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Tutomech
Infinite Development Consortium
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Posted - 2007.05.15 14:12:00 -
[1]
Implementing a minigame in Eve has to be done carefuly, as me (hopefuly others too) don't want repetitive or pointles tasks ingame. I also don't want minigames to replace the current way of progressing characters ingame, I think the current learning process is an ingenious concept of progressing.
I have an idea how to improve mining, to make it a more interesting and challenging. It would also make it realy hard to write macros for it. It is similar to the technique that is used to prevent automatic account creation on many wabsites all around the net.
The idea is here (6 parts):
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Tutomech
Infinite Development Consortium
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Posted - 2007.05.15 14:13:00 -
[2]
Part 1: Minigame mechanics: When a miner activates a mining laser a mining map of a piece of asteroid pops up. Then the player has to program a path on that map for his mining laser. The quality of the path would determine a bonus to the amount of ore mined. The mining map would consist of optimal mining areas, sub optimal mining areas and impurities. Look at the example ascii art for an explanation.
The common asteroids Veldspar would have simple mining paths (Circle, big box, long line) and high value asteroids would have more complex paths (curves, dis****inued optimal areas, lots of impurities). The interface should be coded carefuly though not to prevent gameplay to people with disabilities (color blindnes etc).
Mining laser path should consist of line segments that all have the same length and would represent 10 seconds of mining laser travel. Good laser paths shold increase mining yield bonuses and bad paths should reduce those bonuses.
If a laser is mining the optimal path for 10 seconds it should give a 10% mining yield bonus. Crossing mining lines or mining a sub optimal path should decrese a bonus by 10%. Hitting some impurities should zero out the path bonus. This bonus should be BIG as it would make up for the extra time spent on setting the paths.
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Tutomech
Infinite Development Consortium
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Posted - 2007.05.15 14:15:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Tutomech on 15/05/2007 14:24:28 Edit: asci art had to be made browser friendly.
Part 2: Example +- Laser locked area (the map) --------+ | ____________________________________ | | ______________X@4___________________ | | ______......XX...................... | | ______....XX........................ | | ______...@3......................<---|--- optimal mining area | ______...X.......................... | (bonus +10%) | ______...X.......___________________ | | ______...X.......___________________ | | ______...X.......___________________ | | ______...X.......______HHHHHHHH_____ | | _____...@2.......______HHHHHHHH_____ | | ____....X......._______HHHHHHHH_<----|--- Impurity area | ___....X.......________HHHHHHHH_____ | (bonus to 0%) | __....X.......______________________ | | _....X......._______________________ | | ....X.......____________________<----|--- sub optimal mining area | ...@1......_________________________ | (bonus -10%) | ____________________________________ | +--------------------------------------+ @ ponts programmed by miner X mining path
In the example above the miner would get +10% mining yield bonus if he placed the point @1 first and @4 last. On the other side if the miner would place point @4 firs and point @1 last he would get 20% mining yield bonus.
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Tutomech
Infinite Development Consortium
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Posted - 2007.05.15 14:16:00 -
[4]
Part 3: New skill introduced, new mining lasers attributes and more A new skill should be intruduced Mining laser programming. This skill would allow lasers to get some extra line segments set and reduce the repetitivnes of miner laser programming. Multiply factor of the skill should be about 3x and requirements Mining lvl 1. Each level of this skill should add about 2 line segments to mining laser path.
Mining lasers: Basic miner (no programming possible, no minigame) Miner I - 3 line segments + skill bonus Dual diode mining laser I - 4 line segments + skill CU Vapor - 6 line segments + skill Miner II - 6 line segments + skill (but better basic yield) Strip miners - 9 line segments + skill (but tifferent basic yields)
Mining to can There needs to be an option in gui that adds possibility to mine directly to the targeted can. There is no point in making miners manualy move ore from cargo bay to a can and mining ships won't need any cargo at all... Don't see any reason whay this couldn't or shouldn't be done. Macrominers are doing it anyways.
Mining in a BS? Hell no. The extra time that takes to set up a mining laser path would also make it pointles to operate many mining lasers on a single ship. IMHO battle ships are for fighting, not mining.
