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GC13
Caldari
Derelik Trading Company
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Posted - 2007.04.07 19:53:00 -
[1]
Edited by: GC13 on 07/04/2007 19:53:25
The general complaint about the Nidhoggur is the lack of usefulness of its current bonus, a 5% reduction in remote capital shield/armor repairer duration per level. There are other complaints about the ship in general as well, but I will start this thread with an overview of complaints (in order of relative importance) about the Nidhoggur's unique bonus:
- The duration bonus drains too much capacitor - This is a very fair complaint. While at Minmatar Carrier level four the bonus leaves you repairing 25% more shields/armor per second, you're also draining 25% more capacitor. With the rate at which capital repairers drain capacitor, you cannot sustain enough repairers to make this bonus worthwhile.
- The support bonus is not useful in combat - The driving force behind this complaint is the size of an engagement you will be looking at when carriers are involved. With a large amount of enemy battleships on both sides, it will take too long to target allied battleships to repair them due to the Nidhoggur's low scan resolution. In capital fights, it will be unable to repair allied capitals because the Nidhoggur itself would then come under fire, and its bonus would be nullified.
- It does not fit with the other carrier bonuses - People point out that the other carriers receive either a damage bonus (Thanatos) or a tanking bonus (Archon, Chimera). This leaves the Nidhoggur as the odd ship out in terms of bonuses.
Other complaints about the ship abound (again, in order of relative importance):
- The ship's fitting stats are poor - Central here is the fact that while the Thanatos has a slot layout geared towards armor tanking, it still has 25 more CPU than the Nidhoggur, which is focused towards shield tanking, in addition to 125,000 more power grid. All in all there is not much discussion of this problem, but common sense would dictate that a ship with a slot layout geared towards shield tanking should have more CPU than a ship geared towards armor tanking.
- The ship's capacitor is the lowest of the other carriers - This is a major point of contention, it seems. Arguments in favor of the capacitor remaining low cite the fact that Minmatar ships usually do tend to have the lowest capacitor, and the counter-argument to this is that Minmatar ships do not use capacitor to fire their weapons while the other races do, and that this ceases to be an issue with carriers who do not fire guns. Others say it is a non-issue because they have the same recharge rate as the other carriers, the counter-argument here being that this still hurts the Nidhoggur because it runs out of capacitor the fastest.
- The ship's slot layout hurts it - The biggest non-bonus fix suggested for the Nidhoggur is to change its slot layout to 5/5/6 like the Thanatos. This seems very popular and there aren't many arguments against it (nor are there many arguments in favor of it, as most of the posts are simply requests).
EDIT: Adjusted spacing.
--
Science and Industry guide plus A Newbie's Guide to Caldari Ships
Eve and RPG blog |
GC13
Caldari
Derelik Trading Company
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Posted - 2007.04.07 19:55:00 -
[2]
Now, back to the bonus itself. There seemed to be a few general categories of bonuses preferred. In order of preference, they were:
- A personal tanking bonus - A suggested 5% reduction in capital shield booster capacitor use bonus was the most popular one here, but it should be pointed out that a 7.5% boost amount bonus would be more fitting with the Minmatar line of bonuses (as well as be a better bonus in terms of shields/capacitor).
- Improving the support bonus - Far and away the most popular suggestion here was changing the bonus to a 7.5% amount remotely repaired/boosted bonus. Other suggestions included reducing the capacitor used by the remote repairers, sometimes in addition to the existing duration bonus. One suggestion also included improving the Nidhoggur's range bonus from 50%/level to 75%/level.
- Improving the fighters somehow - The most popular bonus here was a 5% bonus to fighter tracking per level. While many considered this too overpowered because of its effect in their ability to hit smaller targets, others thought it fit the Minmatar hit-and-run doctrine well. Others liked a bonus to fighter speed, but there was a concern for fighter tracking if their orbit speed was increased. One idea involved a possibility of decreasing the signature radius on fighters.
- Increasing jump range - The idea of increasing the Nidhoggur's jump range by 5%/level was endorsed by many, but like the tracking bonus there were many naysayers (though this time the naysayers were arguing that such a bonus would UNDER-power the Nidhoggur). The primary argument was that such a bonus would be useless in a gang as the other capitals would limit the jump range of the group. One person sarcastically indicated that such a bonus would at least help use carriers for transporting goods from empire.
