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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6235
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Posted - 2017.03.17 21:35:29 -
[301] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Your proposal fails to do what you claim you want. You are asking CCP to do what you canGÇÖt or wonGÇÖt (mostly won't).
What are you talking about? though my proposal is mostly not intended seriously it would (with a bit of tweaking and some other changes I didn't go into as it wasn't intended entirely seriously) make real consequences for taking an action - the only people who wouldn't like it are those who just like to kill easy targets with little risk of actual comeback. EDIT: Don't confuse what I'm saying with something I necessarily want - its more a commentary on what I have observed is one aspect having an impact on a declining player base and reduced uptake of new players compared to the potential - personally I'm quite happy with highsec how it is (not that I play any more) but that is because I know how to navigate those dangers and it adds some interesting elements when you know there is some risk even though if I do say so myself I've become fairly competent at mitigating them.
In either sense it isn't going to give you what you are trying to accomplish.
If you want a person to have risk...go increase their risk. Risk is not something the game gives, risk is based off of player choices and actions. People do not want to take the actions necessary to impose risk on other players. Gankers can and do avoid the FacPo, but it would be much harder to avoid players. Get a fleet going, get a guy who can do scanning, warp into the gankers and start activating kill rights and kill them. I bet many of them have several kill rights, so if they come back...kill them again.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1055
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Posted - 2017.03.17 21:41:53 -
[302] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
In either sense it isn't going to give you what you are trying to accomplish.
If you want a person to have risk...go increase their risk. Risk is not something the game gives, risk is based off of player choices and actions. People do not want to take the actions necessary to impose risk on other players. Gankers can and do avoid the FacPo, but it would be much harder to avoid players. Get a fleet going, get a guy who can do scanning, warp into the gankers and start activating kill rights and kill them. I bet many of them have several kill rights, so if they come back...kill them again.
Reality is it often doesn't work like that - many are for instance purely catalyst alts that login just for a gank, log out again - would need a lot of luck and being right place right time to even interdict them enroute to a gank - some just shuttle to a waiting orca, etc. with a very narrow opportunity to get them (I'm a little out of date on this so tactics might be different now). |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6235
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Posted - 2017.03.17 22:13:18 -
[303] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
In either sense it isn't going to give you what you are trying to accomplish.
If you want a person to have risk...go increase their risk. Risk is not something the game gives, risk is based off of player choices and actions. People do not want to take the actions necessary to impose risk on other players. Gankers can and do avoid the FacPo, but it would be much harder to avoid players. Get a fleet going, get a guy who can do scanning, warp into the gankers and start activating kill rights and kill them. I bet many of them have several kill rights, so if they come back...kill them again.
Reality is it often doesn't work like that - many are for instance purely catalyst alts that login just for a gank, log out again - would need a lot of luck and being right place right time to even interdict them enroute to a gank - some just shuttle to a waiting orca, etc. with a very narrow opportunity to get them (I'm a little out of date on this so tactics might be different now). PS I'm not some hippy loving carebear :p - I've blagged the odd officer fit tengu, marauders and half a dozen freighters in my time :s
So go shoot their catalysts. What is the problem? That you can't impose a 5 billion ISK loss on them? Of course not they are not imprudent. In fact they are quite prudent. This is why it is hard to kill them. But they are doing things to make themselves hard to kill. They are taking actions that reduce their risk.
See it yet?
Prudence is good.
Imprudence is bad.
This true in game. This is true out of game.
If somebody is upset because they lost 6 billion ISK worth of cargo...they should be mad, at least in large part, at themselves for taking on so much risk.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
114
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Posted - 2017.03.17 22:16:36 -
[304] - Quote
Nobody in their right mind would play a game where you are inferior for all time. Alpha is to lure new players into Omega, nothing more nothing less. Since it takes months to become decent at anything players find it hard to open their wallet.
So, either keep the game as is and slowly loose players who eventually will fall out of interest (way of life) or make newbies feel great and capable from the very start.
