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Koryvarn Amarr Fleet Of Elite The OSS	Posted - 2007.05.19 12:16:00 - [61] No one has mentioned skill points. You need what, 3 times the amount of SP in Gunnery for T2 large guns, than you need compared to T2 Cruise missiles? Missiles are like drones - secondary DPS tools. Guns were always the primary tool.
Susan Acid Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.19 12:57:00 - [62] Erm..you're Caldari.Your primary damage is missiles. If you want to do instant damage at long range buy a Rokh. And where did you get 400km from?
xDaKewlGuyx	Posted - 2007.05.19 13:34:00 - [63] Stop responding to the OP, this is an obvious troll.
Broska Shadow Blades	Posted - 2007.05.19 13:42:00 - [64] This thread is the greatest ever posted. Thank you to the OP, I've not laugh'd that hard for a while. And on the ontopic part, Your clearly an Idiot. ------------------------------ Originally by: Tovarishch flying a Scorp into a fleet battle is like parking a pink moped in front of a biker bar - you will die... quickly.
Gorros Sons of Tyr	Posted - 2007.05.19 13:48:00 - [65] Well, apart from the OP having hardly any idea what he is talking about, missiles need love indeed. It is true that missiles are still great for PVE, but lets be honest, turrets and drones are almost as good in the hands of a decent player - and even better than missiles in the hands of a veteran. Still, lets say that missiles are still better at PVE, just for the sake of it. However, in PVP missiles have rather big disadvantages. The damage is lower than your typical turrets' is, but thats ok due to the fact that well... (only) the raven and the phoon are able to field all kinds of damage types. The thing making missiles unatractive is the lack of instant damage. But there are actually two things making up this problem: 1. The inability to hit interceptors: to be more precise the inablitity of light missiles to do sensible damage on very fast moving targets (increase explosion speed and travelling speed a bit). However, a precision cruise missile (disregarding the fact its called precision) isnt meant to strike ceptors, it is designed to take out cruisers, its explosion speed should be decreased) 2. Now the other thing: inability to snipe with missiles. Lets face it, most blob combat is taking place at ranges of 100+ km, so there should not be any dispute that missiles have a rather big disadvantage of traversing these range in sensible time, and that most targets can warp off before the storm begins. Now, there are several ways to fix this. The first would be doubling - maybe even trippling - missile speeds, while reducing flight time. This i'd consider rather boring, since then we could just turn missiles into the 4th turret class. But there is also an alternative: Reintroduce missile damage after the the person firing them has warped off/been killed. This in my oppinion would give missiles the long lost edge to compete in real PVP again. It would deepen the concept of missiles and reintroduce some direly needed depth in strategy.
Jintoi	Posted - 2007.05.19 14:36:00 - [66] 250km is the max lock range in EvE guns cant shoot 400km.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.19 15:06:00 - [67] Edited by: Aramendel on 19/05/2007 15:11:20 Originally by: Lab Ratta I would be curious to see how a ship with 8 guns firing at twice the speed of the 6 missile launchers would put out less damage. Because they do less damage per shot. Seriously, look at the stats. Calculating dps is extremly simple, it's grade school math. One t2 425mm rail has a damage mod of 3.3 and a ROF of 9.56. Spike L does 32 damage. Combine that and you get a base dps of 11.05. Then add skills to that: 11.05 * 1.25 (large hybrids) * 1.15 (surgical strike) * 1.1 (large rail spec) / 0.9 (gunnery) / 0.8 (rapid fire) -> and we get 24.26 dps per gun. Now lets use them on a mega with a 25% damage bonus and 7 gun slots: 24.26 * 1.25 * 7 -> 212.27 dps. With 3 damage mods this gets increased by around 65% to 350 dps. Now, a cruise missile launcher 2 has a ROF of 17.6 sec. One cruise missle does 300 damage. Gives us a base dps of 17.05. With skills: 17.05 * 1.25 (cruise missiles) * 1.10 (warhead upgrades) / 0.9 (missile launcher op) / 0.85 (rapid launch) / 0.9 (cruise missile spec) -> 34.04 dps per launcher. On a raven with the 25% ROF bonus and 6 launchers: 34.04 / 0.75 * 6 -> 272.33 dps. With 3 damage mods 449 dps. Check the numbers then post. Just sprouting completly wrong stuff will only get you rediculed. Originally by: Gorros But there is also an alternative: Reintroduce missile damage after the the person firing them has warped off/been killed. Relatively useless because their target will be also dead/warped off in most cases. You could make them reaquiring new targets automatically, of cource, but that wouldn't do much in terms of focussed fire. The thing is really that if you would reduce/cancel the "delayed damage" of missiles you would have to nerf their dps considerably. Because that is WAY above that of any sniper setups.
