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GC13 Caldari Derelik Trading Company	Posted - 2007.04.07 19:53:00 - [1] Edited by: GC13 on 07/04/2007 19:53:25 The general complaint about the Nidhoggur is the lack of usefulness of its current bonus, a 5% reduction in remote capital shield/armor repairer duration per level. There are other complaints about the ship in general as well, but I will start this thread with an overview of complaints (in order of relative importance) about the Nidhoggur's unique bonus: The duration bonus drains too much capacitor - This is a very fair complaint. While at Minmatar Carrier level four the bonus leaves you repairing 25% more shields/armor per second, you're also draining 25% more capacitor. With the rate at which capital repairers drain capacitor, you cannot sustain enough repairers to make this bonus worthwhile. The support bonus is not useful in combat - The driving force behind this complaint is the size of an engagement you will be looking at when carriers are involved. With a large amount of enemy battleships on both sides, it will take too long to target allied battleships to repair them due to the Nidhoggur's low scan resolution. In capital fights, it will be unable to repair allied capitals because the Nidhoggur itself would then come under fire, and its bonus would be nullified. It does not fit with the other carrier bonuses - People point out that the other carriers receive either a damage bonus (Thanatos) or a tanking bonus (Archon, Chimera). This leaves the Nidhoggur as the odd ship out in terms of bonuses. Other complaints about the ship abound (again, in order of relative importance): The ship's fitting stats are poor - Central here is the fact that while the Thanatos has a slot layout geared towards armor tanking, it still has 25 more CPU than the Nidhoggur, which is focused towards shield tanking, in addition to 125,000 more power grid. All in all there is not much discussion of this problem, but common sense would dictate that a ship with a slot layout geared towards shield tanking should have more CPU than a ship geared towards armor tanking. The ship's capacitor is the lowest of the other carriers - This is a major point of contention, it seems. Arguments in favor of the capacitor remaining low cite the fact that Minmatar ships usually do tend to have the lowest capacitor, and the counter-argument to this is that Minmatar ships do not use capacitor to fire their weapons while the other races do, and that this ceases to be an issue with carriers who do not fire guns. Others say it is a non-issue because they have the same recharge rate as the other carriers, the counter-argument here being that this still hurts the Nidhoggur because it runs out of capacitor the fastest. The ship's slot layout hurts it - The biggest non-bonus fix suggested for the Nidhoggur is to change its slot layout to 5/5/6 like the Thanatos. This seems very popular and there aren't many arguments against it (nor are there many arguments in favor of it, as most of the posts are simply requests). EDIT: Adjusted spacing. -- Science and Industry guide plus A Newbie's Guide to Caldari Ships Eve and RPG blog
GC13 Caldari Derelik Trading Company	Posted - 2007.04.07 19:55:00 - [2] Now, back to the bonus itself. There seemed to be a few general categories of bonuses preferred. In order of preference, they were: A personal tanking bonus - A suggested 5% reduction in capital shield booster capacitor use bonus was the most popular one here, but it should be pointed out that a 7.5% boost amount bonus would be more fitting with the Minmatar line of bonuses (as well as be a better bonus in terms of shields/capacitor). Improving the support bonus - Far and away the most popular suggestion here was changing the bonus to a 7.5% amount remotely repaired/boosted bonus. Other suggestions included reducing the capacitor used by the remote repairers, sometimes in addition to the existing duration bonus. One suggestion also included improving the Nidhoggur's range bonus from 50%/level to 75%/level. Improving the fighters somehow - The most popular bonus here was a 5% bonus to fighter tracking per level. While many considered this too overpowered because of its effect in their ability to hit smaller targets, others thought it fit the Minmatar hit-and-run doctrine well. Others liked a bonus to fighter speed, but there was a concern for fighter tracking if their orbit speed was increased. One idea involved a possibility of decreasing the signature radius on fighters. Increasing jump range - The idea of increasing the Nidhoggur's jump range by 5%/level was endorsed by many, but like the tracking bonus there were many naysayers (though this time the naysayers were arguing that such a bonus would UNDER-power the Nidhoggur). The primary argument was that such a bonus would be useless in a gang as the other capitals would limit the jump range of the group. One person sarcastically indicated that such a bonus would at least help use carriers for transporting goods from empire. All in all the idea of an aggressive bonus was turned down in favor of either a personal tanking bonus or a large improvement to the remote shield and armor repairers, with the 7.5% bonus to remote boost amount being the single most favored bonus, with a 5% capital shield booster capacitor reduction and a 5% fighter tracking bonus being two more well-favored bonuses (a 5% jump range bonus and 5-10% fighter speed bonus being two more popular ideas). If I may personally editorialize, I would like to point out the obvious: The Archon and Chimera both have slot layouts decisively preferring a method of tanking, and a bonus to that style of tanking. The Thanatos has a more ambiguous layout, and a damage bonus for its fighters. The Nidhoggur has the same ambiguous layout, so one could easily imagine that an aggressive bonus would be the way to go. The tracking bonus I think would fit nicely, as it would improve the damage of the fighters against the smaller targets, but I have no pretty graphs or charts to show whether it would be overpowered or not. Still, though it would break the paradigm the carriers fit into, the bonus to remote boosting would allow the Nidhoggur to play an effective support role so long as it was able to avoid being called primary (or had a second Nidhoggur to remotely repair it). -- Science and Industry guide plus A Newbie's Guide to Caldari Ships Eve and RPG blog
Ralara Caldari Lilandri Foundation	Posted - 2007.04.07 19:57:00 - [3] Originally by: GC13 It does not fit with the other carrier bonuses - People point out that the other carriers receive either a damage bonus (Thanatos) or a tanking bonus (Archon, Chimera). This leaves the Nidhoggur as the odd ship out in terms of bonuses. Does it also not make the Thanatos the "odd ship out"? There's 2 carriers with identical bonuses. and 2 carriers with completely different bonuses. The Nid is no more "odd ship out" than the Thanatos, in that respect. I'm a corp thief. And remember, I only do it because I like your robot.
Nobum Amarr dabster Corp	Posted - 2007.04.07 20:44:00 - [4] Edited by: Nobum on 07/04/2007 20:40:55 Originally by: Ralara Originally by: GC13 It does not fit with the other carrier bonuses - People point out that the other carriers receive either a damage bonus (Thanatos) or a tanking bonus (Archon, Chimera). This leaves the Nidhoggur as the odd ship out in terms of bonuses. Does it also not make the Thanatos the "odd ship out"? There's 2 carriers with identical bonuses. and 2 carriers with completely different bonuses. The Nid is no more "odd ship out" than the Thanatos, in that respect. Difference being that Thanatos becomes more effective with its bonus. Chimera and Archon gets increased survivability. Thanatos gets increased firepower. Nidhoggur gets to drain its own cap faster. Yea I'd call Niddy the odd ship out.
hangnoose Caldari DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.07 23:30:00 - [5] pffttt 0bv you dont know how to use one. Stick some over drives and nano's on it and you will be ramming **** in no time!
Victor Ivanov Minmatar Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.08 00:12:00 - [6] You, sir, are a god amongst men. Brilliant post. Hope the devs can do something with this. My personal prefference? Increased Jump range. Sure, in a gang it's crap, but once you have a couple of nid's, the power potential rises exponentially. Sneak attack, guerrila warfare for the win? And it also fits to the roleplaying aspect, seeing as how our strength comes from our unity, as a race, and it would make for an interesting concept within capital ship battles where it would actually pay to train specifically for the nidhoggur because of the bonus. ----------------------
prathe Minmatar Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.04.08 07:06:00 - [7] Excellent thread tbh nidhoggur needs a boost
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.04.08 07:34:00 - [8] There are Gankers, Tankers and Support ships. Know your place and stfu. ... snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intentions
Lonectzn Pelennor Swarm R i s e	Posted - 2007.04.08 07:41:00 - [9] Excellent summary of the main ideas being argued over. My personal preference was a tracking or speed bonus, fitting the four carriers neatly into 'tankers' and 'gankers'. As a support bonus 7.5%/level to remote amount is clearly the preferred option. I would be quite happy with this bonus, despite not having the edge in pitched combat. That said I don't want to see the Nidhoggur as the Osprey of carriers, left just to recharge pos shields. The layout problems are significant, especially in that fitting the (preferred) shield tank can leave you unable to fill out all your highs, and fall significantly below other carriers in cap recharge. ----------------- Sig mod-whacked =/ Have had that signature for well over two years. 26,736 bytes. R.I.P Garfield.
Valandril Caldari Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.04.08 07:58:00 - [10] Problem with cpu is not in flying roof cpu but in capital shield booster cpu use, its definitly too big (300 ? cmon ccp...) and pg doesn't matter on carrier. Telling that repair bonus is weak/crap/whatever else and that Quote: # In capital fights, it will be unable to repair allied capitals because the Nidhoggur itself would then come under fire, and its bonus would be nullified. is a joke i think. Yes it lower cycle of remote repairs but complaining about it becuase it use more cap is just wrong. When u get bad with cap = turn it off. Simple, no one will force u to turn it on... Next lets see, "it don't fit with other carriers bonuses" um.. So thanatos don't fit with other carriers too. And layout, ccp just need to reduce csb a bit and problem solved. -------- Mass murderer, pure pvper and starcraft player =D
Elliesium Al'kar	Posted - 2007.04.08 08:49:00 - [11] And the winner of this years Best Format for a Post Award goes to....GC13.
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.08 09:25:00 - [12] Just switching to a remote repair amount would probably be the path of least resistance. Not that I'd endorse it, because it would mean no sweeping improvements to it for a while - but better than the current bonus ;)
zwerg mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.04.08 10:31:00 - [13] Originally by: Elad Dranoel There are Gankers, Tankers and Support ships. Know your place and stfu. There are people who have an opinion and show it, there are people who like listening to others, and there are people like you, always complaining because something went wrong with their life. To OP: Nice thread! The Niddi needs a boost rly, and nice work with summing all this up. QFT ... they call me "the lil one" :(
Chode Rizoum Minmatar Temptation inc. Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2007.04.08 11:25:00 - [14] Originally by: prathe Excellent thread tbh nidhoggur needs a boost TEMPTATION INC. Killboard
The Doct0r Minmatar	Posted - 2007.04.08 11:57:00 - [15] nice thread But what about giving all Carriers that bit extra.. Only one of the Following per ship 99% reduction in CPU need for Clone Vat Bay 99% reduction in CPU need for Capital Jump Bridge Array 100% bonus to Ship Maintenance Storage space (but max ship type cruiser.. No BS's!!) 50% Bonus to Maximum Jump Drive Distance Apply one of these to each Carrier (along with their current bonuses). This will hopefully put them more into the front line of combat and allow for more tactical battles. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Always ready to perform!!!! cough _______________________________________ Always back up comments with hard facts
Imhotep Khem Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.04.08 12:25:00 - [16] In total agreement. _________ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.04.08 12:31:00 - [17] Originally by: zwerg Originally by: Elad Dranoel There are Gankers, Tankers and Support ships. Know your place and stfu. There are people who have an opinion and show it, there are people who like listening to others, and there are people like you, always complaining because something went wrong with their life. The only people complaining here would be the people who trained up for a Support ship and now wish they would have trained something else. Know your place and stfu crybabies. ... snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intentions
Taurevanime	Posted - 2007.04.08 13:15:00 - [18] An excellent post and summary of the discussion that went on in that thread GC13. You've put it in a format that would make it easier for the devs to read.
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.04.08 13:44:00 - [19] As said, good summary. Forum needs more of this posts. Now let the devs take a look, contemplate a move, and implement it somewhere august 2008 ^^ Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly Radio is essential for Amarr, to call the much needed backup...
Neji Boro	Posted - 2007.04.08 14:40:00 - [20] Originally by: Elad Dranoel Originally by: zwerg Originally by: Elad Dranoel There are Gankers, Tankers and Support ships. Know your place and stfu. There are people who have an opinion and show it, there are people who like listening to others, and there are people like you, always complaining because something went wrong with their life. The only people complaining here would be the people who trained up for a Support ship and now wish they would have trained something else. Know your place and stfu crybabies. Actually, all carriers are meant to be support ships, if you really want to get into it. The problem with the Nidhoggur is that it's a heap of junk. Imagine if you took a Raven, and replaced its missile bonuses with 5%/level bonuses to logistics drones. It's got a bonus, sure, but it A) is practically negligible, and B) does nothing to make the ship viable in any role, because it's extremely restricted in its use of the bonus. To paraphrase: A Raven with logistics drone bonuses could probably heal some people, just as the Nidhoggur can heal some people, but with a very small drone bay(like the small capacitor of the Nidhoggur), it wouldn't be able to do much, and the ship would be easily killed as it doesn't have a bonus to tanking enemy fire or ganking the enemies. That's the Nidhoggur's issue; it has a poor bonus considering its attributes, and isn't even boosted by having stats better than any of the other carriers, and is the worst in pretty much every way. And no, I haven't trained for a Nidhoggur, it's just plain @#$%ing obvious. <3 CCP when they finally get it balanced, though. :D
Victor Ivanov Minmatar Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.08 15:13:00 - [21] Originally by: Neji Boro Originally by: Elad Dranoel Originally by: zwerg Originally by: Elad Dranoel There are Gankers, Tankers and Support ships. Know your place and stfu. There are people who have an opinion and show it, there are people who like listening to others, and there are people like you, always complaining because something went wrong with their life. The only people complaining here would be the people who trained up for a Support ship and now wish they would have trained something else. Know your place and stfu crybabies. Actually, all carriers are meant to be support ships, if you really want to get into it. The problem with the Nidhoggur is that it's a heap of junk. Imagine if you took a Raven, and replaced its missile bonuses with 5%/level bonuses to logistics drones. It's got a bonus, sure, but it A) is practically negligible, and B) does nothing to make the ship viable in any role, because it's extremely restricted in its use of the bonus. To paraphrase: A Raven with logistics drone bonuses could probably heal some people, just as the Nidhoggur can heal some people, but with a very small drone bay(like the small capacitor of the Nidhoggur), it wouldn't be able to do much, and the ship would be easily killed as it doesn't have a bonus to tanking enemy fire or ganking the enemies. That's the Nidhoggur's issue; it has a poor bonus considering its attributes, and isn't even boosted by having stats better than any of the other carriers, and is the worst in pretty much every way. And no, I haven't trained for a Nidhoggur, it's just plain @#$%ing obvious. <3 CCP when they finally get it balanced, though. :D Quoted simply as reiteration of what the Nidhoggur's problem is in the end. ----------------------
Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.04.08 16:55:00 - [22] Very well thought out and respectful post.
Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.04.08 16:55:00 - [23] Very well thought out and respectful post.
Victor Mason Minmatar Bleak Cabal Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.08 17:01:00 - [24] One of the other problems is that the Nid/Hel require you to fit a Remote Rep to use the bonus while the other carrier don't need to fit anything to get there bonus working for them... I can't say I know the answer, If logistics is the key for this carrier what about extra space in the hanger bays or jump range increase?? Victor Mason
Victor Mason Minmatar Bleak Cabal Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.08 17:01:00 - [25] One of the other problems is that the Nid/Hel require you to fit a Remote Rep to use the bonus while the other carrier don't need to fit anything to get there bonus working for them... I can't say I know the answer, If logistics is the key for this carrier what about extra space in the hanger bays or jump range increase?? Victor Mason
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.08 17:15:00 - [26] Originally by: Victor Mason One of the other problems is that the Nid/Hel require you to fit a Remote Rep to use the bonus while the other carrier don't need to fit anything to get there bonus working for them... I can't say I know the answer, If logistics is the key for this carrier what about extra space in the hanger bays or jump range increase?? Victor Mason *Waxau tickles Victor and Victor. Muhahaha But no - boost the nid! Its the worst carrier right now, and well....yeah.
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.04.08 17:23:00 - [27] Originally by: Victor Mason One of the other problems is that the Nid/Hel require you to fit a Remote Rep to use the bonus while the other carrier don't need to fit anything to get there bonus working for them... I can't say I know the answer, If logistics is the key for this carrier what about extra space in the hanger bays or jump range increase?? Victor Mason That's because it's a support ship. Osprey's require you to fit remote reps aswell to use the bonus too geniouis, the reps just don't magically appear out of nowhere... A Thanatos requires you to fit fighters to get the bonus for fighters... not drones. Does an osprey give a bonus to cargo hold size? A 25% reduction in remote repping on a Capital mod can make a world of difference in saving a friendly carrier needing an extra rep. Honestly, read the F-in ship description before hopping inside the ship and realizing you chose the wrong skill tree... If you don't want to be a support b^tch then don't fly one and stfu already. Next you'll be comlaining because the Nagflar does more dmg but doesn't tank as well as the other dreadnaughts... ... snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intentions
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2007.04.08 17:29:00 - [28] The subject of the Nidhoggur is a hard one IMO. I feel that sensor dampeners are really holding back remote repping. And 2:nd, the rep duration bonus really isn't any good (except for saving friendly battleships perhaps). On the other hand, the subject of remote repping capital gangs really scare me. And the Nidhoggur's slot layout is really good for either of armor or shield remote gangs. (armor: fit 5 slots with hardeners, 4 meds for cap recharge, 2 meds for sensor boosters/scrambler/web, or something like that) (shield: 4 medslots + damage control for shield hardeners, 4 lows for cap relays, and again 2 meds for whatever, or something like that) Imagine a gang of 10 carriers, each with 80%+ medium resistance, and 20+ capital remote reppers going. Trying to kill that is really a tough thing to do. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated Free Trade Coalition	Posted - 2007.04.08 18:33:00 - [29] Easy fix:change duration to amount therefore still get 25% more boost at the same cap. Medium:give it a jumping range bonus. Nerf madness:take the thanatos and give it a rep amount bonus like the myrm,take the nid and give it a boost amount bonus like the maelstrom. __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr. I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.08 18:44:00 - [30] Originally by: GC13 A personal tanking bonus - A suggested 5% reduction in capital shield booster capacitor use bonus was the most popular one here, but it should be pointed out that a 7.5% boost amount bonus would be more fitting with the Minmatar line of bonuses (as well as be a better bonus in terms of shields/capacitor). Improving the support bonus - Far and away the most popular suggestion here was changing the bonus to a 7.5% amount remotely repaired/boosted bonus. Other suggestions included reducing the capacitor used by the remote repairers, sometimes in addition to the existing duration bonus. One suggestion also included improving the Nidhoggur's range bonus from 50%/level to 75%/level. When evaulating the personal tanking bonus and support bonus you have to evaluatee what each bonus ends up doing. When you do this, it is clear that a 5% support bonus is clearly underpowered. Take the Aeon for instance. An Aeon has a 25% resistance bonus. This equates to a 33% hit point bonus, and a 33% repair boost bonus. This repair boost bonus works on all modules of any type repairing it. So if you have two Aeons repairing each other compared to two Hels repairing each other... Aeons recieves rep x 1.33 from his reps, and rep x 1.33 from second Aeons remote rep. Second Aeon uses "remote rep cap cost x 1" to power his reps. for the Hels, one recieces rep x 1 from his reps and rep x 1.33 from the second Hells remote reps. The Second Hel uses "remote rep cap cost x 1.33" to power his rep. So the Aeon, by virtue of its resist bonus recieves the same boost that the Hel gives, except that the ships repping the Aeon doesnt have to expend the extra juice. Since we have a bonus for the Hel which is dependant on it boosting other ships, that bonus has to be stronger than the bonus confered to a single other ship in order to be worthwhile, otherwise everyone just builds the other ships. A 7.5% boost bonus will only be marginally better than the resist bonus in this way. Though this is comparable for strict tanking[since its stronger faster and creates a higher total DPS tanked number] this isnt very comparable for a support/spider tank. The bonus, if not a personal tanking bonus, should be 10% per level of remote repair/boost strength. Or 7.5% cap use per level[about the same, a bit larger as a 50% strength boost, but requiring more reps to run] for remote repair/boost cap use. 7.5% boost or 5% cap use just wouldnt cut it. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.08 18:55:00 - [31] Edited by: Waxau on 08/04/2007 18:56:26 Originally by: Elad Dranoel Originally by: Victor Mason One of the other problems is that the Nid/Hel require you to fit a Remote Rep to use the bonus while the other carrier don't need to fit anything to get there bonus working for them... I can't say I know the answer, If logistics is the key for this carrier what about extra space in the hanger bays or jump range increase?? Victor Mason That's because it's a support ship. Osprey's require you to fit remote reps aswell to use the bonus too geniouis, the reps just don't magically appear out of nowhere... A Thanatos requires you to fit fighters to get the bonus for fighters... not drones. Does an osprey give a bonus to cargo hold size? A 25% reduction in remote repping on a Capital mod can make a world of difference in saving a friendly carrier needing an extra rep. Honestly, read the F-in ship description before hopping inside the ship and realizing you chose the wrong skill tree... If you don't want to be a support b^tch then don't fly one and stfu already. Next you'll be comlaining because the Nagflar does more dmg but doesn't tank as well as the other dreadnaughts... to my knowledge, the extra damage applies to drones too. And secondly, the osprey has equal counterparts in other races. Take the exequror, or arguror, or scythe. Difference is, is as victor said, none of the other ships need to fit modules to gain from their bonuses. A carrier without fighters is pointless - hence your thanatos arguement is flawed. Get a clue before posting, and stop flaming people just because you failed to grasp the concept of breast-feeding until aged 9. Nublet. Oh sorry - I took it, as seeing how you made assumptions on people, that i woud do likewise
Neji Boro	Posted - 2007.04.08 18:57:00 - [32] Originally by: Elad Dranoel Originally by: Victor Mason ... That's because it's a support ship. Osprey's require you to fit remote reps aswell to use the bonus too geniouis, the reps just don't magically appear out of nowhere... A Thanatos requires you to fit fighters to get the bonus for fighters... not drones. Does an osprey give a bonus to cargo hold size? A 25% reduction in remote repping on a Capital mod can make a world of difference in saving a friendly carrier needing an extra rep. Honestly, read the F-in ship description before hopping inside the ship and realizing you chose the wrong skill tree... If you don't want to be a support b^tch then don't fly one and stfu already. Next you'll be comlaining because the Nagflar does more dmg but doesn't tank as well as the other dreadnaughts... Geez, what a troll... but due to my desire to clear up any false information(as well as having an excess of free time), I think I'll clear up your misconceptions again, seeing as you seem to have ignored my last post. The point you're continuously missing is that the other carriers all have personal bonuses in addition to their natual support bonuses, whereas the Nidhoggur gets a support bonus of questionable application. The other carriers all have abilities that allow them to function in roles aside from ferrying about and trying to transfer to people in a huge fleet battle, while still allowing them to perform that role exceedingly well. If it's meant for a support role, fine, but it needs something helpful to really fill the role, instead of an ability that doesn't do much good(read ahead for an explanation why). Just to be sure you'll be able to grasp this concept of things actually being unbalanced, I'll give you an example of how this bonus would work. It costs 1500 cap and 5 seconds, by default, to use a cap shield transfer I. That's 300 cap/second. A Nidhoggur with level V carrier does the same cycle in 3.75 seconds, or 400 cap/second. The same numbers apply to shield amount, since it is also 1500/cycle. Ignoring cap regen for a moment(since they all have the same regen time anyway), I'll compare how quickly the ships will run out of cap. A Nidhoggur can maintain 400 shield/second for 87.5 seconds. The Chimera can last about 50% longer, with 125 seconds of 300 shield/second. A Thanatos can maintain 133.3 seconds of 300 shield/second. Finally, the Archon can do 144.2 seconds of 300 shield/second. This shows that despite the fact that they can give more in a shorter amount of time, they also burn out more quickly. This is all with only a single transfer module, as well. The Nidhoggur burns out its cap more quickly in return for having slightly more potential. HOWEVER, this is not a reasonable trade-off. Think of the Nidhoggur as an autocannon with a high RoF bonus and a small space for ammo. Sure, it can get a lot of effect out quickly, but it spends a lot more time reloading than it does firing, making it useful ONLY in situations where it needs to get out a lot of healing quickly, and without much risk to its tanking ability during that time(IE Recharging a POS' shields right before a big fight... and that's it).