El Asso Wuppo.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6235
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Posted - 2017.03.17 22:24:58 -
[305] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Nobody in their right mind would play a game where you are inferior for all time. Alpha is to lure new players into Omega, nothing more nothing less. Since it takes months to become decent at anything players find it hard to open their wallet.
So, either keep the game as is and slowly loose players who eventually will fall out of interest (way of life) or make newbies feel great and capable from the very start.
And how exactly do you do that? SP? And when they die to another player or group of players because they shitfit their ship? Lots of ISK? And when they start burning through it?
Sorry, but your suggestion is about as helpful as, "Lets save the game by saving the game."
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
114
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Posted - 2017.03.17 22:26:56 -
[306] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Nobody in their right mind would play a game where you are inferior for all time. Alpha is to lure new players into Omega, nothing more nothing less. Since it takes months to become decent at anything players find it hard to open their wallet.
So, either keep the game as is and slowly loose players who eventually will fall out of interest (way of life) or make newbies feel great and capable from the very start. And how exactly do you do that? SP? And when they die to another player or group of players because they shitfit their ship? Lots of ISK? And when they start burning through it? Sorry, but your suggestion is about as helpful as, "Lets save the game by saving the game."
Im not sitting around the table at CCP.
How about skipping those silly weeklong skilltrainingsessions. Have a set number of skills available at any time. Like inplants without the gazillion cost. Yeah, everything interesting doesnt have to cost a gazillion. Why not give players a break, constant fear of dying is not pleasant in any game.
El Asso Wuppo.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6235
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Posted - 2017.03.17 22:35:11 -
[307] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Nobody in their right mind would play a game where you are inferior for all time. Alpha is to lure new players into Omega, nothing more nothing less. Since it takes months to become decent at anything players find it hard to open their wallet.
So, either keep the game as is and slowly loose players who eventually will fall out of interest (way of life) or make newbies feel great and capable from the very start. And how exactly do you do that? SP? And when they die to another player or group of players because they shitfit their ship? Lots of ISK? And when they start burning through it? Sorry, but your suggestion is about as helpful as, "Lets save the game by saving the game." Im not sitting around the table at CCP. How about skipping those silly weeklong skilltrainingsessions. Have a set number of skills available at any time. Like inplants without the gazillion cost. Yeah, everything interesting doesnt have to cost a gazillion. Why not give players a break, constant fear of dying is not pleasant in any game.
None of this will do what you seek to accomplish, IMO.
We need to make new players feel empowered! Throw SP at them. Throw ISK at them. Throw ships at them. None of that actually addresses the problem you think you have identified.
And what constant fear of dying. HS is pretty damn safe already. I mean **** on a stick. Look at this. And this. In that last link I convert the amount of ISK value moving around the Forge into US dollars. It is a $33 million. Tell me again about this fear of constantly dying.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1055
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Posted - 2017.03.17 22:39:23 -
[308] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
So go shoot their catalysts. What is the problem? That you can't impose a 5 billion ISK loss on them? Of course not they are not imprudent. In fact they are quite prudent. This is why it is hard to kill them. But they are doing things to make themselves hard to kill. They are taking actions that reduce their risk.
See it yet?
Prudence is good.
Imprudence is bad.
This true in game. This is true out of game.
If somebody is upset because they lost 6 billion ISK worth of cargo...they should be mad, at least in large part, at themselves for taking on so much risk.
That is nothing to do with imprudence or prudence - the game mechanics massively null any real risk to them without them having to take any steps whatsoever - you'd have to stalk one of them obsessively without sleeping for days on end to even stand a chance of being in the right place at the right time for those few seconds when they are exposed and some of them will just log out and switch to another alt until kill rights have expired and so on.
Neither am I talking about massive losses - there is only so much prudence can protect you when say mining in a retriever - which are quite common gank targets - much of what I'm talking about is new players losing relatively low value stuff (though not so low value to them) in their first few weeks of playing. |
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
114
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 22:41:45 -
[309] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Nobody in their right mind would play a game where you are inferior for all time. Alpha is to lure new players into Omega, nothing more nothing less. Since it takes months to become decent at anything players find it hard to open their wallet.
