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Frogzuk Dragonian Freelancers CORE.	Posted - 2007.05.14 09:55:00 - [1] interestingly the cap fleets are posing a problem for many smaller alliances that are unable to counter the cap blob. Just wondered what pilots thought about this arms race to have the biggest baddest cap fleet in game. Its is not healthy for eve and its not healthy for the casual gamers who are light years beind in skills. I propose that the major alliances sign up to the cap fleet arms race treaty, thus they all agree to remove titans and motherships from front lines. This treaty will stay in effect until such a time that these ships are no longer destroying eve for what it is ... a pvp game. This treaty could restore the faith in newer players to enjoy the thrills of pvp, this treaty would even the playing field somewhat, but not take away the likes of BoB / RA ability to pawn smaller alliances. Its an idea, and most good things come form ideas.... froggy
Scagga Laebetrovo Delictum 23216	Posted - 2007.05.14 10:00:00 - [2] The huge demand for minerals incurred is good for the primary economy, where many of the newer pilots may decide to start. Delictum 23216 Official forums
Keeto Digital Fury Corporation	Posted - 2007.05.14 10:01:00 - [3] Does not seem advantageous to anyone but the weak, and while that is the point of this thread I am not sure the major players are going to let their guard down with no guarantee that their enemy will do the same. Interesting idea though.
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.14 10:10:00 - [4] Interesting idea but i personally wouldn't trust some of our enemies as far as i could throw them. BoB vs the coalition of family value's
Angor The JORG Corporation FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.14 10:13:00 - [5] Edited by: Angor on 14/05/2007 10:13:28 Well at least with the dev blog changes, POS's will be better equipt to defend themselves... I doubt against 150 capitals though. In the next year this is only going to get worse, i wouldnt be supprised to see 400 dreads take down 1 POS by the end of this year. _______________________________ Who the f*k stole my sig...
Tassi Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.05.14 10:18:00 - [6] This ain't a scene it's a goddamn ...
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.14 10:21:00 - [7] In a way, the massive blobs are forcing diplomacy on smaller alliances. In one way, this is a good thing. On the other hand, "diplomacy" in this case either means: a) sucking up to the power block threatening you b) join someone else's power block hoping they can defend you --23 Member-- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio!
Liu Kaskakka PAK	Posted - 2007.05.14 10:28:00 - [8] Err, so someone who doesn't have a titan proposes a pact that bans titans? You think USA or Russia would say "OK!" if Finland said 'Let's ban nukes and all other advanced weaponry!'? King Liu is RIGHT!!
nickycakes Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.14 10:32:00 - [9] Originally by: Frogzuk Its is not healthy for eve and its not healthy for the casual gamers who are light years beind in skills. How exactly is it "not healthy for eve". And how would being a casual gamer put you behind in skillpoints? This isn't wow. The game isn't designed to be an even field for "casual gamers". Put in more work, get more in return. Put in less work, get less in return, whine on forums.
Gaia Thorn Infestation.	Posted - 2007.05.14 10:36:00 - [10] I can understand your thinking. The problem is just gonna grown worse everyday that passes soon everyone can fly a capital ship and combine that with the 700 people cap limit on systems (i think was introduced) that means 400 dreads jump into local and support rendering the defenders toothless. For me capitals are slowly killing eve since the time of a good old fashioned gate camp or beeing chased in a hauler in 0.0 down towards empire has come to a end. Now adays every corp in 0.0 invests in a carrier and whaamo no haulers going through 0.0 space. Just jump totaly care free except for the 15 seconds timer after a jump.

Namtuk Minmatar Dynaverse Corporation	Posted - 2007.05.14 10:43:00 - [11] Edited by: Namtuk on 14/05/2007 10:41:19 Edited by: Namtuk on 14/05/2007 10:41:06 Edited by: Namtuk on 14/05/2007 10:40:45 Selected Rules of Acquisition: 02: The best deal is the one that brings the most profit. 12: Anything worth doing is worth doing for money. 34: War is good for business. 35: Peace is good for business. 58: There is no substitute for success. 59: Free advice is seldom cheap.
Minigin Ganja Labs Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.14 10:45:00 - [12] can you honestly imagine telling molle "we know you've spent isk for 4 titans and tens of motherships... but please sir... can you remove them from battle?" Your signature <----- My awsome Sig Real men PVP on the Forums.
WhiteSnake Generals Of Destruction Syndicate Terror In The System	Posted - 2007.05.14 10:54:00 - [13] capital fleets ruin eve, while blobs doesnt? send a petition: hey I got a small alliance, could we nerf large alliances so I can engage them? also I cant fly recon ships, nerf those ships too in fact nerf everyhting but frigates, so all the rook pilots can compete the veterans cheers m8.
