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projectile guns: what am i doing wrong?

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AntonioBanderas	Posted - 2007.05.01 23:15:00 - [1] hi until now i've flown caldari, and got used to missiles. now i've switched to matari and projectiles, and i'm doing SOMETHING wrong. Before, i used to warp in, and take hostiles one by one. Now, i can't do nothing! I've tryed shooting down angel something, small fregates that haunt belts. I used medium guns. With artillery, i expected not to have much effect. Then I switched to autocannons. NOTHING! I've tryed ALL calibers, from 425mm down to 180mm and I was VERY dissapointed. I managed to hit them (mostly) with low calibers (180 and 220), but damage dished out was dissapointing. I usaed nuclear, i found it nicely balanced between range and damage. I won't even talk how bad I fared against drones. On low slot i had one gyro stabilizer. I also tryed webifying them, but there was no dramatic effect. So, what am I doing wrong? I don't want to go back to small guns, i've trained for this!
Symb Everway Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.05.01 23:20:00 - [2] Welcome to the wonderful world of tracking. The best thing to do is kill them at 9km while they're webbed and you're flying directly away from them (MWD helps a lot). Also, always carry five small drones. BTW, the 425s are generally considered weak. The DPS increase is really small and your tracking goes down.
ArtemisEntreri Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.05.01 23:22:00 - [3] Don't use nuclear, use fusion for angels use phased plasma vs sansha/blood and titanium sabot for guristas/serpentis and don't expect medium guns to hit frigates, use drones for that
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.05.01 23:22:00 - [4] With Artillery, you should fly away from or towards your target. Orbiting makes Arty sad. With Autocannons, I don't know what your problem is. They track well enough to shred most frigates even in a fairly close orbit. Perhaps a little more range? AC don't track well enough to use at optimal range, try moving out to half the falloff range and shoot from there. Trajectory Analysis and Motion Prediction are important support skills for projectiles. Have you trained them at all? -- Guile can always trump hardware --
VanNostrum Cataphract Securities	Posted - 2007.05.01 23:40:00 - [5] assuming you trained missiles and little to no gunnery, you cant expect to do much dmg projectile wepons are very skill intensive. with missiles you get some dmg & rof bonuses, same in gunnery, though tracking, optimal and falloff skills will also give you higher chance of well aimed shots which considerably increase overall dps so high skilled turrets > missiles
Kei Nagase Minmatar Delictum 23216	Posted - 2007.05.02 05:46:00 - [6] Webbing is my key to killing. Though, I will be looking into switching to something smaller based on the information about 425s
Pluton Hazmat Momentum. Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.05.02 05:53:00 - [7] Originally by: ArtemisEntreri Don't use nuclear, use fusion for angels use phased plasma vs sansha/blood and titanium sabot for guristas/serpentis and don't expect medium guns to hit frigates, use drones for that Even though Guristas have kinetic as their lowest resistance, the high thermal damage (Guristas second lowest resistance) of phased plasma actually makes phased plasma marginally more effective against Guristas, and phased plasma is certainly better for Serpentis.
Megan Maynard Minmatar RONA Deepspace	Posted - 2007.05.02 06:31:00 - [8] TARGET PAINTERS whenever you use medium guns. Or webs, whatever floats your boat.
AntonioBanderas	Posted - 2007.05.02 06:41:00 - [9] Originally by: VanNostrum assuming you trained missiles and little to no gunnery... oh, i've trained gunnery, and was witholding myself from using them until i felt i had some skills. I was thinking about my problem, and then I remembered that frigs have signature radius about 50m, while medium guns have resolution of around 125m. So, i'll have to use webbers or painters, as some of you suggested... Thank you all!
Ruah Piskonit Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.02 06:45:00 - [10] key is the learn about transversal - thats where the secret is. ----
AntonioBanderas	Posted - 2007.05.02 07:26:00 - [11] Originally by: Ruah Piskonit key is the learn about transversal - thats where the secret is. but i know about transversal, i've set up my overview, i've shoot only at targets with low transversal, but to no effect. I thought I was getting mad.
