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Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
833
   |
Posted - 2017.05.08 13:53:13 -
[1] - Quote
A history lesson follows.
Some of the people here might still remember how ten years ago, there was fighting in The Bleak Lands [1], threatening to push is into a hot war with the Amarr Empire. The Republic eventually caught the trouble maker Karishal Muritor [2] and the war fizzled. Plenty of capsuleers then and today place Karishal's blood on Karin Midular's hands. It is less remembered today that it was also Malaetu Shakor that spoke against the escalation of the war by the traitor Karishal Muritor [3].
When it was found out that Karin Midular had been in talks with the Ammatar tribe to bring them to the fold, there was a huge outcry [4]. The terrorist group Bloody Hands of Matar worked against this, and pretty much succeeded for a while [5].
When we found out about the existence of the Starkmanir [6, 7], it was Karin Midular's appointed ambassador [8] who knew of the Elder Fleet and enough of the situation to make threats to OCNCORD [9]. It was still her Fleet, when we let it pass through our territory unharmed [10]
Yet it was Malaetu Shakor - who had himself spoken against open war in the Bleak Lands only a year earlier remember - who ceased that historical moment to advance his own agenda and call the achievements of her government "appeasement"
[11].
When Karin Midular dissolved the parliament to advance the goals of the tribes, riots broke out and she was - rightfully, mind you - called on it [12]. Yet when the same parliament was murdered by the Thukker without trial for being corrupt [13], people were quick to support the calls for Malaetu Shakor to replace it [14].
And so, when it is all already done, he returned and played the part of the savior [15]. And there was much rejoicing [16] and a remarkable lack of mention of how you can end up murdered in a purge if you disagree in the parliament. It does not take much to win an election when you are the only candidate [
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
833
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 13:53:21 -
[2] - Quote
(reserved)(contGÇÖd)
There is much speecifying and some incredibly wonderful poll numbers [23] and military posturing [24].
(Meanwhile, Sebiestor tribe members again save the Starkmanir, while ShakorGÇÖs council is busy talking [24]. No one pays much attention.)
Then, quite suddenly, a lone gunman attacks a congress where the Sebiestor tribal chief, former Prime Minister Karin Midular happens to be on stage [25]. RSS makes quick action to recover the shooter [26]. The Republic also makes quick requests to have Karin Midular in their hands, dismissing or trying to dismiss offers of medical aid by both the Federation [27] and The State [28]. She dies [29]. The Minmatar government is so keen to recover the shooter that they almost start a shooting war with the Federation over it [30]. They finally get what they want, and the shooter is quickly and effectively silenced forever [31].
Karin Midular is replaced on the tribal council by Acassa Midular, a known GÇ£sharp critic of the old parliamentary systemGÇ¥ [32.
Five years pass. The toy war comes and goes.
The silence grows so loud it hurts my ears. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation
Mercenary Coalition
1626
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 14:09:16 -
[3] - Quote
This is why I genuinely love having you back in the void, Ell. Someone to commiserate with about the state of affairs, while occasionally locking horns with. It's frankly heartening to have someone on your side of the spectrum in that regard, because that means that no matter which one of us ends up being in the wrong, there's someone on the other side that can say they stood for what ended up being right.
That said, I'm curious. You've spent a lot of time talking about our recent history and - right or wrong, that was quite a bit of personal opinion injected along with the facts - lambasting both those events and the current status, but you haven't spoken much about the path forwards. What do you see being the right path to walk for the Tribes? What is your solution to the grievances you have? |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
838
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 14:20:41 -
[4] - Quote
I don't have one, Miz.
That is the problem.
It's a war of attrition and we've lost. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation
Mercenary Coalition
1626
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 14:25:40 -
[5] - Quote
Then the question becomes, what are you going to do about that? Nothing? Something? |
KillJoy Tseng
Icecream Audit Office
Electus Matari
4
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 14:45:19 -
[6] - Quote
We're a bunch of unelected pilots with little to no Tribal or other political representation... we're perfectly able to destroy things on a tactical level (toy wars, etc) but the levers of power are moved with or without us.
Probably this isn't the best venue for discussion of solutions, if any can exist, which is up for debate itself. But at least setting down a relatively consistent set of facts is rather more transparent than some other discussions about this kind of thing have been. |
Ioannis Sepphiros
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 15:08:19 -
[7] - Quote
KillJoy Tseng wrote:We're a bunch of unelected pilots with little to no Tribal or other political representation... we're perfectly able to destroy things on a tactical level (toy wars, etc) but the levers of power are moved with or without us.
Probably this isn't the best venue for discussion of solutions, if any can exist, which is up for debate itself. But at least setting down a relatively consistent set of facts is rather more transparent than some other discussions about this kind of thing have been.
At the https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6921446#post6921446 I had asked for a debate, on similar topics raised by Captain Rhiannon. I think we should try and make that happen. Or given how I am a nobody amongst capsuleers, those who matter should.(thats my opinion at least)
I will disagree with you friend that since we all are unelected pilots we have little swing and say. Changes require time and effort, and usually happen slowly but surely. The first step is to organize and adress the issues.
On topic area, I will congratulate Captain Rhiannon on this very well established post. I am certain more will follow. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
844
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 15:23:36 -
[8] - Quote
See, this is how these discussions tend to go:
Else: "... and that's why we have a problem."
Someone: "I agree. What's your plan?"
Else: "I don't have a plan. I think we've lost already."
Someone: "But what are you going to do about it?"
Else: "... gods and spirits."
Here are things that have been suggested:
1) Assasinate the traitor on top.
Prohibitively difficult to achieve. Results uncertain.
2) Start a civil war.
Would invite an Amarr invasion, so untenable at this point.
3) Fight the toy war, keep your head down. and hope for the best.
The Ushra'Khan way.
4) Ignore the unpleasantness, keep your head down, and keep on building and preparing in the Republic. Use toy war for practice.
The Electus Matari way.
5) Go somewhere else where there are explosions to be had and eff it all until someone else comes up with a plan.
Plenty of people do this, too. Personally appealing but not helpful.
6) Have a political debates and otherwise keep on talking about it, because capsuleers can somewhat safely voice objections that baseliners might be unable to.
Talk is cheap. |
Ioannis Sepphiros
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 15:33:06 -
[9] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:See, this is how these discussions tend to go:
Else: "... and that's why we have a problem."
Someone: "I agree. What's your plan?"
Else: "I don't have a plan. I think we've lost already."
Someone: "But what are you going to do about it?"
Else: "... gods and spirits."
Here are some things that have been suggested:
1) Assasinate the traitor on top.
Prohibitively difficult to achieve. Results uncertain.
2) Start a civil war.
Would invite an Amarr invasion, so untenable at this point.
3) Fight the toy war, keep your head down. and hope for the best.
The Ushra'Khan way.
4) Ignore the unpleasantness, keep your head down, and keep on building and preparing in the Republic. Use toy war for practice.
The Electus Matari way.
5) Go somewhere else where there are explosions and/or riches to be had, keep your head down, and eff it all until someone else comes up with a plan.
Plenty of people do this, too. Personally appealing but not helpful.
6) Have a political debates and otherwise keep on talking about it, because capsuleers can somewhat safely voice objections that baseliners might be unable to.
Talk is cheap and I have plenty of it in stock. Risks for baseline kin are obvious, however.
As with anything in life, actions and talk is what one makes out of it. Maybe its time for different kind of discussions and different set of actions? If none of the above have been suggested and didnt work then either executing on them was wrong or they are fundamentally wrong. Which in any case would require a new set of thinking but most importantly executing on that thought.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
844
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 15:34:54 -
[10] - Quote
Ioannis Sepphiros wrote:As with anything in life, actions and talk is what one makes out of it. Maybe its time for different kind of discussions and different set of actions? If none of the above have been suggested and didnt work then either executing on them was wrong or they are fundamentally wrong. Which in any case would require a new set of thinking but most importantly executing on that thought.
Please, go on.
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Ayallah
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
906
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 15:44:01 -
[11] - Quote
You should write drifter conspiracies.
Endlessly trying to convince people with no say that the Tribal government that is not violently protested against, grows the Republic's economy, has dropped the crime rate, reduced corruption, and improved security is bad takes a real talent for omission and re-direction. Karin Midular literally dissolving the entire governing body of the First Republic when a vote of no confidence in her position as prime minister removed her from power was not the act of an authoritarian but the act of someone who truly was acting with the best interest of the Tribes at heart.
The Sanmatar returning all Tribes and overseeing the creation of a new Tribal order with the chief's at its head and then stepping back into the historic position of mediator he was elected into is obviously the dangerous first (second?) move of a dictator. He could have just kept all power like he had for years while he worked to that goal but then people would not like him.
The Sanmatar in your world must be the most brilliant dictator of all time. I do not know how he ever has time to actually mediate dispute in the Tribal Council or appear in public when he is so busy organizing everything from the bombing of empty theatres to the assassination of The Ray of Matar.
And I love how now the Elder Fleet was all attributed to Midular as well. That certainly is a strong reversal of the last few years of insisting that Shakor secretly funneled funds away to create it and use it to overthrow the First Republic. When she released a statement saying "we do not know who they are" at their appearance in Yulai she was just pretending then? When her office stated "Under no conceivable circumstances would Premier Midular authorize or endorse any threat against CONCORD" and that there would be "Very serious implications for Mr. Yun" (if he was involved) and you say it was her fleet??
Senior councilman Amrisar resigned because Karin Midular had "pulled the strings so long she had forgotten about political process." The number of Matari leaving her Republic for the Federation increased seven-fold under her stagnating economy with unemployment and crime rising and under Shakor more have moved to the Republic from the Federation than the inverse. Violence among the Tribes was at its highest during her reign. Muritor, the theft of the Alfhild, the One ISK protests, the Bloody Hands, the bombing of Egbonbet, [b]Skarkon[b] (when she threw Yun out of parliment), her slow response to Jarizza, ...all you gloss over in your effort to blame Shakor for her death. You paint the purge of the First Republic as an act of power consolidation and ignore the evidence of their corruption and connections to the Sanist Karsoth. You ignore it was Karin Midular herself that called for the vote that elected Shakor as Prime Minister and the wave of support that named him Sanmatar.
I enjoy also how you twisted events to pretend that medical aid was refused when she was not transported because she was in Federal medical care and could not be moved for fear of her life. It was not until Federal doctors stated that moving her would cause her no harm that she was brought to Pator but in your mind it must have been what killed her and all some plot by the Sanmatar. Regardless of the fact she was in the care of theSebiestor Tribe.
You say the shooter was silenced forever and forget that it was YOUR tribe which did so. He was not tried by Shakor or the Brutor but by the Sebiestor Tribal Court so how does that fit into your conspiracy? Is the Sanmatar still such a fantastic dictator that your Tribe's highest court are also his puppets Elsebeth? His execution under Sebiestor law is somehow now a method to silence an agent of Shakor?
You go against the wishes of your own chief and disgrace Karin Midular, the Sanmatar, and the Republic with your insane theories. Her legacy was meant to be that of the Ray of Matar who struggled against a broken system to find peace, a legacy of Tribal autonomy being paramount in the Republic.
Instead you wish her legacy to be that of a helpless fool who was assassinated by her enemies. Perhaps the silence that deafens you is the disgust of your fellow Tribesman. But I am sure this conspiracy will live on in the hearts of ignorant capsuleers and backwater clans for all time.
As strength goes.
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Ioannis Sepphiros
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 15:54:51 -
[12] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Ioannis Sepphiros wrote:As with anything in life, actions and talk is what one makes out of it. Maybe its time for different kind of discussions and different set of actions? If none of the above have been suggested and didnt work then either executing on them was wrong or they are fundamentally wrong. Which in any case would require a new set of thinking but most importantly executing on that thought. Please, go on.
There isnt something more to go on given the topic area/place and the aim of the post besides stating that evidently factionalism isnt the way to go at this.
