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Clearly War Decs are TOO cheap.

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Ageanal Olerie Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 53	Posted - 2017.04.01 17:41:42 - [1] - Quote When you see a corp or alliance regularly has many dozens of active war decs, including against alliances, then clearly these things are far too inexpensive.
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri New Order Logistics CODE. 733	Posted - 2017.04.01 17:57:29 - [2] - Quote We've beaten that particular horse to dust already, so I'll limit myself to a summary. More expensive wardecs aren't a solution - the fact that certain large alliances are engaged in carpet wardeccing means that they have enough ISK to do it and continue doing so if the price is increased. However, smaller entities interested in the wardeccing business will find themselves at an even greater disadvantage. Agent of the New Order Live by the Code - die by the Code. The Voice of Highsec
grgjegb gergerg School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 13	Posted - 2017.04.01 19:03:31 - [3] - Quote Shameless plug: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=515252 I was trying for a relatively elegant solution, instead of just jacking up expenses.
Sonya Corvinus Grant Village 1075	Posted - 2017.04.01 20:16:58 - [4] - Quote Spend less time in HS, you'll have more fun anyway.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries 278	Posted - 2017.04.01 21:28:42 - [5] - Quote Not seeing the problem here. You can easily avoid the risk of war decs by moving to lowsec or even 0.0.
Kisaria Andria Astral Enterprises 1	Posted - 2017.04.02 02:05:45 - [6] - Quote I agree with the OP that there is a problem but I don't know if raising the price is the answer. I'm not the one to ask. Until a couple of hours ago I didn't know a thing about wardecs and my oldest character was born in 2008. I just got wardecced. I had to look up the rules. I found that I have to wait a week for it to be over. I then did some research into the corp that created the wardec. I found that they wardecced a number of other corps besides mine. And they did that yesterday, and the day before, and the day before that. I'm sure this is old news to all of you but to me this is all new information. I then checked into the corps that got wardecced along with mine. These guys must be on some kind of mailing list. Not only have they been wardecced over and over by the same corp but they have been wardecced over and over by a number of "hi-sec wardeccing corps". These corps appear to get one to two weeks of normal game play a month but still have to pay CCP for the full month. If I was interested in PVP I would join a PVP corp in null-sec. I'm in hi-sec for a reason. My suggestion is two-fold. I think a restriction should be put in place on how often a corp can harass you. Let's say they can mindlessly wardec you once or twice a year. I could live with that. The second part of my suggestion is to vote with your money. I just canceled all five of my subscriptions. I can go play another game where I get to play every day I pay for. CCP doesn't care that I'm not happy about the wardec system. There are a lot of folks that aren't happy about it. My name is on the mailing list now. I have a decision to make, accept EVE for what it is or go play something else.
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3859	Posted - 2017.04.02 02:52:39 - [7] - Quote This isn't the op's first whine. How can wardecs be too cheap when the cost of ignoring them is less than a 10th of the price? Kisaria. This is a pvp game. All areas are pvp areas. True some ppl don't like that but eve is a niche game. If you don't like pvp that much then playing another game is actually your best option. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries 278	Posted - 2017.04.02 02:54:42 - [8] - Quote Kisaria wrote: If I was interested in PVP I would join a PVP corp in null-sec. I'm in hi-sec for a reason. Sounds like you don't understand how EVE works. There is no part of EVE, highsec included, that is a no-PvP zone. The only way to avoid PvP is to never undock (or interact with other players on the market, etc). Quote: I just canceled all five of my subscriptions. Good. You don't belong in EVE because you're too weak to survive here. Please be sure to contract me all of your stuff on your way out the door, so you won't be tempted to return.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 20895	Posted - 2017.04.02 03:29:01 - [9] - Quote shut up Murderers of Negotiable Motivations Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18800	Posted - 2017.04.02 04:10:44 - [10] - Quote If you want to fix blanket wardecs then you have to give back the ability to make targeted wars. The fix is simple, when you run a locator agent if the target is offline it simply says "the target has gone to ground".
Kenrailae The Scope Gallente Federation 763	Posted - 2017.04.02 04:18:31 - [11] - Quote baltec1 wrote: If you want to fix blanket wardecs then you have to give back the ability to make targeted wars. The fix is simple, when you run a locator agent if the target is offline it simply says "the target has gone to ground". This has literally 0 effect on the act of war deccing someone. It's just a 'make it easier for me leet PVP in high sec' card. And the lols we get from the 'leet PVP' high sec war deccers is never NOT funny. What you mean to say by targeted wars is purposeful war deccing again.... which whether people wanna like it or not, has everything to do with the balance between things/reasons to shoot people that can't just be done with a few catalysts. Good game though. The Law is a point of View The NPE IS a big deal
Bjorn Tyrson EVE University Ivy League 453	Posted - 2017.04.02 05:34:03 - [12] - Quote Kisaria wrote: I agree with the OP that there is a problem but I don't know if raising the price is the answer. I'm not the one to ask. Until a couple of hours ago I didn't know a thing about wardecs and my oldest character was born in 2008. I just got wardecced. I had to look up the rules. I found that I have to wait a week for it to be over. I then did some research into the corp that created the wardec. I found that they wardecced a number of other corps besides mine. And they did that yesterday, and the day before, and the day before that. I'm sure this is old news to all of you but to me this is all new information. I then checked into the corps that got wardecced along with mine. These guys must be on some kind of mailing list. Not only have they been wardecced over and over by the same corp but they have been wardecced over and over by a number of "hi-sec wardeccing corps". These corps appear to get one to two weeks of normal game play a month but still have to pay CCP for the full month. If I was interested in PVP I would join a PVP corp in null-sec. I'm in hi-sec for a reason. My suggestion is two-fold. I think a restriction should be put in place on how often a corp can harass you. Let's say they can mindlessly wardec you once or twice a year. I could live with that. The second part of my suggestion is to vote with your money. I just canceled all five of my subscriptions. I can go play another game where I get to play every day I pay for. CCP doesn't care that I'm not happy about the wardec system. There are a lot of folks that aren't happy about it. My name is on the mailing list now. I have a decision to make, accept EVE for what it is or go play something else. Absolutely nothing is stopping you from playing. Wardec or not. In the past 6 months I've spent in the uni, I think we have been at peace for Maybe 2 weeks total. I would LOVE 2 weeks per month wardec free. And guess what, the uni still runs, people still undock, in fact it has very little impact on our day to day activities because in general we fly safe (and those who don't get caught. And generally learn quick) But if you have already cancelled your subs. Since your stuff is spoken for. Can I have your SP? I'll even cover the cost of the extractors.