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Gun-ships dominate the universe: Missile-boats on verge of extinction

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Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 08:47:00 - [1] All Devs must fly Gun ships with this kind of "balancing" going on. Why you ask? Here are the my reasons. Every improvement in the last year has been a Quantum step forward for gunships and a nerf to missileboats. Tech 3 Battleships and Tech 2 ammo is introduced allowing gunships to shoot from 400km (well out of range of ANY missileboat) and their shots are magically teleported to the target immediatly. Tech 2 missiles are introduced to hit small targets that can not go fast. So how many intercepters do you meet that go slower now that we have tech 2 missiles? Oh and since the gunboats are shooting from 400km the new fury missiles are range nerfed to only be able to reach 35km with perfect skills. Proof: Standard Cruise missile Velocity: 3750 m/s Flight Time: 20 sec Damage: 300 hp Precision Cruise Missile Velocity: 3750 m/s Flight Time: 10 sec Explosion radius: 200m Explosion Velocity: 1000 m/s Max Velocity: -4% Damage: 260 hp So what do we get for our money here a missile that does 15% less damage and flys half as long as normal and still cant hit the target if it can go 8km/s and makes missileboats a much better target for gunships. Evaluation: totally useless Fury Cruise Missile Velocity: 1750 m/s Flight Time: 10 sec Cap Recharge: -5% Damage: 345 hp ok here we go the equalizer for going up against other Battleships right? WRONG. Remeber I said now Gunships are hitting from 400km with the magic bullets. Our T2 missiles are doing 15% more damage and we trade off 77% of our range but those gunships might still have trouble killing us while we are closing on them at a scathing 150m/s (will only take a missileboat 42 minutes to get in range) so to make it even easier for the gunship to kill the missileboat they took away 5% cap recharge per launcher. Evaluation: totally useless Just to keep you on track both of the negative effects on missileboats are cumalative. that means if you load up a Raven with a full rack of precision you just decreased your top speed by 24%. And if you load up with a full set of fury you just killed your cap recharge by 30%. None of the effects from the magic bullets are cumalative. Iron charge L Damage 12 hp Kinetic and 8 Thermal Range +60% Cap need -30% Spike L Damage 16 Hp Kinetic and 16 hp Thermal Range +80% tracking -75% Here we get a magic bullet that flies 20% farther and does 60% more damage. Well there is that tracking issue, opps no there isn't because they are sitting 400km away a pre-nerf nano-typhoon would still get hit for max damage. I guess the loss of that extra 30% cap they would be keeping is really the only drawback. Guess they might have to hit the cap booster that totally negates this issue a few more times to destroy any missileboat they see before it even gets in range to shoot. Evaluation: delete any character that isnt a gun-bunny cause game "balance" says too. Yeah I laughed too when I used the balance word.
Chavu The Shadow Order Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.19 08:52:00 - [2] Lame. You have not flown a "Gunboat" before, so you should not be commenting on it. I cannot dream of getting 400km with a Maelstrom and yes my "magic bullet" t2 penalties stack. I know because I just did it a few days ago with my Thrasher and Quake S, might want to show info those bad boys if you want to see real penalties.
Yurii Chan	Posted - 2007.05.19 08:59:00 - [3] Quote: Tech 3 Battleships and Tech 2 ammo is introduced allowing gunships to shoot from 400km (well out of range of ANY missileboat) and their shots are magically teleported to the target immediatly. i stopped reading there. either we're playing different games or my mind is fuzzy and the 250km hard lock cap was taken off.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:00:00 - [4] Originally by: Chavu Lame. You have not flown a "Gunboat" before, so you should not be commenting on it. I cannot dream of getting 400km with a Maelstrom and yes my "magic bullet" t2 penalties stack. I know because I just did it a few days ago with my Thrasher and Quake S, might want to show info those bad boys if you want to see real penalties. Maybe look down the list a bit your ammo is called Tremor. It has same effect 20% range enhance and 60% more damage for no real negative. As far as not being able to get 400km you just need to play with quickfit a little more and I am sure you can figure it out.
