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Drizit
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.05.21 10:02:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Originally by: PastaMadaFaka
lololz
Don't know if it's just me but.. stopped reading here.
Could you please at least try to be constructive? Yes? Thanks.
I believe it was pretty constructive since it re-iterated what has been said time and time again about cloaks.
Quote:
whats a cloak good for if the enemy can find u?
And also the point:
Quote:
cloaks are ok as it is if u got problems with peeps getting in ur system thats ur problem for letting them in
In addition, both points I agree to.
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Cosmos Serendipity
Unfinium Corp
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Posted - 2007.05.21 12:00:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Cosmos Serendipity on 21/05/2007 12:07:19
I guess the easiest way to fix this without compromising the cloak or forcing everyone offline each time they turn their back for a few minutes is to set an idle status bar that shows up next to a persons name in local.
My main point here is that there is sometimes legitimate reasons for someone to be afk without intending to grief someone.
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.21 13:24:00 -
[33]
1. thing: I have never used a cloak (but I know the stats and mechanics). I have never used probes.
let's flame :-]]
Let's make cloaks imperfect. They are generaly hidden in the background noise of the systems own radiation (stars etc) and when they are moving, they are impossible to trace.
Once they stand still, they produce a pattern in the noise background of the system. The longer they stand still, the more the pattern shows an probes can gradualy start picking them up. Now to make this complicated, simple thrusters movement is not enough to hide your signature. You need to warp.
This means an active cloaker is safe, he usualy travels around the system (or has to to avoid detection). An AFK cloaker will be gradualy visible to probes after some time.
Now if we add precision to probes, the ones with lowest range are most accurate, so they can pick up the signature early, observators take time for the signature to grow.
Originally by: JP Beauregard
The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls.... 
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.21 13:46:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
You need to warp.
This is directly against how cloaks work in all SciFi literature (and logic). It is easier to emulate the background if you are sitting still, the power emitted from a warp jump is much harder to hide.
Besides, only the Covert Ops cloak on a Covert Ops or Recon ship allows you to warp while cloaked, all other cloaks/ships require you to de-cloak to warp.
It would effectively destroy cloaks if you HAD to warp to stay hidden.
<----------->
Factional Warefare:
The LowSec wars which never happened. |
Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Cadien Cybernetics
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Posted - 2007.05.21 16:29:00 -
[35]
Quote:
whats a cloak good for if the enemy can find u?
Ask the Romulans and Klingons 
Ok now, seriously. A cloaking device is good for not being seen or detected at a glance.
It's good for raiding. It's good for surprise attacks and traveling unseen.
But it should not be good for staying undetectable even under thorough scanning and probing.
All cloaking devices I can remember had some flaws and were detectable in some way or another. I think that's for a reason, because otherwise the concept is a bit overpowered.
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- People are people wherever you go - |
PastaMadaFaka
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Posted - 2007.05.21 16:47:00 -
[36]
Edited by: PastaMadaFaka on 21/05/2007 16:49:05
Originally by: Drizit
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Originally by: PastaMadaFaka
lololz
Don't know if it's just me but.. stopped reading here.
Could you please at least try to be constructive? Yes? Thanks.
I believe it was pretty constructive since it re-iterated what has been said time and time again about cloaks.
Quote:
whats a cloak good for if the enemy can find u?
And also the point:
Quote:
cloaks are ok as it is if u got problems with peeps getting in ur system thats ur problem for letting them in
In addition, both points I agree to.
u said it all :P
"almost forgot if they change cloaks the way u peeps want u just gona kill 0.0 exploration"
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Cadien Cybernetics
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Posted - 2007.05.21 16:59:00 -
[37]
Originally by: PastaMadaFaka
"almost forgot if they change cloaks the way u peeps want u just gona kill 0.0 exploration"
Why?
Would you care to elaborate?
Let's say scanning would take a minimum of 1 hour, just to give you something to work with and to get you started.
_________________________________
- People are people wherever you go - |
PastaMadaFaka
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Posted - 2007.05.21 17:02:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Originally by: PastaMadaFaka
"almost forgot if they change cloaks the way u peeps want u just gona kill 0.0 exploration"
Why?
Would you care to elaborate?
Let's say scanning would take a minimum of 1 hour, just to give you something to work with and to get you started.
try to do some then some sites are hard to find sometimes it takes more 1h just to get the first sig of it not to mention sometimes u have to do alot of warping arround just to place ur probes right by the time i had the site i would be probed down and killed
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.21 18:34:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Ask the Romulans and Klingons
And I quote out of the original Star Trek Klingon Ship Recognition Manual:
"Of the 81 K22Bs built, one has been captured by the Federation, one has been destroyed, and the other 79 are believed to be in active service, their where-abouts unknown".
