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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
319
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Posted - 2017.04.18 09:48:24 -
[1] - Quote
Hunting FW players and realizing how many of them are pathetic stabbed plex farmers has highlighted a point I've believed for a long time: warp core stabilizers need to be removed from the game. They have two major problems, issues that are inherent to the concept of the module and can not be fixed with a mere balance pass:
1) They create negative play experiences. It's incredibly frustrating to do everything right, especially in a situation where you're hunting an unwilling target that has every advantage in trying to escape (local, d-scan, etc) if they're paying attention at all, only to watch your target warp out because they had their low slots full of WCS. Did they win the fight? No. Did they earn an escape by getting out of range/neuting my point off/etc? No. They just fit their ship so that it's impossible to tackle for a solo player (unless they're flying a HIC). So you end up wasting time trying to get to a fight when you were doomed to failure the whole time.
2) They reward terrible play. Fitting WCS means admitting that you are never going to win a fight. In addition to the penalties from the WCS itself you've wasted low slots on them instead of using those slots on modules that will help you win. And they only help you when you've already screwed up by failing to use local/d-scan/etc to be aware of a potential threat and set up your escape. So you have the textbook situation for a Darwin award in EVE: a fail-fit ship flown by a careless player. But because they've fitted the magic "get out of jail free" module they get to escape with their ship intact. Incompetence is not punished, and the player learns that continued incompetence is acceptable. They're never forced to learn to win in PvP, or to use the available tools to escape before a warp disruptor is activated against them. They just mindlessly orbit the FW beacon and warp out if anything tackles them. This is a problem.
At the very minimum WCS should have crippling penalties such that they are only ever useful for travel fits, and can never be used while engaged in any kind of PvP or PvE. No offensive modules (including analyzers, mining lasers, etc) can be activated, and a ship with WCS fitted should not count towards any FW control beacons or similar "have a ship present" effects. If you want to do anything but get from point A to point B you should not be able to fit WCS. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
319
|
Posted - 2017.04.18 09:54:31 -
[2] - Quote
And no, "just bring more ships" is not a solution to WCS. In many of these cases we're talking about weak targets like T1 frigates, where it can be a fun 1v1 fight but bringing 2-3 (or more!) people to ensure tackle makes it a boring execution instead of a fight. And that's on top of the difficulty of coordinating multiple ships to get tackle before the target warps, having more people in local to scare them off, etc. If you can't get these fights solo then there's no point in wasting time on them.
Nor is "fit multiple points" a solution. Very few ships have enough mid slots to fit sufficient points to deal with 3+ WCS, especially if you don't want to cripple the ship in every other way. You pretty much have to use expensive faction scrams to have a realistic fit, and a 50-100 million ISK module should not be required for T1 frigate vs. T1 frigate fights. |
Alessienne Ellecon
Solitude Rangers
95
|
Posted - 2017.04.18 11:14:07 -
[3] - Quote
You're one of those bloodthirsty twits who thinks everyone should be forced to fight, aren't you?
WCS is meant to help haulers WHO WANT PEOPLE LIKE YOU TO LEAVE THEM ALONE. All Johnny Carebear wants to do is take his stuff from Point A to Point B. He's not interested in fighting anyone, he just wants to get where he's going and drop off his cargo. WCS allows him to do that without your interference.
Stop crying about stabs and go do some real PvP instead of preying on haulers, you scumbag. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3954
|
Posted - 2017.04.18 11:44:31 -
[4] - Quote
If you are going to remove stabs, you need to replace them with something to allow withdrawing from a fight.
A slow spool up of warp core strength that every ship can do without using modules would be an option though, as that would force everyone to commit to a fight initially, but mean that if you can't kill them in a reasonable time they can still escape. Probably with no weapon timer allowed for the spool up meaning you are on the defensive only. Or at least reduced DPS/Ewar/etc when it is spooling up, so you don't just start it going as soon as you fight to always be able to escape. (For reasonable time I'm imagining a spool up something like 1 point per (Minute * ship size), where frigs are 1, dest 2 cruiser 3 etc. So to escape a single T1 scram would take 4 minutes for a frigate if they fired guns, or 3 minutes if they started trying to escape instantly)
@Alessienne Ellecon, WCS mainly don't help haulers since there are almost no haulers that can make effective use of them, really only DST. Since the others all are sacrificing significant cargo space for them, and all the T1 haulers are vulnerable to instant alpha also if they are carrying enough to interest gankers, so...... sorry but your argument isn't a very good one for WCS remaining. I may have argued a lot for changes to industrials in some ways, but this isn't really going to impact on haulers. |
Kelly Riley
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Badfellas Inc.
3
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Posted - 2017.04.18 11:56:47 -
[5] - Quote
FW needs a rework to be more combat focused |
Caleb Seremshur
Black Scorpions Inc Circle-Of-Two
869
|
Posted - 2017.04.18 13:02:54 -
[6] - Quote
Kelly Riley wrote:FW needs a rework to be more combat focused
Sure. When they fix FW targets docking in hostile space. And lots of other insipidly stupid issues. Make lowsec worth living/mining/missioning/etc in. Aside from FW missions and L5's there's too much risk for low benefit. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
90
|
Posted - 2017.04.18 13:12:17 -
[7] - Quote
There is no real argument for removing WCS.
If there is a mod for preventing warp, there needs to be one that blocks that. That's how the rock/paper/scissors of eve works.
There might be an argument for blocking WCS from FW complexes. I'd actually like every complex to be bubbled (with the edge of the bubble extending say... 10km past the maximum distance you can be from the complex center to still trigger the count down).
I'm for forced action in FW complexes... because that's what FW is about. You should be ready for PvP when you warp in to a plex. But WCS in general are fine. |
perseus skye
Republic University Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2017.04.18 13:29:11 -
[8] - Quote
wcs are fine as they are ,eve is about choices and fitting Your ship differently or badly is totally what eve is about as everyone should be allowed to play and fit up a ship however they want
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2554
|
Posted - 2017.04.18 13:35:38 -
[9] - Quote
WCS are a pro module that when used correctly do many marvelous things. Their primary purpose (my opinion) is to generate salty tears from guys w/out enough points fitted to their ships. If these stabbed ships upset you enough you will come up with a fit to counter them. Look into the faction scrams (3 points of scram) and things like that. I'm not saying it will be easy.
There has been quite a bit of reference over time of the negative impact that wcs are having on FW pvp. I get that. TBH it only makes sense that if you sign up for faction WARFARE you are signing up to do pvp - I get that too. I'm not solid on the mechanics with the FW sites, but I do understand that ship size limits are important to prevent one sided camping and that this makes wcs more powerful as ship size goes down.
It seems some form of adjustment to the game is needed, but I don't feel removing wcs from the game is the answer. It is such a broad stroke for shut a narrow issue. If all ships were using wcs all over Eve were avoiding pvp, then sure wonk them. The problem though is very narrowly focused, so I think a more focused fix would be in order. I don't know what that fix is (again, not a FW expert), but removing wcs isn't it.
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
1223
|
Posted - 2017.04.18 14:42:11 -
[10] - Quote
OP let me keep my response short and sweet, I can elaborate later if needed.
You have failed in every way that it is possible for you to fail in a situation where you should have had the upper hand. As a result of your complete and total failure your targets routinely get away. Yet despite your complete and total failures you believe it is unfair that these players get away, and so in typical fashion you demand that CCP change the game so that what is currently your failures will become your wins.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3304
|
Posted - 2017.04.18 14:50:34 -
[11] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:And no, "just bring more ships" is not a solution to WCS. In many of these cases we're talking about weak targets like T1 frigates, where it can be a fun 1v1 fight but bringing 2-3 (or more!) people to ensure tackle makes it a boring execution instead of a fight. And that's on top of the difficulty of coordinating multiple ships to get tackle before the target warps, having more people in local to scare them off, etc. If you can't get these fights solo then there's no point in wasting time on them.
Nor is "fit multiple points" a solution. Very few ships have enough mid slots to fit sufficient points to deal with 3+ WCS, especially if you don't want to cripple the ship in every other way. You pretty much have to use expensive faction scrams to have a realistic fit, and a 50-100 million ISK module should not be required for T1 frigate vs. T1 frigate fights.
If you are not willing to fit or form up to catch your target, I wish your target also spam fofofofofo in local after escaping because you deserve it. |
TheFourteenthTry
Unicorn Balls
15
|
Posted - 2017.04.18 17:02:34 -
[12] - Quote
no. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6409
|
Posted - 2017.04.18 18:39:32 -
[13] - Quote
Alessienne Ellecon wrote:You're one of those bloodthirsty twits who thinks everyone should be forced to fight, aren't you?
WCS is meant to help haulers WHO WANT PEOPLE LIKE YOU TO LEAVE THEM ALONE. All Johnny Carebear wants to do is take his stuff from Point A to Point B. He's not interested in fighting anyone, he just wants to get where he's going and drop off his cargo. WCS allows him to do that without your interference.
Stop crying about stabs and go do some real PvP instead of preying on haulers, you scumbag.
