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Nero Winger
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.14 12:00:00 -
[31]
removing caps out of game isnt that funny at all like you would think it is.
just remember the old days where you had to take 200 Apocs fitted with heat sinks II and cap recharger to take out a pos. you really want these days to come back?
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Jacque Custeau
Knights of the Minmatar Republic
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Posted - 2007.05.14 12:02:00 -
[32]
I don't think comparing capital ship profileration to RL arms races of the last century is valid. There is no mutual assured destruction in EvE, and capital ships are not pilotless weapons that can be remotely fired from a system to points across the galaxy and be capable of destroying all stations (cities) and ships (people) in a system. I doubt CCP will ever introduce such an ability, and if they do, then one can start talking about limiting proliferation. That is, if everyone does not quit EvE first (or it gets nuked to hell in 48 hours). ------------------- 09:F9:11:02:9D:74:E3:5B:D8:41:56:C5:63:56:88:C0 |
Karim alRashid
Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.05.14 12:25:00 -
[33]
Originally by: fire 59
BoD vs the coalition of family value's
Here, fixed it for ya, at least partially. The possesive deictic is missing a noun, it seems.
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AeKi
Dragonian Freelancers CORE.
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Posted - 2007.05.14 12:46:00 -
[34]
I think eve atm has a majour prob capitals are basically ruining pvp but so as some ppl said blobs of 800 balckbirds ( no names metioned). I personally aint got a clue on a answer but i think that 1 prob has been solved with one that could be bigger cap blobs and soon super cap blobs. I can see alot of the what older players call pvp happening more in low sec and npc regions, mainly due to the fact you really dont need poses. I also think that the way eve is atm it could put off alot newer players. Some will say oh well but every game needs fresh blood and if the blood looks at game and thinks what chance do i have and why am i training these big ships when there are all these others, to be told well dd kinda made them all pointless.
ppl will say look another none cap pilot yeap i dont fly caps why? cause basically i dont like them yeap they do a great job and are prob fun if both sides have same ammount and are willing to go head to head (dont seem to happen much). I have got an idea thats gonna get flames to hell but hey seeing as op is my r/l bro i might as well keep it up .... open a second server where caps aint aloud and all the ppl that want old school pvp go there.The ones who love caps so much stay here . |
Auman
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.14 12:49:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Auman on 14/05/2007 12:47:27
Originally by: Frogzuk interestingly the cap fleets are posing a problem for many smaller alliances that are unable to counter the cap blob.
What smaller alliances are you talking about? Is it the new alliances in the new regions? As far as I was aware there isn't anyone fighting in a particularly unfair conflict (cap ship availability wise).
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.14 12:57:00 -
[36]
Originally by: AeKi I think eve atm has a majour prob capitals are basically ruining pvp but so as some ppl said blobs of 800 balckbirds ( no names metioned). I personally aint got a clue on a answer but i think that 1 prob has been solved with one that could be bigger cap blobs and soon super cap blobs. I can see alot of the what older players call pvp happening more in low sec and npc regions, mainly due to the fact you really dont need poses. I also think that the way eve is atm it could put off alot newer players. Some will say oh well but every game needs fresh blood and if the blood looks at game and thinks what chance do i have and why am i training these big ships when there are all these others, to be told well dd kinda made them all pointless.
ppl will say look another none cap pilot yeap i dont fly caps why? cause basically i dont like them yeap they do a great job and are prob fun if both sides have same ammount and are willing to go head to head (dont seem to happen much). I have got an idea thats gonna get flames to hell but hey seeing as op is my r/l bro i might as well keep it up .... open a second server where caps aint aloud and all the ppl that want old school pvp go there.The ones who love caps so much stay here .
I guess what you are trying to say is that if Alliances are not willing to invest in their members, and are not willing to invest and develop their fleet in order gain benifits of conquarable space, then they should stay in NPC 0.0 stations as they dont really deserve conquarable space. Fair enough point.
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Billion Isk Mission |
AeKi
Dragonian Freelancers CORE.
