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T2 Torpedos - worth it?

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Theodore Calvin	Posted - 2007.04.26 05:42:00 - [1] Hi guys, Im really hoping you can prove me wrong here, but Im failing to see a major benifit of waiting 2 weeks to train torpedos to level 5. I have been looking at the stats of each one, and aside from teh 5% damage bonus you get per level, the T2 torpedo variations really dont seem to give any advantage. Firstly the advanced long range torpedo. This actually does less damage then the standard one, has about a 3rd of the max flight time (which bassically means a 3rd of the range) along with some other small negatives. The only bonus it has it a better explosion velocity. However, look at teh graph on the missile guide, unless your target is doing more then about 350 m/s, it wont make any difference at all. Not to mention anything going faster then 350 is probably a frigate or smaller with a small sig radius, which you shouldnt be using torpedos on anyway. Ok, now the advanced anti ship torpedo. Ok does more damage, however teh explosion radius is now a whopping 600m. Not to mention a flight time and missile velocity nerf. The missile graph wont even let you put the explosion radius up higher then 500m, but Im guessing on anything smaller then a battleship, your gonna get such a massive nerf in damage it wont be worth it. Not to mention lastly the cost of the T2 torpedos. So, please, I want peolpe to prove me wrong, I want to so badly believe that training for the T2 torpedos is worth it, but right now, I just cant. Cheers TC
R3s1d3nt 3v1L Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.04.26 06:11:00 - [2] There are some advantages for training t2 torps. First off, the long-range torpedo has about 50% more range than the normal torpedo. Although the flight time is shorter, the javelin torpedo is as fast as a cruise missile, thus endowing it with superior speed and range. Secondly, the anti-ship torpedoes are useful against other battleships if you can manage a target painter onto your ship or gang. Otherwise, t1 torps work just fine. Remember, assuming you're in a raven, normal torpedoes have an effective range of approximately 100km, whereas most other battleships need to be within 20km in order to rival the damage output of a raven. Training the torpedo specialization skill makes t1 torpedoes much more effective against battleships. Last but not least, torpedoes 5, not cruise missiles 5, is necessary for citadel torpedoes. Hope that helps with the positive aspects of training torpedoes 5.
DiuxDium Free Mercenaries Union FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.26 06:46:00 - [3] I have fond memories of camping war targets in stations with Rage Torpedoes. When you need to lay the hurt down, nothing does it better than rage Torpedo at close range. Even though they were nerfed hard, they still hit battleships like little nukes. (I'm aware as to the fact that a nuclear device wouldn't function in space). Quote: Also, he didnt even have a Scrambler, so the POS would have gotten away anyway.
Shardrael Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.04.26 07:24:00 - [4] Originally by: DiuxDium I have fond memories of camping war targets in stations with Rage Torpedoes. When you need to lay the hurt down, nothing does it better than rage Torpedo at close range. Even though they were nerfed hard, they still hit battleships like little nukes. (I'm aware as to the fact that a nuclear device wouldn't function in space). why wouldnt it? unlike other explosions a nuke is not burning oxygen to provide its heat, that is from the splitting or combining of molecules so should you still get heat radiation etc in space from a nuke? Originally by: Stamm Some people might have been convinced by the official announcement posted by Steelrat, but not me, I wasn't convinced until some random alt posts a brand new thread.
Ortu Konsinni KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.26 07:41:00 - [5] Edited by: Ortu Konsinni on 26/04/2007 07:38:23 Originally by: DiuxDium I'm aware as to the fact that a nuclear device wouldn't function in space. I hope I won't make a complete ass of myself by saying this, but uh... stars are essentially large nuclear devices. It seems to me they function quite well in space? And I agree with the other poster, why would a nuke not work in space? It's not my specialty (history graduate here), but I can't think of a reason why nukes (fission or fusion) would not work in space. On topic: Raven + Rage Torps + target painters = win Likewise: Raven + Rage Torps + Bellicose/Huginn/Rapier = more win --- High quality pics of ALL EVE ships!