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.04.08 19:06:00 - [33] Edited by: Elad Dranoel on 08/04/2007 19:06:11 Originally by: Neji Boro Originally by: Elad Dranoel Originally by: Victor Mason ... That's because it's a support ship. Osprey's require you to fit remote reps aswell to use the bonus too geniouis, the reps just don't magically appear out of nowhere... A Thanatos requires you to fit fighters to get the bonus for fighters... not drones. Does an osprey give a bonus to cargo hold size? A 25% reduction in remote repping on a Capital mod can make a world of difference in saving a friendly carrier needing an extra rep. Honestly, read the F-in ship description before hopping inside the ship and realizing you chose the wrong skill tree... If you don't want to be a support b^tch then don't fly one and stfu already. Next you'll be comlaining because the Nagflar does more dmg but doesn't tank as well as the other dreadnaughts... Geez, what a troll... but due to my desire to clear up any false information(as well as having an excess of free time), I think I'll clear up your misconceptions again, seeing as you seem to have ignored my last post. The point you're continuously missing is that the other carriers all have personal bonuses in addition to their natual support bonuses, whereas the Nidhoggur gets a support bonus of questionable application. The other carriers all have abilities that allow them to function in roles aside from ferrying about and trying to transfer to people in a huge fleet battle, while still allowing them to perform that role exceedingly well. If it's meant for a support role, fine, but it needs something helpful to really fill the role, instead of an ability that doesn't do much good(read ahead for an explanation why). Just to be sure you'll be able to grasp this concept of things actually being unbalanced, I'll give you an example of how this bonus would work. It costs 1500 cap and 5 seconds, by default, to use a cap shield transfer I. That's 300 cap/second. A Nidhoggur with level V carrier does the same cycle in 3.75 seconds, or 400 cap/second. The same numbers apply to shield amount, since it is also 1500/cycle. Ignoring cap regen for a moment(since they all have the same regen time anyway), I'll compare how quickly the ships will run out of cap. A Nidhoggur can maintain 400 shield/second for 87.5 seconds. The Chimera can last about 50% longer, with 125 seconds of 300 shield/second. A Thanatos can maintain 133.3 seconds of 300 shield/second. Finally, the Archon can do 144.2 seconds of 300 shield/second. This shows that despite the fact that they can give more in a shorter amount of time, they also burn out more quickly. This is all with only a single transfer module, as well. The Nidhoggur burns out its cap more quickly in return for having slightly more potential. HOWEVER, this is not a reasonable trade-off. Think of the Nidhoggur as an autocannon with a high RoF bonus and a small space for ammo. Sure, it can get a lot of effect out quickly, but it spends a lot more time reloading than it does firing, making it useful ONLY in situations where it needs to get out a lot of healing quickly, and without much risk to its tanking ability during that time(IE Recharging a POS' shields right before a big fight... and that's it). If, you only had a brain... Did you ever stop to think about Quote: they can give more in a shorter amount of time was it's intention in the first place? I was wrong; you're still complaining about the same thing. Maybe next time it'll be about how unfair it is shield boosters rep more and quicker, but can't run as long as their armor repping counterparts doing it 24/7... ... snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intentions
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.08 19:09:00 - [34] Whats that got to do with anything? lol. Stop trolling.
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.04.08 19:12:00 - [35] Originally by: Waxau Whats that got to do with anything? lol. Stop trolling. Use your brain and stop complaining because you want the "I win" feature. ... snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intentions
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.08 19:15:00 - [36] Edited by: Waxau on 08/04/2007 19:14:20 Originally by: Elad Dranoel Originally by: Waxau Whats that got to do with anything? lol. Stop trolling. Use your brain and stop complaining because you want the "I win" feature. I dont even fly the damn ship mate. I know it sucks however, with its current bonus. And please...get a new insult. Calling me square would be an improvement
Victor Ivanov Minmatar Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.08 19:53:00 - [37] ...... Me hugs Elad Come on lads. It is quite evident that someone didn't get loved enough in his youth. Instead of debating and argueing, let's show him some love. Minmatar group hug! (All other races also welcome) On the subject of the Nid: I think everything has been summarized and discussed in great detail. I'm running out of more potentially feasible ideas. However, I could also follow Elad's advice: CCP, please give us Nidhoggur pilots a Doomsday device. ----------------------
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.04.08 19:54:00 - [38] It's appears to be, for some of you, that part of your problem of being ignorant about remote repping is due to some of you never actually flying a carrier yourself and trying it out. Some of you seem to think you can run a remote rep and tank at the same time. Unless you have officer cap rechargers then this is impossible. It's either or gentlemen. Not both. Shield Emission 4 Carrier 4 Thanatos 5 cc2's 3 t1 rigs 1 remote shield rep 2 cap reps Runs out of cap in 300 seconds. So if you're complaining because you think other carriers can multi-task too, stfu now. ... snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intentions
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.08 20:06:00 - [39] ...no ones saying that. Nor was i when you convo'd me to argue. Simple fact is, Nid's bonuses are wasted. Much like the buzzards 'missile' bonus. Only difference, is that whilst the buzzard has similar bonuses to other cov ops, which makes them generally on par, the Nid doesnt have a bonus thats on par. In fact, its relatively pointless.
Victor Ivanov Minmatar Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.08 20:12:00 - [40] Could I urge everyone to ignore the troll? This thread is made at a request by the devs. Let's not make irony a very tangible thing by allowing it to derail in the feeding of a troll. :) What defines a troll you say? Somebody who comes in a thread, makes a number of (valid) points which are then discredited using sheer hard facts, and then decides to respond by insults and flames. And I'm not even going to mention his numerous mentions of "STFU, n00b". :) ----------------------
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.08 20:17:00 - [41] Originally by: Victor Ivanov Could I urge everyone to ignore the troll? This thread is made at a request by the devs. Let's not make irony a very tangible thing by allowing it to derail in the feeding of a troll. :) What defines a troll you say? Somebody who comes in a thread, makes a number of (valid) points which are then discredited using sheer hard facts, and then decides to respond by insults and flames. And I'm not even going to mention his numerous mentions of "STFU, n00b". :) /signed Boost Nid!
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.04.08 20:23:00 - [42] Edited by: Elad Dranoel on 08/04/2007 20:21:00 Originally by: Waxau ...no ones saying that. Nor was i when you convo'd me to argue. Simple fact is, Nid's bonuses are wasted. Much like the buzzards 'missile' bonus. Only difference, is that whilst the buzzard has similar bonuses to other cov ops, which makes them generally on par, the Nid doesnt have a bonus thats on par. In fact, its relatively pointless. This is getting off topic with you denying what you said, but you explicitly told me how you could tank and remote rep a BS at the same time. Where as in an Oversized Rifter you wouldn't be able to because it drains your cap so much faster?... The point is, the Minmitar Carrier is meant as a capital support ship. 48,000 hp repped VS 36,000 in 2 Minutes makes a big difference. That's an extra Cap Rep + 1/3. Still gonna say it's useless? ... snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intentions
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.08 20:25:00 - [43] Edited by: Goumindong on 08/04/2007 20:21:22 Originally by: Elad Dranoel It's appears to be, for some of you, that part of your problem of being ignorant about remote repping is due to some of you never actually flying a carrier yourself and trying it out. Some of you seem to think you can run a remote rep and tank at the same time. Unless you have officer cap rechargers then this is impossible. It's either or gentlemen. Not both. Shield Emission 4 Carrier 4 Thanatos 5 cc2's 3 t1 rigs 1 remote shield rep 2 cap reps Runs out of cap in 300 seconds. So if you're complaining because you think other carriers can multi-task too, stfu now. Read my post on other side. Caldari and Amarr carriers get the Minmatar bonus as well as a tanking bonus for themselves. Except the Caldari and Amarr bonuses also confer a capacitor bonus to the ship repping/boosting them asl well. If we add that to the fact that primarying the ship with exactly the same offense and better tank is a completly stupid thing to do you find that the minmatars bonus is severly lacking. A support item when used in a group needs to be stronger than an individual item when used in a group or no one will use it in the group. Thus the remote rep bonus needs to be stronger, not only in speed, but also in efficiency, by a significant amount, compared to the individual tanking bonuses in order to be beneficial. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.08 20:30:00 - [44] Originally by: Elad Dranoel Edited by: Elad Dranoel on 08/04/2007 20:21:00 Originally by: Waxau ...no ones saying that. Nor was i when you convo'd me to argue. Simple fact is, Nid's bonuses are wasted. Much like the buzzards 'missile' bonus. Only difference, is that whilst the buzzard has similar bonuses to other cov ops, which makes them generally on par, the Nid doesnt have a bonus thats on par. In fact, its relatively pointless. This is getting off topic with you denying what you said, but you explicitly told me how you could tank and remote rep a BS at the same time. Where as in an Oversized Rifter you wouldn't be able to because it drains your cap so much faster?... The point is, the Minmitar Carrier is meant as a capital support ship. 48,000 hp repped VS 36,000 in 2 Minutes makes a big difference. That's an extra Cap Rep + 1/3. Still gonna say it's useless? Yes, because anything that needs that much repping in that amount of time that is not a capital ship will explode LONG before it makes a difference, and if it doesnt the remote rep ability will likly not be needed because you are going to be overwhelming your opponents anyway. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.08 20:33:00 - [45] Originally by: Elad Dranoel Edited by: Elad Dranoel on 08/04/2007 20:21:00 Originally by: Waxau ...no ones saying that. Nor was i when you convo'd me to argue. Simple fact is, Nid's bonuses are wasted. Much like the buzzards 'missile' bonus. Only difference, is that whilst the buzzard has similar bonuses to other cov ops, which makes them generally on par, the Nid doesnt have a bonus thats on par. In fact, its relatively pointless. This is getting off topic with you denying what you said, but you explicitly told me how you could tank and remote rep a BS at the same time. Where as in an Oversized Rifter you wouldn't be able to because it drains your cap so much faster?... The point is, the Minmitar Carrier is meant as a capital support ship. 48,000 hp repped VS 36,000 in 2 Minutes makes a big difference. That's an extra Cap Rep + 1/3. Still gonna say it's useless? I wont deny i said about tanking and repping at the same time. But who said about perma tanking? Secondly - I dunno where you're pulling the oversized rifter comment from :S As a third point, its a support ship yes - As are all carriers. And yes i am going to say its useless. Part of having a carrier is logistics - A thanatos can do it. An Archon can do it. A chimera can do it. A nid can do it, Without the bonuses. The problem as stated countless times, is that the bonus is pointless. It reps faster, WOOO. That means if its repping a ship being ganked by 10 BS, its going to survive a few seconds longer. YAY! The worlds saved. Oh wait...no its not. Because not only does it not provide much use for the ship being repped, but also means that the nid's cap is dead, and means it cant tank the hostile BS that will be coming after it shortly afterwards. Or maybe we should look at it from a different angle. Lets just use a Thanatos as an example. Its got no tank bonus - So both are as useful there. Difference is the logistics vs the dps. thanatos can pop the hostile BS to assist in saving the friendly BS, whilst repping it just as effectively really, as the nid. Then, if pray tell it doesnt have enough cap to tank, it might last long enough for the extra dps to take out those BS. Chimera? It can tank like a ***** and have enough time to take out the BS. Archon - Likewise, but more effectively. But poor ol' Nid? Its poor cap, let alone its useless bonus, means its crap defensively and offensively, leaving its one remaining option, to go suck eggs, or failing that...Choke on an egg (which is quite hard i might add).
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.04.08 20:47:00 - [46] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 08/04/2007 20:21:22 Originally by: Elad Dranoel It's appears to be, for some of you, that part of your problem of being ignorant about remote repping is due to some of you never actually flying a carrier yourself and trying it out. Some of you seem to think you can run a remote rep and tank at the same time. Unless you have officer cap rechargers then this is impossible. It's either or gentlemen. Not both. Shield Emission 4 Carrier 4 Thanatos 5 cc2's 3 t1 rigs 1 remote shield rep 2 cap reps Runs out of cap in 300 seconds. So if you're complaining because you think other carriers can multi-task too, stfu now. Read my post on other side. Caldari and Amarr carriers get the Minmatar bonus as well as a tanking bonus for themselves. Except the Caldari and Amarr bonuses also confer a capacitor bonus to the ship repping/boosting them asl well. If we add that to the fact that primarying the ship with exactly the same offense and better tank is a completly stupid thing to do you find that the minmatars bonus is severly lacking. A support item when used in a group needs to be stronger than an individual item when used in a group or no one will use it in the group. Thus the remote rep bonus needs to be stronger, not only in speed, but also in efficiency, by a significant amount, compared to the individual tanking bonuses in order to be beneficial. I could agree that the Minmitar carrier might need an even bigger % boost on the skill bonus, but Amarr & Caldari don't get range bonus to Both shield/armor like Thanatos/Minmitar do. The problem I have with this topic is the OP is asking for it to get boosts not intended for the Minmitar section of the carriers. It a support ship, and that's the way it's gonns stay. His 3 main points are completely incorrect: # The duration bonus drains too much capacitor - Which means it Heals better than any other # The support bonus is not useful in combat - Like hell Remote Repping isn't useful in combat # It does not fit with the other carrier bonuses - Gank, Tank, Support anyone? Don't ask for More gank bonus, that's for the Gallente. Don't ask for more tank bonus, that's for Caldari/Amarr. And asking more jumprange would completely remove it from the 3 categories altogether. It serves no purpose in combat. Go mine or manufacture if you don't want to pvp. All you had to say was you would like the bonus % to be increased; not ask to make a support ship to become something it's not. ... snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intentions
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.08 20:50:00 - [47] But it doesnt have useful bonuses. Remote repping is effective in a small gang, where you arent having to 'tank' the friendly from literally hundreds of ships. At which point, the bonuses become pointless. Its effective on all other carriers. As it is with the nid. Any further and its pointless.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.08 20:54:00 - [48] Edited by: Goumindong on 08/04/2007 20:52:10 i just showed you, on the last page, how it in fact doest heal better than any other. Stop trolling. It should also be noted that remote repping, like all repping, is only very strong on a long term, and not short term scale. This is another reason why a boost that is not more capacitor efficient doesnt help the ship. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Capt Rob Minmatar Black Omega Security GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.04.08 20:59:00 - [49] elad, this thread is not for trolling about people's ideas; as it seems you have a very limited amount to add to the discussion except critizing people on their ideas and opinions, how bout ya stop
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.04.08 21:02:00 - [50] Edited by: Elad Dranoel on 08/04/2007 21:02:40 Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 08/04/2007 20:52:10 i just showed you, on the last page, how it in fact doest heal better than any other. Stop trolling. It should also be noted that remote repping, like all repping, is only very strong on a long term, and not short term scale. This is another reason why a boost that is not more capacitor efficient doesnt help the ship. It adds an extra 1/3 of a Cap rep which is most definitely useful. And repping is actually instant, not a couple minutes delayed. Especially remote shield reps which boost the second they are activated. You can still run a remote rep indefinitely on the Minmitar, so your post on the last page was meaningless since it's still reps more per second. If you want to talk about the bonuses not helping in large fights, well neither will the Aeons tanking bonus help when you have 50 ships targetting you. ... snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intentions
c0rn1 Seraphin Technologies S.E.R.A	Posted - 2007.04.08 21:26:00 - [51] Edited by: c0rn1 on 08/04/2007 21:24:04 Originally by: Elad Dranoel I could agree that the Minmitar carrier might need an even bigger % boost on the skill bonus, but Amarr & Caldari don't get range bonus to Both shield/armor like Thanatos/Minmitar do. Amarr Carrier Skill Bonuses: 50% bonus to Capital Energy and Armor transfer range per level Caldari Carrier Skill Bonuses: 50% bonus to Capital Energy and Shield transfer range per level Read and Understand They got the energy transfer bonus which is VERY useful as well. So what's your problem with that? Originally by: Elad Dranoel The problem I have with this topic is the OP is asking for it to get boosts not intended for the Minmitar section of the carriers. It a support ship, and that's the way it's gonns stay. The point is that the minmatar carrier has the smallest CAP of and it's boni make it drain that small cap even faster. Every other damn carrier doesn't need any cap to use it's bonus. Since it is a support ship, it should provide it's services at least on an efficient level. Either armor/shield hp repair boost or a cap usage bonus for those mods (I suggested 7.5-10% per level). Originally by: Elad Dranoel His 3 main points are completely incorrect: # The duration bonus drains too much capacitor - Which means it Heals better than any other # The support bonus is not useful in combat - Like hell Remote Repping isn't useful in combat # It does not fit with the other carrier bonuses - Gank, Tank, Support anyone? Don't ask for More gank bonus, that's for the Gallente. Don't ask for more tank bonus, that's for Caldari/Amarr. And asking more jumprange would completely remove it from the 3 categories altogether. It serves no purpose in combat. Go mine or manufacture if you don't want to pvp. All you had to say was you would like the bonus % to be increased; not ask to make a support ship to become something it's not. 1) it would heal better WHEN it actually would be able to heal more than a thanatos/archon/chimera or use less cap for it's purpose. 2) since you got a basically gimped slot layout, the other need to heal YOU more if they want to keep you alive and stay in the battle as support ship. 3) all 3 other ships do not have to a) fit a special item to their ship to receive the bonus b) have to use it's cap for their bonus. => so the nidhoggur should have a second bonus if they have to equip special items which starts to make these items useful on that ship. it doesn't help me if I repair faster, when all 3 other carriers can repair a higher amount of hitpoints because they have a larger cap. Regards c0rn1 x x x x x x x x x x x x x x Life's a waste of time ...
