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Making mining fun and very hard to macro

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Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.15 14:12:00 - [1] Implementing a minigame in Eve has to be done carefuly, as me (hopefuly others too) don't want repetitive or pointles tasks ingame. I also don't want minigames to replace the current way of progressing characters ingame, I think the current learning process is an ingenious concept of progressing. I have an idea how to improve mining, to make it a more interesting and challenging. It would also make it realy hard to write macros for it. It is similar to the technique that is used to prevent automatic account creation on many wabsites all around the net. The idea is here (6 parts):
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.15 14:13:00 - [2] Part 1: Minigame mechanics: When a miner activates a mining laser a mining map of a piece of asteroid pops up. Then the player has to program a path on that map for his mining laser. The quality of the path would determine a bonus to the amount of ore mined. The mining map would consist of optimal mining areas, sub optimal mining areas and impurities. Look at the example ascii art for an explanation. The common asteroids Veldspar would have simple mining paths (Circle, big box, long line) and high value asteroids would have more complex paths (curves, dis****inued optimal areas, lots of impurities). The interface should be coded carefuly though not to prevent gameplay to people with disabilities (color blindnes etc). Mining laser path should consist of line segments that all have the same length and would represent 10 seconds of mining laser travel. Good laser paths shold increase mining yield bonuses and bad paths should reduce those bonuses. If a laser is mining the optimal path for 10 seconds it should give a 10% mining yield bonus. Crossing mining lines or mining a sub optimal path should decrese a bonus by 10%. Hitting some impurities should zero out the path bonus. This bonus should be BIG as it would make up for the extra time spent on setting the paths.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.15 14:15:00 - [3] Edited by: Tutomech on 15/05/2007 14:24:28 Edit: asci art had to be made browser friendly. Part 2: Example +- Laser locked area (the map) --------+ \| ____________________________________ \| \| ______________X@4___________________ \| \| ______......XX...................... \| \| ______....XX........................ \| \| ______...@3......................<---\|--- optimal mining area \| ______...X.......................... \| (bonus +10%) \| ______...X.......___________________ \| \| ______...X.......___________________ \| \| ______...X.......___________________ \| \| ______...X.......______HHHHHHHH_____ \| \| _____...@2.......______HHHHHHHH_____ \| \| ____....X......._______HHHHHHHH_<----\|--- Impurity area \| ___....X.......________HHHHHHHH_____ \| (bonus to 0%) \| __....X.......______________________ \| \| _....X......._______________________ \| \| ....X.......____________________<----\|--- sub optimal mining area \| ...@1......_________________________ \| (bonus -10%) \| ____________________________________ \| +--------------------------------------+ @ ponts programmed by miner X mining path In the example above the miner would get +10% mining yield bonus if he placed the point @1 first and @4 last. On the other side if the miner would place point @4 firs and point @1 last he would get 20% mining yield bonus.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.15 14:16:00 - [4] Part 3: New skill introduced, new mining lasers attributes and more A new skill should be intruduced Mining laser programming. This skill would allow lasers to get some extra line segments set and reduce the repetitivnes of miner laser programming. Multiply factor of the skill should be about 3x and requirements Mining lvl 1. Each level of this skill should add about 2 line segments to mining laser path. Mining lasers: Basic miner (no programming possible, no minigame) Miner I - 3 line segments + skill bonus Dual diode mining laser I - 4 line segments + skill CU Vapor - 6 line segments + skill Miner II - 6 line segments + skill (but better basic yield) Strip miners - 9 line segments + skill (but tifferent basic yields) Mining to can There needs to be an option in gui that adds possibility to mine directly to the targeted can. There is no point in making miners manualy move ore from cargo bay to a can and mining ships won't need any cargo at all... Don't see any reason whay this couldn't or shouldn't be done. Macrominers are doing it anyways. Mining in a BS? Hell no. The extra time that takes to set up a mining laser path would also make it pointles to operate many mining lasers on a single ship. IMHO battle ships are for fighting, not mining.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.15 14:17:00 - [5] Part 4: A new reason to leave NPC corporations and get into corporate wars Whenever a miner is hit (by a laser, missile or other ship) the mining lasers should loose they target lock (aka mining path program) and deactivate. This brings a lot of chalenge into high security mining and would encurage players to mine in less populated systems. However each miner that would be bumped by the same pilot 2 times in 15 minutes or less should be given kill rights to that pilot. If multiple pilots are bumping you that is tough luck. Kill them, war declarate their corporation or move to another system... Though luck.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.15 14:18:00 - [6] Part 5: Server loads and abuse The server vould have to store about 100 maps for the minigames per ore type. Those can be generated on a special (offline) computer and then stored on the server. Few (like 10) of them should be modified every month to provide diversety. The maps should not be stored on the client side but generated from server side data. This makes it a bit harder for hackers to write hooks for the client and auto apply a corresponding macro to program the laser. The mathematics behind path calculations are farely simple and should not present any new significant serverloads. As the minigame is totaly independant on other gameplay events (except interruption) it can be even offloaded to an independant processing unit. Network load would be a bit higher though as there is the need to transfer the mining map to the client but this should introduce similar or even less network load than transfering avatar portraits to the client.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.15 14:19:00 - [7] Part 6: Invitation to improve my idea and make this tread visible to the Devs First i want to apologize for all the typing errors and not the best English. It is not my mother tongue afterall. thank you for reading this post and comments are welcome.
Spoon Thumb Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority	Posted - 2007.05.15 15:50:00 - [8] I suspect that many people enjoy mining because they can relax and read a book or watch a movie on another screen, so this could detract from that slightly Having said that, it certainly would be nice in all of eve if you could gain an advantage by "aiming" rather than just what setup you have / what skills you've got. It also makes sense also that asteroids should have veins of higher value mineral over the impure or bog standard ore. I don't think this would stop macro-miners though. They will always find a way around Khaldari Research Services KPA Recruiting!
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.15 16:58:00 - [9] This would irritate me, honestly. If I wanted "interaction", I would be hunting rats or NPCs. Adding games or unnessesary attention will just cause more casual miners to not do it and will not attract those that aren't into mining. This makes PLAYER skills more important that character skills, which is against the entire concept of the game. I see mining as follows: 1) Mining laser slices off a piece of the asteroid. Better lasers and skills == more cut off in the same time period. 2) Ore is scooped into the ship. Basically you arrive on site, chose your asteroid, tell the computer to use cut-pattern gamma since its a Krokite roid, then read a book while it runs (both you and your character). Much like the gold farmers of old you aren't specifically taking this little piece, that little piece, you are taking the entire asteroid. Your scanners can tell you the amount of ore in each rock, but you still take the entire thing. This is why asteroids "disappear" when they are mined out. As for macros, they will still take the entire rock and won't be stopped by this tactic. <-----------> Factional Warefare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
WhitePhantom Gallente Edenists	Posted - 2007.05.15 18:30:00 - [10] I only support on part of your suggestion. If you run into a ship, they should lose the lock on the roid, and perhps even have it affect newbie corperation members. We can irrate the macro miners to death!