So, either keep the game as is and slowly loose players who eventually will fall out of interest (way of life) or make newbies feel great and capable from the very start. And how exactly do you do that? SP? And when they die to another player or group of players because they shitfit their ship? Lots of ISK? And when they start burning through it? Sorry, but your suggestion is about as helpful as, "Lets save the game by saving the game." Im not sitting around the table at CCP. How about skipping those silly weeklong skilltrainingsessions. Have a set number of skills available at any time. Like inplants without the gazillion cost. Yeah, everything interesting doesnt have to cost a gazillion. Why not give players a break, constant fear of dying is not pleasant in any game. None of this will do what you seek to accomplish, IMO. We need to make new players feel empowered! Throw SP at them. Throw ISK at them. Throw ships at them. None of that actually addresses the problem you think you have identified. And what constant fear of dying. HS is pretty damn safe already. I mean **** on a stick. Look at this. And this. In that last link I convert the amount of ISK value moving around the Forge into US dollars. It is a $33 million. Tell me again about this fear of constantly dying.
So, you prefer suggestion 1, dont change anything and let players slowly fade away?
Im brainstorming here, what exactly is the point of monthlong skilltrainings? Endagame? To intimidate newbies? Why do you have to go to "work" (mining, corporate cannonfodder) for weeks just to get a decent ship or skillbook.
Its like Monopoly in space. Work or perish.
El Asso Wuppo.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6235
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Posted - 2017.03.17 22:50:13 -
[310] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
So go shoot their catalysts. What is the problem? That you can't impose a 5 billion ISK loss on them? Of course not they are not imprudent. In fact they are quite prudent. This is why it is hard to kill them. But they are doing things to make themselves hard to kill. They are taking actions that reduce their risk.
See it yet?
Prudence is good.
Imprudence is bad.
This true in game. This is true out of game.
If somebody is upset because they lost 6 billion ISK worth of cargo...they should be mad, at least in large part, at themselves for taking on so much risk.
That is nothing to do with imprudence or prudence - the game mechanics massively null any real risk to them without them having to take any steps whatsoever - you'd have to stalk one of them obsessively without sleeping for days on end to even stand a chance of being in the right place at the right time for those few seconds when they are exposed and some of them will just log out and switch to another alt until kill rights have expired and so on. Neither am I talking about massive losses - there is only so much prudence can protect you when say mining in a retriever - which are quite common gank targets - much of what I'm talking about is new players losing relatively low value stuff (though not so low value to them) in their first few weeks of playing.
No, the mechanics are the environment. See here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6875713#post6875713
Quote: For example, If I put 700 million ISK work of cargo into my tanked freighter and use a scout and manually pilot I'll likely be fine. On the other hand if I were to put 7 billion into an anti-tanked freighter and not use a scout my actions have caused me to face considerably more risk. Note in both instances the game environment is the same, but it is my actions that dictate the level of risk I am taking on.
And why is a pilot mining in a retriever when they can mine a procurer. A procurer can fit a pretty massive tank so that it will take several catalysts to burn you down, at least 4 maybe 5 or 6. And how many miners are ganked while watching Netflix or the like? Again player actions. Choosing a retriever, a very gankable ship. Fitting it with not tank. Watching Netflix. All imprudent actions IGÇÖm afraid.
Actions are what make a difference. For the suicide ganker he is taking actions to minimize his risk. He uses a fast aligning ship, he uses safe spots, he uses citadels, he uses cheap ships. He is using the environment to his best advantage whereas their targets, generally, are not.
Edit: Christ I feel like I'm having the same conversation over and over again...some EVE version of Ground Hog Day.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
115
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Posted - 2017.03.17 22:58:31 -
[311] - Quote
@Teckos Pech
Im not here to undermine you or the game. I have only played for 3 months, mainly exploring. And tomorrow I will get my final essential skill, hacking level 5.
