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Gun-ships dominate the universe: Missile-boats on verge of extinction

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Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:27:00 - [31] Edited by: Lab Ratta on 19/05/2007 10:26:06 Originally by: Hank Showbo Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Montero Gun damage does indeed vary with range, as longer ranged ammo does less damage. did you even read my post Iron charge vs Spike. Spike get a 20% boost to range and a 60% boost in Damage. What trade off is that????????? Spike also gives a penalty of 0.25 tracking, so tracking is reduced by 75% too. yes but if you are shooting from 250km how fast would the target need to move to hurt your tracking? Much faster than a Battleship can ever dream of going.
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:32:00 - [32] I actually tried doing some charts for myown use comparing missiles and they didn't get nerfed - they got balanced... now each missile has its uses - unfortunately its still not balanced completely but much better than before. Most of the nerf at missiles was T2 missiles and guns took about the same nerf as well... Missiles do go too slow though... make them fly at half the duration for double the speed. Should at least help a little in ranged combat. And torpedoes could really need the boost - using them is more or less a guarantee never to hit anything moderately fast - I'm a nice guy!! and OMG I love Team Tuxford for the speedbalancing...
Ryo Jang Central Defiance Terror In The System	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:32:00 - [33] Originally by: Lab Ratta Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects. ahahahahahaha!!! first time ive ever heard anyone complain about missiles damage types. didnt you realise you can PICK which damage type you want to use? ie, tailor your damage output to which ever tank you are facing? what are us turret types supposed to do except wail away against a potentially unbreakable tank?
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:39:00 - [34] Originally by: Ryo Jang Originally by: Lab Ratta Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects. ahahahahahaha!!! first time ive ever heard anyone complain about missiles damage types. didnt you realise you can PICK which damage type you want to use? ie, tailor your damage output to which ever tank you are facing? what are us turret types supposed to do except wail away against a potentially unbreakable tank? Bah they thought of everything for you they gave us missiles that do more damage and fly 77% less distance while giving you 20% rang and 60% damage at the same time. Oh and as for the unbreakable tank....-30% to cap recharge FTW
Yurii Chan	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:46:00 - [35] Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Ryo Jang Originally by: Lab Ratta Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects. ahahahahahaha!!! first time ive ever heard anyone complain about missiles damage types. didnt you realise you can PICK which damage type you want to use? ie, tailor your damage output to which ever tank you are facing? what are us turret types supposed to do except wail away against a potentially unbreakable tank? Bah they thought of everything for you they gave us missiles that do more damage and fly 77% less distance while giving you 20% rang and 60% damage at the same time. Oh and as for the unbreakable tank....-30% to cap recharge FTW ok, since you seem to lack the basic logic to figure things out let me try and argue like you OMFG, Spike ammo deals 40% less dmg than antimatter! 40%!!!!!!! and all we get is a lousy 60% range bonus!!!! like OMfG wTf BalANceE!!!! stop comparing the 2, they're different weapon systems. you want to hit @ 240km? fit for it and deal with the dmg delay or train for a rokh. You're tired of getting hit from 240km for dmg that cant even break a noob tank? warp out. You want to kill the bugger? look to point 1 and have the lamest duel ever (2 battleship slugging it out @ 240km borefest ftw) now please, start playing the game and stop spewing your ignorance on the boards. OR come up with a better argument. ----
Marquis Dean Demise and Vestige 9th Fleet	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:48:00 - [36] This thread made me chuckle. --- Originally by: korrey Marquis I have to admit, without you there wouldn't be much laughter in these forums.