Gyro DuAquin1 Tri Optimum Ev0ke	Posted - 2007.05.02 07:30:00 - [12] how much points do you have in gunnery? What ship type are u using and what are u doing, like mission or belts? Npcing with proj is quiet easy when you have some points in the right skills, but u cant expect to wtf pwn npc with no decent skills, those 2k wreckings are done by ppl with quiet a few point or on structure. :D
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.05.02 08:15:00 - [13] Play with the tracking calculator in the player guide, and look at transverses and signatures. Incidentally, if you ever use autocannons, you'll almost certainly find their optimal range, isn't - you have to be almost stationary to hit effectively with an auto at the measely optimals you get with them
AntonioBanderas	Posted - 2007.05.02 08:25:00 - [14] Originally by: Gyro DuAquin1 how much points do you have in gunnery? What ship type are u using and what are u doing, like mission or belts? Gunnery: 3 Medium Projectile Turret: 2 Motion Prediction: 3 Rapid Firing: 3 Sharpshooter: 3 Small Projectile Turret: 3 Weapon Upgrades: 1 + some hybrid skills, not imporant for this discusion. I'm using Rupture. I've also slapped some named gyro. I play missions, but i was just belting around, testing my setup.
Ruah Piskonit Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.02 09:00:00 - [15] to be honest, I would go back to missles for a bit untill your gunnery is a little higher. You need to get rapid fire, motion prediction, sharpshooting, and trajectory analysis to 4 or higher before you really want to start using guns. Auto cannons make for poor ratting setups if you are used to missles fyi and artis work only if you are careful about what you are hitting. The key is to think about your optimal/falloff, the transversal and your skills. But all in all, I would get into a drake or a caracal and keep running missions with that - missles are perfectly fine. ----
AntonioBanderas	Posted - 2007.05.02 09:46:00 - [16] well, i am switching to guns becouse of pvp. And, my missile skills are pathetic (waaay worse than my bunnery skills). Ok, i'll continue missioning in my caracal until i get all on lvl 4.
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.02 10:07:00 - [17] Well, missiles are the win against rats... If you are going to use your guns in pvp, try sparring with a corpmate, or just a regular mate, that will give you a better feel of things, as rats and players are two different worlds It's great being Amarr isn't it.
Slayton Ford Kudzu Collective Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.05.02 17:24:00 - [18] Originally by: AntonioBanderas Originally by: Gyro DuAquin1 how much points do you have in gunnery? What ship type are u using and what are u doing, like mission or belts? Gunnery: 3 Medium Projectile Turret: 2 Motion Prediction: 3 Rapid Firing: 3 Sharpshooter: 3 Small Projectile Turret: 3 Weapon Upgrades: 1 + some hybrid skills, not imporant for this discusion. I'm using Rupture. I've also slapped some named gyro. I play missions, but i was just belting around, testing my setup. I'm doing the same thing as you are in making a switch from Cald Missiles to Min Proj. Missles are great for doing decent DPS at low SP. But once you invest several million SP into gunnery, you really start to see the returns. Unless your in a rifter with named AC's, you should really expect to use t2 guns to get your good damage. This means initially doing the following - Gunnery - 5 Weapon Upgrades - 5 Advanced Weapon Upgrades - 4 (needed for fitting) Surgical Strike - 4 Rapid Fireing - 4 Sharpshooting - 4 Small Proj - 5 Small AC Spec - 4 Small Art Spec - 4 Med Proj Turret - 5 Med AC turret - 4 Med Art Turret - 4 Some of the skills I have listed at 4 you will want to do to 5 eventually (Surgical Strike for example) while taking Advanced Weapon Upgrades to 5 is almost never needed. For missions and 0.0 belt ratting though, the Raven is king due to the f1/f2/f3/f4/f5/f6 efficiency. For PvP though, you can't go wrong being Min spec'd.