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.15 18:43:00 - [11] Edited by: Tutomech on 15/05/2007 18:43:08 Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby This would irritate me, honestly. If I wanted "interaction", I would be hunting rats or NPCs. I do not see any point in being logged into a game if you are not playing it. I seen this in Kal online where a player has to stay online just for selling stuff. It created awfoul amounts of lag (not server load but alot of unnecesary network load)... All games are about is playing and socializing. But if you want second part only you can use IRC and save the subscription... Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Adding games or unnessesary attention will just cause more casual miners to not do it and will not attract those that aren't into mining. Why would this simple pattern recognition game scare away casual miners? What aspect of it? I think most pilots are put off to mining becose it is time consuming, repetative and... well boring. Why doesent CPP bring in casual PvP? I 'd love to sit back, read a book and kill some other pilot? Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby This makes PLAYER skills more important that character skills, which is against the entire concept of the game. I disagree. Programming a mining laser is just like fitting a ship. The actual yield would still be skill based, just like it is now. Again: you can not setup a ship, undock and sit back and watch pretty lights while auto PvP-ing. You have to be active. Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby As for macros, they will still take the entire rock and won't be stopped by this tactic. I suspect u have never coded pattern recognition programs. It is hard, very hard. If this trick works for google I think it could work for Eve too. At least this idea gives a big advantage to an active player and macros will be used less just becose they would mine much less then a player.
Yamichi Wiggin Caldari Rising Knights SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.15 19:52:00 - [12] He's right. That's not how Eve works. imho, it's not how it should. We don't have minigames all over the place and I don't think we should. Character skill + ship loadout = good job. if you want clicking accuracy to be the name of the game, let me aim for your turrets first. Then I'll worry about what part of the asteroid i'm hitting. I'm a miner and I think this is a horrible idea. ------ Pain is weakness leaving the body. There is no love in fear
Fraszoid Caldari BloodStorm Elite Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.05.15 21:18:00 - [13] I'm not too fond of this idea, because mining ops are busy for me as it is. I have to coordinate the haulers to get the minerals moved, keep track of what volume is mined, production requirements, and we also socialize and work on defence against rats and enemy invasions. You try commanding 3 Hulks while you are also flying one, and tracking 27 paths on 3 separate rocks of jaspet or dark ochre. That would add a lot of extra work to mine out a belt efficiently. I could see this on a Deep Core Miner, as they are more precise and powerful, with a better tracking system. Normal mining lasers are just meant to get the ore out, no matter how inefficient it is. I've read many good books while mining and had many more interesting converstaions on mining ops Everyone is born right handed, only the great over come it. Check out my players guide at: http://www.eve-miners.info/guide/minersguide.html
PastaMadaFaka	Posted - 2007.05.15 23:45:00 - [14] in my point of view nope... do actualy do mining? i just got my hands on a hulk and if mining ever gets that way ill just sell it and start killing rats theres plenty of challenge there... i started to do mining to relax from missions and other stuff i do cuz i got time to read something or see a movie while i play and i think theres plenty of peeps that do the same
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.16 00:11:00 - [15] Originally by: Tutomech [ I do not see any point in being logged into a game if you are not playing it. I seen this in Kal online where a player has to stay online just for selling stuff. It created awfoul amounts of lag (not server load but alot of unnecesary network load)... All games are about is playing and socializing. But if you want second part only you can use IRC and save the subscription... Actually I get plenty of interaction in the game, even while mining. I have at least 4 chat windows open between Corp, alliance and friends. I am buying and selling all the time. I am watching for rats and directing drones. I feel no need to spend time "interacting" with an asteroid Quote: Why would this simple pattern recognition game scare away casual miners? What aspect of it? I think most pilots are put off to mining becose it is time consuming, repetative and... well boring. Why doesent CPP bring in casual PvP? I 'd love to sit back, read a book and kill some other pilot? Why would it interfere with casual players? Simply because they are here to relax, not have to deal with something constantly. Those that want to shoot at things do so to relax. Those that mine do so to relax. Make them manually deal with each asteroid and they won't bother. Fewer PC miners == higher prices and better profits for macros Quote: I disagree. Programming a mining laser is just like fitting a ship. The actual yield would still be skill based, just like it is now. Again: you can not setup a ship, undock and sit back and watch pretty lights while auto PvP-ing. You have to be active. But you ALREADY fitted the ship. No need to interactively pick each rock and where to hit, you can't do this with NPCing or PvP can you? I have to do the same mining as YOU do with NPCs: Fit my ship, Move to location, chose my target, deploy my defenses, watch local, determine if there is a danger, jump to station, etc. Actually right now for a miner it is MORE dangerous by far, even in Empire, than NPCing. Not very many PCs claim that your NPCing character is a Macro and suicides you. Quote: I suspect u have never coded pattern recognition programs. It is hard, very hard. If this trick works for google I think it could work for Eve too. At least this idea gives a big advantage to an active player and macros will be used less just becose they would mine much less then a player. FInd a solution that doesn't interfere with legitimate miners and you have my support. Make our time in eve more irritating or distracting and you will lose miners. It is CCP's job to figure out how to deal with macros, not ours. <-----------> Factional Warefare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Scordef	Posted - 2007.05.16 02:20:00 - [16] No. EverQuest 2 tradeskills are all 'mini games' and it's nothing but an irritating time sink. Oh wait, I just said 'time sink'. I hope CCP doesn't read this - they'll implement it straight away.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.16 05:51:00 - [17] Edited by: Tutomech on 16/05/2007 05:49:47 Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby I feel no need to spend time "interacting" with an asteroid Originally by: Yamichi Wiggin That's not how Eve works. imho, it's not how it should. We don't have minigames all over the place and I don't think we should. Originally by: Scordef EverQuest 2 tradeskills are all 'mini games' and it's nothing but an irritating time sink. Oh wait, I just said 'time sink'. I hope CCP doesn't read this - they'll implement it straight away. I see both of your point here. But I still think that mining should require a personal attention at least every 5 minutes (when all skills are maxed). If CPP can achieve this any other way than implementing a minigame it would be even greater. But please no more pointless and repetitive clicks. How about something like a area of asteroid selection then? Player has to look at 4 proposed preprogrammed laser paths and chose the one that he thinks would give him best mining yield bonus... This takes away the time sink and would still require minimal player interaction. Do you like this approach better?
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.05.16 07:41:00 - [18] Actually i made a thread about a mining upgrade thingy that people liked and would eliminate a bit of macro loving. Should dig it up.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.16 08:53:00 - [19] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Actually i made a thread about a mining upgrade thingy that people liked and would eliminate a bit of macro loving. Should dig it up. Oh old posts are hard to find... Well here it is: Sheriff Jones thread Looks like i am not the first one with this idea...
