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Victoria Grey
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
57
   |
Posted - 2017.05.08 20:38:29 -
[31] - Quote
There is a lot here but before I dive deep into it, I must say that I deeply respect you Pilot Rhiannon for bringing this up. If I am correct here, the message here really is is that you are sick of the silence and inactivity and the "keeping your head down" mentality as you call it. And that, despite holding political views very nearly diametrically opposed to my own, is something I whole heartedly agree on.
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Here are some things that have been suggested:
...
3) Fight the toy war, keep your head down. and hope for the best.
The Ushra'Khan way.
4) Ignore the unpleasantness, keep your head down, and keep on building and preparing in the Republic. (Use toy war for practice.)
The Electus Matari way.
...
6) Have political debates and otherwise keep on talking about it, because capsuleers can somewhat safely voice objections that baseliners might be unable to.
Talk is cheap and I have plenty of it in stock. Risks for baseline kin are obvious, however. Also see point no 2.
I agree that action needs to be taken. I agree that there needs to be a solution besides the above (albeit curated) responses. I've said this before but the Toy War deeply troubles me in its ability to completely dismantle any action that we may take and it only further dilutes our own self image as brothers and sisters of Matar. I say this as one who once flew with Ushra'Khan as a proud member of Masuat'aa Matari. I left soon after they dived straight into the Toy War.
What can we really do? Unify and Discuss. So really a merging of all three options. This isn't a solution so much as a first step to a resolution. I have no say in anything that the various Matari aligned corps and alliances want but from my viewpoint, why not combine efforts of both Electus Matari and Ushra'Khan?
I know that I may not be addressing the right people to suggest this but my honest opinion is the same as someone else on this thread: We need someone(s) influential/in the thick of things to come forward. And that would be Electus Matari and Ushra'Khan. If neither of those organizations are willing to do something to do something, how can any of us individuals, especially those of us disillusioned with the Toy War?
Ioannis Sepphiros wrote:
...
Those that matter/are in the thick of it should step up and be beacons of hope and unity Captain Rhiannon, I dont harbor such false notions about myself nor I could contribute in a fundamental manner given my youth as a capsuleer within this topic. I can only state what I would like to see from a personal viewpoint and thats as far as I can go about this given how I would be disrespectful to the rest before me that have done so much about the Republic, each to his/her own capacity and will.
...
Hope, unity and pragmatism Captain that are the tools I can only think of. No civil wars, no assasinations, not going away and so on. Just hope, unity and pragmatism.
Pilot Sepphiros, you are who I was referring to above. I very much agree with everything you said.
Arrendis wrote:...
That doesn't mean I don't agree with your larger position regarding the military situation between the Empire and the Republic, though. I also tend to agree with Miz, though, on the inevitability of the question: Ok, so now what?
I don't know that I've got an answer, either. I think there's broad agreement on principals... the security of the Tribes, freedom fro our people, etc, but how we go about getting that...
...
Anyone got any ideas?
This, I believe is the heart of your topic.
Sinti Vailatti wrote:Ok...
...
3. The U'K way is attractive and romantic and good for sharpening combat skills. But it's a waste of time and resources. This is the bad part of CONCORD. They keep us so tied up in this that we can't take care of things that deserve more attention.
4. Sorry to be blunt...but this is slave mentality. I know this from personal experience. You just do the work and hope things will change...but it never really does. You gotta be an agent of change.
...
6. This. This we can do and do a lot. This used to be a thing here and it isn't as much as it was. Republican Tribals, Ammantar, Angels, Thukkers, Wormholers, NullSeccers and Amarrians....those of Matar are still Matari. We used to talk a lot. And it often got loud. I think maybe it's time for us be noisy again?
Again, another person I wholeheartedly agree with. Bolded the especially important bits.
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:And there it is. Ell, I can give you no comforts but only one promise: Whether we succeed or go down in flames, you will not be alone.