Nobody in game should be exempt from any type of player-on-player interaction. So, yeah if Johnny Carebear is carrying stuff from point A to point B and somebody wants to shoot them...that should be allowed. Conversely Johnny is also allowed to try and evade, shoot back, etc.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
319
|
Posted - 2017.04.18 19:44:42 -
[14] - Quote
Alessienne Ellecon wrote:You're one of those bloodthirsty twits who thinks everyone should be forced to fight, aren't you?
WCS is meant to help haulers WHO WANT PEOPLE LIKE YOU TO LEAVE THEM ALONE. All Johnny Carebear wants to do is take his stuff from Point A to Point B. He's not interested in fighting anyone, he just wants to get where he's going and drop off his cargo. WCS allows him to do that without your interference.
Stop crying about stabs and go do some real PvP instead of preying on haulers, you scumbag.
Apparently you didn't read beyond the title, because I'm primarily talking about combat ships, not haulers. I don't love WCS on haulers (it favors mindless autopiloting over careful use of scouts/the map/etc), but it's not something I care very strongly about. If WCS are nerfed so that only haulers can fit them I'll be ok with that.
Nevyn Auscent wrote:If you are going to remove stabs, you need to replace them with something to allow withdrawing from a fight.
There are plenty of things that allow withdrawing from a fight: ECM, neuts, having a faster ship and burning out of tackle range, etc. The problem with WCS is that they make all of these things redundant. You don't need to have a superior plan to win the ability to disengage, you just press "warp" and warp out because no single ship can tackle you.
And the problem with the "spooling up" idea is that it encourages blobbing. If the timer is short enough that it is relevant in a realistic fight then the answer is to bring more ships and kill the target before they can build enough strength to warp out. That gets you the kill, sure, but it makes the resulting execution much less interesting than a 1v1 fight.
Serendipity Lost wrote:Their primary purpose (my opinion) is to generate salty tears from guys w/out enough points fitted to their ships.
How exactly is a T1 frigate supposed to fit 3-4+ points of scram strength? Am I supposed to leave off the AB/MWD and fit nothing but scrams in my minds?
Quote:Look into the faction scrams (3 points of scram) and things like that.
I already addressed that idea. A 50-100 million ISK faction module should not be mandatory equipment for a 1v1 fight between T1 frigates.
Donnachadh wrote:You have failed in every way that it is possible for you to fail in a situation where you should have had the upper hand.
Lolwut. Do you know anything about FW PvP? The target has every advantage in this situation, not the hunter. If they're spamming d-scan with a short radius they'll have plenty of advance warning of any ship warping to their site and can align out. Then if the potential threat enters the site they immediately warp out before the hunter can finish exiting warp. And even if they miss the hunter on d-scan if they're smart they're going to move away from the warp-in point so that they still have time to align out and warp even if they don't start trying until after the hunter appears on their overview.
Now, I have no problem with that part of the situation. A target escaping because of superior situational awareness is fine. My problem is that WCS eliminates the need to pay attention to any of those things. You don't need to spam d-scan or even pay attention to the overview. You can just sit on the warp-in beacon at 0km and press "warp" as soon as you hear the scram notification, and because you have lows full of WCS you're guaranteed to escape. |
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
422
|
Posted - 2017.04.18 19:44:56 -
[15] - Quote
op should be glade they were even nerfed
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3878
|
Posted - 2017.04.18 20:09:29 -
[16] - Quote
If you think they are stabbed bring a heron with +3 scrams lol.
But really, fw mechanic's are about capturing the sites more than the farmers. When he runs away, you win. If you really want a kill then put those extra scrams on. Theres also a faction frig that gets extra scram str and can get into novice sites.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6409
|
Posted - 2017.04.18 20:30:43 -
[17] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Donnachadh wrote:You have failed in every way that it is possible for you to fail in a situation where you should have had the upper hand. Lolwut. Do you know anything about FW PvP? The target has every advantage in this situation, not the hunter. If they're spamming d-scan with a short radius they'll have plenty of advance warning of any ship warping to their site and can align out. Then if the potential threat enters the site they immediately warp out before the hunter can finish exiting warp. And even if they miss the hunter on d-scan if they're smart they're going to move away from the warp-in point so that they still have time to align out and warp even if they don't start trying until after the hunter appears on their overview. Now, I have no problem with that part of the situation. A target escaping because of superior situational awareness is fine. My problem is that WCS eliminates the need to pay attention to any of those things. You don't need to spam d-scan or even pay attention to the overview. You can just sit on the warp-in beacon at 0km and press "warp" as soon as you hear the scram notification, and because you have lows full of WCS you're guaranteed to escape.
Maybe make it so FW players cannot fit stabs on their non-hauler ships and restrict haulers so they cannot be used in these sites.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2560
|
Posted - 2017.04.18 20:35:02 -
[18] - Quote
Personally I would prefer that the landing beacon double as a webbing tower and T2 large warp disruption bubble. It's easily doable and would work wonders to enhance player to player interactions. Not just FW beacons, but all non HS beacons (I'd be OK w/ HS beacons too, but would only go for that once everyone agrees how wonderfully they are performing in the non HS regions of space). These beacon scrams would be so awesome that they would over ride any nullification and MJD technology (inty/T3 I'm looking at you).
This would promote commitment from site runners and also encourage players to get to know one another better through close interaction.
You could also start by just putting this new feature on FW and SOV null beacons. My reasoning being that the W in FW means you're signing up to fight in a war and SOV null by definition means you're a tough mofo that can police his own territory. This seems plain dumb obvious.
That would fix a lot of this. Only a risk averse crybaby would oppose this universal solution.
Faction WARFARE = combat SOV NULL = able to police ones own space
Let's get this done! |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6410
|
Posted - 2017.04.18 20:37:28 -
[19] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Personally I would prefer that the landing beacon double as a webbing tower and T2 large warp disruption bubble. It's easily doable and would work wonders to enhance player to player interactions. Not just FW beacons, but all non HS beacons (I'd be OK w/ HS beacons too, but would only go for that once everyone agrees how wonderfully they are performing in the non HS regions of space). These beacon scrams would be so awesome that they would over ride any nullification and MJD technology (inty/T3 I'm looking at you).
This would promote commitment from site runners and also encourage players to get to know one another better through close interaction.
You could also start by just putting this new feature on FW and SOV null beacons. My reasoning being that the W in FW means you're signing up to fight in a war and SOV null by definition means you're a tough mofo that can police his own territory. This seems plain dumb obvious.
That would fix a lot of this. Only a risk averse crybaby would oppose this universal solution.
Faction WARFARE = combat SOV NULL = able to police ones own space
Let's get this done!
I like that even better.
Edit: Well, except maybe the webbing part...unless it can be disabled by say shooting it or something.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2560
|
Posted - 2017.04.18 20:52:56 -
[20] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Personally I would prefer that the landing beacon double as a webbing tower and T2 large warp disruption bubble. It's easily doable and would work wonders to enhance player to player interactions. Not just FW beacons, but all non HS beacons (I'd be OK w/ HS beacons too, but would only go for that once everyone agrees how wonderfully they are performing in the non HS regions of space). These beacon scrams would be so awesome that they would over ride any nullification and MJD technology (inty/T3 I'm looking at you).
This would promote commitment from site runners and also encourage players to get to know one another better through close interaction.
You could also start by just putting this new feature on FW and SOV null beacons. My reasoning being that the W in FW means you're signing up to fight in a war and SOV null by definition means you're a tough mofo that can police his own territory. This seems plain dumb obvious.
That would fix a lot of this. Only a risk averse crybaby would oppose this universal solution.
Faction WARFARE = combat SOV NULL = able to police ones own space
Let's get this done! I like that even better. Edit: Well, except maybe the webbing part...unless it can be disabled by say shooting it or something.
I added the webbing to help older players become acquainted with the newer breed of players that like to go fast and kite everything. It would still be possible, just not until you get out of the bubble. My thought being that really careful player could land on the beacon and run out to a kiting distance, it would just allow some time for the friendlier players to stop by and say hello.
I got this idea from the surveillance beacons. Players deploying them come in 2 flavors. The vanilla players that will let you warp in and take their surveillance loots and the Rootin tootin raspberry players that stop by and say hello and even lend some assistance when you go for their goodies. (Not to derail this great idea w/ another, but these surveillance thingerdoodles should not be deployable w/in 100km of anything. Some guys are dropping them on anoms by mistake and ruining a lot of interaction opportunities) |
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
319
|
Posted - 2017.04.18 21:40:38 -
[21] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:But really, fw mechanic's are about capturing the sites more than the farmers. When he runs away, you win.
Only if I'm enemy FW. If I'm a pirate trying to kill everyone equally then a missed fight is a complete failure. And even as enemy FW capturing the site is much less satisfying than capturing the site AND killing the ship attacking it. The beacons are a means to get PvP fights, not an objective that is interesting for its own sake.
Quote:If you really want a kill then put those extra scrams on. Theres also a faction frig that gets extra scram str and can get into novice sites.
Again, not possible with a realistic fit. You aren't going to counter a full rack of WCS with any ship that isn't an automatic lossmail against everything but stabbed farmers. And the existence of a single faction frigate which mitigates the problem is not an overall solution. I shouldn't be limited to a single ship choice to get fights. |
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
472
|
Posted - 2017.04.18 22:18:32 -
[22] - Quote
Make WCS active modules.