Those that matter/are in the thick of it should step up and be beacons of hope and unity Captain Rhiannon, I dont harbor such false notions about myself nor I could contribute in a fundamental manner given my youth as a capsuleer within this topic. I can only state what I would like to see from a personal viewpoint and thats as far as I can go about this given how I would be disrespectful to the rest before me that have done so much about the Republic, each to his/her own capacity and will.
The Republic has made some progress, you present its not enough, I agree as there is always a room for improvement. For these things, none can go about it alone. Not individually but also not on a tribal level as well.
Hope, unity and pragmatism Captain that are the tools I can only think of. No civil wars, no assasinations, not going away and so on. Just hope, unity and pragmatism.
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Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
2438
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 16:02:54 -
[13] - Quote
Careful there Ayallah. Elsebeth may be a lot of things but a member of the tinfoil hat squad ain't one of them.
Every point Else made in her original post was backed up by documented facts. You're attacking her personally based on your own well-known biases and your tribal allegiances.
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
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Ayallah
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
906
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 16:15:40 -
[14] - Quote
I have no allegiance to a Tribe and everything I said is also factual. I may be biased as the actions of the Elder Fleet lead me to where I am now but that fleet was destroyed. Or maybe you think I am like some Amarrians who rejoiced over the death of the Ray Of Matar. You and I spoke often in the Standing Place when it happened so you know that is not true.
Later I will make pretty links like hers but it will not convince anyone. Those who believe that the First Republic was destroyed by Shakor to create a dictatorship and that Karin Midular was assassinated will continue to do so. Those who do not care will continue to do so. The Bias is in the Sebiestor who continually spread this conspiracy despite all evidence, despite the findings and actions of their own Tribe and Chief.
It has been years of this same debate and still no evidence to support the conspiracy Anabella. Only this time she changed the words and said that the Elder Fleet was "her's" and that Shakor or whomever refused treatment from Federal doctors. Those are both outright lies and completely verifiable by anyone who has access to the scope archives.
I did not attack her personally, I attacked this ridiculous idea that will not die. That will not let The Ray Of Matar rest or let a large portion of the Matari Capsuleer population to see the good in their new Tribal Government and instead constantly doomsay about a dictator who never appeared. This constant movement of nostalgia to pretend that everything was good under the First Republic and everything is bad under the Tribal Republic is what I am attacking. I argued with Avalynkaa until she would not speak to me for a month over this same thing Anabella, I can have respect for someone and still call their theory conspiracy and ridiculous. This is no different ..but thank you none the less for the warning given in good faith.
I know that the Sebiestor capsuleer population are not far from this thread to insult me endlessly, attack me directly, and address nothing of what I said, but I am not swayed from speaking the truth.
As strength goes.
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Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation
Mercenary Coalition
1626
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 16:26:16 -
[15] - Quote
I have to grudgingly admit that for once, Ayallah isn't just blowing hot air. Don't get me wrong, there's quite a bit of it but no more conjecture and assumption than in Ell's post. Whichever one holds closest to the truth is up for debate, but when that blowhard actually manages to rub those two braincells together for something else than stroking her ego I'd rather not discourage it.
And Elsebeth, when you start topics like these - heavily laced with your personal complaints and biases about the past - it should not come as a surprise when people ask what your plans are, or your motives for putting this sort of effort public. Is it just here to foment dissent? To inspire action, and if so what action? Tinfoil manufacture and distribution stock manipulation?
When there isn't even broad agreement that the problem you lay forth even exists, there's bound to be questions. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
9759
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 16:30:43 -
[16] - Quote
As an uninvolved party, I will make no comment as to the politics of any of the Matari in this thread. It's not my place, nor my area of expertise.
I would like to speak in support, though, is Ms. Rhiannon's fantastically cited initial posting. For those of us on the outside, it provides a fascinating contextualization of internal Republic politics that we'd not normally be witness to.
Thank you!
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
855
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 16:46:36 -
[17] - Quote
Now there's some noise and fire! From a pirate, granted, but at this point I'll take anything.
A couple of corrections.
1) I said that the outrage against Karin Midular dissolving the parliament was justified. My critique is about the fact that if dismissing those who disagree causes such an outrage, why does not murder without trial?
2) I did not mean to imply the Elder Fleet was Karin's doing alone. I said it was "hers", as in, what happened was still during her government. Also, "plausible deniability". Look it up.
3) I do not think I have ever criticized the Republic or the tribes secretly stockpiling military resources. I admit my memory is spotty - reclonings do that - but since the whole point of my politics have always been maintaining peace as a way to prepare for war, that would go contrary to what I have been.
4) You are trying to make this an issue between the tribes. I did not mention the Brutor tribe once in my original post. You are so blinded by your Sanmatar's tribal rhetoric that you think this is about tribal politics. It is not. The story is much uglier.
5) I said the current government attempted to stop Federal medical care. Yes, they failed. Sadly it was not enough.
6) You say we are becoming more prosperous. You base that on exactly nothing. Do the math: the Empire and the Republic are pouring the same amount, roughly, of resources to the toy war. We are much, much smaller (look at a map). Even if we go forward, in absolutete terms, it is not enough, if we lose, proportionally.
7) Our people increasingly turn to foreign cults [1]. So much for newly revived tribal traditions.
8) I don't actually consider Sanmatar Shakor a very good dictator. I am not sure if he is even a dictator at this point anymore or just a poser. My impression is intelligent and capable, but he worked only as long as he could comfortably establish himself, and since then has done pretty much exactly nothing, letting his cronies do the work, such as there is [2].
Ioannis Sepphiros wrote:words
In other words, you are saying, "please you come up with a plan and execute it". Which part of "I do not know how to fix this" was unclear?
Ayallah wrote:Those who believe that the First Republic was destroyed by Shakor to create a dictatorship and that Karin Midular was assassinated will continue to do so. Those who do not care will continue to do so.
This is a very telling slip of tongue with phrasing. Even in your mind, there are those who realize the situation and those who do not care. |
Ioannis Sepphiros
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 16:57:06 -
[18] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:In other words, you are saying, "please you come up with a plan and execute it". Which part of "I do not know how to fix this" was unclear?
I didnt say anything of that sorts. In fact to be even more precise I never really called on you to provide with any plans in the first place.
I was rather clear on what I did say however.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3461
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 17:04:49 -
[19] - Quote
I may enjoy trolling the feck out of Ayallah there (and she may never seem to get that I'm trolling her, and always take the bait), but I do have to agree with her position on the Sanmatar and the Tribal Council. If this is a dictatorship, it is possibly the best-concealed dictatorship in the history of New Eden. And really, if Shakor is that good at politics, intrigue, and manipulating the media and public awareness? Then he's probably exactly the dictator needed to keep the Empire from knowing anything, ever.
That doesn't mean I don't agree with your larger position regarding the military situation between the Empire and the Republic, though. I also tend to agree with Miz, though, on the inevitability of the question: Ok, so now what?
I don't know that I've got an answer, either. I think there's broad agreement on principals... the security of the Tribes, freedom fro our people, etc, but how we go about getting that...
If I thought we could achieve anything more than killing off every Matari willing to fight and leaving the next generation in chains, I'd say the cleanest, fastest, most direct option is the best. But I think that is all we'd achieve, and I think the enslavement of the rest of our people is too high a price to pay for a futile gesture that gains us nothing except a brief lessening of the frustration that comes with inaction.
The political pressure we can exert is... negligible. What pressure the Republic can bring to bear, it already has, both politicla and economic. I'm not sure we've got a stick big enough for the Emipre to fear it, and I don't know what kind of carrot could even begin to work on a population that's been carefully indoctrinated in insanity for a thousand years.
Anyone got any ideas? |
Sinti Vailatti
Angelis Exploration
269
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 17:12:55 -
[20] - Quote
Ok...
So there's like, a lot of ground to cover in this thread. And some points of history I've been on the wrong side of. But there were a few things I wanted to point out. Kind of a..more objective opinion?
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
1) Assassinate the traitor on top.
Prohibitively difficult to achieve. Results uncertain.
2) Start a civil war.
Would invite an Amarr invasion, so untenable at this point.
3) Fight the toy war, keep your head down. and hope for the best.
The Ushra'Khan way.
4) Ignore the unpleasantness, keep your head down, and keep on building and preparing in the Republic. (Use toy war for practice.)
The Electus Matari way.
5) Go somewhere else where there are explosions and/or riches to be had, keep your head down, and eff it all until someone else comes up with a plan.
Personally appealing but not helpful.
6) Have political debates and otherwise keep on talking about it, because capsuleers can somewhat safely voice objections that baseliners might be unable to.
Talk is cheap and I have plenty of it in stock. Risks for baseline kin are obvious, however. Also see point no 2.
1. Easier to achieve than you might think. Results might make him a martyr, but would probably just do nothing because one of his cronies would just step in and nothing would change.
2. I've heard this one a lot over the years. And you know what? It's wrong. The Republic has used the Amarr bogyman as a means to control Matari for far too long. Amarr has a lot of enemies. Going to war with us might be the worst thing they could do. And say what you will about CONCORD and the Gallente, but they would not allow Amarr to actually invade. They might lock down control of the Bleaks, but they'd never be able to win an actual war against all Republic space.
3. The U'K way is attractive and romantic and good for sharpening combat skills. But it's a waste of time and resources. This is the bad part of CONCORD. They keep us so tied up in this that we can't take care of things that deserve more attention.
4. Sorry to be blunt...but this is slave mentality. I know this from personal experience. You just do the work and hope things will change...but it never really does. You gotta be an agent of change.
5. Space is big. Really big. A while back a bunch of Matari got tired of the crap and moved out and made a nice little home. They invited others from around the galaxy to move in and party. So yeah, living in Heaven isn't always paradise, but it's a lot more liberating.
6. This. This we can do and do a lot. This used to be a thing here and it isn't as much as it was. Republican Tribals, Ammantar, Angels, Thukkers, Wormholers, NullSeccers and Amarrians....those of Matar are still Matari. We used to talk a lot. And it often got loud. I think maybe it's time for us be noisy again?
GÇ£Where must we go...we who wander this wasteland, in search of our better selves?GÇ¥
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
857
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 17:13:28 -
[21] - Quote
Miz;
You want to know why I talk now, even though I have no solutions, no way forward.
I speak now, because the silence has grown unbearable. I have held my tongue for years, but I cannot anymore. I cannot pretend the Parliament murders never happened. I cannot pretend an election with a single candidate and a record-low turnout is legitimate. I cannot pretend attacks on people who peacefully protest through art do not happen.
I speak now, because I have grown to believe it does not matter anymore. I never said a word when I believed we could still buy time with silence, when I still believed Shakor had a plan, even if a risky one. I was ready to fight a war - remember? We all were. In unity, even if desperately. But the war never came, and now it grows late.
And I speak now, because carrying this alone became too lonely. I might not know the solution. But maybe someone does who hears my words. Or maybe the government wakes up, hearing them, and we will fight our war. We might be going down, in flames or slowly crumbling. But at least I am not going down silent and alone. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation
Mercenary Coalition
1626
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 17:23:53 -
[22] - Quote
And there it is. Ell, I can give you no comforts but only one promise: Whether we succeed or go down in flames, you will not be alone. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3464
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 17:51:35 -
[23] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
1) I said that the outrage against Karin Midular dissolving the parliament was justified. My critique is about the fact that if dismissing those who disagree causes such an outrage, why does not murder without trial?
I was at PTS for these events, not out in a pod, so my perspective may be a little different from those of people who were already a step removed from the mobs, so to speak. And... there's a couple of pretty obvious answers to this.
When Midular dissolved the parliament, there was already a fair degree of civil unrest. I know we were seeing protests about the Starkmanir situaion on-station pretty consistently, and according to the news feeds, they weren't isolated at all. When parliament was dissolved, that just added a huge splash of 'oh crap what are we going to do there's all this unrest and now no central authority!' to the mix.
