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Ioannis Sepphiros
University of Caille Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2017.05.10 21:22:18 -
[91] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Ioannis Sepphiros wrote: Regarding point (A) I believe you are far from the mark of what I stated. I will encourage you to give some reading on what I said. I will simply assume that there has been some mixup due to how things may seem by text and will say that if anything gave you that impression, its a wrong one.
That's fair, and I accept your apology for your failure to communicate more clearly. Quote: Regarding point (B) I will simply elaborate that no decision belongs to anyone but only to everyone following the laws of the Republic and the power that is granted by those laws. And us are part of the decisionmaking one way or another as well, since we all are to a degree affected by those laws or may place pressure on those laws.
I'm sorry, but are you actually saying that residents of the Federation should be able to influence the laws of the Republic based on some principle of 'because we can'? Because that's how "And us are part of the decisionmaking one way or another as well, since we [. . .] may place pressure on those laws." reads. 'We may place pressure so we get to be part of the decision-making process." Pressure, after all, means either a carrot or a stick. That's how pressure works. Either 'If we do what you want, we get something.' or 'If we don't do what you want, you do something we won't like'. And I have to say, that's pretty much tantamount to 'do what we say or else'. Is that really the statement you want to be making with no more justification than 'because we can do it'?
I didnt apologise for anything so, there is nothing to accept I suppose.
Also, I may not look the part but I am of Minmatar descent so again thats off the mark.
In any rate, Miss Arrendis, just for the record I wont keep on derailing Captain Rhiannon's post by turning this about me from now on. I have been very rather clear on what I have stated and what I meant, even with providing some explanations about your first questions regarding my initial posts. In case you want any more clarification we can always have a private chat.
Also, interesting ideas/perceptions you seem to have of what pressure is under a democratic regime. I do hope we can keep on debating on the actual points raised by Captain Rhiannon at some point again however. Enjoy your evening.
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Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
2166
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Posted - 2017.05.10 21:36:08 -
[92] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Valerie Valate wrote: Well. Here's the thing. The Empire has been attacked on more than one occasion, by various parties, using weaponry that is in the same league as "glassing", by which I mean bioweaponry used on civilian populations.
So,
Fine then.
They're not in the same league.
But they're at least playing the same sport.
Are you happy now ?
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
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Challis Drant
Gradient Electus Matari
18
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Posted - 2017.05.10 22:43:14 -
[93] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:
But the Empire can survive losing a Throne World.
Can the Minmatar survive losing Matar ?
We have already lost it once and we got it back - stands to reason on a historical basis we would get it back. Yeah it might be unable to support life for a very long time.... but for a period of time it was under Amarr control and not able to fully represent the Minmatar people. We have dealt with this before - we can do it again if needed.
The current four way standoff is far preferable to a three way standoff - it is so much easier to create a 2 on 1 in a three way system, getting a 3 vs 1 is a lot harder. And I am sure that even if a simple Brutor can work that out - so can a Caldari politician.
Combining EM and Ushra'Khan in the Great Wildlands would do nothing - it is already part of the Republic and therefore subject to Republic rule and laws - and trying to form a rump Matari state there or in any other region is Treason. "Someone" is going to have to come up with a very very good reason why a Corporation and Alliance that supports the Republic would be willing to head down a path that would lead to civil war - and that somehow we should be leading it rather than shooting at those who threaten the Republic.
Good luck with coming up with that reason. |
Jason Galente
Tempest Legion
1131
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Posted - 2017.05.10 22:49:04 -
[94] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Jason Galente wrote: People will only put up with that for so long in a democracy.. just saying.
Yeah, about as long as the Fed needs us to offset the combined strength of the Empire and State. Like I said: 4+3 = 5+2. Lose that 2, though...
I was talking more internally, but I see what you mean when it comes to international politics between the Fed and Republic. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement.
Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole.
And this foundation must be defended.
At any cost
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3523
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Posted - 2017.05.10 23:22:02 -
[95] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote: They're not in the same league.
But they're at least playing the same sport.
Are you happy now ?