Give them some sort of spool-up or preparation mechanic - either a warm-up timer like MJDs, or make the align speed higher to make them stay on grid longer. The point is to make them stay on grid for a little while unless they're paying attention and can pre-empt your tackle (of course in this case they should just bloody warp out).
Make them suck 100GJ per activation. 100GJ is nothing for a hauler, but a lot for a plex frigate.
You could even give spool-up bonuses to industrials to lessen the inconvenience of the change.
This also opens up lots of balancing options for the meta-modules. The difference in penalties between Meta 0 to Meta 5 are trivial. An enduring or a restrained WCS would be a meaningful choice here. |
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3879
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 00:44:11 -
[23] - Quote
Get fights...what fights are you missing out on? When they are warp stabbed up the arse are you really going to complain about missing out on a fight where they couldn't fight back anyway?
And if they can't use wcs do you think they are going to be easier to catch? Or do you think it's more likely they are going to leave fw all together and find a different way to make isk?
I doubt removing wcs will get you more fights. Might just make the place a whole lot quieter.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross Sev3rance
275
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 00:50:15 -
[24] - Quote
Just fit dual scram bro. Git gud. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
320
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Posted - 2017.04.19 03:38:51 -
[25] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Get fights...what fights are you missing out on? When they are warp stabbed up the arse are you really going to complain about missing out on a fight where they couldn't fight back anyway?
They could fight back if they didn't waste valuable slots on WCS. And by removing their "get out of jail free" card they'll be forced to learn how to fight back if they want to accomplish anything.
Quote:And if they can't use wcs do you think they are going to be easier to catch? Or do you think it's more likely they are going to leave fw all together and find a different way to make isk?
If they leave FW entirely and go back to highsec then at least incompetence and failure have been properly punished, and nobody has to waste time trying to engage someone that can't be caught. FW should be primarily about PvP, with the ISK being an incentive to do the PvP, not an opportunity for lazy minimal-risk ISK farming.
Rawketsled wrote:MGive them some sort of spool-up or preparation mechanic - either a warm-up timer like MJDs, or make the align speed higher to make them stay on grid longer. The point is to make them stay on grid for a little while unless they're paying attention and can pre-empt your tackle (of course in this case they should just bloody warp out).
The problem, again, is that things like this encourage blobbing. If you know you only have a fixed time before the WCS activates and breaks your point then you have to bring more dps to kill your target before they can escape. That gets you the kill, but makes the fight much less entertaining because it's so one-sided. |
Cade Windstalker
1379
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Posted - 2017.04.19 03:54:15 -
[26] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:They could fight back if they didn't waste valuable slots on WCS. And by removing their "get out of jail free" card they'll be forced to learn how to fight back if they want to accomplish anything.
More likely they'll find another way to avoid engaging, which you will come on here and complain about the existence of.
Any source of ISK that can be exploited in the game will be, any source of ISK that can't be exploited will be ignored. All ISK-farming is always minimal risk, because the alternative isn't profitable.
Merin Ryskin wrote:The problem, again, is that things like this encourage blobbing. If you know you only have a fixed time before the WCS activates and breaks your point then you have to bring more dps to kill your target before they can escape. That gets you the kill, but makes the fight much less entertaining because it's so one-sided.
Implying that anyone currently fitting WCS in a FW Plex is ever going to provide anything other than a one-sided fight...
There was actually a brief question about Warp Core Stabs at, I believe, the Game Design panel. The answer was essentially that CCP want options for players to control whether or not they engage in a fight. That pretty clearly puts the likelihood of them outright removing something like this at basically nil.
Like, if you just want to vent then fine, but I wish you'd put the thread in a better place for circle-jerky trolling, because down here it's just wasting pixels. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
320
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 04:04:31 -
[27] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:More likely they'll find another way to avoid engaging, which you will come on here and complain about the existence of.
Nope. The way to avoid engaging is situational awareness, and I've explicitly said that I have no problem with people carefully watching for a threat and escaping before I can catch them. The issue here is entirely with lazy and incompetent players who ignore the need to watch for potential threats, because they know they have enough WCS to just warp out if anyone tries to attack them.
Quote:Any source of ISK that can be exploited in the game will be, any source of ISK that can't be exploited will be ignored. All ISK-farming is always minimal risk, because the alternative isn't profitable.
Speak for yourself. I do plenty of ISK farming in 0.0 with a risk of being caught, because I know how to minimize those risks and keep a net positive ISK/hour.
Quote:Implying that anyone currently fitting WCS in a FW Plex is ever going to provide anything other than a one-sided fight...
Maybe they will if they're forced to learn, instead of being coddled with an auto-escape option that allows them to avoid learning how to win a fight.
Quote:There was actually a brief question about Warp Core Stabs at, I believe, the Game Design panel. The answer was essentially that CCP want options for players to control whether or not they engage in a fight. That pretty clearly puts the likelihood of them outright removing something like this at basically nil.
That's unfortunate, because whoever said that is pretty clueless on game design. There are plenty of options for controlling whether or not you engage in a fight: situational awareness, ECM/neuts/etc to remove points, fast align times to get out before you can be tackled, fast ships that can burn out of tackle range and warp off, staying off the warp-in point so you have time to escape before tackle can close in and catch you, etc. All of these are far more interesting than declaring that you will never be caught by a solo player and filling your lows with WCS. |
Alessienne Ellecon
Solitude Rangers
99
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 07:40:35 -
[28] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:If you are going to remove stabs, you need to replace them with something to allow withdrawing from a fight.
@Alessienne Ellecon, WCS mainly don't help haulers since there are almost no haulers that can make effective use of them, really only DST. Since the others all are sacrificing significant cargo space for them, and all the T1 haulers are vulnerable to instant alpha also if they are carrying enough to interest gankers, so...... sorry but your argument isn't a very good one for WCS remaining. I may have argued a lot for changes to industrials in some ways, but this isn't really going to impact on haulers.
That's what shields and hardeners are for. I fit shield extenders and invuln to my hauler mids and let those soak up alpha from gatecamps while the warp drive spools up. One of the biggest problems with minmax theorycrafting in EVE is the utter lack of creativity and flexibility. Most people aren't willing to experiment with unusual fittings, and the few who are are often relentlessly mocked.
@OP, Your thread is demanding that WCS be removed. You said nothing about the effect it would have on haulers, you just whined about how your targets kept getting away and oh what a tragedy it was because you want your targets to stay the hell still while you beat on them. Gods forbid you actually try a different tactic, ship or fitting. People say carebears like to whine, but look at you! You're doing the same thing! WAH WAH I'M TOO LAZY TO GIT GUD CCPLZ NERF THIS THING
git gud
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Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
329
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 08:43:59 -
[29] - Quote
AAaaannnndddd there is the problem.
Pirate, not Militia, entering Plex sites.......
You know what, I could agree with you maybe.....
If first anybody not Militia entering one of these complex sites automatically becomes suspect (flashy yellow) the moment you hit the "use the acceleration" button on your UI.
Because without that, if someone cares about their Standings....they have to wait for you to shoot first, and as a non-military pilot or such, you have no legal business being in one of those sights.
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Alderson Point
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
56
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 12:12:30 -
[30] - Quote
If the cat cannot catch the mouse, then the cat should get better.
It is a pretty poor cat that demands it's prey is nailed to the floor.
|
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Althalus Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
112
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 12:38:53 -
[31] - Quote
WCS shouldn't be removed but there must be 'real' drawbacks using them, such as align speed or whatever (because target speed / rage or whatever it is i don't remember... sure lol).
On the other hand, in some cases it'd be good if they were "disabled" in some situation (most likely, FW combat sites)
The goal is not to remove them, but have people making the choice of "WCS over something as useful" (let's say, agility or speed for example, which works sometime better than WCS) :)
EsiPy - Python 2.7 / 3.3+ Swagger Client based on pyswagger for ESI
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
90
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 13:19:32 -
[32] - Quote
This strikes me as bad an idea as the reverse... asking CCP to remove scrams/disruptors.
It's rock/paper/scissors. In order to catch someone who's stabbed out... you have to scram out your fit. If you don't, they can escape. But scramming out your fit means you have less of something else that puts you at a disadvantage when you run into a plexer who wants to fight.
Every measure has a counter-measure. That's how it is supposed to work. Just because you don't want to employ more scrams than he has stabs because it nerfs your pvp fit is really your problem... not his. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
1225
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 13:29:29 -
[33] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Lolwut. Do you know anything about FW PvP? The target has every advantage in this situation, not the hunter. If they're spamming d-scan with a short radius they'll have plenty of advance warning of any ship warping to their site and can align out. Then if the potential threat enters the site they immediately warp out before the hunter can finish exiting warp. And even if they miss the hunter on d-scan if they're smart they're going to move away from the warp-in point so that they still have time to align out and warp even if they don't start trying until after the hunter appears on their overview. Yes I have had characters in FW in years past, and yes I know what it takes to hunt them down I have a scan character that does that every day so others can kill them.
