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Althalus Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
112
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Posted - 2017.04.19 12:38:53 -
[31] - Quote
WCS shouldn't be removed but there must be 'real' drawbacks using them, such as align speed or whatever (because target speed / rage or whatever it is i don't remember... sure lol).
On the other hand, in some cases it'd be good if they were "disabled" in some situation (most likely, FW combat sites)
The goal is not to remove them, but have people making the choice of "WCS over something as useful" (let's say, agility or speed for example, which works sometime better than WCS) :)
EsiPy - Python 2.7 / 3.3+ Swagger Client based on pyswagger for ESI
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
90
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Posted - 2017.04.19 13:19:32 -
[32] - Quote
This strikes me as bad an idea as the reverse... asking CCP to remove scrams/disruptors.
It's rock/paper/scissors. In order to catch someone who's stabbed out... you have to scram out your fit. If you don't, they can escape. But scramming out your fit means you have less of something else that puts you at a disadvantage when you run into a plexer who wants to fight.
Every measure has a counter-measure. That's how it is supposed to work. Just because you don't want to employ more scrams than he has stabs because it nerfs your pvp fit is really your problem... not his. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
1225
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 13:29:29 -
[33] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Lolwut. Do you know anything about FW PvP? The target has every advantage in this situation, not the hunter. If they're spamming d-scan with a short radius they'll have plenty of advance warning of any ship warping to their site and can align out. Then if the potential threat enters the site they immediately warp out before the hunter can finish exiting warp. And even if they miss the hunter on d-scan if they're smart they're going to move away from the warp-in point so that they still have time to align out and warp even if they don't start trying until after the hunter appears on their overview. Yes I have had characters in FW in years past, and yes I know what it takes to hunt them down I have a scan character that does that every day so others can kill them.
I also know that the max you can get with WCS mods on a T1 Frigate is 1 point per slot. I also know that using the T2 scrambler YOU can get 2 points per slot. Yes I know WCS are low and scamble are mids. All this means that you can fit twice as many points in scramble per slot as they can fit stabilization. With all of this and chosing the proper ship for the job at hand you will ALWAYS be able to fit more points than they can.
So let's review these T1 frigate against T1 frigate problems you are having.
1. With proper ship choice you can always fit more points in scramble than they have in stabilization yet your targets get away. Failure on your part.
2. They are willing to sacrifice fits slots they would rather have for other things in order to fit those WCS, you are not willing to trade off something you want for the ability to tackle and hold them in place. Failure on your part.
3. You want CCP to change the game instead of adapting to the situations you face. Failure number 3.
Merin Ryskin wrote:You aren't going to counter a full rack of WCS with any ship that isn't an automatic lossmail against everything but stabbed farmers. And the existence of a single faction frigate which mitigates the problem is not an overall solution. I shouldn't be limited to a single ship choice to get fights. I should not be limited to 1 single battleship that has drones as a primary weapons system AND gets bonuses to missiles, yet there is only 1 ship in the game that has that combination, like me if you want to fill a specific set of requirements there is often just one single ship in the game that can fill those requirements. asking for CCP to change the game instead of using the proper ship is just another in your long line of failures.
EvE is about choices and the consequences that go along with those choices, the FW farmers are making choices and willing to suffer the consequences that may come as a result of those choices, yet you are not, and yes you do have choices. You could use a ship with a more appropriate set of traits and slot layout as Daichi suggests, but you are not willing to do that because. Another failure on your part.
You could fly what ever ship you want and sacrifice your fit so you can tackle and kill the farmers and take your chances with all the others you may come across, again you are not willing to do that because. Yet another failure on your part.
Perhaps your ultimate failure comes when comparing you to the carebear highsec miners because you have exactly the same attitude they do. They do not want to sacrifice in their fit for max yield so they can have a tank to prevent death by ganking so they want CCP to change the game to suit their wants. You are not willing to make sacrifices in your fit or fly the proper ship so you want CCP to change the game. So I give you the same advice everyone around here gives those carebear miners, you have to choose, tackle and kill the farmers but face death by other pirates because. Or fit to go toe to toe with the other pirates and watch the farmers warp away. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2564
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 13:34:26 -
[34] - Quote
Max Deveron wrote:AAaaannnndddd there is the problem.
