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Gun-ships dominate the universe: Missile-boats on verge of extinction

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Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 08:47:00 - [1] All Devs must fly Gun ships with this kind of "balancing" going on. Why you ask? Here are the my reasons. Every improvement in the last year has been a Quantum step forward for gunships and a nerf to missileboats. Tech 3 Battleships and Tech 2 ammo is introduced allowing gunships to shoot from 400km (well out of range of ANY missileboat) and their shots are magically teleported to the target immediatly. Tech 2 missiles are introduced to hit small targets that can not go fast. So how many intercepters do you meet that go slower now that we have tech 2 missiles? Oh and since the gunboats are shooting from 400km the new fury missiles are range nerfed to only be able to reach 35km with perfect skills. Proof: Standard Cruise missile Velocity: 3750 m/s Flight Time: 20 sec Damage: 300 hp Precision Cruise Missile Velocity: 3750 m/s Flight Time: 10 sec Explosion radius: 200m Explosion Velocity: 1000 m/s Max Velocity: -4% Damage: 260 hp So what do we get for our money here a missile that does 15% less damage and flys half as long as normal and still cant hit the target if it can go 8km/s and makes missileboats a much better target for gunships. Evaluation: totally useless Fury Cruise Missile Velocity: 1750 m/s Flight Time: 10 sec Cap Recharge: -5% Damage: 345 hp ok here we go the equalizer for going up against other Battleships right? WRONG. Remeber I said now Gunships are hitting from 400km with the magic bullets. Our T2 missiles are doing 15% more damage and we trade off 77% of our range but those gunships might still have trouble killing us while we are closing on them at a scathing 150m/s (will only take a missileboat 42 minutes to get in range) so to make it even easier for the gunship to kill the missileboat they took away 5% cap recharge per launcher. Evaluation: totally useless Just to keep you on track both of the negative effects on missileboats are cumalative. that means if you load up a Raven with a full rack of precision you just decreased your top speed by 24%. And if you load up with a full set of fury you just killed your cap recharge by 30%. None of the effects from the magic bullets are cumalative. Iron charge L Damage 12 hp Kinetic and 8 Thermal Range +60% Cap need -30% Spike L Damage 16 Hp Kinetic and 16 hp Thermal Range +80% tracking -75% Here we get a magic bullet that flies 20% farther and does 60% more damage. Well there is that tracking issue, opps no there isn't because they are sitting 400km away a pre-nerf nano-typhoon would still get hit for max damage. I guess the loss of that extra 30% cap they would be keeping is really the only drawback. Guess they might have to hit the cap booster that totally negates this issue a few more times to destroy any missileboat they see before it even gets in range to shoot. Evaluation: delete any character that isnt a gun-bunny cause game "balance" says too. Yeah I laughed too when I used the balance word.
Chavu The Shadow Order Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.19 08:52:00 - [2] Lame. You have not flown a "Gunboat" before, so you should not be commenting on it. I cannot dream of getting 400km with a Maelstrom and yes my "magic bullet" t2 penalties stack. I know because I just did it a few days ago with my Thrasher and Quake S, might want to show info those bad boys if you want to see real penalties.
Yurii Chan	Posted - 2007.05.19 08:59:00 - [3] Quote: Tech 3 Battleships and Tech 2 ammo is introduced allowing gunships to shoot from 400km (well out of range of ANY missileboat) and their shots are magically teleported to the target immediatly. i stopped reading there. either we're playing different games or my mind is fuzzy and the 250km hard lock cap was taken off.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:00:00 - [4] Originally by: Chavu Lame. You have not flown a "Gunboat" before, so you should not be commenting on it. I cannot dream of getting 400km with a Maelstrom and yes my "magic bullet" t2 penalties stack. I know because I just did it a few days ago with my Thrasher and Quake S, might want to show info those bad boys if you want to see real penalties. Maybe look down the list a bit your ammo is called Tremor. It has same effect 20% range enhance and 60% more damage for no real negative. As far as not being able to get 400km you just need to play with quickfit a little more and I am sure you can figure it out.
Yurii Chan	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:03:00 - [5] Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Chavu Lame. You have not flown a "Gunboat" before, so you should not be commenting on it. I cannot dream of getting 400km with a Maelstrom and yes my "magic bullet" t2 penalties stack. I know because I just did it a few days ago with my Thrasher and Quake S, might want to show info those bad boys if you want to see real penalties. Maybe look down the list a bit your ammo is called Tremor. It has same effect 20% range enhance and 60% more damage for no real negative. As far as not being able to get 400km you just need to play with quickfit a little more and I am sure you can figure it out. ok, maybe YOU need to play the game rather than going into all the theoritical bs you're spewing from your quickfit w***rior ways. if guns are so omgwtfbbqofpwnage how bout you go try them? i'm sure you'll love seeing your laughable damage at "400km"
Royaldo KVA Noble Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:04:00 - [6] Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Chavu Lame. You have not flown a "Gunboat" before, so you should not be commenting on it. I cannot dream of getting 400km with a Maelstrom and yes my "magic bullet" t2 penalties stack. I know because I just did it a few days ago with my Thrasher and Quake S, might want to show info those bad boys if you want to see real penalties. Maybe look down the list a bit your ammo is called Tremor. It has same effect 20% range enhance and 60% more damage for no real negative. As far as not being able to get 400km you just need to play with quickfit a little more and I am sure you can figure it out. WOW! 250km lockrange is max you know... play with quickfit?? how about play the game and stop making silly posts?
Amy Wang	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:05:00 - [7] dont feed the clueless troll
Cairo dog Gallente Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:06:00 - [8] It just so happens it's impossible to lock past 250km because there is a locking range cap. ------------------------------------- Rawr
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:06:00 - [9] Hehe 250km = max hard lock. Although he does have a point about instadamage. Conventional ammunition, even the largest types of howitsers, travels at a max of several kms. per seconds. Missiles need some love..but in a way so it doesnt further overpower the raven/drake/cerb/nh as mission ships but does give them a little thing extra in pvp. Originally by: welsh wizard You might not be able to kill anything but you can sure as hell ignore it and go about your business
Montero Black Omega Security	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:07:00 - [10] Urrrm. You can only lock to 249km in Eve ya know? Also cruise go much much further than any gun boat can shoot and the cap / speed / shield penalties on T2 gun ammo do stack. Also nothing could eve shoot not 400KM You're wrong. Either this is a very good troll or you're a total ****wit. --------- Scrapheap Challenge

Royaldo KVA Noble Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:07:00 - [11] 400km.......dude im gonna bm this thread because its the MOST CLUELESS POST EVER!
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:07:00 - [12] so far all the post are avoiding the facts. so I guess this will just get the usually gun-bunnies hoping that noone will read it and nerf this overpowering gun slant that is taking over the game.
Yurii Chan	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:15:00 - [13] Originally by: Lab Ratta so far all the post are avoiding the facts. so I guess this will just get the usually gun-bunnies hoping that noone will read it and nerf this overpowering gun slant that is taking over the game. sorry we're all sitting here laughing our asses off at some of your 'facts'. frankly i dont know wtf you're asking or wanting. you want your missiles to hit further? use T1.. they go quite far last i checked.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:19:00 - [14] Originally by: Yurii Chan Originally by: Lab Ratta so far all the post are avoiding the facts. so I guess this will just get the usually gun-bunnies hoping that noone will read it and nerf this overpowering gun slant that is taking over the game. sorry we're all sitting here laughing our asses off at some of your 'facts'. frankly i dont know wtf you're asking or wanting. you want your missiles to hit further? use T1.. they go quite far last i checked. Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects.
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:41:00 - [15] If there is one bit I have to agree with is that the delayed damage is a tad extreme. Double missile speed, halve flight time.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:45:00 - [16] Originally by: Max Hardcase If there is one bit I have to agree with is that the delayed damage is a tad extreme. Double missile speed, halve flight time. That gave me chills. I think this is a very good idea. Double speed on missiles might actually let people use them in PVP.
Ask Unbeatable Gallente HighTech Marines Ltd. FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:46:00 - [17] Originally by: Lab Ratta Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects. T1 missiles can shoot well over 200km and you dont have to load all your launchers with the same ammo, you know. 'Gun-boats' cant do this with while maintaining range.
DTson Gauur Glauxian Brothers Ground Zeero	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:46:00 - [18] Originally by: Lab Ratta Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects. I have no idea where you get your numbers but even ME, with just a bit over million sp in missiles, not even fully maxed missile "support" skills can chug Standard T1 Cruises up to 190km... Few more levels of those "support" skills and they go 220km. As the others have said: Get your facts straight man...
Montero Black Omega Security	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:47:00 - [19] Originally by: Max Hardcase If there is one bit I have to agree with is that the delayed damage is a tad extreme. Double missile speed, halve flight time. Go and look up the patch notes for Cold War ;) --------- Scrapheap Challenge
Gawain Hill	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:51:00 - [20] ok i think i'm well qualified to post in this thread i have rockets level 1 and rocket launcher level 1 and a few mill in gunnery... ok last time i checked the way things worked was; 1m) missiles hit 100% of the time 1g) guns miss a hell of alot 2m) missiles hit for max damage each time 2g)guns damage can totally suck or be half decent 3m) at 1km or 200km missiles do the same damage 3g) guns do great damage at 1km (if they can acctually hit which alot can't) and do REALLY bad damage at 200km 4m) missiles are great in PvE 4g) guns suck at PvE 5m) missiles suck for PvP 5g) guns are great for PvP now i saw comment of interceptors somewhere but who cares it's not like they can be hit by gun boats unless they webbed anyway but hey stick 5 target painters on them and everyone can just about hit them

Yurii Chan	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:51:00 - [21] Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Yurii Chan Originally by: Lab Ratta so far all the post are avoiding the facts. so I guess this will just get the usually gun-bunnies hoping that noone will read it and nerf this overpowering gun slant that is taking over the game. sorry we're all sitting here laughing our asses off at some of your 'facts'. frankly i dont know wtf you're asking or wanting. you want your missiles to hit further? use T1.. they go quite far last i checked. Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects. ironic because by my calculations my missiles hit a max of 266,805km. perhaps you need more skills? btw that was in a raven so +50% velocity but then again, what other ship would you put missiles on other than THE dedicated missile battleship? oh and wow, guns hit for 2 resist? (3 on some minmatar) but i'm sure people would prefer 100% dmg on weakest resist than 70% weakest and 30% on some random other (if you dont understand what i just said then please, just delete your account already.)
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:03:00 - [22] yeah 225km if the ship has the right bonuses. that means that while you wait 30 sec for your FIRST missile to hit the target you have been hit 5 to 10 times by every gun on your opponent depending on his RoF. That seems really fair doesnt it and that is if he doesnt simple idle away from you a few m/s just to watch your missiles run out of gas before hitting while still hitting you everytime.
William Hamilton Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:04:00 - [23] Originally by: Gawain Hill ok i think i'm well qualified to post in this thread i have rockets level 1 and rocket launcher level 1 and a few mill in gunnery... ok last time i checked the way things worked was; 1m) missiles hit 100% of the time 1g) guns miss a hell of alot 2m) missiles hit for max damage each time 2g)guns damage can totally suck or be half decent 3m) at 1km or 200km missiles do the same damage 3g) guns do great damage at 1km (if they can acctually hit which alot can't) and do REALLY bad damage at 200km 4m) missiles are great in PvE 4g) guns suck at PvE 5m) missiles suck for PvP 5g) guns are great for PvP now i saw comment of interceptors somewhere but who cares it's not like they can be hit by gun boats unless they webbed anyway but hey stick 5 target painters on them and everyone can just about hit them Unfortunately my friend, you seem as poorly informed as the OP. 2) Missiles nearly never hit for full damage, their damage is attenuated by the target velocity and sig radius. While guns do have scaling damage, it tends to scale somwhat less severely than missiles, gun's main "damage reduction" comes form missed shots. 3) Gun damage does not attenuate with distance, it's always the same. What distance does effect is your chance to hit, either via optimal + faloff, or via the angular velocity for a given transversal. Your other points are generaly correct though.
Montero Black Omega Security	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:05:00 - [24] Gun damage does indeed vary with range, as longer ranged ammo does less damage. --------- Scrapheap Challenge
Mike Atropos	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:09:00 - [25] Actually, fooling around in quickfit, I was able to get a Rokh to shoot out to 483km optimal with Spike, perfect skills, 2x T2 range rigs, 1xT1 Range rig, and six Tracking Computer II. Three tracking comps nerf the maximum range to a dismal 454km optimal. Going a full faction fit with 6x cormacks modified tracking computers increases your optimal to a beyond-stupid 545km! So yea, you can shoot out that far, but you wont lock anything anyways.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:14:00 - [26] Originally by: Gawain Hill ok i think i'm well qualified to post in this thread i have rockets level 1 and rocket launcher level 1 and a few mill in gunnery... ok last time i checked the way things worked was; 1m) missiles hit 100% of the time 1g) guns miss a hell of alot 2m) missiles hit for max damage each time 2g)guns damage can totally suck or be half decent 3m) at 1km or 200km missiles do the same damage 3g) guns do great damage at 1km (if they can acctually hit which alot can't) and do REALLY bad damage at 200km 4m) missiles are great in PvE 4g) guns suck at PvE 5m) missiles suck for PvP 5g) guns are great for PvP now i saw comment of interceptors somewhere but who cares it's not like they can be hit by gun boats unless they webbed anyway but hey stick 5 target painters on them and everyone can just about hit them 1m)Missiles hit if they dont run out of gas or if the target doesnt just flat outrun them. 1g)If your guns miss get the skills and mods to fix it 2m) see 1m) and go read the missle guide for all the other factors that reduce damage. 2g)or go wrecking damage for the OMG WTF was that 3m)yeah it hits same at all range if it hits 3g) not if you use the right ammo 4m) yeah missiles are great when every ship cruiser and larger can take out part of your dps every time you fire. Some named BS targets can take out up to 50% of your missiles before they hit. (Vengence anyone?) 4g) no they do just fine in PVE if you carry 3 types of ammo. 5m) 100% correct missiles can not compete in PVP 5g) yes guns rule pvp completly
Lt Angus Caldari OctoberSnow Corp	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:16:00 - [27] Do you even play EVE? Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:19:00 - [28] Originally by: Montero Gun damage does indeed vary with range, as longer ranged ammo does less damage. did you even read my post Iron charge vs Spike. Spike get a 20% boost to range and a 60% boost in Damage. What trade off is that?????????
Yurii Chan	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:22:00 - [29] Originally by: Lt Angus Do you even play EVE? clearly he doesnt and quite a few replies from other posters show that many really dont play.... its sad really, its like buying a ferrari and complaining that a formula 1 goes faster.. LIKE zOMGUbER!!! ffs, we already established that missiles are a completely different weapon system than guns (for starters they are by FAR easier to train for) so please ffs, dont bring that "oh but it takes 30 seconds for my missiles to even start their dmg"... you want to hit instantly? get a friend in a covops and warp in right on top of him. benefit is that he wont hit you for ****! as for the main damage reduction of guns coming from missed shots - please go and shoot a gun 1000 times. i can assure you the miss shots are the least of our worries since we have to roll a die per hit giving - miss, barely hit, hit, excellent and wreck (wreck being RARE in most cases) whereas missiles hit for (usually) hit hit hit hit hit. (usually because yes target size and velocity can fubar this but same goes for turrets. trust me if you cant hit a ship going 5km/s, us turret users can either unless that 5km/s pilot is a complete tard flying straight at us) - sorry angus i've quoted you but most of the rest of my post is directed at the noob alt and some others.
Hank Showbo Neyi Industries	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:25:00 - [30] Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Montero Gun damage does indeed vary with range, as longer ranged ammo does less damage. did you even read my post Iron charge vs Spike. Spike get a 20% boost to range and a 60% boost in Damage. What trade off is that????????? Spike also gives a penalty of 0.25 tracking, so tracking is reduced by 75% too.

Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:27:00 - [31] Edited by: Lab Ratta on 19/05/2007 10:26:06 Originally by: Hank Showbo Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Montero Gun damage does indeed vary with range, as longer ranged ammo does less damage. did you even read my post Iron charge vs Spike. Spike get a 20% boost to range and a 60% boost in Damage. What trade off is that????????? Spike also gives a penalty of 0.25 tracking, so tracking is reduced by 75% too. yes but if you are shooting from 250km how fast would the target need to move to hurt your tracking? Much faster than a Battleship can ever dream of going.
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:32:00 - [32] I actually tried doing some charts for myown use comparing missiles and they didn't get nerfed - they got balanced... now each missile has its uses - unfortunately its still not balanced completely but much better than before. Most of the nerf at missiles was T2 missiles and guns took about the same nerf as well... Missiles do go too slow though... make them fly at half the duration for double the speed. Should at least help a little in ranged combat. And torpedoes could really need the boost - using them is more or less a guarantee never to hit anything moderately fast - I'm a nice guy!! and OMG I love Team Tuxford for the speedbalancing...
Ryo Jang Central Defiance Terror In The System	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:32:00 - [33] Originally by: Lab Ratta Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects. ahahahahahaha!!! first time ive ever heard anyone complain about missiles damage types. didnt you realise you can PICK which damage type you want to use? ie, tailor your damage output to which ever tank you are facing? what are us turret types supposed to do except wail away against a potentially unbreakable tank?
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:39:00 - [34] Originally by: Ryo Jang Originally by: Lab Ratta Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects. ahahahahahaha!!! first time ive ever heard anyone complain about missiles damage types. didnt you realise you can PICK which damage type you want to use? ie, tailor your damage output to which ever tank you are facing? what are us turret types supposed to do except wail away against a potentially unbreakable tank? Bah they thought of everything for you they gave us missiles that do more damage and fly 77% less distance while giving you 20% rang and 60% damage at the same time. Oh and as for the unbreakable tank....-30% to cap recharge FTW
Yurii Chan	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:46:00 - [35] Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Ryo Jang Originally by: Lab Ratta Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects. ahahahahahaha!!! first time ive ever heard anyone complain about missiles damage types. didnt you realise you can PICK which damage type you want to use? ie, tailor your damage output to which ever tank you are facing? what are us turret types supposed to do except wail away against a potentially unbreakable tank? Bah they thought of everything for you they gave us missiles that do more damage and fly 77% less distance while giving you 20% rang and 60% damage at the same time. Oh and as for the unbreakable tank....-30% to cap recharge FTW ok, since you seem to lack the basic logic to figure things out let me try and argue like you OMFG, Spike ammo deals 40% less dmg than antimatter! 40%!!!!!!! and all we get is a lousy 60% range bonus!!!! like OMfG wTf BalANceE!!!! stop comparing the 2, they're different weapon systems. you want to hit @ 240km? fit for it and deal with the dmg delay or train for a rokh. You're tired of getting hit from 240km for dmg that cant even break a noob tank? warp out. You want to kill the bugger? look to point 1 and have the lamest duel ever (2 battleship slugging it out @ 240km borefest ftw) now please, start playing the game and stop spewing your ignorance on the boards. OR come up with a better argument. ----
Marquis Dean Demise and Vestige 9th Fleet	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:48:00 - [36] This thread made me chuckle. --- Originally by: korrey Marquis I have to admit, without you there wouldn't be much laughter in these forums.
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:49:00 - [37] Edited by: Max Hardcase on 19/05/2007 10:46:47 Originally by: Montero Originally by: Max Hardcase If there is one bit I have to agree with is that the delayed damage is a tad extreme. Double missile speed, halve flight time. Go and look up the patch notes for Cold War ;) I would but I'm lazy, you want me to read something; you give me the linkee
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:49:00 - [38] Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Yurii Chan Originally by: Lab Ratta so far all the post are avoiding the facts. so I guess this will just get the usually gun-bunnies hoping that noone will read it and nerf this overpowering gun slant that is taking over the game. sorry we're all sitting here laughing our asses off at some of your 'facts'. frankly i dont know wtf you're asking or wanting. you want your missiles to hit further? use T1.. they go quite far last i checked. Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects. While I hate feeding the troll, you hinting at missiles doing just one damage type being a BAD thing just makes you even more clueless than the rest of your arguments. Besides, did it ever occur to you that fleet combat and shuttle sniping is far from the be-all end-all of PvP? Even though I would not mind a missile velocity increase, they DO work in small gang fights at <30km ranges... - Thank you SkyFlyer! There is no 'n' in turret
Yurii Chan	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:50:00 - [39] Originally by: Marquis Dean This thread made me chuckle. god you took long enough to get here. ffs flame out this troll!!!!!
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:57:00 - [40] Missiles still have silly speed compared to the sips they're being shot @. Interceptors outrunning light missiles

Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:02:00 - [41] Originally by: Yurii Chan Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Ryo Jang Originally by: Lab Ratta Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects. ahahahahahaha!!! first time ive ever heard anyone complain about missiles damage types. didnt you realise you can PICK which damage type you want to use? ie, tailor your damage output to which ever tank you are facing? what are us turret types supposed to do except wail away against a potentially unbreakable tank? Bah they thought of everything for you they gave us missiles that do more damage and fly 77% less distance while giving you 20% rang and 60% damage at the same time. Oh and as for the unbreakable tank....-30% to cap recharge FTW ok, since you seem to lack the basic logic to figure things out let me try and argue like you OMFG, Spike ammo deals 40% less dmg than antimatter! 40%!!!!!!! and all we get is a lousy 60% range bonus!!!! like OMfG wTf BalANceE!!!! stop comparing the 2, they're different weapon systems. you want to hit @ 240km? fit for it and deal with the dmg delay or train for a rokh. You're tired of getting hit from 240km for dmg that cant even break a noob tank? warp out. You want to kill the bugger? look to point 1 and have the lamest duel ever (2 battleship slugging it out @ 240km borefest ftw) now please, start playing the game and stop spewing your ignorance on the boards. OR come up with a better argument. ---- Do try to get your facts straight once in a while. This comparison you did is like apples and oranges but i will use your lopsided choices. Antimatter Vs Spike is a 130% increase in range I think its 50% less damage 28+20 for antimatter(guessing) vs the 16+16 for spike. But since you brought up amtimatter. Antimatter Vs Iron 28+20 vs 12+8 that is 69% damage reduction for that extra 110% range where 28+20 vs 16+16 is a 33% damage reduction for an extra 130% range numbers speak loudly this this should not have been done.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:05:00 - [42] Originally by: Max Hardcase Missiles still have silly speed compared to the sips they're being shot @. Interceptors outrunning light missiles I agree no ship should be able to go faster than a missile.
Car Wars adeptus gattacus Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:19:00 - [43] Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Max Hardcase Missiles still have silly speed compared to the sips they're being shot @. Interceptors outrunning light missiles I agree no ship should be able to go faster than a missile. I agree you should get a titan, with a missile based doomsday that need to target all its victims first. get a clue dude, go play wow
NOObbody Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:21:00 - [44] Omg i shot a Titan with TOERPEDoo and it didnt explode! WTF! --- I was sworn to absolute secrecy!
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:22:00 - [45] To the OP, I suggest you use this excel graph to become more familiar with how things actually work in Eve: Naughty Boys excel spreadsheet You can play with range and all sorts of things. Guns sucks at medium range compared to missiles when counting in dps. Missiles lack alpha strike, sure, but their dps is much higher than railguns and artillery for example. See for yourself. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:28:00 - [46] I just want equal footing for a missile boat. why should it be that if you want to pvp you have to re-train completly into guns to be effective. Variety is the spice of life and if you have all your choices made for you it becomes dull and meaningless. I think someone that went all drone skills should have a fair chance at winning a battle against a missile boat or a gun-ship also. This isnt so much a anti-gun campaign as it is a thread that wants more variety and viable ones at that.
Sinder Ohm Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:32:00 - [47] OOOHHNNOOOS the people in teh noob help channel lied to me Originally by: Rawne Karrde PVP in EvE is consentual, you agree to it when you login. If you don't like it you're in the wrong game.
HEINZ ZERO PsyCorp INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:36:00 - [48] Edited by: HEINZ ZERO on 19/05/2007 11:36:47 ...guys here I have some DPS numbers (calculations made with beta23v5_kali excel damage calculator) All ships with 3 Damage Mods; Skills are Maxed; T2 long range Ammo for Turret users; T1 Ammo for Missile Ships; All turret ships have 2 tracking computers II (yeah thats not fair, the missile ship don¦t need this -> so they have 2!!! more slots for tanking or E-war) DPS @ Raven Rokh Maelstrom Abaddon 100km 450 321 380 465 150km 450 321 367 393 200km 450 321 104 0 250km 450 321 0 0 Raven with T2 cruise Launcher Rokh woth T2 425mm Railguns Maelstrom with T2 1400mm Arty Abaddon with T2 Megabeams
NOObbody Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:37:00 - [49] Originally by: Lab Ratta I think someone that went all drone skills should have a fair chance at winning a battle against a missile boat or a gun-ship also. . Oh right drone boats are gimped too, boost them already plz! --- I was sworn to absolute secrecy!
Kara Kaprica STK Scientific Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:39:00 - [50] Lab Ratta Your pulling your numbers out of your bottom. Missles are not worse than guns, nor are they better, they are DIFFERENT. You have an operational tradeoff of the way they work against guns so you have a CHOICE of using either guns or missles. If you dont think missles are good, use GUNS. Jesus. Boom Boom Boom.

