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Rthor Gallente Smugglers Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.05 14:58:00 - [61] Eefrit, if there were defaults they cannot sell the bank without fessing up to them and then they cannot maintain a good face in light of their arrogance towards questions on reporting. They could have covered some or all defaults out of their own pocket or from their management fee. But then it could also mean that even if the books are kosher now they actually may have lost money on BMBE if they sell it to you now because they made the books good with their own money.
Motivated Prophet Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.05.05 15:01:00 - [62] I'm just flailing in the dark here, but perhaps another explanation is that the management fee got paid twice that month, i.e., to two different people? If so, that's a pretty crappy way to do business, and it's certainly unconscionable not to report it. The thread title is a bit inflammatory, yes. But aren't we losing our path a bit here? EVEN IF we assume Eefrit is Satan incarnate, so long as the FACTS of what he presented are true (i.e., he may have left something very important out, but didn't put anything untrue in), there's something rotten in the state of Denmark. Now, hate him all you want, claim he's doing this for his own benefit in some way, fine. For purposes of this paragraph, hell, I'll even stipulate that he is! But even when a mass-murderer in jail accuses another criminal of stealing a pack of gum, there is an investigation. Crimes witnessed are not negated by the crimes of the accuser. So, again to repeat my logic here: 1. Eefrit is not explicitly, outright lying. 1a. Discrepancies as cited by Eefrit are factual. 1b. The discrepancies caused a shareholder loss. 2. BMBE is under an obligation to report its finances with a modicum of accuracy. 2a. Stipulated: That small variations, which in Eve I'll even allow to be up to 10% of a company's value, do not constitute corporate malfeasance. 2b. They would be under an obligation to report a loss on the scale Eefrit is describing. 3. The opportunity to even observe a loss of this scale is rare, and the most must be made of any such opportunity. 3a. Accusations of obloquy should be withheld barring plain motive or evidence of mendacity. MP -- TINY. Stage 2 IPO, because good things come in pairs.
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.05 16:44:00 - [63] Originally by: Motivated Prophet The thread title is a bit inflammatory, yes. But aren't we losing our path a bit here? EVEN IF we assume Eefrit is Satan incarnate, so long as the FACTS of what he presented are true (i.e., he may have left something very important out, but didn't put anything untrue in), there's something rotten in the state of Denmark. The Netherlands (or wherever Eefrit is from) is the only den if iniquity here. The issue is not anything Tornsoul has done that is particularly untoward (though a decision to do this differnently probably would have been better he never violated anything he promised to do). The issue instead is that Eefrit is accusing someone by posting a question that he already knows the answer to. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.05 16:49:00 - [64] Originally by: Dark Shikari a) Eefrit is lying outright (unlikely). b) Tornsoul is skimming off the top. c) Tornsoul is lying about the number of other BMBE loans and/or the interest they're paying. d) Tornsoul did not notify shareholders about a default that lost BMBE money. e) Tornsoul and/or Eefrit are purposely or unintentionally ignoring an important expense. Don't make the mistake of assuming that all of these things (a + any combination of b-e) are mutually exclusive. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.05 16:58:00 - [65] Originally by: Baun Originally by: Dark Shikari a) Eefrit is lying outright (unlikely). b) Tornsoul is skimming off the top. c) Tornsoul is lying about the number of other BMBE loans and/or the interest they're paying. d) Tornsoul did not notify shareholders about a default that lost BMBE money. e) Tornsoul and/or Eefrit are purposely or unintentionally ignoring an important expense. Don't make the mistake of assuming that all of these things (a + any combination of b-e) are mutually exclusive. Of course. --23 Member-- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio!
Motivated Prophet Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.05.05 17:59:00 - [66] Originally by: Baun The issue is not anything Tornsoul has done that is particularly untoward (though a decision to do this differnently probably would have been better he never violated anything he promised to do). The issue instead is that Eefrit is accusing someone by posting a question that he already knows the answer to. Two possibilities: 1) You are certain that Eefrit already knows, and (by extension) that he is posting this just to discredit BMBE. 1a) It is therefore acceptable to EVEMail Eefrit the details of what he already knows, as he has asked you to do. 2) You are not certain Eefrit already knows. 2a) It is therefore NOT acceptable for you to insist on your accusation that Eefrit knows. Pick a path and tread it. MP -- TINY. Stage 2 IPO, because good things come in pairs.