Pirate, not Militia, entering Plex sites.......
You know what, I could agree with you maybe.....
If first anybody not Militia entering one of these complex sites automatically becomes suspect (flashy yellow) the moment you hit the "use the acceleration" button on your UI.
Because without that, if someone cares about their Standings....they have to wait for you to shoot first, and as a non-military pilot or such, you have no legal business being in one of those sights.
I guess that is in the fine print on the FW application? FW is for FW pilots only? No 3rd party intervention should be allowed?
AAaaaaaannnnnddddd there is the problem.
You don't understand why FW is in LS. You think FW sites deserve to be farmed free of any interference. FW is for militias in LS to conquer and control those LS systems and get benefits from them. FW is not a farming scheme where players have characters on both sides of the overlying conflict and manipulate faction control of LS for max profits....... OK, well it isn't supposed to be.
You're ignoring the original design of the FW feature and trying to make it more risk averse and farmer friendly. You desire FW without the pvp part. There is a computer game known as Farmville that has all the features you desire and none of this bothersome 3rd party interference.
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Cade Windstalker
1388
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Posted - 2017.04.19 13:46:07 -
[35] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Nope. The way to avoid engaging is situational awareness, and I've explicitly said that I have no problem with people carefully watching for a threat and escaping before I can catch them. The issue here is entirely with lazy and incompetent players who ignore the need to watch for potential threats, because they know they have enough WCS to just warp out if anyone tries to attack them.
If it won't be you then it'll be someone else complaining about insta-warps or ECM or...
If you really wanted to catch these guys you could fit up a triple-scram setup or something and give the really inattentive ones a nasty surprise. The reason no one does this is because they don't like the trade-off they have to make.
Merin Ryskin wrote:Speak for yourself. I do plenty of ISK farming in 0.0 with a risk of being caught, because I know how to minimize those risks and keep a net positive ISK/hour.
Thank you for providing more support for my argument? That is, in point of fact, a source of ISK being exploited. We've seen this over and over with things in Eve. If something can't be done profitably with any consistency it won't be done, at least not by any population of players large enough to justify investment in the feature.
Merin Ryskin wrote:Maybe they will if they're forced to learn, instead of being coddled with an auto-escape option that allows them to avoid learning how to win a fight.
I highly highly doubt that, they'll just swap from WCS to full nano/inertial stab fits and continue to attempt to run away, because what they're after is ISK not a fight. Believe it or not the vast majority of *anyone* farming FW plexes out in low probably knows how to play the game, they're just out there to make ISK and have determined that running cheap stab fits and fleeing when challenges is more profitable.
Merin Ryskin wrote:That's unfortunate, because whoever said that is pretty clueless on game design. There are plenty of options for controlling whether or not you engage in a fight: situational awareness, ECM/neuts/etc to remove points, fast align times to get out before you can be tackled, fast ships that can burn out of tackle range and warp off, staying off the warp-in point so you have time to escape before tackle can close in and catch you, etc. All of these are far more interesting than declaring that you will never be caught by a solo player and filling your lows with WCS.
Situational awareness only gets you so far, ECM and neuts don't work on a large variety of ships and ECM specifically is ineffective without a bonused ship, align time is the worst tank above insta-warp, the list of arguments against your arguments goes on.
What was said at the panel was perfectly good game design from the view of Eve as a whole, as opposed to someone focused just on FW plexes. It didn't rule out tweaking the bonuses and penalties for WCS but I don't see CCP ever completely removing them. That's an unrealistic expectation. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
1225
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 14:49:04 -
[36] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:They could fight back if they didn't waste valuable slots on WCS. And by removing their "get out of jail free" card they'll be forced to learn how to fight back if they want to accomplish anything. Wanted to deal with this and one other in a separate post. You are missing the most important aspect of this whole thing.
THEY DO NOT WANT TO FIGHT.
Fights do not win FW capturing complexes does. Fights do not make LP / ISK capturing complexes does. And so fights with other players enemy faction or non-aligned pirates like you is to be avoided whenever possible. To put this another way if you want fights in your FW experience then you need to FORCE the other players you come into contact with into those fights.