Now, you've cast it as "riots broke out" and Midular being taken to task for what she did, but from the baseliner perspective? The riots weren't a protest against the action. The riots were people who were already mobilized and protesting getting scared and losing their damned minds trying to secure whatever little bit of safety and 'I got mine, screw it!' they could. It was a pretty terrifying time all around. Nobody knew what was going on, nobody knew if RSS or the Fleet was going to be next...
I promise, people were not looting stores screaming 'IF THE PARLIAMENT ISN'T RESTORED, I'M GONNA KEEP STEALING CRAP'.
Now, when the attacks came... that wasn't 'Shakor orders bloody purge'. Nobody knew what was going on until well after it was over. And it was an attack. A violent, brutal attack. But it wasn't the entire parliament getting wiped out. It wasn't even a quorum of parliament killed. Only days later, Midular called for new elections. Midular and Yun togethercalled for the dissolution of the Gallente-style democracy..
And let me tell you, as a normal human being at Pator Tech School then? We were glad for it. All of the bickering, all of the dithering... put the Chiefs in a room and have them hash it out.
As for your critique of the younger Chief Midular... I notice you left off the second half of the description when implying she was part of a new, unified regime of Shakorian Dictatorship: "Acassa Midular served as clan chief for the Midular for 12 years and is known to have been a sharp critic of both the old parliamentary system and the transitional regime of Sanmatar Maleatu Shakor."
And yes, some violent nutjobs attacked a theater because they thought people were mocking the new leader. That's what violent, frightened people do: they lash out.
I know... believe me, I know, once you're out here in the goo, there's a lot of tendencies to see shadowy puppetmasters behind everything. I won't lie, my own organization does a lot to perpetuate that illusion. People have a tendency to wantp/i] to think there's a master plan at work, that somehow, all of this chaos is 'under control'.
It's not. And there's no disconnect between the two sets of events you point out less than a month apart in Parliament. The riots were not protesting the dissolution, they were protests about the Starkmanir losing all semblance of order in the panic of 'there's no government', and the murders soon after stunned us all into shocked numbness, only to see us rally behind the [i]unified voices of Karin Midular and Keitan Yun. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
861
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 17:56:16 -
[24] - Quote
So, let me get this straight: you are basically arguing that the demonstrations that were used to argua for and to pretty much force our hand to the "reform" were actually never about that?
Well, that fits. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3466
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 18:10:42 -
[25] - Quote
I'm saying the demonstrations about the inaction on the Starkmanir issue were about the inaction on the Starkmanir issue, and not as you've presented them, a response to the dissolution of Parliament.
Were they a call for reform? After a fashion. More a 'get off your butts and DO something', really. But you've presented them as protests about a thing that happened after the protests were underway, even according to your own citation.
Quote:When Karin Midular dissolved the parliament to advance the goals of the tribes, riots broke out and she was - rightfully, mind you - called on it [ 12] |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
861
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 18:16:35 -
[26] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:I'm saying the demonstrations about the inaction on the Starkmanir issue were about the inaction on the Starkmanir issue, and not as you've presented them, a response to the dissolution of Parliament.
Were they a call for reform? After a fashion. More a 'get off your butts and DO something', really. But you've presented them as protests about a thing that happened after the protests were underway, even according to your own citation.
I apologize for my less than accurate wording. I did not mean to imply that everything was just peachy until then; I meant to say that she was rightfully called on the dissolution decision. I, again, point to the fact that I am not criticizing anyone for protesting at that point. |
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
Sani-Sabik
2149
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 18:18:37 -
[27] - Quote
And this is why the Federation must be destroyed.
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
867
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 20:08:22 -
[28] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:And this is why the Federation must be destroyed.
The... what? |
Charles Cambridge Schmidt
The Scope
Gallente Federation
444
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 20:31:05 -
[29] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Valerie Valate wrote:And this is why the Federation must be destroyed. The... what?
Recent meme from our resident dim-witted Provist supporting terrorist poorly masquerading as an honorable soldier in the State Protectorate. Val's just trying to be funny.
I don't care what you think, as long as it's about me.
|
Challis Drant
Gradient
Electus Matari
17
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 20:37:43 -
[30] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:You should write drifter conspiracies.
The Sanmatar in your world must be the most brilliant dictator of all time. I do not know how he ever has time to actually mediate dispute in the Tribal Council or appear in public when he is so busy organizing everything from the bombing of empty theatres to the assassination of The Ray of Matar.
He does not have to do anything - he can sit there and claim that the threat of the Amarr is the reason he acts, and while that threat hangs over our head we cannot go forward. He can enact any legislation or give any decree and as long as he claims it is for the protection of the Republic - Those that would protest politically are silenced by the simple rebuttal - " Well how do we stop the Amarr from crossing our border if we even look like we are weak? "
Hells - those who could do something about the Amarr are busily fighting a toy war - pretending it makes a difference - nicely sidelined out of the way. How many times have we asked for military co-operation with the fleet, and how many times have they said yes.
Others have left the toy war to do other things with other corps for good or ill.
Sometimes I think that the so called toy war is perfect stagnation - whilst we have it - we cannot go forward and those in power are going to do all they can to make sure it never ends. No one in their right minds wants 3000 + capsuleers to suddenly have nothing better to do - for they know just how shallow their control is over pod pilots.
|
|
|
Victoria Grey
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
57
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 20:38:29 -
[31] - Quote
There is a lot here but before I dive deep into it, I must say that I deeply respect you Pilot Rhiannon for bringing this up. If I am correct here, the message here really is is that you are sick of the silence and inactivity and the "keeping your head down" mentality as you call it. And that, despite holding political views very nearly diametrically opposed to my own, is something I whole heartedly agree on.
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Here are some things that have been suggested:
...
3) Fight the toy war, keep your head down. and hope for the best.
The Ushra'Khan way.
4) Ignore the unpleasantness, keep your head down, and keep on building and preparing in the Republic. (Use toy war for practice.)
The Electus Matari way.
...
6) Have political debates and otherwise keep on talking about it, because capsuleers can somewhat safely voice objections that baseliners might be unable to.
Talk is cheap and I have plenty of it in stock. Risks for baseline kin are obvious, however. Also see point no 2.
I agree that action needs to be taken. I agree that there needs to be a solution besides the above (albeit curated) responses. I've said this before but the Toy War deeply troubles me in its ability to completely dismantle any action that we may take and it only further dilutes our own self image as brothers and sisters of Matar. I say this as one who once flew with Ushra'Khan as a proud member of Masuat'aa Matari. I left soon after they dived straight into the Toy War.
What can we really do? Unify and Discuss. So really a merging of all three options. This isn't a solution so much as a first step to a resolution. I have no say in anything that the various Matari aligned corps and alliances want but from my viewpoint, why not combine efforts of both Electus Matari and Ushra'Khan?
I know that I may not be addressing the right people to suggest this but my honest opinion is the same as someone else on this thread: We need someone(s) influential/in the thick of things to come forward. And that would be Electus Matari and Ushra'Khan. If neither of those organizations are willing to do something to do something, how can any of us individuals, especially those of us disillusioned with the Toy War?
Ioannis Sepphiros wrote:
...
Those that matter/are in the thick of it should step up and be beacons of hope and unity Captain Rhiannon, I dont harbor such false notions about myself nor I could contribute in a fundamental manner given my youth as a capsuleer within this topic. I can only state what I would like to see from a personal viewpoint and thats as far as I can go about this given how I would be disrespectful to the rest before me that have done so much about the Republic, each to his/her own capacity and will.
...
Hope, unity and pragmatism Captain that are the tools I can only think of. No civil wars, no assasinations, not going away and so on. Just hope, unity and pragmatism.
Pilot Sepphiros, you are who I was referring to above. I very much agree with everything you said.
Arrendis wrote:...
That doesn't mean I don't agree with your larger position regarding the military situation between the Empire and the Republic, though. I also tend to agree with Miz, though, on the inevitability of the question: Ok, so now what?
I don't know that I've got an answer, either. I think there's broad agreement on principals... the security of the Tribes, freedom fro our people, etc, but how we go about getting that...
...
Anyone got any ideas?
This, I believe is the heart of your topic.
Sinti Vailatti wrote:Ok...
...
3. The U'K way is attractive and romantic and good for sharpening combat skills. But it's a waste of time and resources. This is the bad part of CONCORD. They keep us so tied up in this that we can't take care of things that deserve more attention.
4. Sorry to be blunt...but this is slave mentality. I know this from personal experience. You just do the work and hope things will change...but it never really does. You gotta be an agent of change.
...
6. This. This we can do and do a lot. This used to be a thing here and it isn't as much as it was. Republican Tribals, Ammantar, Angels, Thukkers, Wormholers, NullSeccers and Amarrians....those of Matar are still Matari. We used to talk a lot. And it often got loud. I think maybe it's time for us be noisy again?
Again, another person I wholeheartedly agree with. Bolded the especially important bits.
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:And there it is. Ell, I can give you no comforts but only one promise: Whether we succeed or go down in flames, you will not be alone.
Another agree. Suggestions? Talk to Electus Matari leadership about further actions. See if a dialogue can be opened. Call for a summit between Electus Matari and U'K.
We are not devoid of options here and talking has a lot more power than you would think. |
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
Sani-Sabik
2154
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 20:47:34 -
[32] - Quote
Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote:Val's just trying to be funny.
I'm not trying very hard though.
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3472
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 22:08:23 -
[33] - Quote
Ioannis Sepphiros wrote:
Those that matter/are in the thick of it should step up and be beacons of hope and unity Captain Rhiannon, I dont harbor such false notions about myself nor I could contribute in a fundamental manner given my youth as a capsuleer within this topic. I can only state what I would like to see from a personal viewpoint and thats as far as I can go about this given how I would be disrespectful to the rest before me that have done so much about the Republic, each to his/her own capacity and will.
A question on this: precisely who are you referring to when you say 'those that matter are in the thick of it'?
Challis Drant wrote:Sometimes I think that the so called toy war is perfect stagnation - whilst we have it - we cannot go forward and those in power are going to do all they can to make sure it never ends. No one in their right minds wants 3000 + capsuleers to suddenly have nothing better to do - for they know just how shallow their control is over pod pilots.
Well, that is exactly what the Pendulum is designed to be, yes. |
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
593
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 04:30:38 -
[34] - Quote
The funny thing is that while the CEWPA war is an absolute dead end for the Matari State, it is a perfect source of power for the usurpers of the Republic. A constant state of crisis is a wonderful thing for a regime that lacks any legitimacy whatsoever.
The best hope the Matari have at this point is to start working in good faith for a lasting and sincere peace. Of course, the second that occurs, the current government is likely to be strung up by their own people, so the current government has no incentive to work towards peace. And for that matter, the current government would not be trusted (with good reason!) to be working in good faith. This means that they have to be removed for the Matari to survive as an independent state. If they stay in power, I expect it is only a matter of time before they do something (else) that is monumentally stupid. Whether that ends up being alienating the Federation or attempting another all or nothing invasion, or some other insanity, doesn't really matter so much as the fact that those actions strengthen the Amarr warhawk argument for outright invasion rather than the current situation of suppression.
The largest place in which I disagree with your analyses, obvious cultural differences aside, is that I cannot imagine a more surefire way to destroy the Matari State than opening a full scale war. Amarr has been at the forefront of technological innovation recently and our navy has more practical recent experience fighting large scale engagements than any of the others. The material cost of the Blood Raider War, Sansha's War, and the Drifter incursions has certainly been high, but we can afford those costs better than the other empires. More importantly, the combat experience that we have gained from those actions is invaluable. Those who survived the trials of the last decade are the most combat experienced of naval forces. When you combine that with our edge in resources and manpower, a full scale war with Amarr would only end with catastrophe for the Matari. You might hurt us quite a bit as you died, but you would not survive doing so, and you might strengthen the very aspects of Amarr society that you most despise.
So, if we accept the following statements: 1. The CEWPA war hurts the Matari more than the Amarr in relative terms. 2. Total war would almost certainly end in Matari destruction and 3. The usurpers have no domestic incentive to end the CEWPA war with a peace, then the only conclusion I can see is that the usurpers must be removed from power as soon as possible and a new regime that is not invested in a losing war must take their place.