Red Harvest	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:44:00 - [51] For something on the verge of extinction i have seen quite a lot of ravens doing the plexes/running missions or caracals and drakes in PvP lately.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:49:00 - [52] Originally by: HEINZ ZERO Edited by: HEINZ ZERO on 19/05/2007 11:38:03 ...guys here I have some DPS numbers (calculations made with beta23v5_kali excel damage calculator) All ships with 3 Damage Mods; Skills are Maxed; T2 long range Ammo for Turret users; T1 Ammo for Missile Ships; All turret ships have 2 tracking computers II (yeah thats not fair, the missile ship don¦t need this -> so they have 2!!! more slots for tanking or E-war) DPS @ Raven Rokh Maelstrom Abaddon 100km 450 321 380 465 150km 450 321 367 393 200km 450 321 104 0 250km 450 321 0 0 Raven with T2 cruise Launcher Rokh woth T2 425mm Railguns Maelstrom with T2 1400mm Arty Abaddon with T2 Megabeams This was a nice try but what you also forget is the simple fact guns fire faster than missiles....about 2 to 1.....so then using your numbers you see how gimped missile damage is.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:53:00 - [53] Originally by: Kara Kaprica Lab Ratta Your pulling your numbers out of your bottom. Missles are not worse than guns, nor are they better, they are DIFFERENT. You have an operational tradeoff of the way they work against guns so you have a CHOICE of using either guns or missles. If you dont think missles are good, use GUNS. Jesus. Listen to what you are saying. They are different. I like different but dont want to be gimped just because i want to fly a missile boat. Your right I have a choice right now be guns or be gimp. The choice i want is build a ship how i want to fight and have an equal chance that i can win a fight.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:54:00 - [54] Originally by: Lab Ratta This was a nice try but what you also forget is the simple fact guns fire faster than missiles....about 2 to 1.....so then using your numbers you see how gimped missile damage is. Damage per second takes rate of fire into account. Its a average value. So its accurate. His graph shows exactly how low dps turrets have at range. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 12:00:00 - [55] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Lab Ratta This was a nice try but what you also forget is the simple fact guns fire faster than missiles....about 2 to 1.....so then using your numbers you see how gimped missile damage is. Damage per second takes rate of fire into account. Its a average value. So its accurate. His graph shows exactly how low dps turrets have at range. I would be curious to see how a ship with 8 guns firing at twice the speed of the 6 missile launchers would put out less damage. Cause i really think if missile boats were the powerhouse he described why would everyone want to pvp in gun-ships?
vostok	Posted - 2007.05.19 12:03:00 - [56] Originally by: Lab Ratta I just want equal footing for a missile boat. why should it be that if you want to pvp you have to re-train completly into guns to be effective. Variety is the spice of life and if you have all your choices made for you it becomes dull and meaningless. I think someone that went all drone skills should have a fair chance at winning a battle against a missile boat or a gun-ship also. This isnt so much a anti-gun campaign as it is a thread that wants more variety and viable ones at that. ROFLMFAO omg this thread is priceless :D i cant believe you really believe what you are saying lab but anyways as far as ''why should it be that if you want to pvp you have to re-train completly into guns to be effective.'' is concerned, i dont know if you have been living under a rock or something but have you not heard people moaning constantly about how overpowered the raven and other missile boats are for PVE. some ships are better than others for different things, raven will never be the best pvp ship because of the shield tank and lack of EW anyway but its still one of the best mission runners going. then again for fleet battles raven is useful since you dont have any range you need to be at, (which btw matters a lot for turrets and in the middle of battle the time taken to change ammo is valuble). but anyways PLEASE STOP POSTING. you lose already!
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.05.19 12:05:00 - [57] Edited by: Max Hardcase on 19/05/2007 12:04:31 Originally by: Car Wars Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Max Hardcase Missiles still have silly speed compared to the sips they're being shot @. Interceptors outrunning light missiles I agree no ship should be able to go faster than a missile. I agree you should get a titan, with a missile based doomsday that need to target all its victims first. get a clue dude, go play wow Well all Missiles is a tad extreme, but light missiles or rockets, then certainly no. Keep in mind there still is the explosion speed damage reduction.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 12:08:00 - [58] Originally by: Max Hardcase Edited by: Max Hardcase on 19/05/2007 12:04:31 Originally by: Car Wars Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Max Hardcase Missiles still have silly speed compared to the sips they're being shot @. Interceptors outrunning light missiles I agree no ship should be able to go faster than a missile. I agree you should get a titan, with a missile based doomsday that need to target all its victims first. get a clue dude, go play wow Well all Missiles is a tad extreme, but light missiles or rockets, then certainly no. Keep in mind there still is the explosion speed damage reduction. Nice cross post troll
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.19 12:09:00 - [59] Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Lab Ratta This was a nice try but what you also forget is the simple fact guns fire faster than missiles....about 2 to 1.....so then using your numbers you see how gimped missile damage is. Damage per second takes rate of fire into account. Its a average value. So its accurate. His graph shows exactly how low dps turrets have at range. I would be curious to see how a ship with 8 guns firing at twice the speed of the 6 missile launchers would put out less damage. Cause i really think if missile boats were the powerhouse he described why would everyone want to pvp in gun-ships? Because guns have higher dps when you are close. Missiles have higher dps at range. Let me draw you a picture: sniper dps There you go. Now please admit that you are wrong. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Arakidias Murky Inc. Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.05.19 12:12:00 - [60] I'm a missile user myself. I can't even fit medium guns, so i'd love to see missile velocity increased. But if they don't nothing's broken, guns and missiles both have their uses.

Koryvarn Amarr Fleet Of Elite The OSS	Posted - 2007.05.19 12:16:00 - [61] No one has mentioned skill points. You need what, 3 times the amount of SP in Gunnery for T2 large guns, than you need compared to T2 Cruise missiles? Missiles are like drones - secondary DPS tools. Guns were always the primary tool.
Susan Acid Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.19 12:57:00 - [62] Erm..you're Caldari.Your primary damage is missiles. If you want to do instant damage at long range buy a Rokh. And where did you get 400km from?
xDaKewlGuyx	Posted - 2007.05.19 13:34:00 - [63] Stop responding to the OP, this is an obvious troll.
Broska Shadow Blades	Posted - 2007.05.19 13:42:00 - [64] This thread is the greatest ever posted. Thank you to the OP, I've not laugh'd that hard for a while. And on the ontopic part, Your clearly an Idiot. ------------------------------ Originally by: Tovarishch flying a Scorp into a fleet battle is like parking a pink moped in front of a biker bar - you will die... quickly.
Gorros Sons of Tyr	Posted - 2007.05.19 13:48:00 - [65] Well, apart from the OP having hardly any idea what he is talking about, missiles need love indeed. It is true that missiles are still great for PVE, but lets be honest, turrets and drones are almost as good in the hands of a decent player - and even better than missiles in the hands of a veteran. Still, lets say that missiles are still better at PVE, just for the sake of it. However, in PVP missiles have rather big disadvantages. The damage is lower than your typical turrets' is, but thats ok due to the fact that well... (only) the raven and the phoon are able to field all kinds of damage types. The thing making missiles unatractive is the lack of instant damage. But there are actually two things making up this problem: 1. The inability to hit interceptors: to be more precise the inablitity of light missiles to do sensible damage on very fast moving targets (increase explosion speed and travelling speed a bit). However, a precision cruise missile (disregarding the fact its called precision) isnt meant to strike ceptors, it is designed to take out cruisers, its explosion speed should be decreased) 2. Now the other thing: inability to snipe with missiles. Lets face it, most blob combat is taking place at ranges of 100+ km, so there should not be any dispute that missiles have a rather big disadvantage of traversing these range in sensible time, and that most targets can warp off before the storm begins. Now, there are several ways to fix this. The first would be doubling - maybe even trippling - missile speeds, while reducing flight time. This i'd consider rather boring, since then we could just turn missiles into the 4th turret class. But there is also an alternative: Reintroduce missile damage after the the person firing them has warped off/been killed. This in my oppinion would give missiles the long lost edge to compete in real PVP again. It would deepen the concept of missiles and reintroduce some direly needed depth in strategy.
Jintoi	Posted - 2007.05.19 14:36:00 - [66] 250km is the max lock range in EvE guns cant shoot 400km.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.19 15:06:00 - [67] Edited by: Aramendel on 19/05/2007 15:11:20 Originally by: Lab Ratta I would be curious to see how a ship with 8 guns firing at twice the speed of the 6 missile launchers would put out less damage. Because they do less damage per shot. Seriously, look at the stats. Calculating dps is extremly simple, it's grade school math. One t2 425mm rail has a damage mod of 3.3 and a ROF of 9.56. Spike L does 32 damage. Combine that and you get a base dps of 11.05. Then add skills to that: 11.05 * 1.25 (large hybrids) * 1.15 (surgical strike) * 1.1 (large rail spec) / 0.9 (gunnery) / 0.8 (rapid fire) -> and we get 24.26 dps per gun. Now lets use them on a mega with a 25% damage bonus and 7 gun slots: 24.26 * 1.25 * 7 -> 212.27 dps. With 3 damage mods this gets increased by around 65% to 350 dps. Now, a cruise missile launcher 2 has a ROF of 17.6 sec. One cruise missle does 300 damage. Gives us a base dps of 17.05. With skills: 17.05 * 1.25 (cruise missiles) * 1.10 (warhead upgrades) / 0.9 (missile launcher op) / 0.85 (rapid launch) / 0.9 (cruise missile spec) -> 34.04 dps per launcher. On a raven with the 25% ROF bonus and 6 launchers: 34.04 / 0.75 * 6 -> 272.33 dps. With 3 damage mods 449 dps. Check the numbers then post. Just sprouting completly wrong stuff will only get you rediculed. Originally by: Gorros But there is also an alternative: Reintroduce missile damage after the the person firing them has warped off/been killed. Relatively useless because their target will be also dead/warped off in most cases. You could make them reaquiring new targets automatically, of cource, but that wouldn't do much in terms of focussed fire. The thing is really that if you would reduce/cancel the "delayed damage" of missiles you would have to nerf their dps considerably. Because that is WAY above that of any sniper setups.
Jacob Holland Gallente FIRMA	Posted - 2007.05.19 17:55:00 - [68] Edited by: Jacob Holland on 19/05/2007 17:58:10 Originally by: Lab Ratta Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects. Cataclysm Cruise Missile: Velocity: 3750m/s Flight Time: 20 seconds Flight Time Increase from Missile Bombardment: 10 seconds Velocity Increase from Missile Projection: 1875m/s Velocity Increase from Raven: 2812.5m/s Final Velocity: 8437.5m/s Final Flight Time: 30 seconds Maximum range (theoretical): 253.152km Not only is this beyond the Hard lock cap but that is without modules - a missile can achieve that range without impairing tank or damage. Compare that to a 425 railgun II on a Rokh (without modules) 425mm Railgun II Optimal Range: 58km Falloff Range: 24km Increase to Optimal from Sharpshooter: 14.5km Increase to Optimal from Rokh: 36.25km Increase to Optimal from Spike L: 87km Increase to Falloff from Trajectory Analysis: 6km Maximum Range (theoretical): 225.75km Note that in order to achieve these ranges the Rokh pilot has to fit T2 (Proto Gauss would reduce the range to 200.25km) while the Raven pilot could fit base T1 without impairing his range. Now what was that you were saying about 150km maximum range on missiles? Would that be the 158.2km maximum range on Javelin Torps? The *Short Range* missile? Lasers have the longest range shortrange option so let's look at them... Mega Pulse Laser II Optimal Range: 24km Falloff Range: 8km Increase to Optimal for Sharpshooter: 6km Increase to Optimal for Scorch L: 15km Increase to Optimal for Radio L: 18km Increase to Falloff for Trajectory Analysis: 2km Maximum Range (theoretical): 58km Looks a bit measly compared to the Torps doesn't it? Especially when you consider that (in ideal conditions) the Torps deal significantly higher DPS... /emote puts out a large bucket labelled "Troll snacks" and retires to a safe distance. -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Talos Darkhart	Posted - 2007.05.19 17:56:00 - [69] Only problem I can see is why did the one race who cannot tackle and tank at the same time get stuck with the primary weapon that you can run away from meh go figure
Jacob Holland Gallente FIRMA	Posted - 2007.05.19 18:03:00 - [70] They didn't - assuming you're talking about the Caldari. They got Railguns. It's just that Missiles are easier and therefore very few Caldari bother training guns until they've maxed out their missile skills. -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.