Jacob Holland Gallente FIRMA	Posted - 2007.05.19 17:55:00 - [68] Edited by: Jacob Holland on 19/05/2007 17:58:10 Originally by: Lab Ratta Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects. Cataclysm Cruise Missile: Velocity: 3750m/s Flight Time: 20 seconds Flight Time Increase from Missile Bombardment: 10 seconds Velocity Increase from Missile Projection: 1875m/s Velocity Increase from Raven: 2812.5m/s Final Velocity: 8437.5m/s Final Flight Time: 30 seconds Maximum range (theoretical): 253.152km Not only is this beyond the Hard lock cap but that is without modules - a missile can achieve that range without impairing tank or damage. Compare that to a 425 railgun II on a Rokh (without modules) 425mm Railgun II Optimal Range: 58km Falloff Range: 24km Increase to Optimal from Sharpshooter: 14.5km Increase to Optimal from Rokh: 36.25km Increase to Optimal from Spike L: 87km Increase to Falloff from Trajectory Analysis: 6km Maximum Range (theoretical): 225.75km Note that in order to achieve these ranges the Rokh pilot has to fit T2 (Proto Gauss would reduce the range to 200.25km) while the Raven pilot could fit base T1 without impairing his range. Now what was that you were saying about 150km maximum range on missiles? Would that be the 158.2km maximum range on Javelin Torps? The *Short Range* missile? Lasers have the longest range shortrange option so let's look at them... Mega Pulse Laser II Optimal Range: 24km Falloff Range: 8km Increase to Optimal for Sharpshooter: 6km Increase to Optimal for Scorch L: 15km Increase to Optimal for Radio L: 18km Increase to Falloff for Trajectory Analysis: 2km Maximum Range (theoretical): 58km Looks a bit measly compared to the Torps doesn't it? Especially when you consider that (in ideal conditions) the Torps deal significantly higher DPS... /emote puts out a large bucket labelled "Troll snacks" and retires to a safe distance. -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Talos Darkhart	Posted - 2007.05.19 17:56:00 - [69] Only problem I can see is why did the one race who cannot tackle and tank at the same time get stuck with the primary weapon that you can run away from meh go figure
Jacob Holland Gallente FIRMA	Posted - 2007.05.19 18:03:00 - [70] They didn't - assuming you're talking about the Caldari. They got Railguns. It's just that Missiles are easier and therefore very few Caldari bother training guns until they've maxed out their missile skills. -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.

000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.05.19 18:06:00 - [71] Got a problem with missiles? Take a passive tanked NH, orbit ur enemy at 500mtrs (aka in his face), hit F1 to F6 and enjoy the show. BS? use furies for added damage, frig? use precision for added damage. Cruiser? well... not even gonna answer that. CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.19 18:10:00 - [72] And nevermind that if you fly faster than a missile no gunship will be able to hit you either (unless you fly striaght at/away from them). If any weaponsystem deserves to be called "let you fly away from it" it are drones. Cruise missile speed on a raven: 8428 m/s. Berserker heavy drone speed: 1575 m/s.
Talos Darkhart	Posted - 2007.05.19 18:13:00 - [73] Hmmmm if i remember correctly untill recently the caldari only had 1 combat battleship and it used missles (scorp doen't count it's not a combat ship just a giant floating bulls eye) pretty much all other cal ships are evenly split between missles and guns. except for the poor piles of junk like the raptor which have the travisty that is split bonuses ( and tbh that goes for most ships that have split dmg bonuses except the phoon on which it kinda works). oh and while my memory may be faulty i'm pretty sure one of the reasons given for the origanal missle nerf was there promotion to primary weapon status but seriously missles would have worked much better on Amour tanking ships.
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.05.19 18:16:00 - [74] Originally by: Montero Gun damage does indeed vary with range, as longer ranged ammo does less damage. Shots that land in Optimal, Falloff, and beyond Falloff, do not do the same amount of damage. The base damage may not change, but you're going to see mostly "light hits", "barely scratched" and whatnot for hits beyond Accuracy Falloff, with heavier and harder hits only coming in as you get into higher accuracy territory, then only the overdamage shots "Excellent" and "Perfect" within Optimal range. And lets not even get into the minimum range crap with the tracking speeds. I don't mind them for realism, so don't take this as a whine or a nerf call, but they're a certifiable pain in the ass in action. This is my sig, there are many others just like it. With me, my sig is worthless. Without (or with even) my sig, I am worthless...