Yurii Chan	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:03:00 - [5] Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Chavu Lame. You have not flown a "Gunboat" before, so you should not be commenting on it. I cannot dream of getting 400km with a Maelstrom and yes my "magic bullet" t2 penalties stack. I know because I just did it a few days ago with my Thrasher and Quake S, might want to show info those bad boys if you want to see real penalties. Maybe look down the list a bit your ammo is called Tremor. It has same effect 20% range enhance and 60% more damage for no real negative. As far as not being able to get 400km you just need to play with quickfit a little more and I am sure you can figure it out. ok, maybe YOU need to play the game rather than going into all the theoritical bs you're spewing from your quickfit w***rior ways. if guns are so omgwtfbbqofpwnage how bout you go try them? i'm sure you'll love seeing your laughable damage at "400km"
Royaldo KVA Noble Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:04:00 - [6] Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Chavu Lame. You have not flown a "Gunboat" before, so you should not be commenting on it. I cannot dream of getting 400km with a Maelstrom and yes my "magic bullet" t2 penalties stack. I know because I just did it a few days ago with my Thrasher and Quake S, might want to show info those bad boys if you want to see real penalties. Maybe look down the list a bit your ammo is called Tremor. It has same effect 20% range enhance and 60% more damage for no real negative. As far as not being able to get 400km you just need to play with quickfit a little more and I am sure you can figure it out. WOW! 250km lockrange is max you know... play with quickfit?? how about play the game and stop making silly posts?
Amy Wang	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:05:00 - [7] dont feed the clueless troll
Cairo dog Gallente Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:06:00 - [8] It just so happens it's impossible to lock past 250km because there is a locking range cap. ------------------------------------- Rawr
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:06:00 - [9] Hehe 250km = max hard lock. Although he does have a point about instadamage. Conventional ammunition, even the largest types of howitsers, travels at a max of several kms. per seconds. Missiles need some love..but in a way so it doesnt further overpower the raven/drake/cerb/nh as mission ships but does give them a little thing extra in pvp. Originally by: welsh wizard You might not be able to kill anything but you can sure as hell ignore it and go about your business
Montero Black Omega Security	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:07:00 - [10] Urrrm. You can only lock to 249km in Eve ya know? Also cruise go much much further than any gun boat can shoot and the cap / speed / shield penalties on T2 gun ammo do stack. Also nothing could eve shoot not 400KM You're wrong. Either this is a very good troll or you're a total ****wit. --------- Scrapheap Challenge

Royaldo KVA Noble Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:07:00 - [11] 400km.......dude im gonna bm this thread because its the MOST CLUELESS POST EVER!
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:07:00 - [12] so far all the post are avoiding the facts. so I guess this will just get the usually gun-bunnies hoping that noone will read it and nerf this overpowering gun slant that is taking over the game.
Yurii Chan	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:15:00 - [13] Originally by: Lab Ratta so far all the post are avoiding the facts. so I guess this will just get the usually gun-bunnies hoping that noone will read it and nerf this overpowering gun slant that is taking over the game. sorry we're all sitting here laughing our asses off at some of your 'facts'. frankly i dont know wtf you're asking or wanting. you want your missiles to hit further? use T1.. they go quite far last i checked.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:19:00 - [14] Originally by: Yurii Chan Originally by: Lab Ratta so far all the post are avoiding the facts. so I guess this will just get the usually gun-bunnies hoping that noone will read it and nerf this overpowering gun slant that is taking over the game. sorry we're all sitting here laughing our asses off at some of your 'facts'. frankly i dont know wtf you're asking or wanting. you want your missiles to hit further? use T1.. they go quite far last i checked. Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects.
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:41:00 - [15] If there is one bit I have to agree with is that the delayed damage is a tad extreme. Double missile speed, halve flight time.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:45:00 - [16] Originally by: Max Hardcase If there is one bit I have to agree with is that the delayed damage is a tad extreme. Double missile speed, halve flight time. That gave me chills. I think this is a very good idea. Double speed on missiles might actually let people use them in PVP.
