but this is being looked into and if we can get around that then we maybe move the missions to another node within the same system. maybe even have slave nodes for nodes. it's another thing that is being looked into. What kind of complications are we looking at? Can two nodes share the same market or is the market tied to a node? The "local" chat should be shareable between nodes. Scanning could be solved by making the outside world invisible from inside the deadspace pocket and vice versa (except for the gate into it). I'm guessing that some (probably a lot) of code which depends on the node (maybe like "Assets in current system") needs changing and is only a shortterm solution. Slavenodes and several nodes within a system would be preferable. Btw is this something you have started working on or is it still in planning? It's kind of hard to make any suggestions without knowing the architecture of the nodes and systems. in testing, when we have the same system loaded on 2 nodes it goes completely bonkers. causes massive lag as people are trying to do things on 2 nodes, causes massive serverside memory leaks and causes clients to disconnect alot. the market regions are run on different nodes and they don't lag really. there are 4 market nodes (2 machines) and they are only at about 10% cpu. so thats not the problem really. chat channels i think are handled by the proxies and are kinda connected to everything as in theroy there could be a person on every node in the same chat channel. Please don't give up on this. As I've said, it's not an easy task to do, but in the long run I firmly belive this approach (not only two CPUs per system, but multiple if needed) is the long term solution. There are so many unused and/or under-used sytems out there. They CPU time is literally being wasted. Dynamically allocating CPUs to where it is needed is the crux IMO. If that can be technically sorted, I see a much brighter future for EVE. Currently, you may as well be running BOINC on the cluster, as a majority of it is sitting there really doing nothing most of the time.
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.04.07 19:37:00 - [63] Originally by: CCP Sharkbait i bet if i said i wanted to jump off a cliff none of you would try to stop me. move a few agents, well..................... Don't say that. You're awesome and we need you. I always liked the idea of dynamic agent quality. Agents who get used too much start paying less, and the agents in the middle of nowhere are desperate to have their missions done and offer better rewards. - - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - "We need to invent a new Clue Super Weapon... Something that distributes clue on a never before seen level." -Cpt Psycho
qrac Caldari Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.04.07 19:57:00 - [64] Originally by: CCP Sharkbait in testing, when we have the same system loaded on 2 nodes it goes completely bonkers. causes massive lag as people are trying to do things on 2 nodes, causes massive serverside memory leaks and causes clients to disconnect alot. So no cloning the system and running it on 2 nodes, synching them and then making a handover I was thinking more of treating a deadspace pocket like a new system on another node but with market access etc to the "real" system. In worst case you could probably implement it fairly quickly by treating it as an entire different system by removing the system dependant services. All you would have then is "empty" (except for the deadspace pocket) cloned systems running on dedicated mission nodes. -------------------------------------------
qrac Caldari Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.04.07 19:59:00 - [65] Originally by: Frug I always liked the idea of dynamic agent quality. Agents who get used too much start paying less, and the agents in the middle of nowhere are desperate to have their missions done and offer better rewards. It used to be like that, in the sense that agents only handed out a certain number of missions between downtimes. -------------------------------------------
Par'Gellen Gallente Low Grade Ore	Posted - 2007.04.07 20:04:00 - [66] Edited by: Par''Gellen on 07/04/2007 20:01:11 Simple fix: Get rid of agent quality levels and re-distribute agents by level/division evenly across the entire universe map. People might be annoyed but they'll get over it. End of problem. Someone in authority needs to slam a hand down on the meeting table and yell "Just get it bloody done!". --- CCP : Save my mousewheel!
Pardack State War Academy	Posted - 2007.04.07 20:06:00 - [67] Originally by: CCP Sharkbait in testing, when we have the same system loaded on 2 nodes it goes completely bonkers. causes massive lag as people are trying to do things on 2 nodes, causes massive serverside memory leaks and causes clients to disconnect alot. Memory leaks can be a pain but they are definately traceable. It will take 'some' (as in a LOT) of time to fix but it is a very doable job. Is the lag caused by the memory leaks or from sheer server processing or something else that you don't know?
