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Is TornSoul stealing from / mismanaging / lying about BMBE?

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Eefrit Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2007.05.04 14:34:00 - [1] As melodramatic as the topic sounds, it is essentially what I am asking. I have put forward this question to TornSoul through BMBE (as TornSoul himself is never available directly) over a week ago with the exact information I am going to now publicly ask. I suggested he answers it voluntarily without my having to force the answer and make something public of it, but his complete lack of response is a clear indication that he will not. I will now present the facts as objectively as possible: 1) At the end of November I contacted TornSoul with one of my alts about taking out a BMBE Loan. I was told there was well over 70 Bill Isk available at a rate of 2.8% per week if I took out a loan of 60 Bill Isk. 2) At the start of December I took out a BMBE loan using one of my alts of 50 Bill Isk at a rate of 3.0%. The loan was effective from 07 December 2006. I was told that the increased rate was due to BMBE having loaned out almost all its Isk. 3) During the month of December I paid a total of 6.0 Bill Isk interest into BMBE. However only 5.14 Bill Isk of that should have been for the month of December. (I paid some in advance as I would be away) 4) The total BMBE Isk should have been at least 100 Bill Isk 5) At the time BMBE was operating on a sliding interest scale with a minimum real interest rate of 2.5%. 6) If we assume that all the Isk other than my loan was loaned out at the minimum, then the profit for BMBE in december should have been 10.14 Billion Isk (5.14 Billion from myself and 5 Billion from other customers). 7) According to the December report from BMBE the distribution was as follows: Dividends (40% of profit): 2,481,280,000 Isk Re-investment (20% of profit): 1,240,640,000 Isk Management fee (not explicity stated but should be the same as the dividends at: 2,481,280,000 Isk This gives a total declared profit of: 6,203,200,000 Isk 8) That effectively means that BMBE is declaring that the other more than 50 Bill Isk (which I was told was all loaned out by TornSoul) brought in just over 1 Bill Isk in interest. (1,063,200,000 Isk). That is where the facts end. There are only 4 options that I can see to explain this discrepancy: a) TornSoul is skimming off the top b) Tornsoul is for some reason turning down loans which is loosing Isk for shareholders c) TornSoul has done something else with the Isk. On this point I find it strange that the total Isk available for loans is never reported on. d) TornSoul is not reporting accurately to all investors BMBE is a public company I think it right that TornSoul answer these questions here. Please refrain from flaming and derailling the thread - lets rather keep it on topic and try get some answers. Sincerely, Eefrit
Takahashi Arran coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.04 15:01:00 - [2] hmm far be it from the cynic in me to suggest you had this information since December but are only using it now to aid in your attempt to buy out BMBE bu sowing distrust amongst shareholders of BMBE. If your actions were for the public good surely you should have done this in January? regardless it is a valid question that needs to be answered.
Roemy Schneider Swingline LLC	Posted - 2007.05.04 15:04:00 - [3] as you started 6) with: "If we assume that all the Isk other than my loan was loaned out at the minimum" i see lots of room for refuge here: "well over 70bil available" - so 20something bil were parked that week for up to 5% a lil' shaky basis when there's a back door open. but still; it's true: the more numbers, the less risk of mistrust (unless you really screw around) so i strongly recommend BMBE to clarify. however, eef, you came up with this four months later - the month you start a take-over. this might bring the average joe to believe you otherwise would have covered it up. why so late?
Eefrit Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2007.05.04 15:18:00 - [4] Originally by: Roemy Schneider as you started 6) with: "If we assume that all the Isk other than my loan was loaned out at the minimum" i see lots of room for refuge here: "well over 70bil available" - so 20something bil were parked that week for up to 5% a lil' shaky basis when there's a back door open. but still; it's true: the more numbers, the less risk of mistrust (unless you really screw around) so i strongly recommend BMBE to clarify. however, eef, you came up with this four months later - the month you start a take-over. this might bring the average joe to believe you otherwise would have covered it up. why so late? Two good questions. 1) I assume that because I contacted BMBE shortly afterwards to find out if they had any other Isk available as I had been offered a good BPO cheap. TornSoul declined on the basis of having loaned out the Isk. Hence my assumption is based on the assumption that TornSoul was not lying to me. I thought I had put that in the initial post but obviously I had not. 2) I'm sure a lot of people have similar information but to be frank I never took the time and effort to analyze it and compare it to the reports until I was considering my offer to BMBE. Also I have been trying to get details from TornSoul for quite a period of time but thus far I have had no success. Regards, Eefrit
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:00:00 - [5] Considering the interest rates BMBE charges, I've always found their profits mysteriously low... --23 Member-- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio!