I also know that the max you can get with WCS mods on a T1 Frigate is 1 point per slot. I also know that using the T2 scrambler YOU can get 2 points per slot. Yes I know WCS are low and scamble are mids. All this means that you can fit twice as many points in scramble per slot as they can fit stabilization. With all of this and chosing the proper ship for the job at hand you will ALWAYS be able to fit more points than they can.
So let's review these T1 frigate against T1 frigate problems you are having.
1. With proper ship choice you can always fit more points in scramble than they have in stabilization yet your targets get away. Failure on your part.
2. They are willing to sacrifice fits slots they would rather have for other things in order to fit those WCS, you are not willing to trade off something you want for the ability to tackle and hold them in place. Failure on your part.
3. You want CCP to change the game instead of adapting to the situations you face. Failure number 3.
Merin Ryskin wrote:You aren't going to counter a full rack of WCS with any ship that isn't an automatic lossmail against everything but stabbed farmers. And the existence of a single faction frigate which mitigates the problem is not an overall solution. I shouldn't be limited to a single ship choice to get fights. I should not be limited to 1 single battleship that has drones as a primary weapons system AND gets bonuses to missiles, yet there is only 1 ship in the game that has that combination, like me if you want to fill a specific set of requirements there is often just one single ship in the game that can fill those requirements. asking for CCP to change the game instead of using the proper ship is just another in your long line of failures.
EvE is about choices and the consequences that go along with those choices, the FW farmers are making choices and willing to suffer the consequences that may come as a result of those choices, yet you are not, and yes you do have choices. You could use a ship with a more appropriate set of traits and slot layout as Daichi suggests, but you are not willing to do that because. Another failure on your part.
You could fly what ever ship you want and sacrifice your fit so you can tackle and kill the farmers and take your chances with all the others you may come across, again you are not willing to do that because. Yet another failure on your part.
Perhaps your ultimate failure comes when comparing you to the carebear highsec miners because you have exactly the same attitude they do. They do not want to sacrifice in their fit for max yield so they can have a tank to prevent death by ganking so they want CCP to change the game to suit their wants. You are not willing to make sacrifices in your fit or fly the proper ship so you want CCP to change the game. So I give you the same advice everyone around here gives those carebear miners, you have to choose, tackle and kill the farmers but face death by other pirates because. Or fit to go toe to toe with the other pirates and watch the farmers warp away. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2564
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 13:34:26 -
[34] - Quote
Max Deveron wrote:AAaaannnndddd there is the problem.
Pirate, not Militia, entering Plex sites.......
You know what, I could agree with you maybe.....
If first anybody not Militia entering one of these complex sites automatically becomes suspect (flashy yellow) the moment you hit the "use the acceleration" button on your UI.
Because without that, if someone cares about their Standings....they have to wait for you to shoot first, and as a non-military pilot or such, you have no legal business being in one of those sights.
I guess that is in the fine print on the FW application? FW is for FW pilots only? No 3rd party intervention should be allowed?
AAaaaaaannnnnddddd there is the problem.
You don't understand why FW is in LS. You think FW sites deserve to be farmed free of any interference. FW is for militias in LS to conquer and control those LS systems and get benefits from them. FW is not a farming scheme where players have characters on both sides of the overlying conflict and manipulate faction control of LS for max profits....... OK, well it isn't supposed to be.
You're ignoring the original design of the FW feature and trying to make it more risk averse and farmer friendly. You desire FW without the pvp part. There is a computer game known as Farmville that has all the features you desire and none of this bothersome 3rd party interference.
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Cade Windstalker
1388
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 13:46:07 -
[35] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Nope. The way to avoid engaging is situational awareness, and I've explicitly said that I have no problem with people carefully watching for a threat and escaping before I can catch them. The issue here is entirely with lazy and incompetent players who ignore the need to watch for potential threats, because they know they have enough WCS to just warp out if anyone tries to attack them.
If it won't be you then it'll be someone else complaining about insta-warps or ECM or...
If you really wanted to catch these guys you could fit up a triple-scram setup or something and give the really inattentive ones a nasty surprise. The reason no one does this is because they don't like the trade-off they have to make.
Merin Ryskin wrote:Speak for yourself. I do plenty of ISK farming in 0.0 with a risk of being caught, because I know how to minimize those risks and keep a net positive ISK/hour.
Thank you for providing more support for my argument? That is, in point of fact, a source of ISK being exploited. We've seen this over and over with things in Eve. If something can't be done profitably with any consistency it won't be done, at least not by any population of players large enough to justify investment in the feature.
Merin Ryskin wrote:Maybe they will if they're forced to learn, instead of being coddled with an auto-escape option that allows them to avoid learning how to win a fight.
I highly highly doubt that, they'll just swap from WCS to full nano/inertial stab fits and continue to attempt to run away, because what they're after is ISK not a fight. Believe it or not the vast majority of *anyone* farming FW plexes out in low probably knows how to play the game, they're just out there to make ISK and have determined that running cheap stab fits and fleeing when challenges is more profitable.
Merin Ryskin wrote:That's unfortunate, because whoever said that is pretty clueless on game design. There are plenty of options for controlling whether or not you engage in a fight: situational awareness, ECM/neuts/etc to remove points, fast align times to get out before you can be tackled, fast ships that can burn out of tackle range and warp off, staying off the warp-in point so you have time to escape before tackle can close in and catch you, etc. All of these are far more interesting than declaring that you will never be caught by a solo player and filling your lows with WCS.
Situational awareness only gets you so far, ECM and neuts don't work on a large variety of ships and ECM specifically is ineffective without a bonused ship, align time is the worst tank above insta-warp, the list of arguments against your arguments goes on.
What was said at the panel was perfectly good game design from the view of Eve as a whole, as opposed to someone focused just on FW plexes. It didn't rule out tweaking the bonuses and penalties for WCS but I don't see CCP ever completely removing them. That's an unrealistic expectation. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
1225
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 14:49:04 -
[36] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:They could fight back if they didn't waste valuable slots on WCS. And by removing their "get out of jail free" card they'll be forced to learn how to fight back if they want to accomplish anything. Wanted to deal with this and one other in a separate post. You are missing the most important aspect of this whole thing.
THEY DO NOT WANT TO FIGHT.
Fights do not win FW capturing complexes does. Fights do not make LP / ISK capturing complexes does. And so fights with other players enemy faction or non-aligned pirates like you is to be avoided whenever possible. To put this another way if you want fights in your FW experience then you need to FORCE the other players you come into contact with into those fights.
Setting this and all of my previous posts aside you still miss one essential element. To those carebears or eFW farmers that do not want to fight stabing to hell and back so we can get away from you IS A WIN for us in the only game we care about and that is not having to fight YOU. And when we are able to do this tears that flood the EvE universe and forums like this from people like you are only more frosting on an already sweet piece of cake.
Althalus Stenory wrote:The goal is not to remove them, but have people making the choice of "WCS over something as useful" (let's say, agility or speed for example, which works sometime better than WCS) :) What useless non-sense is this. Fitting WCS already has some serious drawbacks as in they use a mid slot. Resistance mods, damage mods, damage application mods, propulsion mods, shield reps, capacitor mods, warp scramblers and disrupters are just some of the mod choices you have to make to fit WCS and let us not forget about the sig radius increase that they cause. The WCS are fine the way they are and those who choose to use them have more than enough compromises to deal with. What we need are fewer entitled players like you and the OP that believe that you should not have to make fitting choices / compromises to be able to counter the WCS. |
Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
54
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 16:29:42 -
[37] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:
THEY DO NOT WANT TO FIGHT.
Fights do not win FW capturing complexes does. Fights do not make LP / ISK capturing complexes does.
And so fights with other players enemy faction or non-aligned pirates like you is to be avoided whenever possible. To put this another way if you want fights in your FW experience then you need to FORCE the other players you come into contact with into those fights.
That is the player's purpose for being there, but ask yourself what the purpose of the FW is. Is it for people to make LP/ISK, or is the LP/ISK an incentive for players to go there so that they can get fights?
Allow me to bold the relevant part of the name: Faction Warfare
When they rename the sites to Faction isk farming, then you argument becomes relevant.
If they want to avoid fights, they can run missions in high sec. Players shouldn't be making obscene isk running away from content.
Edit:
Donnachadh wrote: What useless non-sense is this. Fitting WCS already has some serious drawbacks as in they use a mid slot.
Since when? WCS use lowslots. Which means you can fit as much tank as you want. And if their goal is to run away like little bitches, what compromises are they actually making apart from none? They aren't looking to fight anyways, the drawbacks are irrelevant to them. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3310
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 16:50:43 -
[38] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Merin Ryskin wrote:Donnachadh wrote:You have failed in every way that it is possible for you to fail in a situation where you should have had the upper hand. Lolwut. Do you know anything about FW PvP? The target has every advantage in this situation, not the hunter. If they're spamming d-scan with a short radius they'll have plenty of advance warning of any ship warping to their site and can align out. Then if the potential threat enters the site they immediately warp out before the hunter can finish exiting warp. And even if they miss the hunter on d-scan if they're smart they're going to move away from the warp-in point so that they still have time to align out and warp even if they don't start trying until after the hunter appears on their overview. Now, I have no problem with that part of the situation. A target escaping because of superior situational awareness is fine. My problem is that WCS eliminates the need to pay attention to any of those things. You don't need to spam d-scan or even pay attention to the overview. You can just sit on the warp-in beacon at 0km and press "warp" as soon as you hear the scram notification, and because you have lows full of WCS you're guaranteed to escape. Maybe make it so FW players cannot fit stabs on their non-hauler ships and restrict haulers so they cannot be used in these sites.
