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This horrendous deflation

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Shakuul Caldari The Imperial Commonwealth The Sundering	Posted - 2007.05.07 19:09:00 - [61] Originally by: Malachon Draco Actually deflation is still bad without lending because it also discourages consumption, lower consumption then leads to more deflation, which leads to excess stock and recession potentially. Of course, since Eve lacks certain mechanisms in the production department (no price for storage, no continuing costs for empire production and no unemployment) as well has a natural motivator for consumption through PvP that changes a bit, but deflation is not 'just a good thing' for Eve. Of course, personally I am very happy with lower T2 prices If deflation did in fact reduce production (in EVE), wouldn't you expect volumes to drop? I certainly haven't seen that.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.05.07 19:16:00 - [62] Originally by: Shakuul Originally by: Malachon Draco Actually deflation is still bad without lending because it also discourages consumption, lower consumption then leads to more deflation, which leads to excess stock and recession potentially. Of course, since Eve lacks certain mechanisms in the production department (no price for storage, no continuing costs for empire production and no unemployment) as well has a natural motivator for consumption through PvP that changes a bit, but deflation is not 'just a good thing' for Eve. Of course, personally I am very happy with lower T2 prices If deflation did in fact reduce production (in EVE), wouldn't you expect volumes to drop? I certainly haven't seen that. Eve works differently because production costs are near 0, and storage costs are zero, but for example I think lots of people are holding off on buying say an incognito ship data interface because it was sharply dropping in price. If you see a price of a data interface drop from 800m to 500m and you don't absolutely need it right away, wouldn't you wait to see if it was gonna drop further? That is the effect deflation has on consumption. signature removed - please contact us to find out why (include the URL of your sig) - Jacques([email protected])
Frezik Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.07 19:24:00 - [63] Originally by: Suada Umm.. Deflation makes money more valuable because your money has more purchasing power. I've never heard anyone complain about deflation. Dropping prices is a good thing. You should complain when prices are steadily increasing (inflation), because your money is worth less. No, deflation is not always a good thing. Deflation is good if (like me) you have a lot of your wealth saved in liquid isk. It's bad if you have your wealth in durable goods (like ships). The US dollar recently hit about $2/UK Pound. Is that good or bad? Well, it's good if you're in the UK and want to take a vacation in the US, since your money can go farther. It's bad if you're in the UK and have a lot of investments in American companies. Same thing here--it all depends on what you're doing with your money. In fact, inflation getting too low can be a bad sign in the real world. There's always a small unemployment rate from people being replaced by better technology (though this generally comes with more openings in higher-tech positions). A 2% unemployment rate is considered healthy, which does generate some inflation as a side effect.
Shakuul Caldari The Imperial Commonwealth The Sundering	Posted - 2007.05.07 19:32:00 - [64] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Shakuul Eve works differently because production costs are near 0, and storage costs are zero, but for example I think lots of people are holding off on buying say an incognito ship data interface because it was sharply dropping in price. If you see a price of a data interface drop from 800m to 500m and you don't absolutely need it right away, wouldn't you wait to see if it was gonna drop further? That is the effect deflation has on consumption. If you look at a lot of items the price was so high people were never buying them in the first place. The expected falling prices discourage consumption, but this is offset by the fact that prices are already so low. Before, cap recharger IIs were going for 25mil, you'd think twice before buying one. Now, with the price around 3mil, do you really care if they drop another 500k?