All in all the idea of an aggressive bonus was turned down in favor of either a personal tanking bonus or a large improvement to the remote shield and armor repairers, with the 7.5% bonus to remote boost amount being the single most favored bonus, with a 5% capital shield booster capacitor reduction and a 5% fighter tracking bonus being two more well-favored bonuses (a 5% jump range bonus and 5-10% fighter speed bonus being two more popular ideas).
If I may personally editorialize, I would like to point out the obvious: The Archon and Chimera both have slot layouts decisively preferring a method of tanking, and a bonus to that style of tanking. The Thanatos has a more ambiguous layout, and a damage bonus for its fighters. The Nidhoggur has the same ambiguous layout, so one could easily imagine that an aggressive bonus would be the way to go. The tracking bonus I think would fit nicely, as it would improve the damage of the fighters against the smaller targets, but I have no pretty graphs or charts to show whether it would be overpowered or not. Still, though it would break the paradigm the carriers fit into, the bonus to remote boosting would allow the Nidhoggur to play an effective support role so long as it was able to avoid being called primary (or had a second Nidhoggur to remotely repair it).
--
Science and Industry guide plus A Newbie's Guide to Caldari Ships
Eve and RPG blog |
Ralara
Caldari
Lilandri Foundation
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Posted - 2007.04.07 19:57:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: GC13
It does not fit with the other carrier bonuses - People point out that the other carriers receive either a damage bonus (Thanatos) or a tanking bonus (Archon, Chimera). This leaves the Nidhoggur as the odd ship out in terms of bonuses.
Does it also not make the Thanatos the "odd ship out"?
There's 2 carriers with identical bonuses. and 2 carriers with completely different bonuses.
The Nid is no more "odd ship out" than the Thanatos, in that respect.
I'm a corp thief. And remember, I only do it because I like your robot. |
Nobum
Amarr
dabster Corp
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Posted - 2007.04.07 20:44:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Nobum on 07/04/2007 20:40:55
Originally by: Ralara
Originally by: GC13
It does not fit with the other carrier bonuses - People point out that the other carriers receive either a damage bonus (Thanatos) or a tanking bonus (Archon, Chimera). This leaves the Nidhoggur as the odd ship out in terms of bonuses.
Does it also not make the Thanatos the "odd ship out"?
There's 2 carriers with identical bonuses. and 2 carriers with completely different bonuses.
The Nid is no more "odd ship out" than the Thanatos, in that respect.
Difference being that Thanatos becomes more effective with its bonus.
Chimera and Archon gets increased survivability.
Thanatos gets increased firepower.
Nidhoggur gets to drain its own cap faster.
Yea I'd call Niddy the odd ship out.
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hangnoose
Caldari
DAB
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.07 23:30:00 -
[5]
pffttt 0bv you dont know how to use one.
Stick some over drives and nano's on it and you will be ramming **** in no time!
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Victor Ivanov
Minmatar
Liberty Rogues
Coalition of Carebear Killers
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Posted - 2007.04.08 00:12:00 -
[6]
You, sir, are a god amongst men.
Brilliant post. Hope the devs can do something with this.
My personal prefference? Increased Jump range. Sure, in a gang it's crap, but once you have a couple of nid's, the power potential rises exponentially. Sneak attack, guerrila warfare for the win? And it also fits to the roleplaying aspect, seeing as how our strength comes from our unity, as a race, and it would make for an interesting concept within capital ship battles where it would actually pay to train specifically for the nidhoggur because of the bonus.
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prathe
Minmatar
Omega Enterprises
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.04.08 07:06:00 -
[7]
Excellent thread tbh
nidhoggur needs a boost
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Elad Dranoel
Dark-Rising
Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.04.08 07:34:00 -
[8]
There are Gankers, Tankers and Support ships. Know your place and stfu.
...
*snip* Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intentions |
Lonectzn
Pelennor Swarm
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.04.08 07:41:00 -
[9]
Excellent summary of the main ideas being argued over.
My personal preference was a tracking or speed bonus, fitting the four carriers neatly into 'tankers' and 'gankers'.
As a support bonus 7.5%/level to remote amount is clearly the preferred option. I would be quite happy with this bonus, despite not having the edge in pitched combat. That said I don't want to see the Nidhoggur as the Osprey of carriers, left just to recharge pos shields.
The layout problems are significant, especially in that fitting the (preferred) shield tank can leave you unable to fill out all your highs, and fall significantly below other carriers in cap recharge.