Jacque Custeau Knights of the Minmatar Republic	Posted - 2007.05.14 10:57:00 - [14] I know lots of people hate it when vets say "remember when...." but I think this applies here. Capital Ships got introduced after people spent months twiddling their thumbs and wondering what was next. POS's were introduced after huge demand that people be able to deploy structures in space. Conquerables came after people complained that taking advantage of station-less regions was difficult. POS sovereignty mechanics came to reduce the frustration of station ping pong (charging up station shields anyone?). Starbases were demanded pretty much in the first week in the game. Everything everyone is complaining about with regards to territorial control was implemented by player demand. And in revelations 2 more big changes are coming based on player demand. CCP listening to its customers is good for EvE. ------------------- 09:F9:11:02:9D:74:E3:5B:D8:41:56:C5:63:56:88:C0
Radeberger Caldari Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2007.05.14 11:05:00 - [15] Seriously whatever happened to the so-called big capital ship program of the goons? Surely if they can do it so can you, it's all a matter of dedication and thorough planning Maybe you don't want to put the time into it, if that is so, then you have yourself to blame. now stop whining, get out there and get it done Is this a sig? i think not
StarSearcher	Posted - 2007.05.14 11:05:00 - [16] Originally by: Gaia Thorn I can understand your thinking. The problem is just gonna grown worse everyday that passes soon everyone can fly a capital ship and combine that with the 700 people cap limit on systems (i think was introduced) that means 400 dreads jump into local and support rendering the defenders toothless. * Snipped away the rest * All these continued claims about 700 ppl cap limit confuses me. I petitioned the question to the GM's, and the answer was that there had never been, and there were no plans on cap'ing the amount of people in one system. Did anyone else petition the GMs regarding this and got any different answer?
Topaz Skydiver Minmatar Narrative Freshfood	Posted - 2007.05.14 11:29:00 - [17] Agree to King Liu and Tassi. It's just unrealistic. If one side demands no supercapital ships, then the other side will demand something like no 400-man newbie blobs. I doubt that people come to an agreement and if they really make one, then it doesn't take long and one side says: 'You broke our agreement !' or complain that something wasn't fair and the agreement gets canceled by one side. EVE has never been a 'Lets have a nice fair pvp-match and be all friends !' game.
heavyg Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.14 11:30:00 - [18] Edited by: heavyg on 14/05/2007 11:28:30 No, no enforced cap of 700, the node just crashes thats all.. :D
cheru Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.14 11:33:00 - [19] Originally by: Frogzuk interestingly the cap fleets are posing a problem for many smaller alliances that are unable to counter the cap blob. Just wondered what pilots thought about this arms race to have the biggest baddest cap fleet in game. Its is not healthy for eve and its not healthy for the casual gamers who are light years beind in skills. ... Imho it is not capital ships per se that cause the big imbalance, but a combination of relatively small aspects. Supercapital's immunity to scramblers, smartbombs vs dictor bubbles and the good ol' lag in fleetbattles that makes cunning tactical maneuvers rather difficult. A fleet of 200 (t2) frigs/cruisers should indeed be able to kill a mothership or two, like 10 frigs can kill a BS, but at the current state the MS will just warp/cyno out (or tank them endlessly :D).. Originally by: Frogzuk ... This treaty will stay in effect until such a time that these ships are no longer destroying eve for what it is ... a pvp game. This treaty could restore the faith in newer players to enjoy the thrills of pvp, ... I don't see why small, young alliances should be able to take big, old alliances head on. To make years of training, earnings and organisation pointless won't do the "pvp game Eve" any good. Yes, the space claiming game is dominated by the ones with the most skills, isk and "plan" (doh), but you absolutely don't have to go where the big, scary cap blobs are to "enjoy the thrills of pvp", as long as your POSes don't force you to. ;) POS wars are the playground for the big boys with big toys. What's so hard to accept there or why is it envisioned as the core feature of Eve for younger players anyway? ................................................. been there done that
wdwm Katarr Amarr 11th Hussars	Posted - 2007.05.14 11:35:00 - [20] Originally by: fire 59 Interesting idea but i personally wouldn't trust some of our enemies as far as i could throw them. Yet we can rely on your Alliance to be above it all? /cheapshot To the OP, I can see your concerns. But eventually if things get to far out of whack I'm sure CCP will level the playing field in some form or the other.

Capt Willard STK Scientific Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.05.14 11:38:00 - [21] Edited by: Capt Willard on 14/05/2007 11:40:40 Any non-proliferation treaty would be as successful as anti nuclear proliferation treaties are now in RL. Anyone who couldn't really afford to keep building more titans/nukes etc would be up for it, but the super-powers would refuse to even look at it. Perhaps we might see somekinda modern paralell where smaller alliances are left be as long as they don't persue super-caps The Horror......