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Posted - 2007.05.14 13:02:00 -
[37]
Err no i was saying that caps aint needed to take over npc space ask COW what i was saying is that ppl who dont want to go cap will prob stay in npc cause then they dont gotta worry about poses quite simple really it wasnt a snipe at anyone but hey not often you can say something on here without ppl trying to find another meaning |
ALPHA12125
Gallente 0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.05.14 13:08:00 -
[38]
Edited by: ALPHA12125 on 14/05/2007 13:06:44 why is everybody saying that capitals are the end of all eve and there is no pvp left ?
in the last year we have been once or twice totally outblobbed by capitals ,when engaging an enemy, that we had to retreat. we jumped through a gate and killed their support on the other side while the carriers waited to get cap to jump.
there still is loads of and loads of smallscale pvp around and you dont even have to search for it. we fought d2 on numerous occasion, we fought bob on numerous occasions and aaa. 9 out of 10 times those fights no side even had a carrier outside, let alone mothership or titan.
you gotta make your own fun in this game.
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FuzzBuzz
Caldari Templars of Space CORE.
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Posted - 2007.05.14 13:21:00 -
[39]
what the op says will never happen, the people in this game want to win so much that they will use any method apart from hacking the game to meet the needs.
i could of bought a carrier pilot quite easily, but i thought, why should i buy some ship that will get mostly used for carrier runs and to be lagged out when i go into fleet battles. so i bought a pvp character and has along way off to become a carrier/dread pilot. fleet warfare aint for me, its ****e. thinking otherwise is a lie.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.05.14 13:32:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 14/05/2007 13:32:55
Originally by: Fitz Chivalry
Originally by: Dark Shikari a) sucking up to the power block threatening you
...must....resist....obvious....joke....strength....fading....must...attempt...keep....resist
/me explodes.
Well for example, with FIX, it leaves us with three choices:
a) Ally with BoB + friends b) Ally with Coalition + friends c) Leave 0.0
And as with any other small alliance, there is no "stand and fight" choice. The power of today's MegaCapitalBlobs ensure that even small alliances cannot claim space and stay neutral.
Do you remember a year or two ago, when there was a diplomacy chart with relations between alliances? Back then, the relations weren't obvious; every alliance had its own opinion on things. There were no MegaCapitalBlobs and massive power blocks. Most alliances were free to choose their foreign policy.
But today, if you hold space, you're basically forced into a power block whether you want it or not. Its pretty sad, IMO. A diplomacy chart isn't even needed anymore because you can accurately guess an alliance's foreign relations simply by their color on the map.
--23 Member--
Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! |
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Draconiss
Gallente AUS Corporation CORE.
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Posted - 2007.05.14 13:43:00 -
[41]
Originally by: nickycakes
Originally by: Frogzuk
Its is not healthy for eve and its not healthy for the casual gamers who are light years beind in skills.
How exactly is it "not healthy for eve". And how would being a casual gamer put you behind in skillpoints?
This isn't wow. The game isn't designed to be an even field for "casual gamers". Put in more work, get more in return. Put in less work, get less in return, whine on forums.
Put in more WORK not exactly the casual gamers mantra ...we game to relax & have fun!!!! gaming isn't supposed to be a second JOB I already have a JOB ....and it ain't playing EvE
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Johana Walker
Lonestar Squadron
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Posted - 2007.05.14 13:57:00 -
[42]
Not going to happen. Have you done the math. Some(tm) of the current capship blobs would cost over $100,000 USD if you where to fund purchase of them with GTC sales. The only way we're going to have an "arms control treaty" is if CCP decides to put a $20,000 per side cap on fleets.
The real world value of the cap ship superblob is one of the best kept secrets in EvE as folks won't quit the game over "they kicked our ass" but will quit over "there blob that costs more than my house kicked our ass".
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Johana Walker
Lonestar Squadron
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Posted - 2007.05.14 14:00:00 -
[43]
Not going to happen. Have you done the math. Some(tm) of the current capship blobs would cost over $100,000 USD if you where to fund purchase of them with GTC sales. The only way we're going to have an "arms control treaty" is if CCP decides to put a $20,000 per side cap on fleets.
The real world value of the cap ship superblob is one of the best kept secrets in EvE as folks won't quit the game over "they kicked our ass" but will quit over "there blob that costs more than my house kicked our ass".
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Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.05.14 14:29:00 -
[44]
The real problem with cap ships is that their lack of maneuverability and EW usefullness means that whoever has the most of them is almost guaranteed to win.
A crafty fleet commander can't really hope to pull off any miraculous victories in a cap ship slugfest. Its all about numbers, and how expensive your fittings are. This is not the case in normal gang PvP, where the best pilots can often win while outnumbered by quite a bit.
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Havras
The Syndicate Inc DeStInY.