Or just don't change anything since there are counter to stabs anyway. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
90
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 16:54:58 -
[39] - Quote
Look... if we're talking about farming plexes, there are lots of things that can be done to limit that.
I don't think removing WCS is the answer for that. WCS is the counter to Scram/Disruptor use and I don't think you should remove one without removing the other.
I favor the idea of placing every FW plex inside a bubble that extends 10km past the range where you can trigger the plex. Other than farming in an interceptor, you're going to risk PvP when you enter a FW plex.
It's two different issues. FW plex farming is an issue. WCS are not. |
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
472
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 01:01:23 -
[40] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Rawketsled wrote:Give them some sort of spool-up or preparation mechanic - either a warm-up timer like MJDs, or make the align speed higher to make them stay on grid longer. The point is to make them stay on grid for a little while unless they're paying attention and can pre-empt your tackle (of course in this case they should just bloody warp out). The problem, again, is that things like this encourage blobbing. If you know you only have a fixed time before the WCS activates and breaks your point then you have to bring more dps to kill your target before they can escape. That gets you the kill, but makes the fight much less entertaining because it's so one-sided. Then a cap-intensive active WCS is the better alternative here.
WCS is the natural counter to a point. Neuting is the counter to the WCS.
If you want fights to be solo/fairer, then fit neuts and drain them before they warp out. |
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Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
472
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 01:06:27 -
[41] - Quote
Max Deveron wrote:AAaaannnndddd there is the problem.
Pirate, not Militia, entering Plex sites.......
You know what, I could agree with you maybe.....
If first anybody not Militia entering one of these complex sites automatically becomes suspect (flashy yellow) the moment you hit the "use the acceleration" button on your UI.
Because without that, if someone cares about their Standings....they have to wait for you to shoot first, and as a non-military pilot or such, you have no legal business being in one of those sights.
Pirates don't worry about security status. Making them flashy-yellow isn't going to matter because they're almost always minus-five security anyway. |
Alessienne Ellecon
Solitude Rangers
102
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 09:22:22 -
[42] - Quote
Rawketsled wrote:Merin Ryskin wrote:Rawketsled wrote:Give them some sort of spool-up or preparation mechanic - either a warm-up timer like MJDs, or make the align speed higher to make them stay on grid longer. The point is to make them stay on grid for a little while unless they're paying attention and can pre-empt your tackle (of course in this case they should just bloody warp out). The problem, again, is that things like this encourage blobbing. If you know you only have a fixed time before the WCS activates and breaks your point then you have to bring more dps to kill your target before they can escape. That gets you the kill, but makes the fight much less entertaining because it's so one-sided. Then a cap-intensive active WCS is the better alternative here. WCS is the natural counter to a point. Neuting is the counter to the WCS. If you want fights to be solo/fairer, then fit neuts and drain them before they warp out.
That's not strictly necessary. Don't forget that cap is required to warp, so if you neut someone right down to zero, they will only be able to flee a short distance, in which case you can easily catch up and hit them some more.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
326
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 10:02:12 -
[43] - Quote
Alessienne Ellecon wrote:That's not strictly necessary. Don't forget that cap is required to warp, so if you neut someone right down to zero, they will only be able to flee a short distance, in which case you can easily catch up and hit them some more.
Lolwut? That's a pretty impressive ignorance of game mechanics. Even a tiny amount of cap is enough to warp way off grid, and you'll have enough cap to complete your escape long before anyone can get scan probes on you and catch you. The fact that you don't immediately get to your destination is meaningless when "a short distance" is thousands of kilometers, if not millions.
Donnachadh wrote:Fights do not win FW capturing complexes does. Fights do not make LP / ISK capturing complexes does. And so fights with other players enemy faction or non-aligned pirates like you is to be avoided whenever possible. To put this another way if you want fights in your FW experience then you need to FORCE the other players you come into contact with into those fights.
And this is exactly the problem with the situation: faction WARFARE is being used for ISK farming, not war. The strategy of "fit WCS and avoid combat at all costs" should not be profitable. The ISK is supposed to be a reward for engaging in PvP, not the primary objective. Nerfing WCS to make stabbed plex farming impossible would be a nice first step in removing the ISK farmers from FW.
Cade Windstalker wrote:If you really wanted to catch these guys you could fit up a triple-scram setup or something and give the really inattentive ones a nasty surprise. The reason no one does this is because they don't like the trade-off they have to make.
No, the reason is that the tradeoff is impossible to make. A triple-scram setup is a suicidally stupid fit on many ships, especially the T1 frigates that are popular in FW. If you even have enough mids to do it you're giving up your AB/MWD, which means the only thing you can possibly engage is stabbed farmers. Any PvP opponent is going to kill you effortlessly. And you probably aren't even going to catch the one thing you can beat, since it's so easy to get out of scram range against a stationary opponent.
Quote:I highly highly doubt that, they'll just swap from WCS to full nano/inertial stab fits and continue to attempt to run away, because what they're after is ISK not a fight.
And, as I said, that's fine. At least that involves superior situational awareness and being faster than the hunter, not simply fitting WCS and declaring themselves immune to PvP.
Quote:Situational awareness only gets you so far, ECM and neuts don't work on a large variety of ships and ECM specifically is ineffective without a bonused ship, align time is the worst tank above insta-warp, the list of arguments against your arguments goes on.
Sounds like you don't know PvP very well. Situational awareness is an auto-win because a target will appear on d-scan with plenty of time for you to escape. When combined with a fast align time it's almost impossible to catch a ship that is paying attention, unless they're willing to fight.
And yes, those other things are situational, but that's kind of the point. They require a good strategy and knowing how to win the fight, not simply declaring "I can not be tackled" and turning off PvP. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
326
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 10:09:55 -
[44] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:EvE is about choices and the consequences that go along with those choices, the FW farmers are making choices and willing to suffer the consequences that may come as a result of those choices, yet you are not, and yes you do have choices.
The point that the pro-WCS side keeps ignoring is that the FW farmers don't make sacrifices. At no point does fitting WCS interfere with their ability to farm ISK at maximum efficiency. There mere presence in the plex counts towards capturing it, no matter what ship/fit they have. If you're a plex farmer there is literally no reason to use anything but a full rack of WCS, preferably on a ship with an inherent WCS bonus.
And of course the same is true for other areas of ISK farming. Running relic/data sites? Fit all the WCS you want, at no point will it reduce your ISK per hour. Even most combat PvE is easy enough that you can fit enough WCS to be immune to most PvP ships without sacrificing much.
Quote:You could use a ship with a more appropriate set of traits and slot layout as Daichi suggests, but you are not willing to do that because. Another failure on your part.
And, again, this is a sign of a serious balance issue if only a very small number of ships can even get fights at all. The fact that a small number of ships can, with specific fits, have enough points to catch stabbed farmers (usually at the expensive of being able to engage anything else) does not negate the fact that most ships/fits can't do it. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services Singularity Syndicate
2141
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 10:58:56 -
[45] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Donnachadh wrote:EvE is about choices and the consequences that go along with those choices, the FW farmers are making choices and willing to suffer the consequences that may come as a result of those choices, yet you are not, and yes you do have choices. The point that the pro-WCS side keeps ignoring is that the FW farmers don't make sacrifices. At no point does fitting WCS interfere with their ability to farm ISK at maximum efficiency. There mere presence in the plex counts towards capturing it, no matter what ship/fit they have. If you're a plex farmer there is literally no reason to use anything but a full rack of WCS, preferably on a ship with an inherent WCS bonus. And of course the same is true for other areas of ISK farming. Running relic/data sites? Fit all the WCS you want, at no point will it reduce your ISK per hour. Even most combat PvE is easy enough that you can fit enough WCS to be immune to most PvP ships without sacrificing much. Quote:You could use a ship with a more appropriate set of traits and slot layout as Daichi suggests, but you are not willing to do that because. Another failure on your part. And, again, this is a sign of a serious balance issue if only a very small number of ships can even get fights at all. The fact that a small number of ships can, with specific fits, have enough points to catch stabbed farmers (usually at the expensive of being able to engage anything else) does not negate the fact that most ships/fits can't do it.
Surely this is a problem with the way faction war works, not with the way WCS work.