Notice how almost all the cloaked ships that the Romulans or Klingons lost were due to stupidity...
<----------->
Factional Warfare:
The LowSec wars which never happened. |
PastaMadaFaka
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Posted - 2007.05.21 20:32:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Ask the Romulans and Klingons
And I quote out of the original Star Trek Klingon Ship Recognition Manual:
"Of the 81 K22Bs built, one has been captured by the Federation, one has been destroyed, and the other 79 are believed to be in active service, their where-abouts unknown".
Notice how almost all the cloaked ships that the Romulans or Klingons lost were due to stupidity...
nice one :P
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Ramashek
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Posted - 2007.05.22 13:53:00 -
[41]
Just a random post onto this, but what about removing cloaked people from local entirely? (although they will appear there to non locals, just not able to see the uncloaked populus) with like a 10 minutes of not being allowed back in when uncloaking... they still have their directional scanner to find people...
the cloaked person will not lose out, as they can't be found all the same, and the residents will be happy as they can't be spied on so efficiently...
and then maybe a passive pulse scanner from a gate in a system you have sovereinity of, kind of like radar, it will pulse out for 500km or whatever every 10 seconds, giving like a blip, then the cloaked player isnt revealed, but will atleast have to move about to maintain any ability to not be found...
*prepares for the ideas to be shot down all the same*
the problem with probes would be, how do u determine someone is afk? cus they havent moved in 30mins? or if they havent changed direction? what if they're orbitting something while cloaked? it's just a huge problem stopping them going afk, but not messin it up for cloakers who aren't afk :| maybe it will be cleared up with rev 2.0? they might give pos scanning stations that negate a cloaked ships advantage?
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PastaMadaFaka
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Posted - 2007.05.22 15:58:00 -
[42]
do u know what a cov ops ship is? its a flying cloak very easy to shoot down if u add those said probes nobody will use them anymore basicly cloaks and cov ops ships die cuz nobody will want to risk them since they cant tank anything... btw try to read the other posts :P
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LORD IZE
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Posted - 2007.05.25 04:34:00 -
[43]
Lets stick to topic, ALL i have asked is that something being added to the game to detect AFK cloakers. NOT active cloakers. The deference would be defined as time away from your comp. One possible method is the one I suggested that would require at least an HOUR to locate a cloaker in your systems and the cloaker has to be relatively stationary(with the exception of moving in while cloaked but not warping).
What is your real objection to allowing detection of someone that has logged on and left his char in space cloaked simply to harrass active players? |
MotherMoon
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Posted - 2007.05.25 04:37:00 -
[44]
sry but this being made into the ulimate sci-fi game ever.
and even somelike me who knows just a bit of sci-fi knownledge knows that if it's cloaked, and not moving, you can't find it.
no w if it was moving it would be giving something off.
it's like being in a sub underwater with everything off.
impossable to find unless sonar picks up noise form a crew member.
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Neuromandis
Novastorm Inc
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.25 12:03:00 -
[45]
Originally by: MotherMoon
impossable to find unless sonar picks up noise form a crew member.
You said it all.
Impossible -> *unless*
Add this *unless* to cloaking (there isn't an "unless" now) and you have your analogy.
As for the exploration part above:
If it took 1 hour of you STANDING STILL to be probed, you would be safe. Even if it took you 4 hours to find that damned radar signature, it is not so much of a trouble to warp every hour or so is it? In fact you would NEED to to replace your probes. You're safe...
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Trovax
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.05.25 12:35:00 -
[46]
OMG!!! NOT ANOTHER NERF CLOAKS POST!!!
A cloak is for hiding, covert ops, espionage, and a few other things too.
This means staying invisible for long periods of time. As ive mentioned in other posts, sometimes i spend hours just sitting within visible range of a gate not talking to anyone, takking notes.
Surveillance does not require....
Interaction with other players
Talking in local, or any other channel
Running risks (the very reason you get a cloak is to reduce the risk while in enemy territory, by not being spotted.
Just because you cant find them dosent mean the are afk
Just becasue they declined your chat dosent mean they are afk
Just because you cant see them dosent mean they are afk
Just because you cant shoot them dosnet mean they are afk
Just because they are not talking in local dosent mean they are afk, or even in a cloaked vessel. In fact it might not even have a cloak on it. They might just be in a buzzard with loads of jammers fitted...and no cloak.