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.05.16 09:35:00 - [20] Originally by: Tutomech Originally by: Sheriff Jones Looks like i am not the first one with this idea... New ideas are hard to come by. Yours is different, but same underlining, make mining more interesting The fact that two individuals with totally different playstyles come up with a similar idea, doesn't make the other idea any less. Just means that this is something that is more populary wanted
Sam Gunn	Posted - 2007.05.16 15:14:00 - [21] If I had to draw lines on roids all day, I would leave eve. I mine most of my time in eve, and when mining with a group the last thing I want to worry about is something like this. The lag is bad enough, they need to stop adding stuff like this, and fix the problems they have.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.16 15:22:00 - [22] Originally by: Tutomech I see both of your point here. But I still think that mining should require a personal attention at least every 5 minutes (when all skills are maxed). Haven't mined much, have you? A moderately-skilled (NOT maxed) character can fill the hold of their mining barge in less than 2 cycles (3 minutes per cycle) of the strip miners. So even if you are jet mining you have to manually move your ore to the Jet Can every 3 minutes or your mining lasers shut off. PS-That is with the lows full of cargo extenders too. If you are mining in a cruiser, you can barely hold one cycle of your normal mining lasers, which have a one minute cycle time. I think you don't mine much and are trying to "fix" something you don't know much about <-----------> Factional Warefare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.16 15:43:00 - [23] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby If you are mining in a cruiser, you can barely hold one cycle of your normal mining lasers, which have a one minute cycle time. You missed the mine to target can in part 3 of the idea. TBH I like sheriffs idea better than mine atm. It fits better into Eve...
Emylissan Gallente European Science Armada	Posted - 2007.05.16 17:00:00 - [24] Edited by: Emylissan on 16/05/2007 16:58:52 I like it as it is now, rat attacks, ore thieves and the coordination of mining is already enough i have to worry about. Ask the NPC mission flyer and the PvP¦er if they would like a minigame popup when they activate a gun to fire at a ship Computer voice:"Please choose fire direction" And while they do they become already attacked by the enemies. So when i mine and have to play your minigame, than guritas destructor attack me, i have to cordinate my drones, lock on the rats, play your stupid game and trigger my shieldbooster to avoid loosing my ship. No thanks. ----------------------------------------------------- Everyone who finds a type error can keep it. -----------------------------------------------------
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.16 17:14:00 - [25] Originally by: Sam Gunn If I had to draw lines on roids all day, I would leave eve. I mine most of my time in eve, and when mining with a group the last thing I want to worry about is something like this. If you would be willing to mine without a special yield bonus you wouldn't have to draw lines. See post no. 17. I don't insist on implementing a minigame into Eve, but I do want pilots to be rewarded for their effort. Eve has the best economy model I have seen until now. It should not be about who has the most accounts (buying yourself a 1 man band is just as bad as buying ISK imo). And free market trade is not based on risk vs reward, it is based on supply and demand. Market would adopt to any changes. Originally by: Sam Gunn If I had to draw lines on asteroids all day, I would leave eve. I mine most of my time in eve, and when mining with a group the last thing I want to worry about is something like this. The lag is bad enough, they need to stop adding stuff like this, and fix the problems they have. How would implementation of this idea influence on lag? I don't think this would bring any noticeable lag into game, it would be a fairly simple client functionality. I am not sure, but I think most lag comes from too many people being in the same system. As each client has to know who is in the same system and communicate with them (as shown by local window). Having this said I will repeat myself: I like Seriff's idea even better. It is simpler and it fits into Eve just the right way.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.16 17:27:00 - [26] Originally by: Emylissan Ask the NPC mission flyer and the PvP¦er if they would like a minigame popup when they activate a gun to fire at a ship Please take a look at post number 17: avoiding the time sink. Originally by: Emylissan So when i mine and have to play your minigame, than guritas destructor attack me, i have to cordinate my drones, lock on the rats, play your stupid game and trigger my shieldbooster to avoid loosing my ship. Is it a good idea to solo mine? I think each mining op should have some guards on standby... Originally by: Emylissan No thanks. I think Sheriff had a much better idea than me, so please take a look at his proposal. Sheriff Jones thread Also take a look at the sorounding answers. Your concerns are already addressed there.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.16 18:02:00 - [27] Thing is that you don't seem to understand is that Macros DO NOT CARE if they get 10% smaller yield by not playing the silly games. They are going to chug away regardless. And the other thing you don't seem to understand is that PLAYERS DO NOT WANT to be forced to play silly games. The vast majority of miners already have enough to do without spending even 20 seconds goofing around with an asteroid and specifically targeting areas. They are normally mining to relax and are semi-afk. Fix things like abysmally small cargo holds in barges, Jet Can theft rules, "giant" secure containers that are so small you can fill one in a SINGLE cycle in a Covetor, etc and then maybe we will be willing to dork around. As it is even 20 seconds just seriously cut into my mining time because unless I run 2 accounts I have to jump back to station every 4.5 minutes to empty my cargo. Plus the majority of Roids you find in Empire take maybe 2 cycles to clear, so you are spending another 20-30 seconds every other cycle to target the ore veins in the Roids, time which we aren't mining. All the so-called "anti-macro" plans do is irritate normal miners and give them excuses not to mine, which in turn leads to increased profits for macros. "I" almost never log my miner in any more because its turned into too much of a hassle; one more legitimate barge that has left the dock twice in the last 2 months. Who is making up the difference of the loss of another miner? Macros. Instead of finding ways to deal with macros, why don't you try to explain to all the jerks out there that every time they petition a legitimate miner, every time they gank a miner, every time they play bump with a legitimate miner, every time they harass one in local, etc etc etc they are driving legitimate players away and PC STOP MINING. If more PCs were mining then profits would be down, mineral prices would be down and fewer macros could make real money from the ISK the mine. As it is, if the current trend and harassment of miners continues, the only ships that will be mining will be macros because its too much of an irritation to the players that are interested in doing it. <-----------> Factional Warefare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.16 19:03:00 - [28] Edited by: Tutomech on 16/05/2007 19:03:41 Edited by: Tutomech on 16/05/2007 19:01:53 Replay to Anaalys: If you are willing to do a work of a computer program that controls mouse and keyboard on a timer basis I have no problem with it. But I do think that each reward should be a reflect of someones effort. This does not mean that I want pointless/endless grinding in a game. A good game gives a goal that is achievable within a reasonable time and with reasonable effort. A great game gives many goals and choices between them. And I do think Eve is a great game. To sum up. I want better yields in mining and I am willing to work for it. And if you have not, do look at Sheriffs thread I think he got it better than me. I suggest we do stop here as our views on how and why to play games differ too much to be constructive. Thank you for presenting your point of view.