Well, now that you've acknowledged your whole rationale for objecting to Miz's statement has fallen apart?
Yeah. I am. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3524
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Posted - 2017.05.10 23:36:26 -
[96] - Quote
Jason Galente wrote:I was talking more internally, but I see what you mean when it comes to international politics between the Fed and Republic. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement.
Right, and that mutual benefit is why the upper echelons of the Federal government will continue to sell foreign aid to the people: because they need the Republic. And the Republic needs that foreign aid. But neither side benefits from the cultural pressure that breeds resentment within the Republic, and gets the Federation populace wondering why the Matari are 'so ungrateful'. |
ValentinaDLM
Remember The Fallen. Atlas. Alliance
911
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Posted - 2017.05.11 08:41:48 -
[97] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:As much as I don't want to get involved in the disputes between the Empire and the Republic on an unpaid basis, you should remember that the State traditionally invades other peoples space under very specific circumstances - and neither Athra nor Pator contain the Caldari homeworld.
I would, personally, not participate in an Empire attack on the Republic, unless said war were in the best interests of the State. As others have said, it really isn't in the best interests of the State for EITHER of the expansionist powers to get stronger. In order to maintain our independence, we have to maintain a military strong enough to fight off any invader.
I think this is elementary statecraft. I can't believe the CEP doesn't see this, themselves. Whilst the State would certainly aid the Empire against an invasion by the Republic, I don't see us getting involved in an Imperial attack on the Republic. If anything, it's in the interests of the State for the Republic to get a bit stronger - in trade and military strength.
It is no secret that I broadly agree with your assessment, and think that stronger ties between the State and the Republic could be helpful to everyone. I think beyond anything though what the State and the Republic have, are that they are survivors who have known true strife and became stronger in the face of it. I wonder how the Empire or the Federation would react to a truly existential threat?
I am certainly no expert in statecraft or diplomacy, but I do know that when Of Questionable Repute, and Multicultural F1 Brigade teamed up to fight Sansha's Nation (and a few Gallente) in Black Rise, despite the different militia flags being flown, we both had mutual benefit from it, and I am far more comfortable working towards mutual benefit as it encourages us to be strong, whereas the Federation always seems to want to solve our problems for us, keeping us weak and resenting us for it. Don't get me wrong, the Federation isn't just as bad as the Amarr, but they both think their way is the best way for everyone, and that is incredibly dangerous thinking.
As for a solution to the problem of the main topic at hand, getting stronger is the only thing we really can do till the Tribes and the Sanmatar provide us with a solution, participating in the militia conflict or elsewhere, could actually make us stronger via experience, so I don't consider it a waste of resources. |
Victoria Grey
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
60
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Posted - 2017.05.11 21:21:41 -
[98] - Quote
Challis Drant wrote: The current four way standoff is far preferable to a three way standoff - it is so much easier to create a 2 on 1 in a three way system, getting a 3 vs 1 is a lot harder. And I am sure that even if a simple Brutor can work that out - so can a Caldari politician.
Combining EM and Ushra'Khan in the Great Wildlands would do nothing - it is already part of the Republic and therefore subject to Republic rule and laws - and trying to form a rump Matari state there or in any other region is Treason. "Someone" is going to have to come up with a very very good reason why a Corporation and Alliance that supports the Republic would be willing to head down a path that would lead to civil war - and that somehow we should be leading it rather than shooting at those who threaten the Republic.
Good luck with coming up with that reason.
I definitely do not want a civil war or the creation of a different Matari state. I love the Republic, The Sanmatar, and especially how complete we, as a nation, have become with all seven tribes back in the fold. If the news (recently with the Kyonoke Crises if nothing else) is anything to go by our science, crises response, and national cohesiveness is among the best and most advanced in the cluster and I'm proud of that.
No I just feel a little disheartened at how the Toy War seems pointless and ineffectual. How its continued existence seems to be a trap for capsuleers locking them out of any way to effectively support the Republic. To the point that I doubt anything would happen if we pulled out of it all together.