Also I thought the maximum low slots on a frig was four? So if you fit one scram and one faction scram you will be able to pin down any frigate no matter what they have fitted. You'd still have spare mids and no problem with your usual lows if you are in an armour frig. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2568
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 11:30:00 -
[46] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Donnachadh wrote:EvE is about choices and the consequences that go along with those choices, the FW farmers are making choices and willing to suffer the consequences that may come as a result of those choices, yet you are not, and yes you do have choices. The point that the pro-WCS side keeps ignoring is that the FW farmers don't make sacrifices. At no point does fitting WCS interfere with their ability to farm ISK at maximum efficiency. There mere presence in the plex counts towards capturing it, no matter what ship/fit they have. If you're a plex farmer there is literally no reason to use anything but a full rack of WCS, preferably on a ship with an inherent WCS bonus. And of course the same is true for other areas of ISK farming. Running relic/data sites? Fit all the WCS you want, at no point will it reduce your ISK per hour. Even most combat PvE is easy enough that you can fit enough WCS to be immune to most PvP ships without sacrificing much. Quote:You could use a ship with a more appropriate set of traits and slot layout as Daichi suggests, but you are not willing to do that because. Another failure on your part. And, again, this is a sign of a serious balance issue if only a very small number of ships can even get fights at all. The fact that a small number of ships can, with specific fits, have enough points to catch stabbed farmers (usually at the expensive of being able to engage anything else) does not negate the fact that most ships/fits can't do it.
I don't think anyone is arguing the facts of your arguments. The issue though lies with FW and not w/ stabs. Changing stabs would change the whole game. The point (from some of us) is leave stabs as is and fix the thing that's really broken.
It seems that the thing that is really broken is how FW is more about farming isk than about fighting over territory in LS. I'll ask you this: Does a FW beacon bubble and web tower seem like a reasonable fix to you? It would make stabs mostly irrelevant in the FW sites and require commitment and risk from anyone looking to farm the isk.
There is a lot of pve in eve that gives fairly decent isk return with minimal or no commitment. I think a general improvement to pve in specific and the game in general would be to require some more commitment when a player warps into a pve site. Bubbles, scrams, webs (I'm talking multiple like in sleeper sites, not just one suicidal npc frigate that cycles his point intermittently). And to be clear it should scale with the isk value of the site and the true sec of the system (and for obvious reasons if an alliance upgrades the pve in their system it would go hand in hand that the difficulty and commitment would go up with it).
FW is a specific slice of Eve and the stabbed plexer farmer is a thin slice of that. Fix the thin slice, don't change the whole game for that thin slice. |
Cade Windstalker
1412
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 13:18:36 -
[47] - Quote
Not a fan of having a site that webs, but having one that points could be a reasonable solution here.
The real point here is that the issues people have with FWar are complex and resist simple solutions. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3319
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 14:25:00 -
[48] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Not a fan of having a site that webs, but having one that points could be a reasonable solution here.
The real point here is that the issues people have with FWar are complex and resist simple solutions.
Navy Maulus solve all stabs issue. A base scram will disrupt for 4 points requiring 4 stabs fitted to escape. If you really want to go full try-hard on the farmers, go with a faction scram for 5 points of disruption. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
1227
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 15:02:49 -
[49] - Quote
Old Pervert wrote:That is the player's purpose for being there, but ask yourself what the purpose of the FW is. Is it for people to make LP/ISK, or is the LP/ISK an incentive for players to go there so that they can get fights?
Allow me to bold the relevant part of the name: Faction Warfare Under the current system there is no real benefit to engaging in a fight. Since you have to capture plexes to force a system into a vulnerable state and you cannot capture plexes when you are fighting others the system actually makes it better to avoid the fight and move on to another plex elsewhere. Even as defenders it is better for the overall goal as well as more profitable (ISK / LP) to simply go out and recapture a plex rather than fight to prevent one from being captured. Combine all of this with when and how the LP / ISK is actually paid out (when you capture a plex) and there is very little reason to actually engage in anything that resembles "war" or even a one on one fight over a plex. Setting that aside everything in this game right now is either exploited for LP / ISK or it is ignored by the vast majority of the players and FW is no different. So it you want some actual "war" in your FW then you need to lobby CCP to change the system so you only get paid LP / ISK for engaging in an actual war. But I caution you to be careful what you ask for because it is my belief that if FW was changed to actually promote war not only by game mechanics but by LP / ISK payouts the vast majority of the players that are currently in FW will simply do elsewhere in the game to make LP / ISK so you will likely have very few targets to shoot at anyway.
Old Pervert wrote:If they want to avoid fights, they can run missions in high sec. Players shouldn't be making obscene isk running away from content. Why should they go to high sec when they can make more LP / ISK farming plexes in FW? and that is assuming their sec status would even allow them to go into high sec to run missions.
Players should not be allowed to make obscene amounts of ISK running from content in nul sec and worm holes yet that happens every single minute that EvE is online with players in it, why should FW be any different.
Beside those FW farmers are not running from content, they are running from YOU and a form of content they do not want any part of,it is up to you and others like the OP to make them pay for their farming ways. Except you are just like to OP you have that entitled attitude that you should not have to compromise your fits to stop them so you come here and complain about a module that is well balanced as witnessed by comments from many of the players here.
Old PervertDonnachadh wrote:What useless non-sense is this. Fitting WCS already has some serious drawbacks as in they use a mid slot. Since when? WCS use lowslots. Which means you can fit as much tank as you want. And if their goal is to run away like little bitches, what compromises are they actually making apart from none? They aren't looking to fight anyways, the drawbacks are irrelevant to them.[/quote wrote: Oops got me on that one. Even accounting for my mistake there are more than enough negative aspects to using the WCS to balance them and players like Serendipity and Daichi are in agreement with me on that point.
[quote=Merin Ryskin]The point that the pro-WCS side keeps ignoring is that the FW farmers don't make sacrifices. At no point does fitting WCS interfere with their ability to farm ISK at maximum efficiency. There mere presence in the plex counts towards capturing it, no matter what ship/fit they have. If you're a plex farmer there is literally no reason to use anything but a full rack of WCS, preferably on a ship with an inherent WCS bonus.
It is only your opinion that stabbed out farmers make no sacrifices in their fits but that does not make it true. The fact that most of the others here in this topic think the WCS are well balanced and have more than sufficient compromises when fitting them tends to prove you wrong as does the simple fact that CCP has not changed them in forever.
And you keep ignoring a simple fact about the game of EvE. There is ALWAYS a ship that is well suited to any situation you may face. There is NEVER a single ship that is well suited for all situations you face. You have been given many options that you can emplooy to solve your problems, yet you continue to insist the WCS are broken and need to be changed or removed. Seems to me the real problem here is you, your attitude and your expectations. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
93
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 15:24:04 -
[50] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Donnachadh wrote:EvE is about choices and the consequences that go along with those choices, the FW farmers are making choices and willing to suffer the consequences that may come as a result of those choices, yet you are not, and yes you do have choices. The point that the pro-WCS side keeps ignoring is that the FW farmers don't make sacrifices. At no point does fitting WCS interfere with their ability to farm ISK at maximum efficiency. There mere presence in the plex counts towards capturing it, no matter what ship/fit they have. If you're a plex farmer there is literally no reason to use anything but a full rack of WCS, preferably on a ship with an inherent WCS bonus. And of course the same is true for other areas of ISK farming. Running relic/data sites? Fit all the WCS you want, at no point will it reduce your ISK per hour. Even most combat PvE is easy enough that you can fit enough WCS to be immune to most PvP ships without sacrificing much. Quote:You could use a ship with a more appropriate set of traits and slot layout as Daichi suggests, but you are not willing to do that because. Another failure on your part. And, again, this is a sign of a serious balance issue if only a very small number of ships can even get fights at all. The fact that a small number of ships can, with specific fits, have enough points to catch stabbed farmers (usually at the expensive of being able to engage anything else) does not negate the fact that most ships/fits can't do it.
the point is FW <> WCS.
If you want to limit WCS in FW space... sure. Have the plex scram everyone within range to trigger the plex with 10 points of scram or drop a bubble around it or something. Maybe just disable WCS in a plex.
But the module itself serves a purpose in other places (hauling/travel for example).
Getting rid of the module because it causes an issue in ONE part of eve is a silly solution. Just fix that one part of space to solve the issue.
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Maria Dragoon
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
138
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 16:26:06 -
[51] - Quote
I'm sorry, but I don't support ******* over a crap ton of different sub-cap haulers because you can't bring a friend or two to kill one guy that fitted himself to avoid solo-gankers.
Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius
"A man who talks to people who aren't real is crazy. A man who talks to people who aren't real and writes down what they say is an author."
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Elenahina
agony unleashed Agony Empire
1688
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 16:54:28 -
[52] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:[ Quote:Implying that anyone currently fitting WCS in a FW Plex is ever going to provide anything other than a one-sided fight... Maybe they will if they're forced to learn, instead of being coddled with an auto-escape option that allows them to avoid learning how to win a fight.
See, I think this is where your initial premise is flawed. Your assumption is that their definition of "winning" is the same as yours. They don't care about the fights. They care about the ISK. Take away their WCS and they'll just move on to some other activity that nets them an equitable risk to income ratio.
What they won't do is suddenly start shooting back. That I can pretty much promise you.
Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you.
Also, iderno
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Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
502
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 18:29:30 -
[53] - Quote
I believe the ship you're looking for is the Navy Maulus.
A signature :o
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3319
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 18:34:01 -
[54] - Quote
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:I believe the ship you're looking for is the Navy Maulus.