Darknesss D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.14 11:40:00 - [22] I can see why you would suggest it but it does work the other way aswell, better skilled alliances with more sp and isk gain a advantage over larger alliances through the use of capitals.
EVIL SYNNs Minmatar Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.14 11:45:00 - [23] I (speaking for my self and not my corp or alliance) here by swear that if you have a frig , I'm going to bring a the badest ship I can get my hands on. If you bring a Battle cruiser I'm going to get the badest ship I can lay my hands on. If you bring you battleship I'm going to bring the badest ship I can get my hands on. If you bring a Titan I'm going to sit in a POS and stick my tounge out UNTIL I can get a Titan (apart from pants joke). Them the rules and I'm playing by these rules. Blobs, Capitals, Titans. Why is those complaining don't have them. Same debate was had years ago about Battleships. "They have a battleship gang, that must have cost them billions, thats so unfair" Sorry guys, no one playing this game is going to wait for me to catch up, so I can't wait on you. Sorry
Fitz Chivalry eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.14 11:46:00 - [24] Originally by: Dark Shikari a) sucking up to the power block threatening you ...must....resist....obvious....joke....strength....fading....must...attempt...keep....resist /me explodes.
Goktar illiat Gallente DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.14 11:46:00 - [25] Originally by: fire 59 Interesting idea but i personally wouldn't trust some of our enemies as far as i could throw them. You are funny ! Because trust and integrity is a part of the BOD image ?
Obivan Efa The Machines	Posted - 2007.05.14 11:50:00 - [26] Best way to solve this problem - ship class restrictions in 1 system. CCP should limit ship types allowed in 1 system same time. For example for each side: 1 Titan 2 Mothers 5-10 Dreads 5 Carriers 30-50 BSs 70+ smallships Or so on.. It will bring more tactical solutions on field, less lag, less blob, more local fights, more war parties. Epic Wars will be as large front fights instead of 1 MEGAUBERSUPERULTRABLOBBYBADABOOM!!!!1111one11eleven!!! I think it would bring much fun for all. ____________________________ Die, but perish! - viking's war-cry
JackOfHearts Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.14 11:51:00 - [27] Originally by: Frogzuk Its is not healthy for eve and its not healthy for the casual gamers who are light years beind in skills. I do believe you have a interesting point, I to have run a corp and found out that I would have to spend years just to get anywhere, let alone try and run an alliance. But to be honest I think thats why eve is such a great game. If it was so easy to get somewhere or what level 70 in wow to get the goods, then what would be the point in playing after that? But that being said I say the best solution is to keep expanding the eve universe, that way other alliances and corps can expand to regions, soon perhaps it would take 5 hours just to get across the whole universe giving may alliances the chance. I wouldn't worry about it too much though, this war between the alliance vs the coalition has been a 3 year long war. Just alliance names have changed, if you really do the homework. I believe many alliances can also survive just by being friendly so many wars fought over bad poor attitudes. But keep your head up mate, the only way you lose is by giving up!
Fitz Chivalry eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.14 11:51:00 - [28] Edited by: Fitz Chivalry on 14/05/2007 11:50:00 Originally by: Darknesss I can see why you would suggest it but it does work the other way aswell, better skilled alliances with more sp and isk gain a advantage over larger alliances through the use of capitals. Except it doesnt really work like that does it? Because aside from the goons (which is obviously your reference) its only the larger alliances that have these ships (in particular the titans, the MS are less of an issue).
Trustus Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.05.14 11:58:00 - [29] Edited by: Trustus on 14/05/2007 11:59:32 Edited by: Trustus on 14/05/2007 11:57:38 Edited by: Trustus on 14/05/2007 11:56:38 Originally by: Frogzuk interestingly the cap fleets are posing a problem for many smaller alliances that are unable to counter the cap blob. Just wondered what pilots thought about this arms race to have the biggest baddest cap fleet in game. Its is not healthy for eve and its not healthy for the casual gamers who are light years beind in skills. I propose that the major alliances sign up to the cap fleet arms race treaty, thus they all agree to remove titans and motherships from front lines. This treaty will stay in effect until such a time that these ships are no longer destroying eve for what it is ... a pvp game. This treaty could restore the faith in newer players to enjoy the thrills of pvp, this treaty would even the playing field somewhat, but not take away the likes of BoB / RA ability to pawn smaller alliances. Its an idea, and most good things come form ideas.... So basicly what you want is that all of us that have worked HARD to get skills and ships and wasted tons of months getting the right skills in favor for players that have not being online long enough to have the skills or isk to buy the equip/ship/skills. What do you think my answer to that gonna be, is just like when CCP decided to introduce 800k SP to new started characters. That was to me a HUGE lack of respect for us that have workd from scrath and paid for the time it took us to get 800k sp. life is never fair so why should eve be fair?? /T
MeatwagonUK M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.05.14 12:00:00 - [30] Originally by: nickycakes Originally by: Frogzuk Its is not healthy for eve and its not healthy for the casual gamers who are light years beind in skills. How exactly is it "not healthy for eve". And how would being a casual gamer put you behind in skillpoints? This isn't wow. The game isn't designed to be an even field for "casual gamers". Put in more work, get more in return. Put in less work, get less in return, whine on forums. Parts of that are true, but for a casual gamer, this is the best you're gonna get. Skills training when you don't even have to be online is a casual players dream tbh, not grinding like in WoW or whatever.