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:49:00 - [37] Edited by: Max Hardcase on 19/05/2007 10:46:47 Originally by: Montero Originally by: Max Hardcase If there is one bit I have to agree with is that the delayed damage is a tad extreme. Double missile speed, halve flight time. Go and look up the patch notes for Cold War ;) I would but I'm lazy, you want me to read something; you give me the linkee
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:49:00 - [38] Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Yurii Chan Originally by: Lab Ratta so far all the post are avoiding the facts. so I guess this will just get the usually gun-bunnies hoping that noone will read it and nerf this overpowering gun slant that is taking over the game. sorry we're all sitting here laughing our asses off at some of your 'facts'. frankly i dont know wtf you're asking or wanting. you want your missiles to hit further? use T1.. they go quite far last i checked. Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects. While I hate feeding the troll, you hinting at missiles doing just one damage type being a BAD thing just makes you even more clueless than the rest of your arguments. Besides, did it ever occur to you that fleet combat and shuttle sniping is far from the be-all end-all of PvP? Even though I would not mind a missile velocity increase, they DO work in small gang fights at <30km ranges... - Thank you SkyFlyer! There is no 'n' in turret
Yurii Chan	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:50:00 - [39] Originally by: Marquis Dean This thread made me chuckle. god you took long enough to get here. ffs flame out this troll!!!!!
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:57:00 - [40] Missiles still have silly speed compared to the sips they're being shot @. Interceptors outrunning light missiles

Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:02:00 - [41] Originally by: Yurii Chan Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Ryo Jang Originally by: Lab Ratta Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects. ahahahahahaha!!! first time ive ever heard anyone complain about missiles damage types. didnt you realise you can PICK which damage type you want to use? ie, tailor your damage output to which ever tank you are facing? what are us turret types supposed to do except wail away against a potentially unbreakable tank? Bah they thought of everything for you they gave us missiles that do more damage and fly 77% less distance while giving you 20% rang and 60% damage at the same time. Oh and as for the unbreakable tank....-30% to cap recharge FTW ok, since you seem to lack the basic logic to figure things out let me try and argue like you OMFG, Spike ammo deals 40% less dmg than antimatter! 40%!!!!!!! and all we get is a lousy 60% range bonus!!!! like OMfG wTf BalANceE!!!! stop comparing the 2, they're different weapon systems. you want to hit @ 240km? fit for it and deal with the dmg delay or train for a rokh. You're tired of getting hit from 240km for dmg that cant even break a noob tank? warp out. You want to kill the bugger? look to point 1 and have the lamest duel ever (2 battleship slugging it out @ 240km borefest ftw) now please, start playing the game and stop spewing your ignorance on the boards. OR come up with a better argument. ---- Do try to get your facts straight once in a while. This comparison you did is like apples and oranges but i will use your lopsided choices. Antimatter Vs Spike is a 130% increase in range I think its 50% less damage 28+20 for antimatter(guessing) vs the 16+16 for spike. But since you brought up amtimatter. Antimatter Vs Iron 28+20 vs 12+8 that is 69% damage reduction for that extra 110% range where 28+20 vs 16+16 is a 33% damage reduction for an extra 130% range numbers speak loudly this this should not have been done.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:05:00 - [42] Originally by: Max Hardcase Missiles still have silly speed compared to the sips they're being shot @. Interceptors outrunning light missiles I agree no ship should be able to go faster than a missile.
Car Wars adeptus gattacus Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:19:00 - [43] Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Max Hardcase Missiles still have silly speed compared to the sips they're being shot @. Interceptors outrunning light missiles I agree no ship should be able to go faster than a missile. I agree you should get a titan, with a missile based doomsday that need to target all its victims first. get a clue dude, go play wow
NOObbody Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:21:00 - [44] Omg i shot a Titan with TOERPEDoo and it didnt explode! WTF! --- I was sworn to absolute secrecy!