The idea of combining forces of EM and U'K was an idea based on romanticism I'll be honest. I just thought if two giants such as those two were to talk to each other, something might happen. Something beneficial, whatever they decided.
I guess the heart of it all, I feel there is more we could do to support our Tribes and the greater Republic than to just put our heads down and go through the motions of of the Toy War. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1658
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Posted - 2017.05.11 21:59:15 -
[99] - Quote
Challis, what the hell kind of drugs are you on? Matari entities taking advantage of the industrial resources of Great Wildlands as loyalists is treason, now? Leading to Civil War? For that matter, exactly who is threatening the Republic that needs you shooting them? The Pendulum Participants can't do anything in our space, no different from how we can do sod all in theirs, so unless you're talking about wetwork for the corps I have to admit I'm curious what you're talking about. If it is the corp wetwork stuff, well I can assure you there's even more to shoot in Great Wildlands in that regard.
As for good reasons... well, perhaps you haven't noticed but there's not exactly a significant number of loyalists around our space anymore. One of the reasons for that is quite simple: There's sod all to do there that is very worthwhile for a lot of capsuleers. Why do you think so many of us has kept bleeding out of Republic highsec and into all kinds of other entities? Off the top of my head, I can think of examples having joined Goons, Brave, Test, Mercenary Coalition, Hard Knocks, Dyslexia Paradox, even Provibloc and so on. The one thing these places have in common is that they try to reach a bit further than you can ever climb in highsec.
Industrialists, combat pilots, wetwork specialists, researchers and developers and so on.
So many of us have had to leave home behind because there was no more growth and challenge to be had there. Want a reason to try to carve out a piece of nullsec for Tribal loyalists? It might very well be the only way to keep any but the most timid from leaving it all behind in order to grow past the limitations inherent in highsec living. Null, even the claimed space like Great Wildlands, offer far greater challenges and opportunities for capsuleer entities, be it in terms of industry and development, capsuleer combat and more. And it offers the opportunity to build something that can matter, long term.
Or apparently it's 'treason' and cause for 'civil war', somehow. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3549
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Posted - 2017.05.11 22:02:14 -
[100] - Quote
Victoria Grey wrote: How its continued existence seems to be a trap for capsuleers locking them out of any way to effectively support the Republic.
Out of curiosity: how would you suggest capsuleers 'effectively support the Republic', and how does the Pendulum inhibit this? |
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3549
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Posted - 2017.05.11 22:07:21 -
[101] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Want a reason to try to carve out a piece of nullsec for Tribal loyalists? It might very well be the only way to keep any but the most timid from leaving it all behind in order to grow past the limitations inherent in highsec living. Null, even the claimed space like Great Wildlands, offer far greater challenges and opportunities for capsuleer entities, be it in terms of industry and development, capsuleer combat and more. And it offers the opportunity to build something that can matter, long term.
I admit, I'd be tempted by the idea of creating a Matar-aligned military-industrial powerbaseGÇöa real one, mind, something on the order of what I'm already seeing here, not just a couple of astrahus churning out a dozen Rifters a weekGÇöin null. I'm not even close to the person to lead that effort, for what should be obvious reasons, but I'd definitely be tempted.
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Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1658
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Posted - 2017.05.11 22:18:26 -
[102] - Quote
It'd be a long journey to something like that. You can't just conjure up the kind of manpower (with the expertise and experience required) to grab and hold even a single pocket out of nowhere. It'd have to start relatively small, out of simple practical necessity. Find a few suitable systems with decent logistics options to lowsec (i.e. within JF -and- capital jump distance) as the initial target, with middling to fair system resources. Far enough away from entities that'd be too much of a threat, close enough to contested space to offer combat pilots something to do, and few enough that they can be defended by the initial group of people.
Basically, the start of it all would have to act like a beach head, and a proof of concept rolled into one. So yeah, to begin with? Some citadels and ECs serving as a basic industry colony and combat staging while trying to entice people to come back from what would most certainly still be 'better' jobs.
