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Trustus
Dark-Rising
Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.05.30 11:17:00 -
[61]
I just wanna point out that cloak are intended for a few ships and therefore we should not be able to see cloak bs's or other ships like this.
Having people flying like cowards looking for an easy hauler to kill, or just sit afk in a hostile sysetm is not what this game is about.
/T
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Trovax
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.05.30 11:25:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Trovax on 30/05/2007 11:24:15
Who is the bigger coward?
The lone manti preying on haulers in 0.0, activly doing what a covops ship was designed for?
Or the uncloaked/cloaked gate camp also preying on haulers in 0.0? Not actually moving about, just sitting on the bubbled up gate waiting for kill mails, just for kicks. Sorry, but thats not what the game is about either.
"I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant" |
Neuromandis
Novastorm Inc
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.30 11:56:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Neuromandis on 30/05/2007 11:59:56
"What threat is an afk cloaker?"
An "afk" cloaker is gathering intel undisturbed behind enemy lines.
The "gathering intel" part is swell, that's what cloaks and covops are for.
The "undisturbed" part is not - gathering intel for use against someone is a hostile act and as such should be counterable. No matter if the whole eve community, devs icluded, comes and shouts otherwise till they're blue in the face, gathering intel against someone is still a hostile act. (Added for emphasis only: as an example, wartime spies are executed, not even imprisoned. It's THAT hostile to spy on womeone)
Someone that believes that a 23/7 cloaker (afk or not) is no threat is simply naive, and if balance and tactics should be served, and that's the part that is under question, all hostile acts should be in some way counterable. That a covops job is to gather intel does not mean that no-one should be able to stop it. It is like saying that because the Hulk's job is to mine it should be immune to ganking while mining. Or that because the Mega's job is to gank people, it should be invulnerable when it actvates its guns. In short, it's a load of crap.
Now, as far as force recons go - these fellas do what covops do, only a little slower, and with a little punch and a lot of EW to add a few killmails on top. The problem with these fellas is that being unprobeable and unscannable even while mobile, they can 100% dictate their fights. They don't even have to run away if thing's don't go as planned (as an interceptor, the other ship that dictates fights, has to do). They are the one ship that has the most might (firepower, EW capabilities, high speed, high warp speed) in a combination with the ability to 100% dictate their fights. Other ships can dictate fights as well (interceptors and covops) but don't pack its punch. Other ships pack a lot more firepower and/or defense (combat recons, battleships), but they cannot 100% dictate fights and scout.
This makes them imbalanced even if they cannot beat every other ship 1 vs 1 - basically they are an I-win button any way you look at it. Gathering a gang against them only removes you from the target list - it does not even increase the risk factor for the recon.
That's your problems with cloaking in a nutshell, and why it should be possible to probe down anyone and everyone, with varying degrees of difficulty taking into consideration their role.
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Trustus
Dark-Rising
Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.05.30 12:23:00 -
[64]
Iam not saying they should remove cloakers, what i say they should stop is for other ships not intended to cloak to actually cloak.
If you wanna cloak get your self a cov ops/reacon and do what ever you like.
Having cloacking bs/bc or other ships is not how this have is supposed to be played.
/T
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Galack Fyar
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Posted - 2007.05.30 15:53:00 -
[65]
 Originally by: Neuromandis
Edited by: Neuromandis on 30/05/2007 11:59:56
"What threat is an afk cloaker?"
An "afk" cloaker is gathering intel undisturbed behind enemy lines.
Tell me, how exactly does somebody gather intel while afk? Does their ship computer shout things at them from the other side of their house?
The only way somebody in system cloaked can be a threat is if they are AT the computer.
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Neuromandis
Novastorm Inc
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.30 21:16:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Galack Fyar
Tell me, how exactly does somebody gather intel while afk? Does their ship computer shout things at them from the other side of their house?
The only way somebody in system cloaked can be a threat is if they are AT the computer.
Originally by: Galack Fyar
Originally by: Neuromandis
Edited by: Neuromandis on 30/05/2007 11:59:56
"What threat is an afk cloaker?"
An "afk" cloaker is gathering intel undisturbed behind enemy lines.
Tell me, how exactly does somebody gather intel while afk? Does their ship computer shout things at them from the other side of their house?
The only way somebody in system cloaked can be a threat is if they are AT the computer.
Really, does that need an answer? That was the quotes for... That I am not speaking about a guy that has gone for coffee.
Also, afk is not a permanent state of being. You can go to your computer, leave it and return. Your screen does still display stuff. Your keyboard is not even needed if you just need people's names and numbers from local, or when a specific guy undocks and where he went.