Sarf Asgard Industries Safe And Fun Environment	Posted - 2007.05.16 20:32:00 - [29] Edited by: Sarf on 16/05/2007 20:33:09 Everquest 2 has this neat( but a bit frustrating system) While you are crafting something everyone in a while a event happens and you can apply a counter. if you don't apply the counter in time you take damage. So this only works with Tunable-strip miners using crystals. The tunable strip miner comes in the same setting as current strip miners, but offer a greater level of control over the standard version. Event / counter / bonus / penalty - Unstable rock stratas / Laser Supports / normal ore mined / 10% - 50% less ore this cycle - Power level fluctuations / use Reserve power system / Normal ore mined / 1%-10% crystal damage - Gas Pocket / Directed venting / 5% - 20% more ore this cycle / Ore is 1 grade lower - Hidden ore pocket / Mine it / 1%-20% of mining cycle yield in higher Grade Ore / normal mining yield - Crystal fracture / nano reconstruction / 1%-5% crystal damage / crystal destroyed. - Reflective harmonics / precise tuning / 100% bonus ore this cycle / crystal destroyed If mining in 1.0 - 0.5 then ore is from the common ores for 0.4 - 0.1, if mining 0.4-0.1 then ore is common for 0.0 mining, mining 0.0 then ore is arkanor. Well there is my idea, what do you think? - Sarf CEO, Director of Freighter construction. Miner of small balls of dirt.
Mentonak	Posted - 2007.05.16 22:43:00 - [30] I've mined for weeks and weeks in highsec in eve. So much so I'm now the proud owner of a Rokh bpo (work that one out at 6 mil per hour...). Believe me when I say the LAST thing I wanted during those weeks was interrest. I just sat quietly and mined infront of the TV or even nothing at all. It was bliss compared with actually having to interact with my GF's mother micromanaging christmas to the last mince pie. But seriously a few points... 1 I like the idea of adding interrest to the game, but adding something that might reduce my mining rate would irratate the hell out of me when mining. 2 More specifically with your sudgestion, you mentioned security. All "programming" would have to be sent to the server for verification. This is gonna bump up the traffic a bit, but would, on the face of it, also make it easier to lag and have you're lazers stop for no obveous reason. 3 I noted someone's refference to EQII. "irratating time sink" is something of an understatement. Time sink maybe.. absolutely Gutting when your high-level rare fails because of a miner lag spike! 4 loosing target lock when shot by a single lazer. Sometimes you get aggroed every 5 mins by npcs for an hour. Thats just not practical. You're expecting me to spend an hour mining for sweet FA just because of unlucky respawns? hmm. no thankyou.
PastaMadaFaka	Posted - 2007.05.16 23:00:00 - [31] Edited by: PastaMadaFaka on 16/05/2007 23:02:23 that kind of mining will only promote 3 things 1 more lag 2 more macros cuz less ppl will be mining 3 mineral prices gona go up and peeps instead of mining will go buy the minerals from the macros or will start buying the goods from npcs to reprocess into minerals as said in other posts if i want something to do ill go rat :P question: do u mine anything? if yes what ship are u using?
Kill Sasuke	Posted - 2007.05.16 23:35:00 - [32] Edited by: Kill Sasuke on 16/05/2007 23:41:19 Instead of replacing mining with something like this, just give the option of using "computer automated" mining and "Manual" mining. By turning "manual" mode on you have to interact with the mining process but the pay off to the amount of m3 is much greater. Lets say, if you correctly performs an action it increases m3/cycle by 2-10 times. Perform actions incorrectly and you lower your m3/cycle anywhere from 1/10 to 9/10. The default will be determined by your setup/sp. In "automatic mode" your m3 stays the same as they are now. No bonus, no penalty. There will be hidden guild lines/criteria to determine what is the correct and incorrect action for each roid type and subtype. Successful and experienced miner would be able to mine much more time efficiently than someone who spend no time studying how to mine. Someone who has some experience (but not expert) with manual mode will not be able to mine as fast as an expert but will still be faster than the afk minor who uses the "Auto" mode.
Sarf Asgard Industries Safe And Fun Environment	Posted - 2007.05.16 23:50:00 - [33] Yes I mine I currently run 3 accounts, 2 hulks and a hauler, one of my miners is getting closet to the perfect yield for a hulk. I can run all 3 without any problems, in fact I see running 3 accounts a requirement, other wise there isn't enough to do and it gets boring. I totally agree there would be a bit more lag for the events, but not enough to cause a problem, also if you saw my post I said a new type of strip miner. so the current ones would still be there for tv watching. But even if you replaced the current strip miners with the new ones it would still be a good change. But the idea of having a mini game to make mining more interactive, yes I will probably not be able to run 3 accounts at one time, but I view that as a good change. Also I manufacture freighters also, I put up buy orders for 100m trit on weekly basis, I am fully aware of the impact of slowing mining down with a mini game will do to prices. After all that i am still in favor of making mining less automated. When I am mining with all 3 accounts i spend most of the time looking at the haulers screen. It is defiantly the most labor intensive of the the 3. I get both hulks mining in lock step, and have a stop watch running with a 3m count down. every 3 min approximately i swap back and move the ore to the jet can. I have seen the roid scanner idea before and I like the idea, but i would kind of like to see a system where if you don't pay attention then you get 1/2 the yield of normal, or lose your crystals at a much higher rate. Having to pay attention and deal with a event would be nice as it makes you a participant and not a observer. And timely response to these events would make your crystals last longer, and give you the rare bonus of higher minerals, or like it was suggested a exploration find. Lost artifact, or something To that idea I like it, but I would say that they should be treated like a ore. you get 4575 of plag, and 1 plag encrusted object. You take it back to the station and toss it in the refinery and out pops a random goodie for each. so if you refine 10 plag encrusted object, you get 10 random objects like exploration item, a chunk of alloy, lost data wafer, BPC for something ... It would make mining much better and interesting and make the mini profession something other than something you do when watching TV or reading a book (yes i have done both in the past) Mining need help to make it fun and engaging. - Sarf CEO, Director of Freighter construction. Miner of small balls of dirt.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.17 05:28:00 - [34] Added links to Sarf's sum up and Kill's proposal to the first post.
PastaMadaFaka	Posted - 2007.05.17 09:46:00 - [35] Edited by: PastaMadaFaka on 17/05/2007 09:49:40 still a no if u wana have more work buy a bs fit 8 mining lasers and start mining ull always have something to do every minute as i said in other posts this would only do the folowing 1 mineral price increase by 2 times or more 2 miners would mine less since they would stop using the alt miners 3 ccp would loose cash with accs 4 90% of current miners would just start training combat skills and start ratting 5 new players would also start as combat pilots and not mine anything... if u realy wana add that stuff add it to ice mining and not to ore mining or instead of having those ideas why dont u come up with a better mining ship tutomech do u mine? if yes whats ur mining ship? and how much do u mine everyday? i do mining so i can relax from not having to pay attention to the game all the time if i wana do more i have plenty to choose from with plenty of interaction , missions, salvaging, pvping, exploring, etc..
