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Slayton Ford
Caldari Kudzu Collective Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.04.24 17:27:00 -
[61]
What makes the Drake more overpowered then the Myrm is not the passive tank, but the skills required to fly it. Put 1 mil SP drake pilot vs a 1mil SP myrm pilot and then what do you have?
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Tista
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Posted - 2007.04.24 17:27:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Ryysa All of the ships you have brought out are hardly overpowered, it's just the modules that make them.
Curse because it uses NOS(wow!) and damps(wow#2). Drake because it uses passive shieldtank.
Basically, on their own, those ships are hardly overpowered. And as for the vagabond I can only say "lol" I guess you have never ever flown one.
I get a ton of people convoing me and asking how to make their setup on it better and ask what they can do to beat a raven... My answer being almost always "unless the raven is a complete noob or afk there is no way you are beating him" upon what they are surprised and go "BUT I THOUGHT THIS SHIP IS SO UBER "
I'd say the three most overpowered things are (in no particular order): a) NOS b) Ridiculous passive tanks (same what happened to speedtanks with rev happened to passive tanks, need stacking nerf badly here). c) Dampeners.
As for ships - it's fairly easy: a) Nyx b) Aeon c) Wyvern d) Hel Immunity to warp scrambling and bubbles being screwed up is just stupid.
The titans themselves are not overpowered, their doomsday is.
agreed -------------------- My sig was stolen from some website.. leet!
The true Industrial capital ship! |
JoCool
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Posted - 2007.04.24 17:28:00 -
[63]
Edited by: JoCool on 24/04/2007 17:24:29 A common point of most players so far has been that most might be sick of the Nosage. I certainly am.
I'd give my vote for utility slots and that some Amarr T1 ships should get considerably more so they can field the most nosferatus. Like some Gallente have more drones than other races.
That would give the Amarr a meaning beside the other races, that would give the Amarr players a good point to why they fly Amarr, that would give even non Amarr players a reason to fly Amarr, that would give Amarr a stronger more unique combat style; like the Minmatar have their howitzer ships, like the Minmatar have their versatile and agile ships, you just have to love them . Like the Gallente have their drone ships, like the Gallente have their Blaster ships, like the Caldari have their ecm, like the Caldari have their missile boats. Give Amarr something major you recognize besides lasers for their t1 weaponry. _______________________________________________________________________ Trey Azagthoth > Youre my idol Jocool. I wanna be like Jocool jr. or Jocool the sequel! Oveur > ohnoes jocool |
welsh wizard
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.04.24 17:45:00 -
[64]
Stunning hypocrisy.
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Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.04.24 18:18:00 -
[65]
The first question people should ask themselves when considering wether or not ships are over- or underpowered is what the particular ship's role is.
The second question is wether it's the ship or the modules that comprise the current cookie-cutter setup that make it either under or overpowered.
The third question comes at the time you ask yourself wether or not you're not trying to make the ship into something it's not.
So, let's take the drake. It's an awesome passive tank. What is it's role ? It's mainly a crap ship destined to be a cheap agent running vehicle and a crap pvp vehicle. In pve it rocks in terms of suriviability, but sucks big time in terms of isk/time effectivity on higher levels. In pvp it's great if you absolutely don't want to die in roaming gangs but don't mind being utterly useless to your gang due to your utter crap damage and versatility.
But, is that the ship doing it ? Or is the LSE II's doing it ? For that answer, look to other setups involving extreme use of shield extenders. Do you see the same issue there ? Do two oversized extenders make the jaguar, sabre, vagabond, eos ... overpowered too ?
Thirdly, is being a damn hard target to kill actually overpowered in the role the ship plays ? Does a slowass BC that can't tackle, can't jam, can't web and can't really hurt anything fast enough to be worth it be overpowered ? Are you trying to picture this huge tanker as a solo ship ? If so, you're barking up the wrong tree. Are you picturing it as a gang ship ? If so, wrong tree again. If you're trying to make the point that it's overpowered in lvl 3 missions then yes, you've got a point.
But is that a reason to nerf it ?
[center] Old blog |
welsh wizard
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.04.24 18:20:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Rod Blaine The first question people should ask themselves when considering wether or not ships are over- or underpowered is what the particular ship's role is.
The second question is wether it's the ship or the modules that comprise the current cookie-cutter setup that make it either under or overpowered.
The third question comes at the time you ask yourself wether or not you're not trying to make the ship into something it's not.