Sean Drake Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.05.19 18:19:00 - [75] Originally by: Aramendel And nevermind that if you fly faster than a missile no gunship will be able to hit you either (unless you fly striaght at/away from them). If any weaponsystem deserves to be called "let you fly away from it" it are drones. Cruise missile speed on a raven: 8428 m/s. Berserker heavy drone speed: 1575 m/s. Well I have flown a vulture and if setup purely to snipe even with spike and it's tracking penelty your not going to miss many ceptors from 240km out but it's a moot point missles and most cadari are for PvE and occasional gangs. For solo and tbh pretty much any other type of PvP gal is the way to go luckily it's fairly easy to cross train over from cal.
Draconis Amarr Stronghold corp	Posted - 2007.05.19 18:43:00 - [76] Originally by: Max Hardcase If there is one bit I have to agree with is that the delayed damage is a tad extreme. Double missile speed, halve flight time. HAHA! If Missiles get any more overbalanced than turrets then EVERYONE will be back to flying Ravens and Drakes like a couple of years ago when Missiles required like 3 skills lol. I run Caldari and Amarr, mostly Caldari if I want to be able to tank and do Damage. I fly Caldari enough to have Caldari BS5 and I'm working on Battlecruisers 5 for the Drake. Missiles are overbalanced, you have the ability to hit smaller faster moving ships more consistantly and for better damage as well as hold a good if not great tank in comparison to the equal ship in a Turret class. And to put things on the table, I have all L5 Gunnery and L5 Missile skills and by far Missile boats are better. Put a Drake vs a Harbinger or Hurricane in a toe to toe. I garauntee the Drake will pump out almost the same damage and the Hurricane won't break the tank. In the same idea you put a Raven Vs an Apoc the Raven will easily win. I won't even get into Nos-Domi's. Missiles are just fine, actually they could use a bit more "tweaking" in the nerf department this coming from a missile user.
Aurael Drakewing Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.19 19:00:00 - [77] Originally by: Jim McGregor Because guns have higher dps when you are close. Missiles have higher dps at range. Let me draw you a picture: sniper dps There you go. Now please admit that you are wrong. Actually, Jim...the graph you linked shows the exact opposite. I think it's because you used Siege launchers instead of Cruise, so you're comparing a "short"-range weapon against sniper weapons...
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.19 19:17:00 - [78] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 19/05/2007 19:15:18 Originally by: Aurael Drakewing Originally by: Jim McGregor Because guns have higher dps when you are close. Missiles have higher dps at range. Let me draw you a picture: sniper dps There you go. Now please admit that you are wrong. Actually, Jim...the graph you linked shows the exact opposite. I think it's because you used Siege launchers instead of Cruise, so you're comparing a "short"-range weapon against sniper weapons... The "short range" missiles have higher damage and range than the long range turrets in this game, which is why i picked siege. But the numbers for t2 cruise missiles with 3 damage mods is 450 dps - up to 250 km range. As you can see in the graph, its still more than almost any long range gun turret can achieve (only abaddon makes it). So about 600 dps with torpedoes at 125 km away or 450 dps at 250 km away, depending on missiles. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Commander Thrawn Fluffy Rabbit Killers	Posted - 2007.05.19 20:14:00 - [79] Im must agree with the op you hardly see any ravens out there since missiles are so bad..... no wait OP you lose eve
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.05.19 20:48:00 - [80] Originally by: Commander Thrawn Im must agree with the op you hardly see any ravens out there since missiles are so bad..... no wait OP you lose eve You're trying to tell me you've seen Ravens being used in PvP by anyone who has an alternative? Colour me shocked.