It has not been a pleasant trip, but I occasionally get my frustration out in WoT and AW.
So, finding a way to ease those first months for a newbie should be of importance to make a new player addicted.
El Asso Wuppo.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6235
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Posted - 2017.03.17 23:01:00 -
[312] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
So, you prefer suggestion 1, dont change anything and let players slowly fade away?
Im brainstorming here, what exactly is the point of monthlong skilltrainings? Endagame? To intimidate newbies? Why do you have to go to "work" (mining, corporate cannonfodder) for weeks just to get a decent ship or skillbook.
Its like Monopoly in space. Work or perish.
No, but my point is that what you suggest will help the game is something that is very hard to accomplish and may be detrimental to the game. Maybe the better thing to do is tell new players EVE is not like other video games. That it is a harsh and cut-throat game, but if you are patient, learn not only the mechanics, but how to use them you can learn not only how to survive but thrive. Instead of trying to make them great...give them some realistic expectations of the game.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6235
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Posted - 2017.03.17 23:04:33 -
[313] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:@Teckos Pech
Im not here to undermine you or the game. I have only played for 3 months, mainly exploring. And tomorrow I will get my final essential skill, hacking level 5.
It has not been a pleasant trip, but I occasionally get my frustration out in WoT and AW.
So, finding a way to ease those first months for a newbie should be of importance to make a new player addicted.
The length of skill training is for game balance. Imagine if everyone started out able to do hacking right out of the gate. You'd find nothing worth exploring. Older more experienced players would be out there getting all the goodies first with an alt. And even if you did find something good, all those people doing exploration would crash the market.
Probably the best thing for player retention is player-on-player interaction. Players who do not interact with other players leave the game the soonest and that includes ship-to-ship combat as one form of interaction.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
115
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Posted - 2017.03.17 23:10:52 -
[314] - Quote
How about this.
Make Highsec antigank, let everybody live in harmony and AFK the **** out of this game. On the other hand, make Losec so alluring and profitable that you are superwilling to take the risks.
Skip those lowtier ships. Let newbies get some decent ships and beginner skills.
Remove some of that "rock, paper, scissor" mentality from the dogfights. How about a panicbutton that will teleport you to nearest highsec space, with cooldown.
El Asso Wuppo.
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
115
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Posted - 2017.03.17 23:17:58 -
[315] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
The length of skill training is for game balance. Imagine if everyone started out able to do hacking right out of the gate. You'd find nothing worth exploring. Older more experienced players would be out there getting all the goodies first with an alt. And even if you did find something good, all those people doing exploration would crash the market.
Probably the best thing for player retention is player-on-player interaction. Players who do not interact with other players leave the game the soonest and that includes ship-to-ship combat as one form of interaction.
Good point. You were talkin about risks in other post.
They should lower the risks for newbies. This game has a bad rep. Players are too scared of WH, losec and dogfighting, take away some of the risks of losing it all (panicbutton).
Should be more opportunities for soloplayers. Would lure more "mature" players with time and money on their hands.
El Asso Wuppo.
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1055
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Posted - 2017.03.17 23:22:45 -
[316] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:No, the mechanics are the environment. See here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6875713#post6875713 Quote: For example, If I put 700 million ISK work of cargo into my tanked freighter and use a scout and manually pilot I'll likely be fine. On the other hand if I were to put 7 billion into an anti-tanked freighter and not use a scout my actions have caused me to face considerably more risk. Note in both instances the game environment is the same, but it is my actions that dictate the level of risk I am taking on. And why is a pilot mining in a retriever when they can mine a procurer. A procurer can fit a pretty massive tank so that it will take several catalysts to burn you down, at least 4 maybe 5 or 6. And how many miners are ganked while watching Netflix or the like? Again player actions. Choosing a retriever, a very gankable ship. Fitting it with not tank. Watching Netflix. All imprudent actions IGÇÖm afraid. Actions are what make a difference. For the suicide ganker he is taking actions to minimize his risk. He uses a fast aligning ship, he uses safe spots, he uses citadels, he uses cheap ships. He is using the environment to his best advantage whereas their targets, generally, are not. Edit: Christ I feel like I'm having the same conversation over and over again...some EVE version of Ground Hog Day.