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.17 14:10:00 - [36] Edited by: Tutomech on 17/05/2007 14:09:43 Edited by: Tutomech on 17/05/2007 14:09:07 I don't know to which post you are reffering to, so i hope i do get the right answers. Also note that I changed the first post of this thread to include semi afk mining also. Quting self: To shorten all things up: IMO it is an insult to make me compete with a computer program that does keyboard presses and mouse moves based on a timer. However this thread is not about preventing mining in a semi-afk mode. It is about making mining rewarding for the pilots that are willing to put a little more effort into mining. Originally by: PastaMadaFaka if u wana have more work buy a bs fit 8 mining lasers and start mining ull always have something to do every minute But it is still a repetative and predictable gameplay... Originally by: PastaMadaFaka 1 mineral price increase by 2 times or more Why is this a bad thing? Do not see anything wrong with this. But i am sure that the higher the mineral prices would motivate more players to mine and free market always adapts... Originally by: PastaMadaFaka 2 miners would mine less since they would stop using the alt miners I do think many dedicated miners want this to happen. Each player in an MMO game like Eve wants to advace and be better than most at what he does but with equal chanches. I see multiple alts oneman bands as some sort of easy way out and it is handy: why bother making friends, buy yourself some alts... Originally by: PastaMadaFaka 3 ccp would loose cash with accs Not realy my consern. But I do think (or I hope) that CPP does want to improve quality and entertainment value of Eve. And a great game always attracts custumers. Originally by: PastaMadaFaka 4 90% of current miners would just start training combat skills and start ratting I think most multiple account owners do exactly this while mining. IMO this is an unfair advantage to all 1 account players out there. I am a new player and i do want to become more engaged into industry and production. This is not about ISK. I love space, ships, production, resource gathering, trade and combat... Eve is everything I have been looking for since Frontier: Elite II, well almost everything, except mining. Originally by: PastaMadaFaka if u realy wana add that stuff add it to ice mining and not to ore mining or instead of having those ideas why dont u come up with a better mining ship Why add it to ice mining and not ore mining? A better mining ship / higher yield does not enhance gameplay. And I don't think that mining ships should have large cargo hoalds at all. Instead miningships should jettison ore into space right away. It is up to the hauler proffesion to transport large quantities of ore, not miners. Mining to cargohold also introduces unnecesary interaction, but biggest problem is that mining is repetative and predictable. Originally by: PastaMadaFaka tutomech do u mine? if yes whats ur mining ship? and how much do u mine everyday? Yes I do mine. As my corporation requires minerals for production. I have been actively mining for about 4 hours / day in corporation operations and i am realy dissaponted by it. Not that I want a lot of action, I want diversity and a bit of unpredictability. But to me mining just doesn't feel like playing a game at all. It feels like... hmmmm clicking. And I do want to mine, it is good for may corp. Originally by: PastaMadaFaka i do mining so i can relax If you do want to relax I suggest you keep mining in the auto (sub-optimal) mode, get more into roleplaying or log off and get comfortable with a good book.
Sarf Asgard Industries Safe And Fun Environment	Posted - 2007.05.17 16:40:00 - [37] nice rebuttal. We have to be careful to not upset the balance of mineral supply to demand. CCP obviously things mining is balanced, so we don't want to upset that, just add a element that makes mining a game instead of a time sink. The random object should be a event. If you deal with the event then you get the encrusted object if you don't then it is lost. I kind of like the idea of increasing the yield if you are paying attention, but that would change the balancing of the game. I think the current maximum yield should be maintained. - Sarf CEO, Director of Freighter construction. Miner of small balls of dirt.
Noodles Rage	Posted - 2007.05.17 19:14:00 - [38] u are forgeting that eve is not a grinding game, but a casual one.. if i wanted to start playing a game where i have to grind for my stuff theres plenty to choose from arround
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.17 20:44:00 - [39] Edited by: Tutomech on 17/05/2007 20:42:46 Originally by: Noodles Rage u are forgetting that eve is not a grinding game, but a casual one.. No this is not grinding. Grinding is mostly hard and repetitive work with little chance of success or the goal of work moved into far future. I am talking about events, player action and reaction. Here results of miners effort arrive just after doing it. And I am not talking about making mining a clicking game. But mining should require something like configuration for each asteroid. This would require something like 3 clicks every 3 to 5 minutes but a player needs to look at scanning results and adjust 1 or 2 parameters, I can not see any grinding in that. But if we do want to go other way around - the casual way... Why not make mining fully automated? Why do I have to repeat same clicks and mouse clicks over and over and over and over and over and over again without even bothering to look at the screen? So it wouldn't require any interaction at all. But why not? Kal-online has egging(advancing some form of morphing ability) and fishing fully automated... But I don't think this is playing the game. I just don't see any point in being online if i do not want to play a game... Maybe someone can explain me that - why do i have to be logged into a game if I want to watch a movie or read a book. -- signature --- A good game gives goals that can be achieved within reasonable time and with reasonable effort. A great game gives many goals and many choiches between them.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.17 21:18:00 - [40] Originally by: Sarf We have to be careful to not upset the balance of mineral supply to demand. A free market always balances in time. If mineral prices go up more pilots will mine and bring it down. If prices fall the casual miners would just go to ratting or doing missions and buy the minerals. I do think that ingame prices of items are set by availability of ore and BPs. So if ore prices rise also all player made items prices would rise. But if ore prices fall also prices for items sold on the market would fall... -- signature --- A good game gives goals that can be achieved within reasonable time and with reasonable effort. A great game gives many goals and many choices between them.
Sarf Asgard Industries Safe And Fun Environment	Posted - 2007.05.17 21:24:00 - [41] star wars galaxy tried the fully automated mining and resource gathering, you just planted a bunch of harvesters and went around to collect the ore every day. In eve that would be like planting a small pos with a bunch of mining stations, and swing by once a day in your freighter to pick up all the ore. Or have a refiner to distill it down for you. That would be even less player interaction, what we are asking for is make mining a challenge, not a mindless activity. What would you think of combat if you warped in, targeted a ship and said kill. Then you could walk away and in 3 min you come back and the computer has decided who won. You have no input other than saying attack. If that was the case I think you would be screaming that combat was boring, there wasn't any fun in it. We are asking for something to engage our minds on when mining, not click the button and when ore appears drag it to the jet can window. We want to make choices that affect the outcome of mining. We want to feel like we are in control of the mining and not glorified ore handlers. even if all you had to do is read two numbers and add them together and type in the answer to increase the yeild, that is at least player interaction with the game. Oh I though of another event. event/ counter/ good/ bad Stress fracture/ reposition mining laser/ keep mining/ asteroid fractures and pops out of existence. - Sarf CEO, Director of Freighter construction. Miner of small balls of dirt.