The only reason peeps what cloaks nerfed is so they can sit waiting for a ship to run out of cloak, knowing it cant warp until it uncloaks, with the exception of the Buzzard and counterparts from other races. So they can pop it and maybe get the cloak device as loot, because we all know how expensive they are and what they are worth.
A cloaker gains no advantage if he goes AFK cloaked. And the pathetic excuses most of you nerfers are commin up with are total B*****KS!!!
A cloaker cant.....
Fire when cloaked
Target when cloaked
Scan your cargo when cloaked
Scan your ship when cloaked
So you are actually safer while they are cloaked than when they are not. I doubt any solo Bomber pilot would attack anyone unless he had backup, and if he does have backup, chances are he isnt afk, and that hes actually acting a spotter for his corp.
If your in a low sec where a COVOPS pilot can freely shoot you, then you should be watchin your back anyways.
There is no difference in a cloaker being afk and a docked hauler being afk.
Most peeps that play also have a real life too, and sometime they may be required to go afk, to, for example, put the kids to bed, the wife/gf/bf/husband want a hug, dinner time, unexpected guest that stayed longer than s/he thought and in talking to the guest forgot all about eve being online, or maybe even the dog is on fire and had to be rushed to the vet's. IMHO rl takes precendence.
The "IDK if he is afk or not" is the worst of them all. It holds no relevance in the argument. How do you know that half of Jita arnt afk?? Im sure at least 25% of them are. And none of them use cloaks (i dont think).
To sum it up, those of you trying to nerf cloaks just want to be able to get a good kill thats gonna drop potentially good loot, with the minimus of effort and resistance because the pilot is unable to defend him/her self, and maximum profit.
I think you nerfers selfish, lazy and greedy. Get a grip.
Out of all the posts about this subject, i have yet to see a single LEGIT argument about the cloak........ maybe one day someone will come up with somthing. but i doubt it.
"I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant" |
Major Stallion
The Dark Horses
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.25 12:47:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Cosmos Serendipity
Damn......so I guess the guys who have a family and have a sudden emergency like "Kid just broke his leg, gotta run to the hospital no time to warp to a station...hey cloak button!" deserves and really needs to have his ship found and destroyed?
Not sure what the problem is if someone really needs to go afk for a little while and doesn't have time to dock. 
ctrl+q...if you feel the need to say "OMG I CANT LOG OUT OF EVE" then theres a serious problem
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Cosmos Serendipity
Unfinium Corp
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Posted - 2007.05.26 02:24:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Major Stallion
Originally by: Cosmos Serendipity
Damn......so I guess the guys who have a family and have a sudden emergency like "Kid just broke his leg, gotta run to the hospital no time to warp to a station...hey cloak button!" deserves and really needs to have his ship found and destroyed?
Not sure what the problem is if someone really needs to go afk for a little while and doesn't have time to dock.
ctrl+q...if you feel the need to say "OMG I CANT LOG OUT OF EVE" then theres a serious problem
Almost forgot about this thread.....
When your afk, your not actually playing the game....playing the game while afk would require the use of a macro, which is against the rules. Just floating lifelessly in space is not (Attack someone who's afk at a gate in empire then petition CCP when you loose your ship just to test it out.)
IMO it doesn't matter if your in space or in station when afk, if one is against the rules the other should be too, but CCP realizes that at least a large majority of people playing eve has a rl and not all are just a bunch of zombies sitting in front of a monitor all day.
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Trustus
Dark-Rising
Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.05.26 12:06:00 -
[49]
Afk cloakers must be removed some how, or at least give the players some kind of penalty of being cloaked longer period of time.
so that we can get a change to find them and kill them.
/T
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Futher Bezluden
Minmatar
The Suicide Kings
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2007.05.26 12:24:00 -
[50]
With all the talk of HEAT, why not risk damage to your cloak for extended periods of cloaking.
People want cloak fuel, but it'll just end up making all the covert-ops fliers fit cargo expanders so they can cloak for 5-6 hours in system bugging the hell out of players.
10 minutes cloaked and then there is a risk of damage unless the cloak (ANY CLOAK) is deactivated for a certain time period modified by your skill level of cloaking. Maybe a cooling down period is required and you can't activate the cloak.
just an idea
THUKKER -Be Paranoid
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.26 17:46:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Futher Bezluden
With all the talk of HEAT, why not risk damage to your cloak for extended periods of cloaking.
People want cloak fuel, but it'll just end up making all the covert-ops fliers fit cargo expanders so they can cloak for 5-6 hours in system bugging the hell out of players.