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 47378	Posted - 2017.04.02 05:35:01 - [13] - Quote Maybe owning a Corp is too cheap. If Corps cost a lot more, then perhaps people would only invest in them when they really need too and there'd be more interest in defending a war, which would then require fewer wars to achieve the content levels that wardeccers look for.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries 279	Posted - 2017.04.02 07:55:29 - [14] - Quote Kenrailae wrote: baltec1 wrote: If you want to fix blanket wardecs then you have to give back the ability to make targeted wars. The fix is simple, when you run a locator agent if the target is offline it simply says "the target has gone to ground". This has literally 0 effect on the act of war deccing someone. It's just a 'make it easier for me leet PVP in high sec' card. No, it has a huge effect on war decs because the reason people put out mass war decs is the difficulty in finding a target. The locator agent system is awkward, there's no way to tell if your targets are even online at all, so the obvious answer is to war dec half of EVE so that sheer numbers allow you to find a target. Having locator agents tell you that your target is offline would make it significantly easier to home in on the active targets and reduce the need for tons of active wars.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries 279	Posted - 2017.04.02 07:59:08 - [15] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Maybe owning a Corp is too cheap. If Corps cost a lot more, then perhaps people would only invest in them when they really need too and there'd be more interest in defending a war, which would then require fewer wars to achieve the content levels that wardeccers look for. This is true, but it's an awkward problem to fix. Making corps expensive to start would remove the problem of disbanding a corp and immediately re-forming it under a new name to dodge the war dec, since the cost of abandoning your corp would be greater than the cost of any losses you might suffer in the war. But it also creates a huge barrier to entry for newer players, and forces them to either stay in NPC corps (bad) or surrender their ability to build their own cool thing in the sandbox by joining existing corps (also bad). The proposal gives more power to those who already have it, at the expense of everyone else.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 20897	Posted - 2017.04.02 09:37:27 - [16] - Quote Kenrailae wrote: baltec1 wrote: If you want to fix blanket wardecs then you have to give back the ability to make targeted wars. The fix is simple, when you run a locator agent if the target is offline it simply says "the target has gone to ground". This has literally 0 effect on the act of war deccing someone. It's just a 'make it easier for me leet PVP in high sec' card. Funny because That was literally the only change to the relevant mechanics in the last couple of years and it saw an immediate, dramatic and sustained increase in the amount of wars declared by the larger Mercs, the smaller ones either folding or being absorbed much across the board. War spamming hub humping degenerative fecking messers became the modus operandi, rather than something the rest of us would point and laugh at. it doesn't necessarily have to be an online/offline thing, Filterable map stats on a per alliance/corp level, delayed heat maps ,or some way of cutting out the noise of empire is necessary. Murderers of Negotiable Motivations Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
Sitting Bull Lakota SBL Co 281	Posted - 2017.04.02 10:01:01 - [17] - Quote Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri wrote: We've beaten that particular horse to dust already, so I'll limit myself to a summary. More expensive wardecs aren't a solution - the fact that certain large alliances are engaged in carpet wardeccing means that they have enough ISK to do it and continue doing so if the price is increased. However, smaller entities interested in the wardeccing business will find themselves at an even greater disadvantage. Which means the smaller entities will join up with the big alliances, swelling their numbers and wallets. This in turn leads to higher demand for wartargets. Which of course means more wardecs. That is the progression that lead to where we are now. You want to stop wardec alliances? Make war cheap.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 28092	Posted - 2017.04.02 10:25:29 - [18] - Quote We could always go back to the old wardec prices @2M a pop. That would encourage smaller entities to start individual and meaningful wars, rather than banding together in a few corps and wardeccing every thing in sight in the hope of getting something to shoot at. In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded. New Player FAQ Feyd's Survival Pack
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 20898	Posted - 2017.04.02 10:59:28 - [19] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: We could always go back to the old wardec prices @2M a pop. That may encourage smaller entities to start individual and meaningful wars again, rather than banding together in a few corps and wardeccing every thing in sight in the hope of getting something to shoot at. Still have the Intell issue, without sorting that you just make hub humping cheeper. Murderers of Negotiable Motivations Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 3926	Posted - 2017.04.02 12:56:17 - [20] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: We could always go back to the old wardec prices @2M a pop. That may encourage smaller entities to start individual and meaningful wars again, rather than banding together in a few corps and wardeccing every thing in sight in the hope of getting something to shoot at. Except the banding together was already happening anyway over time even before the wardec prices got changed. What should happen is wardec costs should be based on the attackers size, not the defenders. This creates a push & pull pressure where for costs you want to be tiny, but for the ability to put a decent force on the field you want to be larger Then to create more meaningful wardecs, remove 90% of high security stations (at least as player dockable locations even if they still exist for NPC mining & other fleet spawn points), asset safety now makes this possible since things could be set up to be recoverable through that system. And you then have only a few stations per constellation, making citadels as corp focuses far more relevant, and making it easier to push someone out of a system or constellation. Which means area control becomes a reason for war even in high sec.