None of my argument is about people piloting freighters and getting ganked - I'm not disagreeing with any of those arguments at all - I take a lot of precautions using blockade runners, etc. and if people haven't learnt how to minimise the risks by the time they are able to fly those kind of ships then I have little sympathy for them and there simply is no helping them.
I'm talking about a very demonstrable loss of potential subscribers as new players which could possibly be avoided and with the trend of a declining player base it isn't something that should be trivially dismissed. I'm not saying here that every or a large number are not turning into long term subscribers due to this but at the same time atleast my experience suggests it isn't an insignificant number.
You are focusing way too much on specifics related to my argument than seeing the whole argument in broad strokes for what it is hence this is likely to go around and around :s at the end of the day someone using an alt to gank an inexperienced player can be almost if not entirely immune to repercussions by doing very little themselves the balance of the game is steeply in the ganker's favour and only those who like picking on targets that are unable to fight back would defend against measures that would make it a bit more equal. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6235
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Posted - 2017.03.17 23:23:22 -
[317] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
The length of skill training is for game balance. Imagine if everyone started out able to do hacking right out of the gate. You'd find nothing worth exploring. Older more experienced players would be out there getting all the goodies first with an alt. And even if you did find something good, all those people doing exploration would crash the market.
Probably the best thing for player retention is player-on-player interaction. Players who do not interact with other players leave the game the soonest and that includes ship-to-ship combat as one form of interaction.
Good point. You were talkin about risks in other post. They should lower the risks for newbies. This game has a bad rep. Players are too scared of WH, losec and dogfighting, take away some of the risks of losing it all (panicbutton). Should be more opportunities for soloplayers. Would lure more "mature" players with time and money on their hands.
New players need to learn how to lower their own risk. Oh, and according to CCP new players are suicide ganked with a probability of about 1%. So suicide ganking is not a big problem for them. They might get caught up in a wardec if the join a player run corp early on, but the veterans there should be helping them learn how to manage that risk...and if they aren't then the new guy needs to find a better corp.
Solo play is probably counter indicated given that player interaction is important for player retention.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A92Ge2S8M1Y
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
115
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Posted - 2017.03.17 23:24:07 -
[318] - Quote
Meh, knowing the playerbase a panicbutton is not good.
Maan that would be exploited. How about a "drop your cargo save your ship"-button?
Then you have a choice, fight til the bitter end or get away with your awesome ship.
El Asso Wuppo.
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1055
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Posted - 2017.03.17 23:30:06 -
[319] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Oh, and according to CCP new players are suicide ganked with a probability of about 1%. So suicide ganking is not a big problem for them.
Honestly I find CCP's statistics somewhat romanticised to fit the narration they want to tell - while I'm not suggesting like 60% of all new players face it or something I'm fairly certain it is a bigger factor than that. Sometime around 2014-2015 I was involved in around 10 people trying the game, some I know IRL and some from another forum and atleast 3 of them were suicide ganked a couple of them repeatedly in the first few weeks of playing. Around that time I was working IRL with a bunch of guys that were either in IRC or corps with ties to them who also confirmed a similar story with people they had tried to get into the game. |
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
115
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Posted - 2017.03.17 23:36:27 -
[320] - Quote
-Confidence -Progress -Purpose -Excitement
Confidence is the worst part. You are fumbling in the dark for a long, long time as newbie.
Progress and purpose could easily be sped up with ships and tweaks to combat, flying.
Excitement, a hard one. Can a game please everyone, a few or none?
El Asso Wuppo.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6236
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Posted - 2017.03.17 23:38:48 -
[321] - Quote
Rroff wrote:None of my argument is about people piloting freighters and getting ganked - I'm not disagreeing with any of those arguments at all - I take a lot of precautions using blockade runners, etc. and if people haven't learnt how to minimise the risks by the time they are able to fly those kind of ships then I have little sympathy for them and there simply is no helping them.