Michela Bosun Shipyards	Posted - 2007.05.21 08:21:00 - [42] Quote: That would be even less player interaction, what we are asking for is make mining a challenge, not a mindless activity. If you want a challenge, go PvP, go run missions, go trade, go do something else. Mining is a nice relaxing activity. Let's leave it this way. I left WOW because of the stupid grind. EVE is a non-grind game. Let's leave it like that. If macro miners bother you, go gank them, go steal their ore and blow it up.
JanSVK	Posted - 2007.05.21 10:35:00 - [43] I support making mining more rewarding if you willing to spend the effort. Originally by: Tutomech I just don't see any point in being online if i do not want to play a game... Maybe someone can explain me that - why do i have to be logged into a game if I want to watch a movie or read a book. You mine because you want to make isk or enlarge assets eather by selling the mins or building something from them and sell/use that. You hunt NPC or missions to make isk or get some items. I am doing all of this and all of these activities are booring in the long run. 1, Warp in 2, Target 3, Activate miner/weapon wait till target pops 4, return to point 2 or 1 if no target in range. So it is logical to be online and watch a movie or read a book during mining because you mine the same amouth regardless if you watching the miners go ssshhh ssshhh or a movie/book whitch is definetly more exciting. Originally by: Sarf CCP obviously things mining is balanced, so we don't want to upset that, just add a element that makes mining a game instead of a time sink. I hope that is not true. 3 isk for trit, 6-8 for pyrite, 20-25 mexalon, 1000 for Zyd, 2000 for morphyte for me this looks very wrong. Zyd is the main income for 0.0 miners unless you got Arkonor but only a few systems have Arkonor and even this is nerfed by the zyd prices. Trit,pye,mex is main income for hi-sec miners. As it is now you make almost same isk in 0.0 as in hi-sec mining with uncomparable risk.
PastaMadaFaka	Posted - 2007.05.21 17:12:00 - [44] its only a risk if u mine alone in 0.0 where u are supposed to have an escort to take care of rats or just in case someone comes along also u still make more cash in 0.0 mining http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=517638 check that topic it has some numbers u can use as a reference and btw where are u buying ur trit ? i wana sell trit at those prices lol
Camilo Cienfuegos Caldari EP0CH	Posted - 2007.05.25 18:17:00 - [45] Quote: Ask the NPC mission flyer and the PvP¦er if they would like a minigame popup when they activate a gun to fire at a ship Actually, this sounds rather fun. It'd be quite nice (though probably rather impractical) if upon target acquisition, I was presented with a window showing the ship I'm attacking, and providing the ability to target specific areas of the ship, allowing me to blow off modules/disable engines and so on based on chance/skills - or just shoot like hell and hope. It's off on a tangent yes, but these "mini-games" of which you speak aren't nearly as bad as you make out. Given a little ingenuity, they could be rather good. As for mining, I do like some of the suggestions made but as usual have my own. The current mining setup is tedious, boring and far to condusive to macro'ing (with the overview settings as they are, I reckon I could knock a pretty effective mining/hauling macro together in about 10 minutes, including testing). Problem: Cargo capacity. I like the fact that to mine effectively you require multiple characters (miners, haulers, tankers) and forcing you to anchor a secure can or use a jetcan to pass the ore to the hauler - but the actual process of jettisoning could easily be automated. Take barges: strip miners have a three minute cycle time, and jetcans can be ****ed every three minutes... Solution: Allow automated jetcans on all mining ships, or perhaps alter the bonuses on one of the T2 miners to reduce it's current yield, but give the ability to jettison automatically a full cargo hold. I personally feel that it's not unreasonable that a shi pwould attempt to jettison it's cargo if the hold was too full and would love to see ALL ships with the ability to automatically jettison cargo when full. Problem: Ore availability As it stands, macro and non macro miners alike are stripping every decent roid belt in highsec space and leaving nothing but veldspar behind (if even that). Solution: Asteroid types Rather than have the different asteroids as currently it is, perhaps it would make more sense to alter the survey scanner to operate on a targeted asteroid. These "generic" roids could contain multiple minerals based on the sec status of the system (just as it is now), so it's impossible for a macro miner to go belt to belt as they do mining out all the decent ores. Example: I warp to a belt in a 0.5 system, lock the nearest roid and scan it. It returns 20,000 veldspar, 10,000 scordite, 5,000 pyroxeres and 1,000 Kernite within. If I were to mine the roid to depletion, I would get a percentage of those readings based upon my mining skills and equipment. If using crystals, it could alter the prioritisation - so instead of mining an even percentage of the minerals contained within an asteroid, you would (for example) suck it dry of scordite long before the roid had popped.
Sarf Asgard Industries Safe And Fun Environment	Posted - 2007.05.25 20:17:00 - [46] Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos Problem: Cargo capacity. I like the fact that to mine effectively you require multiple characters (miners, haulers, tankers) and forcing you to anchor a secure can or use a jetcan to pass the ore to the hauler - but the actual process of jettisoning could easily be automated. Take barges: strip miners have a three minute cycle time, and jetcans can be ****ed every three minutes... Solution: Allow automated jetcans on all mining ships, or perhaps alter the bonuses on one of the T2 miners to reduce it's current yield, but give the ability to jettison automatically a full cargo hold. I personally feel that it's not unreasonable that a shi p would attempt to jettison it's cargo if the hold was too full and would love to see ALL ships with the ability to automatically jettison cargo when full. Auto jet can's wouldn't make it any better, we would still be mining with jet cans. it would just mean that there would be more cans, not less. Secure can's are ridiculously small for a strip miner! and jet can's are a source of greifing. A ore thief just has a couple of friends in cloak and come in a shuttle, move some ore to his own can, then moves all your to that jet can. then if you add more ore to it, or take back your ore, his friends de cloak and waste you. I think a better solution would be the mid slot cargo transfer module. each mining barge fits one, then hauler pulls up and targets the miner, activates the module, and if you activate yours then both ships get a cargo window for the other ship. either the huer or the miner can transfer ore (and only ore) to the other ship. so either the hauler or the miner transfers the ore. And I would think that mining barges should get about 10k in hold space. - Sarf CEO, Director of Freighter construction. Miner of small balls of dirt.