Ask Unbeatable Gallente HighTech Marines Ltd. FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:46:00 - [17] Originally by: Lab Ratta Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects. T1 missiles can shoot well over 200km and you dont have to load all your launchers with the same ammo, you know. 'Gun-boats' cant do this with while maintaining range.
DTson Gauur Glauxian Brothers Ground Zeero	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:46:00 - [18] Originally by: Lab Ratta Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects. I have no idea where you get your numbers but even ME, with just a bit over million sp in missiles, not even fully maxed missile "support" skills can chug Standard T1 Cruises up to 190km... Few more levels of those "support" skills and they go 220km. As the others have said: Get your facts straight man...
Montero Black Omega Security	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:47:00 - [19] Originally by: Max Hardcase If there is one bit I have to agree with is that the delayed damage is a tad extreme. Double missile speed, halve flight time. Go and look up the patch notes for Cold War ;) --------- Scrapheap Challenge
Gawain Hill	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:51:00 - [20] ok i think i'm well qualified to post in this thread i have rockets level 1 and rocket launcher level 1 and a few mill in gunnery... ok last time i checked the way things worked was; 1m) missiles hit 100% of the time 1g) guns miss a hell of alot 2m) missiles hit for max damage each time 2g)guns damage can totally suck or be half decent 3m) at 1km or 200km missiles do the same damage 3g) guns do great damage at 1km (if they can acctually hit which alot can't) and do REALLY bad damage at 200km 4m) missiles are great in PvE 4g) guns suck at PvE 5m) missiles suck for PvP 5g) guns are great for PvP now i saw comment of interceptors somewhere but who cares it's not like they can be hit by gun boats unless they webbed anyway but hey stick 5 target painters on them and everyone can just about hit them

Yurii Chan	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:51:00 - [21] Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Yurii Chan Originally by: Lab Ratta so far all the post are avoiding the facts. so I guess this will just get the usually gun-bunnies hoping that noone will read it and nerf this overpowering gun slant that is taking over the game. sorry we're all sitting here laughing our asses off at some of your 'facts'. frankly i dont know wtf you're asking or wanting. you want your missiles to hit further? use T1.. they go quite far last i checked. Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects. ironic because by my calculations my missiles hit a max of 266,805km. perhaps you need more skills? btw that was in a raven so +50% velocity but then again, what other ship would you put missiles on other than THE dedicated missile battleship? oh and wow, guns hit for 2 resist? (3 on some minmatar) but i'm sure people would prefer 100% dmg on weakest resist than 70% weakest and 30% on some random other (if you dont understand what i just said then please, just delete your account already.)
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:03:00 - [22] yeah 225km if the ship has the right bonuses. that means that while you wait 30 sec for your FIRST missile to hit the target you have been hit 5 to 10 times by every gun on your opponent depending on his RoF. That seems really fair doesnt it and that is if he doesnt simple idle away from you a few m/s just to watch your missiles run out of gas before hitting while still hitting you everytime.
William Hamilton Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:04:00 - [23] Originally by: Gawain Hill ok i think i'm well qualified to post in this thread i have rockets level 1 and rocket launcher level 1 and a few mill in gunnery... ok last time i checked the way things worked was; 1m) missiles hit 100% of the time 1g) guns miss a hell of alot 2m) missiles hit for max damage each time 2g)guns damage can totally suck or be half decent 3m) at 1km or 200km missiles do the same damage 3g) guns do great damage at 1km (if they can acctually hit which alot can't) and do REALLY bad damage at 200km 4m) missiles are great in PvE 4g) guns suck at PvE 5m) missiles suck for PvP 5g) guns are great for PvP now i saw comment of interceptors somewhere but who cares it's not like they can be hit by gun boats unless they webbed anyway but hey stick 5 target painters on them and everyone can just about hit them Unfortunately my friend, you seem as poorly informed as the OP. 2) Missiles nearly never hit for full damage, their damage is attenuated by the target velocity and sig radius. While guns do have scaling damage, it tends to scale somwhat less severely than missiles, gun's main "damage reduction" comes form missed shots. 3) Gun damage does not attenuate with distance, it's always the same. What distance does effect is your chance to hit, either via optimal + faloff, or via the angular velocity for a given transversal. Your other points are generaly correct though.