Kenrailae The Scope Gallente Federation 763	Posted - 2017.04.02 13:15:55 - [21] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Kenrailae wrote: baltec1 wrote: If you want to fix blanket wardecs then you have to give back the ability to make targeted wars. The fix is simple, when you run a locator agent if the target is offline it simply says "the target has gone to ground". This has literally 0 effect on the act of war deccing someone. It's just a 'make it easier for me leet PVP in high sec' card. Funny because That was literally the only change to the relevant mechanics in the last couple of years and it saw an immediate, dramatic and sustained increase in the amount of wars declared by the larger Mercs, the smaller ones either folding or being absorbed almost across the board. War spamming hub humping degenerative fecking messers became the modus operandi, rather than something the rest of us would point and laugh at. it doesn't necessarily have to be an online/offline thing, Filterable map stats on a per alliance/corp level, delayed heat maps ,or some way of cutting out the noise of empire is necessary. Lol. Keep re-writing that history however you see fit. War decs were already screwed WELL before the watch list got changed. The blanket war deccing in hubs had been around for far longer than your watchlist being changed to a mutual friends list. We all know you're one of those 'give me an easy way to generate dank killmails' lot :) The Law is a point of View The NPE IS a big deal
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18804	Posted - 2017.04.02 13:26:02 - [22] - Quote Kenrailae wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Kenrailae wrote: baltec1 wrote: If you want to fix blanket wardecs then you have to give back the ability to make targeted wars. The fix is simple, when you run a locator agent if the target is offline it simply says "the target has gone to ground". This has literally 0 effect on the act of war deccing someone. It's just a 'make it easier for me leet PVP in high sec' card. Funny because That was literally the only change to the relevant mechanics in the last couple of years and it saw an immediate, dramatic and sustained increase in the amount of wars declared by the larger Mercs, the smaller ones either folding or being absorbed almost across the board. War spamming hub humping degenerative fecking messers became the modus operandi, rather than something the rest of us would point and laugh at. it doesn't necessarily have to be an online/offline thing, Filterable map stats on a per alliance/corp level, delayed heat maps ,or some way of cutting out the noise of empire is necessary. Lol. Keep re-writing that history however you see fit. War decs were already screwed WELL before the watch list got changed. The blanket war deccing in hubs had been around for far longer than your watchlist being changed to a mutual friends list. We all know you're one of those 'give me an easy way to generate dank killmails' lot :) The watch list changes forced everyone to mass wardec, it made what you hate worse.
Kenrailae The Scope Gallente Federation 763	Posted - 2017.04.02 13:28:06 - [23] - Quote so you're saying it just exaggerated a pre-existing problem, that it's not the ACTUAL problem???? -.- Ty for finally admitting it. The Law is a point of View The NPE IS a big deal
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 28092	Posted - 2017.04.02 15:09:36 - [24] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: We could always go back to the old wardec prices @2M a pop. That may encourage smaller entities to start individual and meaningful wars again, rather than banding together in a few corps and wardeccing every thing in sight in the hope of getting something to shoot at. Still have the Intell issue, without sorting that you just make hub humping cheeper. True enough, mass wardeccing is a symptom, it's not the disease. In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded. New Player FAQ Feyd's Survival Pack
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 20903	Posted - 2017.04.02 15:19:08 - [25] - Quote Kenrailae wrote: so you're saying it just exaggerated a pre-existing problem, that it's not the ACTUAL problem???? -.- Ty for finally admitting it. It's only been a problem since the alternative was gutted. We've seen more bemoaning in the last year than the previous 3 on this topic. Murderers of Negotiable Motivations Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
Kenrailae The Scope Gallente Federation 763	Posted - 2017.04.02 15:38:55 - [26] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Kenrailae wrote: so you're saying it just exaggerated a pre-existing problem, that it's not the ACTUAL problem???? -.- Ty for finally admitting it. It's only been a problem since the alternative was gutted. We've seen more bemoaning in the last year than the previous 3 on this topic. Lemme get out my tiny violin for ya. Watch lists were removed for good reasons. They're not coming back, nor are they going to be worked around by having locators tell you exactly what a watch list told you before, when it was decided they gave too much information and needed to be removed. So rather than keep complaining about an exaggeration... why don't you put your effort into addressing the problem.... which is again that war decs now serve little to no measurable purpose in the game other than structure bashing, because everything they set out to do can be done with a few catalysts or talos. Even IF locators did, that still would not solve the core problem, would just mean you knew which of your blanket war dec targets was online when you ran the locator. Don't misunderstand, I will be one of the loudest voices telling CCP where exactly to shove their idea should ANYONE at CCP ever get the opinion that ganking should be removed. But it takes a pretty deluded individual to say that their is a good and healthy balance between War decs, Ganking, and the nebulous theme of Concord/security in HS at the moment. You may as well just remove war decs. Also PS... Just because your game play got stepped on doesn't mean it was a bad change for the game. Reference Jump fatigue/reduced jump ranges. The Law is a point of View The NPE IS a big deal
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 20904	Posted - 2017.04.02 16:41:50 - [27] - Quote Op is moaning about war spamming, which has become problematic in the last year. Yes it was around beforehand but it's only been problematic since some clever clogs forced an issue. Without an alternative we're only going to compound the issue. Quote: But it takes a pretty deluded individual to say that their is a good and healthy balance between War decs, Ganking, and the nebulous theme of Concord/security in HS at the moment So don't, I didn't. Edit: also ganking is irrelevant as far as this discussion is concerned. Murderers of Negotiable Motivations Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
Atomeon The Scope Gallente Federation 80	Posted - 2017.04.02 20:46:44 - [28] - Quote Since the wardeccing has no draw back for the Wardeccing Corp lets add one. When wardeccing a corp, the corp has the ability to bribe the faction police to hunt down the wardecers, so everyone is be hunting and be hunted. As for the cost to bribe should be same as the wardec itself, since if you want to expanded to whole Highsec you need to bride the 4 faction police.