In any case, when I say "afk" cloakers, and not afk cloakers without the quotes, I mean exactly what I outlined in my post: people that just sit there motionless gathering intel for long amounts of time. When they are really afk or not is irrelevant. Because their job usually does not require them do do anything but watch. It's not like you can see if the guy actually moves to determine if he's afk, and it's not the problem I outlined anyway.
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LORD IZE
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Posted - 2007.05.31 02:00:00 -
[67]
AFK cloaking is akin to macro mining. Its a way to play eve while not at your computer. It really doesnt' matter IF you can't understand how afk cloaking can be used to advantage and i'm not gonna explain that to you here so you and anyone else not in the know can go try it. What I hope to convey is that playing eve, through means other than direct input into the game is something less than desireable and thus should be eliminated. I hope ccp, when it finally takes action, just gives us the tools to seek out the afk cloaker and kill him. For those cloakers not afk but actively playing I hope their cloaks continue to offer them the protection they offer today. |
Trovax
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.05.31 08:58:00 -
[68]
OK. Firstly Cloaking afk is NOTHING like macro mining. Macro mining involves setting up a piece of out of game code to make your miners/haulers do all the work while your not there which results in a profit. It is an OUT OF GAME piece of code and is not availible IN GAME for obvious reason and is therethere fore deemed to be CHEATING. And not allowed.
Cloaking IS! Somthing that is availible to all in game. CCP made it that way. And if CCP made it availible then it cant be deemed as cheating. Cheating would be finding a way of firing while cloaked, know as a bug or 'exploit'.
AFK cloaking gains no advantage at all. Sure you might get the odd o/ in local but what intel does that provide? That someone flew thru the system? That same intel can be gathered in a shuttle sitting in an SS. Most people setup and use private channels, some others dont type at all and make it a requirement that everyone must use TeamSpeak/Ventrillo. And unlike Macro Miners, they do not make any isk at the end of each session. They cant fight solo either and we all know why. For those that dont, its basically because they wont last 2 seconds solo.
Now im all for a system and/or module for Hunting out cloaked ships. Someone even came up with a great idea here. But not for one to just nerf the cloak so that those that want to hunt cloaked ships dont have to sacrifice weaponry. How is that fair? Someone whos spent the time training for covert ops (and it does take a while) should happily sit back and watch all his hard work just explode after 2 shots from a sniperthron? Me thinks not. If you want to be able to hunt cloaked ships you should have a specific hunter Killer skill/module/or even ship. And if you dont want to fit the module, or train for the ship, find a friend that does and work as a team to hunt out cloaked vessels, instead of all trying to train everything. Choose a role and stick to it. I started training CovertOps from day one. Because thats what i knew i wanted to play before the game had even finnished installing. You i can tell you now, i've done some nice work for alliances in the past, collecting intellignce. And i can tell you that i made alot more isk than those silly gate campers. In fact i even flew thru several and laughed once i was thru. I'm not the best, but it is a challenge. One i enjoy. And i have lost some too. For example i've been 3000m from a Domi while trying to get to a gate, only i wasnt expecting him to release his dronage and i got WTFPWN'd. Unlucky.
(if you read this all the way thru put a  at the end of your reply)
Now lets put this NERF cloaks thing into real life scenario.
I did 7 years in the Armed Forces, came out just under a year ago. We did on occaision do some surveillance operations. Now if this nerf scenario was to be implemented in real life, what your all saying is that after 2 or 3 hours of being in the harbour area, a big fat arrow should appear above my head saying 'HERE HE IS'. So that you can all just sit and wait until the arrow appears (I.E. pops up on scanner) and not actually have to use your eyes and equipment to hunt the spy down. Because thats basically what your all askin.
Anyways, back to scanning this POS i found....
"I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant" |
Neuromandis
Novastorm Inc
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.31 20:43:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Trovax
Now im all for a system and/or module for Hunting out cloaked ships. Someone even came up with a great idea here. But not for one to just nerf the cloak so that those that want to hunt cloaked ships dont have to sacrifice weaponry. How is that fair? Someone whos spent the time training for covert ops (and it does take a while) should happily sit back and watch all his hard work just explode after 2 shots from a sniperthron? Me thinks not. If you want to be able to hunt cloaked ships you should have a specific hunter Killer skill/module/or even ship. And if you dont want to fit the module, or train for the ship, find a friend that does and work as a team to hunt out cloaked vessels, instead of all trying to train everything. Choose a role and stick to it.