ViperVenom Minmatar Fast Food Corp Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.04.08 21:27:00 - [52] Im in favor of a 5/5/6 slot lay out. I think the new bonus should be 5%EM/5%Therm shield armor res per skill Lv. Is that idea really that crazy?
c0rn1 Seraphin Technologies S.E.R.A	Posted - 2007.04.08 21:30:00 - [53] Edited by: c0rn1 on 08/04/2007 21:26:34 Originally by: ViperVenom Im in favor of a 5/5/6 slot lay out. I think the new bonus should be 5%EM/5%Therm shield armor res per skill Lv. Is that idea really that crazy? I do not need any resistance boni. I would like the nid to be useful in it's role which it got assigned to by CCP. why would I care for those higher resistances? that thing is not a wtfpwn mobile and these resistance boni just suck for it's role. this carrier is meant as the healer/supporter in the back of a fleet. regards c0rn1 x x x x x x x x x x x x x x Life's a waste of time ...
GC13 Caldari Derelik Trading Company	Posted - 2007.04.08 21:36:00 - [54] Elad, if you insist on posting in my thread, then you must cease employing strawman arguments and actually get to the heart of the discussion. Your rhetorical argument against improving the bonus boils down to this: the bonus to cycle time is just fine because it results in an effective bonus to HP healed per second. You then move to over-generalize your opponents by categorizing all people who want to change the Nidhoggur's bonus as people who want a gank bonus. While this is my personal preference, my post makes it quite clear that I am not representative of the concerned Eve players as a whole, and that not even I regard a gank bonus as the only valid option. Your argument is a strawman because it seeks to avoid the issue of the most popular support-related bonus suggestion: keeping the basic bonus but change it to an amount repaired bonus rather than a cycle time bonus. This way it not only is more time efficient at support than the other carriers, but is more capacitor efficient as well. -- Science and Industry guide plus A Newbie's Guide to Caldari Ships Eve and RPG blog
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.04.08 21:38:00 - [55] Edited by: Elad Dranoel on 08/04/2007 21:41:46 Originally by: c0rn1 Edited by: c0rn1 on 08/04/2007 21:24:04 Originally by: Elad Dranoel I could agree that the Minmitar carrier might need an even bigger % boost on the skill bonus, but Amarr & Caldari don't get range bonus to Both shield/armor like Thanatos/Minmitar do. Amarr Carrier Skill Bonuses: 50% bonus to Capital Energy and Armor transfer range per level Caldari Carrier Skill Bonuses: 50% bonus to Capital Energy and Shield transfer range per level Read and Understand Pay closer attention next time: Quote: don't get range bonus to Both shield/armor Quote: They got the energy transfer bonus which is VERY useful as well. So what's your problem with that? Originally by: Elad Dranoel The problem I have with this topic is the OP is asking for it to get boosts not intended for the Minmitar section of the carriers. It a support ship, and that's the way it's gonns stay. The point is that the minmatar carrier has the smallest CAP of and it's boni make it drain that small cap even faster. Every other damn carrier doesn't need any cap to use it's bonus. Since it is a support ship, it should provide it's services at least on an efficient level. Either armor/shield hp repair boost or a cap usage bonus for those mods (I suggested 7.5-10% per level). This is the only thing that should be discussed here. If you want more of a bonus then that's OK. But the OP asks for bonuses used for other races as well. You're not going to get a gank/tank bonus so stfu already. You are a support ship. Originally by: Elad Dranoel His 3 main points are completely incorrect: # The duration bonus drains too much capacitor - Which means it Heals better than any other # The support bonus is not useful in combat - Like hell Remote Repping isn't useful in combat # It does not fit with the other carrier bonuses - Gank, Tank, Support anyone? Don't ask for More gank bonus, that's for the Gallente. Don't ask for more tank bonus, that's for Caldari/Amarr. And asking more jumprange would completely remove it from the 3 categories altogether. It serves no purpose in combat. Go mine or manufacture if you don't want to pvp. All you had to say was you would like the bonus % to be increased; not ask to make a support ship to become something it's not. 1) it would heal better WHEN it actually would be able to heal more than a thanatos/archon/chimera or use less cap for it's purpose. 2) since you got a basically gimped slot layout, the other need to heal YOU more if they want to keep you alive and stay in the battle as support ship. 3) all 3 other ships do not have to a) fit a special item to their ship to receive the bonus b) have to use it's cap for their bonus. => so the nidhoggur should have a second bonus if they have to equip special items which starts to make these items useful on that ship. it doesn't help me if I repair faster, when all 3 other carriers can repair a higher amount of hitpoints because they have a larger cap. Regards c0rn1 It doesn't matter if you have less cap. You can still maintain a recharge with a rep on and rep MORE than any other carrier. The other ships can't use Remote+personal reps at the same time.* The OP only has 1 valid point, and it's pathetic seeing people beg to the devs to give them boosts that are not intended for their race. ... snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intentions
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.04.08 21:44:00 - [56] Originally by: c0rn1 Edited by: c0rn1 on 08/04/2007 21:26:34 Originally by: ViperVenom Im in favor of a 5/5/6 slot lay out. I think the new bonus should be 5%EM/5%Therm shield armor res per skill Lv. Is that idea really that crazy? I do not need any resistance boni. I would like the nid to be useful in it's role which it got assigned to by CCP. why would I care for those higher resistances? that thing is not a wtfpwn mobile and these resistance boni just suck for it's role. this carrier is meant as the healer/supporter in the back of a fleet. regards c0rn1 I'm glad that at least somone has the brains to realize this. You deserve a boost, but only for your role. The OP is asking for the whole enchilada and then some. Originally by: GC13 Elad, if you insist on posting in my thread, then you must cease employing strawman arguments and actually get to the heart of the discussion. Your rhetorical argument against improving the bonus boils down to this: the bonus to cycle time is just fine because it results in an effective bonus to HP healed per second. You then move to over-generalize your opponents by categorizing all people who want to change the Nidhoggur's bonus as people who want a gank bonus. While this is my personal preference, my post makes it quite clear that I am not representative of the concerned Eve players as a whole, and that not even I regard a gank bonus as the only valid option. Your argument is a strawman because it seeks to avoid the issue of the most popular support-related bonus suggestion: keeping the basic bonus but change it to an amount repaired bonus rather than a cycle time bonus. This way it not only is more time efficient at support than the other carriers, but is more capacitor efficient as well. When 90% of the responses here are asking for more than just a Support role increase, it's a fair generalization. If you had actually read what was written you would see that I did not avoid the issue. ... snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intentions
ViperVenom Minmatar Fast Food Corp Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.04.08 21:45:00 - [57] Originally by: c0rn1 Edited by: c0rn1 on 08/04/2007 21:26:34 Originally by: ViperVenom Im in favor of a 5/5/6 slot lay out. I think the new bonus should be 5%EM/5%Therm shield armor res per skill Lv. Is that idea really that crazy? I do not need any resistance boni. I would like the nid to be useful in it's role which it got assigned to by CCP. why would I care for those higher resistances? that thing is not a wtfpwn mobile and these resistance boni just suck for it's role. this carrier is meant as the healer/supporter in the back of a fleet. regards c0rn1 The role CCP gave it is not good one. CCP said they want more frontline carriers. With the Nid current slot layout and boni. It very hard for it to front line. with the RES boost i thought of it tank like mad and could be used front line. 5/5/6 slot lay out is simple. 5%/%5 EM/Thrm armor/shield Boni would be simple and making the CAP off all carrier the same would also be nice. Also 5% tracking to the fighters/drones would also be nice. But i like the tank idea better.
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.04.08 21:49:00 - [58] Originally by: ViperVenom Originally by: c0rn1 Edited by: c0rn1 on 08/04/2007 21:26:34 Originally by: ViperVenom Im in favor of a 5/5/6 slot lay out. I think the new bonus should be 5%EM/5%Therm shield armor res per skill Lv. Is that idea really that crazy? I do not need any resistance boni. I would like the nid to be useful in it's role which it got assigned to by CCP. why would I care for those higher resistances? that thing is not a wtfpwn mobile and these resistance boni just suck for it's role. this carrier is meant as the healer/supporter in the back of a fleet. regards c0rn1 The role CCP gave it is not good one. CCP said they want more frontline carriers. With the Nid current slot layout and boni. It very hard for it to front line. with the RES boost i thought of it tank like mad and could be used front line. 5/5/6 slot lay out is simple. 5%/%5 EM/Thrm armor/shield Boni would be simple and making the CAP off all carrier the same would also be nice. Also 5% tracking to the fighters/drones would also be nice. But i like the tank idea better. If you don't like the role, then don't play it. It's as simple as that. See what I mean when people keep asking for things that will never be changed. If you prefer another playstyle, then use it. Don't expect the game to change how it's made just for you. ... snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intentions
GC13 Caldari Derelik Trading Company	Posted - 2007.04.08 21:51:00 - [59] Originally by: Elad Dranoel When 90% of the responses here are asking for more than just a Support role increase, it's a fair generalization. If you had actually read what was written you would see that I did not avoid the issue. Really? Because I only found five people endorsing one sort of bonus over the other, and 70% of the opinions were in favor of an improved support role (one person wanted either that or a better tank) with only one endorsement of the gank bonus. In the thread this post was summarizing, the split was even between aggressive (either fighter tracking or fighter speed), personal tank, and support. So 90% is a bit of an exaggeration. So I'm going to have to insist that rather than continuing to troll my thread, you go ahead and make your own "Leave the Nidhoggur the same" thread. -- Science and Industry guide plus A Newbie's Guide to Caldari Ships Eve and RPG blog
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.08 22:01:00 - [60] Originally by: Elad Dranoel Edited by: Elad Dranoel on 08/04/2007 21:54:17 Originally by: GC13 Originally by: Elad Dranoel When 90% of the responses here are asking for more than just a Support role increase, it's a fair generalization. If you had actually read what was written you would see that I did not avoid the issue. Really? Because I only found five people endorsing one sort of bonus over the other, and 70% of the opinions were in favor of an improved support role (one person wanted either that or a better tank) with only one endorsement of the gank bonus. In the thread this post was summarizing, the split was even between aggressive (either fighter tracking or fighter speed), personal tank, and support. So 90% is a bit of an exaggeration. So I'm going to have to insist that rather than continuing to troll my thread, you go ahead and make your own "Leave the Nidhoggur the same" thread. You seem to have the same problem as well. It doesn't matter if 1/3 of the people want the Support class to all of a sudden become the gank/tank class. Tough... There is no room for discussion since each race plays a specific role that you Can Not change. Instead, focus how your only valid point, being that the Minmitar needs a bonus boost. If you don't want to be support, then train something else. It's as simple as that. Don't cry on the forums for ccp to change the game for you because you chose the wrong skill tree. Ok - ill play along with your idea... So...you say that the nid is a support carrier, and thats its role, right? Fair do's. So..why is it a support carrier? What basis is there, in Roleplay form, or even eve background, to substitute the need for a support carrier? Do gallente get the 'damage' bonus for a reason? Yes. Thats their race. Do caldari get the tanking bonus? Yes, because thats what they do. Do Amarr get a tanking bonus? Yes, because thats what they do. What do minnie do? Cos ive yet to see one of their ships as a logistics ship, compared to other race's counterparts being combat orientated. Game, Set, and match.
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.04.08 22:05:00 - [61] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 08/04/2007 22:02:42 Why the support bonus as it is now is useless: carriers are fleet ships, and remote rep-ing is strongest in very small groups. In most of the scenarios where a carrier is going to be used, the carrier pilot has three options: 1) Sitting at a POS with fighters assigned. In this case only the Thanatos has a relevant bonus, but at least the Archon and Chimera get strong benefits in the other situations. 2) The enemy is focusing fire on the smaller ships, and the Nidhoggur trying to repair them. Except with slow carrier lock times and high damage spikes, the primary target is likely dead before the rep bonus can make a difference. The only result is more cap burned for little to no effect. 3) The enemy is focusing fire on the capitals. In this case, the Nidhoggur is called primary and dies. It has a weaker tank than the Archon and Chimera, so taking it down first is the fastest way to remove incoming damage. The remote rep bonus is completely useless since nobody else is taking damage to be repaired. And it's even worse if the Nidhoggur pilot has been forced to burn that extra cap in a futile attempt at remote-tanking, since now it has an even weaker tank! So it's essentially a non-bonus, compared to very powerful bonuses for the other three. It either needs to be a much better (more cap efficient, especially) logistics bonus, or changed to something else entirely.
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.04.08 22:06:00 - [62] Edited by: Elad Dranoel on 08/04/2007 22:04:24 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Elad Dranoel Edited by: Elad Dranoel on 08/04/2007 21:02:40 Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 08/04/2007 20:52:10 i just showed you, on the last page, how it in fact doest heal better than any other. Stop trolling. It should also be noted that remote repping, like all repping, is only very strong on a long term, and not short term scale. This is another reason why a boost that is not more capacitor efficient doesnt help the ship. It adds an extra 1/3 of a Cap rep which is most definitely useful. And repping is actually instant, not a couple minutes delayed. Especially remote shield reps which boost the second they are activated. You can still run a remote rep indefinitely on the Minmitar, so your post on the last page was meaningless since it's still reps more per second. If you want to talk about the bonuses not helping in large fights, well neither will the Aeons tanking bonus help when you have 50 ships targetting you. Whether or not the repping is instant or not is immaterial. All repping is better in low DPS long engagements. Repping is only good in HIGH dps engagements if said repping will materially affect the time a ship survives. For ships smaller than capital ships in any place where a capital ship will not horribly overpower the opposition such engagements do not happen. As for your assertion that "you can still run a rep all the time so the cap use isnt an issue" is false. That is similar to saying "the abaddon can still run a single megapulse all the time, so cap use isnt an issue". Repair amount is limited not by slots, but by capacitor. And since the minnie caps arent any more cap efficient than their competitors they are limited by the same capacitor. This means that other cap ships can rep just as much as they can. Similarly wrong is your assertion that the Aeons bonus will not help when you have 50 ships targeting you. The Aeon/archon bonus is 33% more hit points as well as 33% better repair. A 3 Aeon combination can have any one of them tanking 25,000 DPS. If all those 50 ships are dealing 1000 DPS then you will have to eat through about 3.7 million normalized hit points to kill one. Which will take about 4.2 hours. Without the bonus this would take 2.5 hours. A comparable Hel setup? Bwa ha ha ha ha ha, good luck Unless the rep is more cap efficient then it doesnt add another 1/3 cap rep, and even if it does add another 1/3 cap rep, the other cap ships are better in totality because anyone repping them gets that same bonus, and a minmatar cap will not be fitting a better tank than any of the others while doing the same damage, while possible[but not likly] providing a better tank to its friends and will be likly targeted first, maybe behind the gallente. For the love of GOD! Quit complaining because your tank isn't as good, or your gank isn't as good. STFU already about that nonsense. No one cares, CCP doesn't care. They gave it the Support role, so deal with it. Talk about how you can improve the Support bonus. FYI, 1000dps is pretty pathetic, what you using in your analogy? 50 frigs? C'mon now. Trying to even compare this to an abbadon only using 1 laser...You might as well say you can only use 1/8th of the remote rep. All carrier can only use 1 remote rep, one can just repair faster than any of the others. Maybe not by much, but that's what you should be discussing, not how much you wish it had more dmg output... ... snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intentions
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.08 22:08:00 - [63] Edited by: Goumindong on 08/04/2007 22:08:04 Troll, Troll, go away Come again not any day The Nidhoggur wants to play In subspace, in the the fray Troll, Troll, go to Spain Never show your face again! ed: Since I am a glutton You can indeed run 1/8th a remote rep, you simply run it 1/8th the time! Similarly 1000 DPS is 50 max skilled full gank battleships, i would love to see the t1 frig that gets 1000 dps. Now 50 dreads will put the hurt on a lot faster yes, but those Aeons are still tanking it for a significant amount of time. The calc was against 50,000 incoming DPS, not 1000 dps. I have been saying the support bonus isnt good enough, it was my first, second, third, fourth and every reply. No one here is saying anything but. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.08 22:09:00 - [64] Me thinks its someones time of the month Either that, or knows hes losing the battle Face it Elad, your arguement is flawed, as not only numbers, but also valid arguements vastly outweigh your simplistic (at best) argument. And just to also add to what merin said - The nid has the weakest cap of all races, so it even tanks worse than a thanatos. Which therefore means the thanatos has better gank and tank than the nid. If thats balanced, please point out how.