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.04.26 07:50:00 - [6] Originally by: DiuxDium I'm aware as to the fact that a nuclear device wouldn't function in space. Oh yes it does. But not quite as you think. P.S. Detonating a nuclear weapon on close proximity is almost the same in space as it is on the surface of a planet. _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
R3dSh1ft Caldari FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.26 07:57:00 - [7] nukes in space have no blast wave so you are just left with radiation - scary. a shaped nuclear device attached to a heavy metal would cause some hurt, though. training the specialisation skill increases the effectiveness of t1 torpedoes if you are using t2 launchers. basically, i would not recommend training siege to 5 unless you needed it for capitals. t2 torps are teh suck. train gallente or t2 cruise. ______________________________________
Susa Ou	Posted - 2007.04.26 07:58:00 - [8] I belive the specialization skill - like all specialization skills for wepons - only works with T2 launchers (thus, it works with T1 ammo, but you will need the T2 launchers). That being said, if you are in a gang with a few smaller ships, torps allow you to take down battleships with astonishing speed. And the fireworks are pretty. All in all, I trained T2 torps before T2 cruise on my raven pilot simply because there are better ships to kill the smaller targets and I should not be hitting anything smaller then a cruiser in a battleship anyway.
Arakidias	Posted - 2007.04.26 08:04:00 - [9] Originally by: R3dSh1ft nukes in space have no blast wave so you are just left with radiation - scary. a shaped nuclear device attached to a heavy metal would cause some hurt, though. training the specialisation skill increases the effectiveness of t1 torpedoes if you are using t2 launchers. basically, i would not recommend training siege to 5 unless you needed it for capitals. t2 torps are teh suck. train gallente or t2 cruise. That radiation includes a lot of heat though.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.04.26 08:05:00 - [10] Well, first off, training for T2 torps, gets you T2 launchers. Which are nice. You're mostly correct though - the situations in which T2 torps are useful, especially on a raven, are limited. Rages 600m explosion radius ISTR means you have to get your target signature to 500 to make them do thesame amount of damage. That's very achievable with a single painter, but ideally you want to boost them up to 600. However bear in mind that lots of the shield rigs boost signature. Which not only makes them easier to hit with guns, also makes it easier to really hurt them with Rage torps. A passive tanking rohk can end up as big as a dread without too much difficulty. I wouldn't bother with Javelin torps personally, unless you're fitting them to something that doesn't use missiles as a primary weapon system. Javelin rockets are flawed, because they slow you down, and javelin heavy assault missiles... actually, they're just about worth using, on a caracal or cerberus. They're shorter on flight time, but they are faster, which can be handy - damage lag sucks, when firing torps 100km :). But frankly, not useful in most situations. (They used to have the same stats as a cruise missile, but with a bigger warhead, which meant they were great, but .. well that's also 'overpowered')
lyrenna Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.26 08:28:00 - [11] Originally by: DiuxDium (I'm aware as to the fact that a nuclear device wouldn't function in space). you must say this to stars to especialy to the sun, so they can stop blinking, shining spamming heat and radiation to space. ============================ when you armor tank a raven god kills a kitten. Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!!! "sig hijack!" ============================
Ravenal The Fated	Posted - 2007.04.26 10:55:00 - [12] Originally by: DiuxDium Even though they were nerfed hard they were unnerfed from 1000 explosion radius (same as citadel torp) down to 600 (size of the largest battleship or there about). rage torps are AWESOME using target painter drones... Coupling tp drones and one target painter and your rage torps are doing max damage to a phoon (smallest battleship). reloading to javelin torps and cruisers are a go: "pop, pop ... poppopopopop"... :) .
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.04.26 11:03:00 - [13] First off, torpedoes 5 gives you 5% more raw damage per hit. Second, training torpedo spec to lvl 4 gives you 8% better ROF when using T2 launchers, resulting in a total of 1.05/.92 = 14.13% DPS. Quite worth it i'd say. Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly Radio is essential for Amarr, to call the much needed backup...
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.04.26 11:23:00 - [14] Originally by: Ravenal Originally by: DiuxDium Even though they were nerfed hard they were unnerfed from 1000 explosion radius (same as citadel torp) down to 600 (size of the largest battleship or there about). rage torps are AWESOME using target painter drones... Coupling tp drones and one target painter and your rage torps are doing max damage to a phoon (smallest battleship). reloading to javelin torps and cruisers are a go: "pop, pop ... poppopopopop"... :) Aren't you then also missing out on the additional DPS that combat drones would give you though? I'm used to thinking in terms of 100dps from a 75m dronebay (ish anyway) which ... well, I often don't consider worth the tradeoff.