This then raises the question of what conditions need to be in place for a change of government in the Republic to a rational government that is be willing to make the compromises needed to create a lasting peace. As you have mentioned, either a civil war or a simple assassination would be a poor idea if the goal is the survival of the republic. Such an event would strengthen the Amarr hawk factions and create a strong argument for a real invasion to end the threat to Amarr.
So that cannot be the answer. But they need to go. What mechanisms exist that could remove them from power?
One obvious one from my, admittedly foreign and hostile, perspective is the CEWPA war. So long as the Matari have occasional victories in the CEWPA war, the usurpers can spin those victories into domestic support. They can create the illusion that the CEWPA war can be sufficiently victorious that it actually ends up strengthening the Matari state. This will never happen, but the hope that it could keeps dissent down.
One question I would raise is "what happens if the Matari were unequivocally losing the CEWPA war?" The actual harm to the state would not be significantly higher than the current situation, the CEWPA war is pretty limited in that respect, but the political effect would be to remove the war as a support for the Usurpers. I would suggest that by fighting to help the Matari in the CEWPA war, you directly lower the probability of the survival of the Matari state in the future.
I'm sure there are other pillars to their power that are opaque to me from my position on the other side of the battle lines, and probably ones that are less problematic to deal with than the CEWPA war. But, whatever they are, they need to be removed one by one so that the usurpers lose their hold on the mechanism of the Matari state. This needs to happen relatively peacefully, and the new government needs to offer an olive branch to our new government. I do not see any other way to avoid catastrophe.
Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade
Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3480
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 05:11:43 -
[35] - Quote
Couple of problems with this.
First there's the claim that the Empire's been at the forefront of military technology, as though there hasn't been pretty much exact parity. In fact, in subcapital engagements (as the majority of the fighting would be), the Lif is a far superior choice when compared to the Apostle. The thing that keeps the Lif from being more or less the Force Auxiliary of choice in the crucible of capital warfare in nullsec is the Energy Transfer range.
In subcapital warfare, however, this is far less of a consideration, and the local repair capabilities and capacitor warfare resistance of the Lif, along with the ability to be configured to work with a fleet of armor- or shield-based subcapitals, make it a significantly more capable ship than the Apostle. And I say this as someone who owns and flies both.
Second, your assessment about 'what if the Matari were unequivocally losing the CEWPA war?' Well, we saw that for a number of years, beginning in late YC 114. It didn't seem to matter. At all. Now, I could draw the obvious 'the CEWPA doesn't matter. At all' conclusion, but I don't think that's accurate, either. I think that fighting as underdogs, fighting the hopeless conflict and being driven back, actually helps the situation from the viewpoint of many Matari loyalists and politicos.
Let's face it, we're used to being outnumbered and outgunned, and feeling like our backs are to the wall. Perpetuating that, in an environment where the Republic loyalists can't be eradicated? It's only going to harden resolve. The more interesting question would be: What if the Matari were to unequivocably win the CEWPA war? Not just 'get their medal' type win, but a long-term, sustained control of the entire warzone without Amarr capsuleer incursions to attempt to drive them back?
Losing just means there's more need to resist, to strike back.
What if we won, and there was no-one left to shoot? What happens then in an environment where the political red meat has focused on 'first the warzone, and then the rest', when 'the rest' can't even be considered, or CONCORD will shut them down?
Which brings up the third, and most elemental issue: The simple fact is no matter what course of regime change anyone attempts, there will be, there can be no lasting peace so long as the Empire holds Matari slaves. Until then... more bullets. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
874
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 05:36:36 -
[36] - Quote
Victoria Grey wrote:What can we really do? Unify and Discuss. So really a merging of all three options. This isn't a solution so much as a first step to a resolution. I have no say in anything that the various Matari aligned corps and alliances want but from my viewpoint, why not combine efforts of both Electus Matari and Ushra'Khan?
I know that I may not be addressing the right people to suggest this but my honest opinion is the same as someone else on this thread: We need someone(s) influential/in the thick of things to come forward.
Combine their efforts to do what? Which way is forward?
I'm sorry if I am contrary and keep on coming back to this - but it is really at the heart of the issue.
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:paraphrased: "I suggest you just pack up your toys and surrender"
Nice try.
It is by now a clearly established fact that if one side holds the complete field, exactly nothing happens.
We also have no way whatsoever to enforce a ban on fighting, so even moral and efficiency concerns aside, your suggestion is not practical.
Challis Drant wrote:Sometimes I think that the so called toy war is perfect stagnation
Yes. And there is the fact that at its time, the Militia Act was a somewhat clever move: it allowed us to de-escalate from a full-out war after the Elder Fleet's actions. It is just that it cannot remain a permanent solution. |
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
597
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 10:51:10 -
[37] - Quote
That is a remarkable misread of my analysis, Elsebeth. Some points:
1. Holding the complete field is strategically irrelevant. The only things that matter are relative cost to each state in the long term and the domestic political environment at any moment of defeat. It's simplistic to expect a single moment of defeat that was not accompanied by a domestic crisis to be enough to topple a government. My analysis office suggests that it would take several years without any moments of victory in the CEWPA war for the war on its own to topple the Usurpers. A more likely scenario is that a domestic crisis unrelated to the war in a moment at which the war looks grim could cause a failure cascade that topples the government, but such a thing would require a perfect storm.
2. You seem to be after a silver bullet that will reset the situation to before the usurpation. The Matari states problems are far too systemic for such a thing to occur. For the Usurpers to be replaced without a civil war will require a rather large set of conditions to be in place, most of which are domestic. You are not going to engineer a perfect solution, but the first step towards working towards those conditions is to refuse to do anything that strengthens the Usurpers.
3. You seem to be looking for the sting in anything I say. Reasonable enough, given history. Perhaps it will help if I elaborate on why I am interested in a solution to your problem that does not involve an Amarr invasion. As you probably correctly assume, I do not care in the slightest about what happens to the Matari state or its people. My concern is Amarr and the people it is my duty to protect, including Amarr of Matari descent. The Matari state under Usurper leadership is, however, remarkably unpredictable and as such is dangerous. It poses a low to nonexistent existential threat to Amarr, but if the Matari do something stupid the cost will still be high. It will also strengthen factions in Amarr that I consider dangerous for the prosperity of the people I defend. I wish to see this threat removed at the lowest cost to Amarr possible. Right now, the absolute best case scenario seems to rest on the hope that enough Matari will turn on the Usurpers to remove them from power. It is not the only solution, but it is the cheapest, for both sides.
Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade
Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
876
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 11:14:16 -
[38] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote: My analysis office suggests that it would take several years without any moments of victory in the CEWPA war for the war on its own to topple the Usurpers.
Your analysis office should advice you that this is completely unfeasible. There are always people willing to fight, and nothing to stop them. Even if everyone currently in space agreed to simply stop (which is implausible in itself), new captains will come from the academies every day with their eyes shining with the recruiter's promises of glory and isk.
Quote:You seem to be after a silver bullet that will reset the situation to before the usurpation.
I don't know what is the matter with people. I have said, repeatedly, that I do not think a solution exists. Yet some keep on asking me one, and others criticizing me of believing in silver bullets.
Quote:You seem to be looking for the sting in anything I say. Reasonable enough, given history. Perhaps it will help if I elaborate on why I am interested in a solution to your problem that does not involve an Amarr invasion.
Your concern for the safety of what you see as "your people" has never been in question or unclear in my eyes.
Quote:The Matari state under Usurper leadership is, however, remarkably unpredictable and as such is dangerous.
Maybe it is of some consolation to you then that they have been nothing but predictable for almost ten years now. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3481
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 11:46:09 -
[39] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
I am also not looking to go back to what we were. First, what has happened is part of our living tradition now, and you cannot just pretend it never happened - and second, it's not like we did not have problems those days too.
And a fair number of us, both non-capsuleers then, and capsuleers now, really would be fairly disgusted by the Republic trying to go back to Gallente-style mob rule. As the Ray of Matar said: we tried it. It wasn't for us.
Quote:Maybe it is of some consolation to you then that they have been nothing but predictable for almost ten years now.
Oh, I don't know. I don't think many people predicted Shakor turning up for the Empress' coronation.
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
876
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 12:02:13 -
[40] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Maybe it is of some consolation to you then that they have been nothing but predictable for almost ten years now. Oh, I don't know. I don't think many people predicted Shakor turning up for the Empress' coronation.
Ok, I give you that.
And also thanks for actually making me laugh. |
|
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3484
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 12:34:23 -
[41] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:And also thanks for actually making me laugh.
I'm generally not allowed to talk about how much time the Sanmatar and Catie seem to have spent together. A lot of the Amarr pilots get all sorts of irate when I point out how popular the Brutor bad-boys are with all those proper Amarr noblewomen in the holos. Shak-man gotta keep his girl in line, you know? |
Sinti Vailatti
Angelis Exploration
270
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 13:32:11 -
[42] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:Blah, blah, blah...
Gaven,
This isn't about you. I know you think you know all the answers when it comes to us, but you...especially you, don't get to come here and offer an opinion on what we should or shouldn't do.
You do understand why an Amarr loyalist's words aren't going to be entirely popular here, right?
We don't want or need the Empire to tell us what to do.
Maybe you should take care of your own space before the Drifters gank another Empress, m'kay? Leave Matari concerns to Matari.
GÇ£Where must we go...we who wander this wasteland, in search of our better selves?GÇ¥
|
KillJoy Tseng
Icecream Audit Office
Electus Matari
5
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 13:33:00 -
[43] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:And also thanks for actually making me laugh. I'm generally not allowed to talk about how much time the Sanmatar and Catie seem to have spent together. A lot of the Amarr pilots get all sorts of irate when I point out how popular the Brutor bad-boys are with all those proper Amarr noblewomen in the holos. Shak-man gotta keep his girl in line, you know?
Now there's a solution with interesting implications. Where'd the author of the Interstellar Intrigue books go? |
Mitara Newelle
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
593
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 14:05:25 -
[44] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Maybe it is of some consolation to you then that they have been nothing but predictable for almost ten years now.
You say that as if ten years is significant. How incredibly short sighted. No wonder your kind could barely mount a defense when we found you.
Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade
Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3484
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 14:09:34 -
[45] - Quote
Mitara Newelle wrote:
You say that as if ten years is significant. How incredibly short sighted. No wonder your kind could barely mount a defense when we found you.
You know, proudly crowing about how easy it was to pacify a few planets of people who hadn't known war in centuries isn't exactly the best way to hold yourselves up as the 'not a bunch of bloodthirsty savages' in this equation. Clearly, we're not the ones with a congenital difficulty in seeking peaceful coexistence with our neighbors. |
Sinti Vailatti
Angelis Exploration
270
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 14:14:13 -
[46] - Quote
Mitara Newelle wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Maybe it is of some consolation to you then that they have been nothing but predictable for almost ten years now.
You say that as if ten years is significant. How incredibly short sighted. No wonder your kind could barely mount a defense when we found you.
Mitara? Same thing as Gaven.
The opinion of a Holder here is worth about as much as a pile of dead Fedos. Save the snark for a time and place where you're attempts at clever matter.
Maybe you could spend your time doing something constructive? Like knitting? Or finding Jamyl's corpse?
GÇ£Where must we go...we who wander this wasteland, in search of our better selves?GÇ¥
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
876
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 14:22:43 -
[47] - Quote
Mitara Newelle wrote:You say that as if ten years is significant.
That's actually not what I implied at all.
But nice try anyway. |
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
599
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 15:13:23 -
[48] - Quote
Hmm, interesting. The idea thar the Usurpers have been predictable suggests that you consider Colelie to have been predictable.