Sotiyos, Keepstars and super production would be a very long way away yet, even if every loyalist I know of landed out in null tomorrow. Frankly, initial survival would rely more upon security through obscurity than force and numbers. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3550
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Posted - 2017.05.12 00:39:22 -
[103] - Quote
Honestly, I don't think it's possible to build up like that in the current landscape. There's simply no place that doesn't invite people 20-30j away to come looking for chum. If you don't have a reasonable escalation path, you'll be kicked around by groups willing to drop capitals. If you do have a capital escalation path, you just ring the dinner bell for nearby groups with a supercapital escalation pathway.
So unless you roll in with a force the locals can't kick, you can't really establish that beachhead. And if you do have that kind of force, you need to get the fortifications up and running in pretty short order, or the sharks from farther away will start angling closer. |
Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
919
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Posted - 2017.05.12 06:41:09 -
[104] - Quote
No one survives without diplomacy.
As strength goes.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders Electus Matari
895
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Posted - 2017.05.12 08:11:38 -
[105] - Quote
I like you, sisters; keep on talking. |
ValentinaDLM
Remember The Fallen. Atlas. Alliance
913
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Posted - 2017.05.12 08:52:28 -
[106] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:No one survives without diplomacy.
This reminds me, when I did run an alliance, upon winning our first battle for sovereignty over a system against a local alliance, many voices called for us to go on the offensive, whereas instead Lowhyres and I decided to pursue an arrangement with them instead. In the glory of victory, many are blinded to the realities of war. While we had the strength to beat a similar sized alliance to our own, that alliance was part of Vanguard, and the next fight would have just seen them ask for help and crush us.
There was no loyalist alliance or coalition at the time, or at the present that could stand against Vanguard or any of the large coalitions and It will not be that a new alliance or coalition forms that would have such strength. You don't need to have that though, you just need to be willing to negotiate and fight to defend yourselves and your allies.
There are plenty of options to have a loyalist alliance, or better still coalition of alliances, but none of them involve being able to beat down anyone who may come to fight you. It would depend on doing something useful for the alliances who already had space in that area, from providing industrial services, to isk, to combat strength, or even in the case of the QFC fighting for the amusement of the Imperium, et cetera. |
Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
1337
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Posted - 2017.05.12 10:51:39 -
[107] - Quote
'Just saying' indeed...
For what little it is worth coming from me, I hope you find your way out of the Pendulumn War and towards peace. Though maybe the State and Republic had some of the best reasons at the start for it all, I hope one day all sides will be able to reapproach the serenity we all once had. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1663
|
Posted - 2017.05.12 10:56:14 -
[108] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:No one survives without diplomacy.
Absolutely. I didn't touch upon this because I don't have a diplomatic bone in my body and that job would have to go to literally anybody else in this hypothetical scenario. The trick would be being able to have balanced diplomatic statuses in the region, reducing the threats enough to allow for such a project to thrive, while still having enough of a threat that would allow the combat pilots to thrive or they'd eventually go elsewhere.
Arrendis, I don't think that holds true. There's of course always a chance that some big entity will come raze the sandcastles for fun and all, but it's nowhere near a certainty. More importantly, by balancing investment with capability such an event could even be a good thing, galvanizing the people involved and teaching a few lessons about hardship but also about how resilient a capsuleer entity can be out there. No matter how big the enemy, it takes significant effort to render an area of space unusable or us impotent, and who's going to bother going through such effort for so little gain? Consider your own 'weaponized boredom' dogmas, and now consider how that would be in play for the bigger entities even if we actively worked against that.
With the current infrastructure options available to capsuleers, combined with the initial low value - relatively, it'd still be significant compared to highsec - of the project and space, I think such an endeavor would indeed get stomped on once in a while, but nowhere near enough to actually kill it or even render it inefficient. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3556
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Posted - 2017.05.12 14:20:52 -
[109] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:No one survives without diplomacy.
