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Is TornSoul stealing from / mismanaging / lying about BMBE?

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Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.04 23:08:00 - [31] Originally by: Eefrit * We know you say I know this * I say I can not see it from any post and have not had the question answered from BMBE, so I don't see how I could possibly know this. Are you actually claiming that the only communication you have ever had with BMBE has been on public forums? That would actually directly contradict what you have disclosed concerning the loan you took from the BMBE with an alt. Presuming, however, that you are not making the claim you appear to be making, then the answer is simple; In your direct talks with the BMBE you learned information that completely deflates the premise of this thread. To clarify, are you claiming you never talked with BMBE at all (outside the one time you got a loan from them with an alt) or you are claiming that when you did you learned nothing relevant to your accusations? Quote: Please give us the proof you appear to be convinced you have to support anything you have said so far so that we can all learn from you. I know you don't like me so take the oportunity to show me up as a liar and provide some proof. Sincerely, Eefrit See the above post. Either you are lying or another person is lying. You have a large incentive to lie since it allows you to insinuate information that would destroy confidence in the BMBE and the credibility of those who run it. I cannot think of a single reason why that someone would lie to me about you being told the relevant information. I therefore find it far more likely that you are lying. Of course, who is lying is not actually material to the underlying inquiry. No one has stolen anytying, no one is stealing anything. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.04 23:13:00 - [32] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Baun According to my information you asked a question when inquiring into buying out the BMBE. Regardless of the complete disclosure of why the answer to the question was what it was, that answer neccesarily resolves this entire situation. Then why won't you post the freaking answer?!!! I'm getting anxious and nervous here I am already verging on what I would consider disrespectful to Tornsoul and Ray. The answer to all of this is very simple, but it still sucks. It is their responsibility to address it (as they have been doing, though I don't know to what extent/exactly how) and their choice as to how to do so. That Eefrit deigns to imply what he is, is incomparably worse than the underlying action that caused this situation. To my mind (as someone who knows the answer to this), that is what is more important. The fact that that is true to me despite my level of investment in BMBE relaly should tell you everything you need to know (just maybe not everything you want to know). The Enemy's Gate is Down
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.04 23:48:00 - [33] Originally by: Baun That Eefrit deigns to imply what he is, is incomparably worse than the underlying action that caused this situation. In which case it would be only right to post the underlying action, correct? --23 Member-- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio!
Ionia Advanced Manufacturing	Posted - 2007.05.05 00:12:00 - [34] Baun, you have said 2 things.. 1. You know the answer 2. The answer has been posted publicly If both of these are true, just tell everyone what the answer is, or link us to it. Attacking the poster and deflecting attention away from the question isnt doing BMBE any favours.
Motivated Prophet Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.05.05 00:26:00 - [35] Originally by: Ionia Baun, you have said 2 things.. 1. You know the answer 2. The answer has been posted publicly If both of these are true, just tell everyone what the answer is, or link us to it. Attacking the poster and deflecting attention away from the question isnt doing BMBE any favours. God, I hate myself for doing this, but... /signed That sums up my position exactly. MP -- TINY. Stage 2 IPO, because good things come in pairs.
Marodi Julita Sublime Investment Fund	Posted - 2007.05.05 00:45:00 - [36] Originally by: Ionia Baun, you have said 2 things.. 1. You know the answer 2. The answer has been posted publicly If both of these are true, just tell everyone what the answer is, or link us to it. Attacking the poster and deflecting attention away from the question isnt doing BMBE any favours. /signed Until this information is given and definatively proves otherwise... ...I personally believe Baun is full of crap.