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Sig mod-whacked
=/ Have had that signature for well over two years. 26,736 bytes. R.I.P Garfield.
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Valandril
Caldari
Resurrection
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.04.08 07:58:00 -
[10]
Problem with cpu is not in flying roof cpu but in capital shield booster cpu use, its definitly too big (300 ? cmon ccp...) and pg doesn't matter on carrier.
Telling that repair bonus is weak/crap/whatever else and that Quote:
# In capital fights, it will be unable to repair allied capitals because the Nidhoggur itself would then come under fire, and its bonus would be nullified.
is a joke i think.
Yes it lower cycle of remote repairs but complaining about it becuase it use more cap is just wrong. When u get bad with cap = turn it off.
Simple, no one will force u to turn it on...
Next lets see, "it don't fit with other carriers bonuses" um..
So thanatos don't fit with other carriers too.
And layout, ccp just need to reduce csb a bit and problem solved.
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Mass murderer, pure pvper and starcraft player =D |
Elliesium Al'kar
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Posted - 2007.04.08 08:49:00 -
[11]
And the winner of this years Best Format for a Post Award goes to....GC13.
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Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.08 09:25:00 -
[12]
Just switching to a remote repair amount would probably be the path of least resistance. Not that I'd endorse it, because it would mean no sweeping improvements to it for a while - but better than the current bonus ;)
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zwerg
mUfFiN fAcToRy
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Posted - 2007.04.08 10:31:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Elad Dranoel
There are Gankers, Tankers and Support ships. Know your place and stfu.
There are people who have an opinion and show it, there are people who like listening to others, and there are people like you, always complaining because something went wrong with their life.
To OP:
Nice thread! The Niddi needs a boost rly, and nice work with summing all this up.
QFT
... they call me "the lil one" :(
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Chode Rizoum
Minmatar
Temptation inc.
Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2007.04.08 11:25:00 -
[14]
Originally by: prathe
Excellent thread tbh
nidhoggur needs a boost
TEMPTATION INC. Killboard |
The Doct0r
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.04.08 11:57:00 -
[15]
nice thread 
But what about giving all Carriers that bit extra..
Only one of the Following per ship
99% reduction in CPU need for Clone Vat Bay
99% reduction in CPU need for Capital Jump Bridge Array
100% bonus to Ship Maintenance Storage space (but max ship type cruiser.. No BS's!!)
50% Bonus to Maximum Jump Drive Distance
Apply one of these to each Carrier (along with their current bonuses). This will hopefully put them more into the front line of combat and allow for more tactical battles.
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Always ready to perform!!!! *cough*
_______________________________________
Always back up comments with hard facts |
Imhotep Khem
Shinra
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.04.08 12:25:00 -
[16]
In total agreement.
_________
If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
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Elad Dranoel
Dark-Rising
Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.04.08 12:31:00 -
[17]
Originally by: zwerg
Originally by: Elad Dranoel
There are Gankers, Tankers and Support ships. Know your place and stfu.
There are people who have an opinion and show it, there are people who like listening to others, and there are people like you, always complaining because something went wrong with their life.
The only people complaining here would be the people who trained up for a Support ship and now wish they would have trained something else. Know your place and stfu crybabies.
...
*snip* Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intentions |
Taurevanime
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Posted - 2007.04.08 13:15:00 -
[18]
An excellent post and summary of the discussion that went on in that thread GC13. You've put it in a format that would make it easier for the devs to read.
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0
1 Shot 1 Kill
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Posted - 2007.04.08 13:44:00 -
[19]
As said, good summary. Forum needs more of this posts. Now let the devs take a look, contemplate a move, and implement it somewhere august 2008 ^^
Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly
Radio is essential for Amarr, to call the much needed backup...
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Neji Boro
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Posted - 2007.04.08 14:40:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Elad Dranoel
Originally by: zwerg
Originally by: Elad Dranoel
There are Gankers, Tankers and Support ships. Know your place and stfu.
There are people who have an opinion and show it, there are people who like listening to others, and there are people like you, always complaining because something went wrong with their life.
The only people complaining here would be the people who trained up for a Support ship and now wish they would have trained something else. Know your place and stfu crybabies.
Actually, all carriers are meant to be support ships, if you really want to get into it. The problem with the Nidhoggur is that it's a heap of junk. Imagine if you took a Raven, and replaced its missile bonuses with 5%/level bonuses to logistics drones. It's got a bonus, sure, but it A) is practically negligible, and B) does nothing to make the ship viable in any role, because it's extremely restricted in its use of the bonus.