Setting this and all of my previous posts aside you still miss one essential element. To those carebears or eFW farmers that do not want to fight stabing to hell and back so we can get away from you IS A WIN for us in the only game we care about and that is not having to fight YOU. And when we are able to do this tears that flood the EvE universe and forums like this from people like you are only more frosting on an already sweet piece of cake.
Althalus Stenory wrote:The goal is not to remove them, but have people making the choice of "WCS over something as useful" (let's say, agility or speed for example, which works sometime better than WCS) :) What useless non-sense is this. Fitting WCS already has some serious drawbacks as in they use a mid slot. Resistance mods, damage mods, damage application mods, propulsion mods, shield reps, capacitor mods, warp scramblers and disrupters are just some of the mod choices you have to make to fit WCS and let us not forget about the sig radius increase that they cause. The WCS are fine the way they are and those who choose to use them have more than enough compromises to deal with. What we need are fewer entitled players like you and the OP that believe that you should not have to make fitting choices / compromises to be able to counter the WCS. |
Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
54
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Posted - 2017.04.19 16:29:42 -
[37] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:
THEY DO NOT WANT TO FIGHT.
Fights do not win FW capturing complexes does. Fights do not make LP / ISK capturing complexes does.
And so fights with other players enemy faction or non-aligned pirates like you is to be avoided whenever possible. To put this another way if you want fights in your FW experience then you need to FORCE the other players you come into contact with into those fights.
That is the player's purpose for being there, but ask yourself what the purpose of the FW is. Is it for people to make LP/ISK, or is the LP/ISK an incentive for players to go there so that they can get fights?
Allow me to bold the relevant part of the name: Faction Warfare
When they rename the sites to Faction isk farming, then you argument becomes relevant.
If they want to avoid fights, they can run missions in high sec. Players shouldn't be making obscene isk running away from content.
Edit:
Donnachadh wrote: What useless non-sense is this. Fitting WCS already has some serious drawbacks as in they use a mid slot.
Since when? WCS use lowslots. Which means you can fit as much tank as you want. And if their goal is to run away like little bitches, what compromises are they actually making apart from none? They aren't looking to fight anyways, the drawbacks are irrelevant to them. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3310
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 16:50:43 -
[38] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Merin Ryskin wrote:Donnachadh wrote:You have failed in every way that it is possible for you to fail in a situation where you should have had the upper hand. Lolwut. Do you know anything about FW PvP? The target has every advantage in this situation, not the hunter. If they're spamming d-scan with a short radius they'll have plenty of advance warning of any ship warping to their site and can align out. Then if the potential threat enters the site they immediately warp out before the hunter can finish exiting warp. And even if they miss the hunter on d-scan if they're smart they're going to move away from the warp-in point so that they still have time to align out and warp even if they don't start trying until after the hunter appears on their overview. Now, I have no problem with that part of the situation. A target escaping because of superior situational awareness is fine. My problem is that WCS eliminates the need to pay attention to any of those things. You don't need to spam d-scan or even pay attention to the overview. You can just sit on the warp-in beacon at 0km and press "warp" as soon as you hear the scram notification, and because you have lows full of WCS you're guaranteed to escape. Maybe make it so FW players cannot fit stabs on their non-hauler ships and restrict haulers so they cannot be used in these sites.
Or just don't change anything since there are counter to stabs anyway. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
90
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 16:54:58 -
[39] - Quote
Look... if we're talking about farming plexes, there are lots of things that can be done to limit that.
I don't think removing WCS is the answer for that. WCS is the counter to Scram/Disruptor use and I don't think you should remove one without removing the other.
I favor the idea of placing every FW plex inside a bubble that extends 10km past the range where you can trigger the plex. Other than farming in an interceptor, you're going to risk PvP when you enter a FW plex.
It's two different issues. FW plex farming is an issue. WCS are not. |
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
472
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 01:01:23 -
[40] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Rawketsled wrote:Give them some sort of spool-up or preparation mechanic - either a warm-up timer like MJDs, or make the align speed higher to make them stay on grid longer. The point is to make them stay on grid for a little while unless they're paying attention and can pre-empt your tackle (of course in this case they should just bloody warp out). The problem, again, is that things like this encourage blobbing. If you know you only have a fixed time before the WCS activates and breaks your point then you have to bring more dps to kill your target before they can escape. That gets you the kill, but makes the fight much less entertaining because it's so one-sided. Then a cap-intensive active WCS is the better alternative here.