Tami Auryn Natural Evolution	Posted - 2007.05.05 18:20:00 - [67] Edited by: Tami Auryn on 05/05/2007 18:21:43 Now this is my kind of thread :) after getting back home yesterday look what I found. So :) Ladies and Gentlemen are you are to know what everyone knows that the other person knows and that they know but wont tell ehehe. I have posted it before, it's quite surprinsing how BIG members will speak about this sort of things given the proper incentives. But before i give it up (once again), I thank Baun for labeling me BMBE enemy number one :D \o/ yay So here is the secret: Just before the devs patched the bug where people could carry stuff inside the skif cargo in their carriers, BMBE received 2 skif bpos as collateral for a 30b loan. And ofc that loan was defaulted, this happened autumm last year or something (bad memory), since then TS has been lying to cover it up. BMBE does NOT have 100b+, it has 70b+ and 2 skif bpos hidden under TS matress. You guys should hear what a ex. BIG member said about TS and t2 bpos, all ex. BIG members have been robbed of them by TS, if you lend your bpos to the corp you NEVER ever get them back. Another something from TS. Tami at your service protecting the public from public scams :)
Sortiario Fair Trade Organization	Posted - 2007.05.05 18:27:00 - [68] Originally by: Shar Tegral To be quite honest I dread treading in here because this is nothing more than a calculated quagmire. A bit of drama that will never have any real ending until all instigating parties have gotten what bits of treasure only they themselves see from it. Of course this is the Eve Forums and some people just sit down with a bag of popcorn delighting in the view, and participation, of this kind of thing. For some of us Eve provides us with the entertainment through a variety of mechanisms in and out of game. For others, it does not have that pleasant level of objectivity that sane people maintain. And then there are some like TornSoul who is mostly a recovering eve addict who has learned some level of distance after many many years of exposure to this environment and this community. Instead of adding to the controversy here by adding any opinions I may have regarding TornSoul, Big, BMBE, or Eefrit I think I'll just qoute another columnist whose stylings into a real life situation, which mirrors this one, is more succinct than I could ever do myself and is very apt for our needs here. Originally by: David Brooks, New York Times ... The conflict of interest charge is out of proportion to the hubbub. But scandals are like that - they are never about what they purport to be about. ... Most scandals are a pretense for members of an establishment to destroy people they don't like. In most scandals, people adjust their standards of rectitude, depending on whether they support or oppose the person at issue. The subject's enemies whip themselves into a fever of theatrical outrage, and the subject's defenders summon up fits of indignation at the lies of the accusers. Scandals are the playgrounds for partisans, and everybody else gets to play the role of junior high school bully, ganging up on whoever seems weakest and most alone. I close with my signature. I think the David Brooks is right. From my experience, this does not only count for scandals - at least here in Denmark. Any participators in a discussion always have X, Y and Z oppinions, and they can never be convinced about anything else, no matter how many facts is put on the table in favor of the other oppinions. The only way to change oppinions nowadays is by playing on the emotional nature of the human being. The leaders know that. This is off-topic though. ___________________ Sortiario Communication Consulting - SCConsult Communication advisory service
Motivated Prophet Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.05.05 18:37:00 - [69] Originally by: Tami Auryn Edited by: Tami Auryn on 05/05/2007 18:21:43 Now this is my kind of thread :) after getting back home yesterday look what I found. So :) Ladies and Gentlemen are you are to know what everyone knows that the other person knows and that they know but wont tell ehehe. I have posted it before, it's quite surprinsing how BIG members will speak about this sort of things given the proper incentives. But before i give it up (once again), I thank Baun for labeling me BMBE enemy number one :D \o/ yay So here is the secret: Just before the devs patched the bug where people could carry stuff inside the skif cargo in their carriers, BMBE received 2 skif bpos as collateral for a 30b loan. And ofc that loan was defaulted, this happened autumm last year or something (bad memory), since then TS has been lying to cover it up. BMBE does NOT have 100b+, it has 70b+ and 2 skif bpos hidden under TS matress. You guys should hear what a ex. BIG member said about TS and t2 bpos, all ex. BIG members have been robbed of them by TS, if you lend your bpos to the corp you NEVER ever get them back. Another something from TS. Tami at your service protecting the public from public scams :) Actually, now that you mention it, I did know about that. But why it hasn't been reported on the balance sheets is, at best, puzzling. And at worst... dare I say, unethical? I, for one, was certainly under the impression that it had been paid off, and that was partly responsible for the terrible dividends that were going on for a couple months there. MP -- TINY. Stage 2 IPO, because good things come in pairs.