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.05 01:44:00 - [37] Originally by: Ionia Baun, you have said 2 things.. 1. You know the answer 2. The answer has been posted publicly If both of these are true, just tell everyone what the answer is, or link us to it. Attacking the poster and deflecting attention away from the question isnt doing BMBE any favours. I completely appreciate your position, but I am not going to release any information without giving BMBE the chance to do it themselves. The poster deserves to be attacked. He is lying for his own personal gain. He is insinuating that a respected player is a thief when he knows that that is not what has happened here. Do I expect you to believe me without me giving in and telling you what happened and why I am sure about all of this? No. That is not going to prevent me from giving BMBE a chance to do this themselves though. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Marodi Julita Sublime Investment Fund	Posted - 2007.05.05 02:10:00 - [38] Originally by: Baun The poster deserves to be attacked. He is lying for his own personal gain. He is insinuating that a respected player is a thief when he knows that that is not what has happened here. Then why don't you actually prove it instead of just making an oppinion? I can't believe that you are using the supposed evidence as a basis without divulging it. It's reckless to make accusations using evidence you are unwilling, if it even exists, to provide to the populous. If anything, your argument against giving this information gives more credibility to his argument every time you post.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.05 02:36:00 - [39] Originally by: Baun I completely appreciate your position, but I am not going to release any information without giving BMBE the chance to do it themselves. So the information will be posted some time this December? Originally by: Baun The poster deserves to be attacked. He is lying for his own personal gain. He is insinuating that a respected player is a thief when he knows that that is not what has happened here. He's lying, but you won't give us any proof? --23 Member-- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio!
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.05 03:16:00 - [40] Edited by: Baun on 05/05/2007 03:14:11 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Baun I completely appreciate your position, but I am not going to release any information without giving BMBE the chance to do it themselves. So the information will be posted some time this December? :P maybe not even then. It would undoubtedly be faster to fly to Copenhagen and *** at TS until he told you. Quote: Originally by:** Baun The poster deserves to be attacked. He is lying for his own personal gain. He is insinuating that a respected player is a thief when he knows that that is not what has happened here. He's lying, but you won't give us any proof? There is a two-fold problem. First, I don't want to speak for someone else. Second, it is completely unclear what would count as "proof." I have some things that could count as "proof," but if people are going to ***** at me despite the fact that I would be one of the angriest people (more than all thread posters combined I'd imagine) if there were stealing going on then they are likely to simply say that it is not enough "proof." Suffice it to say that I know about as well as I could be expected to (without being someone who runs the BMBE) what the explanation is and that Eefrit is lying about not knowing enough information so as to render his "options" completelely disingenuous. I don't really expect people who don't want to believe me to believe me if I posted "proof." In short, I see many reasons not to do full disclosure (respect for TS and Ray, that its been less than 24 hours since this post was made, that the mob mentality fomented by the op is not likely to create a situation in which people are susceptible to believing me, etc.) and I see very few reasons for full disclosure (the only one would really be to discredit Eefrit, but given the discussion above I find it unlikely that it would have the desired effect). As a result DS, you will have to wait to sate your curiosity for the time being (or bribe me a substantial amount ). The Enemy's Gate is Down

Poochini	Posted - 2007.05.05 03:58:00 - [41] Originally by: Baun There is a two-fold problem. First, I don't want to speak for someone else. Second, it is completely unclear what would count as "proof." I have some things that could count as "proof," but if people are going to ***** at me despite the fact that I would be one of the angriest people (more than all thread posters combined I'd imagine) if there were stealing going on then they are likely to simply say that it is not enough "proof." Suffice it to say that I know about as well as I could be expected to (without being someone who runs the BMBE) what the explanation is and that Eefrit is lying about not knowing enough information so as to render his "options" completelely disingenuous. I don't really expect people who don't want to believe me to believe me if I posted "proof." In short, I see many reasons not to do full disclosure (respect for TS and Ray, that its been less than 24 hours since this post was made, that the mob mentality fomented by the op is not likely to create a situation in which people are susceptible to believing me, etc.) and I see very few reasons for full disclosure (the only one would really be to discredit Eefrit, but given the discussion above I find it unlikely that it would have the desired effect). As a result DS, you will have to wait to sate your curiosity for the time being (or bribe me a substantial amount ). so what you're saying is u know something that Eefrit might or might not be aware of,that might lead to 3 possible outcomes and the reason why you are unwilling to disclose the infomation: 1.we find you lame 2.Eefrit looks stupid(if you're convincing) 3.Tornsoul's reputation is ruined however some of us are completely neutral to the whole thing and i only have reasons to respect you no matter what is said and done
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.05 04:08:00 - [42] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 05/05/2007 04:04:23 Baun, I'd be willing to keep the "answer" secret if you tell me; in response I can confirm or deny your claims in this thread. This would allow a second opinion without disclosing it publicly. --23 Member-- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio!