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Posted - 2007.05.14 14:38:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Havras on 14/05/2007 14:38:21
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Well for example, with FIX, it leaves us with three choices:
a) Ally with BoB + friends b) Ally with Coalition + friends c) Leave 0.0
And as with any other small alliance, there is no "stand and fight" choice. The power of today's MegaCapitalBlobs ensure that even small alliances cannot claim space and stay neutral.
Do you remember a year or two ago, when there was a diplomacy chart with relations between alliances? Back then, the relations weren't obvious; every alliance had its own opinion on things. There were no MegaCapitalBlobs and massive power blocks. Most alliances were free to choose their foreign policy.
But today, if you hold space, you're basically forced into a power block whether you want it or not. Its pretty sad, IMO. A diplomacy chart isn't even needed anymore because you can accurately guess an alliance's foreign relations simply by their color on the map.
And this is the part that is hurtfull to Eve.. smaller alliances have absolutely NO choice but to suck up to a larger power block. They really can't go out and achieve and grow on their own and... believe it or not, not everyone WANTS to pay rent/kiss someone else's arse in order to have a shot in 0.0.
Left with the choice of being stuck in Empire or having to join one of the large powerblocks to get anywhere in the game I've pretty much stopped playing. Oh, sure, I still keep my accounts up to date and skills training but what I see happening in 0.0 these days is not my idea of fun. Oh.. and no... I'm not a new player... though I'm not an old vet either.
edit: Yes I'm fully aware of the alliance tag under my name. <shrug> Like I said I'm not really playing much so it doesn't matter to me.
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Tzrailasa
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.14 15:39:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Obivan Efa Best way to solve this problem - ship class restrictions in 1 system. CCP should limit ship types allowed in 1 system same time. For example for each side: 1 Titan 2 Mothers 5-10 Dreads 5 Carriers 30-50 BSs 70+ smallships
Or so on.. It will bring more tactical solutions on field, less lag, less blob, more local fights, more war parties. Epic Wars will be as large front fights instead of 1 MEGAUBERSUPERULTRABLOBBYBADABOOM!!!!1111one11eleven!!! I think it would bring much fun for all.
The problem with this solution, as well as any other solution requiring imposed limits, is the definition of 'side'....
It has to be done in a way that can be determined by the NODE, not by people. In reality, it'll be impossible....
My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance. |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.05.14 15:43:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Obivan Efa Best way to solve this problem - ship class restrictions in 1 system. CCP should limit ship types allowed in 1 system same time. For example for each side: 1 Titan 2 Mothers 5-10 Dreads 5 Carriers 30-50 BSs 70+ smallships
Or so on.. It will bring more tactical solutions on field, less lag, less blob, more local fights, more war parties. Epic Wars will be as large front fights instead of 1 MEGAUBERSUPERULTRABLOBBYBADABOOM!!!!1111one11eleven!!! I think it would bring much fun for all.
The problem with this solution, as well as any other solution requiring imposed limits, is the definition of 'side'....
It has to be done in a way that can be determined by the NODE, not by people. In reality, it'll be impossible....
True. Theoretically nice, practically impossible.
But I agree it would probably be tons more fun to have two fleets squaring off with say 20 BS, 50 cruisers and 80 frigs each, than two fleets of 120 BS, 10 cruisers and 20 frigs.
Eve is just too much of a sandbox game to allow anything like this to happen. signature removed - please contact us to find out why (include the URL of your sig) - Jacques([email protected]) |
Bashiri
Caldari Point-Zero SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.14 16:11:00 -
[48]
maybe you need to head back to empire were you wont see a titan or mothership
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fire 59
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.14 16:23:00 -
[49]
Originally by: wdwm Katarr
Originally by: fire 59 Interesting idea but i personally wouldn't trust some of our enemies as far as i could throw them.
Yet we can rely on your Alliance to be above it all? /cheapshot
To the OP, I can see your concerns. But eventually if things get to far out of whack I'm sure CCP will level the playing field in some form or the other.
I don't see why not, we do as we say and say as we do
BoB vs the coalition of family value's |
fire 59
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.14 16:24:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Karim alRashid
Originally by: fire 59
BoD vs the coalition of family value's
Here, fixed it for ya, at least partially. The possesive deictic is missing a noun, it seems.
Is that meant to be funny? Goon humour strikes, wrecking for omg i wish i was funny too damage
BoB vs the coalition of family value's |
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Je'hira Osiris
Minmatar Knights of Chaos Chaos Incarnate.