Basically, what is on the verge of happening (cloaks being probeable, check the test server) seems to exactly describe what you suggest - i.e. people with specialized ships (covops and generally probeing ships) and equipment (probe launchers) and skills (4 expensive skills for probing plus the relevant ship skills), and sacrificing weapons for it, will be able to hunt you down.
:o
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PastaMadaFaka
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Posted - 2007.06.01 00:57:00 -
[70]
u guys make me laugh alot everyday i see at least 2 new topics about cloaks nobody gives a dam to read the forum they just drop in what they have in mind and that is pure whining on most of the topics yes u "whiners"
as for cloaks dam i dont know how many times i have said this and others also but here goes again do u guys know how many weapons a cov ops got onboard if hes on spy duty?
2 light launchers is that enough to kill anything in 0.0? i guess not unless u are a complete tard and are flying an ibis and i think u can still outrun it lol
now the best part what about a cov ops that its being used for exploration?
1 light launcher cuz the other 2 slots will be full with a cloak and a probe launcher now what dmg does that make loool
and last but not least what about theyr armor/shields basicly any combat ship can pop it easy
if u guys want any nerf or mods to kill cloak users do that on peeps that use the other cloaks not cov ops stuff or most will drop exploration
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Camilo Cienfuegos
Caldari
EP0CH
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Posted - 2007.06.01 01:58:00 -
[71]
Quote:
Nor can they hurt you. If you are "afraid" of a cloaked ship in your 0.0 space or something like that do what you tell all of us Carebears in Empire to do: Don't fly afk and bring a friend for cover. I have zero sympathy for whining about not being able to do something because "we don't know where they are" or any such BS.
The problem doesn't lie in not knowing where they are - the paranoia brought about by having cloaked hostiles in system is something that is priceless in my opinion, and second only to the palputations brought about whilst tanking right on the brink in combat. The problem is people coming into system, activating the cloak and leaving the computer idle.
If the cloaker actually stayed at the keyboard and picked off targets now and again I wouldn't mind. Here though, we're discussing completely AFK cloaking. The simple solution is the same one as rats whilst mining: require a recalibration of the cloak after a pseudo-random interval, modified by your skills. Like mining, you might be able to go afk and idle for over an hour with nothing happenening, or your cloak could require recalibration twice in as many minutes. Like the people you hunt, you never know when you might become exposed...
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Camilo Cienfuegos
Caldari
EP0CH
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Posted - 2007.06.01 01:59:00 -
[72]
Quote:
as for cloaks dam i dont know how many times i have said this and others also but here goes again do u guys know how many weapons a cov ops got onboard if hes on spy duty?
If a recon pilot times it right, he can make mincemeat of an NPCer as he engages a triple battleship spawn - and even a covert ops frigate could tear a barge apart.
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Trovax
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.06.01 15:17:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
Quote:
as for cloaks dam i dont know how many times i have said this and others also but here goes again do u guys know how many weapons a cov ops got onboard if hes on spy duty?
If a recon pilot times it right, he can make mincemeat of an NPCer as he engages a triple battleship spawn - and even a covert ops frigate could tear a barge apart.
The way youve 'said' the above makes it sound like its a 2 seconds job. If it is please explain how, because i fly a manti with 3 cruise launchers, a strike range of 212km, and avg dmg per cruise missile approx 600/missile....and it takes me a good 3 or 4 minutes per BS. In fact, on a 3 BS (drone) spawn, i kill one and move on to the second. Half way thru the second the first has re-spawned.
If i had seven cruise launchers like the drake (hmm now theres a nice thought), then yeah. Bombers cant do that much dmg to a BS solo, and have been designed to work in teams or 'squadrons'. 5 x manti for example = 15 launchers. Enough to take down any BS nice ans fast. But solo........i dont think so.
"I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant" |
Camilo Cienfuegos
Caldari
EP0CH
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Posted - 2007.06.01 16:11:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Trovax
The way youve 'said' the above makes it sound like its a 2 seconds job. If it is please explain how, because i fly a manti with 3 cruise launchers, a strike range of 212km, and avg dmg per cruise missile approx 600/missile....and it takes me a good 3 or 4 minutes per BS. In fact, on a 3 BS (drone) spawn, i kill one and move on to the second. Half way thru the second the first has re-spawned.
I'm not talking about Stealth Bombers.
I'm not talking about killing NPCs.
I'm talking about Recon Cruisers.
I'm talking about PVP.
I'm talking about execution of those who do item 2 by those in item 3.
