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LORD IZE	Posted - 2007.05.18 13:05:00 - [1] CCP when are you going to acknowledge AFK Cloakers are the same as macro users, ie, people "playing" eve while actually NOT playing EVE? ITs BS that people can turn on their cloak and leave for the day immune to any form of interaction from people actually playing the game while they impact them. At least give us a probe that may take 30 minutes for results so that this practice can be stopped. I have no problem with cloakers but AFK players are cheats and should be treated as such.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.18 13:32:00 - [2] Originally by: LORD IZE CCP when are you going to acknowledge AFK Cloakers are the same as macro users, ie, people "playing" eve while actually NOT playing EVE? ITs BS that people can turn on their cloak and leave for the day immune to any form of interaction from people actually playing the game while they impact them. At least give us a probe that may take 30 minutes for results so that this practice can be stopped. I have no problem with cloakers but AFK players are cheats and should be treated as such. Why are they cheats? Because you can't shoot them? What is the point of being cloaked if you can be found? The game mechanics are fine and ships that fit a cloak are already nerfed. Nor can they hurt you. If you are "afraid" of a cloaked ship in your 0.0 space or something like that do what you tell all of us Carebears in Empire to do: Don't fly afk and bring a friend for cover. I have zero sympathy for whining about not being able to do something because "we don't know where they are" or any such BS. Enough of this game gets nerfed, leave it alone. <-----------> Factional Warefare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Kramer Verone Amarr	Posted - 2007.05.18 18:27:00 - [3] a perfect example of someone abusing local perhaps, ccp should investigate if cloakers that are a certain a.u away from stargates should be removed from local.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Cadien Cybernetics	Posted - 2007.05.18 18:52:00 - [4] Great.. as usual we're going to have lots of people who use it arguing in favour and people who don't use it arguing against it, eh? So much for that, and 'objectivity' in particular. If CCP decides to change local, this issue will probably go away with it. If CCP doesn't change local in a way that makes 'afk scouting' unfeasible, some means to detect afk cloakers might be needed. I daresay 30min or 1h scan time would hardly make cloakers useless. _________________________________ - People are people wherever you go -
Yamichi Wiggin Caldari Rising Knights SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.18 19:42:00 - [5] Ummmm I cloak. Not AFK, mind you. Part of me feels dirty when I go take a bio break or whatever and KNOW that I can't be touched even if I'm the only blue in the system. I can chill out 500km off a stargate and monitor traffic and I can be 100% certain I won't get touched. Ever. I think that's silly. Even the backstory doesn't really support it. Two of the three cloaks are imperfect prototypes. They shouldn't be perfect. The covert ops cloak... I'm torn. It SHOULD be a perfect cloak. But nothing in the game should be unbeatable. I use NOS also but that doesn't mean i don't think it's overpowered against small ships. ------ Pain is weakness leaving the body. There is no love in fear
Drizit Amarr	Posted - 2007.05.19 00:17:00 - [6] So what is the difference between an AFK cloaker and someone who has docked and gone AFK? They are still logged in but still not playing. Are they also cheats? I run a mission and clear out a level but before I take the acceleration gate to the next level, I go and make a coffee. Am I a cheat as well then since I am effectively well off the normal routes or SS positions so it's extremely hard, if not impossible to scan me out? In every case above, the player is in local, is AFK and pretty much out of scan range. So that makes a good 60% of Eve players cheats at some time or other according to your logic. There is even a good chance that the player isn't cloaked, maybe they have found a near perfect SS that you have yet to figure out. I once sat in my alt account just off the grid above their POS and it took 5 hours for them to finally find me because nobody though to look that close to their own POS. Even then it was only because someone opened their ship scanner and saw me soon after they undocked (before the standard ship scanners were nerfed). Also probes only look on the horizontal plane so anything bove or below isn't seen. Take an inty and fly up or down on MWD for long enough and there's no probe that will find you, it doesn't need to be cloaked. What it needs is for probes to scan a globe rather than a flat plane. Just because you can't find them, it doesn't mean they are cloaked at all so why nerf cloakers on an assumption? --
Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.19 01:01:00 - [7] Originally by: Drizit So what is the difference between an AFK cloaker and someone who has docked and gone AFK? They are still logged in but still not playing. Are they also cheats? I run a mission and clear out a level but before I take the acceleration gate to the next level, I go and make a coffee. Am I a cheat as well then since I am effectively well off the normal routes or SS positions so it's extremely hard, if not impossible to scan me out? In every case above, the player is in local, is AFK and pretty much out of scan range. So that makes a good 60% of Eve players cheats at some time or other according to your logic. There is even a good chance that the player isn't cloaked, maybe they have found a near perfect SS that you have yet to figure out. I once sat in my alt account just off the grid above their POS and it took 5 hours for them to finally find me because nobody though to look that close to their own POS. Even then it was only because someone opened their ship scanner and saw me soon after they undocked (before the standard ship scanners were nerfed). Also probes only look on the horizontal plane so anything bove or below isn't seen. Take an inty and fly up or down on MWD for long enough and there's no probe that will find you, it doesn't need to be cloaked. What it needs is for probes to scan a globe rather than a flat plane. Just because you can't find them, it doesn't mean they are cloaked at all so why nerf cloakers on an assumption? I will not speak or answer about your views as I don't feel strongly for either side of the argument. But the information you provide is half false, half outdated, nothing accurate. For starters, there is no "perfect safespot". Observators will find you anywhere given time. That has ALWAYS been the case and they always did work spherically, so the rest is moot anyway, BUT... Second, someone that doesn't scan outside his own station to find you is an idiot, you're not smart hiding there. I know it's the first thing I scan. Third, probes work spherically, not horizontally, at least not for a few months now - what a REVELATIONS that was I can only understand how you missed that if you have been away from the game. Even so, reading patch notes every now and then couldn't hurt. Fourth, since the multiple-mwd nerf, an inty would take a few WEEKS at least to travel any meaningful distance talking about astronomic units (of course, since probes DO NOT scout horizontally but spherically, it is pointless anyway) In short, I would suggest dusting off the new info and patch notes a bit...
Drizit Amarr	Posted - 2007.05.19 01:25:00 - [8] Originally by: Neuromandis Third, probes work spherically, not horizontally, at least not for a few months now - what a REVELATIONS that was I can only understand how you missed that if you have been away from the game. Even so, reading patch notes every now and then couldn't hurt. I was away for about 6 months with no internet. Prior to that, they always worked horizontally so they obviously changed things. I tried probes to find some things before my time offline and decided that my time spent training the skills was wasted since I couldn't get on the plane that I needed to scan on. Maybe it's time to dust off that probe launcher again and check the expiry date on those probes I packed away in the bottom of the station container. Therefore it's possible to scan near the station now but unless you used the ship scanner before and looked in the right direction, it was near impossible before. The observator probe didn't operate back then as it does now either, drones were visible on ship scanner but not possible to probe for as an example. It still doesn't alter the fact that someone AFK isn't really a risk so what does it matter if they are cloaked or not? --
Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.19 08:48:00 - [9] Edited by: Neuromandis on 19/05/2007 08:46:45 Originally by: Drizit I was away for about 6 months with no internet. Prior to that, they always worked horizontally so they obviously changed things. I tried probes to find some things before my time offline and decided that my time spent training the skills was wasted since I couldn't get on the plane that I needed to scan on. Maybe it's time to dust off that probe launcher again and check the expiry date on those probes I packed away in the bottom of the station container. /me hands you the vacuum cleaner. Probes work like a charm now. In fact I would say that they work too good. You can create practically system wide coverance in many cases, you need but a single probe to find anything and generally, they are a very very nice toy now. Of course now it is mainly character skill-based and not player skill-based, but you can't have everything. Happy probing.
BluOrange Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:12:00 - [10] AFK cloakers and logoffskis are two sides of the same coin, IMO. I'd be in favour of being able to track down an AFK cloaker if we could also track down a logoffski. ------ Agony Unleashed is recruiting.

Meditril	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:35:00 - [11] How do you know that a cloaker is AFK? Remove cloakers from Local and the problem is solved.
Major Stallion The Dark Horses Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.19 15:21:00 - [12] Originally by: Meditril How do you know that a cloaker is AFK? Remove cloakers from Local and the problem is solved. remove cloakers from local...lmfao. I can see the new FOTM now. Fully cloak fitted gangs disappearing from local. Your answer is most definitely NOT the solution.