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.04.08 22:10:00 - [65] Edited by: Elad Dranoel on 08/04/2007 22:09:26 Originally by: Goumindong Troll, Troll, go away Come again not any day The Nidhoggur wants to play In subspace, in the the fray Troll, Troll, go to Spain Never show your face again! Well that certainly was constructive. Instead of trying to bash me, try discussing ways to fix the support bonus. Like some have said, reducing the cap usage as well on remote reps. Originally by: Waxau Me thinks its someones time of the month Either that, or knows hes losing the battle Face it Elad, your arguement is flawed, as not only numbers, but also valid arguements vastly outweigh your simplistic (at best) argument. And just to also add to what merin said - The nid has the weakest cap of all races, so it even tanks worse than a thanatos. Which therefore means the thanatos has better gank and tank than the nid. If thats balanced, please point out how. Nothing is balanced mate. This isn't candyland where everyone's equal and cuddly soft. It doesn't matter if 100 more people come and cry because they chose the wrong role, it's not going to change the Minmitar's carrier role. ... snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intentions
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.08 22:13:00 - [66] Originally by: Elad Dranoel Originally by: Goumindong Troll, Troll, go away Come again not any day The Nidhoggur wants to play In subspace, in the the fray Troll, Troll, go to Spain Never show your face again! Well that certainly was constructive. Instead of trying to bash me, try discussing ways to fix the support bonus. Like some have said, reducing the cap usage as well on remote reps. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL! Ok..im going to quote this, cos this is great... Quote: For the love of GOD! Quit complaining because your tank isn't as good, or your gank isn't as good. STFU already about that nonsense. No one cares, CCP doesn't care. You really do remind me of a kid. You dish out the dirt, but cry when you get it dished. And then try to repremand others? Rofl - Get real.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.08 22:13:00 - [67] Originally by: Elad Dranoel Originally by: Goumindong Troll, Troll, go away Come again not any day The Nidhoggur wants to play In subspace, in the the fray Troll, Troll, go to Spain Never show your face again! Well that certainly was constructive. Instead of trying to bash me, try discussing ways to fix the support bonus. Like some have said, reducing the cap usage as well on remote reps. From above: ed: Since I am a glutton You can indeed run 1/8th a remote rep, you simply run it 1/8th the time! Similarly 1000 DPS is 50 max skilled full gank battleships, i would love to see the t1 frig that gets 1000 dps. Now 50 dreads will put the hurt on a lot faster yes, but those Aeons are still tanking it for a significant amount of time. The calc was against 50,000 incoming DPS, not 1000 dps. I have been saying the support bonus isnt good enough, it was my first, second, third, fourth and every reply. No one here is saying anything but. --------- Troll, Troll, Go away Come again not any day Troll, Troll, Go to Germany And remain their permanently ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
GC13 Caldari Derelik Trading Company	Posted - 2007.04.08 22:18:00 - [68] Originally by: Elad Dranoel Nothing is balanced mate. This isn't candyland where everyone's equal and cuddly soft. It doesn't matter if 100 more people come and cry because they chose the wrong role, it's not going to change the Minmitar's carrier role. Are you telling me you waged this War of Orthodoxy because you failed to take note of the popularity of changing the bonus to a 7.5% (or better) AMOUNT REPAIRED bonus on the reppers? That the whole reason you've been combative about the bonus being just fine is because you didn't feel like reading that bit? I find the way you move seamlessly from argument to argument disturbing. You tried to claim that support was the role of Minmatar before, and now you've come full circle to one of the major agreed upon solutions to the Nidhoggur's bonus as outlined in the original post. Never mind that none of this is saying why a tank/gank dichotomy would be a bad thing to see in the carriers. It certainly fits the Minmatar spirit to be gankers (along with the gank-heavy Gallente), and does not take away the range bonus all carriers get to their support modules, allowing them to more easily support in combat. The support bonus can be good, but the gank bonus can be good too. -- Science and Industry guide plus A Newbie's Guide to Caldari Ships Eve and RPG blog
Neji Boro	Posted - 2007.04.08 22:21:00 - [69] Edited by: Neji Boro on 08/04/2007 22:18:50 Edited by: Neji Boro on 08/04/2007 22:17:16 Elad, I'm going to try to knock out as many of your points as I can, without hitting the character limit. Response: Post #31: Yes, they can give 33% more per second, but they run out of cap even faster due to their low cap. In addition to this, it means they can't tank. Even then, the 33% increase in rep speed is negligible compared to massively increased fighter effectiveness, or a natural tank. At the very least, it should be +5%/level to amount. Post #33: The Nidhoggur is currently the worst carrier. It'd be an "I'm a viable alternative" button at best.(That doesn't really roll off the tongue, though..) Post #36: Five minutes of tank and transfer? That's way better than what the Nidhoggur can hold. That's an entire five minutes of having the capability to help. The Nidhoggur cannot stay in a fleet battle to rep AND take damage, because tank and rep eat it's cap the fastest of all the carriers. Post #40: Yes, it is useless, considering it probably wouldn't be able to sustain fire for two minutes AND be able to rep everyone. Anything below a minute of repping(all it'll likely be able to do) is practically neglible for a 33% bonus, isn't it? Post 44: If you haven't figured out why you're wrong yet, I've got my doubts about how you're even able to type coherently. First two points have been answered already(Nid has worst cap, and cannot sustain reps and tank as easily, and if you need to restrict use of transfers to manual use, chances are that extra 1 seconds[if you've even trained it to V] isn't going to help.). Third point isn't being interpreted correctly by many, to be honest. It should talk about how the other carriers all have bonuses that help the carrier itself, rather than a buff to its gang role. Post 48: It helps in the long run because only larger tanks can actually benefit from carrier support(other capitals, stuff at POS takedowns, etc). Smaller ships can't be targeted in time in most cases, and even larger ones if the battle is large enough. The only short term benefits I can see would be if the carrier was in small gang warfare, which is basically short term by default because of it's size. Post 53: It's possible alternative bonuses, troll. Ever think that maybe CCP originally intended different things for the carrier classes? I seem to remember cap level remotes taking well over 20 seconds a while back. That's what really broke the camel's back; the fact that an already weak bonus was made relatively worthless. Post 54: Geez, generalize much?(You seemed to have ignored GC13's post about the generalizations and straw men, too..) Also, didn't you just troll at that guy? Post 56: It's not the playstyle, it's the fact the ship blows at the role. Post 58: If you want to get into it, Minmatar are not support types at all, other than the specific ships. They focus on hit and run, which is probably why the repping has a RoF bonus. Honestly, the bonus could be better, which is what everyone is discussing(other than you, you're trolling). Would've had this response up earlier, but you seem to be really interested in this, what with you posting every three minutes and all. It's almost like you want us to bash down your poor arguments to get the devs more on the side of boosting the Nidhoggur. :D yawn Edit: Daaaaaang! A third page! Edit 2: Oh, and for the last frakking time, it's not the role, it's the fact that the bonus is crap for it.
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.04.08 22:22:00 - [70] Originally by: Waxau Originally by: Elad Dranoel Originally by: Goumindong Troll, Troll, go away Come again not any day The Nidhoggur wants to play In subspace, in the the fray Troll, Troll, go to Spain Never show your face again! Well that certainly was constructive. Instead of trying to bash me, try discussing ways to fix the support bonus. Like some have said, reducing the cap usage as well on remote reps. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL! Ok..im going to quote this, cos this is great... Quote: For the love of GOD! Quit complaining because your tank isn't as good, or your gank isn't as good. STFU already about that nonsense. No one cares, CCP doesn't care. You really do remind me of a kid. You dish out the dirt, but cry when you get it dished. And then try to repremand others? Rofl - Get real. Because I make posts that say: Retards, retards, Go away... Or have to keep reminding you that you're not going to be anything other than a support ship and should focus your efforts on that alone. When it comes to some of your responses about improving the role bonus, I disagree, because the minmitar does in fact remote rep better than any other ship. It just needs a lil tweaking to improve it. But because you want to cry about it not having everything else the other ships all have combined you will get nowhere. ... snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intentions
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.08 22:29:00 - [71] What are you on about Elad? lol. You're whining for the sake of it. None of your arguements have any basis, except that of 'Its a support carrier'. So ok - Boost the support roles, and make them DECENT. Oh but wait - I forgot. You're whining for the sake of it. So ok..we'll work around you. We'll give it a gank bonus. Gah! NO!! cos you want it to not rival your three other carriers . So..tank? Bah nope - same problem. Hm...what can we give it? Ah i know - Nothing...cos you said so. Dont worry CCP, Elad said it doesnt need a bonus - Lets all leave the game's balancing issues in his hands. ^^ <One year later> Blizzard + CCP Merge. <One month later> Dear WoW Players! Its finally arrived! Your characters can now go into the Eve universe! Watch as Wombat the Elf flies around in his executioner, pwning the dreadnaughts. I love sarcasm :) Oh wait Elad...you were being serious?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.08 22:29:00 - [72] Edited by: Goumindong on 08/04/2007 22:25:41 It in fact does not remote rep better than any other ship. Since repping is limited not by the number of slots you habe, but instead by the amount of cap you have, the minmatar cap ships are actualy the worst at remote repping than their competitors with stronger capacitor and/or recharge ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.04.08 23:01:00 - [73] Edited by: Elad Dranoel on 08/04/2007 23:06:03 Originally by: Neji Boro Elad, I'm going to try to knock out as many of your points as I can, without hitting the character limit. Response: [list] Post #31: Yes, they can give 33% more per second, but they run out of cap even faster due to their low cap. In addition to this, it means they can't tank. Even then, the 33% increase in rep speed is negligible compared to massively increased fighter effectiveness, or a natural tank. At the very least, it should be +5%/level to amount. It doesn't matter if you use up cap faster because you never actually run out of cap with just the Remote Rep on. As soon as you need to tank, you turn off the Remote Rep and activate the tank. Simple enough for you? You have only one valid point, being that the bonus isn't good enough. Don't try and use that as an excuse as to somehow it "runs out" of cap at all. So what if you can't tank as good, you don't hear Gallente pilots complaining that they can't tank as good as the Caldari. Quote: Post #33: The Nidhoggur is currently the worst carrier. It'd be an "I'm a viable alternative" button at best.(That doesn't really roll off the tongue, though..) This is a personal opinion, and has no place in this argument. Quote: Post #36: Five minutes of tank and transfer? That's way better than what the Nidhoggur can hold. That's an entire five minutes of having the capability to help. The Nidhoggur cannot stay in a fleet battle to rep AND take damage, because tank and rep eat it's cap the fastest of all the carriers. Your exaggeration with the use of "way better" is misleading. So a Minmitar can do it for 250 seconds, a bit slower than a Gallente. About 1 minute is all we're talking here. The minmitar can still tank and rep at the same amount but in a shorter period, which is more useful for saving another ship. It's more useful to get as much repair in as soon as possible than to have to wait another 2 minutes for a rep. I would rather have a Minmitar repping me than an Amarr. Quote: Post #40: Yes, it is useless, considering it probably wouldn't be able to sustain fire for two minutes AND be able to rep everyone. Anything below a minute of repping(all it'll likely be able to do) is practically neglible for a 33% bonus, isn't it? Look, instead of continuing to make assumptions, just test it out yourself before responding on here. Read previous response for more info. Quote: Post 53: It's possible alternative bonuses, troll. Ever think that maybe CCP originally intended different things for the carrier classes? I seem to remember cap level remotes taking well over 20 seconds a while back. That's what really broke the camel's back; the fact that an already weak bonus was made relatively worthless. Of course CCP intended different "things" for different carrier classes. It's already very obvious to almost everyone in game by now. Yes, the Minmitar was gimped worse than it is now. Your point being? Quote: Post 54: Geez, generalize much?(You seemed to have ignored GC13's post about the generalizations and straw men, too..) Also, didn't you just troll at that guy? Is this supposed to mean something? Dare I actually become a troll and start calling you names because I can't think of anything else to say?(troll?) Quote: Post 56: It's not the playstyle, it's the fact the ship blows at the role. Yes the role needs worked on, but don't forget that it's not going to be anything other than it's current role. Quote: Post 58: If you want to get into it, Minmatar are not support types at all, other than the specific ships. They focus on hit and run, which is probably why the repping has a RoF bonus. Honestly, the bonus could be better, which is what everyone is discussing(other than you, you're trolling). No one said CCP is trying to classify the Minmitar race as a whole as support. But it certainly is setup this way for the 4 Carriers ... snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intentions
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.08 23:07:00 - [74] Edited by: Waxau on 08/04/2007 23:03:53 Originally by: Elad Dranoel Is this supposed to mean something? Dare I actually become a troll and start calling you names because I can't think of anything else to say?(troll?) Hm...Didnt you do something like this, on this page? check out the next post to find the Answer!
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.08 23:09:00 - [75] Answer : YES HE DID! Quote: For the love of GOD! Quit complaining because your tank isn't as good, or your gank isn't as good. STFU already about that nonsense. No one cares, CCP doesn't care. They gave it the Support role, so deal with it. Talk about how you can improve the Support bonus. Congratulations for all those who guessed correct! god i love forum whoring...
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising	Posted - 2007.04.08 23:17:00 - [76] Originally by: Waxau Answer : YES HE DID! Quote: For the love of GOD! Quit complaining because your tank isn't as good, or your gank isn't as good. STFU already about that nonsense. No one cares, CCP doesn't care. They gave it the Support role, so deal with it. Talk about how you can improve the Support bonus. Congratulations for all those who guessed correct! god i love forum whoring... And how is instructing one with the basic information the same as reducing all your thoughts down to a worthless slandering term? Notice how I try and help you get back on track with discussing how to improve the support role rather than continue in the name calling?.. ... snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intentions
Neji Boro	Posted - 2007.04.08 23:30:00 - [77] Originally by: Elad It doesn't matter if you use up cap faster because you never actually run out of cap with just the Remote Rep on. As soon as you need to tank, you turn off the Remote Rep and activate the tank. Simple enough for you? It's very simple when you prove my points for me. By your own admission, the Nidhoggur CANNOT tank and fulfill its support role at the same time. The other three can. This is one point of several, which you should've been aware of if you have been doing things other than trolling, like you said you've been doing. Originally by: Elad This is a personal opinion, and has no place in this argument. So your opinion that it's a support ship, and is totally fine, shouldn't be allowed, then? Statistically speaking, the Nidhoggur has the lowest cap, mediocre hp and fittings, and a bonus that doesn't help with any of that. I'd consider that "worst", since the bonus is nowhere near as powerful as it'd need to be to make up for that. Originally by: Elad Look, instead of continuing to make assumptions, just test it out yourself before responding on here. Read previous response for more info. Keep in mind, you haven't shown conclusive physical proof that the Nidhoggur is actually useful either. I've shown math and logical metaphors at least. Originally by: Elad Of course CCP intended different "things" for different carrier classes. It's already very obvious to almost everyone in game by now. Yes, the Minmitar was gimped worse than it is now. Your point being? I think you need some more SP in Reading Comprehension. Different things in how they operate as a class, such as how they've discussed making carriers more front-line-friendly. Also, the Minmatar carrier is worse now because of the reduction in transfer time. Originally by: Elad Is this supposed to mean something? Dare I actually become a troll and start calling you names because I can't think of anything else to say?(troll?) Yes, insulting people, telling them to stfu constantly, and calling them stupid is generally considered trolling. Originally by: Elad Yes the role needs worked on, but don't forget that it's not going to be anything other than it's current role. Then why do you yell at everyone consistently, rather than supporting the people explicitly trying to get the support bonus altered to something more effective? Originally by: Elad No one said CCP is trying to classify the Minmitar race as a whole as support. But it certainly is setup this way for the 4 Carriers. Really? What'd you say in post 58... Originally by: Elad There is no room for discussion since each race plays a specific role that you Can Not change Anyyyyway..... Overall, we've been discussing(for the first page, anyway), how to improve the ship as a whole, including changes to its role. However, you've been trolling any and every post that wants a different bonus, and have only in the latest posts begun to actually support an alternative support bonus, ever since you've suddenly decided that you "aren't a troll". The problem is, you're still trolling, using strawmen arguments, and failing to do anything besides generalize the entire thread and summarily dismiss anything not cut up into easy sections. So, either change to what you say you are, or prepare to get taken care of by the forum mods when they notice you're trolling nearly every other post in a thread.
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.04.08 23:50:00 - [78] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 08/04/2007 23:48:44 Or how about another way of looking at this: how easy is it to duplicate each bonus with modules? A bonus that is both powerful and hard to duplicate is a more valuable bonus than one you can easily copy with a module or another rank in a skill. So then (assuming level IV in carrier skill)... 1) Thanatos: 20% damage bonus = +1.8 fighters (more if you use DCUs). Each DCU uses one high slot for +1 fighter, so to copy the Thanatos' bonus we need to use two high slots. Of course a max-gank Thanatos can't be matched, period. Bonus value: 2 high slots. 2) Nidhoggur: -20% rep duration = +a fraction of a rep. Each rep uses a high slot for +1 full rep. So we can copy the poor Nidhoggur's rep bonus by fitting a second rep and running it part of the time (also allowing a higher peak/unsustainable rep amount if you run it full time). A max-rep Nidhoggur couldn't be matched, but because of cap needs it doesn't actually exist. Bonus value: less than half a high slot. 3) Chimera/Archon: 20% resistance = +1 EANM/invulnerability field. This produces a tank that can't be copied by any of the other ships, since in addition to the powerful non-stacking-penalized tank bonus, they also have the most tank slots available. Any tank their competition can fit can be done better by the Chimera/Archon. Bonus value: one tank slot (priceless when existing slot layout is considered). Result: The Chimera/Archon have the most valuable bonuses, with the Thanatos being slightly less valuable (but the only one useful with remote-assigned fighters), and the Nidhoggur a distant last. And just to add insult to injury, in the only situation where remote rep-ing in a fleet is very useful (capitals as primary target), the Nidhoggur's weak tank makes it the primary target and it can't even use its bonus at all.
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising	Posted - 2007.04.08 23:55:00 - [79] Edited by: Elad Dranoel on 08/04/2007 23:53:56 Originally by: Neji Boro It's very simple when you prove my points for me. By your own admission, the Nidhoggur CANNOT tank and fulfill its support role at the same time. The other three can. This is one point of several, which you should've been aware of if you have been doing things other than trolling, like you said you've been doing. "The other three can" Think again Neji. None of them can unless you use officer caps. So much for that rebuttle... Quote: So your opinion that it's a support ship, and is totally fine, shouldn't be allowed, then? Statistically speaking, the Nidhoggur has the lowest cap, mediocre hp and fittings, and a bonus that doesn't help with any of that. I'd consider that "worst", since the bonus is nowhere near as powerful as it'd need to be to make up for that. This is not opinion; but rather fact. Quote: Keep in mind, you haven't shown conclusive physical proof that the Nidhoggur is actually useful either. I've shown math and logical metaphors at least. Math?! What math and where? Oh you mean this Quote: Five minutes of tank and transfer? That's way better than what the Nidhoggur can hold. Since you just realized it can run the setup for 5 minutes by putting a question mark, you then go on to make more assumptions as to how much worse off the Minmitar is. Quote: I think you need some more SP in Reading Comprehension. Different things in how they operate as a class, such as how they've discussed making carriers more front-line-friendly. Also, the Minmatar carrier is worse now because of the reduction in transfer time. No ones said they are better off now. Settle down there. CCP said they want to make carriers more front-line-friendly. The Minmitar happens to be the worst at it. Someone's always going to be last place. Quote: Yes, insulting people, telling them to stfu constantly, and calling them stupid is generally considered trolling. Because instead of spouting useless jibberish by calling people names left and right, you should stfu. Quote: Then why do you yell at everyone consistently, rather than supporting the people explicitly trying to get the support bonus altered to something more effective? Wait a second...what happened to me being the one who's irrational generalizations with the use of "everyone?" I'm telling the people who want something that isn't going to happen to stfu. Plain and simple. I've already mentioned my support for boosting the role bonus. This is directed towards the people unintelligent enough to figure out which issues to argue over. Quote: Really? What'd you say in post 58... Originally by: Elad There is no room for discussion since each race plays a specific role that you Can Not change That would be referring to the 4 Carrier ships Neji. ... snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intentions
Neji Boro	Posted - 2007.04.09 00:35:00 - [80] Okay, you've finally reached the point where your retarded logic has worn down my will to even continue arguing against what seems to be a brick wall. You've contradicted yourself at least three times in that last post, reinterpreted your own lines in several different ways to fit the situation, and it's **ing me off. You've taken lines and lines of logic, and BSed your way through all of them. Congratulations, you're retarded. However, as a reasonable person, I'll highlight a few of your issues.... Originally by:** Elad No ones said they are better off now. Settle down there. CCP said they want to make carriers more front-line-friendly. The Minmitar happens to be the worst at it. Someone's always going to be last place. Originally by: Elad Yes, the Minmitar was gimped worse than it is now. - Originally by: Elad Math?! What math and where? Oh you mean this (Insert reference to... no clue what) Have you checked post #30? The one where I gave an example of how the Nidhoggur is extremely cap-restricted because of it's "bonus"? No, you didn't. - Originally by: Elad This is not opinion; but rather fact. Yes, it's a support ship. I've said this at least two dozen times now. Your opinion is that it is 100% fine, which is the whole, y'know, topic of discussion. - Originally by: Elad Wait a second...what happened to me being the one who's irrational generalizations with the use of "everyone?" I'm telling the people who want something that isn't going to happen to stfu. Plain and simple. I've already mentioned my support for boosting the role bonus. This is directed towards the people unintelligent enough to figure out which issues to argue over. Um, there's a difference between saying that 90% of people in the thread want the Nidhoggur to be an uberwtfpwnmobile, and saying that you insult everyone. Especially when you insult everyone(or just don't respond to them). - Originally by: Elad That would be referring to the 4 Carrier ships Neji. Oh really? I guess your own vague wording describing the ship's role only as Minmatar couldn't possibly be the cause of that. That'd be too correct, wouldn't it? - Originally by: Elad "The other three can" Think again Neji. None of them can unless you use officer caps. So much for that rebuttle... It depends entirely on your definition of tanking. I was referring to tanking part of a reasonably sized gang(40-60?), not an entire 200+ man fleet. The Chimera and Archon each get a tanking bonus which lets them take a significantly smaller portion of damage. The Thanatos gets uberfighters that kill the heavy DPS enemies. The Nidhoggur gets to drain it's cap 25% faster. Which of those four will be able to last longer while simultaneously using it's support role? Get my point yet? Oh wait, no, the Nidhoggur is supposed to completely avoid combat, like the good little support ship it is. Hm, but wait, doesn't that negate the fact that it repairs things quickly? No, since none of the other carriers can take a lick of damage either. Or perhaps the third excuse, that the Nidhoggur can just rely on it's [extremely poor due to fittings, slots, and cap] tank and turn off it's transfers... Any way you look at it, I'm done with this charade of a debate. Have fun under your bridge, troll.