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Posted - 2007.05.14 16:24:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Obivan Efa Best way to solve this problem - ship class restrictions in 1 system. CCP should limit ship types allowed in 1 system same time. For example for each side: 1 Titan 2 Mothers 5-10 Dreads 5 Carriers 30-50 BSs 70+ smallships
Or so on.. It will bring more tactical solutions on field, less lag, less blob, more local fights, more war parties. Epic Wars will be as large front fights instead of 1 MEGAUBERSUPERULTRABLOBBYBADABOOM!!!!1111one11eleven!!! I think it would bring much fun for all.
WFT!!! silliest idea int he world. sit a titan in a system you dont want to loos with 15 dread int he station how will you ever loose that system Respect can be found for your enemy.... its jus a case of how hard you wanna look...
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Joshua Foiritain
Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.05.14 16:50:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Johana Walker Not going to happen. Have you done the math. Some(tm) of the current capship blobs would cost over $100,000 USD if you where to fund purchase of them with GTC sales. The only way we're going to have an "arms control treaty" is if CCP decides to put a $20,000 per side cap on fleets.
The real world value of the cap ship superblob is one of the best kept secrets in EvE as folks won't quit the game over "they kicked our ass" but will quit over "there blob that costs more than my house kicked our ass".
Or instead of worrying about spending real life money on eve you could of course... you know.. play the game...
The value of cap fleets is absolutely irrelevant in this discussion and people who think they need to spend money to advance in eve are idiots. -----
[Coreli Corporation Mainfrane] |
Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.14 17:26:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 14/05/2007 17:28:06 The op is caught up in an old world vieuw.
Eve online, with the introduction of pos and capitals, got given a new superseding layer of political and territorial play.
Eve's layers (for want of a better description) have evolved from:
2003: corp > individual 2003/04: alliance (informal) > corp > individual 2005/06: alliance (formal, territorial) > corp > individual 2006/07: empire > alliance (territorial) >= alliance (non-territorial) > corp > individual.
Anyone could see this coming. BoB is just one of the first alliances evolving into an empire. And yes, there's little that any single alliance, territorial or not, can do against an empire. It's high time however that a few other alliances get together and form another empire. At least then this structure gets interesting in the longer run, as empries duke it out at the top level and alliances fight on the more traditional level that mostly involves regular non-cap warfare.
That's what alot of them want anyway isn't it ? No pos warfare, no cap arms race, just good old duking it out with a couple fleets over actual space control, not sovereignty ?
Give it some time and you'll get your wish, while the huge capital fleets are employed against eachother the sub-alliances as parts of empires can do their thing against eachother.
Just don't expect to conquer entire regions anymore when you're not at the empire level. Instead of conquering it however, you can populate it and have the same practical benefits without requiring you to compete directly on the empire level.
I guess we kind of hoped that there's be three empires forming. North, SE, SW. The northern one does seem to need a new incarnation tho, and pretty quickly too.
[center] Old blog |
Tzrailasa
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.14 17:37:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Tzrailasa My stuff...
True. Theoretically nice, practically impossible.
But I agree it would probably be tons more fun to have two fleets squaring off with say 20 BS, 50 cruisers and 80 frigs each, than two fleets of 120 BS, 10 cruisers and 20 frigs.
Eve is just too much of a sandbox game to allow anything like this to happen.
What I think could be a way of separating the big fights we have now (big as in: 'big ships'), is if several new regions (and not just a small area like last time, but perhaps the size of 1/2 current 0.0) were added to the EVE universe where cyno-fields couldn't operate. Some reason would have to be thought up for why only small POS' could be anchored and you couldn't produce capitals.
These new areas shouldn't be as profitable as current 0.0, but could still be down to maybe -0.3 real sec level.
I'm sure there're holes to be poked in the idea, but the basic idea is to get an area of space where small alliances can carve out their own space competing with similar entities.
My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance. |
Blacklight
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.14 17:44:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 14/05/2007 17:28:06 The op is caught up in an old world vieuw.
Eve online, with the introduction of pos and capitals, got given a new superseding layer of political and territorial play.
Eve's layers (for want of a better description) have evolved from:
2003: corp > individual 2003/04: alliance (informal) > corp > individual 2005/06: alliance (formal, territorial) > corp > individual 2006/07: empire > alliance (territorial) >= alliance (non-territorial) > corp > individual.