Tami Auryn Natural Evolution	Posted - 2007.05.05 18:41:00 - [70] Originally by: Motivated Prophet Actually, now that you mention it, I did know about that. But why it hasn't been reported on the balance sheets is, at best, puzzling. And at worst... dare I say, unethical? I, for one, was certainly under the impression that it had been paid off, and that was partly responsible for the terrible dividends that were going on for a couple months there. MP The dividends where terrible back in the day when it was still 50/50 because TS couldnt be bothered to do anything, people (and me, with another char) actually needed to get loans, I remember camping #big in coldfront for 2 weeks after a audiance with his majisty but he couldnt be bothered to talk on irc or eve (or even log on).

Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:07:00 - [71] It took Tami as the aforementioned "person who hates TS and BMBE even more than Eefrit" a rather long time to find this thread. In any case, what he is saying (excluding the vitriolic hyperbole concering BIG) is what happened. This happened a LONG LONG time ago (almost 1 year I think). Of course, it is unclear how much money is actually in the coffers available to be loaned becuase BIG was producing from those BPOs and placing profits back in the BMBE fund and was probably doing the same from their management fee and the reinvestment has been going on the entire time. Since that part of the information is out I might as well say the rest. Eefrit has known for at least 1-2 weeks that BMBE does not have full collateral. When he "wanted to buyout" BMBE he discussed this with Ray and Ray told him exactly that. As such, this entire thread has been one giant lie. Eefrit already knew the answer to this question and was willing to insinuate in any case that Tornsoul is stealing from the BMBE. A moment's reflection by anyone with a brain will indicate why this neccesarily must be the case (independent of the evemail confirming this which I will post with permission from the sender); Eefrit would never offer to buyout an operation unless he recieved confirmation of the total assets of that operation. He asked and was told. He knew this and made this thread anyway. He is a liar. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Rthor Gallente Smugglers Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:08:00 - [72] Hmm then it looks like chickens are about to come home to roost.
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:11:00 - [73] Originally by: Motivated Prophet Actually, now that you mention it, I did know about that. But why it hasn't been reported on the balance sheets is, at best, puzzling. And at worst... dare I say, unethical? I, for one, was certainly under the impression that it had been paid off, and that was partly responsible for the terrible dividends that were going on for a couple months there. MP I think TS made a bad decision at the outset not making this publically known. That said, it wasn't really hidden because if you go back and look at the montly reports you will see several times where both Tami and myself ask about the status of the default (I honestly don't remember which months these were but I think it was June-August of 2006). Obviously the extent to which I am perturbed by this is diminished by the fact that I have known about this for so long. I'd be reasonably unhappy if I were a shareholder who did not know about this. That said, anything unethical about not reporting something you never promised to report is completely dwarfed by the outright lie that this thread has been. TS made a bad decision but he never lied and he never stole anything. Eefrit lied in an attempt to destroy someone else's company and gain their business. If the former is unethical then the latter is downright outrageous and despicable. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:15:00 - [74] Originally by: Motivated Prophet 1a) It is therefore acceptable to EVEMail Eefrit the details of what he already knows, as he has asked you to do. This is a moot point now, but it mistifies me that you actually believed that this would somehow solve the problem. If I know Eefrit is lying (which he is and has been consistently throughout this thread) I cannot see how that would be even addressed, much less resolve, by emailing him and telling him what he is lying about. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Takahashi Arran coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:18:00 - [75] So either Eefrit was stupid, or lying as I understand it? neither bodes particularly well for him. OFC its not great for BMBE either but they wern't exactly everybodies favourite corp before either.
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:21:00 - [76] Originally by: Takahashi Arran So either Eefrit was stupid, or lying as I understand it? neither bodes particularly well for him. OFC its not great for BMBE either but they wern't exactly everybodies favourite corp before either. Thats a decent way to sum this all up. The way in which the dividends have been coming for the last year will still be the way in which they will be coming in the future (although they should go up steadily). The expectations of BMBE shareholders are essentially unmodified by this because it happened almost (or more than?) ONE YEAR ago. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Rthor Gallente Smugglers Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:21:00 - [77] Originally by: Takahashi Arran So either Eefrit was stupid, or lying as I understand it? neither bodes particularly well for him. OFC its not great for BMBE either but they wern't exactly everybodies favourite corp before either. Actually its more like TS and Baun were scamming.