WCS is the natural counter to a point. Neuting is the counter to the WCS.
If you want fights to be solo/fairer, then fit neuts and drain them before they warp out. |
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Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
472
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 01:06:27 -
[41] - Quote
Max Deveron wrote:AAaaannnndddd there is the problem.
Pirate, not Militia, entering Plex sites.......
You know what, I could agree with you maybe.....
If first anybody not Militia entering one of these complex sites automatically becomes suspect (flashy yellow) the moment you hit the "use the acceleration" button on your UI.
Because without that, if someone cares about their Standings....they have to wait for you to shoot first, and as a non-military pilot or such, you have no legal business being in one of those sights.
Pirates don't worry about security status. Making them flashy-yellow isn't going to matter because they're almost always minus-five security anyway. |
Alessienne Ellecon
Solitude Rangers
102
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 09:22:22 -
[42] - Quote
Rawketsled wrote:Merin Ryskin wrote:Rawketsled wrote:Give them some sort of spool-up or preparation mechanic - either a warm-up timer like MJDs, or make the align speed higher to make them stay on grid longer. The point is to make them stay on grid for a little while unless they're paying attention and can pre-empt your tackle (of course in this case they should just bloody warp out). The problem, again, is that things like this encourage blobbing. If you know you only have a fixed time before the WCS activates and breaks your point then you have to bring more dps to kill your target before they can escape. That gets you the kill, but makes the fight much less entertaining because it's so one-sided. Then a cap-intensive active WCS is the better alternative here. WCS is the natural counter to a point. Neuting is the counter to the WCS. If you want fights to be solo/fairer, then fit neuts and drain them before they warp out.
That's not strictly necessary. Don't forget that cap is required to warp, so if you neut someone right down to zero, they will only be able to flee a short distance, in which case you can easily catch up and hit them some more.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
326
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Posted - 2017.04.20 10:02:12 -
[43] - Quote
Alessienne Ellecon wrote:That's not strictly necessary. Don't forget that cap is required to warp, so if you neut someone right down to zero, they will only be able to flee a short distance, in which case you can easily catch up and hit them some more.
Lolwut? That's a pretty impressive ignorance of game mechanics. Even a tiny amount of cap is enough to warp way off grid, and you'll have enough cap to complete your escape long before anyone can get scan probes on you and catch you. The fact that you don't immediately get to your destination is meaningless when "a short distance" is thousands of kilometers, if not millions.
Donnachadh wrote:Fights do not win FW capturing complexes does. Fights do not make LP / ISK capturing complexes does. And so fights with other players enemy faction or non-aligned pirates like you is to be avoided whenever possible. To put this another way if you want fights in your FW experience then you need to FORCE the other players you come into contact with into those fights.
And this is exactly the problem with the situation: faction WARFARE is being used for ISK farming, not war. The strategy of "fit WCS and avoid combat at all costs" should not be profitable. The ISK is supposed to be a reward for engaging in PvP, not the primary objective. Nerfing WCS to make stabbed plex farming impossible would be a nice first step in removing the ISK farmers from FW.
Cade Windstalker wrote:If you really wanted to catch these guys you could fit up a triple-scram setup or something and give the really inattentive ones a nasty surprise. The reason no one does this is because they don't like the trade-off they have to make.
No, the reason is that the tradeoff is impossible to make. A triple-scram setup is a suicidally stupid fit on many ships, especially the T1 frigates that are popular in FW. If you even have enough mids to do it you're giving up your AB/MWD, which means the only thing you can possibly engage is stabbed farmers. Any PvP opponent is going to kill you effortlessly. And you probably aren't even going to catch the one thing you can beat, since it's so easy to get out of scram range against a stationary opponent.
Quote:I highly highly doubt that, they'll just swap from WCS to full nano/inertial stab fits and continue to attempt to run away, because what they're after is ISK not a fight.
And, as I said, that's fine. At least that involves superior situational awareness and being faster than the hunter, not simply fitting WCS and declaring themselves immune to PvP.
Quote:Situational awareness only gets you so far, ECM and neuts don't work on a large variety of ships and ECM specifically is ineffective without a bonused ship, align time is the worst tank above insta-warp, the list of arguments against your arguments goes on.