000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.05.19 18:06:00 - [71] Got a problem with missiles? Take a passive tanked NH, orbit ur enemy at 500mtrs (aka in his face), hit F1 to F6 and enjoy the show. BS? use furies for added damage, frig? use precision for added damage. Cruiser? well... not even gonna answer that. CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.19 18:10:00 - [72] And nevermind that if you fly faster than a missile no gunship will be able to hit you either (unless you fly striaght at/away from them). If any weaponsystem deserves to be called "let you fly away from it" it are drones. Cruise missile speed on a raven: 8428 m/s. Berserker heavy drone speed: 1575 m/s.
Talos Darkhart	Posted - 2007.05.19 18:13:00 - [73] Hmmmm if i remember correctly untill recently the caldari only had 1 combat battleship and it used missles (scorp doen't count it's not a combat ship just a giant floating bulls eye) pretty much all other cal ships are evenly split between missles and guns. except for the poor piles of junk like the raptor which have the travisty that is split bonuses ( and tbh that goes for most ships that have split dmg bonuses except the phoon on which it kinda works). oh and while my memory may be faulty i'm pretty sure one of the reasons given for the origanal missle nerf was there promotion to primary weapon status but seriously missles would have worked much better on Amour tanking ships.
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.05.19 18:16:00 - [74] Originally by: Montero Gun damage does indeed vary with range, as longer ranged ammo does less damage. Shots that land in Optimal, Falloff, and beyond Falloff, do not do the same amount of damage. The base damage may not change, but you're going to see mostly "light hits", "barely scratched" and whatnot for hits beyond Accuracy Falloff, with heavier and harder hits only coming in as you get into higher accuracy territory, then only the overdamage shots "Excellent" and "Perfect" within Optimal range. And lets not even get into the minimum range crap with the tracking speeds. I don't mind them for realism, so don't take this as a whine or a nerf call, but they're a certifiable pain in the ass in action. This is my sig, there are many others just like it. With me, my sig is worthless. Without (or with even) my sig, I am worthless...
Sean Drake Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.05.19 18:19:00 - [75] Originally by: Aramendel And nevermind that if you fly faster than a missile no gunship will be able to hit you either (unless you fly striaght at/away from them). If any weaponsystem deserves to be called "let you fly away from it" it are drones. Cruise missile speed on a raven: 8428 m/s. Berserker heavy drone speed: 1575 m/s. Well I have flown a vulture and if setup purely to snipe even with spike and it's tracking penelty your not going to miss many ceptors from 240km out but it's a moot point missles and most cadari are for PvE and occasional gangs. For solo and tbh pretty much any other type of PvP gal is the way to go luckily it's fairly easy to cross train over from cal.
Draconis Amarr Stronghold corp	Posted - 2007.05.19 18:43:00 - [76] Originally by: Max Hardcase If there is one bit I have to agree with is that the delayed damage is a tad extreme. Double missile speed, halve flight time. HAHA! If Missiles get any more overbalanced than turrets then EVERYONE will be back to flying Ravens and Drakes like a couple of years ago when Missiles required like 3 skills lol. I run Caldari and Amarr, mostly Caldari if I want to be able to tank and do Damage. I fly Caldari enough to have Caldari BS5 and I'm working on Battlecruisers 5 for the Drake. Missiles are overbalanced, you have the ability to hit smaller faster moving ships more consistantly and for better damage as well as hold a good if not great tank in comparison to the equal ship in a Turret class. And to put things on the table, I have all L5 Gunnery and L5 Missile skills and by far Missile boats are better. Put a Drake vs a Harbinger or Hurricane in a toe to toe. I garauntee the Drake will pump out almost the same damage and the Hurricane won't break the tank. In the same idea you put a Raven Vs an Apoc the Raven will easily win. I won't even get into Nos-Domi's. Missiles are just fine, actually they could use a bit more "tweaking" in the nerf department this coming from a missile user.
Aurael Drakewing Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.19 19:00:00 - [77] Originally by: Jim McGregor Because guns have higher dps when you are close. Missiles have higher dps at range. Let me draw you a picture: sniper dps There you go. Now please admit that you are wrong. Actually, Jim...the graph you linked shows the exact opposite. I think it's because you used Siege launchers instead of Cruise, so you're comparing a "short"-range weapon against sniper weapons...
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.19 19:17:00 - [78] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 19/05/2007 19:15:18 Originally by: Aurael Drakewing Originally by: Jim McGregor Because guns have higher dps when you are close. Missiles have higher dps at range. Let me draw you a picture: sniper dps There you go. Now please admit that you are wrong. Actually, Jim...the graph you linked shows the exact opposite. I think it's because you used Siege launchers instead of Cruise, so you're comparing a "short"-range weapon against sniper weapons... The "short range" missiles have higher damage and range than the long range turrets in this game, which is why i picked siege. But the numbers for t2 cruise missiles with 3 damage mods is 450 dps - up to 250 km range. As you can see in the graph, its still more than almost any long range gun turret can achieve (only abaddon makes it). So about 600 dps with torpedoes at 125 km away or 450 dps at 250 km away, depending on missiles. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Commander Thrawn Fluffy Rabbit Killers	Posted - 2007.05.19 20:14:00 - [79] Im must agree with the op you hardly see any ravens out there since missiles are so bad..... no wait OP you lose eve
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.05.19 20:48:00 - [80] Originally by: Commander Thrawn Im must agree with the op you hardly see any ravens out there since missiles are so bad..... no wait OP you lose eve You're trying to tell me you've seen Ravens being used in PvP by anyone who has an alternative? Colour me shocked.

NoNah	Posted - 2007.05.19 20:56:00 - [81] Edited by: NoNah on 19/05/2007 20:56:43 Figured, I for once should go with the op and compare, and actually accept the fact that t2 gun ammo is more versatile than t2 missiles. Now. So your t2 missiles, hit at say 100km?(At this point im really trying to go with you but theres simply no way you can claim that they deal less damage, precision missiles are awesome to anything the size of a BC, seriously, try breaking a passive drakes tank with any cruise but the prec's and youll se. But I allready promised I'd go with you, so lets just say they deal the same damage.) So 100km, and 300 damage per volley, about 17 sec RoF, 105 dps. Unskilled. Now lets compare to drones. 25 km drones(a total max of 60km, with absolute max skills), 16.56 damage per drone, 2 sec RoF, 5 drones. 41 dps at 25km. This is t2 for you. Now there are several ships who are usually flown with drones as their only offense. Dominix, Ishtar, ishkur, vexor, myrmid, curse... need I go on? Thus, yes, boost missiles, give them uhm, twice the range! And then, tripple the damage of drones and _atleast_ quadruple its range. Oh and NOS! I mean wtf! 25 km range? We need 200 _ATLEAST_! Nosdomis are horribly underpowered. Compared to all those gun and missileboats. =( Quote: You're trying to tell me you've seen Ravens being used in PvP by anyone who has an alternative? Colour me shocked. This really made me giggle, ever heard the name "Burn Eden"?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.19 21:50:00 - [82] Edited by: Aramendel on 19/05/2007 21:50:03 Originally by: James Lyrus You're trying to tell me you've seen Ravens being used in PvP by anyone who has an alternative? Colour me shocked. Try burn eden. Missile ships need something to hold their target down, like a dictor or large bubble, but when this is the case they are rewarded by the most superior longrange dps in the game. Remove that "need to tackle" disadvantage of missiles longrange you will need to nerf their dps. Or reduce the current missiles to around 10-30k range (with range ship boni) and introduce new low dps missiles with the current ranges. Quote: Missiles have severe limitiations for PvP, especially the 'fast' missiles, such as rockets - it's just silly that ceptors can outrun precisions, and ... well, rockets suffer from the problem that their range isn't enough. (By which I mean, if you're both flying at a few km/sec, a rocket will get left behind by both your ships) For rockets you really need to web your target, which is not really different for gun closerange ceptors. Which in general suck due to that. It's no rocket crow unique issue. FOr light missiles...yes, if they fly 8 km/s. Which nowadays certainly possible it requires for you to invest at least 200 mil on your ceptor. Not really the "common" setups. And in the 4-8 km/s area where the vaste majority of ceptors are in crows are superior in ceptor vs ceptor combat since their dps is not effected by tracking issues which are rather severe there. In the light of that I do not really think it's a big "imbalance" of them being "useless" vs the top pimped ceptors. Especially since their guns won't hit them at ALL at those speeds either. Asking for a buff there is simply not realizing the problems of other ships at these speeds.
Futuris Minmatar Nano Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.19 22:03:00 - [83] Edited by: Futuris on 19/05/2007 22:01:13 Originally by: Jacob Holland Mega Pulse Laser II Optimal Range: 24km Falloff Range: 8km Increase to Optimal for Sharpshooter: 6km Increase to Optimal for Scorch L: 15km Increase to Optimal for Radio L: 18km Increase to Falloff for Trajectory Analysis: 2km Maximum Range (theoretical): 58km Looks a bit measly compared to the Torps doesn't it? Especially when you consider that (in ideal conditions) the Torps deal significantly higher DPS... /emote puts out a large bucket labelled "Troll snacks" and retires to a safe distance. Raven, t2 siege, 3 damage mods: 618 dps Abaddon, megapulse II, scorch, 3 damage mods: 730 dps, 49km optimal before mods Last I checked, 618 is not "significantly higher" than 730. Also, gun range can be increased with tracking comps/enhancers - no such mod for missiles...
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.19 22:13:00 - [84] Edited by: Aramendel on 19/05/2007 22:11:57 Great. And now try it for the 80-120k range. (Battleship class) Missiles have superior dps from 80k on and weaker dps for less than 80k. And also nevermind that you are comparing an abaddon will cap out quite soon vs a raven which will not.
Jane Spondogolo NoobWaffe	Posted - 2007.05.19 22:19:00 - [85] At 200km , my main can knock any T1 cruiser off the battlefied in 2 or 3 volleys in a frigging manticore with T1 cruises (Wont actually work on T2 cruises- low flight time). Try that on any frigate with T1 or T2 with guns of any sort at any range. Or take a crow. What that thing does with missiles is obscene. Sure you can stick spike in a rail gun and match its range, but your damage will suck into almost worthlessness. Sure I get as irritated as the next guy at flight times. But thats the trade off for such violent weaponry. And yes, Im currently training T2 large rails, but thats only because I've kind of maxed most of the missile skills I think are interesting to me. ______ Unrepentant Southern Federation Cheerleader.
Jane Spondogolo NoobWaffe	Posted - 2007.05.19 22:22:00 - [86] Originally by: Talos Darkhart ](scorp doen't count it's not a combat ship just a giant floating bulls eye) ] And one of the most amazingly violent and survivable ships in the game if you know what your doing. That said, CCP *UN-NERF ECM!* ______ Unrepentant Southern Federation Cheerleader.
Futuris Minmatar Nano Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.19 22:33:00 - [87] Edited by: Futuris on 19/05/2007 22:32:09 Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 19/05/2007 22:20:43 Great. And now try it for the 80-120k range. (Battleship class) Missiles have superior dps from 80k on and weaker dps for less than 80k. And also nevermind that you are comparing an abaddon which will cap out quite soon vs a raven which will not. I agree with you (although a sniping abaddon will do slightly more dps than a raven with cruises I think - until he runs out of cap, that is ). I was just pointing out that the statement about megapulses having "significantly worse dps" than torps was a straight lie.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.19 22:36:00 - [88] You missed the "(in ideal conditions)" Obviously torps deal less dps at closer ranges, but when they can use their range advantage they are far superior-
Azirapheal Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.05.19 22:39:00 - [89] missiles advantages no cap to fire every flavour of damage with missile projection 5 they have very good range (and i created a noob with this) they NEVER MISS disadvantages damage is fairly set - no chance of a wrecking hit for that extra slice of damage t2 missiles arent brilliant - but at least it stops the crow from orbiting you at 12kms gun advantages insta damage wrecking hits disadvantages light hits MISSING Yarrr sig nerf - that picture was way too big. Please keep it under 24000 bytes. Thanks, Hango Hango touched me in the night I also stole all of your socks.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2007.05.19 22:53:00 - [90] Originally by: Futuris Edited by: Futuris on 19/05/2007 22:01:13 Originally by: Jacob Holland Mega Pulse Laser II Optimal Range: 24km Falloff Range: 8km Increase to Optimal for Sharpshooter: 6km Increase to Optimal for Scorch L: 15km Increase to Optimal for Radio L: 18km Increase to Falloff for Trajectory Analysis: 2km Maximum Range (theoretical): 58km Looks a bit measly compared to the Torps doesn't it? Especially when you consider that (in ideal conditions) the Torps deal significantly higher DPS... /emote puts out a large bucket labelled "Troll snacks" and retires to a safe distance. Raven, t2 siege, 3 damage mods: 618 dps Abaddon, megapulse II, scorch, 3 damage mods: 730 dps, 49km optimal before mods Last I checked, 618 is not "significantly higher" than 730. Also, gun range can be increased with tracking comps/enhancers - no such mod for missiles... this comparsion doesn't mean much... first the range should be 46km and not 49, at around 50km these ships have same dps (no drones) the you don't take in account some important factors... megapulse is a short range weapon, it have very good dps and range for a short range but the tradeoff is a severe cap usage (expecially on the abaddon that have not cap weapon bonus) that doesn't permit to fire continuosly for long time or need a "gimped" setup to be used well on the other hand torps use no cap, have full damage choice and can reach around 125km with normal and around 160km with javs (and here we start to enter in fleet/sniper range), the tradeoff of course is the "delayed" dmg that imo is more than justified by other stats another problem of pulse is tracking as it is quite low, it work well at such range but if other ships start to orbit outside webber range ir becomes a bit problematic if we take in account t2 ammos and gank the raven pilot have even the option to use rage torps if a comrade is using tp to paint the opponent... this option gives to the raven pilot a sustained dps comparable to the abaddon one up to 36km. finally the setup of the 2 ships... for the raven this is a normal setup with a strong shield tank and 3 dmg mods, for an abaddon instead to fit 3 dmg mods mean that you are going to armortank with 4 slots and probably the mid slots will be occuped by some cap rechargers/boosters too.. to close... ther's a reson why i don't like to use lasers for comparsion in my endless whining posts about arties... is because cap problems that need to be attressed by the ship setup and make it difficult to do a straight comparsion in a "sustained fire enviroment" with other weapons that have not such problems... it can be easy to grab a graph with lasers with uber dps/alpha or range but that's not a fair comparsion because the laser pilot have to fit his ship in a different way than a proj, rail or missile pilot (who is the one with less problems in the end) Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".