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Tutomech
Infinite Development Consortium
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Posted - 2007.05.15 14:17:00 -
[5]
Part 4: A new reason to leave NPC corporations and get into corporate wars Whenever a miner is hit (by a laser, missile or other ship) the mining lasers should loose they target lock (aka mining path program) and deactivate. This brings a lot of chalenge into high security mining and would encurage players to mine in less populated systems. However each miner that would be bumped by the same pilot 2 times in 15 minutes or less should be given kill rights to that pilot.
If multiple pilots are bumping you that is tough luck. Kill them, war declarate their corporation or move to another system... Though luck.
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Tutomech
Infinite Development Consortium
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Posted - 2007.05.15 14:18:00 -
[6]
Part 5: Server loads and abuse The server vould have to store about 100 maps for the minigames per ore type. Those can be generated on a special (offline) computer and then stored on the server. Few (like 10) of them should be modified every month to provide diversety.
The maps should not be stored on the client side but generated from server side data. This makes it a bit harder for hackers to write hooks for the client and auto apply a corresponding macro to program the laser.
The mathematics behind path calculations are farely simple and should not present any new significant serverloads. As the minigame is totaly independant on other gameplay events (except interruption) it can be even offloaded to an independant processing unit.
Network load would be a bit higher though as there is the need to transfer the mining map to the client but this should introduce similar or even less network load than transfering avatar portraits to the client.
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Tutomech
Infinite Development Consortium
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Posted - 2007.05.15 14:19:00 -
[7]
Part 6: Invitation to improve my idea and make this tread visible to the Devs
First i want to apologize for all the typing errors and not the best English. It is not my mother tongue afterall.
thank you for reading this post and comments are welcome.
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Spoon Thumb
Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority
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Posted - 2007.05.15 15:50:00 -
[8]
I suspect that many people enjoy mining because they can relax and read a book or watch a movie on another screen, so this could detract from that slightly
Having said that, it certainly would be nice in all of eve if you could gain an advantage by "aiming" rather than just what setup you have / what skills you've got. It also makes sense also that asteroids should have veins of higher value mineral over the impure or bog standard ore.
I don't think this would stop macro-miners though. They will always find a way around
Khaldari Research Services KPA Recruiting! |
Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.15 16:58:00 -
[9]
This would irritate me, honestly. If I wanted "interaction", I would be hunting rats or NPCs. Adding games or unnessesary attention will just cause more casual miners to not do it and will not attract those that aren't into mining. This makes PLAYER skills more important that character skills, which is against the entire concept of the game.
I see mining as follows: 1) Mining laser slices off a piece of the asteroid. Better lasers and skills == more cut off in the same time period. 2) Ore is scooped into the ship.
Basically you arrive on site, chose your asteroid, tell the computer to use cut-pattern gamma since its a Krokite roid, then read a book while it runs (both you and your character).
Much like the gold farmers of old you aren't specifically taking this little piece, that little piece, you are taking the entire asteroid. Your scanners can tell you the amount of ore in each rock, but you still take the entire thing. This is why asteroids "disappear" when they are mined out.
As for macros, they will still take the entire rock and won't be stopped by this tactic. <-----------> Factional Warefare:
The LowSec wars which never happened. |
WhitePhantom
Gallente Edenists
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Posted - 2007.05.15 18:30:00 -
[10]
I only support on part of your suggestion.
If you run into a ship, they should lose the lock on the roid, and perhps even have it affect newbie corperation members.
We can irrate the macro miners to death!
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Tutomech
Infinite Development Consortium
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Posted - 2007.05.15 18:43:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Tutomech on 15/05/2007 18:43:08
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
This would irritate me, honestly. If I wanted "interaction", I would be hunting rats or NPCs.
I do not see any point in being logged into a game if you are not playing it. I seen this in Kal online where a player has to stay online just for selling stuff. It created awfoul amounts of lag (not server load but alot of unnecesary network load)...
All games are about is playing and socializing. But if you want second part only you can use IRC and save the subscription...