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.05 04:29:00 - [43] Presuming that your assurance you won't reveal what I would tell you provides sufficient basis for trust, how exactly could you "confirm or deny" anything if you know less than I do? I understand the curiosity of a forum ***** DS (especially one with his fingers in so many pies), but I don't follow your logic on this one. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Lemonx Ascent of Ages Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.05.05 05:42:00 - [44] Edited by: Lemonx on 05/05/2007 05:42:03 Baun has, presumable unintentionally, poured gasoline on the fire started by Eefrit. Eefrit has pretty much destroyed BIG's reputation here, and the only way I see them being able to remedial it is by claiming/proving Eefrit is lying. Whatever happens, this forum has gained some nice drama. * Edit: spelling -- Posting on behalf of myself only, not corp/alliance etc.
Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.05.05 05:50:00 - [45] Originally by: Motivated Prophet Originally by: Ionia Baun, you have said 2 things.. 1. You know the answer 2. The answer has been posted publicly If both of these are true, just tell everyone what the answer is, or link us to it. Attacking the poster and deflecting attention away from the question isnt doing BMBE any favours. God, I hate myself for doing this, but... /signed That sums up my position exactly. MP For what it's worth, I also /signed this. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic
Rthor Gallente Smugglers Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.05 05:56:00 - [46] I think that a question should be asked if any loans have been defaulted on. I do not believe that anybody has fessed up to this. But it must have happened especially since tech 2 BPOs fluctuate in price so at some point there must have been people who sold their BPOs to Tornsoul even though TS thought that they were taking out a loan. And with prices of tech 2 BPOS in the billions that should have eaten up BMBE available capital. If this issue is never addressed then you know nothing about BMBE.
Ricdic Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.05.05 08:28:00 - [47] So exciting. I would love to see TS come in here once and for all, and tell people what is going on. It is amazing that he/she still holds so much support even in lieu of the months of poor response and reporting. I want everyone in business to suceed but I really feel for the BMBE investors out there who have billions invested in what they thought was a relatively secure deal. BMBE just seems to have decided to ignore their shareholders and do their own thing. Considering the insanely large amount of income they personally recieve for this (for effectively doing very little) I feel this is unacceptable. Ray coming on-board has improved shareholder relations a little but communication really needs to be ramped up if BMBE ever hope to be considered an investment option in the future. Hey Baun, cough it up mate Sick of the waits with empire research slots? Use mine!
Barbicane Minmatar	Posted - 2007.05.05 08:28:00 - [48] Originally by: Poochini ... so what you're saying is u know something that Eefrit might or might not be aware of,that might lead to 3 possible outcomes and the reason why you are unwilling to disclose the infomation: 1.we find you lame 2.Eefrit looks stupid(if you're convincing) 3.Tornsoul's reputation is ruined however some of us are completely neutral to the whole thing and i only have reasons to respect you no matter what is said and done @Poochini: If you're going to question the long-standing reputation of other players, at least have the decency to post with your main. The voice of a 10-day alt has no place in this debate. @others: I totally agree with Baun's position that he should give Tournsoul/BMBE a chance to defend themselves before we jump to any conclusions. If they fail to do so within a reasonable time, say 1 week, then I'd like Baun to present what he knows.