Barbarellas Daughter Lonely Barbarella	Posted - 2007.04.07 20:07:00 - [68] Originally by: qrac Originally by: CCP Sharkbait in testing, when we have the same system loaded on 2 nodes it goes completely bonkers. causes massive lag as people are trying to do things on 2 nodes, causes massive serverside memory leaks and causes clients to disconnect alot. So no cloning the system and running it on 2 nodes, synching them and then making a handover I was thinking more of treating a deadspace pocket like a new system on another node but with market access etc to the "real" system. In worst case you could probably implement it fairly quickly by treating it as an entire different system by removing the system dependant services. All you would have then is "empty" (except for the deadspace pocket) cloned systems running on dedicated mission nodes. Yeah, just show messages like: You cannot connect to market/assets/bookmarks/etc while being in a deadspace.
DeadRow Magnificent Beavers Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.04.07 20:12:00 - [69] Get rid of Agent Quality and have set value for each level; 2 = 3.00 Standings, 3 = 4.00 Standings, 4 = 7.00 Standings (basically the standings needed for top Quality atm). Means that players aren't tied to one system to get the most lp/mission they cam. Thats my opinion anyways. /DeadRow snip - signature removed, please email us with a link if you wish to know why. -Ivan K
Pardack State War Academy	Posted - 2007.04.07 20:24:00 - [70] Originally by: DeadRow Get rid of Agent Quality and have set value for each level; 2 = 3.00 Standings, 3 = 4.00 Standings, 4 = 7.00 Standings (basically the standings needed for top Quality atm). Means that players aren't tied to one system to get the most lp/mission they cam. Thats my opinion anyways. That's a good idea. Higher level agents should IMO give higher rewards (which they usually do) than lower level, higher standings would be a plus. The problem this doesn't solve is that LPs currently are still tied to a specific agent. So once you start running missions for one, you're tied to that agent if you want to spend your LPs. Maybe removing agent quality, spreading them out over more space AND allowing for Corp/Faction offers instead of specific agent offers or an 'LP Store' where you can trade in your LPs for 'stuff' would be some good ideas to 'spread things out' more.

Par'Gellen Gallente Low Grade Ore	Posted - 2007.04.07 21:00:00 - [71] Originally by: Pardack Maybe removing agent quality, spreading them out over more space AND allowing for Corp/Faction offers instead of specific agent offers or an 'LP Store' where you can trade in your LPs for 'stuff' would be some good ideas to 'spread things out' more. Well they already said the LP Store thing was going to happen so I take that as a given. --- CCP : Save my mousewheel!
Pardack State War Academy	Posted - 2007.04.07 21:13:00 - [72] Edited by: Pardack on 07/04/2007 21:13:54 Originally by: Par'Gellen Originally by: Pardack Maybe removing agent quality, spreading them out over more space AND allowing for Corp/Faction offers instead of specific agent offers or an 'LP Store' where you can trade in your LPs for 'stuff' would be some good ideas to 'spread things out' more. Well they already said the LP Store thing was going to happen so I take that as a given. CCP has said a lot in the past Invariably things get pushed back and back-seated for an indefinate period of time. I've no doubt that the 'LP Store' will eventually happen. WHEN it will happen is a whole other story. IIRC, Revelations was to be ONE patch. Then after time, it was divided up into Rev1, Rev2, Rev3 etc.
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.04.07 21:35:00 - [73] That's got little to do with CCP specifically. If you follow software development much (particularly game release dates) you know that's normal. - - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - "We need to invent a new Clue Super Weapon... Something that distributes clue on a never before seen level." -Cpt Psycho
Pardack State War Academy	Posted - 2007.04.07 21:50:00 - [74] Originally by: Frug That's got little to do with CCP specifically. If you follow software development much (particularly game release dates) you know that's normal. I'm aware. As I stated it's not really IF it's going to happen, but WHEN. The Saila/Motsu lag problem has been around for months with no appreciable change. Even with the latest 'need for speed' patch, no difference is noticed. It all gets back to what the user experiences, not about the numbers on the server (though they are very useful). If the cluster is running 20% more efficiently than before yet people in the Saila/Motsu area suffer the same lag, that indicates a more systematic problem (as is the case). Overall the cluster is running better, but there are still pockets of space (empire, low-sec and 0.0) that constantly have lag. Whether it's player actions, server performance or something else, the player still experiences the same lag. That's the main sticking point, the user experience.