Sonya Corvinus Grant Village 1076	Posted - 2017.04.02 20:59:37 - [29] - Quote Atomeon wrote: Since the wardeccing has no draw back for the Wardeccing Corp lets add one. When wardeccing a corp, the corp has the ability to bribe the faction police to hunt down the wardecers, so everyone is be hunting and be hunted. As for the cost to bribe should be same as the wardec itself, since if you want to expanded to whole Highsec you need to bride the 4 faction police. Pay another player corp to attack the guys who are attacking you?
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3860	Posted - 2017.04.02 21:04:16 - [30] - Quote Atomeon wrote: Since the wardeccing has no draw back for the Wardeccing Corp lets add one. . That's your job. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries 283	Posted - 2017.04.02 23:28:00 - [31] - Quote Atomeon wrote: When wardeccing a corp, the corp has the ability to bribe the faction police to hunt down the wardecers, so everyone is be hunting and be hunted. Everyone is already hunting and being hunted. It's not a problem with the game mechanics when incompetent players decide to hide in station at all times instead of saying "ooh, free war dec, let's go gank these guys", and we do not need a solution where these players are coddled by having NPC bodyguards.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 47381	Posted - 2017.04.03 07:17:49 - [32] - Quote Atomeon wrote: Since the wardeccing has no draw back for the Wardeccing Corp lets add one. When wardeccing a corp, the corp has the ability to bribe the faction police to hunt down the wardecers, so everyone is be hunting and be hunted. As for the cost to bribe should be same as the wardec itself, since if you want to expanded to whole Highsec you need to bride the 4 faction police. The cost is already a drawback, given how easy it is to dodge a war all together, but if you want them to be hunted, go hunt them yourself, or pay another player group to go do it.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 3285	Posted - 2017.04.03 14:05:43 - [33] - Quote Ageanal Olerie wrote: When you see a corp or alliance regularly has many dozens of active war decs, including against alliances, then clearly these things are far too inexpensive. That is just a symptom of previous changes to war decs and the base design. War decs an open ended feature and both side hate the other one for using the open ended part of it.
Kenrailae The Scope Gallente Federation 764	Posted - 2017.04.03 15:09:45 - [34] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Op is moaning about war spamming, which has become problematic in the last year. Yes it was around beforehand but it's only been problematic since some clever clogs forced an issue. Without an alternative we're only going to compound the issue. Quote: But it takes a pretty deluded individual to say that their is a good and healthy balance between War decs, Ganking, and the nebulous theme of Concord/security in HS at the moment So don't, I didn't. Edit: also ganking is irrelevant as far as this discussion is concerned. And yet you just did. Huh. Guess that speaks volumes to your credibility then. The Law is a point of View The NPE IS a big deal
Roamer Jakuard Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2017.04.03 16:25:33 - [35] - Quote Personally, I don't care about Wardecs since I only belong to an NPC corp. But I will say this. When I was totally new, I briefly joined a corp. But the same day I joined, the corp was wardeced, and I was advised to leave to save from being needlessly attacted. All I was taught was that in hisec, 'joining a player corp'='bad'. This is largely why I have never joined a corp since. I fully approve of ganking in hisec (risk is good, it's had the pulse racing at times as a potential and justifiable target). But wardecs, all they do is stop me from participating more with others. Even if I move my home base out of hisec, I would still be reluctant to join any player corp (officially), since I wouldn't want to drop corp every time I go to hisec for any length of time. Wardecs don't affect me, but other than for POS bashing, I personally don't consider them of value to helping participation in the game. I would like to see a system for mercs, where the validity of information (rumours) for tracking is proportional to the notoriety of the target (a watch list was too good from my understanding). But that belongs in its own topic.
Piugattuk Lima beans Corp 578	Posted - 2017.04.03 16:30:15 - [36] - Quote Maybe the cost of wardeccs should be a plex, this way the cost of war deccing is the cost of a plex what ever the price may be, burn up some of the plex out there.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries 285	Posted - 2017.04.03 16:35:06 - [37] - Quote Roamer Jakuard wrote: When I was totally new, I briefly joined a corp. But the same day I joined, the corp was wardeced, and I was advised to leave to save from being needlessly attacted. All I was taught was that in hisec, 'joining a player corp'='bad'. This is not a problem with the mechanics. It's a problem with the corp you joined being incompetent morons who would rather give up at the first sign of adversity than fight back and win. It's bad that new players are taught "adversity = scary = quit", but there isn't anything CCP can do about this when it's their fellow players doing the teaching. Quote: I would still be reluctant to join any player corp (officially), since I wouldn't want to drop corp every time I go to hisec for any length of time. Why would you have to drop corp every time you go to highsec? Are you that bad at the game?