Aterna Talon's Grasp	Posted - 2007.05.07 20:11:00 - [65] Saying deflation is bad, and using examples of rare high cost items is foolish. Yes, people will reconsider investing in a rattlesnake if prices are dropping sharply. They don't want to have their investment devalued by half, when it is an investment on such a large scale. For a simple comparison, I would hold off on buying a new BMW if the price started falling from $60,000 by several grand a day. But by god, if I need to clean my bathroom, im not going to wait for a bottle of cleaner to bottom out at .57c from 2.87 before I clean. I am going to buy it now. If I need a PvP ship, I am not going to wait until tomorrow and see if that 10mn MWD II is half price, I am going to buy it, go out, and get blown up. That item is a disposable commodity to me. It is not an investment. All of the investment theory being flung about on this thread is referring to the economy as if people buy this stuff and stockpile it, only to sell it later. This isn't the case, as the vast majority of EVE's players buy it, use it, lose it, and repeat the process. The only thing this really affects, are the traders and industrialists who didn't do their market and FOTM research. - - - WTB new sig, evemail me please.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.08 00:34:00 - [66] Originally by: Aterna Saying deflation is bad, and using examples of rare high cost items is foolish. Yes, people will reconsider investing in a rattlesnake if prices are dropping sharply. They don't want to have their investment devalued by half, when it is an investment on such a large scale. For a simple comparison, I would hold off on buying a new BMW if the price started falling from $60,000 by several grand a day. But by god, if I need to clean my bathroom, im not going to wait for a bottle of cleaner to bottom out at .57c from 2.87 before I clean. I am going to buy it now. If I need a PvP ship, I am not going to wait until tomorrow and see if that 10mn MWD II is half price, I am going to buy it, go out, and get blown up. That item is a disposable commodity to me. It is not an investment. All of the investment theory being flung about on this thread is referring to the economy as if people buy this stuff and stockpile it, only to sell it later. This isn't the case, as the vast majority of EVE's players buy it, use it, lose it, and repeat the process. The only thing this really affects, are the traders and industrialists who didn't do their market and FOTM research. well made post ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Kylar Renpurs	Posted - 2007.05.08 01:29:00 - [67] Quote: All of the investment theory being flung about on this thread is referring to the economy as if people buy this stuff and stockpile it, only to sell it later. This isn't the case, as the vast majority of EVE's players buy it, use it, lose it, and repeat the process. Indeed,, QFT. It's the market monkeys who sit around all day tweaking prices by an isk here or 100 isk there who do this, all you have to do is look at some of the existing markets cough fernite carbide cough to see examples of this, thus a lot of my reasoning behind the link in my sig. The things which affect market prices is A) the difficulty to manufacture (combination of skills and acquisition of materials) B) the availability of materials C) the number of people manufacturing D) the number of sales While CCP controls availability factors, it's the players and the choices they make as to whether they want to put in x-effort who affect prices. With the prevalence of Invention, T2 prices have dropped sure, but look at the price of named items now, there's been a marked increase in costs (just look at Arbalest Heavy Missile Launchers),, so regardless,, A) something drops in price=more people are doing it B) more people are doing it = more demand for materials/tools to manufacture C) more demand for materials/tools to manufacture = increase in price of those items and so on. Improve Market Competition!
Nyabinghi Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.05.08 04:34:00 - [68] Just outta curiosity I ask: Wouldn't deflation mean more PVP and less likelihood of blobs? Meaning that if it took you only 4 days to earn the isk to buy a certain ship + mods as oppose to a week or more then the possibility of losing said ship and mods would not be so heavy a set back. Thus people would be willing to take greater risks and not wait till they have a 10+ ship fleet before undocking and engaging other ships. ***
thetwilitehour Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.05.08 06:26:00 - [69] Even if the Eve economy is overall showing deflation, its not really a bad thing because markets in eve dont really work the way they do in the real world. The danger in deflation in the real world is that goods will not be produced because the profit from the goods is going down, so nominal wages drop due to unemployment, and a recession is created. In Eve there isnt really "unemployment" although ISK may be sitting unused. In essence since projects do not pay off as much as they would during inflation (because once you buy the goods the value of the goods drops etc..) this could lead to a decrease in real GDP for all of Eve. But improvment in living conditions for Eve citizens isnt dependent on an increasing real GDP, its contigent on the purchasing power of their isk vs a relatively fixed market basket. Anyway whats really going on is a market correction because the T2 market had a bubble (both in BPOS and produced items) due to the artificial barrier to competition. This is what is supposed to happen when that barrier is removed - price levels drop. As more people are willing to purchase goods, the short term aggregate demand rises, the overall quantity of goods supplied rises even if prices drop. In short - good for inventors, good for your average eve player, bad for T2 BPO holders.
Groox Enterprise Estonia	Posted - 2007.05.08 09:57:00 - [70] I liked the reference to Market PvP in case of T2 stuff. You just got owned. Your money making skills were not enough to predict invention impact while others reacted swiftly.
OneSock PLuSQuAMPERFEkT iNc	Posted - 2007.05.08 10:15:00 - [71] Good IMO. Cheaper ships = more pew pew.