NoNah	Posted - 2007.05.19 20:56:00 - [81] Edited by: NoNah on 19/05/2007 20:56:43 Figured, I for once should go with the op and compare, and actually accept the fact that t2 gun ammo is more versatile than t2 missiles. Now. So your t2 missiles, hit at say 100km?(At this point im really trying to go with you but theres simply no way you can claim that they deal less damage, precision missiles are awesome to anything the size of a BC, seriously, try breaking a passive drakes tank with any cruise but the prec's and youll se. But I allready promised I'd go with you, so lets just say they deal the same damage.) So 100km, and 300 damage per volley, about 17 sec RoF, 105 dps. Unskilled. Now lets compare to drones. 25 km drones(a total max of 60km, with absolute max skills), 16.56 damage per drone, 2 sec RoF, 5 drones. 41 dps at 25km. This is t2 for you. Now there are several ships who are usually flown with drones as their only offense. Dominix, Ishtar, ishkur, vexor, myrmid, curse... need I go on? Thus, yes, boost missiles, give them uhm, twice the range! And then, tripple the damage of drones and _atleast_ quadruple its range. Oh and NOS! I mean wtf! 25 km range? We need 200 _ATLEAST_! Nosdomis are horribly underpowered. Compared to all those gun and missileboats. =( Quote: You're trying to tell me you've seen Ravens being used in PvP by anyone who has an alternative? Colour me shocked. This really made me giggle, ever heard the name "Burn Eden"?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.19 21:50:00 - [82] Edited by: Aramendel on 19/05/2007 21:50:03 Originally by: James Lyrus You're trying to tell me you've seen Ravens being used in PvP by anyone who has an alternative? Colour me shocked. Try burn eden. Missile ships need something to hold their target down, like a dictor or large bubble, but when this is the case they are rewarded by the most superior longrange dps in the game. Remove that "need to tackle" disadvantage of missiles longrange you will need to nerf their dps. Or reduce the current missiles to around 10-30k range (with range ship boni) and introduce new low dps missiles with the current ranges. Quote: Missiles have severe limitiations for PvP, especially the 'fast' missiles, such as rockets - it's just silly that ceptors can outrun precisions, and ... well, rockets suffer from the problem that their range isn't enough. (By which I mean, if you're both flying at a few km/sec, a rocket will get left behind by both your ships) For rockets you really need to web your target, which is not really different for gun closerange ceptors. Which in general suck due to that. It's no rocket crow unique issue. FOr light missiles...yes, if they fly 8 km/s. Which nowadays certainly possible it requires for you to invest at least 200 mil on your ceptor. Not really the "common" setups. And in the 4-8 km/s area where the vaste majority of ceptors are in crows are superior in ceptor vs ceptor combat since their dps is not effected by tracking issues which are rather severe there. In the light of that I do not really think it's a big "imbalance" of them being "useless" vs the top pimped ceptors. Especially since their guns won't hit them at ALL at those speeds either. Asking for a buff there is simply not realizing the problems of other ships at these speeds.
Futuris Minmatar Nano Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.19 22:03:00 - [83] Edited by: Futuris on 19/05/2007 22:01:13 Originally by: Jacob Holland Mega Pulse Laser II Optimal Range: 24km Falloff Range: 8km Increase to Optimal for Sharpshooter: 6km Increase to Optimal for Scorch L: 15km Increase to Optimal for Radio L: 18km Increase to Falloff for Trajectory Analysis: 2km Maximum Range (theoretical): 58km Looks a bit measly compared to the Torps doesn't it? Especially when you consider that (in ideal conditions) the Torps deal significantly higher DPS... /emote puts out a large bucket labelled "Troll snacks" and retires to a safe distance. Raven, t2 siege, 3 damage mods: 618 dps Abaddon, megapulse II, scorch, 3 damage mods: 730 dps, 49km optimal before mods Last I checked, 618 is not "significantly higher" than 730. Also, gun range can be increased with tracking comps/enhancers - no such mod for missiles...
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.19 22:13:00 - [84] Edited by: Aramendel on 19/05/2007 22:11:57 Great. And now try it for the 80-120k range. (Battleship class) Missiles have superior dps from 80k on and weaker dps for less than 80k. And also nevermind that you are comparing an abaddon will cap out quite soon vs a raven which will not.
Jane Spondogolo NoobWaffe	Posted - 2007.05.19 22:19:00 - [85] At 200km , my main can knock any T1 cruiser off the battlefied in 2 or 3 volleys in a frigging manticore with T1 cruises (Wont actually work on T2 cruises- low flight time). Try that on any frigate with T1 or T2 with guns of any sort at any range. Or take a crow. What that thing does with missiles is obscene. Sure you can stick spike in a rail gun and match its range, but your damage will suck into almost worthlessness. Sure I get as irritated as the next guy at flight times. But thats the trade off for such violent weaponry. And yes, Im currently training T2 large rails, but thats only because I've kind of maxed most of the missile skills I think are interesting to me. ______ Unrepentant Southern Federation Cheerleader.