So, let's take the drake. It's an awesome passive tank. What is it's role ? It's mainly a crap ship destined to be a cheap agent running vehicle and a crap pvp vehicle. In pve it rocks in terms of suriviability, but sucks big time in terms of isk/time effectivity on higher levels. In pvp it's great if you absolutely don't want to die in roaming gangs but don't mind being utterly useless to your gang due to your utter crap damage and versatility.
But, is that the ship doing it ? Or is the LSE II's doing it ? For that answer, look to other setups involving extreme use of shield extenders. Do you see the same issue there ? Do two oversized extenders make the jaguar, sabre, vagabond, eos ... overpowered too ?
Thirdly, is being a damn hard target to kill actually overpowered in the role the ship plays ? Does a slowass BC that can't tackle, can't jam, can't web and can't really hurt anything fast enough to be worth it be overpowered ? Are you trying to picture this huge tanker as a solo ship ? If so, you're barking up the wrong tree. Are you picturing it as a gang ship ? If so, wrong tree again. If you're trying to make the point that it's overpowered in lvl 3 missions then yes, you've got a point.
But is that a reason to nerf it ?
Excellently put.
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Erim Solfara
Amarr Tarlos INC
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Posted - 2007.04.24 18:32:00 -
[67]
Can I chuck this in in a hope to get some more constructive feedback on the thread than the crap I've had so far?
Nos fix?
I don't think the drake is -that- overpowered, the dps isn't very good, I've fought a couple on the test server, and was only unable to kill the ones that were piloted by pilots with 3 or 4 times my SP in a Harbinger.
Can't comment on the vaga or curse, never flown, although have been killed by many curses. But that's a nos problem... (see link)
New ship class |
Morgaine Legray
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Posted - 2007.04.24 18:47:00 -
[68]
wow the drake is overpowered cause of its passive tank lmao!
I don't know if your aware of this, but the myrmidon mounts a better passive tank, and does more dps. So if anything, the myrmidon is more overpowered then the drake. Gallante in general are overpowered.
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Ryysa
North Face Force Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.24 18:52:00 -
[69]
I think this thread is quickly becoming overpowered.
N.F.F. Recruitment - Killboard Mirroring tool |
Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.04.24 19:00:00 -
[70]
Let's apply the thing i posted above to the curse.
The curse is a drone/ew/nos boat. It has decent damage, high versatility, low tank and a great weapon in the nosferatu. The Curse is a solo or small gang weapon. It's not very good in pve, and poor in fleets or larger gangs. The argument that it is overpowered is gfed by it's ability to attack a larger and in terms of damage as well as tankage more powerfull ship and still win due to the ability to combine ew, damage and most specifically nosferatus.
Is the EW it uses overpowered ? Well, how many mods does it use ? Two damps ? Two damps and a TD ? Two TD's ? Is that counterable EW ? Yes.
Is it the drones ? No, it's not, it has no more drone dps then some comparable ships. It does not have both drone ADN turret or missile dps. It does not have fully disabling ecm as well as high drone dps.
Is it the nos ? Well, I'm not sure. Actually, I think it's the nos, EW put together. The EW stops an immediate reaction. The nosses stop a delayed reaction. The drones kill the target.
Is the Curse actually a ship with an invalid role ? No, not really. We have more excellent 1v1 ships that can take out other ships that are of higher class.
(my) Conclusion, it's awesome ability in 1v1 due to combination of EW and nos makes this ship (and the pilgrim) *the* winner when it comes to 1v1 killage of larger and same size vessels. It really only needs to fear another EW user that stops it from locking anything, or a larger gang of enemies. Is this position reasonable ? I think not, It's a tad too much, but not extreme. If you look at the other recons you'll notice that they all lack a specific ability in pvp. The falcon/rook can't do much else then ECM and do some pitifull damage. It's a 100% gang ship. The Arazu/lachesis can disable very well, but not kill very well, making it a good gang ship but poor solo. The huginn/rapier can support damage dealers, and do some damage to webbed targets fairly well, but it's paper thin and again a pure gang ship.
The curse/pilgrim doesn't need to be the same as the others imo. But if it's role won't be tackling+EW it has to be any other combination of two things, not the current three. So I'd go with Nosses and damage, but an inability to use EW effectivly. How do you get there ? By removing a medslot for another high slot maybe ?
Does that make sense ?
[center] Old blog |
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Godar Marak
Amarr Return Of Red Dawn
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Posted - 2007.04.24 19:05:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Godar Marak on 24/04/2007 19:01:24 ENOUGH of this overpowered non sense. REMOVE all stacking penalties, let men fit their ships like men.