Sortiario Fair Trade Organization	Posted - 2007.05.05 08:36:00 - [49] Originally by: Verite Rendition Originally by: Motivated Prophet Originally by: Ionia Baun, you have said 2 things.. 1. You know the answer 2. The answer has been posted publicly If both of these are true, just tell everyone what the answer is, or link us to it. Attacking the poster and deflecting attention away from the question isnt doing BMBE any favours. God, I hate myself for doing this, but... /signed That sums up my position exactly. MP For what it's worth, I also /signed this. /signed As I've said before, Baun have an interest in defending BMBE and attacking Eefrit if Eefrit is, in fact, right in his presumptions. If Baun really had the answer to all this, he would have posted it. TS and BMBE has had plenty of time to react, but they haven't. To me, it looks like Baun is buying time for BMBE, or possibly just for his own gain in order to let go of his shares. If I am wrong, then post the damn answer! ___________________ Sortiario Communication Consulting - SCConsult Communication advisory service
Barbicane Minmatar	Posted - 2007.05.05 09:26:00 - [50] Originally by: Sortiario ...TS and BMBE has had plenty of time to react, but they haven't. To me, it looks like Baun is buying time for BMBE, or possibly just for his own gain in order to let go of his shares... Lol, it's been approx 18 hours since this thread was started. That's an eternity for forum *****s like us, but some people actually don't read the forums more than once a week Please give them a couple of days at least. For the record, I don't have any particular interests in BMBE, but I strongly believe in hearing both sides of a story before I make my judgement. If Eefrit had come up with all this in January when it happened, he would be my hero, but doing it now shortly after presenting a plan to take over BMBE... well it doesn't look good at all.

Ricdic Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.05.05 10:07:00 - [51] Edit : Removed Don't really want to get into this argument Sick of the waits with empire research slots? Use mine!
Sortiario Fair Trade Organization	Posted - 2007.05.05 10:53:00 - [52] Originally by: Barbicane Originally by: Sortiario ...TS and BMBE has had plenty of time to react, but they haven't. To me, it looks like Baun is buying time for BMBE, or possibly just for his own gain in order to let go of his shares... Lol, it's been approx 18 hours since this thread was started. That's an eternity for forum *****s like us, but some people actually don't read the forums more than once a week Please give them a couple of days at least. For the record, I don't have any particular interests in BMBE, but I strongly believe in hearing both sides of a story before I make my judgement. If Eefrit had come up with all this in January when it happened, he would be my hero, but doing it now shortly after presenting a plan to take over BMBE... well it doesn't look good at all. You're right that they haven't got any chance to respond to this thread. But if Eefrit has been trying to get in touch with TS for weeks, then from my point of view, TS has had plenty of time to seize this before it was to be public. ___________________ Sortiario Communication Consulting - SCConsult Communication advisory service
Eefrit Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2007.05.05 11:11:00 - [53] Originally by: Barbicane Lol, it's been approx 18 hours since this thread was started. That's an eternity for forum ***s like us, but some people actually don't read the forums more than once a week Please give them a couple of days at least. Hi Barbicane, been a while. I would like to answer two points specifically: 1) I have not made any accusations. I have asked a question and laid out my reasoning as clearly as I can in as objective a way as possible. 2) These questions were first brought to the attention of BIG members (TornSoul is never avaialble) in early February. The only response I got from any of them was "there is nothing dodgy going on but we can't tell you what it is". I then formally gave notice to TornSoul (through Ray McCormack) over a week ago that I would be posting this thread if an answer was not forthcomming. I find it interesting that I am on one side being held as a villian for not giving BMBE time to respond and on the other hand a villian for not posting earlier. Before posting this I sought advice as to whether or not I should post it from a few well respected and level headed players, all of which agreed that should TornSoul not respond that I should post the facts. That is what I have done. What should I have done? Kept quiet? Tried for another two months? For the record the takeover offer to BMBE (as per my original post on the takeover) had already expired** before I posted this thread, so I do not see where I get financial gain from it. Sincerely, Eefrit
Eefrit Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2007.05.05 11:22:00 - [54] Originally by: Rthor I think that a question should be asked if any loans have been defaulted on. I do not believe that anybody has fessed up to this. But it must have happened especially since tech 2 BPOs fluctuate in price so at some point there must have been people who sold their BPOs to Tornsoul even though TS thought that they were taking out a loan. And with prices of tech 2 BPOS in the billions that should have eaten up BMBE available capital. If this issue is never addressed then you know nothing about BMBE. Rthor, that was one of my initial thoughts but so far the only mention of a default that I can find is from over a year ago in which TornSoul reported they would be selling the BPOs off and distributing/reporting on any profit or loss. There has been no report that I can find so I assume the Isk was recovered. If there was a default of the magnitude we are talking about in December, then surely that would have featured in the December report? If you can show me to something that I am missing then I would apreciate it. Either way, if this were to be the case it would fall under option d) in my initial post, namely "d) TornSoul is not reporting accurately to all investors". Sincerely, Eefrit