Nero Winger Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.14 12:00:00 - [31] removing caps out of game isnt that funny at all like you would think it is. just remember the old days where you had to take 200 Apocs fitted with heat sinks II and cap recharger to take out a pos. you really want these days to come back?
Jacque Custeau Knights of the Minmatar Republic	Posted - 2007.05.14 12:02:00 - [32] I don't think comparing capital ship profileration to RL arms races of the last century is valid. There is no mutual assured destruction in EvE, and capital ships are not pilotless weapons that can be remotely fired from a system to points across the galaxy and be capable of destroying all stations (cities) and ships (people) in a system. I doubt CCP will ever introduce such an ability, and if they do, then one can start talking about limiting proliferation. That is, if everyone does not quit EvE first (or it gets nuked to hell in 48 hours). ------------------- 09:F9:11:02:9D:74:E3:5B:D8:41:56:C5:63:56:88:C0
Karim alRashid Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.14 12:25:00 - [33] Originally by: fire 59 BoD vs the coalition of family value's Here, fixed it for ya, at least partially. The possesive deictic is missing a noun, it seems.
AeKi Dragonian Freelancers CORE.	Posted - 2007.05.14 12:46:00 - [34] I think eve atm has a majour prob capitals are basically ruining pvp but so as some ppl said blobs of 800 balckbirds ( no names metioned). I personally aint got a clue on a answer but i think that 1 prob has been solved with one that could be bigger cap blobs and soon super cap blobs. I can see alot of the what older players call pvp happening more in low sec and npc regions, mainly due to the fact you really dont need poses. I also think that the way eve is atm it could put off alot newer players. Some will say oh well but every game needs fresh blood and if the blood looks at game and thinks what chance do i have and why am i training these big ships when there are all these others, to be told well dd kinda made them all pointless. ppl will say look another none cap pilot yeap i dont fly caps why? cause basically i dont like them yeap they do a great job and are prob fun if both sides have same ammount and are willing to go head to head (dont seem to happen much). I have got an idea thats gonna get flames to hell but hey seeing as op is my r/l bro i might as well keep it up .... open a second server where caps aint aloud and all the ppl that want old school pvp go there.The ones who love caps so much stay here .
Auman Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.14 12:49:00 - [35] Edited by: Auman on 14/05/2007 12:47:27 Originally by: Frogzuk interestingly the cap fleets are posing a problem for many smaller alliances that are unable to counter the cap blob. What smaller alliances are you talking about? Is it the new alliances in the new regions? As far as I was aware there isn't anyone fighting in a particularly unfair conflict (cap ship availability wise).
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.14 12:57:00 - [36] Originally by: AeKi I think eve atm has a majour prob capitals are basically ruining pvp but so as some ppl said blobs of 800 balckbirds ( no names metioned). I personally aint got a clue on a answer but i think that 1 prob has been solved with one that could be bigger cap blobs and soon super cap blobs. I can see alot of the what older players call pvp happening more in low sec and npc regions, mainly due to the fact you really dont need poses. I also think that the way eve is atm it could put off alot newer players. Some will say oh well but every game needs fresh blood and if the blood looks at game and thinks what chance do i have and why am i training these big ships when there are all these others, to be told well dd kinda made them all pointless. ppl will say look another none cap pilot yeap i dont fly caps why? cause basically i dont like them yeap they do a great job and are prob fun if both sides have same ammount and are willing to go head to head (dont seem to happen much). I have got an idea thats gonna get flames to hell but hey seeing as op is my r/l bro i might as well keep it up .... open a second server where caps aint aloud and all the ppl that want old school pvp go there.The ones who love caps so much stay here . I guess what you are trying to say is that if Alliances are not willing to invest in their members, and are not willing to invest and develop their fleet in order gain benifits of conquarable space, then they should stay in NPC 0.0 stations as they dont really deserve conquarable space. Fair enough point. -- Billion Isk Mission
AeKi Dragonian Freelancers CORE.	Posted - 2007.05.14 13:02:00 - [37] Err no i was saying that caps aint needed to take over npc space ask COW what i was saying is that ppl who dont want to go cap will prob stay in npc cause then they dont gotta worry about poses quite simple really it wasnt a snipe at anyone but hey not often you can say something on here without ppl trying to find another meaning
ALPHA12125 Gallente 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.14 13:08:00 - [38] Edited by: ALPHA12125 on 14/05/2007 13:06:44 why is everybody saying that capitals are the end of all eve and there is no pvp left ? in the last year we have been once or twice totally outblobbed by capitals ,when engaging an enemy, that we had to retreat. we jumped through a gate and killed their support on the other side while the carriers waited to get cap to jump. there still is loads of and loads of smallscale pvp around and you dont even have to search for it. we fought d2 on numerous occasion, we fought bob on numerous occasions and aaa. 9 out of 10 times those fights no side even had a carrier outside, let alone mothership or titan. you gotta make your own fun in this game.