10 minutes cloaked and then there is a risk of damage unless the cloak (ANY CLOAK) is deactivated for a certain time period modified by your skill level of cloaking. Maybe a cooling down period is required and you can't activate the cloak.
just an idea
And you just nerfed exploration.
Exploration in LowSec or 0.0 takes sometimes HOURS to scan sites down, during which time you are sitting still, can't warp until the scan completes, etc.
Remove cloaks from the equation every 10 minutes and you just made explorers sitting ducks.
The problem IS NOT CLOAKS. They should not be nerfed. The problem is AFK players, and if they are AFK they cannot hurt you.
Most of the "nerf cloak" threads are people whining that they might be attacked and can't solo rat/mine in 0.0 space. I swear most 0.0 alliances/Corps are more carebear than us dedicated Empir e Dwellers.
<----------->
Factional Warfare:
The LowSec wars which never happened. |
PastaMadaFaka
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Posted - 2007.05.26 18:00:00 -
[52]
do u guys know what weapons a buzzard can fit? it would be 2 light launchers now what dmg does that do thats like getting hit by a rat belt in 0.0 not to mention that like i said above that thing is a flying cloak a merlin tanks better than a buzzard :P
no fuel cuz theyr cargo is barely enough for our probes
no dmg cuz cloaks are a bit expensive and when im probing sometimes it takes a couple hours to get something in the scanner
if u dont like cov ops pilots start protecting ur own space better
if a bs shows up in ur space and cloaks and pops a barge from time to time thats also ur problem for mining alone in 0.0
guys cloaks are fine they got enough penalties as it is
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LORD IZE
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Posted - 2007.05.29 04:49:00 -
[53]
Well it looks like cloaks are gettng nerfed next patch and it will probably be a nerf instead of something reasonable that just allows players to detect the afk cloaker. too bad more people didnt' support working to end the afk cloaker, now all will suffer. |
Neuromandis
Novastorm Inc
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.29 09:54:00 -
[54]
Originally by: LORD IZE
Well it looks like cloaks are gettng nerfed next patch and it will probably be a nerf instead of something reasonable that just allows players to detect the afk cloaker. too bad more people didnt' support working to end the afk cloaker, now all will suffer.
I don't know where you're coming from. I am a coverts pilot and sure as hell this isn't gonna nerf me at all.
If they implemented something that DECLOAKS me so I cannot bust gatecamps and gather intel, then we would be talking about the permanent parking of the buzzard. Now? I'll just be probing people more, cause I know a cloak itself isn't gonna save them, and they'll actually need some skill to escape.
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Draec Sjet
Dark Knights of Deneb
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Posted - 2007.05.29 10:53:00 -
[55]
afk cloaking only happens with ships that are not designed to have a cloak. the usual culprits are battleships.
but please, think about this. they can't move anywhere fast cloaked, they can't warp, they can't fire or anything, and the moment the y decloak, they're going to be visible on scanner.
taking viewable standings away from local does nothing
taking cloakers entirely out of local is the worst idea i have ever heard
it's a tactic people can use when using cloaks, just deal with it. if yo have an afk cloaker in your mining system, instead of wasting time on here trolling about it; think about how you could disuade them; protect your miners with ships of your own!
this game is brilliant in that there are so many different things you can do, so stop whinging and start playing this beautifully diverse game that is eve!
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Sargeant HAmmer
Caldari
Hammers Academy
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Posted - 2007.05.29 11:41:00 -
[56]
so tell me something here
if i was to be watching a station without interacting with my ship to monitor people passing through, lets say in low sec (which face it, is as dangerous as 0.0) and i'm after a guy but im looking to find out what he flies, what do i do? i dont want him seeing me spying on him.
i could be sat there for 40 mins watching. i dont want to be kicked off at a vital moment as they undock do i now?
how can you determine if someone is afk in a cloak?
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Azirapheal
Amarr
Ore Mongers
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.05.29 16:31:00 -
[57]
1. im active on the old espionage front - and am very happy sitting for hours watching and spotting.
what appears to be the issue is johnny risk free 00
the raven, ratting out in 00.
that warps to SS and cloaks untill local is clear again.
this isnt RISK v Reward - and even a well organised gang will struggle to find him in time in a system with plenty of belts, and of course once hes out of warp in his SS he hits cloak and becomes immune to probing.
heres an idea for you.
cloaking modules may not be fitted on a battlecruiser/battleship/capital
reason : cloaking technology is imprecise and intensive, leading to severe field instability when attempting to cloak an overly large ship.