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:22:00 - [45] To the OP, I suggest you use this excel graph to become more familiar with how things actually work in Eve: Naughty Boys excel spreadsheet You can play with range and all sorts of things. Guns sucks at medium range compared to missiles when counting in dps. Missiles lack alpha strike, sure, but their dps is much higher than railguns and artillery for example. See for yourself. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:28:00 - [46] I just want equal footing for a missile boat. why should it be that if you want to pvp you have to re-train completly into guns to be effective. Variety is the spice of life and if you have all your choices made for you it becomes dull and meaningless. I think someone that went all drone skills should have a fair chance at winning a battle against a missile boat or a gun-ship also. This isnt so much a anti-gun campaign as it is a thread that wants more variety and viable ones at that.
Sinder Ohm Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:32:00 - [47] OOOHHNNOOOS the people in teh noob help channel lied to me Originally by: Rawne Karrde PVP in EvE is consentual, you agree to it when you login. If you don't like it you're in the wrong game.
HEINZ ZERO PsyCorp INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:36:00 - [48] Edited by: HEINZ ZERO on 19/05/2007 11:36:47 ...guys here I have some DPS numbers (calculations made with beta23v5_kali excel damage calculator) All ships with 3 Damage Mods; Skills are Maxed; T2 long range Ammo for Turret users; T1 Ammo for Missile Ships; All turret ships have 2 tracking computers II (yeah thats not fair, the missile ship don¦t need this -> so they have 2!!! more slots for tanking or E-war) DPS @ Raven Rokh Maelstrom Abaddon 100km 450 321 380 465 150km 450 321 367 393 200km 450 321 104 0 250km 450 321 0 0 Raven with T2 cruise Launcher Rokh woth T2 425mm Railguns Maelstrom with T2 1400mm Arty Abaddon with T2 Megabeams
NOObbody Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:37:00 - [49] Originally by: Lab Ratta I think someone that went all drone skills should have a fair chance at winning a battle against a missile boat or a gun-ship also. . Oh right drone boats are gimped too, boost them already plz! --- I was sworn to absolute secrecy!
Kara Kaprica STK Scientific Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:39:00 - [50] Lab Ratta Your pulling your numbers out of your bottom. Missles are not worse than guns, nor are they better, they are DIFFERENT. You have an operational tradeoff of the way they work against guns so you have a CHOICE of using either guns or missles. If you dont think missles are good, use GUNS. Jesus. Boom Boom Boom.

Red Harvest	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:44:00 - [51] For something on the verge of extinction i have seen quite a lot of ravens doing the plexes/running missions or caracals and drakes in PvP lately.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:49:00 - [52] Originally by: HEINZ ZERO Edited by: HEINZ ZERO on 19/05/2007 11:38:03 ...guys here I have some DPS numbers (calculations made with beta23v5_kali excel damage calculator) All ships with 3 Damage Mods; Skills are Maxed; T2 long range Ammo for Turret users; T1 Ammo for Missile Ships; All turret ships have 2 tracking computers II (yeah thats not fair, the missile ship don¦t need this -> so they have 2!!! more slots for tanking or E-war) DPS @ Raven Rokh Maelstrom Abaddon 100km 450 321 380 465 150km 450 321 367 393 200km 450 321 104 0 250km 450 321 0 0 Raven with T2 cruise Launcher Rokh woth T2 425mm Railguns Maelstrom with T2 1400mm Arty Abaddon with T2 Megabeams This was a nice try but what you also forget is the simple fact guns fire faster than missiles....about 2 to 1.....so then using your numbers you see how gimped missile damage is.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:53:00 - [53] Originally by: Kara Kaprica Lab Ratta Your pulling your numbers out of your bottom. Missles are not worse than guns, nor are they better, they are DIFFERENT. You have an operational tradeoff of the way they work against guns so you have a CHOICE of using either guns or missles. If you dont think missles are good, use GUNS. Jesus. Listen to what you are saying. They are different. I like different but dont want to be gimped just because i want to fly a missile boat. Your right I have a choice right now be guns or be gimp. The choice i want is build a ship how i want to fight and have an equal chance that i can win a fight.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:54:00 - [54] Originally by: Lab Ratta This was a nice try but what you also forget is the simple fact guns fire faster than missiles....about 2 to 1.....so then using your numbers you see how gimped missile damage is. Damage per second takes rate of fire into account. Its a average value. So its accurate. His graph shows exactly how low dps turrets have at range. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 12:00:00 - [55] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Lab Ratta This was a nice try but what you also forget is the simple fact guns fire faster than missiles....about 2 to 1.....so then using your numbers you see how gimped missile damage is. Damage per second takes rate of fire into account. Its a average value. So its accurate. His graph shows exactly how low dps turrets have at range. I would be curious to see how a ship with 8 guns firing at twice the speed of the 6 missile launchers would put out less damage. Cause i really think if missile boats were the powerhouse he described why would everyone want to pvp in gun-ships?