FuzzBuzz Caldari Templars of Space CORE.	Posted - 2007.05.14 13:21:00 - [39] what the op says will never happen, the people in this game want to win so much that they will use any method apart from hacking the game to meet the needs. i could of bought a carrier pilot quite easily, but i thought, why should i buy some ship that will get mostly used for carrier runs and to be lagged out when i go into fleet battles. so i bought a pvp character and has along way off to become a carrier/dread pilot. fleet warfare aint for me, its ****e. thinking otherwise is a lie.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.14 13:32:00 - [40] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 14/05/2007 13:32:55 Originally by: Fitz Chivalry Originally by: Dark Shikari a) sucking up to the power block threatening you ...must....resist....obvious....joke....strength....fading....must...attempt...keep....resist /me explodes. Well for example, with FIX, it leaves us with three choices: a) Ally with BoB + friends b) Ally with Coalition + friends c) Leave 0.0 And as with any other small alliance, there is no "stand and fight" choice. The power of today's MegaCapitalBlobs ensure that even small alliances cannot claim space and stay neutral. Do you remember a year or two ago, when there was a diplomacy chart with relations between alliances? Back then, the relations weren't obvious; every alliance had its own opinion on things. There were no MegaCapitalBlobs and massive power blocks. Most alliances were free to choose their foreign policy. But today, if you hold space, you're basically forced into a power block whether you want it or not. Its pretty sad, IMO. A diplomacy chart isn't even needed anymore because you can accurately guess an alliance's foreign relations simply by their color on the map. --23 Member-- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio!

Draconiss Gallente AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.05.14 13:43:00 - [41] Originally by: nickycakes Originally by: Frogzuk Its is not healthy for eve and its not healthy for the casual gamers who are light years beind in skills. How exactly is it "not healthy for eve". And how would being a casual gamer put you behind in skillpoints? This isn't wow. The game isn't designed to be an even field for "casual gamers". Put in more work, get more in return. Put in less work, get less in return, whine on forums. Put in more WORK not exactly the casual gamers mantra ...we game to relax & have fun!!!! gaming isn't supposed to be a second JOB I already have a JOB ....and it ain't playing EvE
Johana Walker Lonestar Squadron	Posted - 2007.05.14 13:57:00 - [42] Not going to happen. Have you done the math. Some(tm) of the current capship blobs would cost over $100,000 USD if you where to fund purchase of them with GTC sales. The only way we're going to have an "arms control treaty" is if CCP decides to put a $20,000 per side cap on fleets. The real world value of the cap ship superblob is one of the best kept secrets in EvE as folks won't quit the game over "they kicked our ass" but will quit over "there blob that costs more than my house kicked our ass".
Johana Walker Lonestar Squadron	Posted - 2007.05.14 14:00:00 - [43] Not going to happen. Have you done the math. Some(tm) of the current capship blobs would cost over $100,000 USD if you where to fund purchase of them with GTC sales. The only way we're going to have an "arms control treaty" is if CCP decides to put a $20,000 per side cap on fleets. The real world value of the cap ship superblob is one of the best kept secrets in EvE as folks won't quit the game over "they kicked our ass" but will quit over "there blob that costs more than my house kicked our ass".
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.05.14 14:29:00 - [44] The real problem with cap ships is that their lack of maneuverability and EW usefullness means that whoever has the most of them is almost guaranteed to win. A crafty fleet commander can't really hope to pull off any miraculous victories in a cap ship slugfest. Its all about numbers, and how expensive your fittings are. This is not the case in normal gang PvP, where the best pilots can often win while outnumbered by quite a bit.