I was using freighter ganking to make a general point. Every player's risk is dependent on the player's actions and those of other players. The game won't suddenly gank you. Only other players do that. And NPC corp won't wardec you, only other players do that.
If you face risk in the game it is based on your actions and other players seeing a opportunity to benefit from you taking on too much risk.
Rroff wrote:I'm talking about a very demonstrable loss of potential subscribers as new players which could possibly be avoided and with the trend of a declining player base it isn't something that should be trivially dismissed. I'm not saying here that every or a large number are not turning into long term subscribers due to this but at the same time atleast my experience suggests it isn't an insignificant number.
IGÇÖm not dismissing it. I am telling you that your views are diametrically opposed to the core nature of the game. Lots of HS content has been lost over the years. Targeted HS war decs and can flipping are two examples. Other things like suicide ganking have been repeatedly nerfed with things like faster CONCORD response times and the removal of insurance for ships destroyed by CONCORD.
Rroff wrote:You are focusing way too much on specifics related to my argument than seeing the whole argument in broad strokes for what it is hence this is likely to go around and around :s at the end of the day someone using an alt to gank an inexperienced player can be almost if not entirely immune to repercussions by doing very little themselves the balance of the game is steeply in the ganker's favour and only those who like picking on targets that are unable to fight back would defend against measures that would make it a bit more equal.
First new players are rarely suicide ganked, well at least the ones who are 15 days old or younger (see the above youtube video). Second players who have been suicide ganked or killed legally and were 15 days old or youngerGǪthey stayed longer than those who were not killed. And you are also basically talking about dumbing the game down. Sure we could make it a dumb game and it might get some new subscribers, but my guess is youGÇÖll lose even more of the long time players and you probably wonGÇÖt get enough new players to offset that.
And yes, I know you wonGÇÖt like the youtube video. YouGÇÖll likely try to dismiss it with some weak argument. Please donGÇÖt. IGÇÖm tired of having to keep typing out the same responses again and again. A sample of 80,000 players is more than sufficient. Where I work we have over 5 million customers and we routinely make do with samples of 50,000. In fact, we could go even smaller. We go big because we invariably are asked questions about some specific sub-set of the population. And while a population of 3,000 might be sufficient to come up with summary statistics for the population it will be too small for a specific sub-group. But with 50,000 you are more likely to get a valid sample for the sub-group inside that sample. Further, even if CCPGÇÖs analysis is wrong, being wrong does not make suicide ganking somehow a problem.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6236
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Posted - 2017.03.17 23:40:22 -
[322] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Oh, and according to CCP new players are suicide ganked with a probability of about 1%. So suicide ganking is not a big problem for them. Honestly I find CCP's statistics somewhat romanticised to fit the narration they want to tell - while I'm not suggesting like 60% of all new players face it or something I'm fairly certain it is a bigger factor than that. Sometime around 2014-2015 I was involved in around 10 people trying the game, some I know IRL and some from another forum and atleast 3 of them were suicide ganked a couple of them repeatedly in the first few weeks of playing. Around that time I was working IRL with a bunch of guys that were either in IRC or corps with ties to them who also confirmed a similar story with people they had tried to get into the game.
Wow 10 dudes you know vs. CCP's sample of 80,000.
Yeah, I'm impressed.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
115
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Posted - 2017.03.17 23:50:48 -
[323] - Quote
To be honest Im amazed how safe the game really is.
As a newbie I accidentally got lost at my first explorer trip. So i thought what the heck, for hours I fumbled around in wormholes scanning and warping (no cloak). Kept my cool, failed 90% of hackings but made it back safe.
Since then I have always explored in WH and losec. Generally players are friendly and helpful.
Been ganked a couple of times, always feeling helpless.
Still, my point is that the first month or two are way too unforgiving.