PastaMadaFaka	Posted - 2007.05.19 16:44:00 - [13] Originally by: LORD IZE CCP when are you going to acknowledge AFK Cloakers are the same as macro users, ie, people "playing" eve while actually NOT playing EVE? ITs BS that people can turn on their cloak and leave for the day immune to any form of interaction from people actually playing the game while they impact them. At least give us a probe that may take 30 minutes for results so that this practice can be stopped. I have no problem with cloakers but AFK players are cheats and should be treated as such. looolz whats a cloak good for if u cant hide? dont forget that a cloak kills ir scan resolution and ur speed if a cloaked bs uncloaks in ur mining belt u got 15 seconds to warp out assuming u are paying attention to ur overview and assuming that the bs cloaked pilot has the cloak skill at lvl5 so u got 15 secs + the targeting time of the said bs to start moving out ( if hes using a cheap cloak ie prototype version ) if its a cov ops ship well if ur mining in a hulk a buzzard would prob die from ur drones as for a bomber if u have decent resists and a decent booster on ur hulk u can always hold on and call help same goes if its a bs now if u are mining in a mining barge and not an exhumer its ur own fault for not having protection near u...
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.19 16:45:00 - [14] Originally by: Major Stallion Originally by: Meditril How do you know that a cloaker is AFK? Remove cloakers from Local and the problem is solved. remove cloakers from local...lmfao. I can see the new FOTM now. Fully cloak fitted gangs disappearing from local. Your answer is most definitely NOT the solution. Actually lets discuss this concept a bit. I'm basing my thoughts on these points..... 1) I do NOT want cloaks nerfed in any way. Contrary to the comment posted about me above, I DO use cloaks, but in exploration not 0.0 harrassment. 2) I don't care if they come up with a method of kicking AFK players, as long as it doesn't harm game-play for legitimate players 3) When someone logs in or logs out there is a moment in time that they can be probed. For login its about 45 seconds after you get the indication in Local. For logouts its about a minute before they "disappear". At least to my experience and comments from others. 4) Thje most common "beginning player" AFK ship is a Badger or other hauler fitted with a single miner1/2. This ship can fill its cargo hold with ore in about 1.5 hours and requires no interaction to do it. Hence 1.5 hours is the "baseline" for AFK detection. 5) Having a program push keys for you is a EULA violation Based on the above, I would recommend an AFK timer that detects keyboard strokes. If there is no interaction in 1.5 hours (chat windows, module activation, market, etc) it performs a disconnect, forcing the player into emergency warp and standard one minute logout. They can be probed in this time if you are positioned correctly. They ALSO disappear from local when this happens, letting you KNOW that they are shifting from normal to AFK mode. Known fact: When they log back in, they show up in local and are vulnerable to probing until they can re-activate their cloak module. Add a slight change to the module would prohibit it from being activated within 60 seconds of login, giving the chance to be able to be scanned/probed. This can give quick acting defenders the chance to find them. This keeps an AFK player from being AFK; they have to interacrt periodically. But it does keep the system from nerfing "legitimate" uses of the cloak and doesn't punish newer players that are still trying to get their first few millions of ISK. If you have a ship that is CONSTANTLY in local then: They are either usign a macro (petition them), are account sharing (petition them) or are taking a nap and waking up every hour to click a key (petition them anyways, the GMs will hopefully try to contact them in the middle of their nap and apply the ban stick when they don't respond; ie macro). In short I don't think that ACTIVE PLAYERS should get a nerf because the cloak is doing its job, but AFK players aren't "playing"; I don't care about them <-----------> Factional Warefare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
LORD IZE	Posted - 2007.05.19 21:35:00 - [15] Edited by: LORD IZE on 19/05/2007 21:41:53 This isn't a complaint against cloaks. IT is a complaint against AFK cloakers which is no different than using a macro to play the game when you are not at your comp. People who enter a system, cloak then leave their comp for an extended period of time( ie. > 30 minutes), simply as a means to harrass people actually in the system and playing the game is not right. IF macro users are doing something wrong by setting up side programs to play eve while they are not present at their computers than afk cloakers are soing the same thing by taking advantage of a flaw in the game mechanics. I also don't think active players need to get a nerf. A specialized three probe idea, first probe, detectes all cloaked in system, takes 30 minutes for scan results, allows warp to within 5 au, second probe takes 30 minutes, scan range 6 au, allows warp to within 1 au, third probe takes 10 seconds, scan range 1.5 au, allows warp to 0. This process would allow any active player to avoid detection with very little effort(simply can't sit at same spot for an hour) and would allow finding afk cloakers that have been away for an hour or more. These would be specialize probes that have to be used in sequence, each being a prerequisiste for use of the other. wouldn't take a lot for ccp to implement and shouldn't change the game for cloakers as they current are used except for allowing a means to find afk cloakers.