One factor regarding the Midular assassination and Colelie that demonstrates my point about the Toy War is that both events took place after a sustained period of Matari dominance in the warzone. It seems unlikely that the Usurpers would have been so willing to spend political capital like water to remove an already mostly neutralized domestic foe if they had not been riding high in the tides of the war. You are absolutely right that the war alone will almost certainly never be the sole issue that brings them down, but by fighting in the war you are spending your lives and treasure to supply political capital to the Usurpers that insulates them from domestic shocks and gives them options. EMs effect on the war is relatively tiny, but tiny sums add up.
Also Lady Admiral Newelle and I almost certainly do not entirely agree on these issues. I did mention that Amarr has its hawks.
Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade
Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family
|
Ayallah
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
911
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 16:09:29 -
[49] - Quote
I think all of your place far too much value on the influence the CEWPA conflict has on the cutures, finances, and policies of the big four.
Perhaps you are being hopeful.
As strength goes.
|
Ayallah
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
911
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 16:15:53 -
[50] - Quote
Challis Drant wrote:He does not have to do anything - he can sit there and claim that the threat of the Amarr is the reason he acts, and while that threat hangs over our head we cannot go forward. He can enact any legislation or give any decree and as long as he claims it is for the protection of the Republic You seem to have no understanding of his place in the Tribal Republic. He cannot act legislation or decree on anything, he has no vote and may only resolve disagreements.
The idea that he is the only or even the most aware of the threat of the Empire in the Tribal Order or even on the Tribal Council itself is inane and laughable.
As strength goes.
|
|
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
877
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 16:33:25 -
[51] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:You seem to have no understanding of his place in the Tribal Republic. He cannot act legislation or decree on anything, he has no vote and may only resolve disagreements.
And you seem to have no idea how power and influence actually work.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3487
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 16:41:46 -
[52] - Quote
No no, Ayallah knows everything, and can't ever be wrong. Just ask her. |
Ioannis Sepphiros
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 16:51:18 -
[53] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:[quote=Ioannis Sepphiros]
Those that matter/are in the thick of it should step up and be beacons of hope and unity Captain Rhiannon, I dont harbor such false notions about myself nor I could contribute in a fundamental manner given my youth as a capsuleer within this topic. I can only state what I would like to see from a personal viewpoint and thats as far as I can go about this given how I would be disrespectful to the rest before me that have done so much about the Republic, each to his/her own capacity and will.
A question on this: precisely who are you referring to when you say 'those that matter are in the thick of it'?
Those capsuleers that matter and or are in the thick of helping the Republic to grow.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3488
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 17:22:36 -
[54] - Quote
Ioannis Sepphiros wrote:
Those capsuleers that matter and or are in the thick of helping the Republic to grow.
And how does someone with the University of Caille determine which capsuleers matter? |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
878
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 18:14:58 -
[55] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:Hmm, interesting. The idea thar the Usurpers have been predictable suggests that you consider Colelie to have been predictable.
Not the exact events, no.
But you seem to follow my thinking on that already, so maybe nothing more needs to be said on it.
I'd rather not talk about Colelie, anyway.
|
Ioannis Sepphiros
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 18:21:49 -
[56] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Ioannis Sepphiros wrote:
Those capsuleers that matter and or are in the thick of helping the Republic to grow.
And how does someone with the University of Caille determine which capsuleers matter?
I must admit I dont follow your point at asking this.. Are you asking of what are my personal standards for the point I raised? or you mean something different by it? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3491
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 18:33:17 -
[57] - Quote
Ioannis Sepphiros wrote:
I must admit I dont follow your point at asking this.. Are you asking of what are my personal standards for the point I raised? or you mean something different by it?
I mean, you seem to be establishing a criterion for who should and shouldn't have a say in how our people attempt to move forward, resolve ancient grievances, and secure freedom for the rest of our people. And I'm just a bit curious as to a)how you think you're in a position to evaluate that criterion, and b)why that decision should be up to anyone but us. |
Ioannis Sepphiros
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 18:53:41 -
[58] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Ioannis Sepphiros wrote:
I must admit I dont follow your point at asking this.. Are you asking of what are my personal standards for the point I raised? or you mean something different by it?
I mean, you seem to be establishing a criterion for who should and shouldn't have a say in how our people attempt to move forward, resolve ancient grievances, and secure freedom for the rest of our people. And I'm just a bit curious as to a)how you think you're in a position to evaluate that criterion, and b)why that decision should be up to anyone but us.
Regarding point (A) I believe you are far from the mark of what I stated. I will encourage you to give some reading on what I said. I will simply assume that there has been some mixup due to how things may seem by text and will say that if anything gave you that impression, its a wrong one.
The only entertainment I will provide at this is that any criterion I may have is the one equivalently granted to anyone under a democratic regime despite where one has held his studies. What you imply with what you state is, again, way off the mark of my so far rhetoric.
Regarding point (B) I will simply elaborate that no decision belongs to anyone but only to everyone following the laws of the Republic and the power that is granted by those laws. And us are part of the decisionmaking one way or another as well, since we all are to a degree affected by those laws or may place pressure on those laws.
So elaborate more on point B if you may please, in case you think I havent understood what you meant by it but really I believe that my personal opinions on any matter that goes beyond the scope of what Captain Rhiannon has raised, would actually derail this thread and its something that I dont believe you would want to do so either.
|
Victoria Grey
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
60
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 20:50:36 -
[59] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Victoria Grey wrote:What can we really do? Unify and Discuss. So really a merging of all three options. This isn't a solution so much as a first step to a resolution. I have no say in anything that the various Matari aligned corps and alliances want but from my viewpoint, why not combine efforts of both Electus Matari and Ushra'Khan?
I know that I may not be addressing the right people to suggest this but my honest opinion is the same as someone else on this thread: We need someone(s) influential/in the thick of things to come forward. Combine their efforts to do what? Which way is forward? I'm sorry if I am contrary and keep on coming back to this - but it is really at the heart of the issue. Combined forces doing ineffective things is just two times zero.
Agreed. I one hundred percent agree with you. Which is why I think that the two, maybe even three Alliances should come together, form a coalition and find another avenue for furthering the Matari ways and Republic Support.
It seems to me that the Toy War is absolutely ineffectual and is more a ploy to keep Capsuleers busy. Solution? Don't let it distract us. Mostly pull out. There will always be others defending the line and if the Republic actual cares two licks about the Toy War at all they'll add more Republic support for it. It may turn out that the Toy War is actually important but I really doubt it.
What I think would be a good avenue for solution? Make like... and I can't believe I'm saying this... but look at P.I.E. Sure they fight in the Toy War but them and the greater C.V.A. seem to be flourishing in space of their own. Strike out at Low and null sec housings of the Amarrian Loyalists who undoubtedly use the power and influence to strengthen and support the Slavers back in their home territories. All while Matari Loyalists are stuck in the toy War going no where.
Is this the right avenue? I don't know know, it might be a start. My point is that the first thing that needs to happen is for the powerhouses of -EM- and U'K to start talks on working together and from there a direction.
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
I don't know what is the matter with people. I have said, repeatedly, that I do not think a solution exists. Yet some keep on asking me one, and others criticizing me of believing in silver bullets.
I am also not looking to go back to what we were. First, what has happened is part of our living tradition now, and you cannot just pretend it never happened - and second, it's not like we did not have problems those days too.
No, with "solution" I mean pretty much anything that is possible and does not mean the end of us as a free people.
I believe there are things that are possible. Things better at least than the stagnation. I posit at least a dialogue be opened up between interested parties.
Can this be done and how can my crew and I help? |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation
Mercenary Coalition
1638
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 20:55:20 -
[60] - Quote
Could always go plonk down some Citadels in Great Wildlands and try to make something of the region like Provi did. Electus Matari has some industrial experience, so taking advantage of the region's resources and building it up to support the Tribes in the years to come would be a worthwhile endeavor. |
|
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Mitara Newelle
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
594
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 21:21:09 -
[61] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Clearly, we're not the ones with a congenital difficulty in seeking peaceful coexistence with our neighbors.
The treachery of the Minmatar - again - says otherwise, as here we are with the CEWPA. If you value your 'Republic' you should consider the words of Lord Admiral Lok'ri, he is wise and generous. Your people are in an untenable position and the usurper regime must be replaced before any serious diplomacy takes place.
Of course, if the diplomats fail, seeing Imperial starships fly in Pator over nothing but glass planets is just as acceptable.
Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade
Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3497
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 21:25:22 -
[62] - Quote
Mitara Newelle wrote:
The treachery of the Minmatar
Ah yes, treachery. The go-to accusation of the aggrieved oppressor.
Quote:
Of course, if the diplomats fail, seeing Imperial starships fly in Pator over nothing but glass planets is just as acceptable.
Quite the little threat to toss in when attempting to refute a demonstration of just who the untrustworthy savages in this relationship are, don't you think? |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation
Mercenary Coalition
1639
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 21:27:26 -
[63] - Quote
Mitara Newelle wrote:Arrendis wrote:Clearly, we're not the ones with a congenital difficulty in seeking peaceful coexistence with our neighbors. The treachery of the Minmatar - again - says otherwise, as here we are with the CEWPA. If you value your 'Republic' you should consider the words of Lord Admiral Lok'ri, he is wise and generous. Your people are in an untenable position and the usurper regime must be replaced before any serious diplomacy takes place. Of course, if the diplomats fail, seeing Imperial starships fly in Pator over nothing but glass planets is just as acceptable.
Spirits below I knew I liked you. I can't wait for the day when you realize the price something like that would cost, and see your face then. |
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
998
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 21:50:23 -
[64] - Quote
Sinti Vailatti wrote:
Gaven,
This isn't about you. I know you think you know all the answers when it comes to us, but you...especially you, don't get to come here and offer an opinion on what we should or shouldn't do.
Hey now, be careful. That's a fragile ego you're handling there.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
Sani-Sabik
2158
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 05:14:57 -
[65] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Mitara Newelle wrote:
Of course, if the diplomats fail, seeing Imperial starships fly in Pator over nothing but glass planets is just as acceptable.
Spirits below I knew I liked you. I can't wait for the day when you realize the price something like that would cost, and see your face then.
It would cost 3 or 4 of the Throne Worlds, as I've mentioned in a different thread.
And thing is, the Amarr could afford that price, trading 3-4 worlds for one Minmatar world.
Be careful what you people wish for.
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
|
Teinyhr
Ourumur
873
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 12:00:05 -
[66] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Mitara Newelle wrote:
Of course, if the diplomats fail, seeing Imperial starships fly in Pator over nothing but glass planets is just as acceptable.
Spirits below I knew I liked you. I can't wait for the day when you realize the price something like that would cost, and see your face then. It would cost 3 or 4 of the Throne Worlds, as I've mentioned in a different thread. And thing is, the Amarr could afford that price, trading 3-4 worlds for one Minmatar world. Be careful what you people wish for.
But then they would be weakened enough to be picked off by the Drifters and the Gallente & Caldari. At the very least they would be eternally crying over the husk of their homeworld, which would be nice.
I mean, if we're throwing around idle threats. |
Halcyon Ember
Repracor Industries
245
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 12:24:05 -
[67] - Quote
Teinyhr wrote:
I mean, if we're throwing around idle threats.
It would be perfectly reasonable to rename this forum "The idle threat place".
Actually... |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3512
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 13:26:22 -
[68] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:
It would cost 3 or 4 of the Throne Worlds, as I've mentioned in a different thread.
And thing is, the Amarr could afford that price, trading 3-4 worlds for one Minmatar world.
You're clearly missing Miz's framework. Mitara's threat said nothing about retaliatory glassing. And it's not like the Amarr haven't demonstrated a proven history of 'you killed one person, we'll kill an entire planet'.
So if they start eradicating civilian populations, how do you think the rest of the cluster reacts? Do you think the Federation doesn't go to war? That puts the State in a very tricky position.
Without the RepublicGÇöand let's face it, if the Amarr are glassing the Pator system, we've already lost as a coherent political entityGÇöthe State and Empire have the firepower to roll the Federation. Let's face it, the lion's share of the formerly Federal worlds and resources go to the Amarr, because they're bigger and stronger than the State. Especially since I'm sure the Amarr will 'need time' to reorient the bulk of their military. The fighting along the Federal front will see the State taking the brunt of the losses.