Gefex Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.08 11:40:00 - [72] Originally by: Cudaya Ebsldes There in short is no value to isk. There is no value in relation of one article to another. All is constantly in flux, a flux not caused by the players actions but by the devs adding content without linking it to anything other than the seeming idea of scarcity or their desire to influence PVP game play (with a bone or two (or is it a misdirectiion)thrown to PVE). True, but to create a true 'free' economy the players themselves would have to control the influx of new items and consumables. In the real world, the markets are driven by innovation, r&d, improved manufacturing processes etc. Not just supply and demand. I think we can all see the obvious flaws with this system .. (the minute we see the first Frigate mounted DDD's? ) There HAS to be some degree of control, personally I think EVE has the best market system of any MMO. True its not perfect, but really the only mistake has been the T2 lottery system. Which is just now balancing itself out. The real winners here are the people who are shrewd enough to see whats coming, and sell fast when they see market crashes coming in certain areas. The dev blog is kinda like your own personal stock market predictor.
Ethelda Green Gecko Inc. Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2007.05.08 11:45:00 - [73] Originally by: Varia Net Edited by: Varia Net on 06/05/2007 21:15:05 is ruining the game for me A LOT so when you selling your BPOs?
Pimm Gallente BVB LOGISTICS INC.	Posted - 2007.05.08 11:59:00 - [74] you can't really compare MMO economy with real world economy. First real world is larger much larger and there is competition alot of competition. If you decide to sell a car 20,000$ someone will come and sell something similar for 18,000$ Sure it won't have a cup holder but you don't care. Also in the real world people won;t give you 90% of their salaries so you can build a Titan. All inflation in MMO's are based on player greed, plain and simple. But the greed factor will always go away as more and more people reach the elevated plateau. I find markets in MMO's often inflated by Gold/ISK buyers, but once those guys have got what they wanted they go away until something better comes along. The average player with common sense won't pay stupid price for stuff, they'll train to make what they need first. Weather is Spellcrafting in DAOC/Warcraft or Manufacturing in EvE. Eventually the cost of stuff comes down to what it should be.
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2007.05.08 12:11:00 - [75] Edited by: Chrysalis D''lilth on 08/05/2007 12:08:45 So T2 BPO Owners can now only make a HUGE profit instead of a Ridiculously HUGE profit? (I completely fail to see btw how a new player to eve is going to feel upset that he has to pay only 2-4 million for some T2 mods instead of 6-10 million - I can't tell you how mad I am at having to pay less than 25million for a covert ops cloak than the 80 million I used too pay!) You still get to produce unlimited mods without having to pay invention costs which are the most expensive part of the new T2 production.... Without those costs, a T2 mod costs you what to produce ? 200,000 isk tops in materials with a sale price tag of over 4 million? Cry me a river, invention is a great step towards balancing the playing field and a massive improvement over how T2 used to be handed out. Its the best industrial change thats been made to eve in the last year.
Grimster Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.05.08 12:19:00 - [76] As the OP stated there's not only a problem with the T2 market (but I'd consider this a lesser problem - T2's been well overinflated for the longest time) but the start-up corps are having some real difficulty making T1 builds worth doing. Example: You can buy a Thorax cruiser for about 200k over NPC mineral price, this makes stuff like hauling electronic parts for NPC corps way more profitable than building, it's hardly worth the outlay for the BPO with prices that low as you're barely covering costs. AFAIK it's the recent Zydrine crash that's at least partly to blame for this due to the opening of the new drone areas and the loot drops. Blog at: The Jammy Blog
Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.08 12:39:00 - [77] Edited by: Dolika on 08/05/2007 12:41:03 Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth Without those costs, a T2 mod costs you what to produce ? 200,000 isk tops in materials with a sale price tag of over 4 million? Which item, besides the T2 cap recharger who has been debated over and over and agree the cartel was a ripoff of all eve players, has such a ratio? Can you name 5 BPO's out of hundreds handed out? Also mind that most people who own a T2 BPO today have bought it and have not scored 30 BPOs through lottery. EDIT: P.S. It's not like you stick 200k isk int the factory slot and get a mod out. Have you seen build requirements for T2 modules - ever? 17 components are needed to build a bustard: http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/EN/ships/transportships/caldari/12731.asp Have you tried logistics on that? Multiply that by 10 if the badass carebear owns 10 BPOs
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.05.08 12:47:00 - [78] Edited by: ry ry on 08/05/2007 12:43:55 HACs
Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.08 12:54:00 - [79] Otherwise i agree with the majority of posters in this thread. Prices of T2 stuff have gone down to normal levels and that will add to the enjoyment of thousands of players in eve who can now finally afford the top of the line setups. Big ups to CCP for having the balls but don't go overboard with it
Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.08 13:26:00 - [80] Originally by: ry ry Edited by: ry ry on 08/05/2007 12:43:55 HACs Good one. HACs had exorbant prices going up to 260million for a vagabond but that did not stop people from buying them so it was more like supply vs. demand that was driving the price upwards. AFAIK there was no cartel involved in fixing the prices of HACs unlike the T2 cap recharger. It's CCP's mistake when they thought 7 ships a day can satisfy their demand and dispite the fact the number of subscriptions doubled since the BPO's were seeded they were sticking their heads in the sand and not listening to the public outcry for more BPOs. Only recently this has changed and i applaude CCP for finally seeidng more BPOs and bringing out invention.