To paraphrase: A Raven with logistics drone bonuses could probably heal some people, just as the Nidhoggur can heal some people, but with a very small drone bay(like the small capacitor of the Nidhoggur), it wouldn't be able to do much, and the ship would be easily killed as it doesn't have a bonus to tanking enemy fire or ganking the enemies. That's the Nidhoggur's issue; it has a poor bonus considering its attributes, and isn't even boosted by having stats better than any of the other carriers, and is the worst in pretty much every way.
And no, I haven't trained for a Nidhoggur, it's just plain @#$%ing obvious.
<3 CCP when they finally get it balanced, though. :D
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Victor Ivanov
Minmatar
Liberty Rogues
Coalition of Carebear Killers
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Posted - 2007.04.08 15:13:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Neji Boro
Originally by: Elad Dranoel
Originally by: zwerg
Originally by: Elad Dranoel
There are Gankers, Tankers and Support ships. Know your place and stfu.
There are people who have an opinion and show it, there are people who like listening to others, and there are people like you, always complaining because something went wrong with their life.
The only people complaining here would be the people who trained up for a Support ship and now wish they would have trained something else. Know your place and stfu crybabies.
Actually, all carriers are meant to be support ships, if you really want to get into it. The problem with the Nidhoggur is that it's a heap of junk. Imagine if you took a Raven, and replaced its missile bonuses with 5%/level bonuses to logistics drones. It's got a bonus, sure, but it A) is practically negligible, and B) does nothing to make the ship viable in any role, because it's extremely restricted in its use of the bonus.
To paraphrase: A Raven with logistics drone bonuses could probably heal some people, just as the Nidhoggur can heal some people, but with a very small drone bay(like the small capacitor of the Nidhoggur), it wouldn't be able to do much, and the ship would be easily killed as it doesn't have a bonus to tanking enemy fire or ganking the enemies. That's the Nidhoggur's issue; it has a poor bonus considering its attributes, and isn't even boosted by having stats better than any of the other carriers, and is the worst in pretty much every way.
And no, I haven't trained for a Nidhoggur, it's just plain @#$%ing obvious.
<3 CCP when they finally get it balanced, though. :D
Quoted simply as reiteration of what the Nidhoggur's problem is in the end.
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Audri Fisher
Caldari
VentureCorp
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.04.08 16:55:00 -
[22]
Very well thought out and respectful post.
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Audri Fisher
Caldari
VentureCorp
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.04.08 16:55:00 -
[23]
Very well thought out and respectful post.
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Victor Mason
Minmatar
Bleak Cabal
Coalition of Carebear Killers
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Posted - 2007.04.08 17:01:00 -
[24]
One of the other problems is that the Nid/Hel require you to fit a Remote Rep to use the bonus while the other carrier don't need to fit anything to get there bonus working for them... I can't say I know the answer, If logistics is the key for this carrier what about extra space in the hanger bays or jump range increase??
Victor Mason
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Victor Mason
Minmatar
Bleak Cabal
Coalition of Carebear Killers
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Posted - 2007.04.08 17:01:00 -
[25]
One of the other problems is that the Nid/Hel require you to fit a Remote Rep to use the bonus while the other carrier don't need to fit anything to get there bonus working for them... I can't say I know the answer, If logistics is the key for this carrier what about extra space in the hanger bays or jump range increase??
Victor Mason
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Waxau
Liberty Rogues
Coalition of Carebear Killers
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Posted - 2007.04.08 17:15:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Victor Mason
One of the other problems is that the Nid/Hel require you to fit a Remote Rep to use the bonus while the other carrier don't need to fit anything to get there bonus working for them... I can't say I know the answer, If logistics is the key for this carrier what about extra space in the hanger bays or jump range increase??
Victor Mason
*Waxau tickles Victor and Victor. Muhahaha
But no - boost the nid! Its the worst carrier right now, and well....yeah.
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Elad Dranoel
Dark-Rising
Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.04.08 17:23:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Victor Mason
One of the other problems is that the Nid/Hel require you to fit a Remote Rep to use the bonus while the other carrier don't need to fit anything to get there bonus working for them... I can't say I know the answer, If logistics is the key for this carrier what about extra space in the hanger bays or jump range increase??