Another agree. Suggestions? Talk to Electus Matari leadership about further actions. See if a dialogue can be opened. Call for a summit between Electus Matari and U'K.
We are not devoid of options here and talking has a lot more power than you would think. |
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
Sani-Sabik
2154
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 20:47:34 -
[32] - Quote
Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote:Val's just trying to be funny.
I'm not trying very hard though.
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3472
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 22:08:23 -
[33] - Quote
Ioannis Sepphiros wrote:
Those that matter/are in the thick of it should step up and be beacons of hope and unity Captain Rhiannon, I dont harbor such false notions about myself nor I could contribute in a fundamental manner given my youth as a capsuleer within this topic. I can only state what I would like to see from a personal viewpoint and thats as far as I can go about this given how I would be disrespectful to the rest before me that have done so much about the Republic, each to his/her own capacity and will.
A question on this: precisely who are you referring to when you say 'those that matter are in the thick of it'?
Challis Drant wrote:Sometimes I think that the so called toy war is perfect stagnation - whilst we have it - we cannot go forward and those in power are going to do all they can to make sure it never ends. No one in their right minds wants 3000 + capsuleers to suddenly have nothing better to do - for they know just how shallow their control is over pod pilots.
Well, that is exactly what the Pendulum is designed to be, yes. |
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
593
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 04:30:38 -
[34] - Quote
The funny thing is that while the CEWPA war is an absolute dead end for the Matari State, it is a perfect source of power for the usurpers of the Republic. A constant state of crisis is a wonderful thing for a regime that lacks any legitimacy whatsoever.
The best hope the Matari have at this point is to start working in good faith for a lasting and sincere peace. Of course, the second that occurs, the current government is likely to be strung up by their own people, so the current government has no incentive to work towards peace. And for that matter, the current government would not be trusted (with good reason!) to be working in good faith. This means that they have to be removed for the Matari to survive as an independent state. If they stay in power, I expect it is only a matter of time before they do something (else) that is monumentally stupid. Whether that ends up being alienating the Federation or attempting another all or nothing invasion, or some other insanity, doesn't really matter so much as the fact that those actions strengthen the Amarr warhawk argument for outright invasion rather than the current situation of suppression.
The largest place in which I disagree with your analyses, obvious cultural differences aside, is that I cannot imagine a more surefire way to destroy the Matari State than opening a full scale war. Amarr has been at the forefront of technological innovation recently and our navy has more practical recent experience fighting large scale engagements than any of the others. The material cost of the Blood Raider War, Sansha's War, and the Drifter incursions has certainly been high, but we can afford those costs better than the other empires. More importantly, the combat experience that we have gained from those actions is invaluable. Those who survived the trials of the last decade are the most combat experienced of naval forces. When you combine that with our edge in resources and manpower, a full scale war with Amarr would only end with catastrophe for the Matari. You might hurt us quite a bit as you died, but you would not survive doing so, and you might strengthen the very aspects of Amarr society that you most despise.
So, if we accept the following statements: 1. The CEWPA war hurts the Matari more than the Amarr in relative terms. 2. Total war would almost certainly end in Matari destruction and 3. The usurpers have no domestic incentive to end the CEWPA war with a peace, then the only conclusion I can see is that the usurpers must be removed from power as soon as possible and a new regime that is not invested in a losing war must take their place.
This then raises the question of what conditions need to be in place for a change of government in the Republic to a rational government that is be willing to make the compromises needed to create a lasting peace. As you have mentioned, either a civil war or a simple assassination would be a poor idea if the goal is the survival of the republic. Such an event would strengthen the Amarr hawk factions and create a strong argument for a real invasion to end the threat to Amarr.
So that cannot be the answer. But they need to go. What mechanisms exist that could remove them from power?