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PastaMadaFaka
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Posted - 2007.06.01 19:22:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
Originally by: Trovax
The way youve 'said' the above makes it sound like its a 2 seconds job. If it is please explain how, because i fly a manti with 3 cruise launchers, a strike range of 212km, and avg dmg per cruise missile approx 600/missile....and it takes me a good 3 or 4 minutes per BS. In fact, on a 3 BS (drone) spawn, i kill one and move on to the second. Half way thru the second the first has re-spawned.
I'm not talking about Stealth Bombers.
I'm not talking about killing NPCs.
I'm talking about Recon Cruisers.
I'm talking about PVP.
I'm talking about execution of those who do item 2 by those in item 3.
dont go solo mining in a barge then :P
also if u rat for a living u better off with a wing man and if u cant get a wing to go with u why dont ur ally protect ur own space better?
also recon ships dont have much tank
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Sir Zippy
Black Lotus Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.01 21:08:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Azirapheal
heres an idea for you.
cloaking modules may not be fitted on a battlecruiser/battleship/capital
Agreed.
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Camilo Cienfuegos
Caldari
EP0CH
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Posted - 2007.06.01 23:30:00 -
[77]
Originally by: PastaMadaFaka
dont go solo mining in a barge then :P
also if u rat for a living u better off with a wing man and if u cant get a wing to go with u why dont ur ally protect ur own space better?
also recon ships dont have much tank
Either my communication skills are appalling today, everyone else has suddenly become much more dense than normal, or this is some kind of sick joke...
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Sun Crusher
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Posted - 2007.06.03 20:51:00 -
[78]
i don't see any point in changing how cloak works right now
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LORD IZE
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Posted - 2007.06.10 21:01:00 -
[79]
Edited by: LORD IZE on 10/06/2007 21:00:43
The point of this thread isn't to change cloaks. Its exactly the OPPISITE. Not to change cloaks but also come up with a method of finding afk cloakers. |
Breathing
Mork Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.06.10 21:29:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Breathing on 10/06/2007 21:33:18
I love cloaks. I use them frequently. AFK? Go for it. Gate recon for 5 or 6 hours, while untouchable? Fine. Do it. Its a niche and its a good part of the game.
My frustration, and what I want to see changed, is that currently a cloaker can sit in a system using a cloak for an unlimited amount of time, WEEKS (Ive seen it happen) from DT to DT, permentantly untouchable. Im not complaining about hours. Im complaining about days.
It just doesnt quite sit right that someone can leave a character running a cloaking module in a system for an infinite amount of time, with no need to dock, no need to refuel, no need for any support... for days on end.
Im not a carebear complaining about threats in local. Cloaked ships should not be able to be found, I agree. And I use cloaks for exactly the same reasons the other pro-cloakers in this thread do. But I just think there should be some limit put in to place somehow, to stop a cloaked ship being able to cloak from DT to DT for days on end with no need to dock, re-fuel, or otherwise require support.
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aaron 619
Gallente
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.10 22:56:00 -
[81]
Wow, that was a wast of time, Cloaks will not be changed, If you don't like it, Just drop off your stuff in jita for me and quit, Thanks
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Lord Xavius
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Posted - 2007.06.11 05:32:00 -
[82]
Cloaks are fine, they have been for years (except that little mistake they made way back with them but luckily fixed it within days).
Now, if you could find a cloaked ship it would totally kill the whole idea of cloaking and covert ops which would be incredibely stupid...
Now for non-covert cloaks, the penalties are quite harsh and is enough to balance it out.
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BigWhale
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.11 07:19:00 -
[83]
Originally by: PastaMadaFaka
ur speed if a cloaked bs uncloaks in ur mining belt u got 15 seconds to warp out
You obviously never tried to warp out in a hulk. :)
--
R, U, Y are letters...
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LORD IZE
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Posted - 2007.06.11 13:06:00 -
[84]
People having an impact on the game while they leave their computer idle and are off doing something else will never be fine. AFK cloakers need to go. Its cheating, period. |
Lord Xavius
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Posted - 2007.06.11 23:00:00 -
[85]
Originally by: LORD IZE
People having an impact on the game while they leave their computer idle and are off doing something else will never be fine. AFK cloakers need to go. Its cheating, period.
In what way is it cheating, that's just ridiculous.
It's called cloaking, not cheating.
And maybe they aren't AFK maybe they are hunting you, that's the beauty of the device.
Also being AFK and cloaked is a really efficient way to run psychologic warfare, now this is the thing that bothers the miners and 0.0 ratters but ya someone said you had 15sec to warp out, not quite but almost and should be enough if you aren't AFK yourself.
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LORD IZE
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Posted - 2007.06.16 15:37:00 -
[86]
its cheating and needs to be fixed. |
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