End Result: the Empire winds up much bigger and stronger than the State, sitting high on their 'The Reclaiming Has Begun AnewGäó' horse, and there is nobody to provide the State with a balance of power like the one we have now.
And of course, it is their divinely-appointed duty. With no Jove, and no Federation, to stop them this time.
That's how the scenario might play out if the State blindly supports the Empire while the Empire is gleefully murdering civilian populations. It might not. But if you're the State... can you risk it? What if you come in against the Empire? What if you don't join war at all?
Well, then the Empire's on the losing end of the math. Even if it's just the Federation, mind you, because the State is more powerful, militarily, than the Republic, and the two sides are relatively balanced right now. 4+3 = 5+2, you know? So if the Republic's the smallest, the Federation's gotta be the biggest, or this whole 'balance of power' thing was a complete boondoggle from the beginning for the Empire (which, as we know, it wasn't). And the Feds will still have the support of whatever surviving Matari forces remain, too.
If the State sits this thing out, then the Federation will win. And be ginormous. That's no good, they're back in the position of 'those guys with a history of attempting to force people to do things their way are unstoppable'.
So the State needs to be accumulating power here, too. And the easiest way to do that is to start taking Amarr territories for themselves. Back-channel politics maybe spin it as 'saving' those systems, even as they let the Federal forces take the larger share of the losses in the campaigns. To the Feds, they can point out that Caldari controlGÇöas, after all, the people with the long relationships with the local HoldersGÇölikely means less civil unrest. There's a chance, at least, of maintaining the balance of power.
Do they do that? Is that how the math shakes out? If you're the Empire, do you want to risk it? Regardless of your answer, I promise, Her Imperial Catieness isn't that dumb.
So... no. The Amarr Empire can't afford to start glassing planets and just 'write off' a few hundred billion of their own people. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7549
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 15:13:56 -
[69] - Quote
As much as I don't want to get involved in the disputes between the Empire and the Republic on an unpaid basis, you should remember that the State traditionally invades other peoples space under very specific circumstances - and neither Athra nor Pator contain the Caldari homeworld.
I would, personally, not participate in an Empire attack on the Republic, unless said war were in the best interests of the State. As others have said, it really isn't in the best interests of the State for EITHER of the expansionist powers to get stronger. In order to maintain our independence, we have to maintain a military strong enough to fight off any invader.
I think this is elementary statecraft. I can't believe the CEP doesn't see this, themselves. Whilst the State would certainly aid the Empire against an invasion by the Republic, I don't see us getting involved in an Imperial attack on the Republic. If anything, it's in the interests of the State for the Republic to get a bit stronger - in trade and military strength.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
881
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 15:30:49 -
[70] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:As much as I don't want to get involved in the disputes between the Empire and the Republic on an unpaid basis[quote]
... you are going to do it anyway.
[quote]I think this is elementary statecraft.
Yes, and I agree that this is reason.
If you were us, however, would you bet your very existence on international politics following reason?
|
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3516
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 15:58:36 -
[71] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:If anything, it's in the interests of the State for the Republic to get a bit stronger - in trade and military strength.
What would really be in the best interests of the State and the Republic, Pieter, is for the State to help the Republic get strong enough that the two of them can together offset either of the larger, expansionist powers.
For all the Gallente were helpful to us in the Rebellion, they're just as guilty as the Amarr of attempting to infect our culture with theirsGÇöalbeit in a less oppressive, less egregious (but simultaneously, far more insidious) way. That's why, despite all of the 'Usurper' rhetoric being bandied about, we chose this. We, the common citizens of the time, were glad to see the Gallente-style parliament replaced with the Tribal Council.
And if the common citizens wanted to change things up now, they'd pressure their Chiefs to make those changes. So the 'usurpers', right now, have a lot more legitimacy in the eyes of the governedGÇöthe only place it mattersGÇöthan the capsuleers who like to throw shade on them for not being a foreign organ, grafted onto our people.
The parliament fomented nothing but bickering while nothing got done.
I leave it to you to draw any parallels you may. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3516
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 16:03:39 -
[72] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:If you were us, however, would you bet your very existence on international politics following reason?
We kind of already do, what with the alliance with the Federation. |
Charles Cambridge Schmidt
The Scope
Gallente Federation
452
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 16:46:51 -
[73] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:If you were us, however, would you bet your very existence on international politics following reason?
We kind of already do, what with the alliance with the Federation.
You'll take our relief money and you'll like it, missy!
I don't care what you think, as long as it's about me.
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
882
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 17:06:41 -
[74] - Quote
Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote:You'll take our relief money and you'll like it, missy!
I'll take it if she doesn't want to.
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Ayallah
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
914
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 17:07:36 -
[75] - Quote
All this goes under the assumption that the State would act because they wish to prevent a larger, more powerful Federation. They seem quite comfortable now under a larger, more powerful Federation so what for them would change but the amount of sabotage and preparation? I am not Caldari but I would think that they would simply build themselves up as more of a deterrent. Because this is what they have always done in face of a larger, more powerful Federation.
Or perhaps they would expand north and take the time to focus on the Guristas. Or secure Black Rise finally. ...I just do not think they would intervene in a war between others unless paid to do so. I see them profiting from all involved sides.
Trying to think like a Caldari depresses me though, so I will stop.
As strength goes.
|
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
Sani-Sabik
2163
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 17:09:35 -
[76] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Valerie Valate wrote:
It would cost 3 or 4 of the Throne Worlds, as I've mentioned in a different thread.
And thing is, the Amarr could afford that price, trading 3-4 worlds for one Minmatar world.
You're clearly missing Miz's framework. Mitara's threat said nothing about retaliatory glassing. And it's not like the Amarr haven't demonstrated a proven history of 'you killed one person, we'll kill an entire planet'.
Well. Here's the thing. The Empire has been attacked on more than one occasion, by various parties, using weaponry that is in the same league as "glassing", by which I mean bioweaponry used on civilian populations.
And the Empire did not retaliate in kind, but instead used conventional military force to rout the attackers. E.g. when the Covenant attacked Mabnem, the Empire did not glass all the planets controlled by the Covenant in the Bleak Lands, instead using overwhelming force to eradicate the Covenant presence.
On that basis, were the Empire to begin glassing planets, then, something very, very, very bad has happened. And that's where my maths come from. If Pator has been attacked, then I expect more than one of the Throne Worlds to have similarly been attacked.
But the Empire can survive losing a Throne World.
Can the Minmatar survive losing Matar ?
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
|
Ayallah
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
914
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 17:12:47 -
[77] - Quote
Losing Matar would make a Martyr.
It would cement their identity which is now suffering from peace and easy living.
As strength goes.
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Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
2439
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 17:32:07 -
[78] - Quote
Mitara Newelle wrote:
Typical bellicose slaver chest beating and then this gem...
...Of course, if the diplomats fail, seeing Imperial starships fly in Pator over nothing but glass planets is just as acceptable.
Do the words "mutually assured destruction" mean anything to you, slaver?
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
|
Halcyon Ember
Repracor Industries
253
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 17:36:44 -
[79] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:Mitara Newelle wrote:
Typical bellicose slaver chest beating and then this gem...
...Of course, if the diplomats fail, seeing Imperial starships fly in Pator over nothing but glass planets is just as acceptable.
Do the words "mutually assured destruction" mean anything to you, slaver?
I have a thread for this |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3519
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 17:40:05 -
[80] - Quote
Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote:
You'll take our relief money and you'll like it, missy!
Your money? Sure. Your dangerous ideas about cultural amalgamation and mob rule? Mmmmm.... let's just keep it at 'money', ok? |
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Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
2441
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 18:02:40 -
[81] - Quote
Pilot Ember I wasn't making an idle threat but stating a fact. MAD is what has kept the peace (mostly) between our nations for the last hundred or so years.
While the imperials would ultimately triumph in a direct conflict against the Republic (assuming the Federation didn't intervene on our behalf) the ensuing victory would be the very definition of Pyrrhic. The "win" would be so costly in terms of loss of lives and materiel that what was left of the empire would be vulnerable to attack from the remaining state actors or extra-state actors such as the Covenant, Nation, Cartel, EoM, etc. Also, unless they wiped out every last Minmatar, including those billions who live in the Federation, they would be facing an eternal guerilla war fought by the surviving Matari.
But hey, why let little details like that interfere with common sense? If you imperials are so sure of yourselves then by all means mount up your war armada and fly the 22 jumps between Amarr and Matar and do your damnedest. Just either do it or shut the hell up about it. I too am sick of the idle threats.
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
|
Jason Galente
Tempest Legion
1126
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 18:06:18 -
[82] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote:
You'll take our relief money and you'll like it, missy!
Your money? Sure. Your dangerous ideas about cultural amalgamation and mob rule? Mmmmm.... let's just keep it at 'money', ok?
And this is the problem with the Fed's current policy.
"Yeah we'll take your free **** that you had to tax your citizens to get, but become a part of the civic polity and contribute something in return? Nah."
People will only put up with that for so long in a democracy.. just saying.
Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole.
And this foundation must be defended.
At any cost
|
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
2441
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 18:12:30 -
[83] - Quote
Not all of us are anti-Federation Pilot Galente. I'm a bit biased having been raised and educated on Luminaire but a great many of us Matari are thankful for all that your people have done and continue to do for us. Having said that, our complicated relationship is something that we struggle with and there is hardly a consensus as to what should be the way forward.
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7553
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 18:14:57 -
[84] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:Not all of us are anti-Federation Pilot Galente. I'm a bit biased having been raised and educated on Luminaire but a great many of us Matari are thankful for all that your people have done and continue to do for us. Having said that, our complicated relationship is something that we struggle with and there is hardly a consensus as to what should be the way forward.
I think there's definitely a consensus, currently, that gratitude is an ill-fitting garment that chafes if worn for too long. There also seems to be a strong-desire to abandon democratic republicanism in favour of a model of government that fits more comfortably with the Matari's tribal roots.
I, mean, we all have tribal roots - just that traditions stemming from that social model are still very relevant in Matari culture and society.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Ayallah
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
916
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 18:22:33 -
[85] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:There also seems to be a strong-desire to abandon democratic republicanism in favour of a model of government that fits more comfortably with the Matari's tribal roots. It happened three years ago.
As strength goes.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3523
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 19:57:47 -
[86] - Quote
Jason Galente wrote:
People will only put up with that for so long in a democracy.. just saying.
Yeah, about as long as the Fed needs us to offset the combined strength of the Empire and State.
Like I said: 4+3 = 5+2. Lose that 2, though... |
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7558
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 20:00:10 -
[87] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:There also seems to be a strong-desire to abandon democratic republicanism in favour of a model of government that fits more comfortably with the Matari's tribal roots. It happened three years ago.
I believe it's still current, isn't it? I've not heard of a 'back to the Republic' backlash, anyway...
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3523
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 20:15:32 -
[88] - Quote
Ioannis Sepphiros wrote:
Regarding point (A) I believe you are far from the mark of what I stated. I will encourage you to give some reading on what I said. I will simply assume that there has been some mixup due to how things may seem by text and will say that if anything gave you that impression, its a wrong one.
That's fair, and I accept your apology for your failure to communicate more clearly.
Quote:
Regarding point (B) I will simply elaborate that no decision belongs to anyone but only to everyone following the laws of the Republic and the power that is granted by those laws. And us are part of the decisionmaking one way or another as well, since we all are to a degree affected by those laws or may place pressure on those laws.
I'm sorry, but are you actually saying that residents of the Federation should be able to influence the laws of the Republic based on some principle of 'because we can'?
Because that's how "And us are part of the decisionmaking one way or another as well, since we [. . .] may place pressure on those laws." reads. 'We may place pressure so we get to be part of the decision-making process." Pressure, after all, means either a carrot or a stick. That's how pressure works. Either 'If we do what you want, we get something.' or 'If we don't do what you want, you do something we won't like'.