One obvious one from my, admittedly foreign and hostile, perspective is the CEWPA war. So long as the Matari have occasional victories in the CEWPA war, the usurpers can spin those victories into domestic support. They can create the illusion that the CEWPA war can be sufficiently victorious that it actually ends up strengthening the Matari state. This will never happen, but the hope that it could keeps dissent down.
One question I would raise is "what happens if the Matari were unequivocally losing the CEWPA war?" The actual harm to the state would not be significantly higher than the current situation, the CEWPA war is pretty limited in that respect, but the political effect would be to remove the war as a support for the Usurpers. I would suggest that by fighting to help the Matari in the CEWPA war, you directly lower the probability of the survival of the Matari state in the future.
I'm sure there are other pillars to their power that are opaque to me from my position on the other side of the battle lines, and probably ones that are less problematic to deal with than the CEWPA war. But, whatever they are, they need to be removed one by one so that the usurpers lose their hold on the mechanism of the Matari state. This needs to happen relatively peacefully, and the new government needs to offer an olive branch to our new government. I do not see any other way to avoid catastrophe.
Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade
Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3480
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 05:11:43 -
[35] - Quote
Couple of problems with this.
First there's the claim that the Empire's been at the forefront of military technology, as though there hasn't been pretty much exact parity. In fact, in subcapital engagements (as the majority of the fighting would be), the Lif is a far superior choice when compared to the Apostle. The thing that keeps the Lif from being more or less the Force Auxiliary of choice in the crucible of capital warfare in nullsec is the Energy Transfer range.
In subcapital warfare, however, this is far less of a consideration, and the local repair capabilities and capacitor warfare resistance of the Lif, along with the ability to be configured to work with a fleet of armor- or shield-based subcapitals, make it a significantly more capable ship than the Apostle. And I say this as someone who owns and flies both.
Second, your assessment about 'what if the Matari were unequivocally losing the CEWPA war?' Well, we saw that for a number of years, beginning in late YC 114. It didn't seem to matter. At all. Now, I could draw the obvious 'the CEWPA doesn't matter. At all' conclusion, but I don't think that's accurate, either. I think that fighting as underdogs, fighting the hopeless conflict and being driven back, actually helps the situation from the viewpoint of many Matari loyalists and politicos.
Let's face it, we're used to being outnumbered and outgunned, and feeling like our backs are to the wall. Perpetuating that, in an environment where the Republic loyalists can't be eradicated? It's only going to harden resolve. The more interesting question would be: What if the Matari were to unequivocably win the CEWPA war? Not just 'get their medal' type win, but a long-term, sustained control of the entire warzone without Amarr capsuleer incursions to attempt to drive them back?
Losing just means there's more need to resist, to strike back.
What if we won, and there was no-one left to shoot? What happens then in an environment where the political red meat has focused on 'first the warzone, and then the rest', when 'the rest' can't even be considered, or CONCORD will shut them down?
Which brings up the third, and most elemental issue: The simple fact is no matter what course of regime change anyone attempts, there will be, there can be no lasting peace so long as the Empire holds Matari slaves. Until then... more bullets. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
874
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 05:36:36 -
[36] - Quote
Victoria Grey wrote:What can we really do? Unify and Discuss. So really a merging of all three options. This isn't a solution so much as a first step to a resolution. I have no say in anything that the various Matari aligned corps and alliances want but from my viewpoint, why not combine efforts of both Electus Matari and Ushra'Khan?
I know that I may not be addressing the right people to suggest this but my honest opinion is the same as someone else on this thread: We need someone(s) influential/in the thick of things to come forward.
Combine their efforts to do what? Which way is forward?
I'm sorry if I am contrary and keep on coming back to this - but it is really at the heart of the issue.
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:paraphrased: "I suggest you just pack up your toys and surrender"
Nice try.
It is by now a clearly established fact that if one side holds the complete field, exactly nothing happens.
We also have no way whatsoever to enforce a ban on fighting, so even moral and efficiency concerns aside, your suggestion is not practical.