Jacob Holland Gallente FIRMA	Posted - 2007.05.19 23:10:00 - [91] Originally by: James Lyrus You're trying to tell me you've seen Ravens being used in PvP by anyone who has an alternative? Colour me shocked. Crystoph never used any other BS, and he's still FIRMA's top killer despite an absence of several months. Originally by: Futuris Raven, t2 siege, 3 damage mods: 618 dps Abaddon, megapulse II, scorch, 3 damage mods: 730 dps, 49km optimal before mods Last I checked, 618 is not "significantly higher" than 730. Also, gun range can be increased with tracking comps/enhancers - no such mod for missiles... Notice that Radio is longer range, and significantly lower DPS. Yes, there isn't much in it, a mere 2km, but still. And yes, Tracking Computers and enhancers will boost range - but try getting an Abaddon with Megapulses to 150km - they also take up slots which a Raven (which doesn't need them) can use for tank, EWar and damage. -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Zanarkand Gallente Enterprise Estonia Cult of War	Posted - 2007.05.19 23:17:00 - [92] Edited by: Zanarkand on 19/05/2007 23:19:40 Edited by: Zanarkand on 19/05/2007 23:18:25 I have Torps 5, after javelin nerf... I have used Siege 2 maybe once or twice. t1 torps are horrible, seriously. They have the good medium damage range, but that only really matters in PvE. Hard to fit(no mwd + heavy nosf) 600 dps is all nice and all, but look at sig radius and explosion velocity. 1/2 BSes get a default damage reduction when being fired by torps, looow exp velocity means that torps are easy to speed tank. The 150km thing is sooo overrated, veeeery rarely is that a practical function in pvp. Shooting a POS and/or capitals with small gangs at 100km range is about the only useful scenario I can imagine. The extra range isn't bad, but it is usually rather useless... Include the fact that torps aren't perfect with the awfulness of Raven... I can't really see a reason to use torp raven in pvp. Cruise is loow dps and doesn't exactly excel at anything either, good range dps without alpha and can't get a proper shieldtank. Gang setup with damps is nice in some situations... I suppose same could be said about other caldari missile ships... but I suppose same missile aren't horrible themselves, it just the awful concept of caldari med slot shield tank + missiles that has no place in pvp atm. Once damps get nerfed on non-specialist ships we will see even less "good" missile ships flying around.
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2007.05.20 01:33:00 - [93] Edited by: Happster on 20/05/2007 01:33:06 Originally by: Gorros Well, apart from the OP having hardly any idea what he is talking about, missiles need love indeed. It is true that missiles are still great for PVE, but lets be honest, turrets and drones are almost as good in the hands of a decent player - and even better than missiles in the hands of a veteran. Still, lets say that missiles are still better at PVE, just for the sake of it. However, in PVP missiles have rather big disadvantages. The damage is lower than your typical turrets' is, but thats ok due to the fact that well... (only) the raven and the phoon are able to field all kinds of damage types. The thing making missiles unatractive is the lack of instant damage. But there are actually two things making up this problem: 1. The inability to hit interceptors: to be more precise the inablitity of light missiles to do sensible damage on very fast moving targets (increase explosion speed and travelling speed a bit). However, a precision cruise missile (disregarding the fact its called precision) isnt meant to strike ceptors, it is designed to take out cruisers, its explosion speed should be decreased) 2. Now the other thing: inability to snipe with missiles. Lets face it, most blob combat is taking place at ranges of 100+ km, so there should not be any dispute that missiles have a rather big disadvantage of traversing these range in sensible time, and that most targets can warp off before the storm begins. Now, there are several ways to fix this. The first would be doubling - maybe even trippling - missile speeds, while reducing flight time. This i'd consider rather boring, since then we could just turn missiles into the 4th turret class. But there is also an alternative: Reintroduce missile damage after the the person firing them has warped off/been killed. This in my oppinion would give missiles the long lost edge to compete in real PVP again. It would deepen the concept of missiles and reintroduce some direly needed depth in strategy. You my friend seems to be forgetting a lot of stuff too ;) 1. You speak of your missiles not able to do sensible damage on very fast moving targets. Guess what. Guns doesnt either. This has to do with tracking and transversal velocity. The difference here between guns and missiles is guns doesnt hit at all, but your missiles actually do some damage. 2. Missiles doesnt snipe very well. But so what? Everything in this game has its role. One thing isnt supose to be good at everything. Missiles are good in all areas except sniping. To make missiles good in sniping too, would just put things out of balance. 3. If you want to be a sniper, train gunnery and get a Rohk and outsnipe everyone! 4. Please dont try to fix something thats not broken. As i said in #2, everything in eve has its role. Its place and its use. So if you want to fly raven and missiles go do missions, ratt, or even pvp in small gangs. You will be uber in doing that. 5. First that comes to my mind when reading about raven / missile ppl wanting their stuff to do better in new areas is that you have it too easy. Your not used to work for your stuff to do well. Im flying a minnie, and you will out damage and out tank me any day in your raven with torps. That is if you actually use your brain to set it up right. But hey, im not whining.
Spacer John	Posted - 2007.05.20 02:31:00 - [94] ---"Great. And now try it for the 80-120k range. (Battleship class) Missiles have superior dps from 80k on and weaker dps for less than 80k. And also nevermind that you are comparing an abaddon which will cap out quite soon vs a raven which will not."--- So missiles do good dps vs guns, but only at a range where missiles are almost useless due to travel time? I have very limited gun experience so I can't say whether missiles need a boost or not. I've heard a general consesus on the boards that guns do more damage in most PVP situations (close range, and instant dmg long range where missiles hit a primary long dead when they arrive). Sounds to me like the main balancer for missiles' lower DPS is the fact that they don't use cap, which should allow for a better tank passive or active. So: Missiles = lower DPS / allows better Tank Guns = higher DPS / restricts Tank somewhat? If these are the main qualifiers for each weapon system, the question is, does the more cap missiles allow for balance out the higher DPS guns put out?
Spacer John	Posted - 2007.05.20 02:59:00 - [95] ---"2. Missiles doesnt snipe very well. But so what? Everything in this game has its role. One thing isnt supose to be good at everything. Missiles are good in all areas except sniping. To make missiles good in sniping too, would just put things out of balance."--- I understand role very well, missiles are not good at sniping... check. Where is the balance then, if guns out DPS missiles at closer range? What are missiles role? I'm not whining about missiles, I just see alot of fallible arguments and am curious. The main role I see missiles filling are as no cap weapons, please list more roles I am missing (I don't count ease of use as a true combat role for the missile). The argument that missiles do damage with every hit is inconsequential if guns do more damage over time then missiles do. The only scenario where I can see missiles hitting everytime being a real plus would be if 2 ships that could kill each other in 1 hit started at 0km. This way the missile would have no travel time, and the gun might miss its first shot. Other than that it is average DPS over time that matters. When gun DPS is listed does it take into account misses as well as wreaking shots? If it doesn't has anyone done any research to find out whether wreaking shots balance out the misses and near misses at optimal range? out of optimal range? Seems to me this information would be essential in a debate like this. It's too bad missiles don't take longer to train up for in the way guns do. I'd gladly train for longer to have a more effective weapon system in the long run. This argument is also bad as a reason missiles should do less damage. Different training paths in EVE should be different, but have roughly equal effectiveness at its top SP peak. That is my personal opinion though. Doesn't seem fair to have to train one skill path, then switch and start over, then train that path all the way up to get maximum effectiveness out of your weapons. I am the type of player that never creates alts in MMOs. I hate starting over, so yeah I'd be bitter if it turns out missile path leads to an inferior weapon system than gunnery and I had to switch over and train up from scratch in guns. So I sincerely hope the OP is wrong.
Trisha Banks Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.05.20 03:32:00 - [96] Originally by: Jacob Holland Edited by: Jacob Holland on 19/05/2007 17:58:10 Originally by: Lab Ratta Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects. Cataclysm Cruise Missile: Velocity: 3750m/s Flight Time: 20 seconds Flight Time Increase from Missile Bombardment: 10 seconds Velocity Increase from Missile Projection: 1875m/s Velocity Increase from Raven: 2812.5m/s Final Velocity: 8437.5m/s Final Flight Time: 30 seconds Maximum range (theoretical): 253.152km Not only is this beyond the Hard lock cap but that is without modules - a missile can achieve that range without impairing tank or damage. Compare that to a 425 railgun II on a Rokh (without modules) 425mm Railgun II Optimal Range: 58km Falloff Range: 24km Increase to Optimal from Sharpshooter: 14.5km Increase to Optimal from Rokh: 36.25km Increase to Optimal from Spike L: 87km Increase to Falloff from Trajectory Analysis: 6km Maximum Range (theoretical): 225.75km Note that in order to achieve these ranges the Rokh pilot has to fit T2 (Proto Gauss would reduce the range to 200.25km) while the Raven pilot could fit base T1 without impairing his range. Now what was that you were saying about 150km maximum range on missiles? Would that be the 158.2km maximum range on Javelin Torps? The *Short Range* missile? Lasers have the longest range shortrange option so let's look at them... Mega Pulse Laser II Optimal Range: 24km Falloff Range: 8km Increase to Optimal for Sharpshooter: 6km Increase to Optimal for Scorch L: 15km Increase to Optimal for Radio L: 18km Increase to Falloff for Trajectory Analysis: 2km Maximum Range (theoretical): 58km Looks a bit measly compared to the Torps doesn't it? Especially when you consider that (in ideal conditions) the Torps deal significantly higher DPS... /emote puts out a large bucket labelled "Troll snacks" and retires to a safe distance. lolzors. Lets put up a situation. Lets assume that our raven pilot would use T2 cruise, even though they are unnecessary. Roughly 8s rof and single volley damage of 3k (375 dps, two BCS IIon a max-skill raven). An equally max-skilled megathron(2xmfs II, 425II's, 180km opt) comes up as 5.6srof, with a single volley of 1575. missile speeds comes to 8k/s, 22.5s for first hit at 180km. After 5.6s: Raven: takes 1575damage Gunship: takes 0 damage after 11.2s: Raven: takes 3150 damage Gunship: takes 0 damage after 16.8s: Raven: Takes 4725 damage Gunship: takes 0 damage after 22.5s: Raven: Takes 6300 damage Gunship: Takes 3000 damage Continuing on: After 46s: Raven: Takes 12600 damage ( 8 volleys landed) Gunship: Takes 12000 damage ( 4 volleys landed) So, its taken 45s for a raven to catch up to a megathron in damage with its "uber" dps. If your firing at any target for less than 45s(like, in a sniper gang?) the guns are a much better choice. Every time the sniper raven switches targets, they leave a 20-30seccond gap in their dps. I'm still impressed anyone argues that missiles are better because they have more dps at range. missiles do have other benefits, but in the end they are a middle of the road approach, and as you mentioned do best in mid-ranged engagements(seem to happen most in large 50vs50 or bigger gate battles) Blasters out-shine them on the close range(maybee lasers too, never used em), everyone outshines them at sniping. For falling asleep in a mission with faction perma-tank and FOF missiles(lazy mans no-targeting necessary)? now were talking about what the raven is good at. Trisha
BillLee Gallente FM Corp Insomnia.	Posted - 2007.05.20 04:50:00 - [97] Originally by: Trisha Banks stuff Well if you must use a missile-boat in fleet ops how about adjusting your strategies? How about... shoot the secondary target? that way your missiles reach it by the time primary is dead.
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.20 05:15:00 - [98] I'm not sure if the OP should be nominated for "tool of the year" or "troller of the year". PS: Don't post about my lack of reasons ... it's not like you didn't ignore everything you were told. -------------------------------------------------- http://dojo.fi/~rancid/loituma__.swfAlways look on the bright side
Evil Pookie BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.05.20 05:16:00 - [99] name them and they shall come......
Cadiz Caldari No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.05.20 05:42:00 - [100] Edited by: Cadiz on 20/05/2007 05:41:15 Originally by: Lab Ratta Maybe look down the list a bit your ammo is called Tremor. It has same effect 20% range enhance and 60% more damage for no real negative. I was unaware that -75% tracking counted as "no real negative". And if you think that having your tracking chopped down by 3/4ths doesn't matter at 150 - 180km, you're dead bloody wrong. ------ Director, No Quarter "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the judicious application of violence."

Trisha Banks Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.05.20 05:59:00 - [101] Originally by: BillLee Originally by: Trisha Banks stuff Well if you must use a missile-boat in fleet ops how about adjusting your strategies? How about... shoot the secondary target? that way your missiles reach it by the time primary is dead. i would never use a missile boat in fleet ops, obviously since you dont believe missiles belong in fleet engagements you agree that they are crappy snipers just like me. Point made. Trisha
Alaron Giancol Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.05.20 07:29:00 - [102] Have missiles (+ rockets and torpedoes) accelerate while in flight, thus reducing the extreme range damage delay, while keeping their flight characteristics similar at short to medium range. The acceleration should probably be greater for straight flights vs maneuvering flights, to favor sniping situations over closer range vs fast ships. Thats my 2isk fix. ---

Jacques Archambault Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.05.20 07:56:00 - [103] Thread cleaned. Whilst many of you may be in disagreement with the OP, please keep your replies polite and constructive. Its okay to disagree, but please be civil about it. forum rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website!

Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2007.05.20 08:22:00 - [104] Originally by: Spacer John ---"2. Missiles doesnt snipe very well. But so what? Everything in this game has its role. One thing isnt supose to be good at everything. Missiles are good in all areas except sniping. To make missiles good in sniping too, would just put things out of balance."--- I understand role very well, missiles are not good at sniping... check. Where is the balance then, if guns out DPS missiles at closer range? What are missiles role? I'm not whining about missiles, I just see alot of fallible arguments and am curious. The main role I see missiles filling are as no cap weapons, please list more roles I am missing (I don't count ease of use as a true combat role for the missile). The argument that missiles do damage with every hit is inconsequential if guns do more damage over time then missiles do. The only scenario where I can see missiles hitting everytime being a real plus would be if 2 ships that could kill each other in 1 hit started at 0km. This way the missile would have no travel time, and the gun might miss its first shot. Other than that it is average DPS over time that matters. When gun DPS is listed does it take into account misses as well as wreaking shots? If it doesn't has anyone done any research to find out whether wreaking shots balance out the misses and near misses at optimal range? out of optimal range? Seems to me this information would be essential in a debate like this. It's too bad missiles don't take longer to train up for in the way guns do. I'd gladly train for longer to have a more effective weapon system in the long run. This argument is also bad as a reason missiles should do less damage. Different training paths in EVE should be different, but have roughly equal effectiveness at its top SP peak. That is my personal opinion though. Doesn't seem fair to have to train one skill path, then switch and start over, then train that path all the way up to get maximum effectiveness out of your weapons. I am the type of player that never creates alts in MMOs. I hate starting over, so yeah I'd be bitter if it turns out missile path leads to an inferior weapon system than gunnery and I had to switch over and train up from scratch in guns. So I sincerely hope the OP is wrong. 1. Missiles has its role as i said in the previouse post of mine. Plex, Ratting, Missions, and small gang pvp. And if you think your missiles do less dps then guns, you have your facts wrong. If you compare it to the blasterthrone, maybe it does. But so does everyone else. Do a check vs the AC's. You will find missiles on top in that comparation. 2. Raven has the abillity to fit both tank and gank. That my friend is one of the few ships in eve that can do that well. 3. DPS for guns are calculated in perfect enviroment. Something you never see on the battlefield. The true dps will allways be worse. 4. We dont want a ship that is a i win button. Seems you do ;) 5. Wrecking shots is like 1 out of 1k shots. So its far from a common hit. As i said. You will come on top of any minmatar BS with a rave. In both tank and gank. Raven has a role in all places in eve, except for in a sniper fleet. Get over it. You will not get it all.
Cyrstal	Posted - 2007.05.20 08:57:00 - [105] If anything missles need to be nerfed a little more imho. Even Farjung had to bug out of a fight with a torp Raven in his Vindi and still people think they are no good for pvp. Come on guys you want jam with that or what.
Evil Pookie BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.05.20 09:20:00 - [106] (sarcasm mode on) Because noone could beat farjung without using unbalanced game mechanics. (sarcasm mode off)
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.20 09:56:00 - [107] Edited by: Aramendel on 20/05/2007 09:57:51 Originally by: Spacer John So missiles do good dps vs guns, but only at a range where missiles are almost useless due to travel time? No. It means that missiles need something to hold their target, mobile/interdictor bubble or tackler and have in exchange considerably higher range dps than other weapons. And this is exactly the tactic corps like Burn Eden are using. A dictor and a few "sniper" ravens. And, unless you are talking about big fleet battles or popping shuttles you need a tackling strategy for gun-snipers as well because they won't kill much otherwise.
Gabriel Karade Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.20 10:58:00 - [108] I think missiles have lost too far too much of their distinctness over the last couple of years, being gradually turned into the 'fourth turret'. It's a real shame, because you used to see them regularly used as secondary weapons resulting in more varied setups. These days everyone just simply fits the maximum number of turrets, and then slaps nosferatu in the 'spare' slots. I would say they need: a) A decent damage boost, whilst removing launcher RoF bonuses, so that they are suitable as secondary weapons again (large payload, big bang, slow RoF) but without turning all-out missile platforms into the best thing since sliced bread. b)Variation in warheads, from AoE weapons, to the equivalent of shaped charge versions, to different levels of damage vs. missile velocity (i.e. very fast, but small payload vs. large payload, but slow). ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2007.05.20 11:27:00 - [109] I'm going to have to disagree with the op on his statement where missile boats are on the verge of extinction. I did not read the whole thread, however if you are worried about ravens becoming extinct, head on down to your local mission hub, Motsu/Aramachi and you will see about 10,000 chinese ravens. 99% of mission farmers, use ravens to do missions. Why? Because ravens are the best for PVE. Because missiles can do a lot of damage with little skills. Because missiles pretty much always hit unless your out of range. Oh and the raven can tank. Missiles hit at 0KM just as good at 200KM. Try that with a turret. What I do think should happen however, is T2 ammo and missiles needs to be made useful. Increase the damage, remove the penalties. Drastically increase the cost. The penalty should be they are EXPENSIVE to use.
Technolisa Amarr Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.05.20 11:42:00 - [110] Just give Precision type missiles a boost of speed , so the light version can do some dmg to ultra fast ships and the bigger version can reach their target in fleet fight before u die.

JoCool Caldari kleptomaniacs	Posted - 2007.05.20 11:57:00 - [111] I'd just like to point out that the general assumption of missiles doing the same damage at 5km or 200km is wrong. It is such a popular argument but simply wrong. Missiles suffer from range because the time of the engagement is not infinite. The shorter the fight and the longer the range, the more dps missiles lose. Simple as that, have a nice day. _______________________________________________________________________ Trey Azagthoth > Youre my idol Jocool. I wanna be like Jocool jr. or Jocool the sequel! Oveur > ohnoes jocool
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.05.20 12:02:00 - [112] Edited by: d026 on 20/05/2007 12:02:41 Quote: Missiles = lower DPS / allows better Tank Guns = higher DPS / restricts Tank somewhat? If these are the main qualifiers for each weapon system, the question is, does the more cap missiles allow for balance out the higher DPS guns put out? I was worried about this myself alot. So after calculating in quickfit i came to the conclusion that i would lose most of the fights in my raven. But i didnt want to believe this so i went to the testserver and fought against my mates tII blaster domi, nos domi,tII blaster mega, tII neutron blaster and dual cap injected hyperion. the funny thing was i won all the fights except the fight against the nos domi. in all other fights my mate capped out even with 2 injectors. so at the end i have to say missiles/vs turrets are extremely balanced, at least at close range. the better tank makes up for the slight less dps.
Meha Mott Minmatar Carebear Research and Produktion Agency	Posted - 2007.05.20 12:09:00 - [113] First of all, sorry for my bad english. After i saw this : Originally by: Lab Ratta -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Oh and since the gunboats are shooting from 400km" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- and this Originally by: Lab Ratta -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Only 2 questions are remaining for me: 1) What did you smoke ? and much more important for me 2) From where can i get it ?
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.20 20:32:00 - [114] Originally by: Jane Spondogolo At 200km , my main can knock any T1 cruiser off the battlefied in 2 or 3 volleys in a frigging manticore with T1 cruises (Wont actually work on T2 cruises- low flight time). Try that on any frigate with T1 or T2 with guns of any sort at any range. Or take a crow. What that thing does with missiles is obscene. Sure you can stick spike in a rail gun and match its range, but your damage will suck into almost worthlessness. Sure I get as irritated as the next guy at flight times. But thats the trade off for such violent weaponry. And yes, Im currently training T2 large rails, but thats only because I've kind of maxed most of the missile skills I think are interesting to me. This is kind of funny if the missiles are such be all for damage WHY are all these caldari training for 425 rails. Ill tell you why....Missiles suck completely as they are now. Which is why I am up to medium T2 rails already and large are around the corner and it really ****es me off that i needed to leave missiles to be effective in PVP.
Chr0nosX The Good Fellas The Imperial Order	Posted - 2007.05.20 20:38:00 - [115] Yeah guns rule! I scanned down a drake in an asteriod belt and warped in and Two shot him with my Megathron from 400km with my T1 75mm rails! I was like "lolz noob" and he was like "nerf gunz lol"
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.20 20:50:00 - [116] Originally by: Happster Edited by: Happster on 20/05/2007 01:33:06 You my friend seems to be forgetting a lot of stuff too ;) 1. You speak of your missiles not able to do sensible damage on very fast moving targets. Guess what. Guns doesnt either. This has to do with tracking and transversal velocity. The difference here between guns and missiles is guns doesnt hit at all, but your missiles actually do some damage. 2. Missiles doesnt snipe very well. But so what? Everything in this game has its role. One thing isnt supose to be good at everything. Missiles are good in all areas except sniping. To make missiles good in sniping too, would just put things out of balance. 3. If you want to be a sniper, train gunnery and get a Rohk and outsnipe everyone! 4. Please dont try to fix something thats not broken. As i said in #2, everything in eve has its role. Its place and its use. So if you want to fly raven and missiles go do missions, ratt, or even pvp in small gangs. You will be uber in doing that. 5. First that comes to my mind when reading about raven / missile ppl wanting their stuff to do better in new areas is that you have it too easy. Your not used to work for your stuff to do well. Im flying a minnie, and you will out damage and out tank me any day in your raven with torps. That is if you actually use your brain to set it up right. But hey, im not whining. 1. if the target has aspect change then the gun has a chance to hit it due to the magic bullet effect. Missiles still cant even get to the target and the opertunity for a hit is lost. 2. I am sorry guess since missiles are PVE only all GUNS should be BANNED from entering complexes and mission areas. Since you are saying it is ok for missiles to be reduced to the role of PVE. 3. you said it. I just dont want to have too go guns but i am being given no choice. 4. lets draw the lines and make sure guns cant be used in PVE then ill be glad to allow that missiles be useless in PVP. 5. we just want SOME equal footing. that is all
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.20 20:55:00 - [117] Originally by: Cadiz Edited by: Cadiz on 20/05/2007 05:41:15 Originally by: Lab Ratta Maybe look down the list a bit your ammo is called Tremor. It has same effect 20% range enhance and 60% more damage for no real negative. I was unaware that -75% tracking counted as "no real negative". And if you think that having your tracking chopped down by 3/4ths doesn't matter at 150 - 180km, you're dead bloody wrong. Well lets see if going up against a BS size target you have nothing to worry about since they can only make about 150m/s ..... yeah that is a real tracking nightmare isnt it
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Swarm R i s e	Posted - 2007.05.20 21:00:00 - [118] Best Thread Ever.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.20 21:01:00 - [119] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 20/05/2007 12:02:41 Quote: Missiles = lower DPS / allows better Tank Guns = higher DPS / restricts Tank somewhat? If these are the main qualifiers for each weapon system, the question is, does the more cap missiles allow for balance out the higher DPS guns put out? I was worried about this myself alot. So after calculating in quickfit i came to the conclusion that i would lose most of the fights in my raven. But i didnt want to believe this so i went to the testserver and fought against my mates tII blaster domi, nos domi,tII blaster mega, tII neutron blaster and dual cap injected hyperion. the funny thing was i won all the fights except the fight against the nos domi. in all other fights my mate capped out even with 2 injectors. so at the end i have to say missiles/vs turrets are extremely balanced, at least at close range. the better tank makes up for the slight less dps. I would almost bet you used T1 ammo. You defiantly did NOT use T2 Fury ammo. the -30% cap recharge is a nice slap in the face.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.05.20 21:26:00 - [120] Have you not realised yet? Caldari, missiles and shield tanking are for newbies and missions. If you want to fly something useful to PvP, then train ... something else. There's a few setups on a Raven where it does moderately well. There's a whole lot more where it doesn't. Switching damage types and midslots for ewar are rather nice. But ... so's actually being able to kill you target. Hey ho. I'm training Gallente. They're doing fairly well in the 'never actually having been nerfed' stakes.

Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2007.05.20 22:32:00 - [121] Edited by: Happster on 20/05/2007 22:33:36 Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Happster Edited by: Happster on 20/05/2007 01:33:06 You my friend seems to be forgetting a lot of stuff too ;) 1. You speak of your missiles not able to do sensible damage on very fast moving targets. Guess what. Guns doesnt either. This has to do with tracking and transversal velocity. The difference here between guns and missiles is guns doesnt hit at all, but your missiles actually do some damage. 2. Missiles doesnt snipe very well. But so what? Everything in this game has its role. One thing isnt supose to be good at everything. Missiles are good in all areas except sniping. To make missiles good in sniping too, would just put things out of balance. 3. If you want to be a sniper, train gunnery and get a Rohk and outsnipe everyone! 4. Please dont try to fix something thats not broken. As i said in #2, everything in eve has its role. Its place and its use. So if you want to fly raven and missiles go do missions, ratt, or even pvp in small gangs. You will be uber in doing that. 5. First that comes to my mind when reading about raven / missile ppl wanting their stuff to do better in new areas is that you have it too easy. Your not used to work for your stuff to do well. Im flying a minnie, and you will out damage and out tank me any day in your raven with torps. That is if you actually use your brain to set it up right. But hey, im not whining. 1. if the target has aspect change then the gun has a chance to hit it due to the magic bullet effect. Missiles still cant even get to the target and the opertunity for a hit is lost. 2. I am sorry guess since missiles are PVE only all GUNS should be BANNED from entering complexes and mission areas. Since you are saying it is ok for missiles to be reduced to the role of PVE. 3. you said it. I just dont want to have too go guns but i am being given no choice. 4. lets draw the lines and make sure guns cant be used in PVE then ill be glad to allow that missiles be useless in PVP. 5. we just want SOME equal footing. that is all 1. You really have not played with guns, have you? Your missiles have a lot bigger chanse of hitting target and do damage to moving targets then any gun has. If i sit with 1400 guns on a pest and you orbit me at 5km at a speed of 20 m/s, i will never ever hit you. You with your missiles will! Go play with the tracking guyd so you get some clue about how it is to play with guns. 2. Missiles doesnt snipe very well because they have so freaking many other things going for them. 3. Yes i said it. Go train up gunnery if you want to snipe. No shame in that. 4. NC as that comment is stupid 5. You dont want equal at all. As missiles has no range obsticle, you allways hit targets, you can choose what damage you want to do, your missiles doesnt use cap, you out damage most guns. Guns on the other hand has optimall range, and falloff. Outside that range they cant hit anything. Not even with magic ;) Some guns use caps, all guns has restricted damage dealings. No gun can choose what damage type to deal like a missile. We cant hit very fast targets at all. You really dont see it do you? That your missiles has way more advantages then any gun has. There are only 1 backdraw with missiles. Their bad for sniping. So what? 1 weapon shouldnt rule everyone else. You can atleast try to look objective and professional when yelling get things in balance. Your actually yelling get things out of balance now. If you had your way everyone would swop to fly raven.....yay...what a happy world. 6. Train up guns. Just do it. so you atleast know what your talking about.
Dark Kavar Caldari Aionios Diadochi The Makhai	Posted - 2007.05.21 00:19:00 - [122] I've tried guns and missiles for pvp and pve, and other than lvl 4 missions, I found guns to be alot more useful than missiles. Kind of like the Triforce in Zelda, only not quite as potent.
Shaemell Buttleson Darwin With Attitude	Posted - 2007.05.21 00:43:00 - [123] Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Lab Ratta This was a nice try but what you also forget is the simple fact guns fire faster than missiles....about 2 to 1.....so then using your numbers you see how gimped missile damage is. Damage per second takes rate of fire into account. Its a average value. So its accurate. His graph shows exactly how low dps turrets have at range. I would be curious to see how a ship with 8 guns firing at twice the speed of the 6 missile launchers would put out less damage. Cause i really think if missile boats were the powerhouse he described why would everyone want to pvp in gun-ships? Using caldari missile boats and minmatar gunships in PVP i beg to differ. I really wish the ROF on my Tempest was the same as my Raven with the same amount of Gyros and BCU's. However if they were both 200km from each other the raven would be hit possibly from 4 salvos befor it's missiles hit the pest. But (and this is the clincher for me), no way could a Tempest setup so it hits hard and often from 200km is going tank like the Raven can. Thats why I like using the Missile boats in PVP. They tank really well and providing you are in range every missile you fire hits. There are probably more caldari/missile pilots engaging in PVP than you realise. Your signature was inappropriate, email [email protected] to find out why (don't forget to include a link to it) -Sahwoolo
Spacer John	Posted - 2007.05.21 00:49:00 - [124] ---"1. Missiles has its role as i said in the previouse post of mine. Plex, Ratting, Missions, and small gang pvp. And if you think your missiles do less dps then guns, you have your facts wrong. If you compare it to the blasterthrone, maybe it does. But so does everyone else. Do a check vs the AC's. You will find missiles on top in that comparation. 2. Raven has the abillity to fit both tank and gank. That my friend is one of the few ships in eve that can do that well. 3. DPS for guns are calculated in perfect enviroment. Something you never see on the battlefield. The true dps will allways be worse. 4. We dont want a ship that is a i win button. Seems you do ;) 5. Wrecking shots is like 1 out of 1k shots. So its far from a common hit. As i said. You will come on top of any minmatar BS with a rave. In both tank and gank. Raven has a role in all places in eve, except for in a sniper fleet. Get over it. You will not get it all."--- I specifically said that I had little experience with guns and most of my post was looking for more information. Who is asking for an "I win" button? Claiming I did just makes you look like a jackass. Guns do less damage than missiles? What FACTS did I claim I had? All I said is that was what I percieved as the the general consesus on the forums. I also wasn't sure how gun DPS was calculated. According to you the DPS is calculated as if in perfect conditions, the second part of my question was if anyone did calculations to determine the average "worse" DPS figure on an actual battlefield. I don't really consider PVE as a good role for missiles considering I don't enjoy running missions much and I thought this was a PVP argument. I do however enjoy small gang warfare. If the missile role is small gang warfare, then that means they do it better than other weapon systems. In this case I'm happy with missiles and don't feel that they need a boost. You make the Raven sound like the king of PVP with its "Gank AND Tank" ability. If this is the case I'll have to read up on more Raven PVP setups to take advantage of this.
Spacer John	Posted - 2007.05.21 00:52:00 - [125] ---"No. It means that missiles need something to hold their target, mobile/interdictor bubble or tackler and have in exchange considerably higher range dps than other weapons. And this is exactly the tactic corps like Burn Eden are using. A dictor and a few "sniper" ravens."--- Ah ok, this is actually what I was wondering, thanks. I guess bubbling a gate and sitting out at 80km would be a nice tactic for a small gang with a Raven, especially if the intys had TPs.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.21 00:56:00 - [126] Originally by: Spacer John ---"1. Missiles has its role as i said in the previouse post of mine. Plex, Ratting, Missions, and small gang pvp. And if you think your missiles do less dps then guns, you have your facts wrong. If you compare it to the blasterthrone, maybe it does. But so does everyone else. Do a check vs the AC's. You will find missiles on top in that comparation. 2. Raven has the abillity to fit both tank and gank. That my friend is one of the few ships in eve that can do that well. 3. DPS for guns are calculated in perfect enviroment. Something you never see on the battlefield. The true dps will allways be worse. 4. We dont want a ship that is a i win button. Seems you do ;) 5. Wrecking shots is like 1 out of 1k shots. So its far from a common hit. As i said. You will come on top of any minmatar BS with a rave. In both tank and gank. Raven has a role in all places in eve, except for in a sniper fleet. Get over it. You will not get it all."--- I specifically said that I had little experience with guns and most of my post was looking for more information. Who is asking for an "I win" button? Claiming I did just makes you look like a jackass. Guns do less damage than missiles? What FACTS did I claim I had? All I said is that was what I percieved as the the general consesus on the forums. I also wasn't sure how gun DPS was calculated. According to you the DPS is calculated as if in perfect conditions, the second part of my question was if anyone did calculations to determine the average "worse" DPS figure on an actual battlefield. I don't really consider PVE as a good role for missiles considering I don't enjoy running missions much and I thought this was a PVP argument. I do however enjoy small gang warfare. If the missile role is small gang warfare, then that means they do it better than other weapon systems. In this case I'm happy with missiles and don't feel that they need a boost. You make the Raven sound like the king of PVP with its "Gank AND Tank" ability. If this is the case I'll have to read up on more Raven PVP setups to take advantage of this. Main problem I cant seem to get across to all you people is that your view that missiles are for plexing and missions go learn guns for pvp is not how it should be. Guy right there toward end of page 4 even admits that he does missions with a gun-ship and then can turn around and go pvp also. But all i get from you gun-bunnies is go learn guns for pvp. If that is how it is suppose to be then all you gun-bunnies should HAVE to put in the 10 million + SP to bring up missiles.
Spacer John	Posted - 2007.05.21 01:00:00 - [127] ---"I was worried about this myself alot. So after calculating in quickfit i came to the conclusion that i would lose most of the fights in my raven. But i didnt want to believe this so i went to the testserver and fought against my mates tII blaster domi, nos domi,tII blaster mega, tII neutron blaster and dual cap injected hyperion. the funny thing was i won all the fights except the fight against the nos domi. in all other fights my mate capped out even with 2 injectors. so at the end i have to say missiles/vs turrets are extremely balanced, at least at close range. the better tank makes up for the slight less dps."--- OK thanks, thats good info to have. Sounds like missiles are fairly balanced not counting fleet battles.
FMarshal Montgomery Caldari Mean Anglo-Danes	Posted - 2007.05.21 01:03:00 - [128] hmmm this is like saying whats better for your food, salt or pepper.... missiles obviously arent meant for great range otherwise ccp would let them be fired at speed and over longer distances. id heard that ccp nerfed missiles ages ago because they were TOO powerful. but hey if u wanna snipe me from 200km, then ill just warp in closer and give u full broadside from 15km then lets see u call them useless than pal! My lowest Faction standing is with......Caldari, bugger it 'The Forge' is full of noobs!! Pirates are pussies in Real Life - FACT!
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.21 01:08:00 - [129] Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Lab Ratta This was a nice try but what you also forget is the simple fact guns fire faster than missiles....about 2 to 1.....so then using your numbers you see how gimped missile damage is. Damage per second takes rate of fire into account. Its a average value. So its accurate. His graph shows exactly how low dps turrets have at range. I would be curious to see how a ship with 8 guns firing at twice the speed of the 6 missile launchers would put out less damage. Cause i really think if missile boats were the powerhouse he described why would everyone want to pvp in gun-ships? Using caldari missile boats and minmatar gunships in PVP i beg to differ. I really wish the ROF on my Tempest was the same as my Raven with the same amount of Gyros and BCU's. However if they were both 200km from each other the raven would be hit possibly from 4 salvos befor it's missiles hit the pest. But (and this is the clincher for me), no way could a Tempest setup so it hits hard and often from 200km is going tank like the Raven can. Thats why I like using the Missile boats in PVP. They tank really well and providing you are in range every missile you fire hits. There are probably more caldari/missile pilots engaging in PVP than you realise. Your RoF compare for minmatar guns vs caldari missiles doesnt stand Crusie missile 2 has base RoF of 17.5 and 800mm Large Artillery has base RoF of 7.88 the other Large Minmatar guns were even faster. So what were you trying to say when you said you wish that your guns had the RoF from your Raven?
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.21 01:33:00 - [130] guy was comparing the Domi to a Raven in DPS earlier in the thread and said a Raven could out DPS a Domi. I think he forgot that a Domi can fit 6 GUNS to go along with his drones and that will just beat the pants off a Raven for pure DPS Just think jump in and see a raven sitting there at 50km off gate. Drop 5 Wardens and MWD over to the Raven open up with your 6 blasters (or 4 blasters with 2 heavy NOS to kill any tank you want to) that Raven will die so fast it is likely that the Domi will still have shields left.

murder one Gallente Death of Virtue Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.05.21 02:14:00 - [131] I was going to take apart the OP's arguments point by point and refute each of his ideas with well written eloquent prose. But after reading the whole thread, I've concluded that the OP is in fact either a troll, or just extremely stupid and has no practical PVP experience what so ever. Because I said so...
Jikx Everproud ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.21 02:30:00 - [132] What they need is a second set of missiles that are 25% faster, and have 25% longer range, but with a 25% ROF nerf. Either that, or have another Hi slot module called "Missile fueling optimization", which does the same as above for all missile launchers when active. Or even variations like a high slot module called "Missile burners optimization", which gives 50% extra speed, but 50% less range. Or.. maybe just have rigs :o --- I'm doing my part too!
Ryysa Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.21 03:21:00 - [133] Originally by: Lab Ratta Your RoF compare for minmatar guns vs caldari missiles doesnt stand Crusie missile 2 has base RoF of 17.5 and 800mm Large Artillery has base RoF of 7.88 the other Large Minmatar guns were even faster. I wonder how you can fail so hard at this game. 800mm Repeating Artilleries are despite their name AUTOCANNONS, they have an efficient operating range of about 20km. Please do check the ROF on the 1400 Howitzer Artillery, which is the real large artillery weapon... EW Guide - KB Tool - PVP Event
Blitzkrieg Legion Du Lys GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.21 03:47:00 - [134] I am not going to debate about a possible increase of dps/ rof for missile ships but a missile velocity increase needs to be adjusted. Nowadays, most inties fly around 8 to 10k m/s. Even a nighthawk or cerebus can't touch such a tackler due to slower missiles speed. Just simple logic: If an interceptor can pass the 10k m/s, by simple law of physics, a missile ( much much smaller) shld also be able to reach it!
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.05.21 03:56:00 - [135] Originally by: Blitzkrieg I am not going to debate about a possible increase of dps/ rof for missile ships but a missile velocity increase needs to be adjusted. Nowadays, most inties fly around 8 to 10k m/s. Even a nighthawk or cerebus can't touch such a tackler due to slower missiles speed. Just simple logic: If an interceptor can pass the 10k m/s, by simple law of physics, a missile ( much much smaller) shld also be able to reach it! Nope. The Space Shuttle can go mach 25+. A Sidewinder (AIM-9X) can go around mach 3. You lose at analogies. Because I said so...
DiuxDium Free Mercenaries Union	Posted - 2007.05.21 04:03:00 - [136] Originally by: Lab Ratta guy was comparing the Domi to a Raven in DPS earlier in the thread and said a Raven could out DPS a Domi. I think he forgot that a Domi can fit 6 GUNS to go along with his drones and that will just beat the pants off a Raven for pure DPS Just think jump in and see a raven sitting there at 50km off gate. Drop 5 Wardens and MWD over to the Raven open up with your 6 blasters (or 4 blasters with 2 heavy NOS to kill any tank you want to) that Raven will die so fast it is likely that the Domi will still have shields left. He'll be dead before he makes the 50km trek. Also if the idiot uses Sentry drones instead of Heavy II's, he shouldn't be flying a domi. 99% of raven setups have 2x H Nos as well (fyi). Do you actually play Eve? ------------- The above user should never be taken seriously.
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2007.05.21 04:33:00 - [137] Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Lab Ratta This was a nice try but what you also forget is the simple fact guns fire faster than missiles....about 2 to 1.....so then using your numbers you see how gimped missile damage is. Damage per second takes rate of fire into account. Its a average value. So its accurate. His graph shows exactly how low dps turrets have at range. I would be curious to see how a ship with 8 guns firing at twice the speed of the 6 missile launchers would put out less damage. Cause i really think if missile boats were the powerhouse he described why would everyone want to pvp in gun-ships? Using caldari missile boats and minmatar gunships in PVP i beg to differ. I really wish the ROF on my Tempest was the same as my Raven with the same amount of Gyros and BCU's. However if they were both 200km from each other the raven would be hit possibly from 4 salvos befor it's missiles hit the pest. But (and this is the clincher for me), no way could a Tempest setup so it hits hard and often from 200km is going tank like the Raven can. Thats why I like using the Missile boats in PVP. They tank really well and providing you are in range every missile you fire hits. There are probably more caldari/missile pilots engaging in PVP than you realise. Your RoF compare for minmatar guns vs caldari missiles doesnt stand Crusie missile 2 has base RoF of 17.5 and 800mm Large Artillery has base RoF of 7.88 the other Large Minmatar guns were even faster. So what were you trying to say when you said you wish that your guns had the RoF from your Raven? Those guns has a very good ROF. But you put them on a ship and try to snipe with them. You wont hit anything with them abowe 50km. And that is with falloff rigs ;)
Sionide Axe Gang	Posted - 2007.05.21 04:58:00 - [138] Another clueless OP post. All the devs fly gun ships? Hmm...funny, since I recall in one of the PvP tournies when it was Devs vs Content, Lemonde (the dev that runs the tournament) flew a Raven, but no go on with your worthless argument. Missile ships have their place as do gun ships. There are pros and cons for both, for missiles namely that they never miss the target if the ship is lock range and missile velocity range (and that the target ship isn't too fast to outrun the missile or explosion velocity). They take no cap to run, can choose 1 type of damage if they want to do max possible damage, and they are still effective even dampened or jammped (fofs), blah blah. Nothing new and other people in this thread and others like it have posted all this before. It's just obvious you have little idea what you are talking about and just ran to the forums crying bloody murder, learn2play.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.21 07:02:00 - [139] Edited by: Aramendel on 21/05/2007 07:01:51 Originally by: murder one Nope. The Space Shuttle can go mach 25+. A Sidewinder (AIM-9X) can go around mach 3. You lose at analogies. Erm...no. A shuttle can reach mach 25, yes. However this is IN SPACE! A Sidewinder - which is hardly the fastest missile around - does this in the atmosphere. In general missiles always are able to achieve faster speed than manned craft because their engine<->payload relation can be far higher and they can afford accellerations which would reduce any passengers to red paste. But that is for the reality. Eve is first and farmost a game. If you look at the other weapons in detail you find that they are highly unrealistic as well - lasers for example do not suddenly stop working after a range of x.
Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.21 09:47:00 - [140] Edited by: Neuromandis on 21/05/2007 09:45:38 Originally by: Gabriel Karade I think missiles have lost too far too much of their distinctness over the last couple of years, being gradually turned into the 'fourth turret'. It's a real shame, because you used to see them regularly used as secondary weapons resulting in more varied setups. These days everyone just simply fits the maximum number of turrets, and then slaps nosferatu in the 'spare' slots. That, and what a guy said earlier (i cannot find the post to quote, sory) about droneships needing less highslots because drones are weapons as well as a few more concerns led to the thread below... An idea for the rebalancing of drones and missiles Please don't turn it into a flamefest as well