Very true, but diplomacy requires having something to offer. Most of the residents of inhabited space don't exactly want new folks coming in with the intention of taking over. So coming in small... doesn't really give you much to offer them. Coming in in force... lets you at least offer them 'we won't kill you, either'. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3556
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Posted - 2017.05.12 14:35:54 -
[110] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote: Arrendis, I don't think that holds true. There's of course always a chance that some big entity will come raze the sandcastles for fun and all, but it's nowhere near a certainty. More importantly, by balancing investment with capability such an event could even be a good thing, galvanizing the people involved and teaching a few lessons about hardship but also about how resilient a capsuleer entity can be out there. No matter how big the enemy, it takes significant effort to render an area of space unusable or us impotent, and who's going to bother going through such effort for so little gain? Consider your own 'weaponized boredom' dogmas, and now consider how that would be in play for the bigger entities even if we actively worked against that.
I don't necessarily disagree that a full-on purge would be more effort than it's worth, but you don't need a full-on purge. You only need enough harassment to make it impossible for the smaller group to actively make use of the space they're trying to rely on for their income.
Consider: Reavers deployed into CO2 space about a month or two ago. You may remember the 'itchy hull' incident? We took less than 100 people, and without any real effort, cut down their use of an entire region by about 80%. Yes, it bounced back in relatively short order after the first week or so, but that was still a very small proprtionate number of people, crippling the income and production capabilities of a nearly 5,000-member alliance. Literally less than 5% of their numbers cost them 80% of their income. And the only reason it bounced back is their response to anyone decloaking was to drop a few dozen supercarriers. That kind of disproportionate response won't be available in this scenario.
Come in with a few hundred, and it won't take much more than thirty or forty people to shut down most revenue streams and send everyone hunkering down and waiting for a target to hit. Weaponized boredom works both ways. |
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3556
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Posted - 2017.05.12 14:40:29 -
[111] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:I hope one day all sides will be able to reapproach the serenity we all once had.
Which would have been when? Ain't been a lot of serenity in my lifetime.
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Telemicus Thrace
Lucky Fedo Trading Co.
26
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Posted - 2017.05.19 13:50:04 -
[112] - Quote
While my recollection of history is more in line with Ayallah than Elsebeth I must confess I like the direction this conversation has taken.
Electus Matari and Ushra'Khan uniting to build a prosperous future for the Tribes. What a sight that would be.
Impossible.
But doable. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1819
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Posted - 2017.05.19 14:17:32 -
[113] - Quote
Electus Matari and Ushra'Khan uniting would be a catastrophe. We've already seen once what happens when one gravity well attracts everything within reach and then reaches critical mass. We don't need another single point of failure going off again. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders Electus Matari
925
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Posted - 2017.05.19 14:32:01 -
[114] - Quote
Telemicus Thrace wrote:words Well now, there is a name I haven't seen for a while. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders Electus Matari
925
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Posted - 2017.05.19 14:34:21 -
[115] - Quote
Also, let me stress, once more, that I do not currently speak for EM, in this thread or elsewhere.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3713
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Posted - 2017.05.19 14:57:08 -
[116] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:I do not currently speak for EM
WHO SPEAKS FOR KIN/THERM?!?
Sorry, I'm in a weird mood.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders Electus Matari
925
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Posted - 2017.05.19 15:01:19 -
[117] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:I do not currently speak for EM WHO SPEAKS FOR KIN/THERM?!?Sorry, I'm in a weird mood.
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KillJoy Tseng
SoE Roughriders Electus Matari
7
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Posted - 2017.05.19 15:59:20 -
[118] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:... I believe many in the alliance are sympathetic to what I say and/or to what others have seen in this thread... You mean like those of us who signed up for a corp you were heading? |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders Electus Matari
948
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Posted - 2017.05.19 16:01:51 -
[119] - Quote
KillJoy Tseng wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:... I believe many in the alliance are sympathetic to what I say and/or to what others have seen in this thread... You mean like those of us who signed up for a corp you were heading? Well, some of you are probably just in to keep an eye on me. One of those morbid curiosity things. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1835
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Posted - 2017.05.19 16:05:52 -
[120] - Quote
Just sayin', I bloody called it. |
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