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising	Posted - 2007.04.09 01:16:00 - [81] Edited by: Elad Dranoel on 09/04/2007 01:23:51 Originally by: Elad No ones said they are better off now. Settle down there. CCP said they want to make carriers more front-line-friendly. The Minmitar happens to be the worst at it. Someone's always going to be last place. Originally by: Elad Yes, the Minmitar was gimped worse than it is now. What is this double quote even supposed to mean? They're both the same thing Neji. - Originally by: Elad Math?! What math and where? Oh you mean this Quote: (Insert reference to... no clue what) Have you checked post #30? The one where I gave an example of how the Nidhoggur is extremely cap-restricted because of it's "bonus"? No, you didn't. Nice little edit where you claim that your riduculous post on the first page was anything of intelligent value. By excluding the fact that Carriers, and all ships for that matter, recharge, your post is useless. Being that you can remote rep indeifintely it doesn't matter that one uses slightly more cap which won't cause you to not be able to turn it off and switch to tanking....But we can all see you don't think things through that far ahead... - Originally by: Elad This is not opinion; but rather fact. Quote: Yes, it's a support ship. I've said this at least two dozen times now. Your opinion is that it is 100% fine, which is the whole, y'know, topic of discussion. You haven't been comprehending anything that has been said here if you think that. No where did I say Minmitar is 100% fine. I said if you don't want to fly a support ship, then fly something else. It's very simple. Meanwhile try to come up with ways to fix that bonus, not try and switch it to something completely different like a Ganker for instance. - Originally by: Elad Wait a second...what happened to me being the one who's irrational generalizations with the use of "everyone?" I'm telling the people who want something that isn't going to happen to stfu. Plain and simple. I've already mentioned my support for boosting the role bonus. This is directed towards the people unintelligent enough to figure out which issues to argue over. Quote: Um, there's a difference between saying that 90% of people in the thread want the Nidhoggur to be an uberwtfpwnmobile, and saying that you insult everyone. Especially when you insult everyone(or just don't respond to them). I said 90% of the people responding here want the Minmitar to be something it's not, which is a support vessel. Again, try to think things through first. - Originally by: Elad That would be referring to the 4 Carrier ships Neji. Quote: Oh really? I guess your own vague wording describing the ship's role only as Minmatar couldn't possibly be the cause of that. That'd be too correct, wouldn't it? You're guessing and assumptions are getting pretty sad. The whole time I've only talked about Carriers. If you can't understand that, then you need to think a little harder. - Quote: ...I was referring to tanking part of a reasonably sized gang(40-60?), not an entire 200+ man fleet. ... The Thanatos gets uberfighters that kill the heavy DPS enemies. The Nidhoggur gets to drain it's cap 25% faster. Which of those four will be able to last longer while simultaneously using it's support role? Get my point yet? ... Hm, but wait, doesn't that negate the fact that it repairs things quickly? No, since none of the other carriers can take a lick of damage either. Or perhaps the third excuse, that the Nidhoggur can just rely on it's [extremely poor due to fittings, slots, and cap] tank and turn off it's transfers... Again, poorly thought out, the Minmitar is only slighty worse than a Thanatos if you wanted to fit 2 reps, you'd be missing a DMC. What you said was that the other three can tank+remote rep which is completely false. Quote: Any way you look at it, I'm done with this charade of a debate. Have fun under your bridge, troll. Aaand back to your usual witty comments. Think of anything new and meaningful to say yet? ... snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intentions
Pesadel0 Ordem dos Templarios Te-Ka	Posted - 2007.04.09 01:50:00 - [82] Guys ignore the caldari troll,i even would say that he doesn't even flew ,flies a nid. I would love a change in the bonus what one exactly?There is only 3 to choose from: -Better bonus to the existing repair bonus -Giving him a bonus to jump distance(this one seems cool) -And the last a bonus to its tanking ,but i'am not sure if we should receive a armor tank bonus,maybe a shield bonus like the cyclone and the mael(Runs for the hills). I was sworn to absolute secrecy BY CCP.
Neji Boro	Posted - 2007.04.09 03:07:00 - [83] Originally by: Elad Dranoel Edited by: Elad Dranoel on 09/04/2007 01:23:51 Originally by: Elad No ones said they are better off now. Settle down there. CCP said they want to make carriers more front-line-friendly. The Minmitar happens to be the worst at it. Someone's always going to be last place. Originally by: Elad Yes, the Minmitar was gimped worse than it is now. What is this double quote even supposed to mean? They're both the same thing Neji. Actually, the first quote is you saying that nobody "said they[Nidhoggur] are better off now[since a patch reduced capital transfer module times to current levels]", and the second is you saying that "the Minmitar was gimped worse than it is now", meaning you in fact DID say that they were better off. It's a minor point, but pretty clearly shows the level you're operating on. Originally by: Elad Originally by: Elad Math?! What math and where? Oh you mean this Quote: (Insert reference to... no clue what) Have you checked post #30? The one where I gave an example of how the Nidhoggur is extremely cap-restricted because of it's "bonus"? No, you didn't. Nice little edit where you claim that your riduculous post on the first page was anything of intelligent value. By excluding the fact that Carriers, and all ships for that matter, recharge, your post is useless. Being that you can remote rep indeifintely it doesn't matter that one uses slightly more cap which won't cause you to not be able to turn it off and switch to tanking....But we can all see you don't think things through that far ahead... There was no edit, and I have no idea why you'd think there was one. I didn't include the cap recharge because they all recharge the same amount of cap/second while at the same percentage of cap, when the same person is piloting them, and with the same fittings. Therefore, it's irrelevant, especially considering that it peaks at probably about 53 without any modules boosting it, less than 1/5th of one second of transfer. Originally by: Elad Originally by: Elad That would be referring to the 4 Carrier ships Neji. Quote: Oh really? I guess your own vague wording describing the ship's role only as Minmatar couldn't possibly be the cause of that. That'd be too correct, wouldn't it? You're guessing and assumptions are getting pretty sad. The whole time I've only talked about Carriers. If you can't understand that, then you need to think a little harder. No, you just need to learn how to type correctly. Not my issue if you've got deficient grammar skills. Originally by: Elad Quote: ...I was referring to tanking part of a reasonably sized gang(40-60?), not an entire 200+ man fleet. ... The Thanatos gets uberfighters that kill the heavy DPS enemies. The Nidhoggur gets to drain it's cap 25% faster. Which of those four will be able to last longer while simultaneously using it's support role? Get my point yet? ... Hm, but wait, doesn't that negate the fact that it repairs things quickly? No, since none of the other carriers can take a lick of damage either. Or perhaps the third excuse, that the Nidhoggur can just rely on it's [extremely poor due to fittings, slots, and cap] tank and turn off it's transfers... Again, poorly thought out, the Minmitar is only slighty worse than a Thanatos if you wanted to fit 2 reps, you'd be missing a DMC. What you said was that the other three can tank+remote rep which is completely false. They CAN tank and remote rep, they just can't do both permanently. I've never said they can do it permanently, and expecting that is wrong. HOWEVER, the other three carriers can either do it longer due to their resistance bonuses(Amm/Cal), or have a higher chance of surviving just from being able to kill the enemies(Gal). Of course, you could also just consider how the Nidhoggur already has poor stats for fitting and hps. There were also some strawmen arguments, but it's really just more of the same stuff, so I'm calling it a night.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.09 03:53:00 - [84] Originally by: Elad Dranoel It doesn't matter if you use up cap faster because you never actually run out of cap with just the Remote Rep on. As soon as you need to tank, you turn off the Remote Rep and activate the tank. Simple enough for you? The remote rep? Singular? There are 5 high slots on a carrier. Anyone, by fitting two remote reps can rep just as powerfully as a Nidhoggur can. And just like any other timed module, can scale the cap use by activation. remote repping is not limited by slots, but instead limited by the capacitor efficiency It the minmatar carries are not more cap efficient than the other ships then they are not better at remote repping. Its that simple. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.09 03:55:00 - [85] Edited by: Goumindong on 09/04/2007 03:53:25 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 08/04/2007 23:48:44 Or how about another way of looking at this: how easy is it to duplicate each bonus with modules? A bonus that is both powerful and hard to duplicate is a more valuable bonus than one you can easily copy with a module or another rank in a skill. So then (assuming level IV in carrier skill)... 1) Thanatos: 20% damage bonus = +1.8 fighters (more if you use DCUs). Each DCU uses one high slot for +1 fighter, so to copy the Thanatos' bonus we need to use two high slots. Of course a max-gank Thanatos can't be matched, period. Bonus value: 2 high slots. 2) Nidhoggur: -20% rep duration = +a fraction of a rep. Each rep uses a high slot for +1 full rep. So we can copy the poor Nidhoggur's rep bonus by fitting a second rep and running it part of the time (also allowing a higher peak/unsustainable rep amount if you run it full time). A max-rep Nidhoggur couldn't be matched, but because of cap needs it doesn't actually exist. Bonus value: less than half a high slot. 3) Chimera/Archon: 20% resistance = +1 EANM/invulnerability field. This produces a tank that can't be copied by any of the other ships, since in addition to the powerful non-stacking-penalized tank bonus, they also have the most tank slots available. Any tank their competition can fit can be done better by the Chimera/Archon. Bonus value: one tank slot (priceless when existing slot layout is considered). Result: The Chimera/Archon have the most valuable bonuses, with the Thanatos being slightly less valuable (but the only one useful with remote-assigned fighters), and the Nidhoggur a distant last. And just to add insult to injury, in the only situation where remote rep-ing in a fleet is very useful (capitals as primary target), the Nidhoggur's weak tank makes it the primary target and it can't even use its bonus at all. This is exactly the reason it is weak. Well, aside from all the other reasons noted[see explanation of how weak a remote rep bonus is compared to another bonus as my last post on page 1, and why a stronger bonus must exist to balance their use.][Also, it should be noted that due to stacking penalties, the 1 slot tank bonus is not the same as the 1 high slot penalties, As with a full tank it will take many more slots to gain another 20% resistances. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Ariel Dawn SniggWaffe Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.04.09 05:20:00 - [86] Originally by: Elad Dranoel Shield Emission 4 Carrier 4 Thanatos 5 cc2's 3 t1 rigs 1 remote shield rep 2 cap reps Runs out of cap in 300 seconds. Shield Emission 4 Carrier 4 Nidhoggur 6 CC2s 3 Cap Recharge Rigs 1 Remote Shield Rep 2 Cap Reps Runs out of cap in 195 seconds Which means that the Thanatos (and any other carrier) actually repair MORE than the Nidhoggur over an extended period of time because the Nid caps out so much earlier while the others can keep their reps/transfer running.
Capt Rob Minmatar Black Omega Security GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.04.09 06:19:00 - [87] think this thread has gone a bit off track, hell elad you even aggred the nidhoggur needs a "tweak", we dont need your dumb spam about how every 1 elses idea about how it should be tweaked is wrong.
Bob ThePlumber United Society Starfleet Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.04.09 09:51:00 - [88] first of all, anybody whose ever actually flown a nidhoggur knows it needs a boost, anyone who says otherwise is a noob (and quite possibly cant even fly carriers, muchless the nid) i am definitely AGAINST changing the slot layout however...i'm a dedicated shield tanker, if i fly a minmatar ship that doesnt shield tank, i just fit more damage mods, and dont tank at all...as an example, i have 600k SPs in mechanic i think, while i've got 3-4mil SPs in engineering... the bonus is the one thing i'd like to see changed, to help bring it up to par with the other carriers. as said in the original post, a fighter speed bonus would mess with the tracking too much, but how about a fighter MWD speed bonus? so they will get in range of their targets faster. it would definitely be a huge leap from the bonus it has now, and i dont see any way anyone could really complain about it (unless their the ones getting killed ofcourse...) today i actually got to jump my carrier into a battle, for the first time (until now it sat at a POS and i went AFK while my fighters were out) and i had alot of fun, it takes quite a long time for fighters to move 70-80kms to get to a target however, and a 5% per lvl fighter MWD speed bonus would give it something that the other carriers just cant really get (like the chimaera's shield tank that no other carrier can achieve for example)... A fighter MWD speed bonus would also be very in-line with the way many minmatar choose to fight. most minmatar ships are either setup for high speed, or pure destructive force, or a combination of the two...a support bonus (which at lvl4 is only .8 sec less time on remote capital reps...very weak if you ask me, compared to 20% shield, or armor resists, or fighter damage) as for other bonuses it could use, it definitely doesnt have enough CPU...with just a shield tank, a couple nos, and couple of drone control units, i max out my CPU...its impossible to fit remote shield transfers with a shield tank on the thing (as someone said before, the problem is the 300 CPU use for the booster, i doubt the caldari carrier can fit shield transfers either...) -BTP
Victor Ivanov Minmatar Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.09 11:02:00 - [89] Ehh, personally I would preffer Armour Tanking the Nid. We may be a race of duality, but most of our ships armour tank, thus twould be nice to see the Nid do that as well. Why? Well, mostly because it would leave our medium slots free for things such as Sensor Boosters(Integral when remote repping), cap rechargers(Again, integral for the whole support role) and other assorted stuff to help us live our support role. With all our meds being used for Shield tanking, that leaves very little room for support modules to support others. :) ----------------------
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising	Posted - 2007.04.09 11:57:00 - [90] Edited by: Elad Dranoel on 09/04/2007 12:20:34 Mr Neji, the unidentified alt, Some people just can't use their brain correctly. There's nothing worse than someone who can't admit they're wrong and continues to try to argue mute points ignoring that their main idea is completely flawed. Trying to argue that anybody thinks the the minmitar carrier is better off now, is ridiculous. Since it still needs a bonus fix. It's amazing how ignorant you are about this subject. You need to stop assuming what's going on and actually test it yourself. They do not all recharge at the same rate at the same percentage of cap, because they each have different fittings allowing for different recharge rates. The amount of cap and the recharge rate differs with each carrier even if you use 4 cc2's and 3 teach one rigs for each test. There's no point in trying to run a remote rep without mods so why even bring it up? Don't try to blame you limited intelligence capacity on someone else because your warped view of this topic somehow turned into a race discussion. Keep it to the 4 carrier discussions. You keep ignoring the fact that the Minmitar carrier heals more in a shorter amount of time. It doesn't matter if other carriers can run the rep longer, they are repairing less in the same amount of time. Which makes the Minmitar carrier the support ship and more useful. The minmitar can tank and rep at the same time as well. It just reps the other ship faster. It's not made to be a tanker, so quit complaining because the amarr/caldari can do it better or that your dmg output is lower than the gallente. This is the problem I have with this thread, Minimtar carrier pilots want to complain because their ship is different and want it to be more like the other carriers. A shield tanking Minmitar carrier is far better than a armor tanking Thanatos. So quit your childish complaining already. Goumindong, No carrier can sustain 2 remote reps with a tank unless using officer cap rechargers. What is your point supposed to be? Since your opinion of a valuable bonus is a good tank, you need to stop complaining about the Minmitar carrier and switch over the either the caldari or amarr carriers; not trying to get the minmitar carrier to become something it's not. It's a support ship that can tank better than the gallente carrier. Pick and chose the class you want to be in, stop complaining because you have have it all. Any other ignorant comments from the peanut gallery? Anyways, Ariel, it's 250 seconds, not 190. Victor Ivanov, Cap power relays are better than cap rechargers. Giving you an even better cap recharge rate when shield tanking which is better than armor tanking. You have room for an active hardner for each damage type plus the shield rep and a sensor booster, giving you a far better tank than the weakest gallente carrier. The gallente carrier sucks on the battlefield. If it's called primary, it's going down faster than a properly fitted minmitar carrier(shield tanking). Does anyone even bother testing setups and verrifying what they say before posting anymore? ... snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intentions
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.09 12:10:00 - [91] Ignoring the troll... I personally think the Nid is fine how it is. However as i stated, i dont fly the ship, however i have been around them for a long while now, whether its being the 'assigned' ship, or being repped on the front lines, or well - Anything. And i know just how crap it is compared to other carriers. I think the slot layout is fine, as the armor tank is good enough, and so is the shield tank. However, what i do think is possible is the armor rep bonus changed. Im thinking along the lines of 'less cap' usage. This would then mean it can tank another ship for longer. Thus keeping its support bonus, and making it more effective, especially on the front line. I am however wary about the jump range one, seeing as how CCP are wanting to stop carriers being the 'transports'. I think a jump range bonus would just add to the confusion and balancing issues in the future. But theyre my views, and might not be as educated as some of those who fly it. But ofcourse, better views that SOME people
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.09 12:23:00 - [92] sorry......i couldnt pass this up. Again, insulting about the brain - obvious troll or retard. And yes, there is nothing worse than someone who cant admit theyre wrong, and continues to argue - Well volunteered mr Guinea pig. And hold on....another contraction! Keep it to talking about 4 carriers? So...was that someone else on your account who posted about Ospreys? :P Quote: You keep ignoring the fact that the Minmitar carrier heals more in a shorter amount of time. It doesn't matter if other carriers can run the rep longer, they are repairing less in the same amount of time. Which makes the Minmitar carrier the support ship and more useful. No....all it means is that its cap is drained faster, repairing something which wont make much of a difference, which ultimately will mean the nid dies faster, with no positive outcome. And HOLD ON! You were in a convo with me, moaning like a girl that no carrier can rep and tank at the same time and....whats this? Quote: The minmitar can tank and rep at the same time as well. It just reps the other ship faster. Hmm...contradiction number 2. And as for complaining....they're bringing valid, unbiased views on the nidhogger, much like i am. Unlike some, who are posting unbalanced, pointless, and illogical conclusions, such as yourself, who just want your ship (if you even fly one) to stay unrivaled. But - ill keep playing your game...A shield tanking Nid is better than an armor tanking thanatos you say? Lol. A thanatos tanks better than a chimera you dimwitted fool. Id liketo see a chimera to run a perma-dual shield booster setup, and have tonnes of cap mods too ^^ And now the best bit..... Quote: No carrier can sustain 2 remote reps with a tank unless using officer cap rechargers. So...with officer mods, the other races can run dual remote reps + a tank....but the nid cant. All you've done is just blown up the image of the problem, and failed to noticed that the Nid is still left in the dark, nub. And swtich over to the other carriers? Mate, i hate to tell you this, but no one would 'switch over' just suddenly. For me to suddenly switch to the Thanatos, id have to train armor skills, and gallente BS to lv 5, just so i could get into a thanatos, and ofcourse - Not forgetting the gallente carrier skill. Bright idea there, nublet. and just fyi.... Quote: Cap power relays are better than cap rechargers. Giving you an even better cap recharge rate when shield tanking which is better than armor tanking as well. cap relays nuke shield boost amount firstly. Secondly, we need med slots to tank, not for cap rechargers. Therefore, we dont have any slots to effectively boost our cap recharge. So its naked. I really do wonder if you have a clue about eve, let alone carriers..
Dray Caldari Endgame.	Posted - 2007.04.09 12:25:00 - [93] Originally by: c0rn1 Archon - Bloody kick ass armor tank Chimera - Kick ass Shield tank Thanatos - Fighter Damage 4tw with a good armor tank Nidhoggur - Support Carrier par excellence with mediocre shield/armor tank (whatever you like) This is what was orginally intended and where we are looking to go. I'll be the first to admit that the poor 'Niddy' and its big brother the Hel need to have a more well-defined role. We're also looking at several improvements for carriers in general for Kali 2 in order to expand front-line combat roles. We do read these threads but we don't have the time to respond to them all. One suggestion I would make is for some of you to look at this thread. Posts like these get noticed and are more likely to be acted upon when the OP lays things out well. The feedback is very much valued, especially with regard to this level of play. In short, be specific with us. Smile "Tux did it!" This was posted by CCP Abathur in the other boost the nidhoggur thread, seems CCP does think the nid and hel need help, as for the support role i dont have a problem with it aslong as its useful, currently it isnt, end of....