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Adding games or unnessesary attention will just cause more casual miners to not do it and will not attract those that aren't into mining.
Why would this simple pattern recognition game scare away casual miners? What aspect of it? I think most pilots are put off to mining becose it is time consuming, repetative and... well boring.
Why doesent CPP bring in casual PvP? I 'd love to sit back, read a book and kill some other pilot?
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
This makes PLAYER skills more important that character skills, which is against the entire concept of the game.
I disagree. Programming a mining laser is just like fitting a ship. The actual yield would still be skill based, just like it is now.
Again: you can not setup a ship, undock and sit back and watch pretty lights while auto PvP-ing. You have to be active.
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
As for macros, they will still take the entire rock and won't be stopped by this tactic.
I suspect u have never coded pattern recognition programs. It is hard, very hard. If this trick works for google I think it could work for Eve too. At least this idea gives a big advantage to an active player and macros will be used less just becose they would mine much less then a player.
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Yamichi Wiggin
Caldari Rising Knights SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.15 19:52:00 -
[12]
He's right. That's not how Eve works. imho, it's not how it should. We don't have minigames all over the place and I don't think we should. Character skill + ship loadout = good job. if you want clicking accuracy to be the name of the game, let me aim for your turrets first. Then I'll worry about what part of the asteroid i'm hitting.
I'm a miner and I think this is a horrible idea. ------ Pain is weakness leaving the body.
There is no love in fear |
Fraszoid
Caldari BloodStorm Elite Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.15 21:18:00 -
[13]
I'm not too fond of this idea, because mining ops are busy for me as it is. I have to coordinate the haulers to get the minerals moved, keep track of what volume is mined, production requirements, and we also socialize and work on defence against rats and enemy invasions. You try commanding 3 Hulks while you are also flying one, and tracking 27 paths on 3 separate rocks of jaspet or dark ochre. That would add a lot of extra work to mine out a belt efficiently. I could see this on a Deep Core Miner, as they are more precise and powerful, with a better tracking system. Normal mining lasers are just meant to get the ore out, no matter how inefficient it is. I've read many good books while mining and had many more interesting converstaions on mining ops
Everyone is born right handed, only the great over come it.
Check out my players guide at: http://www.eve-miners.info/guide/minersguide.html |
PastaMadaFaka
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Posted - 2007.05.15 23:45:00 -
[14]
in my point of view nope...
do actualy do mining?
i just got my hands on a hulk and if mining ever gets that way ill just sell it and start killing rats theres plenty of challenge there...
i started to do mining to relax from missions and other stuff i do cuz i got time to read something or see a movie while i play and i think theres plenty of peeps that do the same
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.16 00:11:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Tutomech [ I do not see any point in being logged into a game if you are not playing it. I seen this in Kal online where a player has to stay online just for selling stuff. It created awfoul amounts of lag (not server load but alot of unnecesary network load)...
All games are about is playing and socializing. But if you want second part only you can use IRC and save the subscription...
Actually I get plenty of interaction in the game, even while mining. I have at least 4 chat windows open between Corp, alliance and friends. I am buying and selling all the time. I am watching for rats and directing drones.
I feel no need to spend time "interacting" with an asteroid
Quote:
Why would this simple pattern recognition game scare away casual miners? What aspect of it? I think most pilots are put off to mining becose it is time consuming, repetative and... well boring.
Why doesent CPP bring in casual PvP? I 'd love to sit back, read a book and kill some other pilot?
Why would it interfere with casual players? Simply because they are here to relax, not have to deal with something constantly. Those that want to shoot at things do so to relax. Those that mine do so to relax. Make them manually deal with each asteroid and they won't bother.
Fewer PC miners == higher prices and better profits for macros
Quote:
I disagree. Programming a mining laser is just like fitting a ship. The actual yield would still be skill based, just like it is now.
Again: you can not setup a ship, undock and sit back and watch pretty lights while auto PvP-ing. You have to be active.