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 28101	Posted - 2017.04.03 17:04:53 - [38] - Quote Kisaria wrote: I agree with the OP that there is a problem... Indeed there is, but it's not what you think. The problem is people that don't use the existing mechanics to mitigate the damage a wardec do. In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded. New Player FAQ Feyd's Survival Pack
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3862	Posted - 2017.04.03 19:40:03 - [39] - Quote Roamer Jakuard wrote: Wardecs don't affect me, but other than for POS bashing, I personally don't consider them of value to helping participation in the game.. Players getting into pvp is what keeps people playing. Noobs used wardecs to first try out pvp in a relatively small and familiar environment. They cut their teeth in hunting and pvp skills against other high sec corps. Wardecs were nerfed in 2012 to be more costly and overly biased to the defender (no more small scale-noob wardecs), the game started tanking barely a year after. Go figure. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 20941	Posted - 2017.04.03 21:57:36 - [40] - Quote Kenrailae wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Op is moaning about war spamming, which has become problematic in the last year. Yes it was around beforehand but it's only been problematic since some clever clogs forced an issue. Without an alternative we're only going to compound the issue. Quote: But it takes a pretty deluded individual to say that their is a good and healthy balance between War decs, Ganking, and the nebulous theme of Concord/security in HS at the moment So don't, I didn't. Edit: also ganking is irrelevant as far as this discussion is concerned. And yet you just did. Huh. Guess that speaks volumes to your credibility then. Quote me Murderers of Negotiable Motivations Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
Kenrailae The Scope Gallente Federation 764	Posted - 2017.04.04 02:07:33 - [41] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Quote: Edit: also ganking is irrelevant as far as this discussion is concerned. Quote me Like that? That spot right there where you suggested you could talk about meaningful and functional war decs and how much they should cost without also discussing how Concord/War decs/Ganking are balanced but ignore the mechanics/effects of ganking in the equation of that balance? Almost as if you wanted to suggest discussing color theory and the meaning of orange, but purposefully ignore the meanings of yellow, which is one of the 2 primary colors that make it up, because you think turning orange a bit more blue solves the problem you have with orange? The Law is a point of View The NPE IS a big deal
Shae Tadaruwa science and trade institute Caldari State 1624	Posted - 2017.04.04 07:33:19 - [42] - Quote Kenrailae wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Quote: Edit: also ganking is irrelevant as far as this discussion is concerned. Quote me Like that? That spot right there where you suggested you could talk about meaningful and functional war decs and how much they should cost without also discussing how Concord/War decs/Ganking are balanced but ignore the mechanics/effects of ganking in the equation of that balance? Almost as if you wanted to suggest discussing color theory and the meaning of orange, but purposefully ignore the meanings of yellow, which is one of the 2 primary colors that make it up, because you think turning orange a bit more blue solves the problem you have with orange? Where did he say any of that? Also, it's very easy to tell when someone has no real argument. They go looking for analogies of stupid out of game things, because they can't provide a relevant EVE related argument. Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 20949	Posted - 2017.04.04 14:07:26 - [43] - Quote Yeah I'm not going to bother with this discussion if you're going to attack strawmen, And I know that gets bandied about a lot here but it's exactly whats happening here. I'm out o7 Murderers of Negotiable Motivations Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
GoodGreyer Ayderan University of Caille Gallente Federation 27	Posted - 2017.04.06 04:54:38 - [44] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Maybe owning a Corp is too cheap. If Corps cost a lot more, then perhaps people would only invest in them when they really need too and there'd be more interest in defending a war, which would then require fewer wars to achieve the content levels that wardeccers look for. Corps aren't too cheap. Besides it's imperative to get players into player corps as soon as possible. It makes a world of difference to be in a player corp (and alliance) in Eve. Frankly I would funnel all new players into Eve Uni (strongly encourage them to join). They helped me out tremendously when first getting in to this game, for the 3rd try, and it completely changed my outlook on the game to be in a large well organized corporation that not only educated you (with classes and practical experience), but helped out in a myriad ways. As for making War Decs (and owning a corp) more expensive, that's easy. Allow the defending corporation to counter bribe CONCORD. This can then start a bidding war between the corp which initiated the War Dec and the defending corp. Many corps are simply industrial corps and their PvP is generating ISK. Let them fight back with it if they so choose. If the defender wins the bidding war, the War Dec doesn't begin. In any case both sides lose their ISK. This adds some additional risk to the War Dec'ing corp since they may not know if the defending corp is going to counter bribe CONCORD, and then they are out their ISK without getting the fight they wanted. This is also an ISK sink, and could be a bigger ISK sink than a standard War Dec, since my corp has been under many where we've not suffered a single loss, however we would counter-bribe often just for the piece of mind (and enjoyment) of being able to run around high-sec without worrying about WTs. Yes a rich corp could try to bankrupt defending corporation, however the defenders are never obligated to counter bribe. And a well financed corp, like E-Uni (who don[t' even tax members but get donations from alumni) would be able to allow their members / students a reprieve from the endless war decs they are under (simply for being big with a lot of targets, and the juiciest of targets for griefers... the noobs).