Montero Black Omega Security	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:05:00 - [24] Gun damage does indeed vary with range, as longer ranged ammo does less damage. --------- Scrapheap Challenge
Mike Atropos	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:09:00 - [25] Actually, fooling around in quickfit, I was able to get a Rokh to shoot out to 483km optimal with Spike, perfect skills, 2x T2 range rigs, 1xT1 Range rig, and six Tracking Computer II. Three tracking comps nerf the maximum range to a dismal 454km optimal. Going a full faction fit with 6x cormacks modified tracking computers increases your optimal to a beyond-stupid 545km! So yea, you can shoot out that far, but you wont lock anything anyways.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:14:00 - [26] Originally by: Gawain Hill ok i think i'm well qualified to post in this thread i have rockets level 1 and rocket launcher level 1 and a few mill in gunnery... ok last time i checked the way things worked was; 1m) missiles hit 100% of the time 1g) guns miss a hell of alot 2m) missiles hit for max damage each time 2g)guns damage can totally suck or be half decent 3m) at 1km or 200km missiles do the same damage 3g) guns do great damage at 1km (if they can acctually hit which alot can't) and do REALLY bad damage at 200km 4m) missiles are great in PvE 4g) guns suck at PvE 5m) missiles suck for PvP 5g) guns are great for PvP now i saw comment of interceptors somewhere but who cares it's not like they can be hit by gun boats unless they webbed anyway but hey stick 5 target painters on them and everyone can just about hit them 1m)Missiles hit if they dont run out of gas or if the target doesnt just flat outrun them. 1g)If your guns miss get the skills and mods to fix it 2m) see 1m) and go read the missle guide for all the other factors that reduce damage. 2g)or go wrecking damage for the OMG WTF was that 3m)yeah it hits same at all range if it hits 3g) not if you use the right ammo 4m) yeah missiles are great when every ship cruiser and larger can take out part of your dps every time you fire. Some named BS targets can take out up to 50% of your missiles before they hit. (Vengence anyone?) 4g) no they do just fine in PVE if you carry 3 types of ammo. 5m) 100% correct missiles can not compete in PVP 5g) yes guns rule pvp completly
Lt Angus Caldari OctoberSnow Corp	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:16:00 - [27] Do you even play EVE? Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:19:00 - [28] Originally by: Montero Gun damage does indeed vary with range, as longer ranged ammo does less damage. did you even read my post Iron charge vs Spike. Spike get a 20% boost to range and a 60% boost in Damage. What trade off is that?????????
Yurii Chan	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:22:00 - [29] Originally by: Lt Angus Do you even play EVE? clearly he doesnt and quite a few replies from other posters show that many really dont play.... its sad really, its like buying a ferrari and complaining that a formula 1 goes faster.. LIKE zOMGUbER!!! ffs, we already established that missiles are a completely different weapon system than guns (for starters they are by FAR easier to train for) so please ffs, dont bring that "oh but it takes 30 seconds for my missiles to even start their dmg"... you want to hit instantly? get a friend in a covops and warp in right on top of him. benefit is that he wont hit you for ****! as for the main damage reduction of guns coming from missed shots - please go and shoot a gun 1000 times. i can assure you the miss shots are the least of our worries since we have to roll a die per hit giving - miss, barely hit, hit, excellent and wreck (wreck being RARE in most cases) whereas missiles hit for (usually) hit hit hit hit hit. (usually because yes target size and velocity can fubar this but same goes for turrets. trust me if you cant hit a ship going 5km/s, us turret users can either unless that 5km/s pilot is a complete tard flying straight at us) - sorry angus i've quoted you but most of the rest of my post is directed at the noob alt and some others.
Hank Showbo Neyi Industries	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:25:00 - [30] Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Montero Gun damage does indeed vary with range, as longer ranged ammo does less damage. did you even read my post Iron charge vs Spike. Spike get a 20% boost to range and a 60% boost in Damage. What trade off is that????????? Spike also gives a penalty of 0.25 tracking, so tracking is reduced by 75% too.



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