Havras The Syndicate Inc DeStInY.	Posted - 2007.05.14 14:38:00 - [45] Edited by: Havras on 14/05/2007 14:38:21 Originally by: Dark Shikari Well for example, with FIX, it leaves us with three choices: a) Ally with BoB + friends b) Ally with Coalition + friends c) Leave 0.0 And as with any other small alliance, there is no "stand and fight" choice. The power of today's MegaCapitalBlobs ensure that even small alliances cannot claim space and stay neutral. Do you remember a year or two ago, when there was a diplomacy chart with relations between alliances? Back then, the relations weren't obvious; every alliance had its own opinion on things. There were no MegaCapitalBlobs and massive power blocks. Most alliances were free to choose their foreign policy. But today, if you hold space, you're basically forced into a power block whether you want it or not. Its pretty sad, IMO. A diplomacy chart isn't even needed anymore because you can accurately guess an alliance's foreign relations simply by their color on the map. And this is the part that is hurtfull to Eve.. smaller alliances have absolutely NO choice but to suck up to a larger power block. They really can't go out and achieve and grow on their own and... believe it or not, not everyone WANTS to pay rent/kiss someone else's arse in order to have a shot in 0.0. Left with the choice of being stuck in Empire or having to join one of the large powerblocks to get anywhere in the game I've pretty much stopped playing. Oh, sure, I still keep my accounts up to date and skills training but what I see happening in 0.0 these days is not my idea of fun. Oh.. and no... I'm not a new player... though I'm not an old vet either. edit: Yes I'm fully aware of the alliance tag under my name. <shrug> Like I said I'm not really playing much so it doesn't matter to me.
Tzrailasa Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.14 15:39:00 - [46] Originally by: Obivan Efa Best way to solve this problem - ship class restrictions in 1 system. CCP should limit ship types allowed in 1 system same time. For example for each side: 1 Titan 2 Mothers 5-10 Dreads 5 Carriers 30-50 BSs 70+ smallships Or so on.. It will bring more tactical solutions on field, less lag, less blob, more local fights, more war parties. Epic Wars will be as large front fights instead of 1 MEGAUBERSUPERULTRABLOBBYBADABOOM!!!!1111one11eleven!!! I think it would bring much fun for all. The problem with this solution, as well as any other solution requiring imposed limits, is the definition of 'side'.... It has to be done in a way that can be determined by the NODE, not by people. In reality, it'll be impossible.... My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.05.14 15:43:00 - [47] Originally by: Tzrailasa Originally by: Obivan Efa Best way to solve this problem - ship class restrictions in 1 system. CCP should limit ship types allowed in 1 system same time. For example for each side: 1 Titan 2 Mothers 5-10 Dreads 5 Carriers 30-50 BSs 70+ smallships Or so on.. It will bring more tactical solutions on field, less lag, less blob, more local fights, more war parties. Epic Wars will be as large front fights instead of 1 MEGAUBERSUPERULTRABLOBBYBADABOOM!!!!1111one11eleven!!! I think it would bring much fun for all. The problem with this solution, as well as any other solution requiring imposed limits, is the definition of 'side'.... It has to be done in a way that can be determined by the NODE, not by people. In reality, it'll be impossible.... True. Theoretically nice, practically impossible. But I agree it would probably be tons more fun to have two fleets squaring off with say 20 BS, 50 cruisers and 80 frigs each, than two fleets of 120 BS, 10 cruisers and 20 frigs. Eve is just too much of a sandbox game to allow anything like this to happen. signature removed - please contact us to find out why (include the URL of your sig) - Jacques([email protected])
Bashiri Caldari Point-Zero SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.14 16:11:00 - [48] maybe you need to head back to empire were you wont see a titan or mothership
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.14 16:23:00 - [49] Originally by: wdwm Katarr Originally by: fire 59 Interesting idea but i personally wouldn't trust some of our enemies as far as i could throw them. Yet we can rely on your Alliance to be above it all? /cheapshot To the OP, I can see your concerns. But eventually if things get to far out of whack I'm sure CCP will level the playing field in some form or the other. I don't see why not, we do as we say and say as we do BoB vs the coalition of family value's
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.14 16:24:00 - [50] Originally by: Karim alRashid Originally by: fire 59 BoD vs the coalition of family value's Here, fixed it for ya, at least partially. The possesive deictic is missing a noun, it seems. Is that meant to be funny? Goon humour strikes, wrecking for omg i wish i was funny too damage BoB vs the coalition of family value's

Je'hira Osiris Minmatar Knights of Chaos Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.05.14 16:24:00 - [51] Originally by: Obivan Efa Best way to solve this problem - ship class restrictions in 1 system. CCP should limit ship types allowed in 1 system same time. For example for each side: 1 Titan 2 Mothers 5-10 Dreads 5 Carriers 30-50 BSs 70+ smallships Or so on.. It will bring more tactical solutions on field, less lag, less blob, more local fights, more war parties. Epic Wars will be as large front fights instead of 1 MEGAUBERSUPERULTRABLOBBYBADABOOM!!!!1111one11eleven!!! I think it would bring much fun for all. WFT!!! silliest idea int he world. sit a titan in a system you dont want to loos with 15 dread int he station how will you ever loose that system Respect can be found for your enemy.... its jus a case of how hard you wanna look...