If people fly max gank ships then they have no tank, and vice versa. No we got some half ass crap in between and thus we see all these rubbish problems.
-------------------- '\0/\0/\0/\0/\0/' Cant we all just get along?
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Captain Crimson
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Posted - 2007.04.24 19:13:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Amy Wang
- drone ships: they simply get too much, the curse is only an example (same goes for Pilgrim, Taranis, Ishkur, Vexor, Ishtar, Domi, Myrm, Moros) but lets look at it:
Taranis? lol? Still, good postage here....
Originally by: Tuxford I have already expressed my personal opinion on this and it was very positive (something about happy in the pants).
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Ryysa
North Face Force Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.24 19:32:00 -
[73]
Actually, for solopwnmobiles... Huginn is one of the best solopwnmobiles if fitted similarily to a vagabond, 300-350 dps is not that bad... Especially if you apply it to cruisers or frigs.
Curse is best for ganking hunters in belts who can't reapproach gate/station.
N.F.F. Recruitment - Killboard Mirroring tool |
CptEagle
Gallente D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.04.24 19:34:00 -
[74]
Nos and tier 2 bc's are overpowered. Vagabond might be a wee bit too, but I think all HAC's should be more like Vagabond's. Atm HAC's are just outclassed by tier 2 bc's. Also any sane man would use a tier 2 over a tier 1 battlecruiser. Tier 1's dont really have roles anymore.
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Benglada
Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2007.04.24 20:09:00 -
[75]
Err, i have a 600 dps deimos, with all 85 resists and a MAR2 i can run forever, a drake with HAm's broke my tank, and i could not touch his AT ALL. he was rigged though. ---------------------------
Originally by: Arkanor
0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.
Sig nerfz0r - maximum allowed siz0r is 24000 bytz0r. - Devil ([email protected]) Sig By Ortos |
Phelan Lore
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.04.24 20:19:00 -
[76]
I don't really think that any of those ships are overpowered at all.
The drake can tank great, but that's about it. It's DPS sucks and it is slow. If you bring a drake on a snigg op we will either make fun of you, or send you home to get another ship.
The Vagabond is fast and can do pretty good DPS, but essentially has no tank and doesn't fit a cap injector so it is susceptible to nos. You can't kill most well setup BS in a vaga. You don't need a huginn to kill a vaga either; all you need is something to jam or damp it and a ship that is faster than it.
The curse is a fantastic ship for solo or for a very small gang, but is completely worthless in a larger gang. I don't know how viable the nanocurse is now after the speed nerf, but a tanked curse will die very easilly to a cap injected ship like a hurricane.
I would agree with what some others have said that the only ships which are overpowered ATM are super caps. -
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JamnOne
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Posted - 2007.04.24 20:23:00 -
[77]
The way I look at this entire overpower stuff...if a ship can tank but has low dps that is not overpowered...that is it's role. To take a beating and let a someone else do the damage.
Here is an example of ships and roles... Drake - Tank Harbinger - Kill
Ok two different races - not really fair.
Proph - Tank Harbinger - Kill
Same race and line of ships (BC). Yes I know neither of these ships are very overpowered or under powered but each has a role. Another good exmaple is Frigates & Cruisers - they both have multiple ships in these categories each with their own special bonus for a specific role.
My personal opinion - before claiming a ship is overpowered look at it's sister ships and compare them. If their are no defined roles in them then maybe a ship needs to be improved or nerfed so it's role can be defined.
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Emperor D'Hoffryn
No Quarter.
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Posted - 2007.04.24 20:31:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Rod Blaine Let's apply the thing i posted above to the curse.
The curse is a drone/ew/nos boat. It has decent damage, high versatility, low tank and a great weapon in the nosferatu. The Curse is a solo or small gang weapon. It's not very good in pve, and poor in fleets or larger gangs. The argument that it is overpowered is gfed by it's ability to attack a larger and in terms of damage as well as tankage more powerfull ship and still win due to the ability to combine ew, damage and most specifically nosferatus.
Is the EW it uses overpowered ? Well, how many mods does it use ? Two damps ? Two damps and a TD ? Two TD's ? Is that counterable EW ? Yes.
Is it the drones ? No, it's not, it has no more drone dps then some comparable ships. It does not have both drone ADN turret or missile dps. It does not have fully disabling ecm as well as high drone dps.