Challis Drant wrote:Sometimes I think that the so called toy war is perfect stagnation
Yes. And there is the fact that at its time, the Militia Act was a somewhat clever move: it allowed us to de-escalate from a full-out war after the Elder Fleet's actions. It is just that it cannot remain a permanent solution. |
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
597
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 10:51:10 -
[37] - Quote
That is a remarkable misread of my analysis, Elsebeth. Some points:
1. Holding the complete field is strategically irrelevant. The only things that matter are relative cost to each state in the long term and the domestic political environment at any moment of defeat. It's simplistic to expect a single moment of defeat that was not accompanied by a domestic crisis to be enough to topple a government. My analysis office suggests that it would take several years without any moments of victory in the CEWPA war for the war on its own to topple the Usurpers. A more likely scenario is that a domestic crisis unrelated to the war in a moment at which the war looks grim could cause a failure cascade that topples the government, but such a thing would require a perfect storm.
2. You seem to be after a silver bullet that will reset the situation to before the usurpation. The Matari states problems are far too systemic for such a thing to occur. For the Usurpers to be replaced without a civil war will require a rather large set of conditions to be in place, most of which are domestic. You are not going to engineer a perfect solution, but the first step towards working towards those conditions is to refuse to do anything that strengthens the Usurpers.
3. You seem to be looking for the sting in anything I say. Reasonable enough, given history. Perhaps it will help if I elaborate on why I am interested in a solution to your problem that does not involve an Amarr invasion. As you probably correctly assume, I do not care in the slightest about what happens to the Matari state or its people. My concern is Amarr and the people it is my duty to protect, including Amarr of Matari descent. The Matari state under Usurper leadership is, however, remarkably unpredictable and as such is dangerous. It poses a low to nonexistent existential threat to Amarr, but if the Matari do something stupid the cost will still be high. It will also strengthen factions in Amarr that I consider dangerous for the prosperity of the people I defend. I wish to see this threat removed at the lowest cost to Amarr possible. Right now, the absolute best case scenario seems to rest on the hope that enough Matari will turn on the Usurpers to remove them from power. It is not the only solution, but it is the cheapest, for both sides.
Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade
Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
876
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 11:14:16 -
[38] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote: My analysis office suggests that it would take several years without any moments of victory in the CEWPA war for the war on its own to topple the Usurpers.
Your analysis office should advice you that this is completely unfeasible. There are always people willing to fight, and nothing to stop them. Even if everyone currently in space agreed to simply stop (which is implausible in itself), new captains will come from the academies every day with their eyes shining with the recruiter's promises of glory and isk.
Quote:You seem to be after a silver bullet that will reset the situation to before the usurpation.
I don't know what is the matter with people. I have said, repeatedly, that I do not think a solution exists. Yet some keep on asking me one, and others criticizing me of believing in silver bullets.
Quote:You seem to be looking for the sting in anything I say. Reasonable enough, given history. Perhaps it will help if I elaborate on why I am interested in a solution to your problem that does not involve an Amarr invasion.
Your concern for the safety of what you see as "your people" has never been in question or unclear in my eyes.
Quote:The Matari state under Usurper leadership is, however, remarkably unpredictable and as such is dangerous.
Maybe it is of some consolation to you then that they have been nothing but predictable for almost ten years now. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3481
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 11:46:09 -
[39] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
I am also not looking to go back to what we were. First, what has happened is part of our living tradition now, and you cannot just pretend it never happened - and second, it's not like we did not have problems those days too.
And a fair number of us, both non-capsuleers then, and capsuleers now, really would be fairly disgusted by the Republic trying to go back to Gallente-style mob rule. As the Ray of Matar said: we tried it. It wasn't for us.
Quote:Maybe it is of some consolation to you then that they have been nothing but predictable for almost ten years now.
Oh, I don't know. I don't think many people predicted Shakor turning up for the Empress' coronation.