Victor Mason
That's because it's a support ship. Osprey's require you to fit remote reps aswell to use the bonus too geniouis, the reps just don't magically appear out of nowhere...
A Thanatos requires you to fit fighters to get the bonus for fighters... not drones.
Does an osprey give a bonus to cargo hold size?
A 25% reduction in remote repping on a Capital mod can make a world of difference in saving a friendly carrier needing an extra rep.
Honestly, read the F-in ship description before hopping inside the ship and realizing you chose the wrong skill tree...
If you don't want to be a support b^tch then don't fly one and stfu already.
Next you'll be comlaining because the Nagflar does more dmg but doesn't tank as well as the other dreadnaughts...
...
*snip* Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intentions |
dalman
Finite Horizon
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Posted - 2007.04.08 17:29:00 -
[28]
The subject of the Nidhoggur is a hard one IMO.
I feel that sensor dampeners are really holding back remote repping.
And 2:nd, the rep duration bonus really isn't any good (except for saving friendly battleships perhaps).
On the other hand, the subject of remote repping capital gangs really scare me. And the Nidhoggur's slot layout is really good for either of armor or shield remote gangs.
(armor: fit 5 slots with hardeners, 4 meds for cap recharge, 2 meds for sensor boosters/scrambler/web, or something like that)
(shield: 4 medslots + damage control for shield hardeners, 4 lows for cap relays, and again 2 meds for whatever, or something like that)
Imagine a gang of 10 carriers, each with 80%+ medium resistance, and 20+ capital remote reppers going. Trying to kill that is really a tough thing to do.
Am I forced to have any regret?
I've become the lie, beautiful and free
In my righteous own mind
I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
goodby4u
Logistic Technologies Incorporated
Free Trade Coalition
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Posted - 2007.04.08 18:33:00 -
[29]
Easy fix:change duration to amount therefore still get 25% more boost at the same cap.
Medium:give it a jumping range bonus.
Nerf madness:take the thanatos and give it a rep amount bonus like the myrm,take the nid and give it a boost amount bonus like the maelstrom.
__________________________________________
Yes it is great being amarr.
I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space. |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.04.08 18:44:00 -
[30]
Originally by: GC13
- A personal tanking bonus - A suggested 5% reduction in capital shield booster capacitor use bonus was the most popular one here, but it should be pointed out that a 7.5% boost amount bonus would be more fitting with the Minmatar line of bonuses (as well as be a better bonus in terms of shields/capacitor).
- Improving the support bonus - Far and away the most popular suggestion here was changing the bonus to a 7.5% amount remotely repaired/boosted bonus. Other suggestions included reducing the capacitor used by the remote repairers, sometimes in addition to the existing duration bonus. One suggestion also included improving the Nidhoggur's range bonus from 50%/level to 75%/level.
When evaulating the personal tanking bonus and support bonus you have to evaluatee what each bonus ends up doing. When you do this, it is clear that a 5% support bonus is clearly underpowered.
Take the Aeon for instance.
An Aeon has a 25% resistance bonus. This equates to a 33% hit point bonus, and a 33% repair boost bonus. This repair boost bonus works on all modules of any type repairing it.
So if you have two Aeons repairing each other compared to two Hels repairing each other...
Aeons recieves rep x 1.33 from his reps, and rep x 1.33 from second Aeons remote rep. Second Aeon uses "remote rep cap cost x 1" to power his reps.
for the Hels, one recieces rep x 1 from his reps and rep x 1.33 from the second Hells remote reps. The Second Hel uses "remote rep cap cost x 1.33" to power his rep.
So the Aeon, by virtue of its resist bonus recieves the same boost that the Hel gives, except that the ships repping the Aeon doesnt have to expend the extra juice.
Since we have a bonus for the Hel which is dependant on it boosting other ships, that bonus has to be stronger than the bonus confered to a single other ship in order to be worthwhile, otherwise everyone just builds the other ships.
A 7.5% boost bonus will only be marginally better than the resist bonus in this way. Though this is comparable for strict tanking[since its stronger faster and creates a higher total DPS tanked number] this isnt very comparable for a support/spider tank.
The bonus, if not a personal tanking bonus, should be 10% per level of remote repair/boost strength. Or 7.5% cap use per level[about the same, a bit larger as a 50% strength boost, but requiring more reps to run] for remote repair/boost cap use. 7.5% boost or 5% cap use just wouldnt cut it.
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Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
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