Kamen SRBI Circle 0f Two	Posted - 2007.04.26 11:57:00 - [15] Originally by: Sokratesz First off, torpedoes 5 gives you 5% more raw damage per hit. Second, training torpedo spec to lvl 4 gives you 8% better ROF when using T2 launchers, resulting in a total of 1.05/.92 = 14.13% DPS. Quite worth it i'd say. From memory... what I see they nerfed the damage in return. AFAIK damage used to be huge, and now it's only about 20% more than regular torps. You were able to web and paint something pretty big with a Huginn mate. Range used to be decent and now it's only 10km. Just consider a gate situation... You need to come close then switch because yer speed is killed. Honestly, I think I'm much better off since I stopped training missles at 1.5m, and recked up alsmot 5m in gunnery
Ravenal The Fated	Posted - 2007.04.26 12:12:00 - [16] Edited by: Ravenal on 26/04/2007 12:09:43 Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Ravenal Originally by: DiuxDium Even though they were nerfed hard they were unnerfed from 1000 explosion radius (same as citadel torp) down to 600 (size of the largest battleship or there about). rage torps are AWESOME using target painter drones... Coupling tp drones and one target painter and your rage torps are doing max damage to a phoon (smallest battleship). reloading to javelin torps and cruisers are a go: "pop, pop ... poppopopopop"... :) Aren't you then also missing out on the additional DPS that combat drones would give you though? I'm used to thinking in terms of 100dps from a 75m dronebay (ish anyway) which ... well, I often don't consider worth the tradeoff. Depends, considering for example that the tempest has a signature radius of 340 your rage torps are only doing 56,6% damage. 5x medium tp drones give you (without any skills to increase the effect) = 47% target signature boost, boosting the tempest up to 500 sig rad. You are now doing 83,3% damage (3x heavy tp drones give 72,8% = 587,5 and bring your damage up to 97,92% damage. well, med drones are quicker and more agile. Berserker tp drones are very nice though. So the question is. 5x med tp drones + tp of your own mid slots or 3x heavy tp drones and more tanking or something else. end results are that the tp drone increase your dps by alot more than 100dps EDIT: this is of course only vs a tempest (fairly small battleship in terms of signature radius) - i strongly recommend a tp even though you are using 3x heavy tp drones for smaller ships like cruiser and frigs (helps alot) .
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.26 12:25:00 - [17] Originally by: Ravenal Depends, considering for example that the tempest has a signature radius of 340 your rage torps are only doing 56,6% damage. 5x medium tp drones give you (without any skills to increase the effect) = 47% target signature boost, boosting the tempest up to 500 sig rad. You are now doing 83,3% damage (3x heavy tp drones give 72,8% = 587,5 and bring your damage up to 97,92% damage. well, med drones are quicker and more agile. Berserker tp drones are very nice though. So the question is. 5x med tp drones + tp of your own mid slots or 3x heavy tp drones and more tanking or something else. end results are that the tp drone increase your dps by alot more than 100dps EDIT: this is of course only vs a tempest (fairly small battleship in terms of signature radius) - i strongly recommend a tp even though you are using 3x heavy tp drones for smaller ships like cruiser and frigs (helps alot) You miss the fact that they are stacking penelized. 5 medium TP drones only give you 24.56% sig increase not 47%, 3x heavy would give 56.93%. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Ravenal The Fated	Posted - 2007.04.26 13:15:00 - [18] Originally by: Hoshi You miss the fact that they are stacking penelized. 5 medium TP drones only give you 24.56% sig increase not 47%, 3x heavy would give 56.93%. Ach, that was it. Knew there was another reason for the med slot TP. 3x heavy tp drones + 1 tp = 617 tempest signature radius (varies on tp ew skill of course and the quality of the tp) .
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.04.26 13:53:00 - [19] Wrong again. Each TP drone acts as an individual painter. Therefore, the shipboard TP would act as the 4th painter in this scheme, and have little effect. Once again, showing yet another reason why non caldari EW drones are broke... Raptor and Ares Fix
Ravenal The Fated	Posted - 2007.04.26 14:35:00 - [20] Originally by: Kai Lae Wrong again. Each TP drone acts as an individual painter. Therefore, the shipboard TP would act as the 4th painter in this scheme, and have little effect. Once again, showing yet another reason why non caldari EW drones are broke... nope, the numbers in my last post were actual test numbers. So they were correct. .
SpawnSupreme	Posted - 2007.04.26 18:08:00 - [21] i will put it the best way possible! get tech 2 everything! but i would say torps are very low on my to do list. i currently have 20 mill skill points and only have torps at level 1 cuz i dont use them im more concerned on skills that will give me sustainability and common weapons! but if you have achieved most of your goals just weigh the torps to your next goal if it wins train it!