Sounds like you don't know PvP very well. Situational awareness is an auto-win because a target will appear on d-scan with plenty of time for you to escape. When combined with a fast align time it's almost impossible to catch a ship that is paying attention, unless they're willing to fight.
And yes, those other things are situational, but that's kind of the point. They require a good strategy and knowing how to win the fight, not simply declaring "I can not be tackled" and turning off PvP. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
326
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 10:09:55 -
[44] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:EvE is about choices and the consequences that go along with those choices, the FW farmers are making choices and willing to suffer the consequences that may come as a result of those choices, yet you are not, and yes you do have choices.
The point that the pro-WCS side keeps ignoring is that the FW farmers don't make sacrifices. At no point does fitting WCS interfere with their ability to farm ISK at maximum efficiency. There mere presence in the plex counts towards capturing it, no matter what ship/fit they have. If you're a plex farmer there is literally no reason to use anything but a full rack of WCS, preferably on a ship with an inherent WCS bonus.
And of course the same is true for other areas of ISK farming. Running relic/data sites? Fit all the WCS you want, at no point will it reduce your ISK per hour. Even most combat PvE is easy enough that you can fit enough WCS to be immune to most PvP ships without sacrificing much.
Quote:You could use a ship with a more appropriate set of traits and slot layout as Daichi suggests, but you are not willing to do that because. Another failure on your part.
And, again, this is a sign of a serious balance issue if only a very small number of ships can even get fights at all. The fact that a small number of ships can, with specific fits, have enough points to catch stabbed farmers (usually at the expensive of being able to engage anything else) does not negate the fact that most ships/fits can't do it. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services Singularity Syndicate
2141
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 10:58:56 -
[45] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Donnachadh wrote:EvE is about choices and the consequences that go along with those choices, the FW farmers are making choices and willing to suffer the consequences that may come as a result of those choices, yet you are not, and yes you do have choices. The point that the pro-WCS side keeps ignoring is that the FW farmers don't make sacrifices. At no point does fitting WCS interfere with their ability to farm ISK at maximum efficiency. There mere presence in the plex counts towards capturing it, no matter what ship/fit they have. If you're a plex farmer there is literally no reason to use anything but a full rack of WCS, preferably on a ship with an inherent WCS bonus. And of course the same is true for other areas of ISK farming. Running relic/data sites? Fit all the WCS you want, at no point will it reduce your ISK per hour. Even most combat PvE is easy enough that you can fit enough WCS to be immune to most PvP ships without sacrificing much. Quote:You could use a ship with a more appropriate set of traits and slot layout as Daichi suggests, but you are not willing to do that because. Another failure on your part. And, again, this is a sign of a serious balance issue if only a very small number of ships can even get fights at all. The fact that a small number of ships can, with specific fits, have enough points to catch stabbed farmers (usually at the expensive of being able to engage anything else) does not negate the fact that most ships/fits can't do it.
Surely this is a problem with the way faction war works, not with the way WCS work.
Also I thought the maximum low slots on a frig was four? So if you fit one scram and one faction scram you will be able to pin down any frigate no matter what they have fitted. You'd still have spare mids and no problem with your usual lows if you are in an armour frig. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2568
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 11:30:00 -
[46] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Donnachadh wrote:EvE is about choices and the consequences that go along with those choices, the FW farmers are making choices and willing to suffer the consequences that may come as a result of those choices, yet you are not, and yes you do have choices. The point that the pro-WCS side keeps ignoring is that the FW farmers don't make sacrifices. At no point does fitting WCS interfere with their ability to farm ISK at maximum efficiency. There mere presence in the plex counts towards capturing it, no matter what ship/fit they have. If you're a plex farmer there is literally no reason to use anything but a full rack of WCS, preferably on a ship with an inherent WCS bonus. And of course the same is true for other areas of ISK farming. Running relic/data sites? Fit all the WCS you want, at no point will it reduce your ISK per hour. Even most combat PvE is easy enough that you can fit enough WCS to be immune to most PvP ships without sacrificing much. Quote:You could use a ship with a more appropriate set of traits and slot layout as Daichi suggests, but you are not willing to do that because. Another failure on your part. And, again, this is a sign of a serious balance issue if only a very small number of ships can even get fights at all. The fact that a small number of ships can, with specific fits, have enough points to catch stabbed farmers (usually at the expensive of being able to engage anything else) does not negate the fact that most ships/fits can't do it.