And I have to say, that's pretty much tantamount to 'do what we say or else'. Is that really the statement you want to be making with no more justification than 'because we can do it'? |
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7558
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 20:33:32 -
[89] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Ioannis Sepphiros wrote:
Regarding point (B) I will simply elaborate that no decision belongs to anyone but only to everyone following the laws of the Republic and the power that is granted by those laws. And us are part of the decisionmaking one way or another as well, since we all are to a degree affected by those laws or may place pressure on those laws.
I'm sorry, but are you actually saying that residents of the Federation should be able to influence the laws of the Republic based on some principle of 'because we can'? Because that's how "And us are part of the decisionmaking one way or another as well, since we [. . .] may place pressure on those laws." reads. 'We may place pressure so we get to be part of the decision-making process." Pressure, after all, means either a carrot or a stick. That's how pressure works. Either 'If we do what you want, we get something.' or 'If we don't do what you want, you do something we won't like'. And I have to say, that's pretty much tantamount to 'do what we say or else'. Is that really the statement you want to be making with no more justification than 'because we can do it'?
I mean, I'd say "I told you so" but....
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3523
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 20:59:32 -
[90] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:
Well. Here's the thing. The Empire has been attacked on more than one occasion, by various parties, using weaponry that is in the same league as "glassing", by which I mean bioweaponry used on civilian populations.
Bioweaponry used on a civilian population is a terrible thing.
It is not, however, equivalent to an orbital bombardment of the entire planet that does not stop until the entire temperate world is a molten heap that will never again support any life in any significant amount.
So, let's not equate 'you attacked a city' with 'Starkman Prime / Arzad II doesn't even support microbial life a millennium later', ok?
I mean, you can spout 'I don't think X would happen unless Y', but I've got a decidedly non-theoretical counterexample of 1 man being murdered, so the Amarr eradicated all life on anentire planet. Last time I checked, I don't think any of the household pets on that planet were co-conspirators, but they all died, too! |
|
|
Ioannis Sepphiros
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 21:22:18 -
[91] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Ioannis Sepphiros wrote:
Regarding point (A) I believe you are far from the mark of what I stated. I will encourage you to give some reading on what I said. I will simply assume that there has been some mixup due to how things may seem by text and will say that if anything gave you that impression, its a wrong one.
That's fair, and I accept your apology for your failure to communicate more clearly. Quote:
Regarding point (B) I will simply elaborate that no decision belongs to anyone but only to everyone following the laws of the Republic and the power that is granted by those laws. And us are part of the decisionmaking one way or another as well, since we all are to a degree affected by those laws or may place pressure on those laws.
I'm sorry, but are you actually saying that residents of the Federation should be able to influence the laws of the Republic based on some principle of 'because we can'? Because that's how "And us are part of the decisionmaking one way or another as well, since we [. . .] may place pressure on those laws." reads. 'We may place pressure so we get to be part of the decision-making process." Pressure, after all, means either a carrot or a stick. That's how pressure works. Either 'If we do what you want, we get something.' or 'If we don't do what you want, you do something we won't like'. And I have to say, that's pretty much tantamount to 'do what we say or else'. Is that really the statement you want to be making with no more justification than 'because we can do it'?
I didnt apologise for anything so, there is nothing to accept I suppose.
Also, I may not look the part but I am of Minmatar descent so again thats off the mark.
In any rate, Miss Arrendis, just for the record I wont keep on derailing Captain Rhiannon's post by turning this about me from now on. I have been very rather clear on what I have stated and what I meant, even with providing some explanations about your first questions regarding my initial posts. In case you want any more clarification we can always have a private chat.
Also, interesting ideas/perceptions you seem to have of what pressure is under a democratic regime. I do hope we can keep on debating on the actual points raised by Captain Rhiannon at some point again however. Enjoy your evening.
|
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
Sani-Sabik
2166
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 21:36:08 -
[92] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Valerie Valate wrote:
Well. Here's the thing. The Empire has been attacked on more than one occasion, by various parties, using weaponry that is in the same league as "glassing", by which I mean bioweaponry used on civilian populations.
So,
Fine then.
They're not in the same league.
But they're at least playing the same sport.
Are you happy now ?
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
|
Challis Drant
Gradient
Electus Matari
18
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 22:43:14 -
[93] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:
But the Empire can survive losing a Throne World.
Can the Minmatar survive losing Matar ?
We have already lost it once and we got it back - stands to reason on a historical basis we would get it back. Yeah it might be unable to support life for a very long time.... but for a period of time it was under Amarr control and not able to fully represent the Minmatar people. We have dealt with this before - we can do it again if needed.
The current four way standoff is far preferable to a three way standoff - it is so much easier to create a 2 on 1 in a three way system, getting a 3 vs 1 is a lot harder. And I am sure that even if a simple Brutor can work that out - so can a Caldari politician.
Combining EM and Ushra'Khan in the Great Wildlands would do nothing - it is already part of the Republic and therefore subject to Republic rule and laws - and trying to form a rump Matari state there or in any other region is Treason. "Someone" is going to have to come up with a very very good reason why a Corporation and Alliance that supports the Republic would be willing to head down a path that would lead to civil war - and that somehow we should be leading it rather than shooting at those who threaten the Republic.
Good luck with coming up with that reason. |
Jason Galente
Tempest Legion
1131
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 22:49:04 -
[94] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Jason Galente wrote:
People will only put up with that for so long in a democracy.. just saying.
Yeah, about as long as the Fed needs us to offset the combined strength of the Empire and State. Like I said: 4+3 = 5+2. Lose that 2, though...
I was talking more internally, but I see what you mean when it comes to international politics between the Fed and Republic. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement.
Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole.
And this foundation must be defended.
At any cost
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3523
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 23:22:02 -
[95] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:
They're not in the same league.
But they're at least playing the same sport.
Are you happy now ?
Well, now that you've acknowledged your whole rationale for objecting to Miz's statement has fallen apart?
Yeah. I am. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3524
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 23:36:26 -
[96] - Quote
Jason Galente wrote:I was talking more internally, but I see what you mean when it comes to international politics between the Fed and Republic. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement.
Right, and that mutual benefit is why the upper echelons of the Federal government will continue to sell foreign aid to the people: because they need the Republic. And the Republic needs that foreign aid. But neither side benefits from the cultural pressure that breeds resentment within the Republic, and gets the Federation populace wondering why the Matari are 'so ungrateful'. |
ValentinaDLM
Remember The Fallen.
Atlas. Alliance
911
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 08:41:48 -
[97] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:As much as I don't want to get involved in the disputes between the Empire and the Republic on an unpaid basis, you should remember that the State traditionally invades other peoples space under very specific circumstances - and neither Athra nor Pator contain the Caldari homeworld.
I would, personally, not participate in an Empire attack on the Republic, unless said war were in the best interests of the State. As others have said, it really isn't in the best interests of the State for EITHER of the expansionist powers to get stronger. In order to maintain our independence, we have to maintain a military strong enough to fight off any invader.
I think this is elementary statecraft. I can't believe the CEP doesn't see this, themselves. Whilst the State would certainly aid the Empire against an invasion by the Republic, I don't see us getting involved in an Imperial attack on the Republic. If anything, it's in the interests of the State for the Republic to get a bit stronger - in trade and military strength.
It is no secret that I broadly agree with your assessment, and think that stronger ties between the State and the Republic could be helpful to everyone. I think beyond anything though what the State and the Republic have, are that they are survivors who have known true strife and became stronger in the face of it. I wonder how the Empire or the Federation would react to a truly existential threat?
I am certainly no expert in statecraft or diplomacy, but I do know that when Of Questionable Repute, and Multicultural F1 Brigade teamed up to fight Sansha's Nation (and a few Gallente) in Black Rise, despite the different militia flags being flown, we both had mutual benefit from it, and I am far more comfortable working towards mutual benefit as it encourages us to be strong, whereas the Federation always seems to want to solve our problems for us, keeping us weak and resenting us for it. Don't get me wrong, the Federation isn't just as bad as the Amarr, but they both think their way is the best way for everyone, and that is incredibly dangerous thinking.
As for a solution to the problem of the main topic at hand, getting stronger is the only thing we really can do till the Tribes and the Sanmatar provide us with a solution, participating in the militia conflict or elsewhere, could actually make us stronger via experience, so I don't consider it a waste of resources. |
Victoria Grey
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
60
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 21:21:41 -
[98] - Quote
Challis Drant wrote:
The current four way standoff is far preferable to a three way standoff - it is so much easier to create a 2 on 1 in a three way system, getting a 3 vs 1 is a lot harder. And I am sure that even if a simple Brutor can work that out - so can a Caldari politician.
Combining EM and Ushra'Khan in the Great Wildlands would do nothing - it is already part of the Republic and therefore subject to Republic rule and laws - and trying to form a rump Matari state there or in any other region is Treason. "Someone" is going to have to come up with a very very good reason why a Corporation and Alliance that supports the Republic would be willing to head down a path that would lead to civil war - and that somehow we should be leading it rather than shooting at those who threaten the Republic.
Good luck with coming up with that reason.
I definitely do not want a civil war or the creation of a different Matari state. I love the Republic, The Sanmatar, and especially how complete we, as a nation, have become with all seven tribes back in the fold. If the news (recently with the Kyonoke Crises if nothing else) is anything to go by our science, crises response, and national cohesiveness is among the best and most advanced in the cluster and I'm proud of that.
No I just feel a little disheartened at how the Toy War seems pointless and ineffectual. How its continued existence seems to be a trap for capsuleers locking them out of any way to effectively support the Republic. To the point that I doubt anything would happen if we pulled out of it all together.
The idea of combining forces of EM and U'K was an idea based on romanticism I'll be honest. I just thought if two giants such as those two were to talk to each other, something might happen. Something beneficial, whatever they decided.
I guess the heart of it all, I feel there is more we could do to support our Tribes and the greater Republic than to just put our heads down and go through the motions of of the Toy War. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation
Mercenary Coalition
1658
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 21:59:15 -
[99] - Quote
Challis, what the hell kind of drugs are you on? Matari entities taking advantage of the industrial resources of Great Wildlands as loyalists is treason, now? Leading to Civil War? For that matter, exactly who is threatening the Republic that needs you shooting them? The Pendulum Participants can't do anything in our space, no different from how we can do sod all in theirs, so unless you're talking about wetwork for the corps I have to admit I'm curious what you're talking about. If it is the corp wetwork stuff, well I can assure you there's even more to shoot in Great Wildlands in that regard.
As for good reasons... well, perhaps you haven't noticed but there's not exactly a significant number of loyalists around our space anymore. One of the reasons for that is quite simple: There's sod all to do there that is very worthwhile for a lot of capsuleers. Why do you think so many of us has kept bleeding out of Republic highsec and into all kinds of other entities? Off the top of my head, I can think of examples having joined Goons, Brave, Test, Mercenary Coalition, Hard Knocks, Dyslexia Paradox, even Provibloc and so on. The one thing these places have in common is that they try to reach a bit further than you can ever climb in highsec.
Industrialists, combat pilots, wetwork specialists, researchers and developers and so on.
So many of us have had to leave home behind because there was no more growth and challenge to be had there. Want a reason to try to carve out a piece of nullsec for Tribal loyalists? It might very well be the only way to keep any but the most timid from leaving it all behind in order to grow past the limitations inherent in highsec living. Null, even the claimed space like Great Wildlands, offer far greater challenges and opportunities for capsuleer entities, be it in terms of industry and development, capsuleer combat and more. And it offers the opportunity to build something that can matter, long term.
Or apparently it's 'treason' and cause for 'civil war', somehow. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3549
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 22:02:14 -
[100] - Quote
Victoria Grey wrote:
How its continued existence seems to be a trap for capsuleers locking them out of any way to effectively support the Republic.