Erfnam Time Cube Syndicate	Posted - 2007.05.04 17:54:00 - [6] I can't remember who said it first, but it was stated that the next type of scam to worry about is the CEO who is skimming. I hope this is just a case of giving below minimum rates to friends instead of skimming, but I wouldn't be surprised at this point. Capital Sales
Poochini	Posted - 2007.05.04 18:46:00 - [7] how did you get him to lend your alt 50 billion isk?im very interested in borrowing some too.And why 50 bil?Trying to pay off 6 bil interest a month(200 mil a day) must be insane considering the higher your capital the harder it is to make a certain percentage also...i noticed some things in your story doesnt make sense. 3% of 50 bil should be 1.5 bil per month,why did you pay 6 bil interest,which is 4 month's interest,when you had the loan for less than 30 days?
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:08:00 - [8] Edited by: Baun on 04/05/2007 19:07:15 Wow Eefrit, you are scum. You know the exact answer to this question yet you are going to paint this like there is stealing going on. Shame on you. You could just reveal what you know and get some of the effect that you desire but instead you have to lie (or at least ask a completely disingenuous question). The Enemy's Gate is Down
Sortiario Fair Trade Organization	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:34:00 - [9] Originally by: Baun Edited by: Baun on 04/05/2007 19:07:15 Wow Eefrit, you are scum. You know the exact answer to this question yet you are going to paint this like there is stealing going on. Shame on you. You could just reveal what you know and get some of the effect that you desire but instead you have to lie (or at least ask a completely disingenuous question). Your answer implies that you, too, know the exact answer to this question. Tell me, how come you can critizise him for not giving it, if you don't do it yourself? I think Eefrit clearly has a point in his post - this does not make sense, unless one of the four things he states has happened. ___________________ Sortiario Communication Consulting - SCConsult Communication advisory service
Eefrit Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:37:00 - [10] Originally by: Baun Edited by: Baun on 04/05/2007 19:07:15 Wow Eefrit, you are scum. You know the exact answer to this question yet you are going to paint this like there is stealing going on. Shame on you. You could just reveal what you know and get some of the effect that you desire but instead you have to lie (or at least ask a completely disingenuous question). Baun, seeing as you are so convinced I know the answer to this would you mind sharing with myself and the rest of the Eve community exactly what it is that I supposedly know? On another note, I have tried to keep things civil and would apreciate you showing a little constraint in your posts. Sincerely, Eefrit

Marodi Julita Sublime Investment Fund	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:39:00 - [11] Originally by: Poochini also...i noticed some things in your story doesnt make sense. 3% of 50 bil should be 1.5 bil per month,why did you pay 6 bil interest,which is 4 month's interest,when you had the loan for less than 30 days? Yeah... could you shed some light on that?
Eefrit Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:43:00 - [12] Originally by: Marodi Julita Originally by: Poochini also...i noticed some things in your story doesnt make sense. 3% of 50 bil should be 1.5 bil per month,why did you pay 6 bil interest,which is 4 month's interest,when you had the loan for less than 30 days? Yeah... could you shed some light on that? Thanks for pointing out the abiguity there. BMBE charges interest per week. So 3% interest is 3% per week and not per month. Sincerely, Eefrit
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:51:00 - [13] Originally by: Baun Wow Eefrit, you are scum. You know the exact answer to this question yet you are going to paint this like there is stealing going on. Shame on you. You could just reveal what you know and get some of the effect that you desire but instead you have to lie (or at least ask a completely disingenuous question). If you know so much, why won't you tell us? --23 Member-- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio!