I don't think anyone is arguing the facts of your arguments. The issue though lies with FW and not w/ stabs. Changing stabs would change the whole game. The point (from some of us) is leave stabs as is and fix the thing that's really broken.
It seems that the thing that is really broken is how FW is more about farming isk than about fighting over territory in LS. I'll ask you this: Does a FW beacon bubble and web tower seem like a reasonable fix to you? It would make stabs mostly irrelevant in the FW sites and require commitment and risk from anyone looking to farm the isk.
There is a lot of pve in eve that gives fairly decent isk return with minimal or no commitment. I think a general improvement to pve in specific and the game in general would be to require some more commitment when a player warps into a pve site. Bubbles, scrams, webs (I'm talking multiple like in sleeper sites, not just one suicidal npc frigate that cycles his point intermittently). And to be clear it should scale with the isk value of the site and the true sec of the system (and for obvious reasons if an alliance upgrades the pve in their system it would go hand in hand that the difficulty and commitment would go up with it).
FW is a specific slice of Eve and the stabbed plexer farmer is a thin slice of that. Fix the thin slice, don't change the whole game for that thin slice. |
Cade Windstalker
1412
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 13:18:36 -
[47] - Quote
Not a fan of having a site that webs, but having one that points could be a reasonable solution here.
The real point here is that the issues people have with FWar are complex and resist simple solutions. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3319
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 14:25:00 -
[48] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Not a fan of having a site that webs, but having one that points could be a reasonable solution here.
The real point here is that the issues people have with FWar are complex and resist simple solutions.
Navy Maulus solve all stabs issue. A base scram will disrupt for 4 points requiring 4 stabs fitted to escape. If you really want to go full try-hard on the farmers, go with a faction scram for 5 points of disruption. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
1227
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 15:02:49 -
[49] - Quote
Old Pervert wrote:That is the player's purpose for being there, but ask yourself what the purpose of the FW is. Is it for people to make LP/ISK, or is the LP/ISK an incentive for players to go there so that they can get fights?
Allow me to bold the relevant part of the name: Faction Warfare Under the current system there is no real benefit to engaging in a fight. Since you have to capture plexes to force a system into a vulnerable state and you cannot capture plexes when you are fighting others the system actually makes it better to avoid the fight and move on to another plex elsewhere. Even as defenders it is better for the overall goal as well as more profitable (ISK / LP) to simply go out and recapture a plex rather than fight to prevent one from being captured. Combine all of this with when and how the LP / ISK is actually paid out (when you capture a plex) and there is very little reason to actually engage in anything that resembles "war" or even a one on one fight over a plex. Setting that aside everything in this game right now is either exploited for LP / ISK or it is ignored by the vast majority of the players and FW is no different. So it you want some actual "war" in your FW then you need to lobby CCP to change the system so you only get paid LP / ISK for engaging in an actual war. But I caution you to be careful what you ask for because it is my belief that if FW was changed to actually promote war not only by game mechanics but by LP / ISK payouts the vast majority of the players that are currently in FW will simply do elsewhere in the game to make LP / ISK so you will likely have very few targets to shoot at anyway.
Old Pervert wrote:If they want to avoid fights, they can run missions in high sec. Players shouldn't be making obscene isk running away from content. Why should they go to high sec when they can make more LP / ISK farming plexes in FW? and that is assuming their sec status would even allow them to go into high sec to run missions.
Players should not be allowed to make obscene amounts of ISK running from content in nul sec and worm holes yet that happens every single minute that EvE is online with players in it, why should FW be any different.
Beside those FW farmers are not running from content, they are running from YOU and a form of content they do not want any part of,it is up to you and others like the OP to make them pay for their farming ways. Except you are just like to OP you have that entitled attitude that you should not have to compromise your fits to stop them so you come here and complain about a module that is well balanced as witnessed by comments from many of the players here.
Old PervertDonnachadh wrote:What useless non-sense is this. Fitting WCS already has some serious drawbacks as in they use a mid slot. Since when? WCS use lowslots. Which means you can fit as much tank as you want. And if their goal is to run away like little bitches, what compromises are they actually making apart from none? They aren't looking to fight anyways, the drawbacks are irrelevant to them.[/quote wrote: Oops got me on that one. Even accounting for my mistake there are more than enough negative aspects to using the WCS to balance them and players like Serendipity and Daichi are in agreement with me on that point.