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
876
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 12:02:13 -
[40] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Maybe it is of some consolation to you then that they have been nothing but predictable for almost ten years now. Oh, I don't know. I don't think many people predicted Shakor turning up for the Empress' coronation.
Ok, I give you that.
And also thanks for actually making me laugh. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3484
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 12:34:23 -
[41] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:And also thanks for actually making me laugh.
I'm generally not allowed to talk about how much time the Sanmatar and Catie seem to have spent together. A lot of the Amarr pilots get all sorts of irate when I point out how popular the Brutor bad-boys are with all those proper Amarr noblewomen in the holos. Shak-man gotta keep his girl in line, you know? |
Sinti Vailatti
Angelis Exploration
270
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 13:32:11 -
[42] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:Blah, blah, blah...
Gaven,
This isn't about you. I know you think you know all the answers when it comes to us, but you...especially you, don't get to come here and offer an opinion on what we should or shouldn't do.
You do understand why an Amarr loyalist's words aren't going to be entirely popular here, right?
We don't want or need the Empire to tell us what to do.
Maybe you should take care of your own space before the Drifters gank another Empress, m'kay? Leave Matari concerns to Matari.
GÇ£Where must we go...we who wander this wasteland, in search of our better selves?GÇ¥
|
KillJoy Tseng
Icecream Audit Office
Electus Matari
5
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 13:33:00 -
[43] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:And also thanks for actually making me laugh. I'm generally not allowed to talk about how much time the Sanmatar and Catie seem to have spent together. A lot of the Amarr pilots get all sorts of irate when I point out how popular the Brutor bad-boys are with all those proper Amarr noblewomen in the holos. Shak-man gotta keep his girl in line, you know?
Now there's a solution with interesting implications. Where'd the author of the Interstellar Intrigue books go? |
Mitara Newelle
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
593
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 14:05:25 -
[44] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Maybe it is of some consolation to you then that they have been nothing but predictable for almost ten years now.
You say that as if ten years is significant. How incredibly short sighted. No wonder your kind could barely mount a defense when we found you.
Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade
Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3484
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 14:09:34 -
[45] - Quote
Mitara Newelle wrote:
You say that as if ten years is significant. How incredibly short sighted. No wonder your kind could barely mount a defense when we found you.
You know, proudly crowing about how easy it was to pacify a few planets of people who hadn't known war in centuries isn't exactly the best way to hold yourselves up as the 'not a bunch of bloodthirsty savages' in this equation. Clearly, we're not the ones with a congenital difficulty in seeking peaceful coexistence with our neighbors. |
Sinti Vailatti
Angelis Exploration
270
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 14:14:13 -
[46] - Quote
Mitara Newelle wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Maybe it is of some consolation to you then that they have been nothing but predictable for almost ten years now.
You say that as if ten years is significant. How incredibly short sighted. No wonder your kind could barely mount a defense when we found you.
Mitara? Same thing as Gaven.
The opinion of a Holder here is worth about as much as a pile of dead Fedos. Save the snark for a time and place where you're attempts at clever matter.
Maybe you could spend your time doing something constructive? Like knitting? Or finding Jamyl's corpse?
GÇ£Where must we go...we who wander this wasteland, in search of our better selves?GÇ¥
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
876
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 14:22:43 -
[47] - Quote
Mitara Newelle wrote:You say that as if ten years is significant.
That's actually not what I implied at all.
But nice try anyway. |
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
599
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 15:13:23 -
[48] - Quote
Hmm, interesting. The idea thar the Usurpers have been predictable suggests that you consider Colelie to have been predictable.
One factor regarding the Midular assassination and Colelie that demonstrates my point about the Toy War is that both events took place after a sustained period of Matari dominance in the warzone. It seems unlikely that the Usurpers would have been so willing to spend political capital like water to remove an already mostly neutralized domestic foe if they had not been riding high in the tides of the war. You are absolutely right that the war alone will almost certainly never be the sole issue that brings them down, but by fighting in the war you are spending your lives and treasure to supply political capital to the Usurpers that insulates them from domestic shocks and gives them options. EMs effect on the war is relatively tiny, but tiny sums add up.