Been suggested. People ignored it... |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
330
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 18:37:12 -
[55] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Shallanna Yassavi wrote:I believe the ship you're looking for is the Navy Maulus. Been suggested. People ignored it...
Because a single ship being able to solve the problem does not mean that no balance problem exists. Focusing on this one particular ship is an implicit concession that there is a major balance problem making everything else useless. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
330
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 18:43:13 -
[56] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:The issue though lies with FW and not w/ stabs. Changing stabs would change the whole game. The point (from some of us) is leave stabs as is and fix the thing that's really broken.
It's a problem for more than FW, the stabbed FW farmers are just the most obvious instance of the problem. It's also a problem with relic/data sites, where filling your lows with WCS is also turning off PvP without suffering any penalties for it. And the "encouraging bad fits" problem exists any time people take WCS into PvP. Removing WCS, or at least nerfing them to be impossible to use on anything but a travel fit, would be good for the game as a whole.
Quote:Does a FW beacon bubble and web tower seem like a reasonable fix to you?
The bubble part would fix this one particular problem, but leave the rest untouched. WCS would still be a problem, but at least the primary abusers would be nerfed. But the webbing would be pointless and bad for balance, even if it applies to all ships equally you've still got problems like low-tracking guns suddenly dealing way more damage.
IMO the better solution might be to simply have any ship with WCS fitted not count towards capturing the site.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3319
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 18:46:57 -
[57] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Shallanna Yassavi wrote:I believe the ship you're looking for is the Navy Maulus. Been suggested. People ignored it... Because a single ship being able to solve the problem does not mean that no balance problem exists. Focusing on this one particular ship is an implicit concession that there is a major balance problem making everything else useless.
It's not even a problem it's just a bunch of people being ass-blasted they can't kill a half-afk farmer who pretty much nullified his ship combat capabilities so he can escape some engagements. The tools to counter his fits are there but you willingly refuse to use them. You deserve to have him escape from you and collect your salt all the way to his next PLEX where he will still escape you. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3319
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 18:49:52 -
[58] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote: The bubble part would fix this one particular problem, but leave the rest untouched.
This here prove that you do not even understand what is going on. A bubble on the beacon will change nothing except which ship will be used to do the farming. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
93
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 19:02:24 -
[59] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Merin Ryskin wrote: The bubble part would fix this one particular problem, but leave the rest untouched.
This here prove that you do not even understand what is going on. A bubble on the beacon will change nothing except which ship will be used to do the farming.
Maybe... but it makes it more expensive.
You have to train your farming toon to be able to fly interceptors. Racial frig V, Evasive Maneuvering V, Interceptor I. The ship it self costs more as well... so the "asleep at the wheel" moments when you can kill a farmer would cost them more.
An alternative would be to have the plex scram everyone in range with 10 points. Or just have WCS not work inside a plex.
The issue isn't the module... it's not even that it makes it so farmers can escape. It's simply that it makes it too easy for them to escape. You don't have to make it impossible to fix the problem... just more difficult. All of those options do just that. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
93
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 19:12:48 -
[60] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:The issue though lies with FW and not w/ stabs. Changing stabs would change the whole game. The point (from some of us) is leave stabs as is and fix the thing that's really broken. It's a problem for more than FW, the stabbed FW farmers are just the most obvious instance of the problem. It's also a problem with relic/data sites, where filling your lows with WCS is also turning off PvP without suffering any penalties for it. And the "encouraging bad fits" problem exists any time people take WCS into PvP. Removing WCS, or at least nerfing them to be impossible to use on anything but a travel fit, would be good for the game as a whole.
I'm not sure I see the problem with it in exploration fits. Cargo space and nano's both help with exploration fits (especially in null) so there is a tradeoff in what you use for lows. You also aren't entering a factional warfare complex... and while PvP CAN happen anywhere, preparing by fitting your ship for escape is also allowed.
One side trying to escape before the other can kill them is still pvp. If you take out WCS, it's literally impossible for non-combat ships to escape once disrupted/scrammed. That is simply not how eve works. There's always a counter. |
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3321
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 19:27:08 -
[61] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Merin Ryskin wrote: The bubble part would fix this one particular problem, but leave the rest untouched.
This here prove that you do not even understand what is going on. A bubble on the beacon will change nothing except which ship will be used to do the farming. Maybe... but it makes it more expensive. You have to train your farming toon to be able to fly interceptors. Racial frig V, Evasive Maneuvering V, Interceptor I. The ship it self costs more as well... so the "asleep at the wheel" moments when you can kill a farmer would cost them more. An alternative would be to have the plex scram everyone in range with 10 points. Or just have WCS not work inside a plex. The issue isn't the module... it's not even that it makes it so farmers can escape. It's simply that it makes it too easy for them to escape. You don't have to make it impossible to fix the problem... just more difficult. All of those options do just that.
The issue is that people think that being in a plex mean you should fight while the plexes were designed from the very beginning as not requiring to fight to complete. The people who are mad about this just aren't happy about the design of FW. It was never about a bunch of fight but always about territory presence. If you keep chasing the farmer away, they will never be able to take your systems so you are effectively winning the war. If people can't use stabbed ship to farm, they will use unfitted ships to reduce their occasional losses or just go elsewhere and the PvP seeker will realize they have 1 less problem since stabbed farmer no longer run away from them but they also have even less people in system to run after.
It's like people running PvE who run when you try to catch them. They don't run because it's easy, they run because it's more efficient to do so than fight. As long as fighting is less valuable than running, people will run. You can't stop that. You can make it more aggravating but past a threshold, your target stop running and just leave at which point even the tools you had to catch him stop working. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
330
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 19:57:47 -
[62] - Quote
Scialt wrote:I'm not sure I see the problem with it in exploration fits. Cargo space and nano's both help with exploration fits (especially in null) so there is a tradeoff in what you use for lows. You also aren't entering a factional warfare complex... and while PvP CAN happen anywhere, preparing by fitting your ship for escape is also allowed.
Cargo space is worthless because the high-value loot from exploration is also low-volume. By the time you've filled your standard cargo hold you're already putting hundreds of millions of ISK in a fragile ship, and it's time to unload that cargo somewhere safe. Nanos are useful, but primarily for improving your align time and escaping, something that WCS makes redundant.
And yes, fitting your ship for escape is also allowed. That should involve things like improving your align time to warp out before the threat can lock you, fitting speed buffs to out-run tackle, carrying ECM drones to attempt to jam your way out, etc. It should not involve fitting zero-penalty "I'm immune to PvP" modules.
Quote:One side trying to escape before the other can kill them is still pvp.
There is no trying, there is simply escape. You fit your WCS, and anything but a specialized anti-WCS ship is going to fail to catch you. And that's the problem. That isn't successful defensive PvP, it's turning off your PvP flag and being a pure PvE player.
Quote:If you take out WCS, it's literally impossible for non-combat ships to escape once disrupted/scrammed.
I fail to see the problem here. The primary defense of non-combat ships is not getting tackled in the first place. If you're caught it's because you already screwed up, and you don't have much right to complain. Perhaps the lesson here should be "don't fly non-combat ships". Don't fly unarmed frigates in FW sites, take an Astero/Stratios for exploration instead of an unarmed covops frigate, etc.
Now, there is an argument that WCS aren't a problem in the context of travel fits attempting to escape gate camps, but that's an easy solution. Just increase the penalties of WCS so that doing anything but travel is impossible. Things like setting your lock range to 0km would have no effect on travel-fit haulers. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
330
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 20:01:22 -
[63] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:The issue is that people think that being in a plex mean you should fight while the plexes were designed from the very beginning as not requiring to fight to complete.
Only because you can't depend on having an opponent available for a fight, so the mechanic has to be possible without the other side cooperating. That doesn't mean that the sites are supposed to be pure PvE farming, where combat is to be avoided at all costs. Perhaps the problem goes beyond WCS, but FW farming is not a good thing.
Quote:It's like people running PvE who run when you try to catch them. They don't run because it's easy, they run because it's more efficient to do so than fight. As long as fighting is less valuable than running, people will run. You can't stop that. You can make it more aggravating but past a threshold, your target stop running and just leave at which point even the tools you had to catch him stop working.
And, again, I have no problem with people running because they had sufficient situational awareness to recognize a threat and move to escape. What I have a problem with is lazy and/or incompetent players who completely ignore everything around them, confident that they have WCS fitted and can just warp out when someone tries to attack them. That kind of stupidity should get you caught and killed, but WCS let you turn off your PvP flag and get away with it. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3322
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 20:47:34 -
[64] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:
And, again, I have no problem with people running because they had sufficient situational awareness to recognize a threat and move to escape. What I have a problem with is lazy and/or incompetent players who completely ignore everything around them, confident that they have WCS fitted and can just warp out when someone tries to attack them. That kind of stupidity should get you caught and killed, but WCS let you turn off your PvP flag and get away with it.
You are too lazy and/or incompetent to fit 2 scrams or use a navy maulus and you want incompetence and laziness to be nerfed? Will you also ask CCP to nerf ECM when people turn to that to break your lock and escape you because you obviously can't fit ECCM on a standard PvP ship in the same way you can't fit 2 scrams or use a different ship.