[quote=Merin Ryskin]The point that the pro-WCS side keeps ignoring is that the FW farmers don't make sacrifices. At no point does fitting WCS interfere with their ability to farm ISK at maximum efficiency. There mere presence in the plex counts towards capturing it, no matter what ship/fit they have. If you're a plex farmer there is literally no reason to use anything but a full rack of WCS, preferably on a ship with an inherent WCS bonus.
It is only your opinion that stabbed out farmers make no sacrifices in their fits but that does not make it true. The fact that most of the others here in this topic think the WCS are well balanced and have more than sufficient compromises when fitting them tends to prove you wrong as does the simple fact that CCP has not changed them in forever.
And you keep ignoring a simple fact about the game of EvE. There is ALWAYS a ship that is well suited to any situation you may face. There is NEVER a single ship that is well suited for all situations you face. You have been given many options that you can emplooy to solve your problems, yet you continue to insist the WCS are broken and need to be changed or removed. Seems to me the real problem here is you, your attitude and your expectations. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
93
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Posted - 2017.04.20 15:24:04 -
[50] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Donnachadh wrote:EvE is about choices and the consequences that go along with those choices, the FW farmers are making choices and willing to suffer the consequences that may come as a result of those choices, yet you are not, and yes you do have choices. The point that the pro-WCS side keeps ignoring is that the FW farmers don't make sacrifices. At no point does fitting WCS interfere with their ability to farm ISK at maximum efficiency. There mere presence in the plex counts towards capturing it, no matter what ship/fit they have. If you're a plex farmer there is literally no reason to use anything but a full rack of WCS, preferably on a ship with an inherent WCS bonus. And of course the same is true for other areas of ISK farming. Running relic/data sites? Fit all the WCS you want, at no point will it reduce your ISK per hour. Even most combat PvE is easy enough that you can fit enough WCS to be immune to most PvP ships without sacrificing much. Quote:You could use a ship with a more appropriate set of traits and slot layout as Daichi suggests, but you are not willing to do that because. Another failure on your part. And, again, this is a sign of a serious balance issue if only a very small number of ships can even get fights at all. The fact that a small number of ships can, with specific fits, have enough points to catch stabbed farmers (usually at the expensive of being able to engage anything else) does not negate the fact that most ships/fits can't do it.
the point is FW <> WCS.
If you want to limit WCS in FW space... sure. Have the plex scram everyone within range to trigger the plex with 10 points of scram or drop a bubble around it or something. Maybe just disable WCS in a plex.
But the module itself serves a purpose in other places (hauling/travel for example).
Getting rid of the module because it causes an issue in ONE part of eve is a silly solution. Just fix that one part of space to solve the issue.
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Maria Dragoon
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
138
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Posted - 2017.04.20 16:26:06 -
[51] - Quote
I'm sorry, but I don't support ******* over a crap ton of different sub-cap haulers because you can't bring a friend or two to kill one guy that fitted himself to avoid solo-gankers.
Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius
"A man who talks to people who aren't real is crazy. A man who talks to people who aren't real and writes down what they say is an author."
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Elenahina
agony unleashed Agony Empire
1688
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Posted - 2017.04.20 16:54:28 -
[52] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:[ Quote:Implying that anyone currently fitting WCS in a FW Plex is ever going to provide anything other than a one-sided fight... Maybe they will if they're forced to learn, instead of being coddled with an auto-escape option that allows them to avoid learning how to win a fight.
See, I think this is where your initial premise is flawed. Your assumption is that their definition of "winning" is the same as yours. They don't care about the fights. They care about the ISK. Take away their WCS and they'll just move on to some other activity that nets them an equitable risk to income ratio.
What they won't do is suddenly start shooting back. That I can pretty much promise you.
Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you.
Also, iderno
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Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
502
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Posted - 2017.04.20 18:29:30 -
[53] - Quote
I believe the ship you're looking for is the Navy Maulus.
A signature :o
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3319
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Posted - 2017.04.20 18:34:01 -
[54] - Quote
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:I believe the ship you're looking for is the Navy Maulus.