Sarf Asgard Industries Safe And Fun Environment	Posted - 2007.05.25 20:28:00 - [47] Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos Problem: Ore availability As it stands, macro and non macro miners alike are stripping every decent roid belt in highsec space and leaving nothing but veldspar behind (if even that). Solution: Asteroid types Rather than have the different asteroids as currently it is, perhaps it would make more sense to alter the survey scanner to operate on a targeted asteroid. These "generic" roids could contain multiple minerals based on the sec status of the system (just as it is now), so it's impossible for a macro miner to go belt to belt as they do mining out all the decent ores. Example: I warp to a belt in a 0.5 system, lock the nearest roid and scan it. It returns 20,000 veldspar, 10,000 scordite, 5,000 pyroxeres and 1,000 Kernite within. If I were to mine the roid to depletion, I would get a percentage of those readings based upon my mining skills and equipment. If using crystals, it could alter the prioritisation - so instead of mining an even percentage of the minerals contained within an asteroid, you would (for example) suck it dry of scordite long before the roid had popped. Not bad idea, but macro miners would adapt fast to use the scanner and only mine what they want. So in the end all it will do is make the belts look like they arn't mined out. The bottom line unless we have something like type in a number you see in a picture, we won't eliminate macro miners, let alone a isk farmer, that hires a 3rd world person to play the game for 18h per day. Basically we need something that involves human intervention to prevent the mining operation from grinding down to a halt. If the mining just stops then a miner can't go afk for legit call of nature for a moment. I still like the idea of having events during the mining cycles that need player attentions. - Sarf CEO, Director of Freighter construction. Miner of small balls of dirt.
Duhmad IbnRa Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.26 04:22:00 - [48] My proposal to this: 1. change the overview so that it only shows asteroids as asteroids and not what ore type. 2. make the roid scanner a necessity by this and remove its ability to sort the result by ore or amount contained. 3. add static roids that contain only rock and yield nothing. could be used for housing later on like in "X2:the threat" 4. have roids produce ECM shockwaves every once in while when the mining cycle is COMPLETE (important for ice mining). Mercoxit already does, but damages the hull. the probability of a shockwave should increase with the number of cycles used on the same roid. 5. Allow ECM and scramb and webing in empire. Victim should be allowed to retaliate though. (maybe a bit too harsh though) _________________________________________________ For more players and action in lowsec http://mye
Camilo Cienfuegos Caldari EP0CH	Posted - 2007.05.26 19:51:00 - [49] Quote: macro miners would adapt fast to use the scanner and only mine what they want. So in the end all it will do is make the belts look like they arn't mined out. I didn't mean that they would use the scanner, select the most valuable mineral and mine it - they have to take the wheat and the chaff; if an asteroid contains 10,000 veldspar and 1,000 pyroxeres, each cycle would deposit equal proportions of all minerals contained within it. This would prevent macro miners from depleting all the high end ores from the highsec systems, allowing new miners to have a ***** at them.
Sarf Asgard Industries Safe And Fun Environment	Posted - 2007.05.26 23:08:00 - [50] Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos Quote: macro miners would adapt fast to use the scanner and only mine what they want. So in the end all it will do is make the belts look like they arn't mined out. I didn't mean that they would use the scanner, select the most valuable mineral and mine it - they have to take the wheat and the chaff; if an asteroid contains 10,000 veldspar and 1,000 pyroxeres, each cycle would deposit equal proportions of all minerals contained within it. This would prevent macro miners from depleting all the high end ores from the highsec systems, allowing new miners to have a ***** at them. I mis understood. yea that would help, it would mean that legit miners couldn't targeted mine either, Right now i try to mine allot of scord and plag as i need lots of pyr, and mex for freighters, and buy the rest. It would make mining less profitable but fairer. - Sarf CEO, Director of Freighter construction. Miner of small balls of dirt.
Sarf Asgard Industries Safe And Fun Environment	Posted - 2007.05.26 23:13:00 - [51] Originally by: Duhmad IbnRa My proposal to this: 1. change the overview so that it only shows asteroids as asteroids and not what ore type. ok so everone uses a scanner, then most mining barges are going to need another mid slot, and bit more cpu, and power. Originally by: Duhmad IbnRa 2. make the roid scanner a necessity by this and remove its ability to sort the result by ore or amount contained. this will ** everone off, but i see what you are trying to do, make it so that you can't mine the largest rock, you just have to mine the next rock. Originally by:** Duhmad IbnRa 3. add static roids that contain only rock and yield nothing. could be used for housing later on like in "X2:the threat" interesting, a rock that produce nothing but 'fake ore' that would ** off someone if they spent all day mining, and refine and get zip! i could see allot of newbie miner crying over that one. this idea must come from 'eve is pvp' nerf everything else!' camp. Originally by:** Duhmad IbnRa 4. have roids produce ECM shockwaves every once in while when the mining cycle is COMPLETE (important for ice mining). Mercoxit already does, but damages the hull. the probability of a shockwave should increase with the number of cycles used on the same roid. ok so the macro miners now have the advantage. they make there script untarget and retarget each cycle.. us mining by hand would be worse off. Originally by: Duhmad IbnRa 5. Allow ECM and scramb and webing in empire. Victim should be allowed to retaliate though. (maybe a bit too harsh though) this would make griefing people way to easy. someone sites there and ecms a miner and spams local 'pay me 2mill and I go away for 1 hour' worst suggestion yet. - Sarf CEO, Director of Freighter construction. Miner of small balls of dirt.
Camilo Cienfuegos Caldari EP0CH	Posted - 2007.05.27 00:11:00 - [52] Quote: it would mean that legit miners couldn't targeted mine either, Right now i try to mine allot of scord and plag as i need lots of pyr, and mex for freighters, and buy the rest. You could - but you'd require drone assistance. Rather than picking the good roids from the belts in highsec, you'd be forced to go to lowsec systems - which is something CCP are encouraging anyway - to get high quantities of the better minerals from the roids you find. It could even be based on your skills: For example, you'd never get arkonor in a 0.8 system, but a highly skilled miner might be able to find it in small quantities in a 0.4. Likewise, the way I see it you'd find roids with a fairly equal mix of scordite/plagioclase/pyroxeres/veldspar in systems as high as 0.5 As it stands anyway, something needs to change. Exploration may go some way to helping, but if the system stays the same all it'll change is that the macro miners will have to scan down their belts before sending the legions of mining ships in for the next 23 hours. Something like the proposal here would simply prevent macro'ing from being a profitable profession, whilst allowing active miners to make a good profit ninja-mining in lowsec.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.27 04:05:00 - [53] Its been said over and over again, there is ONE way to defeat macros and ONLY one way: Remove those that buy ISK. CCP is already working on disallowing the sales of GTCs, etc from ISK so that all sales will have to be organized outside of game. As it is all the "make mining more fun and get rid of macros" will only drive out real players, leaving only macros mining. PS: Altering the agression rules to allow ECM etc in empire is STUPID. Lets just finish the plan and remove concord protection for all miners while we are at it <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Sarf Asgard Industries Safe And Fun Environment	Posted - 2007.05.28 13:58:00 - [54] Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos You could - but you'd require drone assistance. Rather than picking the good roids from the belts in highsec, you'd be forced to go to lowsec systems - which is something CCP are encouraging anyway - to get high quantities of the better minerals from the roids you find. It could even be based on your skills: For example, you'd never get arkonor in a 0.8 system, but a highly skilled miner might be able to find it in small quantities in a 0.4. Likewise, the way I see it you'd find roids with a fairly equal mix of scordite/plagioclase/pyroxeres/veldspar in systems as high as 0.5 Mining for me is a solo activity, I like mining without a huge op going. And I won't be going to low sec (haven't since beta, don't plan on it in the future either) So we would eliminate a mode of game play for a large section of the game. Basically you want to make it so that you lock on to a rock and get whatever comes out, I can live with that, but you have to realize I am not interested in getting higher level ores. I am not going to go to a 0.4 system to get better ore, just not worth the risk, or time and effort to have protection. As it is my biggest problem is ore thieves. Beside the point of this is to make mining more fund, and reduce macro miners. Driving the macroer to lowsec where they could be shot would do this, but would also drive all the legit miners that don't want to be in low sec. If CCP really wanted to do this, they would simply remove all belts from highsec space. I expect with the move of belts to exploration sights, that we will see the level of rats increase for the better belts in a system. And this might make having a bit of cover needed. - Sarf CEO, Director of Freighter construction. Miner of small balls of dirt.