Anyone could see this coming. BoB is just one of the first alliances evolving into an empire. And yes, there's little that any single alliance, territorial or not, can do against an empire. It's high time however that a few other alliances get together and form another empire. At least then this structure gets interesting in the longer run, as empries duke it out at the top level and alliances fight on the more traditional level that mostly involves regular non-cap warfare.
That's what alot of them want anyway isn't it ? No pos warfare, no cap arms race, just good old duking it out with a couple fleets over actual space control, not sovereignty ?
Give it some time and you'll get your wish, while the huge capital fleets are employed against eachother the sub-alliances as parts of empires can do their thing against eachother.
Just don't expect to conquer entire regions anymore when you're not at the empire level. Instead of conquering it however, you can populate it and have the same practical benefits without requiring you to compete directly on the empire level.
I guess we kind of hoped that there's be three empires forming. North, SE, SW. The northern one does seem to need a new incarnation tho, and pretty quickly too.
The next layer of social grouping within Eve was actually discussed a little and the fact that there was some debate (perhaps only at the 'chat informally over beers after work' stage) within CCP about it was eluded to at the 2005 Fanfest. I think if I am not mistaken it was Kjartan Pierre Emilsson who discussed it.
Found a reference to it here.
From the timetable...
Quote: 15:00 empires
Kjartan goes into social structures in EVE, where enabling trust relationships at multiple levels will hopefully lead to larger social structures in the game, world domination and of course, death.
I remember discussing it with some of the other BoB guys back in 2005 both at and after the Fanfest. So to those who think about their Eve play more deeply than 'do I press F1 or F2 next' and for anyone who actually plans their corporation or alliance's future properly the evolution of social structures within Eve to the next level should certainly not be any great surprise.
Blog
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fightnkill
Dark Blade Incorporated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.14 17:48:00 -
[56]
Edited by: fightnkill on 14/05/2007 17:48:20 well since new players can't counter cap blobs, only 2 possibilities
a) Quit Eve b) Join a powerful alliance
I believe it's very difficult for a new player to start a new alliance/corp that can counter a cap blob nowadays. (With the exception of Goonswarm, mucho respects to them )
same goes for players that are on the losing side. No point of playing Eve if one group won the game already
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Lenaria
Caldari Draconis Navitas Aeterna
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Posted - 2007.05.14 18:04:00 -
[57]
Capfleet blobs is thing of the past. Supercaps blob - FOTM now. Right now BOB fielded 4 titans and 6 motherships in 9-9.
============================================== 1 Titan is ok, 2 kills any fun, 3 make peoples quit eve. No wonder online numbers decline for 3rd month. |
Ace Frehley
Minmatar Fist of the Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.14 18:32:00 -
[58]
Who cares about capships and claiming station. Just invite yourself in to someones space or live in npc-regions.
inappropriate content removed - Deckard |
Obivan Efa
The Machines
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Posted - 2007.05.15 06:13:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Obivan Efa Best way to solve this problem - ship class restrictions in 1 system. CCP should limit ship types allowed in 1 system same time. For example for each side: 1 Titan 2 Mothers 5-10 Dreads 5 Carriers 30-50 BSs 70+ smallships
Or so on.. It will bring more tactical solutions on field, less lag, less blob, more local fights, more war parties. Epic Wars will be as large front fights instead of 1 MEGAUBERSUPERULTRABLOBBYBADABOOM!!!!1111one11eleven!!! I think it would bring much fun for all.
The problem with this solution, as well as any other solution requiring imposed limits, is the definition of 'side'....
It has to be done in a way that can be determined by the NODE, not by people. In reality, it'll be impossible....
Definition of side... hmm it whould be a hard way. Maybe this kind of restrictions should be linked with "victory conditions" announced by DEVs some time ago. For example. U could use BIG anti-POS Capships only if u declared off. war with exact victory conditions (capture outpost or destroy pos-shipyard)... in other cases u just can't use Titans, Dreads, Mothers in fleets...
Some more ideas... 1)Combined arms bonus - bonus for fleet with appropriate number and type balance and formation (+5-15% bonus to attack capabilities) 2)Stacking penalty for large bulky overnumbered fleets (for example -75% to all stats) ____________________________
Die, but perish! - viking's war-cry |
Drakma
Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai
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Posted - 2007.05.15 06:34:00 -
[60]
Originally by: nickycakes ... The game isn't designed to be an even field for "casual gamers". ...
This is true. I remember when I bought the game at Best Buy nearly 4 years ago, there was a yellow sticker right on the front that said, "For hardcore players only!"
</sarcasm>
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