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3864	Posted - 2017.04.06 12:31:25 - [45] - Quote Preventing a dec by spending isk isn't a good mechanic. For one it means older richer players can dec who they want and are un-deccable themselves. Its a horrible idea. Second, is that a version of that bad idea already exists today. You can stop any dec by starting a new corp for just a few mil AND the wardeccers don't get their isk back. Is it fun? Is it interesting for the game? No. Corps are definitely too cheap. They are being started by inexperienced players who are then leading other inexperienced players to failure. Corps being more expensive does not stop older more experienced players from starting corps (i.e. your eve universities). It actually means new players looking for a corp do not have to look as hard to find a group that actually give a damn. Do this alongside social corps that are undeccable and can be started for free and you have a freaking npe that is sociable AND players can choose their level of engagement. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 1212	Posted - 2017.04.06 14:34:07 - [46] - Quote baltec1 wrote: If you want to fix blanket wardecs then you have to give back the ability to make targeted wars. The fix is simple, when you run a locator agent if the target is offline it simply says "the target has gone to ground". The watch list after the change has nothing to do with targeted war decs, you can still target a single corp and you can still go out and search EvE to find the members of that corp and you still have all the same tools you always had to help find them. The ONLY thing that the watch list change did was eliminate your "easy button" access to the online status of a character and for many reasons CCP decided that was to much easy info for you to have so stop using that as an excuse for your hub humping ways. As it may relate to the mass war dec situation the watch list change has increased that to some small degree, but the mass war dec theory has been a thing in this game for many years because the vast majority of the war dec players do not want an actual war, they want quick and easy kills. Even if CCP did bring back the watch list it would have zero affect on the mass war dec situation. Scipio Artelius wrote: Maybe owning a Corp is too cheap. If Corps cost a lot more, then perhaps people would only invest in them when they really need too and there'd be more interest in defending a war, which would then require fewer wars to achieve the content levels that wardeccers look for. Making corps cost more is one of those proverbial double edged swords. If they cost more to form and maintain even more people will simply never leave the NPC corp they start in, is that really what you want? Increasing costs to file a war dec is not the answer, likewise increasing the costs associated with a player corp is not an answer either. Sitting Bull Lakota wrote: That is the progression that lead to where we are now. You want to stop wardec alliances? Make war cheap. While I agree with you that CCP has the cost of war decs and more importantly how those costs are calculated all screwed up the simple reality is that war decs were well into the mass dec scenario before CCP changed the cost structure. To be honest this whole idea of blaming the mass war dec thing on the cost changes is simply a smoke and mirrors parlor trick to try and hide the real reasons. Daichi Yamato wrote: That's your job. Apologies for snipping this I am at the quote limit please refer to Daichi's post above for context on this one. Yet another of the oft told fairy tales of EvE. When you as a corp full of industrial players face at least 5 or more experienced PvP players for every member of your corp you un-dock as a defender just how do you inflict any damage on the attackers? No hiring mercs to do it for you is not always an option because ISK and the ridiculous fees mercs often charge. When your attackers dock up and log off every time you un-dock in combat capable ships again I ask how do you inflict any damage to your attackers? As defenders what can we do to "force" the war to end? The answer is nothing. Daichi Yamato wrote: Players getting into pvp is what keeps people playing. Noobs used wardecs to first try out pvp in a relatively small and familiar environment. They cut their teeth in hunting and pvp skills against other high sec corps. You are on a roll with the EvE fairy tales today aren't you. CCP has NEVER stated that PvP is what keeps people in this game, in fact CCP has clearly stated that social interactions with other players is the key factor to keeping players in the game long term. Yet you and many others have taken that statement and warped it into this fairy tale about PvP is what keeps players in the game.
MyZhar Ministry of War Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2017.04.06 14:38:51 - [47] - Quote The costs to start a war are indeed to cheap. - Start a new character - Buy a skillbook & train it to L1 500.000 isk / Trainable for AlphaGÇÖs - Start your own corp1.500.000 isk - Start a / multiple wars2.500.000 isk / per war Total:4.500.000 If needed biomass the character and start over. I would like to see the introduction of 2 wardec skillbooks. In order to make wardeccing alpha / alts a thing of the past. By adding extra cost en lowering effectiveness. Skill to wardec a corp- 10.000.000 isk / Trainable for OmegaGÇÖs L1 = 1 active war L2 = 2 active wars L3 = 4 active wars L4 = 8 active wars L5 = 16 active wars Skill to lower wardec cost- 10.000.000 isk / Trainable For OmegaGÇÖs L1 = -5% warcost L2 = -10% warcost L3 = -20% warcost L4 = -40% warcost L5 = -80% warcost With the use of these 2 skillbooks only well trained pilots can effectivly start wars.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 47393	Posted - 2017.04.06 15:28:31 - [48] - Quote MyZhar wrote: The costs to start a war are indeed to cheap. - Start a new character - Buy a skillbook & train it to L1 500.000 isk / Trainable for AlphaGÇÖs - Start your own corp1.500.000 isk - Start a / multiple wars2.500.000 isk / per war Total:4.500.000. In what universe are Wardecs 2.5 million ISK?
MyZhar Ministry of War Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2017.04.06 15:31:54 - [49] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: In what universe are Wardecs 2.5 million ISK? No idea, had to think of something as a example, You think I would understand the real wardec cost calculations :)
GoodGreyer Ayderan University of Caille Gallente Federation 27	Posted - 2017.04.06 19:05:56 - [50] - Quote Here's another option instead of the defending corp counter-bribing CONCORD to prevent a war-dec. Since CCP is presumably working on a much more advanced AI for NPCs, allow the defending corp to purchase NPC defenders who will show up (like CONCORD) whenever a member of the corp is attacked by a War Deccer. I'm sure they could work out the details of how this could work to make it reasonable and flexible depending on the situation. First order of business for your defenders, begin repping you. Your attacker isn't going to take you out without focusing on your defenders first. Do War Deccers want a fight (LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL) or do they want to grief other players? Sorry, couldn't contain that. I think the "war deccers" know the answer to that. After all they know where to find fair fights in this game, but War Decs are PvP for those who royally suck at PvP. For those who DO actually want a fight, a dangerous tough challenging fight, that still gives them an opportunity to blow up another player's ship, then allow the defenders to buy a fighting chance (rather than having to turn to expensive, unreliable and sometimes scamming player defenders).
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries 295	Posted - 2017.04.06 20:43:56 - [51] - Quote GoodGreyer Ayderan wrote: Since CCP is presumably working on a much more advanced AI for NPCs, allow the defending corp to purchase NPC defenders who will show up (like CONCORD) whenever a member of the corp is attacked by a War Deccer. **** NO. EVE is a PvP game. If you want allies to help you win PvP fights then find some other players to fight with you. At no point should you ever be able to use NPCs to replace those player interactions.
GoodGreyer Ayderan University of Caille Gallente Federation 27	Posted - 2017.04.06 22:44:22 - [52] - Quote Merin Ryskin wrote: GoodGreyer Ayderan wrote: Since CCP is presumably working on a much more advanced AI for NPCs, allow the defending corp to purchase NPC defenders who will show up (like CONCORD) whenever a member of the corp is attacked by a War Deccer. **** NO. EVE is a PvP game. If you want allies to help you win PvP fights then find some other players to fight with you. At no point should you ever be able to use NPCs to replace those player interactions. Actually Eve is both. Of course you've already seen my opinion of those "PvPers" who think War Deccing typically non PvPers is respectable, honorable, or anywhere near good PvP. I'm curious what the loss to kill ratio is of those who War Dec Hi-Sec corps. I'm guessing 1 loss to every 100 kills or worse. What's wrong with a little more challenge to even those odds?