Out of curiosity: how would you suggest capsuleers 'effectively support the Republic', and how does the Pendulum inhibit this? |
|
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3549
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 22:07:21 -
[101] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Want a reason to try to carve out a piece of nullsec for Tribal loyalists? It might very well be the only way to keep any but the most timid from leaving it all behind in order to grow past the limitations inherent in highsec living. Null, even the claimed space like Great Wildlands, offer far greater challenges and opportunities for capsuleer entities, be it in terms of industry and development, capsuleer combat and more. And it offers the opportunity to build something that can matter, long term.
I admit, I'd be tempted by the idea of creating a Matar-aligned military-industrial powerbaseGÇöa real one, mind, something on the order of what I'm already seeing here, not just a couple of astrahus churning out a dozen Rifters a weekGÇöin null. I'm not even close to the person to lead that effort, for what should be obvious reasons, but I'd definitely be tempted.
|
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation
Mercenary Coalition
1658
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 22:18:26 -
[102] - Quote
It'd be a long journey to something like that. You can't just conjure up the kind of manpower (with the expertise and experience required) to grab and hold even a single pocket out of nowhere. It'd have to start relatively small, out of simple practical necessity. Find a few suitable systems with decent logistics options to lowsec (i.e. within JF -and- capital jump distance) as the initial target, with middling to fair system resources. Far enough away from entities that'd be too much of a threat, close enough to contested space to offer combat pilots something to do, and few enough that they can be defended by the initial group of people.
Basically, the start of it all would have to act like a beach head, and a proof of concept rolled into one. So yeah, to begin with? Some citadels and ECs serving as a basic industry colony and combat staging while trying to entice people to come back from what would most certainly still be 'better' jobs.
Sotiyos, Keepstars and super production would be a very long way away yet, even if every loyalist I know of landed out in null tomorrow. Frankly, initial survival would rely more upon security through obscurity than force and numbers. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3550
|
Posted - 2017.05.12 00:39:22 -
[103] - Quote
Honestly, I don't think it's possible to build up like that in the current landscape. There's simply no place that doesn't invite people 20-30j away to come looking for chum. If you don't have a reasonable escalation path, you'll be kicked around by groups willing to drop capitals. If you do have a capital escalation path, you just ring the dinner bell for nearby groups with a supercapital escalation pathway.
So unless you roll in with a force the locals can't kick, you can't really establish that beachhead. And if you do have that kind of force, you need to get the fortifications up and running in pretty short order, or the sharks from farther away will start angling closer. |
Ayallah
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
919
|
Posted - 2017.05.12 06:41:09 -
[104] - Quote
No one survives without diplomacy.
As strength goes.
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
895
|
Posted - 2017.05.12 08:11:38 -
[105] - Quote
I like you, sisters; keep on talking. |
ValentinaDLM
Remember The Fallen.
Atlas. Alliance
913
|
Posted - 2017.05.12 08:52:28 -
[106] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:No one survives without diplomacy.
This reminds me, when I did run an alliance, upon winning our first battle for sovereignty over a system against a local alliance, many voices called for us to go on the offensive, whereas instead Lowhyres and I decided to pursue an arrangement with them instead. In the glory of victory, many are blinded to the realities of war. While we had the strength to beat a similar sized alliance to our own, that alliance was part of Vanguard, and the next fight would have just seen them ask for help and crush us.
There was no loyalist alliance or coalition at the time, or at the present that could stand against Vanguard or any of the large coalitions and It will not be that a new alliance or coalition forms that would have such strength. You don't need to have that though, you just need to be willing to negotiate and fight to defend yourselves and your allies.
There are plenty of options to have a loyalist alliance, or better still coalition of alliances, but none of them involve being able to beat down anyone who may come to fight you. It would depend on doing something useful for the alliances who already had space in that area, from providing industrial services, to isk, to combat strength, or even in the case of the QFC fighting for the amusement of the Imperium, et cetera. |
Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
1337
|
Posted - 2017.05.12 10:51:39 -
[107] - Quote
'Just saying' indeed...
For what little it is worth coming from me, I hope you find your way out of the Pendulumn War and towards peace. Though maybe the State and Republic had some of the best reasons at the start for it all, I hope one day all sides will be able to reapproach the serenity we all once had. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation
Mercenary Coalition
1663
|
Posted - 2017.05.12 10:56:14 -
[108] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:No one survives without diplomacy.
Absolutely. I didn't touch upon this because I don't have a diplomatic bone in my body and that job would have to go to literally anybody else in this hypothetical scenario. The trick would be being able to have balanced diplomatic statuses in the region, reducing the threats enough to allow for such a project to thrive, while still having enough of a threat that would allow the combat pilots to thrive or they'd eventually go elsewhere.
Arrendis, I don't think that holds true. There's of course always a chance that some big entity will come raze the sandcastles for fun and all, but it's nowhere near a certainty. More importantly, by balancing investment with capability such an event could even be a good thing, galvanizing the people involved and teaching a few lessons about hardship but also about how resilient a capsuleer entity can be out there. No matter how big the enemy, it takes significant effort to render an area of space unusable or us impotent, and who's going to bother going through such effort for so little gain? Consider your own 'weaponized boredom' dogmas, and now consider how that would be in play for the bigger entities even if we actively worked against that.
With the current infrastructure options available to capsuleers, combined with the initial low value - relatively, it'd still be significant compared to highsec - of the project and space, I think such an endeavor would indeed get stomped on once in a while, but nowhere near enough to actually kill it or even render it inefficient. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3556
|
Posted - 2017.05.12 14:20:52 -
[109] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:No one survives without diplomacy.
Very true, but diplomacy requires having something to offer. Most of the residents of inhabited space don't exactly want new folks coming in with the intention of taking over. So coming in small... doesn't really give you much to offer them. Coming in in force... lets you at least offer them 'we won't kill you, either'. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3556
|
Posted - 2017.05.12 14:35:54 -
[110] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Arrendis, I don't think that holds true. There's of course always a chance that some big entity will come raze the sandcastles for fun and all, but it's nowhere near a certainty. More importantly, by balancing investment with capability such an event could even be a good thing, galvanizing the people involved and teaching a few lessons about hardship but also about how resilient a capsuleer entity can be out there. No matter how big the enemy, it takes significant effort to render an area of space unusable or us impotent, and who's going to bother going through such effort for so little gain? Consider your own 'weaponized boredom' dogmas, and now consider how that would be in play for the bigger entities even if we actively worked against that.
I don't necessarily disagree that a full-on purge would be more effort than it's worth, but you don't need a full-on purge. You only need enough harassment to make it impossible for the smaller group to actively make use of the space they're trying to rely on for their income.
Consider: Reavers deployed into CO2 space about a month or two ago. You may remember the 'itchy hull' incident? We took less than 100 people, and without any real effort, cut down their use of an entire region by about 80%. Yes, it bounced back in relatively short order after the first week or so, but that was still a very small proprtionate number of people, crippling the income and production capabilities of a nearly 5,000-member alliance. Literally less than 5% of their numbers cost them 80% of their income. And the only reason it bounced back is their response to anyone decloaking was to drop a few dozen supercarriers. That kind of disproportionate response won't be available in this scenario.
Come in with a few hundred, and it won't take much more than thirty or forty people to shut down most revenue streams and send everyone hunkering down and waiting for a target to hit. Weaponized boredom works both ways. |
|
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3556
|
Posted - 2017.05.12 14:40:29 -
[111] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:I hope one day all sides will be able to reapproach the serenity we all once had.
Which would have been when? Ain't been a lot of serenity in my lifetime.
|
Telemicus Thrace
Lucky Fedo Trading Co.
26
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 13:50:04 -
[112] - Quote
While my recollection of history is more in line with Ayallah than Elsebeth I must confess I like the direction this conversation has taken.
Electus Matari and Ushra'Khan uniting to build a prosperous future for the Tribes. What a sight that would be.
Impossible.
But doable. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation
Mercenary Coalition
1819
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 14:17:32 -
[113] - Quote
Electus Matari and Ushra'Khan uniting would be a catastrophe. We've already seen once what happens when one gravity well attracts everything within reach and then reaches critical mass. We don't need another single point of failure going off again. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
925
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 14:32:01 -
[114] - Quote
Telemicus Thrace wrote:words
Well now, there is a name I haven't seen for a while. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
925
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 14:34:21 -
[115] - Quote
Also, let me stress, once more, that I do not currently speak for EM, in this thread or elsewhere.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3713
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 14:57:08 -
[116] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:I do not currently speak for EM
WHO SPEAKS FOR KIN/THERM?!?
Sorry, I'm in a weird mood.
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
925
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 15:01:19 -
[117] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:I do not currently speak for EM WHO SPEAKS FOR KIN/THERM?!?Sorry, I'm in a weird mood.
 |
KillJoy Tseng
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
7
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 15:59:20 -
[118] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:... I believe many in the alliance are sympathetic to what I say and/or to what others have seen in this thread...
You mean like those of us who signed up for a corp you were heading?  |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
948
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 16:01:51 -
[119] - Quote
KillJoy Tseng wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:... I believe many in the alliance are sympathetic to what I say and/or to what others have seen in this thread... You mean like those of us who signed up for a corp you were heading?
Well, some of you are probably just in to keep an eye on me. One of those morbid curiosity things. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation
Mercenary Coalition
1835
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Posted - 2017.05.19 16:05:52 -
[120] - Quote
Just sayin', I bloody called it. |
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3756
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 16:09:09 -
[121] - Quote
Called which? You've called a lot of things a lot of things, you know. You even called me a Goon once, and we all know how ridiculous that proposition is. |
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
Sani-Sabik
2192
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 16:40:03 -
[122] - Quote
Minmatar soap opera is difficult to follow.
They're mostly shirtless in it though, so at least you know who is who, if not what they're plotting.
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3756
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 16:41:34 -
[123] - Quote
You should start watching Firetails, then. |
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
Sani-Sabik
2192
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 16:42:52 -
[124] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:You should start watching Firetails, then.
The film, or the series ?
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3764
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 16:46:11 -
[125] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:Arrendis wrote:You should start watching Firetails, then. The film, or the series ?
The series is a lot longer. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
952
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 16:53:24 -
[126] - Quote
Heroes of the Rebellion.
Yes, I'll keep on saying that every time someone brings up Firetails. Someone must hold up some standards here. |
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
Sani-Sabik
2194
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 16:53:45 -
[127] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Valerie Valate wrote:Arrendis wrote:You should start watching Firetails, then. The film, or the series ? The series is a lot longer.
Aha, but don't you see ? You've fallen into my cunningly disguised trap. By endorsing the series over the film, you have chosen a side in the gal-net war between the rival groups of aficionados, and will now receive the scorn of the adherents to the One True Film.
Enjoy the vast amount of poorly-worded but intensely angry mail that you will now be sent.
Wahahahaaaaa.
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3768
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 16:58:33 -
[128] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Heroes of the Rebellion.
Yes, I'll keep on saying that every time someone brings up Firetails. Someone must hold up some standards here.
I never claimed it was great stuff, I just figure Firetails will keep the whack-a-do occupied for a while. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3768
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 17:00:29 -
[129] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:
By endorsing the series over the film
Which I haven't done. I made no statements about their relative merits, only that the series is longer, which is an empirical fact. 50 hours of the worst trash smut Gallente Flair Press puts out, for example, is longer than a 2-hr masterpiece of cinema.
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Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
Sani-Sabik
2196
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 17:03:46 -
[130] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Valerie Valate wrote:
By endorsing the series over the film
Which I haven't done. I made no statements about their relative merits, only that the series is longer, which is an empirical fact. 50 hours of the worst trash smut Gallente Flair Press puts out, for example, is longer than a 2-hr masterpiece of cinema.
Spin all you want, you cannot avoid the wave of angry fanmail that is now incoming. Hope you have a good firewall.
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3769
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 17:12:23 -
[131] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:
Spin all you want, you cannot avoid the wave of angry fanmail that is now incoming. Hope you have a good firewall.
i have a whole lot of 'don't give a crap', actually. |
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