But you ALREADY fitted the ship. No need to interactively pick each rock and where to hit, you can't do this with NPCing or PvP can you? I have to do the same mining as YOU do with NPCs: Fit my ship, Move to location, chose my target, deploy my defenses, watch local, determine if there is a danger, jump to station, etc. Actually right now for a miner it is MORE dangerous by far, even in Empire, than NPCing. Not very many PCs claim that your NPCing character is a Macro and suicides you.
Quote: I suspect u have never coded pattern recognition programs. It is hard, very hard. If this trick works for google I think it could work for Eve too. At least this idea gives a big advantage to an active player and macros will be used less just becose they would mine much less then a player.
FInd a solution that doesn't interfere with legitimate miners and you have my support. Make our time in eve more irritating or distracting and you will lose miners.
It is CCP's job to figure out how to deal with macros, not ours. <-----------> Factional Warefare:
The LowSec wars which never happened. |
Scordef
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Posted - 2007.05.16 02:20:00 -
[16]
No.
EverQuest 2 tradeskills are all 'mini games' and it's nothing but an irritating time sink. Oh wait, I just said 'time sink'. I hope CCP doesn't read this - they'll implement it straight away.
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Tutomech
Infinite Development Consortium
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Posted - 2007.05.16 05:51:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Tutomech on 16/05/2007 05:49:47
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
I feel no need to spend time "interacting" with an asteroid
Originally by: Yamichi Wiggin That's not how Eve works. imho, it's not how it should. We don't have minigames all over the place and I don't think we should.
Originally by: Scordef
EverQuest 2 tradeskills are all 'mini games' and it's nothing but an irritating time sink. Oh wait, I just said 'time sink'. I hope CCP doesn't read this - they'll implement it straight away.
I see both of your point here. But I still think that mining should require a personal attention at least every 5 minutes (when all skills are maxed). If CPP can achieve this any other way than implementing a minigame it would be even greater. But please no more pointless and repetitive clicks.
How about something like a area of asteroid selection then? Player has to look at 4 proposed preprogrammed laser paths and chose the one that he thinks would give him best mining yield bonus... This takes away the time sink and would still require minimal player interaction. Do you like this approach better?
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.05.16 07:41:00 -
[18]
Actually i made a thread about a mining upgrade thingy that people liked and would eliminate a bit of macro loving. Should dig it up.
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Tutomech
Infinite Development Consortium
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Posted - 2007.05.16 08:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones Actually i made a thread about a mining upgrade thingy that people liked and would eliminate a bit of macro loving. Should dig it up.
Oh old posts are hard to find... Well here it is: Sheriff Jones thread
Looks like i am not the first one with this idea...
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.05.16 09:35:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Tutomech
Originally by: Sheriff Jones Looks like i am not the first one with this idea...
New ideas are hard to come by. Yours is different, but same underlining, make mining more interesting
The fact that two individuals with totally different playstyles come up with a similar idea, doesn't make the other idea any less.
Just means that this is something that is more populary wanted
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Sam Gunn
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Posted - 2007.05.16 15:14:00 -
[21]
If I had to draw lines on roids all day, I would leave eve. I mine most of my time in eve, and when mining with a group the last thing I want to worry about is something like this. The lag is bad enough, they need to stop adding stuff like this, and fix the problems they have.
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.16 15:22:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Tutomech
I see both of your point here. But I still think that mining should require a personal attention at least every 5 minutes (when all skills are maxed).
Haven't mined much, have you?
A moderately-skilled (NOT maxed) character can fill the hold of their mining barge in less than 2 cycles (3 minutes per cycle) of the strip miners. So even if you are jet mining you have to manually move your ore to the Jet Can every 3 minutes or your mining lasers shut off. PS-That is with the lows full of cargo extenders too.
If you are mining in a cruiser, you can barely hold one cycle of your normal mining lasers, which have a one minute cycle time.
I think you don't mine much and are trying to "fix" something you don't know much about <-----------> Factional Warefare:
The LowSec wars which never happened. |
Tutomech
Infinite Development Consortium
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Posted - 2007.05.16 15:43:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
If you are mining in a cruiser, you can barely hold one cycle of your normal mining lasers, which have a one minute cycle time.
You missed the mine to target can in part 3 of the idea.