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.05.14 16:50:00 - [52] Originally by: Johana Walker Not going to happen. Have you done the math. Some(tm) of the current capship blobs would cost over $100,000 USD if you where to fund purchase of them with GTC sales. The only way we're going to have an "arms control treaty" is if CCP decides to put a $20,000 per side cap on fleets. The real world value of the cap ship superblob is one of the best kept secrets in EvE as folks won't quit the game over "they kicked our ass" but will quit over "there blob that costs more than my house kicked our ass". Or instead of worrying about spending real life money on eve you could of course... you know.. play the game... The value of cap fleets is absolutely irrelevant in this discussion and people who think they need to spend money to advance in eve are idiots. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainfrane]
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.14 17:26:00 - [53] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 14/05/2007 17:28:06 The op is caught up in an old world vieuw. Eve online, with the introduction of pos and capitals, got given a new superseding layer of political and territorial play. Eve's layers (for want of a better description) have evolved from: 2003: corp > individual 2003/04: alliance (informal) > corp > individual 2005/06: alliance (formal, territorial) > corp > individual 2006/07: empire > alliance (territorial) >= alliance (non-territorial) > corp > individual. Anyone could see this coming. BoB is just one of the first alliances evolving into an empire. And yes, there's little that any single alliance, territorial or not, can do against an empire. It's high time however that a few other alliances get together and form another empire. At least then this structure gets interesting in the longer run, as empries duke it out at the top level and alliances fight on the more traditional level that mostly involves regular non-cap warfare. That's what alot of them want anyway isn't it ? No pos warfare, no cap arms race, just good old duking it out with a couple fleets over actual space control, not sovereignty ? Give it some time and you'll get your wish, while the huge capital fleets are employed against eachother the sub-alliances as parts of empires can do their thing against eachother. Just don't expect to conquer entire regions anymore when you're not at the empire level. Instead of conquering it however, you can populate it and have the same practical benefits without requiring you to compete directly on the empire level. I guess we kind of hoped that there's be three empires forming. North, SE, SW. The northern one does seem to need a new incarnation tho, and pretty quickly too. [center] Old blog
Tzrailasa Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.14 17:37:00 - [54] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Tzrailasa My stuff... True. Theoretically nice, practically impossible. But I agree it would probably be tons more fun to have two fleets squaring off with say 20 BS, 50 cruisers and 80 frigs each, than two fleets of 120 BS, 10 cruisers and 20 frigs. Eve is just too much of a sandbox game to allow anything like this to happen. What I think could be a way of separating the big fights we have now (big as in: 'big ships'), is if several new regions (and not just a small area like last time, but perhaps the size of 1/2 current 0.0) were added to the EVE universe where cyno-fields couldn't operate. Some reason would have to be thought up for why only small POS' could be anchored and you couldn't produce capitals. These new areas shouldn't be as profitable as current 0.0, but could still be down to maybe -0.3 real sec level. I'm sure there're holes to be poked in the idea, but the basic idea is to get an area of space where small alliances can carve out their own space competing with similar entities. My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance.