Camilo Cienfuegos Caldari EP0CH	Posted - 2007.05.28 23:22:00 - [55] Firstly... mining in lowsec really is fun, although admittedly in most areas at present somewhat suicidal. Exploration will hopefully make it much, much harder to be scanned down which means rather than being concerned with two or three people being in local with you, you need only really panic either when the probes appear on scanner, or when local counts fly up. I digress though... I really wanted to post to bandy the thought that the mining cycle time should be reduced to one second and the yield dropped appropriately. This would mean that you could watch the process and have it actually feel real-time (rather than as it currently does, feel like every three minutes you're hitting yourself with a hammer) and would go some way to relieve the tedium of mining without requiring any code changes (presumubably, base data like cycle times is held in the database and then calculated based upon your skills and equipment...). It might not change much, but I feel importantly it would change mining from activating and waiting, to mining!
Sarf Asgard Industries Safe And Fun Environment	Posted - 2007.05.29 00:37:00 - [56] Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos I really wanted to post to bandy the thought that the mining cycle time should be reduced to one second and the yield dropped appropriately. This would mean that you could watch the process and have it actually feel real-time (rather than as it currently does, feel like every three minutes you're hitting yourself with a hammer) and would go some way to relieve the tedium of mining without requiring any code changes (presumubably, base data like cycle times is held in the database and then calculated based upon your skills and equipment...). I could be wrong but I think the long cycle time is to reduce server lag, if the clinet has to hit the server every second to update how much ore is in your hold then that is allot more bandwidth and cpu usage on the server. right now it sends a packet every 3 min saying, here is your ore, continuing to mine. Or it sends here is your ore, rock depleted. If it was every second then it would be that message every second. - Sarf CEO, Director of Freighter construction. Miner of small balls of dirt.
Duhmad IbnRa Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.12 09:10:00 - [57] Originally by: Sarf Originally by: Duhmad IbnRa My proposal to this: 1. change the overview so that it only shows asteroids as asteroids and not what ore type. ok so everone uses a scanner, then most mining barges are going to need another mid slot, and bit more cpu, and power. Originally by: Duhmad IbnRa 2. make the roid scanner a necessity by this and remove its ability to sort the result by ore or amount contained. this will ** everone off, but i see what you are trying to do, make it so that you can't mine the largest rock, you just have to mine the next rock. Originally by:** Duhmad IbnRa 3. add static roids that contain only rock and yield nothing. could be used for housing later on like in "X2:the threat" interesting, a rock that produce nothing but 'fake ore' that would ** off someone if they spent all day mining, and refine and get zip! i could see allot of newbie miner crying over that one. this idea must come from 'eve is pvp' nerf everything else!' camp. Originally by:** Duhmad IbnRa 4. have roids produce ECM shockwaves every once in while when the mining cycle is COMPLETE (important for ice mining). Mercoxit already does, but damages the hull. the probability of a shockwave should increase with the number of cycles used on the same roid. ok so the macro miners now have the advantage. they make there script untarget and retarget each cycle.. us mining by hand would be worse off. Originally by: Duhmad IbnRa 5. Allow ECM and scramb and webing in empire. Victim should be allowed to retaliate though. (maybe a bit too harsh though) this would make griefing people way to easy. someone sites there and ecms a miner and spams local 'pay me 2mill and I go away for 1 hour' worst suggestion yet. 1 + 2 +3 Actually the idea was that u would have to use the scanner and then look through the list, instead of locking the top three, in order to find a roid which has a good yield and is not a fake. This is something a macro cant do (at least it requires an extreme amount of effort to programm one that can, graphic buffer readout,OCR text recognition) The scanner could be part of any ship (ccp could really spare us the med slot, survey scanners are not really worth it) 4 mmh, good point, hadnt thought of that.... 5 yeah, as i said, maybe a bit to harsh... btw. i am a miner and have very few combat skills... _________________________________________________ For more players and action in lowsec
GIGAR	Posted - 2007.08.29 13:20:00 - [58] I think it would be a great idea. However, I think that you should be able to still do the "relax" mining, though it would just be basic yield :) Bonus for active people, normal for inactive/macros. The best solution for all I think :)
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.08.29 21:14:00 - [59] No. *No goddamn minigames.*
Anatrial	Posted - 2007.08.30 10:41:00 - [60] Is this idea supposed to make it difficult for "macro" miners? I think you'd bump off the handful of low end guys using recorded keystrokes. The ones who are farming like there's no tommorrow would have to have something a little smarter than that though. Some kind of image recognition and basic state machine at the least. They'd rewrite their mining software and be making the 10% extra yield.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.30 12:20:00 - [61] If I was going to turn mining into a mini-game I would pretty much take Dwarf Fortress, pare down some of the "fortress management" aspects but retain the ore veins, transport and hauling etc. Mining would then be accomplished by the miner firing a mining module at the asteroid that would tether it there and let you play. The upshot would be faster, better yields if you did it right. The mining module itself would be invulnerable, and would be recoverable if you had to warp off from the belt.
ViolenTUK	Posted - 2007.08.30 15:13:00 - [62] If this were an option and mining could still be done the same way as before then this could work. www.eve-players.com
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.30 16:46:00 - [63] Originally by: Ilvan No. *No goddamn minigames.* Ilvan opinion signed and reproduced in triplicate. Some of the genius proposing minigames while mining have ever thought about the effect in low sec/0.0? Playing a minigame is not conductive to keeping an eye on local and maybe scanning fro probes while you mine your asteroid found with esploration. Want miner to juggle too while mining so they are more entretaining and easy to kill?

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