El Asso Wuppo.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6236
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Posted - 2017.03.17 23:52:07 -
[324] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:-Confidence -Progress -Purpose -Excitement
Confidence is the worst part. You are fumbling in the dark for a long, long time as newbie.
Progress and purpose could easily be sped up with ships and tweaks to combat, flying.
Excitement, a hard one. Can a game please everyone, a few or none?
That's great, but how are you going to do that? I would recommend new player friendly organizations like Eve Uni, Karmafleet, Pandemic Horde, Brave. Also, one could shop around for a good corp. This latter approach is harder in that a good corp will help the new players, not leave them to their own devices.
I do not believe you can accomplish any of those things with mechanics changes.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6236
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Posted - 2017.03.17 23:56:44 -
[325] - Quote
http://kotaku.com/eve-player-gets-revenge-on-griefer-four-years-later-1793393532
Quote:They say revenge is a dish best served cold. In EVE Online player Darvo ThellereGÇÖs case, it was cold as the uncaring vacuum of space.
DarvoGÇÖs story began back in 2013. He was just taking his first steps in the gameGÇÖs massive galaxyGÇöbanding together with other overwhelmed newbiesGÇöwhen a player named Kackpappe decided to give him ****. And by GÇ£give him ****,GÇ¥ I mean he declared war.
GÇ£His goal wasGÇöthis is what he stated to usGÇöto ruin our game experience and harass us until we stop playing,GÇ¥ wrote Darvo on the EVE subreddit. GÇ£We fought backGÇöin kestrels, as the noobs we were. In the end, after a few months of daily harassment, he dropped the war. And I made a promise to him: GÇÿI donGÇÖt know how or when, but the day will come that I will find you and I will take all your stuff.GÇÖGÇ¥
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
115
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Posted - 2017.03.17 23:58:32 -
[326] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
That's great, but how are you going to do that? I would recommend new player friendly organizations like Eve Uni, Karmafleet, Pandemic Horde, Brave. Also, one could shop around for a good corp. This latter approach is harder in that a good corp will help the new players, not leave them to their own devices.
I do not believe you can accomplish any of those things with mechanics changes.
Still think they should make it less corporate. I would argue that most players want to stick to themselves or play with closest friends and/or spouses.
Build your own cozy spacestation where you could safely store stuff bought with micro-ISK, maybe have a hangar with your beloved ships.
Yeah, a little Second Life vibes into Eve.
El Asso Wuppo.
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
28055
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Posted - 2017.03.17 23:59:28 -
[327] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:How about this.
Make Highsec antigank, let everybody live in harmony and AFK the **** out of this game. That would ruin the economy with a flood of stuff that nobody has put any effort into obtaining, and basically turn hisec into a PvE only shard. It also completely ruins it for everybody that doesn't AFK all of the things.
AFK is not fun, you may as well not be playing at all.
Quote: On the other hand, make Losec so alluring and profitable that you are superwilling to take the risks.
They moved lvl 5 missions to lowsec in an attempt to draw players from hisec in pursuit of the higher rewards; it failed. PI is better in lowsec, mission rewards are better in lowsec, exploration is better in lowsec, anoms are better in lowesec, etc, etc. People still don't go there.
Quote:Skip those lowtier ships. Let newbies get some decent ships and beginner skills. Newbies already have better skills and access to more ships than they have at any time in the past, many of us started playing when there were learning skills, skills you trained in order to train other skills faster, despite a SP speed bonus to 1.5M SP they took months to train; if you didn't train them any skills you did train did so at a vastly reduced rate. We mined in frigates, because the Venture didn't exist, hell many would have exchanged a testicle for a ship like the Venture to mine with.
CCP could start people with millions of SP and access to battleships and they'd still demand more, because they'd still die by the dozen in entertaining fashions. The amusing thing is that the SP isn't as important as knowing how to leverage it properly; it's not what you have, it's what you do with it. Older players are better at most things not because of SP, but because of where that SP is placed and because we know how to leverage it properly.
I think the highest SP on any of my characters is 45M ish, and it's an alt.