Angelus Xenotov	Posted - 2007.05.20 01:03:00 - [16] I mean, c'mon guys, use abit of that grey matter your mother gave you. Afk cloaked in a system is the same as docking in a station and going Afk. But, patently, if you're cloaked and afk, you're as bad as someone AUTOMATING MONEY MAKING OPERATIONS! Duh!
LORD IZE	Posted - 2007.05.20 04:45:00 - [17] Edited by: LORD IZE on 20/05/2007 04:44:08 Originally by: Angelus Xenotov Afk cloaked in a system is the same as docking in a station and going Afk. quote] No its not the same. Docking in station and going afk is no big deal and has no impact on the game except to annoy corpies from time to time
Awox Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.05.20 06:10:00 - [18] The only people who even care about AFK cloakers are macrominers and the like who want to be able to afk arkonor in "their 0.0 space" with a single BC/assaultfrig permatank to gang warp to the POS. Or morons who think NPCing should be easy. There is no other reliable way to catch an NPCer other than to terrorize him with a cloak, so please STFU. - BOOST OUTLAWS (-10.0 and proud of it)
Hittler's Borther	Posted - 2007.05.20 07:39:00 - [19] Ya i do agree that it make me mad to see afk cloakers we've spent hours trying to find em but no luck at all...Why not just add in a trigger for this problem... Triger/ if "in 0.0-0.4"+Triger/ "if cloaked" "while no imput" for "time 180s"=Task/ "log off" Simpe as that... I even use these parameter in my program and they show it works 100% no errors. PS: way different program too im sure of that though.
Cosmos Serendipity Unfinium Corp	Posted - 2007.05.20 08:08:00 - [20] Damn......so I guess the guys who have a family and have a sudden emergency like "Kid just broke his leg, gotta run to the hospital no time to warp to a station...hey cloak button!" deserves and really needs to have his ship found and destroyed? Not sure what the problem is if someone really needs to go afk for a little while and doesn't have time to dock.

Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.20 12:27:00 - [21] Edited by: Neuromandis on 20/05/2007 12:25:38 Originally by: Cosmos Serendipity Damn......so I guess the guys who have a family and have a sudden emergency like "Kid just broke his leg, gotta run to the hospital no time to warp to a station...hey cloak button!" deserves and really needs to have his ship found and destroyed? Not sure what the problem is if someone really needs to go afk for a little while and doesn't have time to dock. Nonsense. That's the worst defense of afk cloaking I have ever heard. I sincerely hope that someone whose kid has just broken it's leg is not very interested if he lost a billion or 50 in a ******* game, even one as well-desiged and immersing as EVE. Apart from that, what if he DOESN'T have a cloak? Maybe we should add an "invulnerability" button in case of family emergencies. Don't mix eve with RL in this way please, that's bad, bad, bad.
Angelus Xenotov	Posted - 2007.05.20 13:17:00 - [22] Originally by: LORD IZE Originally by: Angelus Xenotov Afk cloaked in a system is the same as docking in a station and going Afk. No its not the same. Docking in station and going afk is no big deal and has no impact on the game except to annoy corpies from time to time So...your argument against AFK cloakers and not afk docked people is 'Atleast I can camp their station, but I can't do that with afk cloakers?'
LORD IZE	Posted - 2007.05.20 13:53:00 - [23] No Angelus, my argument is people should not be able to "IMPACT" the game afk, like macro users do and afk cloakers do. People docked in a station are either in "their" system or at npc system and their location identifiable. Thus people know where they are. AFK cloakers that impact people negatively come to hostile system, cloak at ss, then leave for an extended period of time simple to harass people actually playing the game. That is BS and should not be allowed. All that I am seeking is to allow those playing the game the opportunity to "interact" with that specific player who is harassing me but not actively playing eve because they are gone and off doing something else. I also think that a method, such as the one I suggested, can be found that, 1) requires an effort on my part, and 2) Has no real impact on the way cloaks are used today(with this topics' subject being the one exception.).