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising	Posted - 2007.04.09 12:45:00 - [94] Edited by: Elad Dranoel on 09/04/2007 12:44:29 Waxau, The alt was trying to turn this into a Race war, when it needs to be kept to a discussion between carriers. The Vagabond is anything but a support ship. Although the typhoon is a very commonly used with a remote rep. The cap does NOT drain. It's misleading so say that it drains the cap when all 4 carriers can sustain a remote rep permanently since the cap recharges. All it means is that the minmitar carrier repairs more in a shorter amount of time. I have no clue what you're pulling out of your ass trying to accuse me of saying that any carrier could maintain a tank+remote rep at the same time. No point in trying to argue with someone who's small minded brain actually believes: Originally by: Waxau A thanatos tanks better than a chimera [yellow]snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intenti
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.09 13:53:00 - [95] I liked the fighter speed bonus. It really fits minmatar style. Or reduced signature of the fighters (harder to kill them) If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.09 14:01:00 - [96] Originally by: Elad Dranoel Goumindong, No carrier can sustain 2 remote reps with a tank unless using officer cap rechargers. What is your point supposed to be? Since your opinion of a valuable bonus is a good tank, you need to stop complaining about the Minmitar carrier and switch over the either the caldari or amarr carriers; not trying to get the minmitar carrier to become something it's not. It's a support ship that can tank better than the gallente carrier. Pick and chose the class you want to be in, stop complaining because you have have it all. I am going to explain this to you very slow. The amount of repair that a carrier can produce is not limited by the number of high slots it has, but instead limited by the amount of capacitor it has. If a minnie carrier/mom fits 2 remotes, and an amarran carrier/mom fits 3 remotes, the amarran carrier will have a faster repair amount. What allows a carrier to remote rep more or less is the amount of capacitor it has and the efficiency of its remote reps. If the Minnies remote reps arent more efficient than the amarrans remote reps then it is not able to remote rep more than the amarran. Now, the remote reps on a minnie carrier/mom arent more efficient than the remote reps on an amarran ship, and because of this, it doesnt remote rep any better than they do. The Minmatar carrier does not remote rep better than the amarran carrier because remote repair modules are limited by capacitor and not slots. this makes the amarran carrier a better support carrier than the minmatar carrier ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising	Posted - 2007.04.09 14:14:00 - [97] Edited by: Elad Dranoel on 09/04/2007 14:10:37 No carrier run more than 1 remote rep permanently. But they all can run multiples for a short time. The minmitar carrier repairs the same amount in a shorter time frame, making it a better logistic ship. Originally by: Elad 48,000 hp repped VS 36,000 in 2 Minutes makes a big difference. That's an extra Cap Rep + 1/3. Still gonna say it's useless? Take a basic math class before posting next time. Originally by: Waxau A thanatos tanks better than a chimera [yellow]snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intenti
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.09 14:21:00 - [98] Originally by: Elad Dranoel Edited by: Elad Dranoel on 09/04/2007 14:10:37 No carrier run more than 1 remote rep permanently. But they all can run multiples for a short time. The minmitar carrier repairs the same amount in a shorter time frame, making it a better logistic ship. Originally by: Elad 48,000 hp repped VS 36,000 in 2 Minutes makes a big difference. That's an extra Cap Rep + 1/3. Still gonna say it's useless? Take a basic math class before posting next time. Yes it is worthless... how many times did you saw a Nig in battle reping anyone? Have a clue why? If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Standard Deviation	Posted - 2007.04.09 14:22:00 - [99] Originally by: Elad Dranoel Edited by: Elad Dranoel on 08/04/2007 23:19:45 Originally by: zwerg Originally by: Elad Dranoel There are Gankers, Tankers and Support ships. Know your place and stfu. There are people who have an opinion and show it, there are people who like listening to others, and there are people like you, always complaining because something went wrong with their life. The only people complaining here would be the people who trained up for a Support ship and now wish they would have trained something else. Know your place and stfu.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.09 14:23:00 - [100] Originally by: Elad Dranoel Edited by: Elad Dranoel on 09/04/2007 14:10:37 No carrier run more than 1 remote rep permanently. But they all can run multiples for a short time. The minmitar carrier repairs the same amount in a shorter time frame, making it a better logistic ship. Originally by: Elad 48,000 hp repped VS 36,000 in 2 Minutes makes a big difference. That's an extra Cap Rep + 1/3. Still gonna say it's useless? Take a basic math class before posting next time. It doesnt repair the same amount in a shorter time frame because the limit is not on slots but on cap. An other races carrier that fits an extra rep reps faster than the Minnie rep, and is just as cap efficient. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising	Posted - 2007.04.09 14:25:00 - [101] Well that's why it needs to be fixed. It's not as good as it should be. But just because people don't use the ships properly(shield tanking+remote repping) doesn't mean it's acceptable to be asking to turn it into a tanker/ganker. Originally by: Waxau A thanatos tanks better than a chimera [yellow]snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intenti
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising	Posted - 2007.04.09 14:29:00 - [102] Goumindong, You really are thick headed... How does comparing 2 remote reps to 1 remote rep solve anything? Think a little harder next time. Would you rather get repped 24k/min or 18k/min? Hmmmm... Originally by: Waxau A thanatos tanks better than a chimera [yellow]snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intenti
Victor Ivanov Minmatar Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.09 14:34:00 - [103] me falls to the ground laughing hysterically at the whole "Use Capacitor Power Relay's for a better Shield tank thing." By the gods... I can understand ignorance on a race that you don't fly. But your own? I've got a solution though. Why don't you take a Raven, fit it out with Capacitor Power Relays and an active shield tank then come fight me. This debating is much like trying to headbutt an elephant to death. It may work at one point or another, but it's more likely that you'll get a severe headache. Anyway, if somebody has any actual reasoning behind the discrediting of my post regarding Nidhoggur: Armour or Shield tanking, please share it. There may be plenty I have forgotten, and this thread is meant for mature discussion after all. Completely arbitrary contribution: I can't help but imagine the troll in a real life talk with his boss: Boss: I'm sorry Elad. We are going to have to let you go. Elad: STFU n00b! I have a graph which compares my work efficiency to amount of bunnies copulating in the spring, and this CLEARLY shows a correlation that should fully validate my statement and prove my superior intellect. If you question my graph, you are a retard. Boss: ......calls security ----------------------
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.09 14:34:00 - [104] Edited by: Goumindong on 09/04/2007 14:31:20 Originally by: Elad Dranoel Goumindong, You really are thick headed... How does comparing 2 remote reps to 1 remote rep solve anything? Think a little harder next time. Would you rather get repped 24k/min or 18k/min? Hmmmm... Because it compares the ships as they can be fitted. I mean, we could be comparing the minnie carrier with 0 remote reps, but that would be freaking stupid. A minnnie ship needs to fit 3 remote reps of the same time to get a single slot advantage over their competitor. The rest have the slot advantage in their speciality from the outset and by a significant margian. The support bonus needs to be more capacitor efficient[as well as just plain stronger than 5%], since a double nid remote rep setup is weaker than a double archon remote rep setup. As i have been argueing in each and every post here. ED: In fact any number of nidhoggurs in a spider setup will tank worse than any number of archons in a spider tanking setup. That is a problem. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising	Posted - 2007.04.09 14:42:00 - [105] Can you explain clearly how a double remote repping archon repairs more than a double remote repping Nidhoggur? Goumindong: 48k < 36k Rrright... That's forgetting that neither can sustain it for very long. Originally by: Waxau A thanatos tanks better than a chimera [yellow]snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intenti
HorseFeeding	Posted - 2007.04.09 14:46:00 - [106] Originally by: Goumindong ED: In fact any number of nidhoggurs in a spider setup will tank worse than any number of archons in a spider tanking setup Sorry but if the Archons are repairing each other for 18k a minute and the Nidhoggurs are repairing each other for 24k a minute I think he's right.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.09 14:47:00 - [107] Originally by: Elad Dranoel Can you explain clearly how a double remote repping archon repairs more than a double remote repping Nidhoggur? Goumindong: 48k < 36k Rrright... That's forgetting that neither can sustain it for very long. See page 1. Archon1 heals archon2, with 1 rep, Archon2 recieves 1.33 normalized hit points , archon1 uses 1 cap Nid1 heals Nid2, with 1 rep, nid2 recieves 1.33 normalized hit points, nid1 uses 1.33 cap. Clearly there is a problem when the support ships create a worse support based spider tank than the tank ships. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.09 14:48:00 - [108] Originally by: HorseFeeding Originally by: Goumindong ED: In fact any number of nidhoggurs in a spider setup will tank worse than any number of archons in a spider tanking setup Sorry but if the Archons are repairing each other for 18k a minute and the Nidhoggurs are repairing each other for 24k a minute I think he's right. 18/.75 = 24 ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
AutumnWalker	Posted - 2007.04.09 14:50:00 - [109] I think the Nidhoggur should get a boost to the cap reduction as well as duration too. It is a support ship, even the devs have said so themselves.
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising	Posted - 2007.04.09 14:56:00 - [110] Quote: Archon1 heals archon2, with 1 rep, Archon2 recieves 1.33 normalized hit points , archon1 uses 1 cap Nid1 heals Nid2, with 1 rep, nid2 recieves 1.33 normalized hit points, nid1 uses 1.33 cap. You still fail to realize that a Nidhoggur repairs 1500 armor in 3.75 seconds vs the Amarr in 5 seconds. They both can do this indefinetely. Think again about who's "spider tank" heals less. Originally by: Waxau A thanatos tanks better than a chimera [yellow]snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intenti
Phat Hores	Posted - 2007.04.09 14:59:00 - [111] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: HorseFeeding Originally by: Goumindong ED: In fact any number of nidhoggurs in a spider setup will tank worse than any number of archons in a spider tanking setup Sorry but if the Archons are repairing each other for 18k a minute and the Nidhoggurs are repairing each other for 24k a minute I think he's right. 18/.75 = 24 The Minmitar carrer does repair more than the others. I know people who fly them.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.09 14:59:00 - [112] Originally by: Elad Dranoel Quote: Archon1 heals archon2, with 1 rep, Archon2 recieves 1.33 normalized hit points , archon1 uses 1 cap Nid1 heals Nid2, with 1 rep, nid2 recieves 1.33 normalized hit points, nid1 uses 1.33 cap. You still fail to realize that a Nidhoggur repairs 1500 armor in 3.75 seconds vs the Amarr in 5 seconds. They both can do this indefinetely. Think again about who's "spider tank" heals less. And the amarran heals 2000 armor every 5 seconds. Coincidentally they both come out to the same amount of hit points per second. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.09 15:00:00 - [113] Originally by: Phat Hores Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: HorseFeeding Originally by: Goumindong ED: In fact any number of nidhoggurs in a spider setup will tank worse than any number of archons in a spider tanking setup Sorry but if the Archons are repairing each other for 18k a minute and the Nidhoggurs are repairing each other for 24k a minute I think he's right. 18/.75 = 24 The Minmitar carrer does repair more than the others. I know people who fly them. I dont think you quite understand what is happening here. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising	Posted - 2007.04.09 15:10:00 - [114] Originally by: Goumindong And the amarran heals 2000 armor every 5 seconds. This is hilarious. You and Waxau just keep making fools of yourselves... Since you've just made it quite obvious you don't actually fly carriers yourself and are just looking at the outdated Eve-o item database; take another look at the stats for a remote armor/shield reps ingame. Originally by: Waxau A thanatos tanks better than a chimera [yellow]snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intenti
Kar Anshral	Posted - 2007.04.09 15:22:00 - [115] Edited by: Kar Anshral on 09/04/2007 15:24:55 Originally by: Elad Dranoel Originally by: Goumindong And the amarran heals 2000 armor every 5 seconds. This is hilarious. You and Waxau just keep making fools of yourselves... Since you've just made it quite obvious you don't actually fly carriers yourself and are just looking at the outdated Eve-o item database; take another look at the stats for a remote armor/shield reps ingame. It's you who doesn't get what goumindong means. btw in outdated itemdatabase capital remote armor is 2000 every 10s, not every 5s, think about what goumindong is saying some more.(hint: archon resist bonus) bah, i guess I'll try to explain: Nidhoggur, -25% duration to remote shield/armor -> 3.75s per cycle, 1500hp per cycle, 1125 cap per cycle = 400hp/s, 300 cap/s. Nidhoggur carrier group repping eachother is 400 hp/s for each remote running for 300 cap/s Archon, 25% armor resist bonus -> 5s cycle, 1500hp per cycle, 1125cap = 300hp/s, 225cap/s. Archon carrier group repping eachother is 300 hp/s for each remote running for 225cap/s, now add the 25% resist bonus to that value, 25% less damage taken means that every hp repaired is worth 1.33 hp or iow: the 300 hp/s from 1 remote is actually worth 400 hp/s. conclusion: Both nidhoggur and Archon group rep the same amount of hp per second but the Archons do it more efficiently, using 25% less cap. On top of that the Archons own reppers are 33.33% more effective.
Kar Anshral	Posted - 2007.04.09 15:43:00 - [116] Edited by: Kar Anshral on 09/04/2007 15:42:14 Originally by: PooLicka Quote: It's you who doesn't get what goumindong means. btw in outdated itemdatabase capital remote armor is 2000 every 10s, not every 5s, think about what goumindong is saying some more.(hint: archon resist bonus) I put what he said in bold. Originally by: Elad Dranoel Think again about who's "spider tank" heals less. Goumindong was talking about armor tankers, but what about shield tankers? Archons aren't the only carriers in game. Shield tanking Nidhoggurs repairing each other in a circle boosts more resistance and repair amount than Amarrs. I think the Nidhoggurs need some more love though. They should repair even faster. Why are you comparing shield tanking Nids with armor tanking Archons ... If you wanna compare shield tanked Nids compare them to Chimera's and guess what, exactly the same case as with the Archons. And btw, in my experience with Nidhoggurs, if you fit a shield tank you'll have a difficult time actually fitting capital shield transporters due to lack of cpu. For what it does, the nidhoggur's bonus is plain wrong. They want a strong support carrier, fine but don't make it use even more cap at same time.
Plymer Ization Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.04.09 15:51:00 - [117] Just to ignore the main argument/trolling of the 'major' players in this thread, I just had an interesting idea. If the Nid is meant to be a 'support' ship with remote reps, etc, give it an innate Sensor and Scan Resolution bonus, be it simply a flat increase or a skill-level bonus. When a carrier is sensor damped, its support bonus is useless; having some kind of resistence to that (but not all-out EW immunity like supercaps) would definitely be a step in the right direction. My personal preference though, is changing the layout to 5/5/6, increasing capacitor size, and changing the rep duration bonus to a fighter tracking speed.
NanoBread New Age Solutions	Posted - 2007.04.09 15:58:00 - [118] lol Waxau Originally by: Waxau A thanatos tanks better than a chimera Give the chimeras more love! No one like Minmitar carriers :P
GC13 Caldari Derelik Trading Company	Posted - 2007.04.09 16:00:00 - [119] That's more an issue with sensor dampners being overpowered... If they were affected by the ship's sensor strength as well, the naturally high sensor strength of a carrier would render them less effective, therefore allowing the Nidhoggur to serve its role better (as well as keeping sensor dampners from being so danged lame). -- Science and Industry guide plus A Newbie's Guide to Caldari Ships Eve and RPG blog
Plymer Ization Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.04.09 16:14:00 - [120] Originally by: GC13 That's more an issue with sensor dampners being overpowered... If they were affected by the ship's sensor strength as well, the naturally high sensor strength of a carrier would render them less effective, therefore allowing the Nidhoggur to serve its role better (as well as keeping sensor dampners from being so danged lame). Indeed, entirely different (and huge) can of worms... I was just trying to play the devils advocate and re-rail the thread from definite flammage and retardation...
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.09 17:45:00 - [121] I dont see why you're making light of what i said Elad, because unlike SOME ive tested it on SiSi and have actually got evidence to prove the thanatos tanks better than the chimera. But laugh if you like :) You having it as your sig, just makes everyone see you're an idiot, not just those in this thread lol.
Kedor Minmatar Universal Army	Posted - 2007.04.09 19:04:00 - [122] Something will be done about Carriers. It's hinted at here. Tux answer to a boost nid thread Just lean back and wait for Factional Warfare to come along. Hopefully some changes will be in there.
Neji Boro	Posted - 2007.04.09 20:38:00 - [123] Originally by: Elad (Big long hunk of text from post 91, removed due to character limit) Counter to your first point: You're the one who said it was better/not better. I'm just pointing out contradictions in your argument. To the second: Why can't you test it yourself and tell us if it is or not? You're the only one who really has a conflicting viewpoint, and . Oh, and I seem to remember mentioning that the fittings are varied and have similar effects between the two slots. If you're going to say the Nidhoggur isn't gimped in that respect because it "can" fit to have better cap, you should realize that it can fit for what it actually needs to fill its role, at the expense of tank. The other carriers can provide both a lot more easily. You should know that, seeing as you seem to be an expert on all things carrier(and knowing exactly what CCP wants from them). Originally by: Elad Don't try to blame you limited intelligence capacity on someone else because your warped view of this topic somehow turned into a race discussion. Keep it to the 4 carrier discussions. Um, again, you were the one who typed it the way it was. I wasn't turning it into a race discussion, I was interpreting your horrible grammar as a race discussion. Originally by: Elad You keep ignoring the fact that the Minmitar carrier heals more in a shorter amount of time. It doesn't matter if other carriers can run the rep longer, they are repairing less in the same amount of time. Which makes the Minmitar carrier the support ship and more useful. No, actually, it's one of my main points, in that it's not a bonus as much as it is a tradeoff. Burning out 25% faster to get out that extra 25% speed would be useful if it could be maintained constantly, but it only repairs the same amount if the Nidhoggur can last AND use it nonstop for at least 80% of the time any other carrier could use it.(Also assuming that the carrier is level V) Originally by: Elad A shield tanking Minmitar carrier is far better than a armor tanking Thanatos. Originally by: Elad Take a basic math class before posting next time. Problem is, you're forgetting the rest of the equation. It may include w[Transfers](x[Speed] * y[Amount]) = z[Effect], but you need c[Cap] = a[Regen] - (b[Tanking] + z) to really fill it out. That's what this is all about; the fact that it drains extra, and simply makes z lower, because c fails since it can't keep up with b if it's any moderate value, or w if it's any decent value, due to x being increased by 25% and having a low starting value for c. Is that too complex for you? For the sake of everyone here, I'll give you an example of why what you're saying is dumb. Let's imagine you have an Amarr ship. Now, they use up their cap for both their high slots and tank, correct? Now, imagine that you suddenly give an RoF bonus to a ship with a relatively weak capacitor for its class. Awesome, right? It can use some more cap modules if it can't keep up with its own weapons. But wait, that decreases tank! They can't do much damage if they have to warp out right away, can they? Darn, I guess they'd have to just toggle their weapons on and off.... but doesn't that defeat the point of having the bonus in the first place? HEY LOOK, PERFECT METAPHOR. :D Of course, you'll dismiss what I say A) with some nonsense about a tiny strawman point, like usual, B) by saying that you completely support simply increasing the bonus(despite poor attempts at countering my arguments as to why the Nidhoggur is doing poorly as a support ship, and then repeated attempts at leading everyone to believe that you're actually supporting THE EXACT SAME THING I'M TALKING ABOUT even though you troll everyone who talks about it.), or C) By ignoring the logic and pasting the same argument again. So, until you actually bring in something other than "25% RoF increases amount per second by 25%, therefore it is stronger", I'm going to copy and paste a response again and again.
Ahz	Posted - 2007.04.10 01:00:00 - [124] Sorry to see such an excellent post given over to flaming. I'd vote for fighter speed and tracking bonuses. It makes the Nidhi unique and gives it an interesting new role to play. Plus it fits with the general light, swift hit-and-run philosophy of the race. Jump range would simply turn it into the 0.0 jump hauler of choice (until CCP creates a true jump hauler). Thanks again GC13. Many props for pulling this together.
c0rn1 Seraphin Technologies S.E.R.A	Posted - 2007.04.10 08:44:00 - [125] bump, because the nid needs love and I'd like to have a dev answer to the suggestions made in here. The essence of this thread is worth an answer even people tried to derail it. Regards c0rn1 x x x x x x x x x x x x x x Life's a waste of time ...
Aife Zinen	Posted - 2007.04.10 11:41:00 - [126] At least give the Nid a bit more CPU ;)
R3dSh1ft Caldari FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.10 11:42:00 - [127] Signed specifically for the nidhoggur but also for the other carriers too. Balance them! sort out fitting issues (cpu on the chimera and phoenix!) make it fun to fly them in fleet ______________________________________
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.04.10 11:48:00 - [128] Edited by: Pan Crastus on 10/04/2007 11:47:20 Originally by: Ahz I'd vote for fighter speed and tracking bonuses. It makes the Nidhi unique and gives it an interesting new role to play. Plus it fits with the general light, swift hit-and-run philosophy of the race. As long as all the other carriers can tank 2-5 times the amount of DPS (with realistic fittings), this is still not enough of an incentive for putting a Nidhoggur on the front line... From the base stats, all other Tier-1 carriers could probably outtank a Hel too using similar modules (but noone in their right mind would fit a Hel with T2 mods). What would boost the Nidhoggur in a "neutral" way would be very useful medium slot modules for Carriers, for example a Fighter damage mod or something similar. Then the fact that it can just still armor tank and fit more of those modules than other tanked carriers at the same time, would boost it a bit.