Been suggested. People ignored it... |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
330
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Posted - 2017.04.20 18:37:12 -
[55] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Shallanna Yassavi wrote:I believe the ship you're looking for is the Navy Maulus. Been suggested. People ignored it...
Because a single ship being able to solve the problem does not mean that no balance problem exists. Focusing on this one particular ship is an implicit concession that there is a major balance problem making everything else useless. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
330
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Posted - 2017.04.20 18:43:13 -
[56] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:The issue though lies with FW and not w/ stabs. Changing stabs would change the whole game. The point (from some of us) is leave stabs as is and fix the thing that's really broken.
It's a problem for more than FW, the stabbed FW farmers are just the most obvious instance of the problem. It's also a problem with relic/data sites, where filling your lows with WCS is also turning off PvP without suffering any penalties for it. And the "encouraging bad fits" problem exists any time people take WCS into PvP. Removing WCS, or at least nerfing them to be impossible to use on anything but a travel fit, would be good for the game as a whole.
Quote:Does a FW beacon bubble and web tower seem like a reasonable fix to you?
The bubble part would fix this one particular problem, but leave the rest untouched. WCS would still be a problem, but at least the primary abusers would be nerfed. But the webbing would be pointless and bad for balance, even if it applies to all ships equally you've still got problems like low-tracking guns suddenly dealing way more damage.
IMO the better solution might be to simply have any ship with WCS fitted not count towards capturing the site.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3319
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Posted - 2017.04.20 18:46:57 -
[57] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Shallanna Yassavi wrote:I believe the ship you're looking for is the Navy Maulus. Been suggested. People ignored it... Because a single ship being able to solve the problem does not mean that no balance problem exists. Focusing on this one particular ship is an implicit concession that there is a major balance problem making everything else useless.
It's not even a problem it's just a bunch of people being ass-blasted they can't kill a half-afk farmer who pretty much nullified his ship combat capabilities so he can escape some engagements. The tools to counter his fits are there but you willingly refuse to use them. You deserve to have him escape from you and collect your salt all the way to his next PLEX where he will still escape you. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3319
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Posted - 2017.04.20 18:49:52 -
[58] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote: The bubble part would fix this one particular problem, but leave the rest untouched.
This here prove that you do not even understand what is going on. A bubble on the beacon will change nothing except which ship will be used to do the farming. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
93
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 19:02:24 -
[59] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Merin Ryskin wrote: The bubble part would fix this one particular problem, but leave the rest untouched.
This here prove that you do not even understand what is going on. A bubble on the beacon will change nothing except which ship will be used to do the farming.
Maybe... but it makes it more expensive.
You have to train your farming toon to be able to fly interceptors. Racial frig V, Evasive Maneuvering V, Interceptor I. The ship it self costs more as well... so the "asleep at the wheel" moments when you can kill a farmer would cost them more.
An alternative would be to have the plex scram everyone in range with 10 points. Or just have WCS not work inside a plex.
The issue isn't the module... it's not even that it makes it so farmers can escape. It's simply that it makes it too easy for them to escape. You don't have to make it impossible to fix the problem... just more difficult. All of those options do just that. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
93
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Posted - 2017.04.20 19:12:48 -
[60] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:The issue though lies with FW and not w/ stabs. Changing stabs would change the whole game. The point (from some of us) is leave stabs as is and fix the thing that's really broken. It's a problem for more than FW, the stabbed FW farmers are just the most obvious instance of the problem. It's also a problem with relic/data sites, where filling your lows with WCS is also turning off PvP without suffering any penalties for it. And the "encouraging bad fits" problem exists any time people take WCS into PvP. Removing WCS, or at least nerfing them to be impossible to use on anything but a travel fit, would be good for the game as a whole.
I'm not sure I see the problem with it in exploration fits. Cargo space and nano's both help with exploration fits (especially in null) so there is a tradeoff in what you use for lows. You also aren't entering a factional warfare complex... and while PvP CAN happen anywhere, preparing by fitting your ship for escape is also allowed.
One side trying to escape before the other can kill them is still pvp. If you take out WCS, it's literally impossible for non-combat ships to escape once disrupted/scrammed. That is simply not how eve works. There's always a counter. |
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