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:03:00 - [14] Originally by: Sortiario Originally by: Baun Edited by: Baun on 04/05/2007 19:07:15 snip You know the exact answer to this question yet you are going to paint this like there is stealing going on. Shame on you. You could just reveal what you know and get some of the effect that you desire but instead you have to lie (or at least ask a completely disingenuous question). Your answer implies that you, too, know the exact answer to this question. Tell me, how come you can critizise him for not giving it, if you don't do it yourself? This should not be particularly mistifying to anyone. I can criticize Eefrit because he decided to ask a question he already knows the answer and did so publically so he can insinuate something he knows to be untrue. He did this for self serving reasons; He doesn't care about the shareholders of BMBE, he just wants to get isk that has already been collected in a public entity and eliminate competition. Incidentally, as a shareholder of BMBE it is my isk that is involved and not Eefrit's. If there were stealing going on I would be the one making a fuss of this; not him. He has held this information back until he decided it would be to his benefit to "release" it. Unfortuntately, he also neglected to mention that he already knows that the answer is not nearly so sinister as he is implying. As a shareholder of BMBE I am not happy about this, but I am even less happy that someone has decided to try to derail the business by making a series of disingenuous public posts. The Enemy's Gate is Down

Eldo Davip Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:03:00 - [15] Alright gentlemen let's keep it civil in here. Negative feedback can be very useful, provided that it is presented in a civil, factual manner. Don't resort to flaming :) ___ Email Us \| Forum Rules \| Our Website EvE +NLINE - T+TALHELLDEATH SUPPORTER

Eefrit Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:17:00 - [16] Originally by: Baun He has held this information back until he decided it would be to his benefit to "release" it. Unfortuntately, he also neglected to mention that he already knows that the answer is not nearly so sinister as he is implying... Baun, seeing as TornSoul has yet to answer any of my questions to him on this, could you please let me know: Firstly what on earth it is that I supposedly know but that I don't know I know. Secondly, how exactly I am supposed to have come by this information if the only person who has it refuses to answer a single question. You can stop saying I know the answer, as we have already seen that. Could you rather tell us all what the answer is and for my sake exactly how it is that I got this answer that I don't believe I have. Sincerely, Eefrit
Pang Grohl Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:30:00 - [17] Eefrit, your timing and execution are either atrocious or exquisite. A few things to consider: You were told that 70 bil was available, then consumed 50 of that approximately a week later. You assume that the other 50 bil was consumed for the entire month of December. It is possible for BMBE to loan out isk for less than a month, making it entirely plausible that the isk available can fluctuate over the course of a month with out the isk loaned earning interest over the full month. Unless TS is willing to provide prediction of weekly isk availability, reporting on the isk available to loan won't be a helpful indicator of the health of the business. I hope that TS does answer your accusations, as I for one would like to see this drama fade to the background again. Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
Heroldyn	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:37:00 - [18] i find this thread highly entertaining. it has it all, the mystery, the drama and the humor. if there were a thread to be nominated for the oscar awards, this one would be a real favourite. thanks to everyone involved for delivering this unique forum experience.
Eefrit Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:58:00 - [19] Originally by: Pang Grohl You were told that 70 bil was available, then consumed 50 of that approximately a week later. You assume that the other 50 bil was consumed for the entire month of December. It is possible for BMBE to loan out isk for less than a month, making it entirely plausible that the isk available can fluctuate over the course of a month with out the isk loaned earning interest over the full month. The shortest period that BMBE offered loans for at the time was 6 weeks, so unless TornSoul was not keeping to their policy for some customers the loans could not have been for less than 6 weeks. Loans could have ended during the month, but TornSoul told me that they had just taken up new loans, which means they should have been active for all of December and hence profit generating for that period of time. I have honestly tried to get a response form Tornsoul before this post and have not been able to get a single response. This is really the last option left to me to try get one from him. Sincerely, Eefrit
Marodi Julita Sublime Investment Fund	Posted - 2007.05.04 21:03:00 - [20] You realize if you tell the information.. you both claim you can improve your stances. So why dosent one of say it and get it done with? Jeez... you guys are pathetic. I fail to get behind any side of this until this "information" is released.

Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.04 21:24:00 - [21] Originally by: Marodi Julita You realize if you tell the information.. you both claim you can improve your stances. So why dosent one of say it and get it done with? Jeez... you guys are pathetic. I fail to get behind any side of this until this "information" is released. Agreed. Let the missing information into play. --23 Member-- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio!
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.05.04 21:55:00 - [22] Originally by: Baun Originally by: Sortiario Originally by: Baun Edited by: Baun on 04/05/2007 19:07:15 snip You know the exact answer to this question yet you are going to paint this like there is stealing going on. Shame on you. You could just reveal what you know and get some of the effect that you desire but instead you have to lie (or at least ask a completely disingenuous question). Your answer implies that you, too, know the exact answer to this question. Tell me, how come you can critizise him for not giving it, if you don't do it yourself? This should not be particularly mistifying to anyone. I can criticize Eefrit because he decided to ask a question he already knows the answer and did so publically so he can insinuate something he knows to be untrue. He did this for self serving reasons; He doesn't care about the shareholders of BMBE, he just wants to get isk that has already been collected in a public entity and eliminate competition. Incidentally, as a shareholder of BMBE it is my isk that is involved and not Eefrit's. If there were stealing going on I would be the one making a fuss of this; not him. He has held this information back until he decided it would be to his benefit to "release" it. Unfortuntately, he also neglected to mention that he already knows that the answer is not nearly so sinister as he is implying. As a shareholder of BMBE I am not happy about this, but I am even less happy that someone has decided to try to derail the business by making a series of disingenuous public posts. This makes absolutely no sense. You obviously know an explanation to the question that was raise. You claim it is not sinister. If these are both true then why won't you just tell us the explanation instead of just claiming it's all OK. The more you refuse to give the explanation yourself makes this seem even more suspicious. And it doesn't seem that Eefrit knows the answer... so please, enlighten us all. To me it seems like there are several possible explanations of what is going on.... but since no one seems to be providing them it makes me wonder if there is no indeed something more sinister going on. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Sortiario Fair Trade Organization	Posted - 2007.05.04 22:04:00 - [23] Edited by: Sortiario on 04/05/2007 22:03:28 Originally by: Baun Originally by: Sortiario Originally by: Baun Edited by: Baun on 04/05/2007 19:07:15 snip You know the exact answer to this question yet you are going to paint this like there is stealing going on. Shame on you. You could just reveal what you know and get some of the effect that you desire but instead you have to lie (or at least ask a completely disingenuous question). Your answer implies that you, too, know the exact answer to this question. Tell me, how come you can critizise him for not giving it, if you don't do it yourself? This should not be particularly mistifying to anyone. I can criticize Eefrit because he decided to ask a question he already knows the answer and did so publically so he can insinuate something he knows to be untrue. He did this for self serving reasons; He doesn't care about the shareholders of BMBE, he just wants to get isk that has already been collected in a public entity and eliminate competition. Incidentally, as a shareholder of BMBE it is my isk that is involved and not Eefrit's. If there were stealing going on I would be the one making a fuss of this; not him. He has held this information back until he decided it would be to his benefit to "release" it. Unfortuntately, he also neglected to mention that he already knows that the answer is not nearly so sinister as he is implying. As a shareholder of BMBE I am not happy about this, but I am even less happy that someone has decided to try to derail the business by making a series of disingenuous public posts. If the information in question in fact was untrue, it would be revealed as such in this thread. The allegations you put forth might or might not be true; however, the facts he has demonstrated is indisputable, and whatever his motives are, you cannot deny that there is a discrepancy in all this. You criticize him for spreading accusations solely based on his personal gain. Nevertheless, you have a monetary interest in the continuation of business as usual, and your arguements cannot be described as objective, either. Why should I believe you, with no facts and obviously keeping information hidden, and with economic interest in the business in question, above a quite objective opening post? ___________________ Sortiario Communication Consulting - SCConsult Communication advisory service
Motivated Prophet Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.05.04 22:21:00 - [24] Perhaps a loan defaulted but the collateral value fell during the T2 BPO crash? That's the only legitimate explanation I can imagine at the moment. Regardless of the story behind it, and regardless of who's bringing the charge, any allegation of malfeasance by a public company CEO MUST be answered, if only to say simply, forcefully, "No." Nothing erodes my trust more than silence. MP -- TINY. Stage 2 IPO, because good things come in pairs.