Shaemell Buttleson Darwin With Attitude	Posted - 2007.05.21 12:04:00 - [141] Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Lab Ratta This was a nice try but what you also forget is the simple fact guns fire faster than missiles....about 2 to 1.....so then using your numbers you see how gimped missile damage is. Damage per second takes rate of fire into account. Its a average value. So its accurate. His graph shows exactly how low dps turrets have at range. I would be curious to see how a ship with 8 guns firing at twice the speed of the 6 missile launchers would put out less damage. Cause i really think if missile boats were the powerhouse he described why would everyone want to pvp in gun-ships? Using caldari missile boats and minmatar gunships in PVP i beg to differ. I really wish the ROF on my Tempest was the same as my Raven with the same amount of Gyros and BCU's. However if they were both 200km from each other the raven would be hit possibly from 4 salvos befor it's missiles hit the pest. But (and this is the clincher for me), no way could a Tempest setup so it hits hard and often from 200km is going tank like the Raven can. Thats why I like using the Missile boats in PVP. They tank really well and providing you are in range every missile you fire hits. There are probably more caldari/missile pilots engaging in PVP than you realise. Your RoF compare for minmatar guns vs caldari missiles doesnt stand Crusie missile 2 has base RoF of 17.5 and 800mm Large Artillery has base RoF of 7.88 the other Large Minmatar guns were even faster. So what were you trying to say when you said you wish that your guns had the RoF from your Raven? Yes I am saying that! I'd also love to have Arties that have the same ROF as AC's. Your signature was inappropriate, email [email protected] to find out why (don't forget to include a link to it) -Sahwoolo
Maeltstome Minmatar Caldari Navy Raiders	Posted - 2007.05.21 12:24:00 - [142] Originally by: Lab Ratta Edited by: Lab Ratta on 19/05/2007 10:26:06 Originally by: Hank Showbo Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Montero Gun damage does indeed vary with range, as longer ranged ammo does less damage. did you even read my post Iron charge vs Spike. Spike get a 20% boost to range and a 60% boost in Damage. What trade off is that????????? Spike also gives a penalty of 0.25 tracking, so tracking is reduced by 75% too. yes but if you are shooting from 250km how fast would the target need to move to hurt your tracking? Much faster than a Battleship can ever dream of going. Not that fast considering that yourn tracking is nerfed by -75% when using long range T2 ammo. Maybe you should try using guns ?
Rashmika Clavain Gallente Revelation Space	Posted - 2007.05.21 12:29:00 - [143] Hmmm I think someone has their wires crossed I don't think I've seen any tech3 battleships though
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.05.21 12:54:00 - [144] Looking at this thread, I couldn't be bothered reading through the mental sewage that is surely within it, but on the whole point of missiles loosing out to guns. Can the Minmatar please have a ship that is primarily a missile boat? I don't care if its a frigate, cruiser, BC, BS, Even a destroyer. I just want a minmatar missile boat. I am sure the amarr and gallente would like a dedicated missile boat too.
THEDON1 Chaos Reborn	Posted - 2007.05.21 12:59:00 - [145] yer im a caldari char and when the frst nerf came in for missiles i stoped training them as imo they suck , i trained for guns and they rock
Tom Gunn Caldari North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.05.21 13:53:00 - [146] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 20/05/2007 10:25:42 Originally by: Spacer John So missiles do good dps vs guns, but only at a range where missiles are almost useless due to travel time? No. It means that missiles need something to hold their target, mobile/interdictor bubble or tackler and have in exchange considerably higher range dps than other weapons. And this is exactly the tactic corps like Burn Eden are using. A dictor and a few "sniper" ravens. And, unless you are talking about big fleet battles or popping shuttles you need a tackling strategy for gun-snipers as well because they won't kill much otherwise. Regarding fleet ops - the problem there is, as said a few times already, the dps. Let's say they boost the missile speed so much that they are viable in big fleet ops. But there are two problem there: - the raven does 450 dps with t1 cruises & 3 damage mods - the mega does 350 dps with t2 ammo and 3 damage mods - the raven does only have to fit 2 sensor boosters to get sniper ranges - the mega has to fit 2 SB and 3 tracking comps Who in his right mind would fly a mega then? I agree completely, My solution to this would be to double the velocity of T2 precision missiles without any reduction in flight time (its already half of T1), and also add a 10% increase in velocity 10% reduction in flight time to BCS units (or alternatively add another module that just increases missile/torp velocity). The DPS figures would then be 350 vs 404 (as T2 cruise missiles do less dps than T1). However, even at a 180km engagment range it would still take around 10sec for a raven's missiles to hit their target, compared to the mega which will of had a few shots.
Ashaz	Posted - 2007.05.21 14:13:00 - [147] Edited by: Ashaz on 21/05/2007 14:15:39 Originally by: Lab Ratta This was a nice try but what you also forget is the simple fact guns fire faster than missiles....about 2 to 1.....so then using your numbers you see how gimped missile damage is. Ok. let me _try_ to make it clearer for you. it says DPS. D P S. That translates to Damage Per Second. rate of fire has already been factored in. Quote: I would be curious to see how a ship with 8 guns firing at twice the speed of the 6 missile launchers would put out less damage. cause the missiles do a heck of alot more dammage per hit. I have a million sp in gunnery. my small railguns do about 40 per hit. And that's T2 rails with T2 ammo. I have 75000 in missiles. My light missiles do 120 per hit. You want a viable pvp boat? Try a drake.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.21 14:29:00 - [148] Granted that missiles are close to useless in long range combat, ever race has a gunboat to use for long range encounters. I dont fly my Abaddon to kill people at 10-20km, I use it to kill people from 150-180km+ Missile ships are ment for closer range. You can spam javalin torps 200km+ with rigs, but whats to stop someone warping off then back in again? Not practical at long range. Thats the issue you need to look at first. I dont complain that my drones dont hit at 250km, because I dont expect them to. Missiles in pvp are not useless. My patented Shield Tanked Launcher Curse has stayed alive purely because of its t2 launchers. But then again, I know where and when a certain ship is needed and I use the apporitate one then, rather than moan about ccp changing game mechanics to suit the ship I am using. And before you talk about SP invested in missiles, I have invested in t2 Torps, T2 Curse, T2 Heavy etc etc etc. Yet I dont moan on the forums - I adapt -- Billion Isk Mission
Tommy Vercetti Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.21 14:48:00 - [149] Originally by: Lab Ratta Do try to get your facts straight once in a while. You have no clue mate. Have you ever shot a long range turret before? Me thinks you haven't judging from some of the drivel you've posted here. In fact I'm thinking your someones alt posting here for laughs. Surely you aren't serious.
Tom Gunn Caldari North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.05.21 14:57:00 - [150] The problem with missile boats is that there isn't a missile boats suited for long range and there isn't one suited for close range. I can 'adapt' my hybrid ships and fit them with blasters or rails for close or long range. I can 'adapt' my projectile ships and fit them with autocannons or artillary for close or long range. I can 'adapt' my laser ships the same way. What I can not do, is adapt my 'missile' skills to be close to effective as a ship equipped in a similar role. A blasterthron/dominix/armageddon is always going to be preferred over a raven at close range because their dps is far greater. A sniperthron/tempest/rokh is much better at long range because they don't have to wait 20 seconds to hit their target following a lock. The 'midslot' tank further complicates matters at close range for reasons anyone's whos read this far is aware of. The tank soon disappears when you fit an MWD/Cap Injector - add a scram and your 3 midslots don't leave a whole lotta room. In PvP, missile ships have no real 'role' that they are on par with gunnery boats (Which as much as the OP is pulling figures out of her hat, is the point they are making - and a valid one). At low skill points, i'd agree that the missile ships have a bonus when it comes to NPCering, but once you reach T2 guns & heavy drones in a mega, you can chew up rats easily enough as well.

El'essar Viocragh Minmatar FSK23	Posted - 2007.05.21 15:08:00 - [151] I laughed. Regarding the problem about having to skill guns for pvp (assuming you skilled missiles for pve so far) - there is an easy answer. Just play minmatar, that way you will need drones, missiles and guns for pve AND pvp. And you are not only limited to shield tanking, because you will need to skill shield, armor and navigation for tanking too. Here you go, have fun.
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2007.05.21 15:12:00 - [152] Originally by: El'essar Viocragh I laughed. Regarding the problem about having to skill guns for pvp (assuming you skilled missiles for pve so far) - there is an easy answer. Just play minmatar, that way you will need drones, missiles and guns for pve AND pvp. And you are not only limited to shield tanking, because you will need to skill shield, armor and navigation for tanking too. Here you go, have fun. You make no point. Minimatar have a huge variety of ships, of course you need a huge amount of skill to fly them all well (you don't need great armour or missile skills to fly a vagabond - you don't need shield skills or gunnery to fly a typhoon). I've 3x the points in hybrids than I do in missiles for a reason - guns > missiles.
El'essar Viocragh Minmatar FSK23	Posted - 2007.05.21 15:31:00 - [153] <irony></irony> <irony></irony> <irony></irony> <irony></irony> Insert as you think they are appropriate. Thank you.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.05.21 15:40:00 - [154] Edited by: madaluap on 21/05/2007 15:38:06 Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth Originally by: El'essar Viocragh I laughed. Regarding the problem about having to skill guns for pvp (assuming you skilled missiles for pve so far) - there is an easy answer. Just play minmatar, that way you will need drones, missiles and guns for pve AND pvp. And you are not only limited to shield tanking, because you will need to skill shield, armor and navigation for tanking too. Here you go, have fun. You make no point. Minimatar have a huge variety of ships, of course you need a huge amount of skill to fly them all well (you don't need great armour or missile skills to fly a vagabond - you don't need shield skills or gunnery to fly a typhoon). I've 3x the points in hybrids than I do in missiles for a reason - guns > missiles. Missiles are different, not better. The op is a clueless troll. Adding more words would be more than this thread deserves. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Bournie Caldari Initech Corporation Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels	Posted - 2007.05.21 15:40:00 - [155] Originally by: Max Hardcase If there is one bit I have to agree with is that the delayed damage is a tad extreme. Double missile speed, halve flight time. I think this is an excellent suggestion
Leikung	Posted - 2007.05.23 00:38:00 - [156] Funny I cant stand gunships, only do long range missle bombardment. I kill them, they dont hit me, Im happy Dont know aobut you


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