AntonioBanderas	Posted - 2007.05.03 08:58:00 - [19] Edited by: AntonioBanderas on 03/05/2007 08:54:16 thank you all very much! so, yesturday i was trying to set my new rupture up. first, i went with 4x dual 180mm AC and 2x assault lounchers; AB, cap recharger and web in mids; and 800mm armor, explosive resist, i think it was dps1 or something for powergrid. And it was ok. effective THEN, i slapped 4 650mm artys, and in low slots, 2 dps-es or something, couse i was LOW on powergrid, and started using ab to get range, webber to slow them down and arys to blow them to kingdom come. I had missiles for fast ******* if they came in mto close, plus 3 small drones orbiting me (working on that). And that was ULTRA FUN!!!!!!!!! Finally combat is more engaging, no 'warp in, tank, kill them one by one'. Now i must take care of distance, transversal, webbing, who will i shoot with aarty and who with missiles, micro my drones, webber. Misiions are fun again!!! (Especially since i cant yet effeectively armor tank ) The only problem is i'm REALLY short on powergrid... Maybe i'll get less plates... And higher resistances, once I get skills...
ArmyOfMe Exotic Dancers Club	Posted - 2007.05.03 09:10:00 - [20] Welcome to the world of guns
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.05.03 09:45:00 - [21] Originally by: AntonioBanderas Originally by: Ruah Piskonit key is the learn about transversal - thats where the secret is. but i know about transversal, i've set up my overview, i've shoot only at targets with low transversal, but to no effect. I thought I was getting mad. The other trick that's worth remembering is parallel fight reduces transverse. So 'look at' their ship, and double click the direction they're pointing. You'll move 'with' them, probably not at the same velocity though. This will reduce their transverse somewhat. Of course, ideally if you can get them flying straight towards/away from you, that works nicely too. Well, with NPCs it does - most will move 'away' if you're too close, and towards if you're too far, in fairly straight lines.
AntonioBanderas	Posted - 2007.05.03 10:29:00 - [22] Edited by: AntonioBanderas on 03/05/2007 10:29:21 Originally by: James Lyrus The other trick that's worth remembering is parallel fight reduces transverse. So 'look at' their ship, and double click the direction they're pointing. You'll move 'with' them, probably not at the same velocity though. This will reduce their transverse somewhat. Of course, ideally if you can get them flying straight towards/away from you, that works nicely too. Well, with NPCs it does - most will move 'away' if you're too close, and towards if you're too far, in fairly straight lines. yes, i've think of that. if i use tactical overlay, i see line from my ship to curent target, so i tend to fly along that line, to minimize transversal Then i use ab to keep at optimal + half falloff and they pop like nothing :)
smallgreenblur Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.03 11:30:00 - [23] Edited by: smallgreenblur on 03/05/2007 11:27:03 Originally by: AntonioBanderas Edited by: AntonioBanderas on 03/05/2007 10:29:21 Originally by: James Lyrus The other trick that's worth remembering is parallel fight reduces transverse. So 'look at' their ship, and double click the direction they're pointing. You'll move 'with' them, probably not at the same velocity though. This will reduce their transverse somewhat. Of course, ideally if you can get them flying straight towards/away from you, that works nicely too. Well, with NPCs it does - most will move 'away' if you're too close, and towards if you're too far, in fairly straight lines. yes, i've think of that. if i use tactical overlay, i see line from my ship to curent target, so i tend to fly along that line, to minimize transversal Then i use ab to keep at optimal + half falloff and they pop like nothing :) Only works if they are moving at you / away. You need to aim in the same direction that they are if they have transversal > 50m/s or so. sgb
AntonioBanderas	Posted - 2007.05.03 12:44:00 - [24] thanks i was just about to ask how hight is high transversal
Riho Gallente Magnificent Beavers Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.05.03 15:27:00 - [25] dunno if this has been mentioned.. but be sure u check that ur at right range :P shooting ammo that has optimal fo 5 km from 50km is kinda pointless :P --------------------------------------- Sig killed by MODs.... reworking it Great being Gallente... aint it ? ----------------- YARRRR, sig hijack! -HornFrog -----------------