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.05 11:53:00 - [55] The only thing you are doing is hurting your own reputation Eefrit. After this thread I can say for sure that I will never let my isk within 20 jumps from you and I will suggest to everyone of my friends to stay away from you as well. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Sortiario Fair Trade Organization	Posted - 2007.05.05 12:12:00 - [56] Originally by: Hoshi The only thing you are doing is hurting your own reputation Eefrit. After this thread I can say for sure that I will never let my isk within 20 jumps from you and I will suggest to everyone of my friends to stay away from you as well. ... But even by stating so, you have not pointed out any errors or discrepancies in his post, hence making it unlikely for me to believe, that you haven't got interest in keeping the reputation of BMBE intact. ___________________ Sortiario Communication Consulting - SCConsult Communication advisory service
Eefrit Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2007.05.05 12:23:00 - [57] Originally by: Hoshi The only thing you are doing is hurting your own reputation Eefrit. After this thread I can say for sure that I will never let my isk within 20 jumps from you and I will suggest to everyone of my friends to stay away from you as well. I'm sorry to hear that Hoshi. What would you have had me do? Keep quiet even though I am convinced there is a discrepancy somewhere? I have asked a question that should be simple enough to clarify if there is no discrepancy. If that is the case I will be the first person to make a song and dance about how I was wrong if in fact somehow none of the options I have proposed are true. Would you kindly do me the service of giving me some specifics of where I went wrong here and how I should have aproached this given my repeated attempts to get some sort of clarity on this from BMBE? I look forward to hearing what you would have done differently. Sincerely, Eefrit
Lypert Zemindar Supermacy	Posted - 2007.05.05 12:57:00 - [58] Edited by: Lypert on 05/05/2007 12:56:15 Eerfit, personally the forum topic title is a bit misleading. Maybe have something like "BMBE fund discrepancy?" If you are wishing to help the EVE community for 'good', don't accuse somebody of scamming/stealing until they have had a chance for a reply. I would like to know the answer too, /signed -------------------------------------------------- Zemindar Supermacy is recruiting
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.05 13:11:00 - [59] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 05/05/2007 13:07:15 The title is a bit accusatory, but it is correct; the evidence provided means one of the following is going on: a) Eefrit is lying outright (unlikely). b) Tornsoul is skimming off the top. c) Tornsoul is lying about the number of other BMBE loans and/or the interest they're paying. d) Tornsoul did not notify shareholders about a default that lost BMBE money. e) Tornsoul and/or Eefrit are purposely or unintentionally ignoring an important expense. --23 Member-- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio!
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.05.05 14:08:00 - [60] To be quite honest I dread treading in here because this is nothing more than a calculated quagmire. A bit of drama that will never have any real ending until all instigating parties have gotten what bits of treasure only they themselves see from it. Of course this is the Eve Forums and some people just sit down with a bag of popcorn delighting in the view, and participation, of this kind of thing. For some of us Eve provides us with the entertainment through a variety of mechanisms in and out of game. For others, it does not have that pleasant level of objectivity that sane people maintain. And then there are some like TornSoul who is mostly a recovering eve addict who has learned some level of distance after many many years of exposure to this environment and this community. Instead of adding to the controversy here by adding any opinions I may have regarding TornSoul, Big, BMBE, or Eefrit I think I'll just qoute another columnist whose stylings into a real life situation, which mirrors this one, is more succinct than I could ever do myself and is very apt for our needs here. Originally by: David Brooks, New York Times ... The conflict of interest charge is out of proportion to the hubbub. But scandals are like that - they are never about what they purport to be about. ... Most scandals are a pretense for members of an establishment to destroy people they don't like. In most scandals, people adjust their standards of rectitude, depending on whether they support or oppose the person at issue. The subject's enemies whip themselves into a fever of theatrical outrage, and the subject's defenders summon up fits of indignation at the lies of the accusers. Scandals are the playgrounds for partisans, and everybody else gets to play the role of junior high school bully, ganging up on whoever seems weakest and most alone. I close with my signature. The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it. Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D



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