Jane Spondogolo NoobWaffe	Posted - 2007.05.19 22:22:00 - [86] Originally by: Talos Darkhart ](scorp doen't count it's not a combat ship just a giant floating bulls eye) ] And one of the most amazingly violent and survivable ships in the game if you know what your doing. That said, CCP *UN-NERF ECM!* ______ Unrepentant Southern Federation Cheerleader.
Futuris Minmatar Nano Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.19 22:33:00 - [87] Edited by: Futuris on 19/05/2007 22:32:09 Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 19/05/2007 22:20:43 Great. And now try it for the 80-120k range. (Battleship class) Missiles have superior dps from 80k on and weaker dps for less than 80k. And also nevermind that you are comparing an abaddon which will cap out quite soon vs a raven which will not. I agree with you (although a sniping abaddon will do slightly more dps than a raven with cruises I think - until he runs out of cap, that is ). I was just pointing out that the statement about megapulses having "significantly worse dps" than torps was a straight lie.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.19 22:36:00 - [88] You missed the "(in ideal conditions)" Obviously torps deal less dps at closer ranges, but when they can use their range advantage they are far superior-
Azirapheal Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.05.19 22:39:00 - [89] missiles advantages no cap to fire every flavour of damage with missile projection 5 they have very good range (and i created a noob with this) they NEVER MISS disadvantages damage is fairly set - no chance of a wrecking hit for that extra slice of damage t2 missiles arent brilliant - but at least it stops the crow from orbiting you at 12kms gun advantages insta damage wrecking hits disadvantages light hits MISSING Yarrr sig nerf - that picture was way too big. Please keep it under 24000 bytes. Thanks, Hango Hango touched me in the night I also stole all of your socks.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2007.05.19 22:53:00 - [90] Originally by: Futuris Edited by: Futuris on 19/05/2007 22:01:13 Originally by: Jacob Holland Mega Pulse Laser II Optimal Range: 24km Falloff Range: 8km Increase to Optimal for Sharpshooter: 6km Increase to Optimal for Scorch L: 15km Increase to Optimal for Radio L: 18km Increase to Falloff for Trajectory Analysis: 2km Maximum Range (theoretical): 58km Looks a bit measly compared to the Torps doesn't it? Especially when you consider that (in ideal conditions) the Torps deal significantly higher DPS... /emote puts out a large bucket labelled "Troll snacks" and retires to a safe distance. Raven, t2 siege, 3 damage mods: 618 dps Abaddon, megapulse II, scorch, 3 damage mods: 730 dps, 49km optimal before mods Last I checked, 618 is not "significantly higher" than 730. Also, gun range can be increased with tracking comps/enhancers - no such mod for missiles... this comparsion doesn't mean much... first the range should be 46km and not 49, at around 50km these ships have same dps (no drones) the you don't take in account some important factors... megapulse is a short range weapon, it have very good dps and range for a short range but the tradeoff is a severe cap usage (expecially on the abaddon that have not cap weapon bonus) that doesn't permit to fire continuosly for long time or need a "gimped" setup to be used well on the other hand torps use no cap, have full damage choice and can reach around 125km with normal and around 160km with javs (and here we start to enter in fleet/sniper range), the tradeoff of course is the "delayed" dmg that imo is more than justified by other stats another problem of pulse is tracking as it is quite low, it work well at such range but if other ships start to orbit outside webber range ir becomes a bit problematic if we take in account t2 ammos and gank the raven pilot have even the option to use rage torps if a comrade is using tp to paint the opponent... this option gives to the raven pilot a sustained dps comparable to the abaddon one up to 36km. finally the setup of the 2 ships... for the raven this is a normal setup with a strong shield tank and 3 dmg mods, for an abaddon instead to fit 3 dmg mods mean that you are going to armortank with 4 slots and probably the mid slots will be occuped by some cap rechargers/boosters too.. to close... ther's a reson why i don't like to use lasers for comparsion in my endless whining posts about arties... is because cap problems that need to be attressed by the ship setup and make it difficult to do a straight comparsion in a "sustained fire enviroment" with other weapons that have not such problems... it can be easy to grab a graph with lasers with uber dps/alpha or range but that's not a fair comparsion because the laser pilot have to fit his ship in a different way than a proj, rail or missile pilot (who is the one with less problems in the end) Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".



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