Pooka Caldari United Space Aillance USA	Posted - 2007.04.07 22:19:00 - [75] Edited by: Pooka on 07/04/2007 22:26:05 Originally by: CCP Sharkbait all lv5 agents put into 0.0 all lv4 agents moved to 0.0 and low sec. all lv3 agents moved to 0.2 - 0.6 sec systems. all lv2's and lv1's found in 0.6 and higher. OK putting on Nomex flame suit. Fact (IMHO): Most pepole are in over crowded Empire space Fact (IMHO): LOTs of players are solo players and don't have time to do much more then run missions along with a little mining. So move lvl 3 agents to 0.4 to 0.6 space ALONG WITH Concord. Pepole move, lagg reduces every one happy. Piratz should be happy because this groups them up tigher so they can kill each other. PROMISES MADE PROMISES KEPT Word: p·ca (POO-kuh) [pu:k@] Meaning: p·ca = goblin, sp
Gone'Postal Minmatar LuthorCorp Combat Division	Posted - 2007.04.07 22:42:00 - [76] Been said before but why not just make LP corp wide, Not the players corp, mission agents. Mission runners could then run ANY mission from any agent from the same corp and still have one pool of LP. the only bonus would be higher the mission level the more salvage,loot ect ect. or find an agent and when asking for a mission have the agent ask what level mission the player wants to run ? mission runners then won't need teh same agent, they would just need AN agent to run missions. Originally by: Dark Shikari Anyone comparing CCP to a glacier is really not being fair to the glacier. Tripping The Rift Since 2005
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.04.08 11:53:00 - [77] Well, for starters, from a RP perspective, agent hubs MIGHT have some logical value, but from a gameplay perspective, there really shouldn't be more than ONE L4 agent per corp per system, and preferably not even more than one L4 "kill-mainly" type of agent in a system and immediate neighbours, regardless of corp/faction. What DOES make sense however, is having a L1, L2, L3 and a L4 "kill" agent for the same corp in the same system or at most 1 jump away. That being said, it's not the "Motsu/Saila region triangle", it's actually the "Aramachi/Motsu/Saila/Laah rhombus" that's being affected. First off, the C.N. Aramachi agent is better for all intents and purposes as the main Motsu agent, at least for people with decent social skills. Second, missions are ALMOST always assigned in the "rhombus", so no wonder you have all four systems heavily affected by lag. Would it be SUCH a crime to move away 2,3 or even 4 jumps in differet directions the Saila/Motsu agents ? I mean, the Aramachi one, you'd have to move it pretty far away in another 0.5 system, but systems with same sec as Saila/Motsu abound in the vicinity, andthey're not nearly as populated. _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
Dukath Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.04.08 12:23:00 - [78] Originally by: CCP Sharkbait jita - agent and market hub motsu - agent hub saila - agent hub we are looking into more changes, but at the moment there is nothing that can be done. the load/lag is causes by the amount of people trading or doing missions in the system and every play has the same right to be there as anyone else. the only way to clear the lag from the systems at the moment is to move the agents away from them. if we do that then we are just movingthe load to another system. there is alot of effort, both in code and worldshaping (balancing the map) to sort these systems out. we made changes for revelations 1.3 and they did have a big impact, altho you can't see it so clearly, we can. basically all i can suggest for the time being is to avoid the systems. Sharbait, i'm frankly appalled that this has not been solved yet when the solution is so mindboggling simple. Agent has a quality, representing the gain you get from doing missions for him. Just make an agent like an asteroid. Do a mission, quality of the agent drops, every x hours the quality of the agent goes up a bit. This is so bloody simple and will make sure agent missions are spread out all over the galaxy. Any popular agent will very quickly drop to -20 quality while out of the way places will have top quality agents. This simply change will automatically spread the load over a large amount of systems. Maybe not a full spread but at least good enough not to strain a single system anymore. Jita is too much of a market place? Start by having market slots. A sell order moves the goods to the hanger of the station, that hanger can store max 10million m3. Enough sell orders and the market won't accept new ones. This will not only force redistribution but also add some none violent pvp to the game.