Eefrit Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2007.05.04 22:33:00 - [25] Originally by: Motivated Prophet Perhaps a loan defaulted but the collateral value fell during the T2 BPO crash? That's the only legitimate explanation I can imagine at the moment. I thought about that, but then this was in December and nothing has been reported so far. As far as I understand how BMBE is supposed to handle something like this; the collateral is supposed to be sold off immediately and the profit/loss declared. We are 4 months down the line, but even if this were the case it would still be misreporting to investors. Regards, Eefrit
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.04 22:49:00 - [26] Originally by: Shadarle This makes absolutely no sense. You obviously know an explanation to the question that was raise. You claim it is not sinister. If these are both true then why won't you just tell us the explanation instead of just claiming it's all OK. The more you refuse to give the explanation yourself makes this seem even more suspicious. And it doesn't seem that Eefrit knows the answer... so please, enlighten us all. If I felt it were my place to speak for BMBE I would release the information. Since it is not my place to do so I will act with respect and wait for them to make their own decision. The funny thing about this is that I would suspect someone with even a moderate degree of forum skills could find the (annoying but completely clean) answer to this in past threads. Eefrit does indeed know the answer to the "question" he poses in this thread. He asked and was told the answer when he inquired into buying out BMBE. In any case, it is the stance of the op that offends me and not the truth of the situation at hand. What the op is doing is despicable and it attempts to destroy someone else's reputation by hinting at information he knows to be untrue. The fact that, as a substantial shareholder in BMBE, I am more perturbed by Eefrit's disgusting, disingenuous actions than I am about recieving less than full returns on my investment should tell you everything you need to know about how "sinister" the explanation actually is. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.04 22:54:00 - [27] Edited by: Baun on 04/05/2007 22:51:36 Originally by: Eefrit We are 4 months down the line, but even if this were the case it would still be misreporting to investors. Would you mind telling me where these reporting requirements that are being violated can be found? Its quite sad that you are willing to call someone a thief when at bottom your accusations cannot even be squard with breach of any explicit fiduciary duty. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Eefrit Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2007.05.04 22:59:00 - [28] Originally by: Baun Eefrit does indeed know the answer to the "question" he poses in this thread. He asked and was told the answer when he inquired into buying out BMBE. For the last time Baun, if I aparently know this and it was from a public thread then I don't see why you can't answer the question. Seeing as you "know" I know this, could you please paste some chatlog or other such proof that I know this? * We know you say I know this * I say I can not see it from any post and have not had the question answered from BMBE, so I don't see how I could possibly know this. Please give us the proof you appear to be convinced you have to support anything you have said so far so that we can all learn from you. I know you don't like me so take the oportunity to show me up as a liar and provide some proof. Sincerely, Eefrit
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.04 23:02:00 - [29] Originally by: Eefrit Secondly, how exactly I am supposed to have come by this information if the only person who has it refuses to answer a single question. Interesting. I can think of at least 6 people who have this information. One of them hates Tornsoul and BMBE even more than you do. I find it highly unlikely that even had you not been given the answer to this question directly that you would not know the same things he does. Quote: You can stop saying I know the answer, as we have already seen that. Could you rather tell us all what the answer is and for my sake exactly how it is that I got this answer that I don't believe I have. According to my information you asked a question when inquiring into buying out the BMBE. Regardless of the complete disclosure of why the answer to the question was what it was, that answer neccesarily resolves this entire situation. Either you are lying about asking the question or the person who told me what information was disclosed was lying. I cannot think of a good reason for the person who told me this to have lied (they might as well have said nothing to me) and I can think of every reason for you to claim ignorance. I therefore find it much more likely that you are lying then than that person is lying. Since neither you nor that person is Tornsoul you would do well to cease your attack on him. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.04 23:04:00 - [30] Originally by: Baun According to my information you asked a question when inquiring into buying out the BMBE. Regardless of the complete disclosure of why the answer to the question was what it was, that answer neccesarily resolves this entire situation. Then why won't you post the freaking answer?!!! I'm getting anxious and nervous here --23 Member-- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio!



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