TBH I like sheriffs idea better than mine atm. It fits better into Eve...
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Emylissan
Gallente European Science Armada
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Posted - 2007.05.16 17:00:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Emylissan on 16/05/2007 16:58:52 I like it as it is now, rat attacks, ore thieves and the coordination of mining is already enough i have to worry about. Ask the NPC mission flyer and the PvP¦er if they would like a minigame popup when they activate a gun to fire at a ship
*Computer voice:"Please choose fire direction"* And while they do they become already attacked by the enemies.
So when i mine and have to play your minigame, than guritas destructor attack me, i have to cordinate my drones, lock on the rats, play your stupid game and trigger my shieldbooster to avoid loosing my ship.
No thanks.
----------------------------------------------------- Everyone who finds a type error can keep it. ----------------------------------------------------- |
Tutomech
Infinite Development Consortium
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Posted - 2007.05.16 17:14:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Sam Gunn If I had to draw lines on roids all day, I would leave eve. I mine most of my time in eve, and when mining with a group the last thing I want to worry about is something like this.
If you would be willing to mine without a special yield bonus you wouldn't have to draw lines. See post no. 17.
I don't insist on implementing a minigame into Eve, but I do want pilots to be rewarded for their effort.
Eve has the best economy model I have seen until now. It should not be about who has the most accounts (buying yourself a 1 man band is just as bad as buying ISK imo). And free market trade is not based on risk vs reward, it is based on supply and demand. Market would adopt to any changes.
Originally by: Sam Gunn If I had to draw lines on asteroids all day, I would leave eve. I mine most of my time in eve, and when mining with a group the last thing I want to worry about is something like this. The lag is bad enough, they need to stop adding stuff like this, and fix the problems they have.
How would implementation of this idea influence on lag? I don't think this would bring any noticeable lag into game, it would be a fairly simple client functionality.
I am not sure, but I think most lag comes from too many people being in the same system. As each client has to know who is in the same system and communicate with them (as shown by local window).
Having this said I will repeat myself: I like Seriff's idea even better. It is simpler and it fits into Eve just the right way.
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Tutomech
Infinite Development Consortium
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Posted - 2007.05.16 17:27:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Emylissan
Ask the NPC mission flyer and the PvP¦er if they would like a minigame popup when they activate a gun to fire at a ship
Please take a look at post number 17: avoiding the time sink.
Originally by: Emylissan
So when i mine and have to play your minigame, than guritas destructor attack me, i have to cordinate my drones, lock on the rats, play your stupid game and trigger my shieldbooster to avoid loosing my ship.
Is it a good idea to solo mine? I think each mining op should have some guards on standby...
Originally by: Emylissan
No thanks.
I think Sheriff had a much better idea than me, so please take a look at his proposal. Sheriff Jones thread
Also take a look at the sorounding answers. Your concerns are already addressed there.
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.16 18:02:00 -
[27]
Thing is that you don't seem to understand is that Macros DO NOT CARE if they get 10% smaller yield by not playing the silly games. They are going to chug away regardless.
And the other thing you don't seem to understand is that PLAYERS DO NOT WANT to be forced to play silly games. The vast majority of miners already have enough to do without spending even 20 seconds goofing around with an asteroid and specifically targeting areas. They are normally mining to relax and are semi-afk.
Fix things like abysmally small cargo holds in barges, Jet Can theft rules, "giant" secure containers that are so small you can fill one in a SINGLE cycle in a Covetor, etc and then maybe we will be willing to dork around. As it is even 20 seconds just seriously cut into my mining time because unless I run 2 accounts I have to jump back to station every 4.5 minutes to empty my cargo. Plus the majority of Roids you find in Empire take maybe 2 cycles to clear, so you are spending another 20-30 seconds every other cycle to target the ore veins in the Roids, time which we aren't mining.
All the so-called "anti-macro" plans do is irritate normal miners and give them excuses not to mine, which in turn leads to increased profits for macros. "I" almost never log my miner in any more because its turned into too much of a hassle; one more legitimate barge that has left the dock twice in the last 2 months. Who is making up the difference of the loss of another miner? Macros.