Is it the nos ? Well, I'm not sure. Actually, I think it's the nos, EW put together. The EW stops an immediate reaction. The nosses stop a delayed reaction. The drones kill the target.
Is the Curse actually a ship with an invalid role ? No, not really. We have more excellent 1v1 ships that can take out other ships that are of higher class.
(my) Conclusion, it's awesome ability in 1v1 due to combination of EW and nos makes this ship (and the pilgrim) *the* winner when it comes to 1v1 killage of larger and same size vessels. It really only needs to fear another EW user that stops it from locking anything, or a larger gang of enemies. Is this position reasonable ? I think not, It's a tad too much, but not extreme. If you look at the other recons you'll notice that they all lack a specific ability in pvp. The falcon/rook can't do much else then ECM and do some pitifull damage. It's a 100% gang ship. The Arazu/lachesis can disable very well, but not kill very well, making it a good gang ship but poor solo. The huginn/rapier can support damage dealers, and do some damage to webbed targets fairly well, but it's paper thin and again a pure gang ship.
The curse/pilgrim doesn't need to be the same as the others imo. But if it's role won't be tackling+EW it has to be any other combination of two things, not the current three. So I'd go with Nosses and damage, but an inability to use EW effectivly. How do you get there ? By removing a medslot for another high slot maybe ?
Does that make sense ?
I would endorse this product and/or service, if not for the fact that the curse has the dps of a t1 cruiser. it has the same drone damage bonus and drone bay that the arbie has. Given that most curses have all nos up high, or at most 1 missle launcher, and most arbie setups will usually have a single missle launcher as well, curse <= arbie in terms of dps.
the curse dps seems high when it faces a active tanked ship, cause it turns the tank off. just take the curse against a passively tanked ship, and you will feel the lack of damage.
when im packing thermal drones, i cannot kill minnie assualt frigs before they get back to the gate. no web, but no ab or mwd either, due to the nos. its not even close. As been said in the thread, if your target is at a gate or station, the curse if not going to kill it solo.
Originally by: Snuggly It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
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Shardrael
Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2007.04.24 20:39:00 -
[79]
1.)titan 2.)mothership 3.) take your pick, most below these two are not so overbalanced there is no reasonable strategy to kill them
Originally by: Stamm Some people might have been convinced by the official announcement posted by Steelrat, but not me, I wasn't convinced until some random alt posts a brand new thread.
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Merin Ryskin
FinFleet Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.04.24 21:05:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 24/04/2007 21:02:48 Drake/passive shield tanks: NOT overpowered. The insane setups you see sacrifice all of their slots to do it. Which means low dps, and no way to pin down the target. It's good at keeping its pilot alive for a long time, but it can't solo and is only average in gangs. Put on the web/mwd/scram to actually kill something solo and you're down to a much more reasonable tank.
Solution: ignore it and warp out, or wait for your gang to arrive.
Other solution: 5% rate of fire, 10% missile velocity, possible reductions in grid/base shields to make it a gank ship. That's what we wanted in the first place, make it a proper pvp ship instead of the carebear win button.
Curse:: NOT overpowered. Yes, it's very good at nos-ewar tactics. It's a recon ship, it's supposed to lock down the target. The Curse is no better at this than the other recons, it just uses a different method. And as for its "huge" drone bay, the Curse/Pilgrim actually have fairly low damage output for T2 ships. They may be a bit better than other recons (compensating for their weaker ewar), but they're hardly out of proportion.
Solution: it's a recon, deal with it. You're just as dead if the Curse pilots switch over to other recons, so stop whining.
Vagabond: Maybe overpowered. The problem is deciding which setup you're talking about, the insane faction ones or the more reasonable T2 stuff. If anything, the overpowered area is the Vagabond's ability to turn and run the moment something goes bad, with near-zero risk (made far worse by implants/faction scrams/etc). How to fix that while still leaving a useful speed role, I don't know.
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Azuse
The Brotherhood Of The Blade The Makhai
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Posted - 2007.04.24 21:55:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Azuse on 24/04/2007 21:53:17 *Azuse wonders why someone decided, again, to start a thread which not only has thousands of previous incarnations, always degrades into i fly ship A which can't kill ship B, OVERPOWERED!*
As for the drake it's tank is not overpowered, what's overpowered are the modules you fit that allow you to sustain it infinatly, do the math.
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Chronus26
Gallente Team Laser Explosion
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Posted - 2007.04.24 22:02:00 -
[82]
The ship the other guy is flying -----
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Tearavygh Quillam
Caldari Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.24 22:08:00 -
[83]
In the current game mechanic : mothership/mothership/mothership(/mothership).