Decairn Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.04.08 12:48:00 - [79] Remove agent quality, make LP and the level usable by a player based on standings and the system security level the mission is given from. Suddenly there is no reason to swamp a single system. Provide more cross-corporation missions within a race faction. Give people a reason to not concentrate on a single corporation type. --Decairn
ErazorHead FrenchWing's War Academy	Posted - 2007.04.08 13:45:00 - [80] Edited by: ErazorHead on 08/04/2007 13:45:14 Originally by: Ralara Originally by: CCP Sharkbait stuff. ...lots of stuff... You know it. I know it. Everyone on the forums knows it. The players know it. Why not just change it? Who's going to complain?? There is no downside. Lag goes down, population spreads out, missionrunners use other corps... what is the downside?? I agree that would help. Sharkbait, does CCP heard about Bigworld Technology ? Maybe you guys should take a look at this company and their technical solutions concerning nods overloads. To give a comprehensive image of this technology, imagine the game is like a giant spider web where players are spread into cells, cells beings servers. When there is too many players in one cell, the system detect it and dynamically rescale the spider web over the area where there is an overload, spreading the charge over multiple cells. As they claim, its totally transparent for the players they don't even notice they are instantly taken in charge by a different server. And yes it's Python (language in which EvE is coded) compatible. If it works as well as it seem to be, this is the ultimate solution for missions hubs, markets hubs and fleet battles. (edit:) well at least the lag wouldnt be server sided. I would be glad if you could take a look at it. (and no I don't have stock options in this company, Im just trying to help. hell I even encourage you to copy the technology with your own tools ! lol)

Rab	Posted - 2007.04.08 14:42:00 - [81] If CCP really have to admit their system can not cope with more than x people at one time using agents in the same region, system or node (50, 200, or 500, whatever it is) Then they have 2 choices: 1. Distribute numbers based on actual usage so that if theres 5000 people wanting to use the agent types in that node then you stick 5000/x agents available across different regions, nodes or systems of equivalent quality. Adjustment every 3-6 months according to actual data maybe? If caldari really do get 50% of the mission runners then give them 50% of the agents. They arent going to swap to minmatar, evidently. 2. Try and bully those or all mission runners into doing something else other than missions (for myriad reasons ranging from 'isk faucet' to 'they are anti-social' to 'its not how the game was intended', or any other spurious reason not to like them, choose whatever reason for getting in someone elses game here*) Most the low sec options involve the latter, Force risk, force pvp, force force force those carebears to change. If the problem is that 0.0 is enormously empty and empire is full, smart money says you should get your sec status paintbrush out and repaint a few of those red dots useful colours. If however, CCP want to state categorically that mission running is not what they intended from their game and its ruining their vision of pvp space utopia, then please just say it, and let the swarms of people that enjoy missions only to find another game and enjoy your smaller profit but artistically more ideal universe. Or you can find a happy medium whereby you can accept that the subscriptions from mission runners actually pay for other benefits like more staff and more servers and that mission runners pay for their space as much as anyone else. If someone chooses to spend that subscription mission running then they have as much right to mission space as a pvper has to pvp space. (albeit fleet battles are the same problem in reverse, to perhaps a more extreme level as 5000v5000 fleets will be here sometime the moment servers allow 4000v4000 battles.) Accommodate mission runners properly or tell them to walk the walk. cramming them into 25% of space and squeezing isn't working. - In an infinite universe, everything is definite. -
DeadRow Magnificent Beavers Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.04.08 15:43:00 - [82] Originally by: Pardack The problem this doesn't solve is that LPs currently are still tied to a specific agent. So once you start running missions for one, you're tied to that agent if you want to spend your LPs. They have stated they are gonna move the LP to store based, corporation wide system. Which would sit nicely with the idea in my post tbh. /DeadRow snip - signature removed, please email us with a link if you wish to know why. -Ivan K
Rhaegor Stormborn	Posted - 2007.04.08 15:56:00 - [83] Agent hubs need to be removed. Spread agents around evenly through Empire space with the highest quality agents being in low sec.
isAzmodeus	Posted - 2007.04.08 18:05:00 - [84] Move high-sec missions to instanced deadspace. Instead of warpgates, have mini-jumpgates that lead to the area. This area wouldn't be on local, etc... This could move missions to another node. There isn't much of a reason for high-sec missions to be probed out, anyway. Having all the combat on different nodes would help with lag immensely. Keep low-sec missions in-system. They should be able to be probed out. Originally by: CCP Sharkbait we are screwed. quote]


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