Also Lady Admiral Newelle and I almost certainly do not entirely agree on these issues. I did mention that Amarr has its hawks.
Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade
Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family
|
Ayallah
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
911
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 16:09:29 -
[49] - Quote
I think all of your place far too much value on the influence the CEWPA conflict has on the cutures, finances, and policies of the big four.
Perhaps you are being hopeful.
As strength goes.
|
Ayallah
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
911
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 16:15:53 -
[50] - Quote
Challis Drant wrote:He does not have to do anything - he can sit there and claim that the threat of the Amarr is the reason he acts, and while that threat hangs over our head we cannot go forward. He can enact any legislation or give any decree and as long as he claims it is for the protection of the Republic You seem to have no understanding of his place in the Tribal Republic. He cannot act legislation or decree on anything, he has no vote and may only resolve disagreements.
The idea that he is the only or even the most aware of the threat of the Empire in the Tribal Order or even on the Tribal Council itself is inane and laughable.
As strength goes.
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
877
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 16:33:25 -
[51] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:You seem to have no understanding of his place in the Tribal Republic. He cannot act legislation or decree on anything, he has no vote and may only resolve disagreements.
And you seem to have no idea how power and influence actually work.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3487
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 16:41:46 -
[52] - Quote
No no, Ayallah knows everything, and can't ever be wrong. Just ask her. |
Ioannis Sepphiros
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 16:51:18 -
[53] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:[quote=Ioannis Sepphiros]
Those that matter/are in the thick of it should step up and be beacons of hope and unity Captain Rhiannon, I dont harbor such false notions about myself nor I could contribute in a fundamental manner given my youth as a capsuleer within this topic. I can only state what I would like to see from a personal viewpoint and thats as far as I can go about this given how I would be disrespectful to the rest before me that have done so much about the Republic, each to his/her own capacity and will.
A question on this: precisely who are you referring to when you say 'those that matter are in the thick of it'?
Those capsuleers that matter and or are in the thick of helping the Republic to grow.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3488
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 17:22:36 -
[54] - Quote
Ioannis Sepphiros wrote:
Those capsuleers that matter and or are in the thick of helping the Republic to grow.
And how does someone with the University of Caille determine which capsuleers matter? |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
878
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 18:14:58 -
[55] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:Hmm, interesting. The idea thar the Usurpers have been predictable suggests that you consider Colelie to have been predictable.
Not the exact events, no.
But you seem to follow my thinking on that already, so maybe nothing more needs to be said on it.
I'd rather not talk about Colelie, anyway.
|
Ioannis Sepphiros
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 18:21:49 -
[56] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Ioannis Sepphiros wrote:
Those capsuleers that matter and or are in the thick of helping the Republic to grow.
And how does someone with the University of Caille determine which capsuleers matter?
I must admit I dont follow your point at asking this.. Are you asking of what are my personal standards for the point I raised? or you mean something different by it? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3491
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 18:33:17 -
[57] - Quote
Ioannis Sepphiros wrote:
I must admit I dont follow your point at asking this.. Are you asking of what are my personal standards for the point I raised? or you mean something different by it?
I mean, you seem to be establishing a criterion for who should and shouldn't have a say in how our people attempt to move forward, resolve ancient grievances, and secure freedom for the rest of our people. And I'm just a bit curious as to a)how you think you're in a position to evaluate that criterion, and b)why that decision should be up to anyone but us. |
Ioannis Sepphiros
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 18:53:41 -
[58] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Ioannis Sepphiros wrote:
I must admit I dont follow your point at asking this.. Are you asking of what are my personal standards for the point I raised? or you mean something different by it?