Instead of finding ways to deal with macros, why don't you try to explain to all the jerks out there that every time they petition a legitimate miner, every time they gank a miner, every time they play bump with a legitimate miner, every time they harass one in local, etc etc etc they are driving legitimate players away and PC STOP MINING. If more PCs were mining then profits would be down, mineral prices would be down and fewer macros could make real money from the ISK the mine. As it is, if the current trend and harassment of miners continues, the only ships that will be mining will be macros because its too much of an irritation to the players that are interested in doing it. <-----------> Factional Warefare:
The LowSec wars which never happened. |
Tutomech
Infinite Development Consortium
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Posted - 2007.05.16 19:03:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Tutomech on 16/05/2007 19:03:41 Edited by: Tutomech on 16/05/2007 19:01:53 Replay to Anaalys:
If you are willing to do a work of a computer program that controls mouse and keyboard on a timer basis I have no problem with it. But I do think that each reward should be a reflect of someones effort. This does not mean that I want pointless/endless grinding in a game. A good game gives a goal that is achievable within a reasonable time and with reasonable effort. A great game gives many goals and choices between them. And I do think Eve is a great game.
To sum up. I want better yields in mining and I am willing to work for it. And if you have not, do look at Sheriffs thread I think he got it better than me.
I suggest we do stop here as our views on how and why to play games differ too much to be constructive.
Thank you for presenting your point of view.
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Sarf
Asgard Industries Safe And Fun Environment
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Posted - 2007.05.16 20:32:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Sarf on 16/05/2007 20:33:09 Everquest 2 has this neat( but a bit frustrating system) While you are crafting something everyone in a while a event happens and you can apply a counter. if you don't apply the counter in time you take damage.
So this only works with Tunable-strip miners using crystals.
The tunable strip miner comes in the same setting as current strip miners, but offer a greater level of control over the standard version.
Event / counter / bonus / penalty - Unstable rock stratas / Laser Supports / normal ore mined / 10% - 50% less ore this cycle - Power level fluctuations / use Reserve power system / Normal ore mined / 1%-10% crystal damage - Gas Pocket / Directed venting / 5% - 20% more ore this cycle / Ore is 1 grade lower - Hidden ore pocket / Mine it / 1%-20% of mining cycle yield in higher Grade Ore ** / normal mining yield - Crystal fracture / nano reconstruction / 1%-5% crystal damage / crystal destroyed. - Reflective harmonics / precise tuning / 100% bonus ore this cycle / crystal destroyed
** If mining in 1.0 - 0.5 then ore is from the common ores for 0.4 - 0.1, if mining 0.4-0.1 then ore is common for 0.0 mining, mining 0.0 then ore is arkanor.
Well there is my idea, what do you think? - Sarf CEO, Director of Freighter construction. Miner of small balls of dirt. |
Mentonak
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Posted - 2007.05.16 22:43:00 -
[30]
I've mined for weeks and weeks in highsec in eve. So much so I'm now the proud owner of a Rokh bpo (work that one out at 6 mil per hour...).
Believe me when I say the LAST thing I wanted during those weeks was interrest. I just sat quietly and mined infront of the TV or even nothing at all. It was bliss compared with actually having to interact with my GF's mother micromanaging christmas to the last mince pie.
But seriously a few points...
1 I like the idea of adding interrest to the game, but adding something that might reduce my mining rate would irratate the hell out of me when mining.
2 More specifically with your sudgestion, you mentioned security. All "programming" would have to be sent to the server for verification. This is gonna bump up the traffic a bit, but would, on the face of it, also make it easier to lag and have you're lazers stop for no obveous reason.
3 I noted someone's refference to EQII. "irratating time sink" is something of an understatement. Time sink maybe.. absolutely Gutting when your high-level rare fails because of a miner lag spike!
4 loosing target lock when shot by a single lazer. Sometimes you get aggroed every 5 mins by npcs for an hour. Thats just not practical. You're expecting me to spend an hour mining for sweet FA just because of unlucky respawns? hmm. no thankyou.
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