Sortiario Fair Trade Organization	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:27:00 - [78] The new information put forth into play opens up new discussions and closes some others. Note that TS has set up another thread in this forum, adressing a report later today. I'm looking forward to get all this sorted out, and final versions of the events from all implied parties; especially of course Eefrit and TornSoul. ___________________ Sortiario Communication Consulting - SCConsult Communication advisory service
SonOfAGhost Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.05.05 21:01:00 - [79] Originally by: Baun the outright lie that this thread has been. You drone on like a politician, lots of words but no substance, so let's stick to the core, the rest is just fluff. Thread title: Is TornSoul stealing from / mismanaging / lying about BMBE? Stealing: From investors? Unknown but extremely suspicious. From borrowers by misrepresenting the interest as has been explained to you previously ad nauseum? Absolutely and thus a precedent of loose morals adding to the suspicion. Mismanaging: Obviously. Lying: A lie of omission is still a lie, particularly on such a grand scale. The defaulted loan from the summer does NOT explain for the money missing in December and since. There has been more than enough time to have made up for it several times over. There is no question that poor/mis-managment prior to Ray picking up the slack has caused BMBE to not make as much as it should have in that time, but that's not the same as not making any recovery at all. We all know you don't like Eefrit and you don't want him to buy out BMBE. Fine post about why you don't want him to buy BMBE in that thread. Start a new thread flaming him somewhere else and stop hijacking this one for your personal vendetta. I don't know why you don't like him. I don't much care either, because whether you like him or not, and regardless of motives, he's made valid points. Something you have completely failed to do thus far as you allow your hatred to cloud your prespective and judgement. If you cared about your investment 1/2 as much as you care about tearing a strip off Eefrit you should have been the one that made this thread. Maybe you don't care about your isk 'because it's just a game'. No, that can't be it, you're clearly very emotional about the game. So why aren't your posts more along the lines of: 'I don't like Eefrit, but nobody's wrong all the time, TS has some explaining to do.'? I don't know how Eefrit feels about having a fanboi so obsessed with him, following him around and trying to hijack every thread he starts. I suspect your pushing the limits of forum behaviour though. Eefrit is the OP of this thread, not the subject, if you can't stay on topic, make a thread with on topic you want to talk about.
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.05 21:43:00 - [80] Originally by: SonOfAGhost The defaulted loan from the summer does NOT explain for the money missing in December and since. There has been more than enough time to have made up for it several times over. Thats not true even remotely. Eefrit knew the answer to the question he posed in this thread. He claimed ignorance to insinuate that someone else was a thief and profit off of destroying their reputation. The premise of this thread is a lie. Eefrit is a liar. The Enemy's Gate is Down

Markessa Hrethnor	Posted - 2007.05.05 21:54:00 - [81] i have to ask -- with the way bmbe is run, the lack of communication, the mysterious ever changing vision of ceo getting lots of cash, etc... why have all of you invested so much isk into this endeavor? more importantly, why have all of you left said isk in this endeavor?
Tami Auryn Natural Evolution	Posted - 2007.05.05 21:56:00 - [82] Originally by: Baun Originally by: SonOfAGhost The defaulted loan from the summer does NOT explain for the money missing in December and since. There has been more than enough time to have made up for it several times over. Thats not true even remotely. Eefrit knew the answer to the question he posed in this thread. He claimed ignorance to insinuate that someone else was a thief and profit off of destroying their reputation. The premise of this thread is a lie. Eefrit is a liar. While eefrit might have lied to expose TS in this thread. TS has been lying all this month, and covering up something that hurts all the shareholders, and in all this time has done nothing or very little to fix it. Stop trying to make the detail of eefrits lie to expose TS into something it's not in order to derail this thread. This thread is about TS lying all this months, the cover up, him hurting all the shareholders and doing nothing or very little to fix it. Not to mention his negative/bad way of running BMBE that made it the worst run bussiness of IPOs. Again i say this, this thread is about the above and not about a simple lie in this thread in order to expose a much bigger lie and harm.
Tami Auryn Natural Evolution	Posted - 2007.05.05 21:58:00 - [83] Originally by: Markessa Hrethnor i have to ask -- with the way bmbe is run, the lack of communication, the mysterious ever changing vision of ceo getting lots of cash, etc... why have all of you invested so much isk into this endeavor? more importantly, why have all of you left said isk in this endeavor? Even if everyone wanted to back out, there's not 100b to repay everyone. And TS would not go for it.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:02:00 - [84] Originally by: Tami Auryn Even if everyone wanted to back out, there's not 100b to repay everyone. And TS would not go for it. the way it seems, it's a lot of people who have been invested for a LONG time... why haven't those people just put the shares up for sale someplace and cut the perceived losses? i mean, there's obvious supporters of bmbe around, i'm sure they'd go for buying some more shares, otherwise, they don't believe what they type, or they're just alts making good/bad posts about bmbe to get a feel for what people think.