I mean, you seem to be establishing a criterion for who should and shouldn't have a say in how our people attempt to move forward, resolve ancient grievances, and secure freedom for the rest of our people. And I'm just a bit curious as to a)how you think you're in a position to evaluate that criterion, and b)why that decision should be up to anyone but us.
Regarding point (A) I believe you are far from the mark of what I stated. I will encourage you to give some reading on what I said. I will simply assume that there has been some mixup due to how things may seem by text and will say that if anything gave you that impression, its a wrong one.
The only entertainment I will provide at this is that any criterion I may have is the one equivalently granted to anyone under a democratic regime despite where one has held his studies. What you imply with what you state is, again, way off the mark of my so far rhetoric.
Regarding point (B) I will simply elaborate that no decision belongs to anyone but only to everyone following the laws of the Republic and the power that is granted by those laws. And us are part of the decisionmaking one way or another as well, since we all are to a degree affected by those laws or may place pressure on those laws.
So elaborate more on point B if you may please, in case you think I havent understood what you meant by it but really I believe that my personal opinions on any matter that goes beyond the scope of what Captain Rhiannon has raised, would actually derail this thread and its something that I dont believe you would want to do so either.
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Victoria Grey
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
60
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Posted - 2017.05.09 20:50:36 -
[59] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Victoria Grey wrote:What can we really do? Unify and Discuss. So really a merging of all three options. This isn't a solution so much as a first step to a resolution. I have no say in anything that the various Matari aligned corps and alliances want but from my viewpoint, why not combine efforts of both Electus Matari and Ushra'Khan?
I know that I may not be addressing the right people to suggest this but my honest opinion is the same as someone else on this thread: We need someone(s) influential/in the thick of things to come forward. Combine their efforts to do what? Which way is forward? I'm sorry if I am contrary and keep on coming back to this - but it is really at the heart of the issue. Combined forces doing ineffective things is just two times zero.
Agreed. I one hundred percent agree with you. Which is why I think that the two, maybe even three Alliances should come together, form a coalition and find another avenue for furthering the Matari ways and Republic Support.
It seems to me that the Toy War is absolutely ineffectual and is more a ploy to keep Capsuleers busy. Solution? Don't let it distract us. Mostly pull out. There will always be others defending the line and if the Republic actual cares two licks about the Toy War at all they'll add more Republic support for it. It may turn out that the Toy War is actually important but I really doubt it.
What I think would be a good avenue for solution? Make like... and I can't believe I'm saying this... but look at P.I.E. Sure they fight in the Toy War but them and the greater C.V.A. seem to be flourishing in space of their own. Strike out at Low and null sec housings of the Amarrian Loyalists who undoubtedly use the power and influence to strengthen and support the Slavers back in their home territories. All while Matari Loyalists are stuck in the toy War going no where.
Is this the right avenue? I don't know know, it might be a start. My point is that the first thing that needs to happen is for the powerhouses of -EM- and U'K to start talks on working together and from there a direction.
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
I don't know what is the matter with people. I have said, repeatedly, that I do not think a solution exists. Yet some keep on asking me one, and others criticizing me of believing in silver bullets.
I am also not looking to go back to what we were. First, what has happened is part of our living tradition now, and you cannot just pretend it never happened - and second, it's not like we did not have problems those days too.
No, with "solution" I mean pretty much anything that is possible and does not mean the end of us as a free people.
I believe there are things that are possible. Things better at least than the stagnation. I posit at least a dialogue be opened up between interested parties.
Can this be done and how can my crew and I help? |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation
Mercenary Coalition
1638
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Posted - 2017.05.09 20:55:20 -
[60] - Quote
Could always go plonk down some Citadels in Great Wildlands and try to make something of the region like Provi did. Electus Matari has some industrial experience, so taking advantage of the region's resources and building it up to support the Tribes in the years to come would be a worthwhile endeavor. |
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