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3864	Posted - 2017.04.06 22:45:00 - [53] - Quote Donna it's still the players job. Even if outnumbered a million to one, the attackers have put the effort and time into making it that way. It's the players job to protect themselves and make the wardeccers work for their content. Goodgreyer, theres no way in hell you are getting pets. This is, again, just a way for rich players to be invincible. If you want help, reach out to players for it. Thats the whole bloody point of the game. Make friends, be sociable. This is not the game to play in your own little bubble. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
GoodGreyer Ayderan University of Caille Gallente Federation 27	Posted - 2017.04.06 22:56:02 - [54] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: theres no way in hell you are getting pets. I can only imagine how many things you've said that about regarding Eve over the years.
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3864	Posted - 2017.04.06 22:58:03 - [55] - Quote Hundreds, and so far near always correct. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries 295	Posted - 2017.04.07 04:35:39 - [56] - Quote GoodGreyer Ayderan wrote: Of course you've already seen my opinion of those "PvPers" who think War Deccing typically non PvPers is respectable, honorable, or anywhere near good PvP. Who cares about "respectable" or "honorable"? This is EVE, none of those things are relevant here. Quote: I'm curious what the loss to kill ratio is of those who War Dec Hi-Sec corps. I'm guessing 1 loss to every 100 kills or worse. What's wrong with a little more challenge to even those odds? The fact that the change is being provided by NPCs, instead of player interactions. If you want them to have more than 1 loss per 100 kills then do a better job of fighting back, hire players to protect you, etc.
MyZhar Ministry of War Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2017.04.07 07:21:53 - [57] - Quote Note: The price to start a war with a small corp is 50.000.000 isk ( 50 mill )
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 1215	Posted - 2017.04.07 14:02:42 - [58] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: Donna it's still the players job. Even if outnumbered a million to one, the attackers have put the effort and time into making it that way. It's the players job to protect themselves and make the wardeccers work for their content.. Fell out of my chair I was laughing so hard when I read this one. Pointing your mouse at a corp clicking a button and selecting to file a dec does not constitute "effort", and based on the evidence as witnessed by the sheer volume of war decs filed every week that is all the "effort" that the vast majority of the war dec players expend. I have no doubt there are those in the war dec community that do expend considerable effort to look into a corp, look into the characters in that corp etc before deciding to file a war dec but they are extremely rare these days. Your comment illustrates that you have missed the point, or perhaps that I have failed to make it properly. There is only one way to protect yourself from a war dec and that is to never leave the NPC corp structure and to me that is counter to the whole make friends and do stuff aspect that is what EvE is supposed to be about. Setting that aside many, no that is not true "most" defenders have very virtually no options. Even if you are inclined to fight and re-ship to do exactly that the attackers show their true nature by turning carebear and hiding in the sewers of EvE the moment the odds are against them. To make it even worse for the defenders and contrary to popular opinion from the war dec crowd even if you force them to hide in the sewers you still have not "won" the war, because the moment you re-ship to return to what you want to do the attackers crawl back out of those sewers. In the end ALL of the options and ALL of the control during a war dec are squarely in the hands of the attackers, as a defender your only options are to do those things the war dec crowd hates. You can stay in an NPC to avoid them completely as many players do, you can simply not log in for a week or more, or you can play on a alt character and none of these are really all that good for the players or the game. To me war decs need to be about structures in space, no not the usual capture the flag style we see in posts around here lately(although even those would be better than what we have now), I mean any structure of any kind. No structures in space immune to war decs, structures in space you damned well better be ready, willing and able to defend them and yourself. Yes if htis happened we would need to discuss the negatives player corps would face for that invulnerability to wars and I am open to that discussion. Well I am not open to an NPC tax, that is a no go unless it is applied to all player corps in all NPC controlled areas of space high, low and nul.
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3864	Posted - 2017.04.07 15:09:25 - [59] - Quote No i think you've missed the point. Managing a corp and providing content for them is effort. There's a reason they say a ceo is the servant of the corp not the master. And the bigger the corp the harder it is to herd those cats and keep them content. That's why it doesn't matter to me how much a defender is outnumbered. The attacker is putting in due effort to simply maintain a larger corp. Are you forgetting that I'm a supporter for structure based decs? I dislike the way attackers run and hide too. My idea even makes mercs stick to their agreement or they don't get paid. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Alderson Point Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 44	Posted - 2017.04.08 11:39:16 - [60] - Quote Kisaria wrote: I agree with the OP that there is a problem but I don't know if raising the price is the answer. I'm not the one to ask. Until a couple of hours ago I didn't know a thing about wardecs and my oldest character was born in 2008. I just got wardecced. I had to look up the rules. I found that I have to wait a week for it to be over. I then did some research into the corp that created the wardec. I found that they wardecced a number of other corps besides mine. And they did that yesterday, and the day before, and the day before that. I'm sure this is old news to all of you but to me this is all new information. I then checked into the corps that got wardecced along with mine. These guys must be on some kind of mailing list. Not only have they been wardecced over and over by the same corp but they have been wardecced over and over by a number of "hi-sec wardeccing corps". These corps appear to get one to two weeks of normal game play a month but still have to pay CCP for the full month. If I was interested in PVP I would join a PVP corp in null-sec. I'm in hi-sec for a reason. My suggestion is two-fold. I think a restriction should be put in place on how often a corp can harass you. Let's say they can mindlessly wardec you once or twice a year. I could live with that. The second part of my suggestion is to vote with your money. I just canceled all five of my subscriptions. I can go play another game where I get to play every day I pay for. CCP doesn't care that I'm not happy about the wardec system. There are a lot of folks that aren't happy about it. My name is on the mailing list now. I have a decision to make, accept EVE for what it is or go play something else. Yup, the wardec system is irredeemably broken. However simply create 5 or more corps and shuffle your players between them, the wardeccers soon get fed up, your corp managers should be doing this, If not your corp needs to shape up.