Angelus Xenotov	Posted - 2007.05.20 14:20:00 - [24] Ugh, this is going to be one of those threads. What is the 'IMPACT(!)' of an AFK cloaker? What can someone, who is AFK and cloaked, do to you? I'll tell you what, nothing, that's right, NOTHING. The only 'IMPACT(!!)' an AFK cloaker has is psychological, there is no actual threat until the cloaker comes out of afk and either decides to attack or buggers off. That said, who decides if a cloaker has gone 'afk'? Do we get a probe that tells you that there is an afk cloaker in the system? (Then, oh look, a simple keystroke and I'm off the scan!) A probe that says there is a definitive cloaker in system who may or may not be afk? Oh wait: Quote: People docked in a station are either in "their" system or at npc system and their location identifiable IE. Campable. Case rested.
Cosmos Serendipity Unfinium Corp	Posted - 2007.05.20 15:02:00 - [25] Originally by: Neuromandis Edited by: Neuromandis on 20/05/2007 12:25:38 Originally by: Cosmos Serendipity Damn......so I guess the guys who have a family and have a sudden emergency like "Kid just broke his leg, gotta run to the hospital no time to warp to a station...hey cloak button!" deserves and really needs to have his ship found and destroyed? Not sure what the problem is if someone really needs to go afk for a little while and doesn't have time to dock. Nonsense. That's the worst defense of afk cloaking I have ever heard. I sincerely hope that someone whose kid has just broken it's leg is not very interested if he lost a billion or 50 in a ******* game, even one as well-desiged and immersing as EVE. Apart from that, what if he DOESN'T have a cloak? Maybe we should add an "invulnerability" button in case of family emergencies. Don't mix eve with RL in this way please, that's bad, bad, bad. We'll that would be one extreme, but not sure that someone should loose their ship even if they have to run off in a hurry and don't have time to log off. (Even if it's something as trivial as your wife walking in wearing nothing to get your attention) If you don't have a cloak and don't have time to dock, then you just log off. But still should be some sort of safty buffer for such situations.
Shaemell Buttleson Darwin With Attitude	Posted - 2007.05.20 15:39:00 - [26] Originally by: Cosmos Serendipity Damn......so I guess the guys who have a family and have a sudden emergency like "Kid just broke his leg, gotta run to the hospital no time to warp to a station...hey cloak button!" deserves and really needs to have his ship found and destroyed? Not sure what the problem is if someone really needs to go afk for a little while and doesn't have time to dock. Don't be a Tard. If that happened to me and I was sitting a Titan in a middle of an OP I'd log. There are some things in RL more important than a game with spaceships in it! Your signature was inappropriate, email [email protected] to find out why (don't forget to include a link to it) -Sahwoolo
Riddick Valer	Posted - 2007.05.20 16:02:00 - [27] As for the person that wanted cloaked people removed from local, NO. Of course, Covops cloakers should be removed. Thats the definition of covert ops.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Cadien Cybernetics	Posted - 2007.05.20 17:46:00 - [28] Originally by: Angelus Xenotov I mean, c'mon guys, use abit of that grey matter your mother gave you. Afk cloaked in a system is the same as docking in a station and going Afk. Uhm, no need to insult or troll, don't you think? Especially since that statement is wrong. - A player who has gone afk in a station can be located, as opposed to someone who's afk in system. - Most 0.0 systems don't have a station to begin with. As for the impact, you can't tell whether some char is afk or not. So in doubt you have to handle the situation as if that char is online and a possible threat. If that char is at a station, you can locate and monitor him - no more doubt. If he's in space you can't. The impact of a cloaker who has gone AFK in space is posing a possible threat without effort and without the possibility to verify it. What is being asked for is an instrument to do just that, tell apart AFK cloakers from active players. Tell apart threat from non threat. There's enough room to do that without hurting active players. Long scan times for example. An active player would merely have to change position every 30min or even more. I guess that's the least you could expect of a good scout. _________________________________ - People are people wherever you go -
PastaMadaFaka	Posted - 2007.05.20 18:30:00 - [29] lololz the more i read the more i laugh at it, cloaks are ingame for long time and now u guys decided to start whining about it now lol whats a cloak good for if the enemy can find u? cloaks are ok as it is if u got problems with peeps getting in ur system thats ur problem for letting them in
Tarron Sarek Gallente Cadien Cybernetics	Posted - 2007.05.21 00:15:00 - [30] Originally by: PastaMadaFaka lololz Don't know if it's just me but.. stopped reading here. Could you please at least try to be constructive? Yes? Thanks. _________________________________ - People are people wherever you go -



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