Slayton Ford Kudzu Collective Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.05.03 15:33:00 - [26] If your really new to guns, get a rifter w/ 1500 or 200mm ACs and go do some lvl2's in it. Rifter is a great learning ship for both guns and minmatar in general.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.05.03 15:55:00 - [27] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: AntonioBanderas Originally by: Ruah Piskonit key is the learn about transversal - thats where the secret is. but i know about transversal, i've set up my overview, i've shoot only at targets with low transversal, but to no effect. I thought I was getting mad. The other trick that's worth remembering is parallel fight reduces transverse. So 'look at' their ship, and double click the direction they're pointing. You'll move 'with' them, probably not at the same velocity though. This will reduce their transverse somewhat. Of course, ideally if you can get them flying straight towards/away from you, that works nicely too. Well, with NPCs it does - most will move 'away' if you're too close, and towards if you're too far, in fairly straight lines. Or, you could add the transversal row to the overview. ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever
Kamen SRBI Circle 0f Two	Posted - 2007.05.03 20:26:00 - [28] Edited by: Kamen on 03/05/2007 20:28:42 Originally by: Haniblecter Teg ... Or, you could add the transversal row to the overview. Transversal means nothing actually, and CCP used it to try simplify tracking for dummies... Something moving perpendicularly at 500m/s right next to you is not the same as something moving 500m/s 200km away from you. They added a new column to the overview on Sisi when I was testing Revalations, and I think they put it in-game by now. I think it's called Radial or Angular velocity and it shows how many radians per second something moves relative to you. That speed can be matched to your turret tracking speed (which is in radians per second). If it's a bit greater, you are missing due to tracking. If it's smaller you are likely gonna miss completely due to tracking. You reduce the miss chance here by making the target not "turn around you" (flying in parallel, or moving towards/away). You want to use a webber to stop the target from "turning around you"... You can also use tracking computers/enhancers to counter the target's movement by increasing your tracking. Also, bu being closer to your optimal, target's movement has less effect on your tracking due to it being further away, so by increasing optimal you reduce the effect of target's movement. That is one of the things that give Snipers the edge in combat. On the other hand you get ship's radius which will cause you to miss even while having perfect tracking, if your gun's resolution is too big. You want to use a painter to make the target "bigger". Falloff plays a role past your optimal, and you will be missing even if you track perfectly and if your gun's resolution matches the target. Falloff increases your miss chance all the way down to zero, once at optimal + 2x falloff. Tracking computers also help with increasing your optimal. Edit: Added falloff info and tracking computers.
AntonioBanderas	Posted - 2007.05.04 07:17:00 - [29] Edited by: AntonioBanderas on 04/05/2007 07:15:08 Originally by: Slayton Ford If your really new to guns, get a rifter w/ 1500 or 200mm ACs and go do some lvl2's in it. Rifter is a great learning ship for both guns and minmatar in general. You think I could survive in rifter? Could you share some basic tactics? Before crusers (caracal, rupture) I used to fly Merlin, and I used hit and run, but kept my distance (hybrids + missiles) while tanking NPC damage. As i understand, Rifter should be used for high orbit at high speed, then dive in to low orbut still in high speed, then back up again, right? I kind of feel naked without tank... And i'm kind of reluctant to risk my implants, since I'm new and can't afford new ones (or jump clones).
smallgreenblur Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.04 10:40:00 - [30] Originally by: AntonioBanderas Edited by: AntonioBanderas on 04/05/2007 07:15:08 Originally by: Slayton Ford If your really new to guns, get a rifter w/ 1500 or 200mm ACs and go do some lvl2's in it. Rifter is a great learning ship for both guns and minmatar in general. You think I could survive in rifter? Could you share some basic tactics? Before crusers (caracal, rupture) I used to fly Merlin, and I used hit and run, but kept my distance (hybrids + missiles) while tanking NPC damage. As i understand, Rifter should be used for high orbit at high speed, then dive in to low orbut still in high speed, then back up again, right? I kind of feel naked without tank... And i'm kind of reluctant to risk my implants, since I'm new and can't afford new ones (or jump clones). NPCs don't pod you, so sit in Highsec space and learn. Plenty of rifter setups on forums, I would go with autos, speed and an armor tank, but you might even be able to make a respectable passive shield tank setup with s gyro or two in lows. sgb

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