vostok	Posted - 2007.05.19 12:03:00 - [56] Originally by: Lab Ratta I just want equal footing for a missile boat. why should it be that if you want to pvp you have to re-train completly into guns to be effective. Variety is the spice of life and if you have all your choices made for you it becomes dull and meaningless. I think someone that went all drone skills should have a fair chance at winning a battle against a missile boat or a gun-ship also. This isnt so much a anti-gun campaign as it is a thread that wants more variety and viable ones at that. ROFLMFAO omg this thread is priceless :D i cant believe you really believe what you are saying lab but anyways as far as ''why should it be that if you want to pvp you have to re-train completly into guns to be effective.'' is concerned, i dont know if you have been living under a rock or something but have you not heard people moaning constantly about how overpowered the raven and other missile boats are for PVE. some ships are better than others for different things, raven will never be the best pvp ship because of the shield tank and lack of EW anyway but its still one of the best mission runners going. then again for fleet battles raven is useful since you dont have any range you need to be at, (which btw matters a lot for turrets and in the middle of battle the time taken to change ammo is valuble). but anyways PLEASE STOP POSTING. you lose already!
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.05.19 12:05:00 - [57] Edited by: Max Hardcase on 19/05/2007 12:04:31 Originally by: Car Wars Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Max Hardcase Missiles still have silly speed compared to the sips they're being shot @. Interceptors outrunning light missiles I agree no ship should be able to go faster than a missile. I agree you should get a titan, with a missile based doomsday that need to target all its victims first. get a clue dude, go play wow Well all Missiles is a tad extreme, but light missiles or rockets, then certainly no. Keep in mind there still is the explosion speed damage reduction.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 12:08:00 - [58] Originally by: Max Hardcase Edited by: Max Hardcase on 19/05/2007 12:04:31 Originally by: Car Wars Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Max Hardcase Missiles still have silly speed compared to the sips they're being shot @. Interceptors outrunning light missiles I agree no ship should be able to go faster than a missile. I agree you should get a titan, with a missile based doomsday that need to target all its victims first. get a clue dude, go play wow Well all Missiles is a tad extreme, but light missiles or rockets, then certainly no. Keep in mind there still is the explosion speed damage reduction. Nice cross post troll
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.19 12:09:00 - [59] Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Lab Ratta This was a nice try but what you also forget is the simple fact guns fire faster than missiles....about 2 to 1.....so then using your numbers you see how gimped missile damage is. Damage per second takes rate of fire into account. Its a average value. So its accurate. His graph shows exactly how low dps turrets have at range. I would be curious to see how a ship with 8 guns firing at twice the speed of the 6 missile launchers would put out less damage. Cause i really think if missile boats were the powerhouse he described why would everyone want to pvp in gun-ships? Because guns have higher dps when you are close. Missiles have higher dps at range. Let me draw you a picture: sniper dps There you go. Now please admit that you are wrong. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Arakidias Murky Inc. Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.05.19 12:12:00 - [60] I'm a missile user myself. I can't even fit medium guns, so i'd love to see missile velocity increased. But if they don't nothing's broken, guns and missiles both have their uses.



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