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n0thing
Northern Intelligence Artificial Intelligence.
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Posted - 2007.04.24 22:12:00 -
[84]
Doomsday just need to reduce its damage to around 30k without the 5% damage addition per skill. Otherwise its purely fine considering the nightmare to build and maintain one. I think everyone knows that whoever pilots Titan class ships surely do not fully own them and they belong to alliance/corp they are in. ---
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Dark Kavar
Caldari Aionios Diadochi
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Posted - 2007.04.24 22:17:00 -
[85]
Originally by: murder one The Drake. Pound for pound the most overpowered ship in Eve. As a corallary to this, the Nighthawk and Vulture are also extremely overpowered. The reason: passive shield tanks. When combined with T2 modules (previously unavailable until Revelations, like the SPR2s) shield rigs make for a huge tank with zero drawbacks.
Any BC that can tank a full on max skilled gank Hyperion permanently without breaking a sweat is overpowered. Period.
I own Drakes. I fly them. I tank sentries at 93% shield level passively. It's stupid. Add a stacking nerf to all shield rigs and shield modules (like large extenders), at least to the shield recharge rate. Speed mods were changed to have a stacking nerf, make it the same with shield mods. (Also note: armor rigs were stacking nerfed, so why not shield rigs?)
If caldari can't have nice tanks, what are we going to have, high dps?
Besides, when you have passive tanks like that you can't do much else, passive tanks require most of your slots to be used up, which means no ewar, low damage, no tackling ability
Kind of like the Triforce in Zelda, only not quite as potent.
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Azuse
The Brotherhood Of The Blade The Makhai
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Posted - 2007.04.24 22:22:00 -
[86]
The drakes tank is not the problem the fact that the drakes tank is infinite is the problem, its the equivelant of running two tii large boosters, infinatly.
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DeadRow
Magnificent Beavers Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2007.04.24 22:42:00 -
[87]
1. Ibis 2. Velator 3. Reaper
nerf noob ships(boost impairor amarr suck). This thread is a bit pointless, as stated before, it all depends on a situation and most setups are counter-able by another ship/tactic.
/DeadRow
*snip* - signature removed, please email us with a link if you wish to know why. -Ivan K |
Ryo Jang
Central Defiance
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Posted - 2007.04.24 22:48:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Destiny Calling
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin JUST LEARN TO COUNTER THE DAMN SHIPS INSTEAD OF NERFWHINING KTHXBYE!
What he said, Nos is fine how it is, if you want to hold onto your cap then inject it or nos back.
oh reeeeally. what about us amarr pilots who run cap boosters just to top up after 3-4 cycles of firing our guns? boosters for us arent an anti-nos module more than an essential part of our cap management. (this goes for gallente too).
Originally by: Destiny Calling
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Perfectly reasonable for a BS to lose to a Curse. Takes alot longer to get into a Curse than it does a BS.
funniest thing ive heard today :D thanks.
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Arii Smith
Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.04.24 23:20:00 -
[89]
I read the first page and skipped right to here, so pardon me if this has been mentioned...
But how about an anti-nos module (low preferably, but med if necessary) that protects a certain percentage, and a skill that can upgrade this defense (maybe even the same skill as to use NOS in the first place), this module could either be stand alone or nerf NOS performance if used on your ship to defend while also fitting nos for offense.
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Aggressive Salesman
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.04.24 23:51:00 -
[90]
1. Titans 2. Motherships 3. Gallente drone boats (Eos, Myrmidon, Dominix, Moros)
The Vagabond overpowered? Don't make me laugh. What does Minmatar have going for it right now:
- Tank? No, outtanked by all other races in all ship categories (except an inmobile Maelstrom). - DPS? No, outdamaged most of the time. - EW? Hahaha. - Ease of use? They must train every single skill tree except lasers and hybrids.
What's left? Speed. And that's it. Take speed out of that race and you have a whole lot of subpar ships that cannot do anything well but need to train everything. Outclassed in every category. Maelstrom? Crap, Megathron or Hyperion better in every aspect. Tempest? Same as before. Hurricane? Nice but badly outclassed. Cyclone? Crappy split weapon ship. Stabber? Paper thin. Capitals? Bleh (great designs though).
Before starting your own little crusade against something that probably just killed you, you should do some research a bit, crunch some numbers, try for yourself. None of the ships you listed are overpowered. |
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