Blacklight Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.14 17:44:00 - [55] Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 14/05/2007 17:28:06 The op is caught up in an old world vieuw. Eve online, with the introduction of pos and capitals, got given a new superseding layer of political and territorial play. Eve's layers (for want of a better description) have evolved from: 2003: corp > individual 2003/04: alliance (informal) > corp > individual 2005/06: alliance (formal, territorial) > corp > individual 2006/07: empire > alliance (territorial) >= alliance (non-territorial) > corp > individual. Anyone could see this coming. BoB is just one of the first alliances evolving into an empire. And yes, there's little that any single alliance, territorial or not, can do against an empire. It's high time however that a few other alliances get together and form another empire. At least then this structure gets interesting in the longer run, as empries duke it out at the top level and alliances fight on the more traditional level that mostly involves regular non-cap warfare. That's what alot of them want anyway isn't it ? No pos warfare, no cap arms race, just good old duking it out with a couple fleets over actual space control, not sovereignty ? Give it some time and you'll get your wish, while the huge capital fleets are employed against eachother the sub-alliances as parts of empires can do their thing against eachother. Just don't expect to conquer entire regions anymore when you're not at the empire level. Instead of conquering it however, you can populate it and have the same practical benefits without requiring you to compete directly on the empire level. I guess we kind of hoped that there's be three empires forming. North, SE, SW. The northern one does seem to need a new incarnation tho, and pretty quickly too. The next layer of social grouping within Eve was actually discussed a little and the fact that there was some debate (perhaps only at the 'chat informally over beers after work' stage) within CCP about it was eluded to at the 2005 Fanfest. I think if I am not mistaken it was Kjartan Pierre Emilsson who discussed it. Found a reference to it here. From the timetable... Quote: 15:00 empires Kjartan goes into social structures in EVE, where enabling trust relationships at multiple levels will hopefully lead to larger social structures in the game, world domination and of course, death. I remember discussing it with some of the other BoB guys back in 2005 both at and after the Fanfest. So to those who think about their Eve play more deeply than 'do I press F1 or F2 next' and for anyone who actually plans their corporation or alliance's future properly the evolution of social structures within Eve to the next level should certainly not be any great surprise. Blog
fightnkill Dark Blade Incorporated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.14 17:48:00 - [56] Edited by: fightnkill on 14/05/2007 17:48:20 well since new players can't counter cap blobs, only 2 possibilities a) Quit Eve b) Join a powerful alliance I believe it's very difficult for a new player to start a new alliance/corp that can counter a cap blob nowadays. (With the exception of Goonswarm, mucho respects to them ) same goes for players that are on the losing side. No point of playing Eve if one group won the game already
Lenaria Caldari Draconis Navitas Aeterna	Posted - 2007.05.14 18:04:00 - [57] Capfleet blobs is thing of the past. Supercaps blob - FOTM now. Right now BOB fielded 4 titans and 6 motherships in 9-9. ============================================== 1 Titan is ok, 2 kills any fun, 3 make peoples quit eve. No wonder online numbers decline for 3rd month.
Ace Frehley Minmatar Fist of the Empire	Posted - 2007.05.14 18:32:00 - [58] Who cares about capships and claiming station. Just invite yourself in to someones space or live in npc-regions. inappropriate content removed - Deckard
Obivan Efa The Machines	Posted - 2007.05.15 06:13:00 - [59] Originally by: Tzrailasa Originally by: Obivan Efa Best way to solve this problem - ship class restrictions in 1 system. CCP should limit ship types allowed in 1 system same time. For example for each side: 1 Titan 2 Mothers 5-10 Dreads 5 Carriers 30-50 BSs 70+ smallships Or so on.. It will bring more tactical solutions on field, less lag, less blob, more local fights, more war parties. Epic Wars will be as large front fights instead of 1 MEGAUBERSUPERULTRABLOBBYBADABOOM!!!!1111one11eleven!!! I think it would bring much fun for all. The problem with this solution, as well as any other solution requiring imposed limits, is the definition of 'side'.... It has to be done in a way that can be determined by the NODE, not by people. In reality, it'll be impossible.... Definition of side... hmm it whould be a hard way. Maybe this kind of restrictions should be linked with "victory conditions" announced by DEVs some time ago. For example. U could use BIG anti-POS Capships only if u declared off. war with exact victory conditions (capture outpost or destroy pos-shipyard)... in other cases u just can't use Titans, Dreads, Mothers in fleets... Some more ideas... 1)Combined arms bonus - bonus for fleet with appropriate number and type balance and formation (+5-15% bonus to attack capabilities) 2)Stacking penalty for large bulky overnumbered fleets (for example -75% to all stats) ____________________________ Die, but perish! - viking's war-cry
Drakma Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.05.15 06:34:00 - [60] Originally by: nickycakes ... The game isn't designed to be an even field for "casual gamers". ... This is true. I remember when I bought the game at Best Buy nearly 4 years ago, there was a yellow sticker right on the front that said, "For hardcore players only!" </sarcasm>

Fred0 Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.15 07:29:00 - [61] Edited by: Fred0 on 15/05/2007 07:28:24 So then. What are the defining features of empires? It's easy enough to call oneself that to try and distinguish yourself from others but perhaps we could get some unbiased, factual ones criterio that we currently have from individual - corp - alliance (non-terr) - alliance (territorial) and apply that to empires.... That eve would evolve past alliances was a given and we've seen a number of different types which very much intrigue me. The BOB domination of their sphere makes a very interesting case study. The north has a very democratic system at the top between alliances which is I would imagine different to bob. And the RAGOONAAA one I have not even managed to understand yet, in part ofcourse because it's very closed even to allies. :)
Oli4Oli4 Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.15 08:27:00 - [62] It is a nice thougt but imo not more then that. And if you cant fight the cap blob, hit your enemy somewhere else.


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