Ione Hunt Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.04.26 18:25:00 - [22] I don't fly Caldari, but from experience in fighting them I can say that a Raven with Rage torps together with a painter-huginn/raper are scary. Don't ever bother tanking that kind of damage without a fully faction fitted Navy Thron _______________
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.26 18:33:00 - [23] Originally by: Kai Lae Wrong again. Each TP drone acts as an individual painter. Therefore, the shipboard TP would act as the 4th painter in this scheme, and have little effect. Once again, showing yet another reason why non caldari EW drones are broke... It would be the 3rd tp drone that had little effect. Probably better replaced by a combat or maybe webbing drone. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
SpawnSupreme	Posted - 2007.04.26 20:12:00 - [24] drones are not the subject here... train torps when you feal you need them and anything in eve is worth training to Tech 2 level
James 315 Yet Another CAOD-Inspired 1-Man Alt Corp	Posted - 2007.04.26 20:28:00 - [25] The advanced long-range torps (javelins) used to be quite versatile. However, Burn Eden used them so often that CCP took note and nerfed them. The nerf of the javelins is generally considered to have been unnecessarily harsh (like the ECM nerf). When it comes to versatility, cruise missiles are preferred. In fact, after the javelin torp nerf, Burn Eden simply switched to using cruise missiles and pretty much went on as usual.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.04.26 20:36:00 - [26] Originally by: James 315 The advanced long-range torps (javelins) used to be quite versatile. However, Burn Eden used them so often that CCP took note and nerfed them. The nerf of the javelins is generally considered to have been unnecessarily harsh (like the ECM nerf). When it comes to versatility, cruise missiles are preferred. In fact, after the javelin torp nerf, Burn Eden simply switched to using cruise missiles and pretty much went on as usual. It wasn't just Burn Eden. Javelin Torps and precision cruise _were_ broken. Although to be fair, so was ... pretty much all the T2 ammo. Now, they might have gone a bit too far with some of 'em. Then again, mostly using T1 ammo is no bad thing.
DiuxDium Free Mercenaries Union FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.26 21:10:00 - [27] Edited by: DiuxDium on 26/04/2007 21:09:25 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: DiuxDium I'm aware as to the fact that a nuclear device wouldn't function in space. Oh yes it does. But not quite as you think. P.S. Detonating a nuclear weapon on close proximity is almost the same in space as it is on the surface of a planet. I should have been less subtle. "Not function the the same manner". As far as I remember, detonating a nuke in space would simply cause a radiation effect. Although I'm unsure if a "Shaped Charge" style nuclear blast would cause any more damage. (i.e as far as I'm aware Nukes in space cause EM damage). ------------- Zun Da > Does anyone know about the 793 ship kills in the ZN0-SR System? Marquis Dean > Probably OHGOD doing a 6/10 plex.
SpawnSupreme	Posted - 2007.04.26 21:21:00 - [28] just cuz CCP nerf the tops doesnt mean in a few weeks they will get a ton of crap for weak torps and realize nerfing them was bad! CCP has a hard time with fixing stuff! they normaly just remove it if its trouble so maybe possibly they will just remove them for a while who knows! i would give my theory to fix this but CCP dont monitor this forum for ideas it is just a place we all can express our fealling and then fight over them untill CCP breaks it up by closing the thread!
RC Denton	Posted - 2007.04.26 23:19:00 - [29] If you plan on fighting Battleships and only battleships, or if you plan on piloting a dread then you'll need torp 5. Otherwise cruise 5 is much better IMHO. T1 Cruise missiles in a t2 launcher are awesome, plus you have a lot of flexibility in terms what you can engage. Precision Cruise+guided missile precision 5+rigs=cruiser/frig go pop. Fury cruise are almost as good as torps vs battleships. But you do get some nasty t2 side effects.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.04.27 08:21:00 - [30] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 27/04/2007 08:18:18 Before the torp nerf, Javs were a bit overpowered (not as much as people make then out to be). Now they are worthless in 99% of combat situations. Before the nerf, Rage torps were a very useful gank tool against BSes and Cap ships (Painting a BS up to near 1000m was not all that hard). Now they are mediorce at best and usually not worth the hassle. I really hope CCP someday wakes up and brings them back in line. Not that hard to do. Make Javs affected by GMP skill, exp radius rigs and implants, and they will be fine. Or bring their damage back up to 450. Make Rage torps their old self again with +50% damage and 1000m exp radius. Or increase the velocity and exp veocity of the current +25% damage Rages significantly. --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel There is no 'e' in Caldari

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