Merin Ryskin wrote: There is no trying, there is simply escape. You fit your WCS, and anything but a specialized anti-WCS ship is going to fail to catch you. And that's the problem. That isn't successful defensive PvP, it's turning off your PvP flag and being a pure PvE player.
About this, you consider <2 seconds align ceptor to be turning PvP flag off right? Or anything below 2 seconds since you probably spend most of your time in low sec. |
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
330
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 21:08:12 -
[65] - Quote
Rawketsled wrote:Max Deveron wrote:AAaaannnndddd there is the problem.
Pirate, not Militia, entering Plex sites.......
You know what, I could agree with you maybe.....
If first anybody not Militia entering one of these complex sites automatically becomes suspect (flashy yellow) the moment you hit the "use the acceleration" button on your UI.
Because without that, if someone cares about their Standings....they have to wait for you to shoot first, and as a non-military pilot or such, you have no legal business being in one of those sights.
Pirates don't worry about security status. Making them flashy-yellow isn't going to matter because they're almost always minus-five security anyway.
try injecting the Reading Comprehension Skill first. |
Doddy
Excidium.
964
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 21:17:57 -
[66] - Quote
To be honest it is already loaded in your favour. You can counter 3 stabs with two med slots. You not fitting enough points to counter the stabs is no different to you not fitting enough speed to keep up with them, enough firepower to break their tank or enough tank to survive their firepower. Everything in eve is give and take, they gimp their fit to load up on stabs, you can gimp your fit to catch them. Double scram rocket bomber catches every stabbed frigate i ever came across tbh, venture with their built in stabs apart. They aren't "immune to pvp", they are immune to people who don't fit right. And its not zero penalty, since they are completely at the mercy of people who, guess what, fit right.
Saying they will get away unless you are flying a specific anti wcs set up is kind of missing the point of eve. If you want to hunt stabbed frigates in fw plexes you should be flying a specific anti wcs setup, that is how eve works. You wanting to hunt them in a normal fit ship says more about you than them. |
Fek Mercer
Tactically Challenged Tactical Supremacy
60
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 21:50:23 -
[67] - Quote
I think a lot of people here are simply saying to bring ships built around catching stabbed plexers, but what happens when you run into a plexer willing to fight? I don't think faction warfare players should be forced into a dice roll like that, it's just screams bad design, flipping a coin and hoping your opponent is fit to run away. Not to mention, even if everyone you ran into was stabbed, the lack of good fights would probably turn stale to many people. What's more, in my experience, it's not just stabs, people align out the second they see you within < 1au on dscan, and hit the jump button as you arrive into the site from taking the gate.
If you want people to stop bringing stabs, I'd suggest CCP using the 'natural phenomena are disruptng your ship' kind of message spiel when attempting to warp to a plex/use an acceleration gate |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2576
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 22:08:40 -
[68] - Quote
Fek Mercer wrote:I think a lot of people here are simply saying to bring ships built around catching stabbed plexers, but what happens when you run into a plexer willing to fight? I don't think faction warfare players should be forced into a dice roll like that, it's just screams bad design, flipping a coin and hoping your opponent is fit to run away. Not to mention, even if everyone you ran into was stabbed, the lack of good fights would probably turn stale to many people. What's more, in my experience, it's not just stabs, people align out the second they see you within < 1au on dscan, and hit the jump button as you arrive into the site from taking the gate.
If you want people to stop bringing stabs, I'd suggest CCP using the 'natural phenomena are disruptng your ship' kind of message spiel when attempting to warp to a plex/use an acceleration gate
If I were in FW and presented w/ the farmer or pvp? Question - I would immediately consult my overpowered intel (local chat) and drop the name of the person in question into a kb and check the results. If he's a farmer it will light up red w/ stabbed this or that's or (if he's really good at risk aversion) nothing will show up. If he's a pvp guy lurking in the site the kb will tell you that also. Based on my over powered intel I can jump in the appropriate ship and have a go at it.
If he's somewhere in between then that is when you clench your butt, pick a ship, warp in and see what's what.
Honestly all you 'pvp guys' that are crying that they can't always be fit to win..... sheesh. Get a keres alt or I don't know.... a friend maybe and gang up on the guy. If you're that "I'm an elite solo pvp only guy, well accept Eve for what it is and understand those good solo fights are going to be few and far between.
I hate to say this, because I feel I'm insulting the pvp guys, but here it is - instead of focusing on hating stabs, get in your pvp ship and just go system to system ratting in belts. You'll get some isk, other pvp guys in the area will find you and you'll get pvp fights.
If you're a 'pvp guy' that only wants to wonk up on ratters - don't cry because of WCS cry because you're doing it wrong. |
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
472
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 01:23:21 -
[69] - Quote
[EDIT:] Derp. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3323
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 03:23:12 -
[70] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I hate to say this, because I feel I'm insulting the pvp guys, but here it is - instead of focusing on hating stabs, get in your pvp ship and just go system to system ratting in belts. You'll get some isk, other pvp guys in the area will find you and you'll get pvp fights.
But but... I managed to land a single point on the enemy, I deserve the kill!!!! |
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3323
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 03:26:01 -
[71] - Quote
Fek Mercer wrote:I think a lot of people here are simply saying to bring ships built around catching stabbed plexers, but what happens when you run into a plexer willing to fight? I don't think faction warfare players should be forced into a dice roll like that, it's just screams bad design, flipping a coin and hoping your opponent is fit to run away. Not to mention, even if everyone you ran into was stabbed, the lack of good fights would probably turn stale to many people. What's more, in my experience, it's not just stabs, people align out the second they see you within < 1au on dscan, and hit the jump button as you arrive into the site from taking the gate.
If you want people to stop bringing stabs, I'd suggest CCP using the 'natural phenomena are disruptng your ship' kind of message spiel when attempting to warp to a plex/use an acceleration gate
Oh noes, in EVE online, I might not always be 100% fit to take 100% of the fights. How could the devs ever let that happen.
God sometime I really feel I could bury myself in salt bu just rolling an alt to "afk-farm" FW plexes in a griffin and jamming people. |
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
472
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 04:09:26 -
[72] - Quote
Max Deveron wrote:Rawketsled wrote:Max Deveron wrote:AAaaannnndddd there is the problem.
Pirate, not Militia, entering Plex sites.......
You know what, I could agree with you maybe.....
If first anybody not Militia entering one of these complex sites automatically becomes suspect (flashy yellow) the moment you hit the "use the acceleration" button on your UI.
Because without that, if someone cares about their Standings....they have to wait for you to shoot first, and as a non-military pilot or such, you have no legal business being in one of those sights.
Pirates don't worry about security status. Making them flashy-yellow isn't going to matter because they're almost always minus-five security anyway. try injecting the Reading Comprehension Skill first. What did I miss? |
Fek Mercer
Tactically Challenged Tactical Supremacy
60
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 04:28:55 -
[73] - Quote
Rawketsled wrote:Max Deveron wrote:Rawketsled wrote:Max Deveron wrote:AAaaannnndddd there is the problem.
Pirate, not Militia, entering Plex sites.......
You know what, I could agree with you maybe.....
If first anybody not Militia entering one of these complex sites automatically becomes suspect (flashy yellow) the moment you hit the "use the acceleration" button on your UI.
Because without that, if someone cares about their Standings....they have to wait for you to shoot first, and as a non-military pilot or such, you have no legal business being in one of those sights.
Pirates don't worry about security status. Making them flashy-yellow isn't going to matter because they're almost always minus-five security anyway. try injecting the Reading Comprehension Skill first. What did I miss?
It's the militant that gets the short end of the stick if he doesn't want to lose standings. If he preemptively attacks the pirate, he loses sec status, thus we should make non faction warfare pilots get suspect status when entering a plex. But, this thread is about warp core stabilizers... |
Ronnie Rose
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 04:44:56 -
[74] - Quote
I'm for getting rid of WCS along with WC scramblers and jammers.
We're not here to change the game, we're here to change YOUR game
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Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
473
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 07:02:34 -
[75] - Quote
Fek Mercer wrote:Rawketsled wrote:Max Deveron wrote:Rawketsled wrote:Max Deveron wrote:AAaaannnndddd there is the problem.
Pirate, not Militia, entering Plex sites.......
You know what, I could agree with you maybe.....
If first anybody not Militia entering one of these complex sites automatically becomes suspect (flashy yellow) the moment you hit the "use the acceleration" button on your UI.
Because without that, if someone cares about their Standings....they have to wait for you to shoot first, and as a non-military pilot or such, you have no legal business being in one of those sights.
Pirates don't worry about security status. Making them flashy-yellow isn't going to matter because they're almost always minus-five security anyway. try injecting the Reading Comprehension Skill first. What did I miss? It's the militant that gets the short end of the stick if he doesn't want to lose standings. If he preemptively attacks the pirate, he loses sec status, thus we should make non faction warfare pilots get suspect status when entering a plex. But, this thread is about warp core stabilizers... Even if the pirate is already -5?
I've been operating under the assumption that you could shoot -5 people with zero standing repercussion. |
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