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.10 11:53:00 - [129] Originally by: Pan Crastus Edited by: Pan Crastus on 10/04/2007 11:47:20 Originally by: Ahz I'd vote for fighter speed and tracking bonuses. It makes the Nidhi unique and gives it an interesting new role to play. Plus it fits with the general light, swift hit-and-run philosophy of the race. As long as all the other carriers can tank 2-5 times the amount of DPS (with realistic fittings), this is still not enough of an incentive for putting a Nidhoggur on the front line... From the base stats, all other Tier-1 carriers could probably outtank a Hel too using similar modules (but noone in their right mind would fit a Hel with T2 mods). What would boost the Nidhoggur in a "neutral" way would be very useful medium slot modules for Carriers, for example a Fighter damage mod or something similar. Then the fact that it can just still armor tank and fit more of those modules than other tanked carriers at the same time, would boost it a bit. Tbh.....if anyone thinks a Hel can tank better than a carrier, is foolish :) Hel can have a better tank than a Wyvern even (trust me...seen it).
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.04.10 12:54:00 - [130] Originally by: Waxau Hel can have a better tank than a Wyvern even (trust me...seen it). No, it can't. Unless you're trying to say "a properly fitted Hel can tank better than a badly fitted Wyvern". If you are claiming that a Hel can tank better with modules of the same class, proof or STFU ;-) (list of fittings)
Jurushy SteelVipers YouWhat	Posted - 2007.04.10 15:28:00 - [131] well the minmatar race doctrien is damage right? remove the remote bonus and give is 1 turret per carrier level i want to fit 5 XL autocannons on my nid YARRR!!! ------ REVENGE IS A DISH BEST SERVED COLD Old Klingon prover
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.10 15:56:00 - [132] Edited by: Waxau on 10/04/2007 15:58:44 Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Waxau Hel can have a better tank than a Wyvern even (trust me...seen it). No, it can't. Unless you're trying to say "a properly fitted Hel can tank better than a badly fitted Wyvern". If you are claiming that a Hel can tank better with modules of the same class, proof or STFU ;-) (list of fittings) the proof is ive tested them. Both t2 and faction setups. You dont have to believe me, but i give you only the facts. Ps - i fly caldari carriers, and you dont see me asking for a boost, which will just go to reinforce im not trying to get caldari boosted either) Nid's can tank fine, except the cap problems. What the problem is, is its bonuses. On a better note, if we compare the general ethos of all races, Gallente are drone spec'd (despite stories of caldari inventing fighters yada yada). Hence the damage bonus is legit. Caldari are tankers generally, as are amarr (What else do they have going for em eh? ^^) Minnie however are going to always be the odd ones out. Their main advantage is usually alpha strike, and versatility. However, that cant really be put onto carriers too easily. So my suggestion is the following. It needs a unique bonus. One any other race wouldnt ever have. Yet not be so overpowered, people will flock to the nid. Extended Ship Bay maybe? If its truely a logistics ship, then instead of giving it an unfair bonus of 'jump distance' (no offence to the one who suggested it), the extra cargo bay, will NOT boost general 'take this from 0.0, that to empire' and so on, but also general pvp. Whether its carrying ammo, or spare ships, or just hauling around crap. It also therefore achieves the goal of 'Minnie have to use a module to gain anything from their bonuses. However, some may prefer the jump range, but i can see that being a tad overpowered, compared to all capital ships in general.
Plymer Ization Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.04.11 05:19:00 - [133] The Nidhoggur deserves better than the 3rd page. Bump!
Victor Ivanov Minmatar Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.11 14:33:00 - [134] I shall bump this for no better reason than being Minmatar. Yarr! ----------------------
Victor Ivanov Minmatar Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.11 14:33:00 - [135] I shall bump this for no better reason than being Minmatar. Yarr! ----------------------
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.11 15:16:00 - [136] I shall bump it for no other reason than i was told to! Yarrbbq
Liisa Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.04.11 17:09:00 - [137] As somebody who will soon be in a Minmatar carrier (once I get the isk together for one) I would really like the "support" bonus to be changed to one which reduces the cap need of remote armor and shield transfers. This would satisfy both sides of the flaming we have had. It keeps the "support" bonus while making the bonus actually useful. Of course it would need to be more than 5% per level. My personal vote would be for either 7.5 or 10%, anything but the time reduction bonus which is so minimal that it is almost a non-issue. ----------------------------------
Ethion Amoral Self Promoters	Posted - 2007.04.11 19:37:00 - [138] Signed BOOST THE NIDDY!!!
JForce Black Lance NBSI Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.12 00:44:00 - [139] Originally by: Waxau Edited by: Waxau on 10/04/2007 15:58:44 Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Waxau Hel can have a better tank than a Wyvern even (trust me...seen it). No, it can't. Unless you're trying to say "a properly fitted Hel can tank better than a badly fitted Wyvern". If you are claiming that a Hel can tank better with modules of the same class, proof or STFU ;-) (list of fittings) the proof is ive tested them. Both t2 and faction setups. You dont have to believe me, but i give you only the facts. Ps - i fly caldari carriers, and you dont see me asking for a boost, which will just go to reinforce im not trying to get caldari boosted either) Wax can you elaborate on this please? How exactly can a Hel out-tank a Wyvern? Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Pesadel0 Ordem dos Templarios Te-Ka	Posted - 2007.04.12 08:29:00 - [140] Originally by: JForce Originally by: Waxau Edited by: Waxau on 10/04/2007 15:58:44 Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Waxau Hel can have a better tank than a Wyvern even (trust me...seen it). No, it can't. Unless you're trying to say "a properly fitted Hel can tank better than a badly fitted Wyvern". If you are claiming that a Hel can tank better with modules of the same class, proof or STFU ;-) (list of fittings) the proof is ive tested them. Both t2 and faction setups. You dont have to believe me, but i give you only the facts. Ps - i fly caldari carriers, and you dont see me asking for a boost, which will just go to reinforce im not trying to get caldari boosted either) Wax can you elaborate on this please? How exactly can a Hel out-tank a Wyvern? It cant. I was sworn to absolute secrecy BY CCP.
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.12 09:42:00 - [141] Oh im sorry - Have you flown them? No? Thought so. With maxed skills, and the setup a hel can achieve, the extra resist bonuses of the chimera mean squat.
Amy Wang	Posted - 2007.04.12 10:12:00 - [142] Maybe he means that a officer fitted Hel can outtank a t1 fitted Wyvern, which could be true :P Anyway, great work GC13 with this thread. Regarding the Dev answer, I just hope that they remember when they change/boost all carriers to change/boost the Nid considerably more then the rest as it deserves.
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.04.12 10:16:00 - [143] Originally by: Waxau Oh im sorry - Have you flown them? No? Thought so. With maxed skills, and the setup a hel can achieve, the extra resist bonuses of the chimera mean squat. List of fittings or STFU ;-)
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.12 11:50:00 - [144] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Waxau Oh im sorry - Have you flown them? No? Thought so. With maxed skills, and the setup a hel can achieve, the extra resist bonuses of the chimera mean squat. List of fittings or STFU ;-) How bout you STFU and stop trying to derail a perfectly good thread eh? Bloody nubtard Dont have to trust me - cos quite frankly, i dont give a ****
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.04.12 13:23:00 - [145] Edited by: Pan Crastus on 12/04/2007 13:21:43 Originally by: Waxau How bout you STFU and stop trying to derail a perfectly good thread eh? Bloody nubtard Dont have to trust me - cos quite frankly, i dont give a ** Well, everyone who has ever tried to fit a Carrier knows that your claim is bull**, so how about you own up to it? Boasting with how you have flown MS on Sisi and calling people "nubtarts" doesn't change the facts that anyone can verify for himself, you're just making yourself look stupid by flaming after posting such crap. But why do I bother, you're just a troll and everyone knows why you are not going to post your magical fittings ...
Waxau Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.12 13:36:00 - [146] Firstly, ive been posting here giving points on why i think the nidhogger is needing a boost - How is that trolling? Secondly, the so called 'BS' that i post here i know for fact isnt. But you dont have to believe, same goes for anyone else. Infact you can call me what the heck you like, cos its no skin off my teeth. But keep on derailing mate - You're doing a good job. And ps - You really expect me to remember a setup for a ship i flew ONCE over half a year ago?
Victor Ivanov Minmatar Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.12 14:38:00 - [147] Quite a bit more than half a year ago matey. Also, Wax has been defending this topic from the childish pranks of Elad for 4 pages...Calling him a troll makes absolutely no sense. What could be possible is that simply Maxed out Armour repair skills are more effective than Maxed out Shield skills. I'm not entirely sure, but that might be a factor in why Wax claims the Hel had a better tank. shrugs Anyway, we had 4 pages of Elad trolling, and now we have a swiftly derailing topic talking about wyvern vs hel. :) An intriguing discussion, I'm sure, but I would beseech everyone to maintain the civil attitude in this particular thread, especially since it was posted at the request of a dev. :) ----------------------
Kahor Minmatar Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.04.12 18:30:00 - [148] Man, just the topic I wanted to start, was looking into getting in a nidhoggur, read the description...oh crap, that's useless, it takes soo long to lock a friendly, that by the time he is locked, if he is not dead, a 5% speed factor of repping per level is not gonna change much, unless it's a capital ship, then the only real issue is not the speed but the cap, which make the bonus even more useless. The extra tracking seems to be the best idea for me, it will help the minmatar carrier shine in small engagement a bit, while providing few to no advantages in fleet battles (where targets are webbed and often targetpainted anyway, or are just BSs or above anyway). Consider it a free bump ---------------- An eye for an eye make a whole world blind. snip, do not evade the word filter with your sig. Email [email protected] for more information. -HornFrog
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.12 19:58:00 - [149] Originally by: Victor Ivanov Quite a bit more than half a year ago matey. Also, Wax has been defending this topic from the childish pranks of Elad for 4 pages...Calling him a troll makes absolutely no sense. What could be possible is that simply Maxed out Armour repair skills are more effective than Maxed out Shield skills. I'm not entirely sure, but that might be a factor in why Wax claims the Hel had a better tank. shrugs Anyway, we had 4 pages of Elad trolling, and now we have a swiftly derailing topic talking about wyvern vs hel. :) An intriguing discussion, I'm sure, but I would beseech everyone to maintain the civil attitude in this particular thread, especially since it was posted at the request of a dev. :) I am going to go out on a limb and say that the cap need of capital sized repair/booster modules combined with the inability of capital pilots to fit effective low slot capacitor regenerating items combined with the high base capacitor and regen of carries and the need of mid slot items such as sensor boosters allows the armor tanking ships to utilizie more of their tanking slots for tank. While the armor tankers can load up on capacitor mods in order to sustain their tank while having more available slots. When the mids/lows of a wyvern might look like CSBI/SBAII/INV/INV/EMhard/Sensor Booster II/CRII x 2 DCII/PDS x 4 the mids/lows of a Thanatos or Nyx will look like Sensor Booster II/ CRII x 4 CARI x 2/EANM/EANM/DC/EX Hard or CARI x 2/ex hard/kin hard/ therm hard/ EANM/EANM[or DC] for the nyx. The Nyx/Thanatos is much more cap stable in this manner which is what breaks the deal. A wyvern ought to be able to make a better spider tank or passive tank[Via HP buffer, regen will be terrible] ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Ryysa North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.12 20:25:00 - [150] Originally by: Goumindong A wyvern ought to be able to make a better spider tank or passive tank[Via HP buffer, regen will be terrible] I just figured out what would make Pottsey giggle like a schoolgirl N.F.F. Recruitment
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.13 02:42:00 - [151] Originally by: Ryysa Originally by: Goumindong A wyvern ought to be able to make a better spider tank or passive tank[Via HP buffer, regen will be terrible] I just figured out what would make Pottsey giggle like a schoolgirl From what i can tell its not actualy that strong[best I can get is something like 700 dps max regen on the Caldari Titan[900 on the Avatar, resists not factored into the caldari regen number], but if remote shield boosters arent affected by CPRs' then an entirely passive tank could do ok since a spider tank wouldnt be hampered by cap with CRPS in the lows where a capital shield booster is ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Foulis Minmatar Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.04.13 04:59:00 - [152] Quote: Next you'll be comlaining because the Nagflar does more dmg but doesn't tank as well as the other dreadnaughts... Uhh, last I checked, the Naglfar comes in 2nd or third for damage. ---- Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari NO WORDS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE ARE SPELLED WITH THE NUMBER "8" IN THEM GODDAMNIT!
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2007.04.13 08:19:00 - [153] yikes - already too much to read just wanted to throw in that the minnie way of "small in fast" just doesnt work beyond cruiser anymore (well.. the phoon sometimes manages) while the rest of the stats remains in line aka inferior. but maybe passive shield tanking could be picked up again with an (X)XL extender (which would then be hijacked by caldari again... i know... bad idea)
Altar Mei Solstice Systems Development Concourse SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.13 12:30:00 - [154] Soylent Green is made out of people. Bumpage... when will you let us in on the capital ship master plan?
Kahor Minmatar Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.04.14 11:57:00 - [155] back on topie, and on page one ---------------- An eye for an eye make a whole world blind. snip, do not evade the word filter with your sig. Email [email protected] for more information. -HornFrog
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.04.14 13:16:00 - [156] Nicely written thread. One of the better ones Ive seen. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Red Crown Kudzu Collective	Posted - 2007.04.14 15:25:00 - [157] The way I see it, a Minmatar carrier's job would be this : Jump in Deploy Fighters Have a solid short term shield tank Let the fighters get in quickly, do damage, reel them in Jump out Nidd's role is: Jump in Deploy Fighters Hope it doesn't get primaried Watch in horror as it can't lock fast enough to repair ??? *Win The Nidd either needs to go fully support or go combat. Increased FTL range, increased cargo capacity, increased capacitor, higher scan res OR it needs to be hit and run - Higher Tracking/Velocity on its fighters with an extra high slot to fit another drone link, but with the same tanking layout. The way I see it, Thanatos gets the direct damage bonus, Chimera/Archon get the tankign bonus, Nidd gets the indirect damage bonus. "EVE is the worst MMORPG. Except for all the other ones." [KUDZU] = Coalition.
Ariel Dawn SniggWaffe Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.04.14 19:09:00 - [158] Originally by: Foulis Quote: Next you'll be comlaining because the Nagflar does more dmg but doesn't tank as well as the other dreadnaughts... Uhh, last I checked, the Naglfar comes in 2nd or third for damage. Assuming max skills before damage mods, a 2 Arty 2 Siege Nagalfar has the lowest DPS of all the Dreadnoughts (but 2nd highest alpha). Using Autocannons its 2nd best, quite a bit better.
Styx Alundar Gallente ICE is Coming to EVE Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.04.16 09:32:00 - [159] Nice and constructive thread. Needs Dev Input I assume !? Cheers ! Styx
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.04.16 09:57:00 - [160] Originally by: Ariel Dawn Assuming max skills before damage mods, a 2 Arty 2 Siege Nagalfar has the lowest DPS of all the Dreadnoughts (but 2nd highest alpha). Using Autocannons its 2nd best, quite a bit better. Yep now we just need to make POSes smaller or a capital MWD so the AC setup isn't totally pointless...
Boci The Legion. Requiem-Aeternam	Posted - 2007.04.20 12:09:00 - [161] Fix mai ship! \o/
GC13 Caldari Derelik Trading Company	Posted - 2007.04.22 05:21:00 - [162] You know, I went and gave the devs a pretty summary of thoughts, and I don't even get a gold bar for my thread... -- Science and Industry guide plus A Newbie's Guide to Caldari Ships Eve and RPG blog
Waxau Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.04.22 17:36:00 - [163] Well your summary gets a Gold Star...There ya go! ♥ Er..its a black heart, couldnt find a Gold star
hilaw	Posted - 2007.04.22 19:55:00 - [164] I'd like to support both the Nidhoggour needs a boost, even though I don't fly it, as well as point out that Elad could probably do with a little more contemplation of the situation
Kaylana Syi The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.23 14:43:00 - [165] As long as it is a logistic bonus the nidhoggur will be the bastard of carriers. The ONLY thing it has going for it is that it has a bigger drone bay than the caldari and amarr and a bigger cargo hold over the amarr. The Thanatos has biggest drone bay ( 2 extra fighters worth over minmatar and 4 over the amarr/caldari ) a bonus that effectively extends the drone bay AND in-combat performance. And it has the ability to jump farther since it can hold the most fuel. If the nidhoggur has to have the weakest hull and put into it the logistics role then it should get 4000m/3 of cargo space. Then it needs to get a cap reduction on its logistics bonus. Then it needs to get its drone bay upped to 100k m/3. Team Minmatar
Taurevanime	Posted - 2007.04.23 15:59:00 - [166] I did some looking at the stats and found a curious difference between the carriers, that of the sensor strength and targeting range. The Nid has the lowest sensor strength compared to the other carriers and also the lowest max targetting range and the highest sensor resolution. Not too sure of what the effect would be, but I figure being the most easilly jammed, have the longest targetting time and the shortest range would be a little silly I figure. Let me hear what the experts have to say of this.
Kaylana Syi The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.23 17:44:00 - [167] Originally by: Taurevanime I did some looking at the stats and found a curious difference between the carriers, that of the sensor strength and targeting range. The Nid has the lowest sensor strength compared to the other carriers and also the lowest max targetting range and the highest sensor resolution. Not too sure of what the effect would be, but I figure being the most easilly jammed, have the longest targetting time and the shortest range would be a little silly I figure. Let me hear what the experts have to say of this. It means that this ship is a pile of junk for a revelations patch nurse ship. Team Minmatar
haq aan	Posted - 2007.04.23 18:46:00 - [168] There is truth in this thread. Excellent A free BUMP for the love of Nidhoggur. haq aan Omega Enterprices - D2
Alviarin Minmatar Bleak Cabal Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.23 21:22:00 - [169] [general religious outcry of joy and acceptance] ...on that subject, whats the outcry for atheists?
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.04.24 10:14:00 - [170] I sold my Nidhoggur. Perhaps all Nid owners should do the same - it's not hard to train for a Thanatos instead (about a month and 450m isk), perhaps the AWOL devs will some day realize that hardly anyone is flying this useless Carrier anymore...
sariss Deaf Dumb Blind	Posted - 2007.04.24 11:19:00 - [171] Originally by: GC13 [list] A personal tanking bonus - A suggested 5% reduction in capital shield booster capacitor use bonus was the most popular one here, but it should be pointed out that a 7.5% boost amount bonus would be more fitting with the Minmatar line of bonuses (as well as be a better bonus in terms of shields/capacitor). Whoever invented shieldboost-bonus for Minmatar tech1 ships.. a) has most likely never flown Minmatar ships himself b) has most likely never done PVP c) is an Amarr fanboy d) likes running missions CCP likes to state that the ships are designed around the roleplaying aspect of EVE, but what sense is in giving Minmatar shieldtanks with a base resist of 0(em)/20(therm) against amarrian lasers? Not to mention the tiny cap and the usual slotlayout making proper shieldtanks on tech 1 ships almost impossible without seriously crippling the ships use in PVP (sensorbooster, EW, web, scram, mwd.....+ tank on 5 to 6 meds?) On the other hand, if the DEVs will ever come up with something different than a shieldboost bonus the it will surely be a painting bonus...
Frools Chaos Reborn 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.04.24 11:23:00 - [172] Originally by: sariss what sense is in giving Minmatar shieldtanks with a base resist of 0(em)/20(therm) against amarrian lasers? you mean like how amarr armour tank and have base armour resist of 20% to explosive?