GoodGreyer Ayderan University of Caille Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2017.04.09 05:29:25 - [61] - Quote LOL. Yes War Decs are broken in all the ways you say, but perhaps not irredeemably so. Certainly the biggest problem is that it basically relegates joining a corp (the single most important factor toward retention in a game as complex and convoluted as Eve) to basically consenting to being griefed, to forcible activity against your will (there's another word for that actually). I've heard a variety of promising solutions over the ages. Any of them could conceivably work to improving on the system. Some solutions are hard to predict the outcome until they're tried. Perhaps ultimately though, in the end, the quickest and easiest solution is to simply require all Hi-Sec wars to be mutual. CCP could code that in a week if they wanted to. Then those who really want a good fight (a risk and challenge - as opposed to relatively risk free assaulting other playeres) in Hi-Sec can cajole those who also would like to fight one another in hi-sec to engage in a mutual war dec.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries 302	Posted - 2017.04.09 06:05:36 - [62] - Quote GoodGreyer Ayderan wrote: Certainly the biggest problem is that it basically relegates joining a corp (the single most important factor toward retention in a game as complex and convoluted as Eve) to basically consenting to being griefed, to forcible activity against your will (there's another word for that actually). Wars are not griefing. EVE is a PvP game whether you like it or not, and being engaged in PvP is just part of the game. Nor is this experience inherent to being in a player corp. Well-organized corps with smart leadership have little to fear from a war dec. The primary victims of war decs are the incompetent players that don't deserve to run a corp, the people that throw together a corp just for the sake of getting to be CEO, provide no leadership or training, and watch as their members mindlessly autopilot through Jita in the middle of an active war. There's no game mechanic you can change to fix this problem because the problem is entirely caused by the players. Quote: Perhaps ultimately though, in the end, the quickest and easiest solution is to simply require all Hi-Sec wars to be mutual. CCP could code that in a week if they wanted to. IOW, make highsec 100% safe. No thanks. Perhaps EVE is not the game for you if you think this is a good idea?
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3868	Posted - 2017.04.09 09:16:14 - [63] - Quote Again no goodgreyer. You can already opt out of a wardec by simply changing corp. This takes little effort and costs nothing (or next to nothing if starting a new one). Eve is the kind of game where things can happen to you that you don't want. When im ratting in a wormhole i can be attacked at any time. When I'm in hisec i can be wardecced. Its part and parcel of the game. If you hate non-consensual pvp so much why are you playing a game that is designed around it? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 1217	Posted - 2017.04.10 13:35:20 - [64] - Quote Merin Ryskin wrote: Wars are not griefing. EVE is a PvP game whether you like it or not, and being engaged in PvP is just part of the game. Officially you are correct, and in times past wars actually used to be about players seeking out and fighting one another. However war decs ceased to be about "war" many years ago, and with the transition to the mass dec, gate / hub humping tactics currently employed they are in reality nothing more than officially sanctioned griefing. And the craziest part of this whole thing is the war dec players blame their targets and CCP for forcing them into their lazy gate / hub humping ways. Merin Ryskin wrote: Nor is this experience inherent to being in a player corp. Well-organized corps with smart leadership have little to fear from a war dec. The primary victims of war decs are the incompetent players that don't deserve to run a corp, the people that throw together a corp just for the sake of getting to be CEO, provide no leadership or training, and watch as their members mindlessly autopilot through Jita in the middle of an active war. There's no game mechanic you can change to fix this problem because the problem is entirely caused by the players. Your claim and your opinion but it is not supported by evidence. When you are a crop of 5 to 10 characters and you are war decced by a corp of 25 to 50 or more the size difference virtually eliminates the CEO and his/her skills from the equation. No matter how good you are it is simply impossible to overcome the odds especially when your attackers tuck their tails between their legs and run and hide like scared puppies the first time anything they cannot curb stomp shows up. And you are wrong forcing your attackers to turn tail and hide is not "winning" the war, the moment you return to your preferred game style they crawl out of hiding again. And that is perhaps the single biggest problem with war decs, there never is a real war with goals to be achieved and there is no victory conditions that the defenders can ever achieve no matter how well coordinated they are. And then there is the whole character and personal skills issue to deal with. This is a game no matter how hard you work on it you simply cannot force an industrial player to spend their time training and practicing PvP fitting and ship skills. You can ask, and you can hope that a war dec experience will cause them to train those skills but you cannot force them. Yes you can kick them from corp if they will not, but then if you run an indy corp the players and characters skills needed for the indy side are more important than PvP skills anyway so kicking them is counter productive. But all of that ignores the simple reality that in the vast majority of the wars you may be in as a CEO the single best option is to have players leave corp and bring them back after, encourage them to play on alt characters in another corp, or simply pursue other hobbies / interests for the week. Fighting and the inevitable losses simply leads to you being an even bigger target for future wars. Most importantly since there are no "victory" conditions that we as defenders can achieve, conditions that forces you and your ridiculous war to end immediately why even bother trying?
Arden Elenduil Unlimited Ripoff Works 458	Posted - 2017.04.10 16:01:28 - [65] - Quote I've said it before, I personally think wars should me more along the lines I've laid out in this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=501030&find=unread And I say this as a highsec solo/small group wardeccer that actually hunts his targets through space. I do not camp hubs or tradelanes.

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