Quote:Remove some of that "rock, paper, scissor" mentality from the dogfights. Everything has a counter, this is known as balance. Ship doctrines are constantly evolving and new tactics developed, it's up to you to figure out the counters; you do this by trying and dying, and then having another go.
Quote:How about a panicbutton that will teleport you to nearest highsec space, with cooldown. God no.
In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
New Player FAQ
Feyd's Survival Pack
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1055
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Posted - 2017.03.17 23:59:50 -
[328] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Rroff wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Oh, and according to CCP new players are suicide ganked with a probability of about 1%. So suicide ganking is not a big problem for them. Honestly I find CCP's statistics somewhat romanticised to fit the narration they want to tell - while I'm not suggesting like 60% of all new players face it or something I'm fairly certain it is a bigger factor than that. Sometime around 2014-2015 I was involved in around 10 people trying the game, some I know IRL and some from another forum and atleast 3 of them were suicide ganked a couple of them repeatedly in the first few weeks of playing. Around that time I was working IRL with a bunch of guys that were either in IRC or corps with ties to them who also confirmed a similar story with people they had tried to get into the game. Wow 10 dudes you know vs. CCP's sample of 80,000. Yeah, I'm impressed.
Be dismissive all you want - I'll be very surprised if I'm completely wrong about this :D sadly its an all to common story that people are dismissive of what I say but end up realising I was on the money all along in the long run. |
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
115
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Posted - 2017.03.18 00:01:01 -
[329] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:http://kotaku.com/eve-player-gets-revenge-on-griefer-four-years-later-1793393532 Quote:They say revenge is a dish best served cold. In EVE Online player Darvo ThellereGÇÖs case, it was cold as the uncaring vacuum of space.
DarvoGÇÖs story began back in 2013. He was just taking his first steps in the gameGÇÖs massive galaxyGÇöbanding together with other overwhelmed newbiesGÇöwhen a player named Kackpappe decided to give him ****. And by GÇ£give him ****,GÇ¥ I mean he declared war.
GÇ£His goal wasGÇöthis is what he stated to usGÇöto ruin our game experience and harass us until we stop playing,GÇ¥ wrote Darvo on the EVE subreddit. GÇ£We fought backGÇöin kestrels, as the noobs we were. In the end, after a few months of daily harassment, he dropped the war. And I made a promise to him: GÇÿI donGÇÖt know how or when, but the day will come that I will find you and I will take all your stuff.GÇÖGÇ¥
No, these sale pitches wont work.
El Asso Wuppo.
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1055
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Posted - 2017.03.18 00:03:47 -
[330] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:http://kotaku.com/eve-player-gets-revenge-on-griefer-four-years-later-1793393532 Quote:They say revenge is a dish best served cold. In EVE Online player Darvo ThellereGÇÖs case, it was cold as the uncaring vacuum of space.
DarvoGÇÖs story began back in 2013. He was just taking his first steps in the gameGÇÖs massive galaxyGÇöbanding together with other overwhelmed newbiesGÇöwhen a player named Kackpappe decided to give him ****. And by GÇ£give him ****,GÇ¥ I mean he declared war.
GÇ£His goal wasGÇöthis is what he stated to usGÇöto ruin our game experience and harass us until we stop playing,GÇ¥ wrote Darvo on the EVE subreddit. GÇ£We fought backGÇöin kestrels, as the noobs we were. In the end, after a few months of daily harassment, he dropped the war. And I made a promise to him: GÇÿI donGÇÖt know how or when, but the day will come that I will find you and I will take all your stuff.GÇÖGÇ¥
These things happen :D some friends of mine had their POSes knocked over 3 times in a row in war decs - on the 4th time with the POS in RF and no PVP experience the CEO berated the entire corp to sitting on the gate into the system in armageddons - griefers jump in, jumped back out again and never came at them again without a single shot fired.
Though they then moved to wormhole space to avoid war decs and my alliance at the time (unknown to me until it was nearly over) then razed their wh system to the ground. |
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