Etruscus	Posted - 2007.05.08 14:40:00 - [81] Originally by: Varia Net The market is a mess, the oridinary players who don't got the new BPOs first hand as a friend's gift to a favored corp or alliance come to late and meet a flooded market. The market is broke. I shifted some of the above sentences around to make his bad grammer and poor logic look (and feel) more like poetry. I feel I have done the community a service in this thread. Feel free to send me ISK donations. I have also decided to make a haiku in tribute to the above: Supply and Demand Is the only Law in Eve Please, get used to it Let's see if we can make this the new haiku thread.
Spaceman Jack	Posted - 2007.05.08 15:33:00 - [82] Well, as much as I do not like to see my profits go down either, I can hardly say it is broke. This was intended and its not necessarily a bad thing. Remember.. T3.. T4...T5... they are all coming about. The cycle will start over again so get creative.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.08 17:39:00 - [83] Edited by: SiJira on 08/05/2007 17:35:48 Originally by: Spaceman Jack Well, as much as I do not like to see my profits go down either, I can hardly say it is broke. This was intended and its not necessarily a bad thing. Remember.. T3.. T4...T5... they are all coming about. The cycle will start over again so get creative. that will be dumb as heck unless instead of makin t3 fully better just make them more unique (thats how its gonna be) and do the same with t4 and do the same with t5 ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Sexy Schoolgirl	Posted - 2007.05.08 18:38:00 - [84] Look at both sides... before you had 90% of Eve whining about price gouging cartels holding monopolies on t2... NOW, you have about 10% of Eve (those t2 makers) whining about the low prices others have flooded the market with. Seems fine to me. T2 has been a new tech for quite some time, its standard now, and prices are finally near normal. All t2 makers who whine can just bend over and take a wiff of my sweaty balls... thats what hard work is about... blood, sweat, and tears... not a lucky lottery. Whine away t2 makers.
Earthan Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters	Posted - 2007.05.09 04:23:00 - [85] Originally by: Varia Net Edited by: Varia Net on 06/05/2007 21:15:05 is ruining the game for me A LOT and I'm not the only one. T1 ship prices, T2 ship prices, faction ship prices... they've all become worth only a fraction of what they were like 4 months ago. Not to speak of T2 modules. The market is a mess, the oridinary players, who don't got the new BPOs first hand, as a friend's gift to a favored corp or alliance, come to late, and meet a flooded market. The market is broke, and the deflation is making my assets worth a lot less than before. If the assets' value is not guaranteed, I won't be bothered much longer to collect more of them in this game. disagree t2 prices seem to get reasonable at last. Only thik i agree zyd prices seem to go mad... Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
Mortania Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.	Posted - 2007.05.09 04:51:00 - [86] [tinfoilhat] Look, if they didn't make invention now, how else would BoD keep their competitive edge? Now that they can't keep their BPOs anymore, might as well take thier ball and go home, and lock all of their 100s of B into a higher worth by inflating the worth of ISK. [/tinfoilhat] I have to say, I'm terribly surprised I havent seen a post like that yet. Bravo, EVE, we are getting more mature! * breaks her arm patting herself on her back. ---

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