Amy Wang	Posted - 2007.04.24 13:11:00 - [173] Edited by: Amy Wang on 24/04/2007 13:09:17 Originally by: Frools Originally by: sariss what sense is in giving Minmatar shieldtanks with a base resist of 0(em)/20(therm) against amarrian lasers? you mean like how amarr armour tank and have base armour resist of 20% to explosive? 20% explosive + 25% kinetic = 45% 0% em + 20% thermal = 20% 20% < 45%, at least where I come from Obviously its a problem the devs want to force minmatar more and more into shield tanking only ot get a better shield tanker vs armor tanker ratio in the game. Problem is they dont give the proper tools to make it even remotely viable for the majority of ships. Caldari have a superior tanking bonus on their tank-bonus ships and on top of that get more slots to tank with in most cases. Moreover missile ships dont need more then a scram for pvp while projectile ships need a web as well, thats another slot less to tank with right there. The only ships where shieldtanking with those figures is worth considering in pvp are the t2 ships as they get useful well rounded resists which make up for the lack of slots. (but then again amarr gets well rounded armor resists on their t2 ships and a nice number of slots, so thats not really an argument either) CCP should totally abandon the idea of shield tanking minmatar t1 ships or give them sufficient slots to do it with which would be one more med then the comparable caldari ship of the same class. Id rather have them abandon it altogether tho. The Nid is better of armor tanked normally, maybe with a 7th med slot and a capital shield boost bonus (which is still inferior to the 5% resist per lvl bonus) one could consider shield tanking it. An additional low slot would certainly help it armor tanking but unless the other shortcoming of the ships arent fixed it should come at the expense of a med slot. 5/6/6 layout seems acceptable if the crappy cap is there to stay combined with a revamp of the remote repair bonus to 7,5% effectiveness per level alternatively a 5/7/5 layout with a boost bonus would also do, or even a 5/7/4 layout with boost bonus if the cap is also increased
Kaylana Syi The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.24 15:10:00 - [174] Originally by: sariss Originally by: GC13 [list] A personal tanking bonus - A suggested 5% reduction in capital shield booster capacitor use bonus was the most popular one here, but it should be pointed out that a 7.5% boost amount bonus would be more fitting with the Minmatar line of bonuses (as well as be a better bonus in terms of shields/capacitor). Whoever invented shieldboost-bonus for Minmatar tech1 ships.. a) has most likely never flown Minmatar ships himself b) has most likely never done PVP c) is an Amarr fanboy d) likes running missions CCP likes to state that the ships are designed around the roleplaying aspect of EVE, but what sense is in giving Minmatar shieldtanks with a base resist of 0(em)/20(therm) against amarrian lasers? Not to mention the tiny cap and the usual slotlayout making proper shieldtanks on tech 1 ships almost impossible without seriously crippling the ships use in PVP (sensorbooster, EW, web, scram, mwd.....+ tank on 5 to 6 meds?) On the other hand, if the DEVs will ever come up with something different than a shieldboost bonus the it will surely be a painting bonus... Actually the maelstrom shield boost bonus is hawt for autocannons. It just stinks for artillery. My maelstrom saw all kinds of combat from 50 on 50 fleet fights, roaming gank squads, gate camps, Titan DDs and having swarms of fighters on me. Anyone saying the Shield boost bonus has no place on matari ships is a fool. Its just the Maelstrom was built for Artillery and NOT autocannons although thats its best role atm. I would shield tank the nighoggur if it had this bonus and I'd certainly have to train Tact. Shield manipulation to 5. I armor tank all minmatar capitals I have owned. Quite frankly, you don't know what your talking about. Team Minmatar
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2007.04.26 09:20:00 - [175] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Originally by: sariss Originally by: GC13 [list] A personal tanking bonus - A suggested 5% reduction in capital shield booster capacitor use bonus was the most popular one here, but it should be pointed out that a 7.5% boost amount bonus would be more fitting with the Minmatar line of bonuses (as well as be a better bonus in terms of shields/capacitor). Whoever invented shieldboost-bonus for Minmatar tech1 ships.. a) has most likely never flown Minmatar ships himself b) has most likely never done PVP c) is an Amarr fanboy d) likes running missions CCP likes to state that the ships are designed around the roleplaying aspect of EVE, but what sense is in giving Minmatar shieldtanks with a base resist of 0(em)/20(therm) against amarrian lasers? Not to mention the tiny cap and the usual slotlayout making proper shieldtanks on tech 1 ships almost impossible without seriously crippling the ships use in PVP (sensorbooster, EW, web, scram, mwd.....+ tank on 5 to 6 meds?) On the other hand, if the DEVs will ever come up with something different than a shieldboost bonus the it will surely be a painting bonus... Actually the maelstrom shield boost bonus is hawt for autocannons. It just stinks for artillery. My maelstrom saw all kinds of combat from 50 on 50 fleet fights, roaming gank squads, gate camps, Titan DDs and having swarms of fighters on me. Anyone saying the Shield boost bonus has no place on matari ships is a fool. Its just the Maelstrom was built for Artillery and NOT autocannons although thats its best role atm. I would shield tank the nighoggur if it had this bonus and I'd certainly have to train Tact. Shield manipulation to 5. I armor tank all minmatar capitals I have owned. Quite frankly, you don't know what your talking about. The thing is kay, a 7.5% shield boost bonus on the hog/hel wouldnt be as good as the 5% resist on the chimera/wyvern. First because it would only be slightly better for effective hp/sec, second because it wouldnt get anywhere near as much benefit from remote transfer, third because, afaik, shield transfers are less common than armor ones, fourth because in laggy environments, especially with shield tanks, you wont want to be running it constantly unless you have a really pimped setup. Plus a shield tank takes away from your required sensor boosters... and not everyone shield tanks a hog because it just isnt as effective, the slot layout is just crap. The capacitor is too weak for a shield tank, too. By the way, a 5% tracking bonus would SUCK. It wouldn't be any better than the 5%dmg on the thanatos, because even against smaller stuff, the thanatos fighters may hit less but they will hit better, and against larger stuff it would be kind of pointless. The velocity bonus idea is terrible too... what could possibly be the use of faster fighters? guomindang makes some very good points earlier about how the resist bonuses on the archon make it better than the hog for even remote repping, sicne your own ship is important too, not just others. I'd personally like to see either a huge remote ransfer amount bonus (15% amount per level or so would make it worth it imo, short of that, the lack of tank makes it not worth it still), or just a damn resist bonus. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
Amy Wang	Posted - 2007.04.26 11:46:00 - [176] Edited by: Amy Wang on 26/04/2007 11:48:33 I have to agree there, very valid points. Forcing the Nid to shield tank will give the ship the rest, they should really work on improving the remote support bonus while at the same time improving its armor tank (+1 slot) and cap amount. Plus another thing to consider: People chose the Nid for 3 reasons a) because they wanted a ship with a bonus to supporting their gangmates b) because they had minni bs 5 and didnt want to train another race c) looks only (very few I suppose) While b) and c) arent really concerned with any fundamental role changes to the ship, a) are basivally screwed over if the support bonus is changed to a tanking one and I guess a) makes up a fair bit of the Nids pilots.
Taurevanime	Posted - 2007.04.26 14:59:00 - [177] It should also really get to see an increase in it's capacitor ammount. To make it's tanking closer on par with other carriers. Or even just it's remote tanking. Cap is life afterall.
GC13 Caldari Derelik Trading Company	Posted - 2007.04.28 16:09:00 - [178] So I've received a black heart, but no gold bars, eh? Well, a black heart will have to do. Guess this means I need to get back to 0.0, eh? -- Science and Industry guide plus A Newbie's Guide to Caldari Ships Eve and RPG blog
Victor Ivanov Minmatar Liberty Rogues Insomnia.	Posted - 2007.05.15 15:06:00 - [179] With the possible addition of the triage module, this needed to be bumped. Bump nidhoggur! ----------------------
Amy Wang	Posted - 2007.05.18 04:29:00 - [180] Edited by: Amy Wang on 18/05/2007 04:27:03 No Nid changes on SiSi so far. Triage module helps all carriers to do their job at the frontline but the Nid is still far inferior in comparison to the other three. This must not be fogotten, fix the Nid !
rus6	Posted - 2007.05.18 08:08:00 - [181] Would be really nice if it gets a decent bonus... At the moment there's is no good reason to choose it over the other carriers. I guess at a push its the quickest to recharge pos shields in a bad situation.. I bought mine because I have all the minnie ships and it looks nice :) But tbh if I was more sound in the head I would have bought in any other carrier in preference...
Night Tripper	Posted - 2007.05.18 08:27:00 - [182] has anyone crunched the numbers for how triage mode may affect the usefulness of the bonus?
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.18 08:44:00 - [183] I dont understand why minmatar always takes years to fix. Like with the typhoon. Is it really that difficult to just slap a decent bonus on there, without making the ship overpowered? Im having difficulties understanding why it must take years. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Liam Fremen Gallente Global Isk Network NBSI Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.18 08:51:00 - [184] I Own a Nidhoggur, i fly it daily and i tryed to use it at best on small/medium engagements even cynoing inside fights or using suicidal cyno frigs. This ship is actually sub-par to the other carriers, few to add on it, it has the weakest tank, it has the weakest capacitator, the weakest bonus for fighting.... and 20% (carrier 4) bonus on remote shield/armor could help but the repped amount is so big that even without it the result would have been the same. I would realy love to have the same stats even but a tracking speed bonus on fighters, it would realy make the ship "different" in the behavior of minmatars ships. Unitevi alla crociata contro gli sfigati di EvE, gli AESC!
Pesadel0 Ordem dos Templarios	Posted - 2007.05.18 10:17:00 - [185] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 18/05/2007 08:53:22 I dont understand why minmatar always takes years to fix. Like with the typhoon. Is it really that difficult to just slap a decent bonus on there, without making the ship overpowered? Im having difficulties understanding why it must take years. We are talking carriers here. A ship that people train for years to get. Then its very important that people WANT to train for it. Same feeling here. I was sworn to absolute secrecy BY CCP.
Finlander09	Posted - 2007.05.18 16:44:00 - [186] I want fix badly. Its like HEL"l" . worthles bonus. fix fix fix plz
Amy Wang	Posted - 2007.05.24 18:20:00 - [187] Edited by: Amy Wang on 24/05/2007 18:22:27 A first step has been taken on SiSi to fix the Nid: 5% bonus to Shield and Armor transfer amount per level This is at least something, of course it can only be a first step in balancing the Nid. It fixes the old "bonus to drain your cap faster" problem, but now the actual boost bonus is weaker then the cycle time bonus in terms of hp/sec, so it needs to be 7,5% per level as every ship based boost bonus is for a good reason. The extremely weak cap and bad tanking options remain a problem and should be adressed. Personally I have little hope for a slot layout change, but upping the cap amount to the level of the archon would be ok, would make the Nid the king of logistics, which is at least a unique role. Devs, you are not done with the Nid, dont you dare to think for a second you are ;)
GC13 Caldari FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.25 16:38:00 - [188] Well, at least the Nidhoggur is getting a little bit of love. Of course the devs shouldn't stop there... To be honest, a dual cycle time reduction (10%)/capacitor use reduction (15%) would be entertaining. Just TRY and kill my gangmate! -- Science and Industry guide plus A Newbie's Guide to Caldari Ships Eve and RPG blog
Rehmes	Posted - 2007.05.25 17:33:00 - [189] In line with matar philosophy of skirmishes rather than full blown fleets duking it out, i would much rather see the carrier lineup of the matars get a fighter speed/tracking bonus. It would make them better than other carriers for fighting smaller ships while becoming less effective against bigger ships (where the thanatos dmg bonus would be better for). I personnaly dont see this as overpowered as in the case of dreads the moros is by far the best dread for taking out smaller ships while the other dreads seem to outperform it in actual sieges. As it stands nid/hel tank less than their counterparts but thats usually the case in the other classes (xcept maybe the ruppie and mael). It doesnt have to be a full blown 7.5% bonus could be 5% but we do have a test server so testing could be done with different approaches. On the other hand seeing as carriers are capitals (thus in many cases ruling out skirmishes as youll be facing fleets) i wouldnt mind the nid/hel remaining logistic ships but with a 7.5% rep amount and increased cap.
Soren PAK	Posted - 2007.05.26 22:26:00 - [190] Edited by: Soren on 26/05/2007 22:26:11 quote from http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=525826&page=1#5 This shows the number of pilots that fly the ships (according the www.ineve.net) Originally by: Ray McCormack Updated numbers in. Took 6 hours. Mothership Nyx (329) Aeon (208) Wyvern (184) Hel (81) Doesn't that tell you something CCP? fix it please!!! ☠-->-->--
Valdor Hag Fairlight Corp FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2007.05.27 10:56:00 - [191] Well I stopped waiting, will take me about 30 days to get Gallante BS to 5. Much shorter time than waiting for CCP to fix the Nid. I was Minnie specked until a few days ago when I started with Gal frigs to lvl 4 currently running Gal cruiser to lvl 4. Luckily I have all the carrier skills trained as well as the support skills. This option is much quicker than waiting on CCP! IÆm still waiting for them to fix the Phoons armour and shields which should be swapped around but, now I will get a Dommie to boot.
Linkel Minmatar Back Home In Time For Tea And Medals The Volition Cult	Posted - 2007.05.28 11:13:00 - [192] I know CCP have a lot on their hands, but something like this really needs some serious looking into. It's a lot of investment placed onto the carrier, and we can't even use it properly. Sort this out CCP!! Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
SasRipper DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2007.05.28 14:09:00 - [193] Originally by: Amy Wang 5% bonus to Shield and Armor transfer amount per level With capital remote reps ammount isent really an issue, cap is however the bonous should be changed to 5%/7.5% reduced capacitor need of Shield and Armor transfers snip Sas has spoken this tread shall be locked.
Selak Zorander	Posted - 2007.05.28 15:16:00 - [194] Originally by: SasRipper Originally by: Amy Wang 5% bonus to Shield and Armor transfer amount per level With capital remote reps ammount isent really an issue, cap is however the bonous should be changed to 5%/7.5% reduced capacitor need of Shield and Armor transfers for minmatar, that is a cap use reduction though. before the cycle time bonus exact;y canceled out the cap reduction bonus from the capital remote armor rep skill. now, it actually gets that bonus (to match with the other carriers) so i will agree with those above to say it is a first step in the right direction.
Rania Serlia World Order The Imperial Order	Posted - 2007.05.28 16:16:00 - [195] 7.5% bonus to effectiveness of Skirmish Warfare Links per level. Instawin?
Finlander09	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:31:00 - [196] Good start but NID needs more =/
Plymer Ization Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.05.30 02:42:00 - [197] Moar boost!
Chode Rizoum Minmatar Temptation inc.	Posted - 2007.05.30 07:08:00 - [198] it seems to have a remote repair ammount bonus on test atm TEMPTATION INC. Killboard
Omatje Minmatar Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.05.30 10:33:00 - [199] Originally by: Chode Rizoum it seems to have a remote repair ammount bonus on test atm At least it might be a start after waiting for so damn long I got my skills ready for ages but refuse to train other races or board a Nid the way it is atm. got no cool sig
Linkel Minmatar Back Home In Time For Tea And Medals The Volition Cult	Posted - 2007.05.31 10:32:00 - [200] Thats right CCP, keep it coming. It's a shame this ship will never be truly useful in the battlefield, but at least make this thing worth the iskies investment!!! Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Capt Rob Minmatar Black Omega Security GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.31 11:06:00 - [201] aye i hope ccp continue and actually give the nidhoggur the love it deserves and not just palm off Triage Mode as the boost.
Victor Ivanov Minmatar Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.06.08 16:00:00 - [202] My friend has a Chimera and with standard t2 stuff, he has average resists of 85%, lowest resist being 83.5. My nidhoggur uses faction modules and has a lowest resist of 65% for explosive, due to the fact that a DMG control mod is truly integral for a ship with that much Hull points. Furthermore, the Chimera can do everything I do, because he has 400+ more capacitor, without any skills. (Skills will increase this amount exponentially) Furthermore, the Nidhoggur is the ONLY carrier that FORCES the pilot to put a specific module on their ship to make use of the ship bonus. Therefore, one could argue that a Nidhoggur pilot has 2 High slots less than other carriers, due to the fact that if we don't fit remote reppers, we aren't just the crappiest tanking one, the one with the least cap but we also have no bonuses to our ship. Other pilots could theoretically fit 5 neutralizers in their highs, or 5 DCU's if they wished, and still make use of their individual speciality. We don't have that luxury and are forced to fit remote reppers to be of any use. CCP, this NEEDS to change. Either make the bonus large enough to counter balance the lack of versatility (Which I always thought was one of the main charasteristics of the Minmatar?), or change the bonus entirely. And please read this and fix it soon, because waiting another 2 years for a nidhoggur fix would truly suck. You've seen the facts. You know the facts, because you created the game, and are therefore the highest level of expert around when it comes to ship statistics etc. Therefore, you KNOW the nidhoggur to be immensely underpowered. And since we know that you know, the only reason for it not being fixed seems to be that the imbalance in racial ships is done purposely. It is not a conclusion that makes sense in terms of fair gameplay, but according to Ockham's Razor, it is the most likely scenario in this particular case. So please CCP.. Use the opportunity that Revelations 2 offers you to actually fix the Nidhoggur once and for all, and erase any rumours that you have a grudge against our capital ships. We are not asking for a wtf pwn mobile. What we are asking for is a chance of equal opportunity. ----------------------
Capt Rob Minmatar Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.06.08 16:30:00 - [203] The bonus change to rep amount is nice, but it def looks like ccp think thats is all that is needed. I really hope they get there heads outa the ground and realise the much larger needs of this beautiful but rather pathetic ship.
Ariel Dawn Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.06.08 20:00:00 - [204] Originally by: Victor Ivanov My nidhoggur uses faction modules and has a lowest resist of 65% for explosive, due to the fact that a DMG control mod is truly integral for a ship with that much Hull points. Furthermore, the Chimera can do everything I do, because he has 400+ more capacitor, without any skills. (Skills will increase this amount exponentially) Damage Control is a terrible idea for the Nidhoggur unless you're planning on taking so much alpha that you dip into structure instantly. Best resists comes from: 1x Core X Explosive Hardener 1x Core X Kinetic Hardener 1x Corpum A-Type EANM 1x Anti-Thermic II Rig Gives 80%+ on EM/Kin/Exp and 72% on Thermal if I remember correctly. Most thermal straight thermal damage comes from gallente drones which can be removed via smartbombs, other than that its the lesser damage one on Hybrids.
Victor Ivanov Minmatar Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.06.09 09:27:00 - [205] Bumpitidy bump. ----------------------
Jack Toad	Posted - 2007.06.09 10:28:00 - [206] Originally by: Capt Rob The bonus change to rep amount is nice, but it def looks like ccp think thats is all that is needed. I really hope they get there heads outa the ground and realise the much larger needs of this beautiful but rather pathetic ship. I will go for Gallente one. That's sad, but i have no choice... Please, fix the Nid!
Amy Wang	Posted - 2007.06.09 18:36:00 - [207] It is sad indeed. Support my plea to complete the Nidhoggur boost here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=534263
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated Free Trade Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.09 19:40:00 - [208] Meh its been boosted,5% to amount,not duration,plus the multiplier of a triage. __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr. I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space.
Plymer Ization Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.06.09 20:16:00 - [209] Originally by: goodby4u Meh its been boosted,5% to amount,not duration,plus the multiplier of a triage. Still not good enough. 7.5% per level or it's a slap in the face. Either that or give us an armour repair bonus to capital non-remote reps to make up for our crap resists with a standard t2 tri-hardened setup.
Amy Wang	Posted - 2007.06.09 20:19:00 - [210] Edited by: Amy Wang on 09/06/2007 20:18:53 Originally by: goodby4u Meh its been boosted,5% to amount,not duration,plus the multiplier of a triage. Yea, so? Triage is something all carriers can use, so thats hardly an argument in favour of the Nid. If anything Nid will even work worse with triage mode implemented as in triage mode it is on its own with its bad tank and cant receive remote repair support from others and with 3000hp/2,5sec even a normal carrier in triage will over-repair its non-capital targets quite lots of times so the additional amount the Nid gives is wasted.
Capt Rob Minmatar Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.06.10 04:02:00 - [211] Originally by: goodby4u Meh its been boosted,5% to amount,not duration,plus the multiplier of a triage. This helps a bit, but the nidhoggur is still the worst carrier. The main probs were its cap, tank and bonus. CCP have fixed one of those problems, arguebly the least important one is todays battlefield.
JForce The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.04 01:41:00 - [212] Who's going to Fanfest and is going to take up our cause!!??!?!?

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