OR - scientists have been unable to create a cloaking device which can create a stable field large enough to cover a battleship
Azi
Hango touched me in the night! I also stole all of your socks. |
Yamichi Wiggin
Caldari
Rising Knights
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.29 16:38:00 -
[58]
I can't find the link but one of the devs stated in the forums recently that in Kali there will be scan probes that can find cloaked ships. I imagine it will take a great deal of time. It's exactly what we wanted. If you are playing the game, you're safe. Who sits still for 4 hours in hostile space anyway? If you're watching a gate, it's pretty easy to orbit the gate at 100km or warp around the gate without losing any LOS or info. People who play the game won't even be bothered by this. People who log an alt into a hostile system then go to work or to play EQ or something just to make the locals skittish will have to find a new hobby.
People who play don't get hurt. People who don't play... keep not playing?
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Pain is weakness leaving the body.
There is no love in fear |
Trovax
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.05.29 16:49:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Trovax on 29/05/2007 16:49:42
Edited by: Trovax on 29/05/2007 16:48:29
Originally by: Azirapheal
1. im active on the old espionage front - and am very happy sitting for hours watching and spotting.
what appears to be the issue is johnny risk free 00
the raven, ratting out in 00.
that warps to SS and cloaks untill local is clear again.
this isnt RISK v Reward - and even a well organised gang will struggle to find him in time in a system with plenty of belts, and of course once hes out of warp in his SS he hits cloak and becomes immune to probing.
heres an idea for you.
cloaking modules may not be fitted on a battlecruiser/battleship/capital
reason : cloaking technology is imprecise and intensive, leading to severe field instability when attempting to cloak an overly large ship.
OR - scientists have been unable to create a cloaking device which can create a stable field large enough to cover a battleship
Azi
So the player that has been playing for say 3 years and dosent want to get involved in PVP and just wants to play the content of the game, IE ratting and missions, is to be penalized because PVP'rs cant force him into PVP??
And before anyone says 'stick to Empire' what if he dosent want to. What if he wants to get a carrier next, or a titan? And the best way for HIM/HER in relation to their skills is to go kill 0.0 rats?
"I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant" |
Futher Bezluden
Minmatar
The Suicide Kings
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2007.05.29 21:34:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Futher Bezluden on 29/05/2007 21:47:16
Edited by: Futher Bezluden on 29/05/2007 21:44:45
Why not just require a certain amount of cap per x amount of time for cloaking devices? The greater your sensor strength, target range, shield levels, armor amounts, your MASS, propulsion strength, warp core strength, cap recharge rate, shield recharge rate the greater energy consumed per cycle. Many things can contribute.
Cloaking Devices on Capitals... if you fit one, it should require an absolutely sick amount of cap per cycle or a Capital Cloaking Device that still uses a great deal of energy and makes you easier to scan compared to the largest non-covert ops cloak users. Would almost be better for you to log or find a friendly pos.
A covert ops frig or force recon using a covert ops cloaking device would receive a role bonus that reduces the capacitor needed for the covert ops cloaking device to negligle levels. However, any other ship using protocloaks, which by there very nature are the most basic cloak, the cap per cycle would be higher than the improved cloaking device II. Improved cloaking devices would use half as much cap per cycle as the Prototype.
Scanning for non-covert ops and force recon ships would still be difficult and could be dependent on the aforemented things that contribute to how much cap per cycle a proto or improved cloak requires per cycle. Depending on which cloaking device the player has fit can also affect the time needed to probe them out. Prototype cloaking device users would be more vulnerable to being probed out than Improved Cloaking Device II users.
The larger the ship, the more cap required per cycle to stay cloaked and the greater chance of being probed out by probes that can only be used by covert ops and force recon ships and in recon probe launchers.
For Covert Ops and Force Recon Ships, a specific module such as Emission Suppressors for the midslots and Displacement Supressor for the lowslots should be required to prevent scanning. This weakens them combatwise, but makes them impervious to being scanned out as their emissions and displacement are at levels below what probes are able to detect. Maybe as a drawback, the Emission Suppressor weakens the lock range, scan res, shield resistances, sensor strength and the Displacement Suppressor reduces speed, ab and mwd effectiveness, weakens armor resistances.
If the covert pilot doesn't want to fit them so they can be of more use in combat, fine, but they risk being probed. The explorers who want to avoid combat fit them up and can do their exploration.
Would require a lot of calculations and extensive testing, but could be a very good system. Also, people could go to their POS and cloak outside the bubble and laugh as coverts bounce off the shield and recloak asap.
THUKKER -Be Paranoid
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