Eefrit Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:03:00 - [85] Originally by: Tami Auryn Just before the devs patched the bug where people could carry stuff inside the skif cargo in their carriers, BMBE received 2 skif bpos as collateral for a 30b loan. And ofc that loan was defaulted, this happened autumm last year or something (bad memory), since then TS has been lying to cover it up. BMBE does NOT have 100b+, it has 70b+ and 2 skif bpos hidden under TS matress. Thanks for the information Tami. Would you mind telling us where you recieved this information, as it was patently not available to the general public and goes way beyond the level of hints that I recieved from various people. Essentially I would like to know how accurate and/or reliable this information is. To Baun: As much as I am tempted to get into a flame war with you, lets both be adults about this and stick to the topic at hand.Most of you claim stems from the belief that Ray gave me this exact information and that he gave it to me before my offer on BMBE. If Ray chooses to do so, I give my permission for him to post the IRC logs (the only way we ever talk) between us and clear up the issue. You are free to create a new thread where you show me to be the spawn of satan and an evil murderer that eats babies for breakfast, but as per the forum rules could you please keep this thread on topic. Sincerely, Eefrit
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:14:00 - [86] Originally by: Eefrit You are free to create a new thread where you show me to be the spawn of satan and an evil murderer that eats babies for breakfast, but as per the forum rules could you please keep this thread on topic. You mean just like you tried to do with this thread and Tornsoul? Your credibility is completely on point in this thread. I will discuss the matter as I choose to. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Tami Auryn Natural Evolution	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:19:00 - [87] Edited by: Tami Auryn on 05/05/2007 22:16:50 Eefrit, I recall reading about this first way way back in a reply to one of the BMBE threads, that spured some more replies, after that it was talked on a channel in eve. And more blanks where filled in as this has been mentioned by me a couple times already and has had more replies. Also Baun has confirmed this to be the case, one might also ask where did found out about it ? And maybe i just have a spy in BIG (and a few other large corporations by that matter, for example I could tell you some stories about BoB but wait everyone already knows about them ehehe) :)
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:26:00 - [88] Originally by: Tami Auryn This thread is about TS lying all this months, the cover up, him hurting all the shareholders and doing nothing or very little to fix it. Not to mention his negative/bad way of running BMBE that made it the worst run bussiness of IPOs. I have 1 bmbe share. I am, at best, a sometimes reader of these forums. (Love\Hate relationship) I knew of this default. I can't begin to tell you when I learned of it but it most definitely had to have been through some public venue as I don't congregate with the financial types nor Big. Originally by: Tami Auryn Again i say this, this thread is about the above and not about a simple lie in this thread in order to expose a much bigger lie and harm. You are quite right. The matter is whether TS has been involved in any malfeasance. As of yet there has only been suggestions, accusations, and restatement of various peoples (non share holders ironically) ongoing displeasure with BMBE. Yes, this was a smoking gun. Long ago when it was smoking and when it was loaded with BB's. If this is the sum of the issue, good lord what a waste of time this entire thread has been. The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it. Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:26:00 - [89] Originally by: Baun Originally by: Eefrit You are free to create a new thread where you show me to be the spawn of satan and an evil murderer that eats babies for breakfast, but as per the forum rules could you please keep this thread on topic. You mean just like you tried to do with this thread and Tornsoul? Your credibility is completely on point in this thread. I will discuss the matter as I choose to. It seems to me that your credibility is on point too Baun. You apparently knew all about this situation and you didn't bring it to anyones attention? You specifically tried to keep anyone from finding out. You refused to let anyone know. Obviously if you didn't think it was a big deal you would have made the knowledge public. It doesn't matter who exposes fraud/lies... they are just as bad no matter who exposes them. And it seems to me that all your claims throughout this thread have been lies. Eefrit did not know the details you claimed he did throughout. You actually owe him an apology imo... for slandering him throughout and then it turns out that you were wrong. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:31:00 - [90] Originally by: Shadarle You apparently knew all about this situation and you didn't bring it to anyones attention? You specifically tried to keep anyone from finding out. You refused to let anyone know. Obviously if you didn't think it was a big deal you would have made the knowledge public. I knew of this as well. I could've said something but to be quite honest I thought this whole thread was about something else entirely... not some form of necro. Why Baun didn't speak now is upto Baun to answer however this knowledge wasn't secret. It just wasn't flaunted. Major difference. A distinct difference. The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it. Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D



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